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Posted to dev@ofbiz.apache.org by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com> on 2014/03/07 09:00:37 UTC
The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Hi All,
I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great opportunity
to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
communications via mailing lists.
I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find below a
small overview of starting times in different timezones:
LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
- California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
06:30:00PDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html>UTC-7
hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179> (U.S.A.
- New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
09:30:00EDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html>UTC-4
hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136> (United
Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
13:30:00GMT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
(Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
14:30:00CET<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html>UTC+1
hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
(Russia)Thursday,
13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html>UTC+4
hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438> (India
- Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
19:00:00IST<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html>UTC+5:30
hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
(Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
20:30:00ICT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html>UTC+7
hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22> (New
Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
02:30:00NZDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html>UTC+13
hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can always
more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
*Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: pierre.smits@orrtiz.com
<pi...@orrtiz.com>*
*Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
*Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
*Duration: * 2 hr.
*Notes: *
*Free Conference Call*
Conference Dial-in Number: +31 (0) 6 35205070 (Number in the Netherlands)
Participant Access Code: 779895#
<http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070>
When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by the
# key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and have
access to the touch tone commands listed below.
Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
I hope to see you there.
With regards
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
David,
Thank you for sharing your insights and viewpoints on the health and future
of OFBiz in that other thread in this ML.
Please join us tomorrow in the teleconference to discuss this and the
viewpoints of our other community members. It will surely be appreciated.
Regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 10:18 PM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Jacques,
>
> I know what I wrote and to whom. I see that you are also creating
> impressions by foregoing stuff that I also wrote and was included in the
> reply by Christian.
>
> Anyway, you raise interesting points, like:
> "the PMC is less open to new committers than before is because we fear
> that changes done in OFBiz will not be monitored enough"...
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Jacques,
I know what I wrote and to whom. I see that you are also creating
impressions by foregoing stuff that I also wrote and was included in the
reply by Christian.
Anyway, you raise interesting points, like:
"the PMC is less open to new committers than before is because we fear that
changes done in OFBiz will not be monitored enough"...
Regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.
>I am somewhat puzzled that you feel that holding an open discussion on the functioning of the project and its future is an initiative against the PMC.
I have this impression because initially this discussion was not open. Only because Christian opened it by accident the rest of the community was aware.
Reminders (to summarize):
Christian wrote
>Eh, my fault, I replied to ML which opened the hood.
You initially wrote:
>In fact, currently only 5 are somewhat active and of those 5 active members 3 are of the same company (hotwax). Given that the 5 PMC members are
also the 5 active committers it seems that working in the interest of the project (which as the ASF states should be 'community over code') isn't
happening that much any more. Only 1 is actively involved in participating in the community. And the others seem to be committed to achieve their own
agenda in stead of being committed to the project.
Some others, at least Al, share your belief on the PMC, Al wrote:
>This seems like a test of the Apache framework - does it provide for the long-term life of a project when it conflicts with the self-interests of
the PMC?
It seems to me that we should all try to understand the reasons which push the PMC to be very cautious with new comers.
I don't think exactly like Al, but unfortunately there is some truth in his belief. For me, the most important reason the PMC is less open to new
committers than before is because we fear that changes done in OFBiz will not be monitored enough. This comes from past experience and also because
OFBiz is now more stable and we want to keep this level of quality (still improving of course). But this way of thinking built a vicious circle: there
are less and less experienced committers (as the PMC wiki page now shows, several committers have found "greener pastures", or for other reasons they
left, that's life...)
Personally I have always favoured the entrance of new committers. I believe I'm the one who proposed the more to invite new people. My last 3
proposals were refused, and I must say with good arguments. To facilitate new arrivals I think we should amend our rules about what a new OFBiz
committer can do or not. Unfortunately this is not the ASF way, where peers are peers. We are currently discussing new possibilities in the PMC...
Jacques
Le 09/03/2014 23:24, Pierre Smits a écrit :
> Jacques,
>
> Thank you for sharing your views and position.
>
> I agree with you that, while ample tools are available to community members
> in projects under the ASF umbrella - such as: Barcamps, ApacheCons, skype
> calls and teleconferences - to exchange viewpoints and to discuss topics,
> the outcome of these real and virtual meetings must be shared through ML of
> the project to hold merit in the community.
> Indeed, this is one of the principles of the ASF. And the reasoning behind
> is simple: if not persisted through the ML of the project it isn't shared
> with all its community members. And follow-up can not be established.
>
> But not everybody is not as good in putting words down on paper and email.
> Some are better in expressing themselves verbally. These community members
> may share their viewpoints too and this teleconference is also a tool to
> enable them too.
> I have invited everybody participating in this project through all
> available mailing lists to ensure that everybody in the OFBiz community has
> been reached.
>
> So you can rest assured that discussions will be within the complete OFBiz
> community.
>
> I am somewhat puzzled that you feel that holding an open discussion on the
> functioning of the project and its future is an initiative against the PMC.
> Are PMC members first and foremost not also community members? And as
> community members may they not also share their viewpoints in discussions
> in the community in other means than the ML?
>
> If you or some of your peers (in both PMC and committers group) feel that
> participating in an open discussion on topics as the functioning and future
> of OFBiz is an initiative against the institute of the PMC of a project
> then you and they should speak up.
>
> You mentioned sides. I say we are one community.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 9, 2014 at 10:37 PM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> Duly noted. If there is anything that you want to be addressed at the
>> teleconferece, please share it here so that others can take note of it and
>> discuss it.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Pierre.
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
>>
>>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Jacques,
Thank you for sharing your views and position.
I agree with you that, while ample tools are available to community members
in projects under the ASF umbrella - such as: Barcamps, ApacheCons, skype
calls and teleconferences - to exchange viewpoints and to discuss topics,
the outcome of these real and virtual meetings must be shared through ML of
the project to hold merit in the community.
Indeed, this is one of the principles of the ASF. And the reasoning behind
is simple: if not persisted through the ML of the project it isn't shared
with all its community members. And follow-up can not be established.
But not everybody is not as good in putting words down on paper and email.
Some are better in expressing themselves verbally. These community members
may share their viewpoints too and this teleconference is also a tool to
enable them too.
I have invited everybody participating in this project through all
available mailing lists to ensure that everybody in the OFBiz community has
been reached.
So you can rest assured that discussions will be within the complete OFBiz
community.
I am somewhat puzzled that you feel that holding an open discussion on the
functioning of the project and its future is an initiative against the PMC.
Are PMC members first and foremost not also community members? And as
community members may they not also share their viewpoints in discussions
in the community in other means than the ML?
If you or some of your peers (in both PMC and committers group) feel that
participating in an open discussion on topics as the functioning and future
of OFBiz is an initiative against the institute of the PMC of a project
then you and they should speak up.
You mentioned sides. I say we are one community.
Regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
On Sun, Mar 9, 2014 at 10:37 PM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Duly noted. If there is anything that you want to be addressed at the
> teleconferece, please share it here so that others can take note of it and
> discuss it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre.
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Paul,
Duly noted. If there is anything that you want to be addressed at the
teleconferece, please share it here so that others can take note of it and
discuss it.
Regards,
Pierre.
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com>.
Hi Pierre,
unfortunately I won't be able to attend. We got a presentation to attend and
it isn't guerenteed that we can make it on time. I am still hoping for a
lunch break in between I could stop by, but for now I will have to attend a
follow-up.
--
View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/The-future-of-OFBiz-Open-Discussion-tp4648864p4648954.html
Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Taher Alkhateeb <sl...@gmail.com>.
We would love to attend representing Pythys software in Kuwait. We have
some thoughts to contribute especially with respect to documentation and
and having components eco-system
Taher Alkhateeb
On Mar 7, 2014 2:06 PM, "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> If you should have any constraints regarding attendance (meaning not being
> able to attend), please drop a message to the general OFBiz ML (
> user@ofbiz.apache.org) with what you think should be addressed so that
> others can be aware of this.
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
If you should have any constraints regarding attendance (meaning not being
able to attend), please drop a message to the general OFBiz ML (
user@ofbiz.apache.org) with what you think should be addressed so that
others can be aware of this.
Regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Rong Nguyen <ro...@olbius.com>.
Thank Pierre,
Great.
Olbius team will contribute our ideas!
-----
Rong Nguyen
Olbius JSC
Deliver highest business value
http://www.olbius.com/
--
View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/The-future-of-OFBiz-Open-Discussion-tp4648865p4648875.html
Sent from the OFBiz - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Julien NICOLAS <ju...@nomaka.fr>.
Hi Pierre,
It's a good idea.
Nomaka team will be there the next thursday.
Julien
Nomaka.fr
Le 07/03/2014 09:00, Pierre Smits a écrit :
> Hi All,
>
> I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
> functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
>
> Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
> would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great opportunity
> to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
> communications via mailing lists.
>
> I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
> tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
> teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
> have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find below a
> small overview of starting times in different timezones:
>
> LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
> Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
> - California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 06:30:00PDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html>UTC-7
> hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179> (U.S.A.
> - New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 09:30:00EDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html>UTC-4
> hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136> (United
> Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 13:30:00GMT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
> UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
> (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 14:30:00CET<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html>UTC+1
> hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
> (Russia)Thursday,
> 13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html>UTC+4
> hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438> (India
> - Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 19:00:00IST<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html>UTC+5:30
> hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
> (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 20:30:00ICT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html>UTC+7
> hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22> (New
> Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
> 02:30:00NZDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html>UTC+13
> hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
> Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can always
> more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
>
> *Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: pierre.smits@orrtiz.com
> <pi...@orrtiz.com>*
>
> *Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
> *Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
> *Duration: * 2 hr.
>
> *Notes: *
>
> *Free Conference Call*
> Conference Dial-in Number: +31 (0) 6 35205070 (Number in the Netherlands)
> Participant Access Code: 779895#
>
>
>
> <http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070>
>
> When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by the
> # key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and have
> access to the touch tone commands listed below.
>
>
> Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
> instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
>
>
> I hope to see you there.
>
> With regards
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
If you should have any constraints regarding attendance (meaning not being
able to attend), please drop a message to the general OFBiz ML (
user@ofbiz.apache.org) with what you think should be addressed so that
others can be aware of this.
Regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@hotwaxmedia.com>.
I would like to mention that Pierre is the only one person in the history of the project that sent his remarks against the OFBiz PMC to the Board of the Apache Software Foundation, asking them to step-in and act versus the OFBiz PMC: he actually did it twice (2 years ago and again yesterday). Since his remarks were made of inaccurate information, baseless assertions, exaggerations, it was easy for the OFBiz PMC to clarify the situation with the Board.
However, besides being very annoying and distracting, these behaviors are against the OFBiz community's spirit: in fact we had very few persons acting like Pierre in the whole history of OFBiz.
If you are new to the project and you are reading or listening to Pierre's statements, please be aware of this information and put them in the right context.
Jacopo
On Mar 13, 2014, at 7:52 AM, Scott Gray <sc...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
>
> I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre (and because the genesis of this meeting seems to have come from a very negative perspective). Those of you who are new to the community or who he is polite to may not be aware of how rude Pierre can be. While he does do some good work from time to time I believe his presence in the community causes more harm than good. He has almost continuously attacked or worked against the PMC for the last year or two and I simply have no interest in hearing anything he has to say any longer. Almost no one seems to remember that he told the ASF he would chair an OFBiz presence at an ApacheCon a year or so ago, it was advertised, calls for papers/talks were made and submitted and then not long before the conference... he disappeared with no explanation to anyone. PMC members were forced to attend the conference (that he organized without consulting the PMC at all) and chair in his place on short notice to maintain the credibility of the project. As far as I know he has never apologized to or thanked those who took his place and never offered an explanation, he simply reappeared 6 months later and carried on causing trouble as usual. I have a hard time believing Pierre will ever be a committer or core contributor to this project so long as he continues to spectacularly fail at working well with others (this is just my opinion, I'm only one voice of many in the community). While I believe he is a destructive force in the community, there is nothing I can do about that, everyone is pretty much free to do as they please. It's up to each and every one of you to decide what he brings to the table and interact with him accordingly.
>
> People talk about PMC "hidden agendas" and other conspiracy theories but often the reality is that it can be difficult to find motivation to work on a project that is constantly critical of the work you do. When I joined this project there was very little infighting and contributing was a rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise from your peers. It's a warm fuzzy feeling that keeps you active at nights and on weekends working on something you're passionate about. For me, that passion is fast disappearing because of people like Pierre (he is certainly not the first but he is particularly vocal). It feels like I'm regularly reading critical emails from various community members, either of the way the project is run or the way the project is progressing. What I very rarely see is any action behind the talk; people suggest major changes and then carry on with their day. No one actually gets anything done. I'm sure some of you would replace the entire PMC given half the chance and that may seem like some great achievement, but eventually... you're going to have to actually do something tangible to keep the community happy and achieve the goals you speak of. If you're not doing anything tangible now, then you're as much a part of the problem as anyone else, take pause before you throw those stones. You're being critical of those who have stayed when others have come and gone, those who have contributed more unpaid hours than most.
>
> How many of you can claim that you do the work in project that would match what you'd like to see from a committer or PMC member? There is absolutely nothing stopping you from making that type of contribution right now, so what is the issue?
>
> For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing designs and documentation), the brighter future of OFBiz starts with you. Be the change that you want to see, go and do something productive for the project instead of complaining about what others are not doing. Just to be clear, contributing to general discussions isn't much of a contribution, it's extremely rare that they result in anything positive actually happening.
>
> Regards
> Scott
>
>
> On 7/03/2014, at 9:00 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
>> functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
>>
>> Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
>> would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great opportunity
>> to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
>> communications via mailing lists.
>>
>> I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
>> tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
>> teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
>> have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find below a
>> small overview of starting times in different timezones:
>>
>> LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
>> Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
>> - California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 06:30:00PDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html>UTC-7
>> hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179> (U.S.A.
>> - New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 09:30:00EDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html>UTC-4
>> hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136> (United
>> Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 13:30:00GMT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
>> UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
>> (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 14:30:00CET<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html>UTC+1
>> hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
>> (Russia)Thursday,
>> 13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html>UTC+4
>> hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438> (India
>> - Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 19:00:00IST<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html>UTC+5:30
>> hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
>> (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 20:30:00ICT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html>UTC+7
>> hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22> (New
>> Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
>> 02:30:00NZDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html>UTC+13
>> hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
>> Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can always
>> more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
>>
>> *Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: pierre.smits@orrtiz.com
>> <pi...@orrtiz.com>*
>>
>> *Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
>> *Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
>> *Duration: * 2 hr.
>>
>> *Notes: *
>>
>> *Free Conference Call*
>> Conference Dial-in Number: +31 (0) 6 35205070 (Number in the Netherlands)
>> Participant Access Code: 779895#
>>
>>
>>
>> <http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070>
>>
>> When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by the
>> # key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and have
>> access to the touch tone commands listed below.
>>
>>
>> Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
>> instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
>>
>>
>> I hope to see you there.
>>
>> With regards
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com>.
@jacques: Thanks for pointing this out. I share the belief that Ruth's
contributions have also fallen under the radar. She put an enormous effort
into writing her book and gave countless ours of free support to outsiders.
She additionally tried her best to create a platform to sell third-party
applications for apache ofbiz.
While at it: BJ Freeman is another one who isn't even mentioned on wiki
pages, despite his years of effort.
--
View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/The-future-of-OFBiz-Open-Discussion-tp4648865p4649360.html
Sent from the OFBiz - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.
To be more clear, the question Ruth then asked was:
<<Dare I ask: can a non-committer be a PMC member? Aside from the ASF members, I don't see a single PMC member who is not a committer. How would a
non-committer gain PMC membership?>>
I/we then completly forgot to answer her :/
Jacques
Le 16/03/2014 14:29, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :
> Hi Jacopo,
>
> I can't answer for Paul, but it seems he is expressing something someone already did years ago: Ruth
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBADMIN/Apache+OFBiz+PMC+%28Project+Management+Committee%29+Members+and+Committers#comment-9373832
>
> Then David rightly said
> <<There is always a possibility that people who have contributed a lot, in any form of contribution, haven't been noticed by a PMC member. If that
> is the case, and someone else notices then please notify the PMC on the private mailing list (private@ofbiz.apache.org).>>
>
> This is not the PMC ML, but I think there are no problems telling some facts which went unnoticed in your list about Paul and the persons he
> mentioned. This because I feel certain persons who have been active but not much with code have not been rewarded enough for their work. I mean if
> they would be interested to be more involved in the community as committers or even PMC members. BTW I/we did not answer to one Ruth's question: can
> a non committer be a PMC member? I did not find anything clear reading
> https://www.apache.org/dev/contributors.html
> https://www.apache.org/dev/new-committers-guide
> and notably https://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#audience
> But I believe it would be possible if the PMC members agree on.
>
> For instance seen from a commit POV, Rupert did not much. But after Jonathon (remember him?) began to write the 1st book on OFBiz and sort of gave
> up, Packt contacted Rupert and he took the burden to review what Jonathon did (1st half of the book), fixed or helped to fix the bugs Jonathan was
> ranting about in this 1st part of the book (instead of doing the right things: fixing them) and completed the book. I know that well. I was then
> working with Rupert on a project and reviewed the book. We could say that this was his own initiative and he was payed for it. Well, sure... but I'm
> also sure it was not his only motivation. And to be frank, I'm not sure it's a good way to make money in respect of the time passed. Also I made
> what was needed to be sure 5% of the profits are going to the ASF.
>
> The same is somehow true for Ruth and Sharan who wrote books which are helping OFBiz users everyday.
> Paul also made efforts to spread the word about OFBiz, by doing many OFBiz presentations in Germany, one in the Europe Apachecon, and wrote articles
> on OFBiz , one in a German Java magazine.
> The guy from the Neogia community are also indirectly doing efforts to make OFBiz better known in France. BTW, a new French association should help
> soon in this direction.
>
> Those are only examples I know and I can speak about, and at the end I can agree that those efforts are not the same than reviewing, testing and
> committing (which means responsibility and a lot of time) code. But still, I believe we underweight them.
>
> I could not refrain to throw my 2 cts
>
> Jacques
>
>
> Le 16/03/2014 08:55, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> please see inline:
>>
>> On Mar 14, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I wouldn't necessarily say that what Pierre brings up is unjust, but
>>> understandably this is a heated discussion. I would bring it down to two few
>>> core points. Obviously this will offend some, but please bare with me:
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. Commitment starts with recognition
>> I completely disagree that the problem is that the PMC/committers group is not noticing contributors; the problem is instead that the current
>> admission bar that we have set, is probably too high for this community. It is true that we are not inviting enough committers and PMC members (and
>> in fact I think we should find ways to fix this, and we have started a preliminary discussion about this) but just because, with the current rules,
>> there are not good candidates. In my opinion, we will have to work at ways to facilitate the growth of new volunteers and we will also have to
>> lower the admission bar by setting up stricter reviews to counterbalance the risk of affecting the quality of commits.
>> As regards your specific position, since this seems to be your main concern/complain, please see below:
>>
>>> I think that the community has a problem with recognizing contributions
>>> properly. I am running a company and thus lack the time to review code on a
>>> daily basis, over the years I have, however, contributed thousands of hours
>>> to this community. I represented OFBiz as a speaker at the ApacheCon, wrote
>>> articles to magazines, committed large parts of code and bugfixes (among
>>> them since 2006: Apache Solr integration, SEO Updates, Axis2 integration,
>>> etc.), committed bugfixes, added wiki documents and helped wherever I could
>>> (not even counting in all the free workshops and presentations i have given
>>> to people interested in the topic). And though I am only a single person, I
>>> think I can say that it went largely unnoticed.
>> Here is the whole list of commits in which you have some credit (over a few years):
>>
>> rev. 1423117: fix for one label
>> rev. 1304205: new category trail method (OFBIZ-4580); no ootb code has ever used it
>> rev. 728455: minor correction done by Jacques based on your bug report to the user list
>> rev. 1234014: minor: "Thanks to Paul Piper for his help about this last point, by pointing about XSD reference."
>> rev. 1430332: German labels for the Accounting application (OFBIZ-5108)
>>
>> We all appreciate your help and I understand that even small contributions like these can initially take a lot of time and effort but unfortunately
>> these are still considered minor contributions by many; I guess this is the reason no one in the PMC has proposed you as a candidate for being
>> invited as committer so far; but please go on, work hard and keep a positive and non-conflictual attitude and I am sure that you will be noticed.
>>
>> As regards your contributions to Jira (uncommitted code, code reviews and misc comments), here is the whole list of what we have in our records:
>>
>> * OFBIZ-4581 (2011/11): rejected/not a problem
>> * OFBIZ-4666 (2012/01): rejected/invalid
>> * OFBIZ-3877 (2012/11): one comment
>> * OFBIZ-5037 (2012/11): a bug report
>> * OFBIZ-5312/OFBIZ-4535 (2013/11): initial requirements and comments/reviews; up to now only the experimental SEO branch was affected (the task
>> history is a huge mess)
>> * OFBIZ-5042 (2012/11): Solr component; no code has been committed yet but I have a series of concerns about this work that I will soon try to fix
>> by committing some code changes to the specialpurpose/lucene component in order to enhance it to support also Solr
>> * OFBIZ-4769 (2012/12): one comment
>> * OFBIZ-4833 (2012/12): one comment
>> * OFBIZ-5109 (2012/12): comments
>> * OFBIZ-3972 (2013/01): one comment
>> * OFBIZ-5248 (2013/06): one comment
>> * OFBIZ-5040 (2014/01): discussion about UI technologies in OFBiz
>>
>> Again, in my opinion the above activity, even if valuable for the project, cannot be considered very high.
>>
>> In addition to this, you have never participated to voting threads, nor helped testing new releases and these are important aspects of the project.
>>
>>> From a business perspective
>>> i would put it as a "bad investment", but we continue to do it for the love
>>> of the project. I noticed that I am not alone in this, other people, like
>>> Angus Gow
>> I could just find one email from him, no activity in Jira nor in the commit history.
>>
>>> or Rupert Howell
>> Here are some stats for Rupert (activity since 2007):
>>
>> * OFBIZ-721: unfinished work, never committed
>> * OFBIZ-707: unfinished work, never committed
>> * OFBIZ-699: reported a broken link in the OFBiz website
>> * OFBIZ-5307: bug report resolved as "not a problem"
>> * OFBIZ-5282: reviews and comments
>> * rev. 1001789: "Auto-complete for dropdowns"
>>
>>> are also examples I could name right away that
>>> haven't received enough recognition for their contributions.
>> Again, do not get me wrong: I greatly appreciate the help you all are providing and I want to personally thank you for each piece of contribution;
>> but I still think that this level of activity may make impractical to invite you as contributors (or at least this has been true with the current
>> rules).
>>
>>> 2. Not everybody in the PMC is active or invested in the community
>> This is a completely different topic that doesn't affect in any way our decisions about new committers.
>> I am not against discussing the idea to ask old inactive committers and PMC members to resign from their role, for the sake of keeping our lists
>> clear (and I also mentioned this in the past to the PMC).
>> However this is a super low priority and maybe also a bad idea if you look at this according to the spirit that inspired these rules at the ASF:
>> * if you do enough work and the PMC votes you to become a committer or PMC of the project, then you deserve to have your name listed forever in the
>> committers/PMC group, unless you ask to resign
>> * in this way the project officially recognizes that an individual plays or has played (at least in a period of the life of the project) an
>> important role
>> * there is no upper limit to the number of committers and PMC members, so the inactive ones do not cause any harm to the new potential candidates
>>
>> In the analysis below there are few errors that have been pointed out by others, so I will not comment further.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Jacopo
>>
>>> The way I understand the argument is that the OFBiz Community is structured
>>> into groups (contributors, committers, pmc), where personal commitment gets
>>> you higher in the ranks. This is not the case for the PMC, however. Just
>>> glancing over the wiki page, there are several people listed that haven't
>>> been active in recent months or sometimes even years. Just to name a few:
>>>
>>> * Ashish Vijaywargiya (most active till 2010)
>>> * Anil Patel (most active till 2010)
>>> * Vikas Mayur
>>> * Paul Foxworthy
>>> * David Welton (probably supported the project in the early stages)
>>> * Yoav Shapira (probably supported the project in the early stages)
>>> * Joseph Eckard
>>> * Bilgin Ibryam
>>>
>>> Andrew Zeneski has been the last addition to the committee in 2013, before
>>> him there hasn't been any change since 2007. The same argument could be made
>>> for a few people who are not really invested into the community any longer,
>>> push their own products, or have moved on to new projects.
>>>
>>> This is quite uncommon for a project that is based on personal commitment
>>> and begs the question why a committee remains static whereas clearly the
>>> project moves forward.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/The-future-of-OFBiz-Open-Discussion-tp4648865p4649277.html
>>> Sent from the OFBiz - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.
Hi Jacopo,
I can't answer for Paul, but it seems he is expressing something someone already did years ago: Ruth
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBADMIN/Apache+OFBiz+PMC+%28Project+Management+Committee%29+Members+and+Committers#comment-9373832
Then David rightly said
<<There is always a possibility that people who have contributed a lot, in any form of contribution, haven't been noticed by a PMC member. If that is
the case, and someone else notices then please notify the PMC on the private mailing list (private@ofbiz.apache.org).>>
This is not the PMC ML, but I think there are no problems telling some facts which went unnoticed in your list about Paul and the persons he
mentioned. This because I feel certain persons who have been active but not much with code have not been rewarded enough for their work. I mean if
they would be interested to be more involved in the community as committers or even PMC members. BTW I/we did not answer to one Ruth's question: can a
non committer be a PMC member? I did not find anything clear reading
https://www.apache.org/dev/contributors.html
https://www.apache.org/dev/new-committers-guide
and notably https://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#audience
But I believe it would be possible if the PMC members agree on.
For instance seen from a commit POV, Rupert did not much. But after Jonathon (remember him?) began to write the 1st book on OFBiz and sort of gave up,
Packt contacted Rupert and he took the burden to review what Jonathon did (1st half of the book), fixed or helped to fix the bugs Jonathan was ranting
about in this 1st part of the book (instead of doing the right things: fixing them) and completed the book. I know that well. I was then working with
Rupert on a project and reviewed the book. We could say that this was his own initiative and he was payed for it. Well, sure... but I'm also sure it
was not his only motivation. And to be frank, I'm not sure it's a good way to make money in respect of the time passed. Also I made what was needed to
be sure 5% of the profits are going to the ASF.
The same is somehow true for Ruth and Sharan who wrote books which are helping OFBiz users everyday.
Paul also made efforts to spread the word about OFBiz, by doing many OFBiz presentations in Germany, one in the Europe Apachecon, and wrote articles
on OFBiz , one in a German Java magazine.
The guy from the Neogia community are also indirectly doing efforts to make OFBiz better known in France. BTW, a new French association should help
soon in this direction.
Those are only examples I know and I can speak about, and at the end I can agree that those efforts are not the same than reviewing, testing and
committing (which means responsibility and a lot of time) code. But still, I believe we underweight them.
I could not refrain to throw my 2 cts
Jacques
Le 16/03/2014 08:55, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :
> Hi Paul,
>
> please see inline:
>
> On Mar 14, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com> wrote:
>
>> I wouldn't necessarily say that what Pierre brings up is unjust, but
>> understandably this is a heated discussion. I would bring it down to two few
>> core points. Obviously this will offend some, but please bare with me:
>>
>>
>> 1. Commitment starts with recognition
> I completely disagree that the problem is that the PMC/committers group is not noticing contributors; the problem is instead that the current admission bar that we have set, is probably too high for this community. It is true that we are not inviting enough committers and PMC members (and in fact I think we should find ways to fix this, and we have started a preliminary discussion about this) but just because, with the current rules, there are not good candidates. In my opinion, we will have to work at ways to facilitate the growth of new volunteers and we will also have to lower the admission bar by setting up stricter reviews to counterbalance the risk of affecting the quality of commits.
> As regards your specific position, since this seems to be your main concern/complain, please see below:
>
>> I think that the community has a problem with recognizing contributions
>> properly. I am running a company and thus lack the time to review code on a
>> daily basis, over the years I have, however, contributed thousands of hours
>> to this community. I represented OFBiz as a speaker at the ApacheCon, wrote
>> articles to magazines, committed large parts of code and bugfixes (among
>> them since 2006: Apache Solr integration, SEO Updates, Axis2 integration,
>> etc.), committed bugfixes, added wiki documents and helped wherever I could
>> (not even counting in all the free workshops and presentations i have given
>> to people interested in the topic). And though I am only a single person, I
>> think I can say that it went largely unnoticed.
> Here is the whole list of commits in which you have some credit (over a few years):
>
> rev. 1423117: fix for one label
> rev. 1304205: new category trail method (OFBIZ-4580); no ootb code has ever used it
> rev. 728455: minor correction done by Jacques based on your bug report to the user list
> rev. 1234014: minor: "Thanks to Paul Piper for his help about this last point, by pointing about XSD reference."
> rev. 1430332: German labels for the Accounting application (OFBIZ-5108)
>
> We all appreciate your help and I understand that even small contributions like these can initially take a lot of time and effort but unfortunately these are still considered minor contributions by many; I guess this is the reason no one in the PMC has proposed you as a candidate for being invited as committer so far; but please go on, work hard and keep a positive and non-conflictual attitude and I am sure that you will be noticed.
>
> As regards your contributions to Jira (uncommitted code, code reviews and misc comments), here is the whole list of what we have in our records:
>
> * OFBIZ-4581 (2011/11): rejected/not a problem
> * OFBIZ-4666 (2012/01): rejected/invalid
> * OFBIZ-3877 (2012/11): one comment
> * OFBIZ-5037 (2012/11): a bug report
> * OFBIZ-5312/OFBIZ-4535 (2013/11): initial requirements and comments/reviews; up to now only the experimental SEO branch was affected (the task history is a huge mess)
> * OFBIZ-5042 (2012/11): Solr component; no code has been committed yet but I have a series of concerns about this work that I will soon try to fix by committing some code changes to the specialpurpose/lucene component in order to enhance it to support also Solr
> * OFBIZ-4769 (2012/12): one comment
> * OFBIZ-4833 (2012/12): one comment
> * OFBIZ-5109 (2012/12): comments
> * OFBIZ-3972 (2013/01): one comment
> * OFBIZ-5248 (2013/06): one comment
> * OFBIZ-5040 (2014/01): discussion about UI technologies in OFBiz
>
> Again, in my opinion the above activity, even if valuable for the project, cannot be considered very high.
>
> In addition to this, you have never participated to voting threads, nor helped testing new releases and these are important aspects of the project.
>
>> From a business perspective
>> i would put it as a "bad investment", but we continue to do it for the love
>> of the project. I noticed that I am not alone in this, other people, like
>> Angus Gow
> I could just find one email from him, no activity in Jira nor in the commit history.
>
>> or Rupert Howell
> Here are some stats for Rupert (activity since 2007):
>
> * OFBIZ-721: unfinished work, never committed
> * OFBIZ-707: unfinished work, never committed
> * OFBIZ-699: reported a broken link in the OFBiz website
> * OFBIZ-5307: bug report resolved as "not a problem"
> * OFBIZ-5282: reviews and comments
> * rev. 1001789: "Auto-complete for dropdowns"
>
>> are also examples I could name right away that
>> haven't received enough recognition for their contributions.
> Again, do not get me wrong: I greatly appreciate the help you all are providing and I want to personally thank you for each piece of contribution; but I still think that this level of activity may make impractical to invite you as contributors (or at least this has been true with the current rules).
>
>> 2. Not everybody in the PMC is active or invested in the community
> This is a completely different topic that doesn't affect in any way our decisions about new committers.
> I am not against discussing the idea to ask old inactive committers and PMC members to resign from their role, for the sake of keeping our lists clear (and I also mentioned this in the past to the PMC).
> However this is a super low priority and maybe also a bad idea if you look at this according to the spirit that inspired these rules at the ASF:
> * if you do enough work and the PMC votes you to become a committer or PMC of the project, then you deserve to have your name listed forever in the committers/PMC group, unless you ask to resign
> * in this way the project officially recognizes that an individual plays or has played (at least in a period of the life of the project) an important role
> * there is no upper limit to the number of committers and PMC members, so the inactive ones do not cause any harm to the new potential candidates
>
> In the analysis below there are few errors that have been pointed out by others, so I will not comment further.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Jacopo
>
>> The way I understand the argument is that the OFBiz Community is structured
>> into groups (contributors, committers, pmc), where personal commitment gets
>> you higher in the ranks. This is not the case for the PMC, however. Just
>> glancing over the wiki page, there are several people listed that haven't
>> been active in recent months or sometimes even years. Just to name a few:
>>
>> * Ashish Vijaywargiya (most active till 2010)
>> * Anil Patel (most active till 2010)
>> * Vikas Mayur
>> * Paul Foxworthy
>> * David Welton (probably supported the project in the early stages)
>> * Yoav Shapira (probably supported the project in the early stages)
>> * Joseph Eckard
>> * Bilgin Ibryam
>>
>> Andrew Zeneski has been the last addition to the committee in 2013, before
>> him there hasn't been any change since 2007. The same argument could be made
>> for a few people who are not really invested into the community any longer,
>> push their own products, or have moved on to new projects.
>>
>> This is quite uncommon for a project that is based on personal commitment
>> and begs the question why a committee remains static whereas clearly the
>> project moves forward.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/The-future-of-OFBiz-Open-Discussion-tp4648865p4649277.html
>> Sent from the OFBiz - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Anil Patel <an...@hotwaxmedia.com>.
Jacques,
Thanks for clarification.
I have put my comments on Jira. My email on this email thread is my response to Paul’s big email about Hotwax Media.
Thanks and Regards
Anil Patel
COO
Hotwax Media Inc
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/
ApacheCon US 2013 Gold Sponsor
http://na.apachecon.com/sponsors/
On Mar 18, 2014, at 5:22 PM, Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com> wrote:
> Anil,
>
> Simply that we should put/keep comments in Jira issues when they are related. This for history sake, I think I wrote that maybe a dozen times already.
>
> Jacques
>
> Le 18/03/2014 19:38, Anil Patel a écrit :
>> Jacques,
>> What do you mean when you say you agree with Pierre?
>>
>>
>> Thanks and Regards
>> Anil Patel
>> COO
>> Hotwax Media Inc
>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/
>> ApacheCon US 2013 Gold Sponsor
>> http://na.apachecon.com/sponsors/
>>
>> On Mar 18, 2014, at 2:26 PM, Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with you Pierre, but please consider to add at least a sentence on what you are replying to.
>>>
>>> The reason is some persons use Nabble instead of directly the ML. And sometimes it takes few minutes for Nabble to sync with the ML, so it might be confusing.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>>> Le 18/03/2014 14:04, Pierre Smits a écrit :
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> It would be better to discuss the necessity and/or merits of each (JIRA)
>>>> issue in the issue itself, in stead of making generalizing assertions. It
>>>> would keep focus and would show that collaboration takes place to resolve
>>>> issues in this project.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>
>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>
>>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.
Anil,
Simply that we should put/keep comments in Jira issues when they are related. This for history sake, I think I wrote that maybe a dozen times already.
Jacques
Le 18/03/2014 19:38, Anil Patel a écrit :
> Jacques,
> What do you mean when you say you agree with Pierre?
>
>
> Thanks and Regards
> Anil Patel
> COO
> Hotwax Media Inc
> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/
> ApacheCon US 2013 Gold Sponsor
> http://na.apachecon.com/sponsors/
>
> On Mar 18, 2014, at 2:26 PM, Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree with you Pierre, but please consider to add at least a sentence on what you are replying to.
>>
>> The reason is some persons use Nabble instead of directly the ML. And sometimes it takes few minutes for Nabble to sync with the ML, so it might be confusing.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>> Le 18/03/2014 14:04, Pierre Smits a écrit :
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> It would be better to discuss the necessity and/or merits of each (JIRA)
>>> issue in the issue itself, in stead of making generalizing assertions. It
>>> would keep focus and would show that collaboration takes place to resolve
>>> issues in this project.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Pierre Smits
>>>
>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Anil Patel <an...@hotwaxmedia.com>.
Jacques,
What do you mean when you say you agree with Pierre?
Thanks and Regards
Anil Patel
COO
Hotwax Media Inc
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/
ApacheCon US 2013 Gold Sponsor
http://na.apachecon.com/sponsors/
On Mar 18, 2014, at 2:26 PM, Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com> wrote:
> I agree with you Pierre, but please consider to add at least a sentence on what you are replying to.
>
> The reason is some persons use Nabble instead of directly the ML. And sometimes it takes few minutes for Nabble to sync with the ML, so it might be confusing.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jacques
>
> Le 18/03/2014 14:04, Pierre Smits a écrit :
>> Hi All,
>>
>> It would be better to discuss the necessity and/or merits of each (JIRA)
>> issue in the issue itself, in stead of making generalizing assertions. It
>> would keep focus and would show that collaboration takes place to resolve
>> issues in this project.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.
I agree with you Pierre, but please consider to add at least a sentence on what you are replying to.
The reason is some persons use Nabble instead of directly the ML. And sometimes it takes few minutes for Nabble to sync with the ML, so it might be
confusing.
Thanks
Jacques
Le 18/03/2014 14:04, Pierre Smits a écrit :
> Hi All,
>
> It would be better to discuss the necessity and/or merits of each (JIRA)
> issue in the issue itself, in stead of making generalizing assertions. It
> would keep focus and would show that collaboration takes place to resolve
> issues in this project.
>
> Regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Hi All,
It would be better to discuss the necessity and/or merits of each (JIRA)
issue in the issue itself, in stead of making generalizing assertions. It
would keep focus and would show that collaboration takes place to resolve
issues in this project.
Regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com>.
I would also like to keep this in the logs for further reference:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-5312
"Anil K Patel added a comment - 11 minutes ago
My suggestion does not fix any problem because, This Jira issue like many
others is trying to fix a problem that does not exist.
Before contributors can expect help from experts in community they need to
demonstrate that they deserve it.
In this case please go learn about content and website entity model and CMS
implementation. You will find that all SEO requirements were addressed in
OFBIz way before SEO term was coined.
Webpathalias entity tracks all the valid URL and it's content associations."
--
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Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Mike Bates <mi...@hotwaxmedia.com>.
Paul,
I understand your concerns, and I’m sorry you feel that you are somehow excluded based on anything other than merit. That must be a frustrating feeling.
The fact is, there is no history of HWM affiliation increasing the likelihood of PMC membership. Indeed 4 of the 6 individuals you mentioned were PMC members prior to their affiliation with HWM, and a 5th was at least a committer prior to his affiliation with HWM. Hopefully that will help you accept that the PMC is indeed merit-driven, and has been formed and maintained in accordance with the relevant ASF policies.
At HotWax Media we will continue to do our best to make sure that OFBiz is a healthy project with a supportive community. We don't always do that perfectly, of course, but we try. In that spirit, I'll bow out of this conversation with you now Paul, because I don't see any more value in it. You are on the wrong path, and I don't want to encourage you any more than I already have. Here's hoping you will focus your energy on something other than the HotWax Conspiracy going forward.
If we can find a productive way to collaborate on improving OFBiz, let's do it!
Best regards,
Mike
--
Mike Bates
HotWax Media
CEO
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
main: 877.736.4080
ApacheCon US 2013 Gold Sponsor
http://na.apachecon.com/sponsors
On Mar 18, 2014, at 10:28 AM, Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com> wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> I am not biased against HWM, but what I question is the objectivity that is
> currently used within this project. As an open source software, you would
> assume that this project is run by the community - as often claimed by
> anybody within the PMC. If you look at the current list of members and there
> personal relations, I would argue that there is at least a conflicting
> perspective:
>
>
> PMC Members with HWM background
> * Jacopo Cappellato (V.P. Technology - Hotwax Media)
> * Scott Gray (Developer - Hotwax Media)
> * Bilgin Ibryam (Former Hotwax Developer)
> * David E. Jones (Former CTO Hotwax Media)
> * Anil Patel (COO Hotwax Media)
> * Ashish Vijaywargiya (Vice President of Operations at HotWax Media)
> * Andrew Zeneski (former CIO Hotwax Media)
>
> ---
> Other PMC members
> * Adrian Crum
> * Hans Bakker
> * Jacques le Roux
> * Erwan de Ferrieres
> * Adam Heath
> * David Welton
>
> If you focus on those that are currently active, you cannot argue that the
> PMC isn't overrun by HWM employees. Now to be very precise on this: I don't
> think that this by itself is a problem. It does, however, put you on the
> spot and makes it less obvious that there is a community focus in place.
> Does this mean that I question every decision by the PMC? No, I think they
> are mostly doing a fine job, but it does mean that the community has to be
> careful, just to make sure that community interest are not neglected in
> favor of company interests.
>
> Active movements against large commits, as in OFBIZ-5312 or presented
> before, don't really help to "clear" the air in this case and neither does
> protectionism of software fragments that aren't used much outside HWM.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/The-future-of-OFBiz-Open-Discussion-tp4648865p4649425.html
> Sent from the OFBiz - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
I find the reply of Anil contemptible and uncalled for. Such a posting does
not help in building the community and furthering the project. In stead it
is a sure path of alienating others.
Regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Anil K Patel <an...@hotwaxmedia.com>.
Paul
Many thanks for writing so much about HotWax. OFBiz Community would benefit lot more if you instead put all this energy to study OFBIz. It will make your contribution useful to others.
Thanks and Regards
Anil Patel
COO
Hotwax Media Inc
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com/
ApacheCon US 2013 Gold Sponsor
http://na.apachecon.com/sponsors/
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 18, 2014, at 12:30 PM, Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I am not biased against HWM, but what I question is the objectivity that is
> currently used within this project. As an open source software, you would
> assume that this project is run by the community - as often claimed by
> anybody within the PMC. If you look at the current list of members and there
> personal relations, I would argue that there is at least a conflicting
> perspective:
>
>
> PMC Members with HWM background
> * Jacopo Cappellato (V.P. Technology - Hotwax Media)
> * Scott Gray (Developer - Hotwax Media)
> * Bilgin Ibryam (Former Hotwax Developer)
> * David E. Jones (Former CTO Hotwax Media)
> * Anil Patel (COO Hotwax Media)
> * Ashish Vijaywargiya (Vice President of Operations at HotWax Media)
> * Andrew Zeneski (former CIO Hotwax Media)
>
> ---
> Other PMC members
> * Adrian Crum
> * Hans Bakker
> * Jacques le Roux
> * Erwan de Ferrieres
> * Adam Heath
> * David Welton
>
> If you focus on those that are currently active, you cannot argue that the
> PMC isn't overrun by HWM employees. Now to be very precise on this: I don't
> think that this by itself is a problem. It does, however, put you on the
> spot and makes it less obvious that there is a community focus in place.
> Does this mean that I question every decision by the PMC? No, I think they
> are mostly doing a fine job, but it does mean that the community has to be
> careful, just to make sure that community interest are not neglected in
> favor of company interests.
>
> Active movements against large commits, as in OFBIZ-5312 or presented
> before, don't really help to "clear" the air in this case and neither does
> protectionism of software fragments that aren't used much outside HWM.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/The-future-of-OFBiz-Open-Discussion-tp4648865p4649425.html
> Sent from the OFBiz - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com>.
I made one error in my list: Bilgin Ibryam
I meant Marco Risaliti, but I forgot that he was not part of the PMC, but a
Committer instead.
--
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Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com>.
Hi Mike,
I am not biased against HWM, but what I question is the objectivity that is
currently used within this project. As an open source software, you would
assume that this project is run by the community - as often claimed by
anybody within the PMC. If you look at the current list of members and there
personal relations, I would argue that there is at least a conflicting
perspective:
PMC Members with HWM background
* Jacopo Cappellato (V.P. Technology - Hotwax Media)
* Scott Gray (Developer - Hotwax Media)
* Bilgin Ibryam (Former Hotwax Developer)
* David E. Jones (Former CTO Hotwax Media)
* Anil Patel (COO Hotwax Media)
* Ashish Vijaywargiya (Vice President of Operations at HotWax Media)
* Andrew Zeneski (former CIO Hotwax Media)
---
Other PMC members
* Adrian Crum
* Hans Bakker
* Jacques le Roux
* Erwan de Ferrieres
* Adam Heath
* David Welton
If you focus on those that are currently active, you cannot argue that the
PMC isn't overrun by HWM employees. Now to be very precise on this: I don't
think that this by itself is a problem. It does, however, put you on the
spot and makes it less obvious that there is a community focus in place.
Does this mean that I question every decision by the PMC? No, I think they
are mostly doing a fine job, but it does mean that the community has to be
careful, just to make sure that community interest are not neglected in
favor of company interests.
Active movements against large commits, as in OFBIZ-5312 or presented
before, don't really help to "clear" the air in this case and neither does
protectionism of software fragments that aren't used much outside HWM.
--
View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/The-future-of-OFBiz-Open-Discussion-tp4648865p4649425.html
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Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Mike Bates <mi...@hotwaxmedia.com>.
Paul: you say you have nothing against HWM and you understand OFBiz history, but your comments consistently reflect your negative bias toward HWM as a company. You imply that we are somehow conspiring against individuals who otherwise have merit on their side, but are foiled by HWM employees within the OFBiz community through some kind of organized effort.
If you look more closely, you will see that a. HWM team members are highly effective at banding together to get things done in OFBiz (with 10,000+ hours donated, we have a lot of practice cooperating on this) and b. when it comes to open source project governance, HWM employees experience no bias or other "direction" from the company either way. Rather, these folks operate totally on their own as individuals within the community.
If you want to get things done in the OFBiz project, bring your best ideas and enlist others in the community. If your ideas are good, no doubt the community will encourage you, and some of those supporting you will be from HWM. Just because you share an idea, however, does not mean it is a good idea idea that (anyone in) the community will agree with, much less take up and pursue.
In the mean time, feel free to stop imagining that "HWM" is somehow conspiring against you. Believe me, we're not. The fact is that we wish you the best and would love to see you help improve OFBiz through great design, stellar project management, ingenious code, or whatever other aspect may be appropriate for you as an individual.
Best regards,
Mike
On Mar 18, 2014, at 2:55 AM, Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com> wrote:
> I reread the flow of this email exchange and I feel obliged to point out a
> few things:
>
>
> @Scott:
> 1) "I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre [...]"
>
>> I think that is a mistake. If any member of the community feels strongly
>> enough to rattle the cages, the pmc should hear him out or alternatively
>> ask him to publish the results on the ml so that the community can share
>> the outcome. I can see how this is an understandable reaction, but I still
>> think it may not be advisable to go harshly against those who are
>> apparently interested in the project.
>
> 2) "When I joined this project there was very little infighting and
> contributing was a rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise
> from your peers."
>
>> I am interested to hear how, from your experience, this changed. You can
>> rest assured that I have deep respect for your contributions (or for
>> anybody who is participating in this community for this matter). Perhaps
>> you are sharing my belief that commitment is not rewarding at this moment?
>
> 3) "For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything
> tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing
> designs and documentation)"
>
>> I think you are pointing directly towards the types of contribution the
>> PMC values. As pointed out before, I think this is only half the truth. By
>> reducing the involvement on code alone, I fear that you are taking away
>> the team spirit. Any team effort on larger project requires good
>> architects, good project managers, good requirement managers and quality
>> managers right next to developers. By focusing only on code, you are
>> pretty much taking the value out of the other contributions.
>
>
> @ Jacopo
> 1) "I would like to mention that Pierre is the only one person in the
> history of the project that sent his remarks against the OFBiz PMC to the
> Board of the Apache Software Foundation, asking them to step-in and act
> versus the OFBiz PMC: he actually did it twice (2 years ago and again
> yesterday)."
>
>> I can see that this is difficult not to take personally, but isn't that
>> why the board of the ASF exists? If he feels misunderstood or neglected by
>> the PMC, perhaps we should ask why and try to reason with him
>> accordingly?!
>
>
> 2)"I completely disagree that the problem is that the PMC/committers group
> is not noticing contributors; the problem is instead that the current
> admission bar that we have set, is probably too high for this community."
>
>> With a single sentence you pretty much vented your own frustration while
>> simultaneously taking away other contributions. As Jacques also pointed
>> out there is a long list of contributors who haven't received any merit
>> despite their years of effort: Ruth, BJ, Rupert, etc. are all examples of
>> this behavior and it is this that I think is breaking the community
>> spirit. Some of them have left the community for these reasons by now,
>> btw.
>
> 3) "As regards your specific position, since this seems to be your main
> concern/complain, please see below: " ... "Here is the whole list of commits
> in which you have some credit (over a few years):"
>
>> Here again you focus on a single piece of contribution: code. That is
>> probably only your own view on things, but I must say that I find it
>> rather astounding. I would also like to point out that in no way I
>> inferred that "this seems to be my main concern/complain". I can only
>> speak for myself when I complain about problems in the community and so I
>> did. Not only did you fail to see the point I was raising, you also turned
>> it into a personal insult. I think this explains a lot on what is
>> currently going on in the community.
>
> 4) “This is a completely different topic that doesn't affect in any way our
> decisions about new committers.”
>> Actually it couldn’t be further from the truth. I currently have the
>> impression that the PMC is run like a boys club, where those connected to
>> the HWM are getting more likely to become a part of. I would like to point
>> out that the list of people I mentioned who haven’t been active in this
>> community in years, or perhaps only slightly for a short while, is also a
>> list dominated by former or current HWM employees.
> Again, I am not trying to offend those who have actually gained their merit
> through actual commitment, but with the list of people I mentioned there is
> at least some doubt. I also have nothing against HWM and I understand OFBiz’
> history, but precisely because of it the PMC has to make sure it isn’t seen
> as overrun by a single company.
>
> @David
> 1) "This is an inspiring reminder of how things actually work in the ASF.
> Apache OFBiz is not managed top-down, it is managed bottom-up based on
> actual effort and merit. "
>
> If this were the case, then the discussion would go differently. It is
> definately a top-down management approach. I have no problem with it, but we
> should accept that this is the way it is: you gain merit through action and
> hence climb up the ladder.
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/The-future-of-OFBiz-Open-Discussion-tp4648865p4649395.html
> Sent from the OFBiz - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com>.
I reread the flow of this email exchange and I feel obliged to point out a
few things:
@Scott:
1) "I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre [...]"
> I think that is a mistake. If any member of the community feels strongly
> enough to rattle the cages, the pmc should hear him out or alternatively
> ask him to publish the results on the ml so that the community can share
> the outcome. I can see how this is an understandable reaction, but I still
> think it may not be advisable to go harshly against those who are
> apparently interested in the project.
2) "When I joined this project there was very little infighting and
contributing was a rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise
from your peers."
> I am interested to hear how, from your experience, this changed. You can
> rest assured that I have deep respect for your contributions (or for
> anybody who is participating in this community for this matter). Perhaps
> you are sharing my belief that commitment is not rewarding at this moment?
3) "For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything
tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing
designs and documentation)"
> I think you are pointing directly towards the types of contribution the
> PMC values. As pointed out before, I think this is only half the truth. By
> reducing the involvement on code alone, I fear that you are taking away
> the team spirit. Any team effort on larger project requires good
> architects, good project managers, good requirement managers and quality
> managers right next to developers. By focusing only on code, you are
> pretty much taking the value out of the other contributions.
@ Jacopo
1) "I would like to mention that Pierre is the only one person in the
history of the project that sent his remarks against the OFBiz PMC to the
Board of the Apache Software Foundation, asking them to step-in and act
versus the OFBiz PMC: he actually did it twice (2 years ago and again
yesterday)."
> I can see that this is difficult not to take personally, but isn't that
> why the board of the ASF exists? If he feels misunderstood or neglected by
> the PMC, perhaps we should ask why and try to reason with him
> accordingly?!
2)"I completely disagree that the problem is that the PMC/committers group
is not noticing contributors; the problem is instead that the current
admission bar that we have set, is probably too high for this community."
> With a single sentence you pretty much vented your own frustration while
> simultaneously taking away other contributions. As Jacques also pointed
> out there is a long list of contributors who haven't received any merit
> despite their years of effort: Ruth, BJ, Rupert, etc. are all examples of
> this behavior and it is this that I think is breaking the community
> spirit. Some of them have left the community for these reasons by now,
> btw.
3) "As regards your specific position, since this seems to be your main
concern/complain, please see below: " ... "Here is the whole list of commits
in which you have some credit (over a few years):"
> Here again you focus on a single piece of contribution: code. That is
> probably only your own view on things, but I must say that I find it
> rather astounding. I would also like to point out that in no way I
> inferred that "this seems to be my main concern/complain". I can only
> speak for myself when I complain about problems in the community and so I
> did. Not only did you fail to see the point I was raising, you also turned
> it into a personal insult. I think this explains a lot on what is
> currently going on in the community.
4) “This is a completely different topic that doesn't affect in any way our
decisions about new committers.”
> Actually it couldn’t be further from the truth. I currently have the
> impression that the PMC is run like a boys club, where those connected to
> the HWM are getting more likely to become a part of. I would like to point
> out that the list of people I mentioned who haven’t been active in this
> community in years, or perhaps only slightly for a short while, is also a
> list dominated by former or current HWM employees.
Again, I am not trying to offend those who have actually gained their merit
through actual commitment, but with the list of people I mentioned there is
at least some doubt. I also have nothing against HWM and I understand OFBiz’
history, but precisely because of it the PMC has to make sure it isn’t seen
as overrun by a single company.
@David
1) "This is an inspiring reminder of how things actually work in the ASF.
Apache OFBiz is not managed top-down, it is managed bottom-up based on
actual effort and merit. "
If this were the case, then the discussion would go differently. It is
definately a top-down management approach. I have no problem with it, but we
should accept that this is the way it is: you gain merit through action and
hence climb up the ladder.
--
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Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.
Le 16/03/2014 08:55, Jacopo Cappellato a écrit :
> * OFBIZ-5312/OFBIZ-4535 (2013/11): initial requirements and comments/reviews; up to now only the experimental SEO branch was affected (the task
> history is a huge mess)
I just wanted to note that I have made an abstract at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-5312?focusedCommentId=13820590
And with this last point https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-5312?focusedCommentId=13936341 this branch is ready to be committed.
Even if I believe it's OK, before committing I'd appreciate if more people could test, thanks!
Jacques
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com>.
@jacopo: Thanks for taking the time to so carefully go over the activity. I
hope you do realize that though I am not always personally submitting
things, a lot is sponsored by my company. It is precisely your attitude that
will eventually break the community
--
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Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@hotwaxmedia.com>.
Hi Paul,
please see inline:
On Mar 14, 2014, at 11:00 AM, Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com> wrote:
> I wouldn't necessarily say that what Pierre brings up is unjust, but
> understandably this is a heated discussion. I would bring it down to two few
> core points. Obviously this will offend some, but please bare with me:
>
>
> 1. Commitment starts with recognition
I completely disagree that the problem is that the PMC/committers group is not noticing contributors; the problem is instead that the current admission bar that we have set, is probably too high for this community. It is true that we are not inviting enough committers and PMC members (and in fact I think we should find ways to fix this, and we have started a preliminary discussion about this) but just because, with the current rules, there are not good candidates. In my opinion, we will have to work at ways to facilitate the growth of new volunteers and we will also have to lower the admission bar by setting up stricter reviews to counterbalance the risk of affecting the quality of commits.
As regards your specific position, since this seems to be your main concern/complain, please see below:
> I think that the community has a problem with recognizing contributions
> properly. I am running a company and thus lack the time to review code on a
> daily basis, over the years I have, however, contributed thousands of hours
> to this community. I represented OFBiz as a speaker at the ApacheCon, wrote
> articles to magazines, committed large parts of code and bugfixes (among
> them since 2006: Apache Solr integration, SEO Updates, Axis2 integration,
> etc.), committed bugfixes, added wiki documents and helped wherever I could
> (not even counting in all the free workshops and presentations i have given
> to people interested in the topic). And though I am only a single person, I
> think I can say that it went largely unnoticed.
Here is the whole list of commits in which you have some credit (over a few years):
rev. 1423117: fix for one label
rev. 1304205: new category trail method (OFBIZ-4580); no ootb code has ever used it
rev. 728455: minor correction done by Jacques based on your bug report to the user list
rev. 1234014: minor: "Thanks to Paul Piper for his help about this last point, by pointing about XSD reference."
rev. 1430332: German labels for the Accounting application (OFBIZ-5108)
We all appreciate your help and I understand that even small contributions like these can initially take a lot of time and effort but unfortunately these are still considered minor contributions by many; I guess this is the reason no one in the PMC has proposed you as a candidate for being invited as committer so far; but please go on, work hard and keep a positive and non-conflictual attitude and I am sure that you will be noticed.
As regards your contributions to Jira (uncommitted code, code reviews and misc comments), here is the whole list of what we have in our records:
* OFBIZ-4581 (2011/11): rejected/not a problem
* OFBIZ-4666 (2012/01): rejected/invalid
* OFBIZ-3877 (2012/11): one comment
* OFBIZ-5037 (2012/11): a bug report
* OFBIZ-5312/OFBIZ-4535 (2013/11): initial requirements and comments/reviews; up to now only the experimental SEO branch was affected (the task history is a huge mess)
* OFBIZ-5042 (2012/11): Solr component; no code has been committed yet but I have a series of concerns about this work that I will soon try to fix by committing some code changes to the specialpurpose/lucene component in order to enhance it to support also Solr
* OFBIZ-4769 (2012/12): one comment
* OFBIZ-4833 (2012/12): one comment
* OFBIZ-5109 (2012/12): comments
* OFBIZ-3972 (2013/01): one comment
* OFBIZ-5248 (2013/06): one comment
* OFBIZ-5040 (2014/01): discussion about UI technologies in OFBiz
Again, in my opinion the above activity, even if valuable for the project, cannot be considered very high.
In addition to this, you have never participated to voting threads, nor helped testing new releases and these are important aspects of the project.
> From a business perspective
> i would put it as a "bad investment", but we continue to do it for the love
> of the project. I noticed that I am not alone in this, other people, like
> Angus Gow
I could just find one email from him, no activity in Jira nor in the commit history.
> or Rupert Howell
Here are some stats for Rupert (activity since 2007):
* OFBIZ-721: unfinished work, never committed
* OFBIZ-707: unfinished work, never committed
* OFBIZ-699: reported a broken link in the OFBiz website
* OFBIZ-5307: bug report resolved as "not a problem"
* OFBIZ-5282: reviews and comments
* rev. 1001789: "Auto-complete for dropdowns"
> are also examples I could name right away that
> haven't received enough recognition for their contributions.
Again, do not get me wrong: I greatly appreciate the help you all are providing and I want to personally thank you for each piece of contribution; but I still think that this level of activity may make impractical to invite you as contributors (or at least this has been true with the current rules).
>
> 2. Not everybody in the PMC is active or invested in the community
This is a completely different topic that doesn't affect in any way our decisions about new committers.
I am not against discussing the idea to ask old inactive committers and PMC members to resign from their role, for the sake of keeping our lists clear (and I also mentioned this in the past to the PMC).
However this is a super low priority and maybe also a bad idea if you look at this according to the spirit that inspired these rules at the ASF:
* if you do enough work and the PMC votes you to become a committer or PMC of the project, then you deserve to have your name listed forever in the committers/PMC group, unless you ask to resign
* in this way the project officially recognizes that an individual plays or has played (at least in a period of the life of the project) an important role
* there is no upper limit to the number of committers and PMC members, so the inactive ones do not cause any harm to the new potential candidates
In the analysis below there are few errors that have been pointed out by others, so I will not comment further.
Kind regards,
Jacopo
> The way I understand the argument is that the OFBiz Community is structured
> into groups (contributors, committers, pmc), where personal commitment gets
> you higher in the ranks. This is not the case for the PMC, however. Just
> glancing over the wiki page, there are several people listed that haven't
> been active in recent months or sometimes even years. Just to name a few:
>
> * Ashish Vijaywargiya (most active till 2010)
> * Anil Patel (most active till 2010)
> * Vikas Mayur
> * Paul Foxworthy
> * David Welton (probably supported the project in the early stages)
> * Yoav Shapira (probably supported the project in the early stages)
> * Joseph Eckard
> * Bilgin Ibryam
>
> Andrew Zeneski has been the last addition to the committee in 2013, before
> him there hasn't been any change since 2007. The same argument could be made
> for a few people who are not really invested into the community any longer,
> push their own products, or have moved on to new projects.
>
> This is quite uncommon for a project that is based on personal commitment
> and begs the question why a committee remains static whereas clearly the
> project moves forward.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/The-future-of-OFBiz-Open-Discussion-tp4648865p4649277.html
> Sent from the OFBiz - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Scott Gray <sc...@hotwaxmedia.com>.
Hi Paul,
I don't like personal attacks either but I felt it necessary to make those comments given Pierre's history. I personally see it more as a defensive action than an offensive one. The fact is he has in the past been rude, insulted plenty of long time contributors and attempted to cause disharmony within the project using baseless accusations. The recent chain of events appears to be another round of the same unnecessary behavior and I felt it necessary to provide the bigger picture to those who may be unaware. I can easily provide links to the various threads if anyone wants to disagree with what I've said but they aren't hard to find on your own (particularly around April/May 2012).
Regards
Scott
On 15/03/2014, at 1:04 AM, Paul Piper wrote:
>
> Lastly, I have to point out that the personal attack on Pierre is also a bit
> uncalled. He brought up some interesting points and chose valid methods to
> do so, one being this message list, the other being the asf. I don't think
> that he personally offended a single person, so perhaps we can keep it low
> on that?
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com>.
Jacques,
Thanks for clarifying Andrew's status, I must have misread the wiki page.
Then we are down to Paul Foxworthy being the last person having been added
in 2012. The rest of the argument stands as it was.
I would also like to clarify that my post is in no effect meant to be
offensive to anyone. I think that there is an unsatisfactory status quo and
I brought it down to two points. Clearly there are members of the PMC who I
have deep respect for and who are very active. This doesn't change the fact,
however, that the PMC has been very protective over their own status and
seldom chooses to update the list of PMC members, committers and
contributors. I would also like to point out, that over the years I have had
the impression that it is easier for those connected to HWM have a higher
chance of becoming either committers or members of the pmc. It may be only a
personal impression, but it is a very sour one. This being a project driven
by personal investment, it is this that i find worthy of a discussion.
Lastly, I have to point out that the personal attack on Pierre is also a bit
uncalled. He brought up some interesting points and chose valid methods to
do so, one being this message list, the other being the asf. I don't think
that he personally offended a single person, so perhaps we can keep it low
on that?
--
View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/The-future-of-OFBiz-Open-Discussion-tp4648865p4649282.html
Sent from the OFBiz - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.
Paul,
Since I was the last one to update the PMC wiki page, let me correct some points in your point 2
Though less, Paul Foxworthy is still active. You can spot some of his pertinent comments in both the MLs and Jira issues from time to time. We should
always remember that quantity is not quality...
>Andrew Zeneski has been the last addition to the committee in 2013
I don't know how you came to this result. It's clearly specified that Andrew was a co-founder of the project in 2001 and hence part of the PMC the 1st day of the Apache era.
For the rest, I let people defend themselves... if they want...
Note that I made a mistake for Erwan and Bruno, they are still part of the PMC. There is indeed no emeritus status for PMC member. The OFBiz PMC could though create one, each PMC is able to create its own policies:http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#emeritus
Jacques
Le 14/03/2014 11:00, Paul Piper a écrit :
> I wouldn't necessarily say that what Pierre brings up is unjust, but
> understandably this is a heated discussion. I would bring it down to two few
> core points. Obviously this will offend some, but please bare with me:
>
>
> 1. Commitment starts with recognition
> I think that the community has a problem with recognizing contributions
> properly. I am running a company and thus lack the time to review code on a
> daily basis, over the years I have, however, contributed thousands of hours
> to this community. I represented OFBiz as a speaker at the ApacheCon, wrote
> articles to magazines, committed large parts of code and bugfixes (among
> them since 2006: Apache Solr integration, SEO Updates, Axis2 integration,
> etc.), committed bugfixes, added wiki documents and helped wherever I could
> (not even counting in all the free workshops and presentations i have given
> to people interested in the topic). And though I am only a single person, I
> think I can say that it went largely unnoticed. From a business perspective
> i would put it as a "bad investment", but we continue to do it for the love
> of the project. I noticed that I am not alone in this, other people, like
> Angus Gow or Rupert Howell are also examples I could name right away that
> haven't received enough recognition for their contributions.
>
>
>
> 2. Not everybody in the PMC is active or invested in the community
> The way I understand the argument is that the OFBiz Community is structured
> into groups (contributors, committers, pmc), where personal commitment gets
> you higher in the ranks. This is not the case for the PMC, however. Just
> glancing over the wiki page, there are several people listed that haven't
> been active in recent months or sometimes even years. Just to name a few:
>
> * Ashish Vijaywargiya (most active till 2010)
> * Anil Patel (most active till 2010)
> * Vikas Mayur
> * Paul Foxworthy
> * David Welton (probably supported the project in the early stages)
> * Yoav Shapira (probably supported the project in the early stages)
> * Joseph Eckard
> * Bilgin Ibryam
>
> Andrew Zeneski has been the last addition to the committee in 2013, before
> him there hasn't been any change since 2007. The same argument could be made
> for a few people who are not really invested into the community any longer,
> push their own products, or have moved on to new projects.
>
> This is quite uncommon for a project that is based on personal commitment
> and begs the question why a committee remains static whereas clearly the
> project moves forward.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/The-future-of-OFBiz-Open-Discussion-tp4648865p4649277.html
> Sent from the OFBiz - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Hans Bakker <ma...@antwebsystems.com>.
Paul,
Well said, that is the key problem:
many people people work very hard for the project and do not get any
recognition for it in what ever form.
Not having the key contributors on the ofbiz site main page is an example.
Regards,
Hans
On 14/03/14 17:00, Paul Piper wrote:
> I wouldn't necessarily say that what Pierre brings up is unjust, but
> understandably this is a heated discussion. I would bring it down to two few
> core points. Obviously this will offend some, but please bare with me:
>
>
> 1. Commitment starts with recognition
> I think that the community has a problem with recognizing contributions
> properly. I am running a company and thus lack the time to review code on a
> daily basis, over the years I have, however, contributed thousands of hours
> to this community. I represented OFBiz as a speaker at the ApacheCon, wrote
> articles to magazines, committed large parts of code and bugfixes (among
> them since 2006: Apache Solr integration, SEO Updates, Axis2 integration,
> etc.), committed bugfixes, added wiki documents and helped wherever I could
> (not even counting in all the free workshops and presentations i have given
> to people interested in the topic). And though I am only a single person, I
> think I can say that it went largely unnoticed. From a business perspective
> i would put it as a "bad investment", but we continue to do it for the love
> of the project. I noticed that I am not alone in this, other people, like
> Angus Gow or Rupert Howell are also examples I could name right away that
> haven't received enough recognition for their contributions.
>
>
>
> 2. Not everybody in the PMC is active or invested in the community
> The way I understand the argument is that the OFBiz Community is structured
> into groups (contributors, committers, pmc), where personal commitment gets
> you higher in the ranks. This is not the case for the PMC, however. Just
> glancing over the wiki page, there are several people listed that haven't
> been active in recent months or sometimes even years. Just to name a few:
>
> * Ashish Vijaywargiya (most active till 2010)
> * Anil Patel (most active till 2010)
> * Vikas Mayur
> * Paul Foxworthy
> * David Welton (probably supported the project in the early stages)
> * Yoav Shapira (probably supported the project in the early stages)
> * Joseph Eckard
> * Bilgin Ibryam
>
> Andrew Zeneski has been the last addition to the committee in 2013, before
> him there hasn't been any change since 2007. The same argument could be made
> for a few people who are not really invested into the community any longer,
> push their own products, or have moved on to new projects.
>
> This is quite uncommon for a project that is based on personal commitment
> and begs the question why a committee remains static whereas clearly the
> project moves forward.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/The-future-of-OFBiz-Open-Discussion-tp4648865p4649277.html
> Sent from the OFBiz - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com>.
I wouldn't necessarily say that what Pierre brings up is unjust, but
understandably this is a heated discussion. I would bring it down to two few
core points. Obviously this will offend some, but please bare with me:
1. Commitment starts with recognition
I think that the community has a problem with recognizing contributions
properly. I am running a company and thus lack the time to review code on a
daily basis, over the years I have, however, contributed thousands of hours
to this community. I represented OFBiz as a speaker at the ApacheCon, wrote
articles to magazines, committed large parts of code and bugfixes (among
them since 2006: Apache Solr integration, SEO Updates, Axis2 integration,
etc.), committed bugfixes, added wiki documents and helped wherever I could
(not even counting in all the free workshops and presentations i have given
to people interested in the topic). And though I am only a single person, I
think I can say that it went largely unnoticed. From a business perspective
i would put it as a "bad investment", but we continue to do it for the love
of the project. I noticed that I am not alone in this, other people, like
Angus Gow or Rupert Howell are also examples I could name right away that
haven't received enough recognition for their contributions.
2. Not everybody in the PMC is active or invested in the community
The way I understand the argument is that the OFBiz Community is structured
into groups (contributors, committers, pmc), where personal commitment gets
you higher in the ranks. This is not the case for the PMC, however. Just
glancing over the wiki page, there are several people listed that haven't
been active in recent months or sometimes even years. Just to name a few:
* Ashish Vijaywargiya (most active till 2010)
* Anil Patel (most active till 2010)
* Vikas Mayur
* Paul Foxworthy
* David Welton (probably supported the project in the early stages)
* Yoav Shapira (probably supported the project in the early stages)
* Joseph Eckard
* Bilgin Ibryam
Andrew Zeneski has been the last addition to the committee in 2013, before
him there hasn't been any change since 2007. The same argument could be made
for a few people who are not really invested into the community any longer,
push their own products, or have moved on to new projects.
This is quite uncommon for a project that is based on personal commitment
and begs the question why a committee remains static whereas clearly the
project moves forward.
--
View this message in context: http://ofbiz.135035.n4.nabble.com/The-future-of-OFBiz-Open-Discussion-tp4648865p4649277.html
Sent from the OFBiz - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by "David E. Jones" <de...@me.com>.
Thank you Scott. This is an inspiring reminder of how things actually work in the ASF. Apache OFBiz is not managed top-down, it is managed bottom-up based on actual effort and merit. Discussions really only matter if they lead up to an effort that results in actual code/doc/etc changes.
Pierre's message to the Board is a great example of misunderstanding this guiding principle, so I responded in more detail in that thread, but just wanted to throw in my +1 for what you wrote here.
-David
On Mar 12, 2014, at 11:52 PM, Scott Gray <sc...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
>
> I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre (and because the genesis of this meeting seems to have come from a very negative perspective). Those of you who are new to the community or who he is polite to may not be aware of how rude Pierre can be. While he does do some good work from time to time I believe his presence in the community causes more harm than good. He has almost continuously attacked or worked against the PMC for the last year or two and I simply have no interest in hearing anything he has to say any longer. Almost no one seems to remember that he told the ASF he would chair an OFBiz presence at an ApacheCon a year or so ago, it was advertised, calls for papers/talks were made and submitted and then not long before the conference... he disappeared with no explanation to anyone. PMC members were forced to attend the conference (that he organized without consulting the PMC at all) and chair in his place on short notice to maintain the credibility of the project. As far as I know he has never apologized to or thanked those who took his place and never offered an explanation, he simply reappeared 6 months later and carried on causing trouble as usual. I have a hard time believing Pierre will ever be a committer or core contributor to this project so long as he continues to spectacularly fail at working well with others (this is just my opinion, I'm only one voice of many in the community). While I believe he is a destructive force in the community, there is nothing I can do about that, everyone is pretty much free to do as they please. It's up to each and every one of you to decide what he brings to the table and interact with him accordingly.
>
> People talk about PMC "hidden agendas" and other conspiracy theories but often the reality is that it can be difficult to find motivation to work on a project that is constantly critical of the work you do. When I joined this project there was very little infighting and contributing was a rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise from your peers. It's a warm fuzzy feeling that keeps you active at nights and on weekends working on something you're passionate about. For me, that passion is fast disappearing because of people like Pierre (he is certainly not the first but he is particularly vocal). It feels like I'm regularly reading critical emails from various community members, either of the way the project is run or the way the project is progressing. What I very rarely see is any action behind the talk; people suggest major changes and then carry on with their day. No one actually gets anything done. I'm sure some of you would replace the entire PMC given half the chance and that may seem like some great achievement, but eventually... you're going to have to actually do something tangible to keep the community happy and achieve the goals you speak of. If you're not doing anything tangible now, then you're as much a part of the problem as anyone else, take pause before you throw those stones. You're being critical of those who have stayed when others have come and gone, those who have contributed more unpaid hours than most.
>
> How many of you can claim that you do the work in project that would match what you'd like to see from a committer or PMC member? There is absolutely nothing stopping you from making that type of contribution right now, so what is the issue?
>
> For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing designs and documentation), the brighter future of OFBiz starts with you. Be the change that you want to see, go and do something productive for the project instead of complaining about what others are not doing. Just to be clear, contributing to general discussions isn't much of a contribution, it's extremely rare that they result in anything positive actually happening.
>
> Regards
> Scott
>
>
> On 7/03/2014, at 9:00 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
>> functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
>>
>> Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
>> would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great opportunity
>> to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
>> communications via mailing lists.
>>
>> I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
>> tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
>> teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
>> have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find below a
>> small overview of starting times in different timezones:
>>
>> LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
>> Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
>> - California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 06:30:00PDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html>UTC-7
>> hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179> (U.S.A.
>> - New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 09:30:00EDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html>UTC-4
>> hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136> (United
>> Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 13:30:00GMT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
>> UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
>> (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 14:30:00CET<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html>UTC+1
>> hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
>> (Russia)Thursday,
>> 13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html>UTC+4
>> hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438> (India
>> - Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 19:00:00IST<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html>UTC+5:30
>> hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
>> (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 20:30:00ICT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html>UTC+7
>> hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22> (New
>> Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
>> 02:30:00NZDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html>UTC+13
>> hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
>> Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can always
>> more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
>>
>> *Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: pierre.smits@orrtiz.com
>> <pi...@orrtiz.com>*
>>
>> *Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
>> *Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
>> *Duration: * 2 hr.
>>
>> *Notes: *
>>
>> *Free Conference Call*
>> Conference Dial-in Number: +31 (0) 6 35205070 (Number in the Netherlands)
>> Participant Access Code: 779895#
>>
>>
>>
>> <http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070>
>>
>> When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by the
>> # key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and have
>> access to the touch tone commands listed below.
>>
>>
>> Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
>> instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
>>
>>
>> I hope to see you there.
>>
>> With regards
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Scott Gray <sc...@hotwaxmedia.com>.
No I would say it's a perfectly appropriate venue given the context of the discussion.
Regards
Scott
On 14/03/2014, at 3:35 AM, Mike wrote:
>> I believe he is a destructive force in the community
>
> This is an inappropriate venue for personal attacks.
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Scott Gray <sc...@hotwaxmedia.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre (and because
>> the genesis of this meeting seems to have come from a very negative
>> perspective). Those of you who are new to the community or who he is polite
>> to may not be aware of how rude Pierre can be. While he does do some good
>> work from time to time I believe his presence in the community causes more
>> harm than good. He has almost continuously attacked or worked against the
>> PMC for the last year or two and I simply have no interest in hearing
>> anything he has to say any longer. Almost no one seems to remember that he
>> told the ASF he would chair an OFBiz presence at an ApacheCon a year or so
>> ago, it was advertised, calls for papers/talks were made and submitted and
>> then not long before the conference... he disappeared with no explanation
>> to anyone. PMC members were forced to attend the conference (that he
>> organized without consulting the PMC at all) and chair in his place on
>> short notice to maintain the credibility of the project. As far as I know
>> he has never apologized to or thanked those who took his place and never
>> offered an explanation, he simply reappeared 6 months later and carried on
>> causing trouble as usual. I have a hard time believing Pierre will ever be
>> a committer or core contributor to this project so long as he continues to
>> spectacularly fail at working well with others (this is just my opinion,
>> I'm only one voice of many in the community). While I believe he is a
>> destructive force in the community, there is nothing I can do about that,
>> everyone is pretty much free to do as they please. It's up to each and
>> every one of you to decide what he brings to the table and interact with
>> him accordingly.
>>
>> People talk about PMC "hidden agendas" and other conspiracy theories but
>> often the reality is that it can be difficult to find motivation to work on
>> a project that is constantly critical of the work you do. When I joined
>> this project there was very little infighting and contributing was a
>> rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise from your peers.
>> It's a warm fuzzy feeling that keeps you active at nights and on weekends
>> working on something you're passionate about. For me, that passion is fast
>> disappearing because of people like Pierre (he is certainly not the first
>> but he is particularly vocal). It feels like I'm regularly reading
>> critical emails from various community members, either of the way the
>> project is run or the way the project is progressing. What I very rarely
>> see is any action behind the talk; people suggest major changes and then
>> carry on with their day. No one actually gets anything done. I'm sure
>> some of you would replace the entire PMC given half the chance and that may
>> seem like some great achievement, but eventually... you're going to have
>> to actually do something tangible to keep the community happy and achieve
>> the goals you speak of. If you're not doing anything tangible now, then
>> you're as much a part of the problem as anyone else, take pause before you
>> throw those stones. You're being critical of those who have stayed when
>> others have come and gone, those who have contributed more unpaid hours
>> than most.
>>
>> How many of you can claim that you do the work in project that would match
>> what you'd like to see from a committer or PMC member? There is absolutely
>> nothing stopping you from making that type of contribution right now, so
>> what is the issue?
>>
>> For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything
>> tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing
>> designs and documentation), the brighter future of OFBiz starts with you.
>> Be the change that you want to see, go and do something productive for the
>> project instead of complaining about what others are not doing. Just to be
>> clear, contributing to general discussions isn't much of a contribution,
>> it's extremely rare that they result in anything positive actually
>> happening.
>>
>> Regards
>> Scott
>>
>>
>> On 7/03/2014, at 9:00 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
>>> functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
>>>
>>> Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
>>> would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great
>> opportunity
>>> to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
>>> communications via mailing lists.
>>>
>>> I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
>>> tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
>>> teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
>>> have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find
>> below a
>>> small overview of starting times in different timezones:
>>>
>>> LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
>>> Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
>>> - California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>>> 06:30:00PDT<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html
>>> UTC-7
>>> hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179>
>> (U.S.A.
>>> - New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>>> 09:30:00EDT<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html
>>> UTC-4
>>> hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136>
>> (United
>>> Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>>> 13:30:00GMT<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
>>> UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
>>> (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>>> 14:30:00CET<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html
>>> UTC+1
>>> hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
>>> (Russia)Thursday,
>>> 13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html
>>> UTC+4
>>> hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438>
>> (India
>>> - Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>>> 19:00:00IST<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html
>>> UTC+5:30
>>> hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
>>> (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>>> 20:30:00ICT<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html
>>> UTC+7
>>> hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22>
>> (New
>>> Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
>>> 02:30:00NZDT<
>> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html
>>> UTC+13
>>> hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
>>> Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can
>> always
>>> more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
>>>
>>> *Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: pierre.smits@orrtiz.com
>>> <pi...@orrtiz.com>*
>>>
>>> *Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
>>> *Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
>>> *Duration: * 2 hr.
>>>
>>> *Notes: *
>>>
>>> *Free Conference Call*
>>> Conference Dial-in Number: +31 (0) 6 35205070 (Number in the
>> Netherlands)
>>> Participant Access Code: 779895#
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <
>> http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070
>>>
>>>
>>> When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by
>> the
>>> # key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and
>> have
>>> access to the touch tone commands listed below.
>>>
>>>
>>> Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
>>> instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope to see you there.
>>>
>>> With regards
>>>
>>> Pierre Smits
>>>
>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>
>>
>>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Mike <mz...@gmail.com>.
> I believe he is a destructive force in the community
This is an inappropriate venue for personal attacks.
On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Scott Gray <sc...@hotwaxmedia.com>wrote:
>
> I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre (and because
> the genesis of this meeting seems to have come from a very negative
> perspective). Those of you who are new to the community or who he is polite
> to may not be aware of how rude Pierre can be. While he does do some good
> work from time to time I believe his presence in the community causes more
> harm than good. He has almost continuously attacked or worked against the
> PMC for the last year or two and I simply have no interest in hearing
> anything he has to say any longer. Almost no one seems to remember that he
> told the ASF he would chair an OFBiz presence at an ApacheCon a year or so
> ago, it was advertised, calls for papers/talks were made and submitted and
> then not long before the conference... he disappeared with no explanation
> to anyone. PMC members were forced to attend the conference (that he
> organized without consulting the PMC at all) and chair in his place on
> short notice to maintain the credibility of the project. As far as I know
> he has never apologized to or thanked those who took his place and never
> offered an explanation, he simply reappeared 6 months later and carried on
> causing trouble as usual. I have a hard time believing Pierre will ever be
> a committer or core contributor to this project so long as he continues to
> spectacularly fail at working well with others (this is just my opinion,
> I'm only one voice of many in the community). While I believe he is a
> destructive force in the community, there is nothing I can do about that,
> everyone is pretty much free to do as they please. It's up to each and
> every one of you to decide what he brings to the table and interact with
> him accordingly.
>
> People talk about PMC "hidden agendas" and other conspiracy theories but
> often the reality is that it can be difficult to find motivation to work on
> a project that is constantly critical of the work you do. When I joined
> this project there was very little infighting and contributing was a
> rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise from your peers.
> It's a warm fuzzy feeling that keeps you active at nights and on weekends
> working on something you're passionate about. For me, that passion is fast
> disappearing because of people like Pierre (he is certainly not the first
> but he is particularly vocal). It feels like I'm regularly reading
> critical emails from various community members, either of the way the
> project is run or the way the project is progressing. What I very rarely
> see is any action behind the talk; people suggest major changes and then
> carry on with their day. No one actually gets anything done. I'm sure
> some of you would replace the entire PMC given half the chance and that may
> seem like some great achievement, but eventually... you're going to have
> to actually do something tangible to keep the community happy and achieve
> the goals you speak of. If you're not doing anything tangible now, then
> you're as much a part of the problem as anyone else, take pause before you
> throw those stones. You're being critical of those who have stayed when
> others have come and gone, those who have contributed more unpaid hours
> than most.
>
> How many of you can claim that you do the work in project that would match
> what you'd like to see from a committer or PMC member? There is absolutely
> nothing stopping you from making that type of contribution right now, so
> what is the issue?
>
> For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything
> tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing
> designs and documentation), the brighter future of OFBiz starts with you.
> Be the change that you want to see, go and do something productive for the
> project instead of complaining about what others are not doing. Just to be
> clear, contributing to general discussions isn't much of a contribution,
> it's extremely rare that they result in anything positive actually
> happening.
>
> Regards
> Scott
>
>
> On 7/03/2014, at 9:00 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
> > functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
> >
> > Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
> > would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great
> opportunity
> > to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
> > communications via mailing lists.
> >
> > I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
> > tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
> > teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
> > have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find
> below a
> > small overview of starting times in different timezones:
> >
> > LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
> > Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
> > - California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> > 06:30:00PDT<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html
> >UTC-7
> > hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179>
> (U.S.A.
> > - New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> > 09:30:00EDT<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html
> >UTC-4
> > hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136>
> (United
> > Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> > 13:30:00GMT<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
> > UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
> > (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> > 14:30:00CET<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html
> >UTC+1
> > hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
> > (Russia)Thursday,
> > 13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html
> >UTC+4
> > hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438>
> (India
> > - Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> > 19:00:00IST<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html
> >UTC+5:30
> > hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
> > (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> > 20:30:00ICT<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html
> >UTC+7
> > hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22>
> (New
> > Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
> > 02:30:00NZDT<
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html
> >UTC+13
> > hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
> > Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can
> always
> > more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
> >
> > *Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: pierre.smits@orrtiz.com
> > <pi...@orrtiz.com>*
> >
> > *Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
> > *Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
> > *Duration: * 2 hr.
> >
> > *Notes: *
> >
> > *Free Conference Call*
> > Conference Dial-in Number: +31 (0) 6 35205070 (Number in the
> Netherlands)
> > Participant Access Code: 779895#
> >
> >
> >
> > <
> http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070
> >
> >
> > When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by
> the
> > # key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and
> have
> > access to the touch tone commands listed below.
> >
> >
> > Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
> > instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
> >
> >
> > I hope to see you there.
> >
> > With regards
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> > Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> > Based Manufacturing, Professional
> > Services and Retail & Trade
> > http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Hi All,
I herewith take the opportunity to remind you of the upcoming *Open
Discussion on the Health and Future of OFBiz* (3 hour warning notice) at
14:30 AMS time (CET) via teleconference.
The main agenda items are:
1. the health of the project
2. the future of the project
The teleconference is hosted by means of the services of
http://freeconferencecall.com , who provides dial-in access numbers in
various countries.
For the different timezone you might be in please find below a shortlist of
the start time in potentially your timezone:
LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
- California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
06:30:00PDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html>UTC-7
hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179> (U.S.A.
- New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
09:30:00EDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html>UTC-4
hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136> (United
Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
13:30:00GMT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
(Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
14:30:00CET<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html>UTC+1
hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
(Russia)Thursday,
13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html>UTC+4
hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438> (India
- Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
19:00:00IST<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html>UTC+5:30
hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
(Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
20:30:00ICT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html>UTC+7
hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22> (New
Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
02:30:00NZDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html>UTC+13
hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
Please remember the access code needed to participate:
*Free Conference Call*
Conference Dial-in Number: +31 (0) 6 35205070 (Number in the Netherlands)
Participant Access Code: 779895#
<http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070>
When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by the
# key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and have
access to the touch tone commands listed below.
Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
I look forward to meeting you there and an open and constructive discussion.
Regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@hotwaxmedia.com>.
I would like to mention that Pierre is the only one person in the history of the project that sent his remarks against the OFBiz PMC to the Board of the Apache Software Foundation, asking them to step-in and act versus the OFBiz PMC: he actually did it twice (2 years ago and again yesterday). Since his remarks were made of inaccurate information, baseless assertions, exaggerations, it was easy for the OFBiz PMC to clarify the situation with the Board.
However, besides being very annoying and distracting, these behaviors are against the OFBiz community's spirit: in fact we had very few persons acting like Pierre in the whole history of OFBiz.
If you are new to the project and you are reading or listening to Pierre's statements, please be aware of this information and put them in the right context.
Jacopo
On Mar 13, 2014, at 7:52 AM, Scott Gray <sc...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
>
> I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre (and because the genesis of this meeting seems to have come from a very negative perspective). Those of you who are new to the community or who he is polite to may not be aware of how rude Pierre can be. While he does do some good work from time to time I believe his presence in the community causes more harm than good. He has almost continuously attacked or worked against the PMC for the last year or two and I simply have no interest in hearing anything he has to say any longer. Almost no one seems to remember that he told the ASF he would chair an OFBiz presence at an ApacheCon a year or so ago, it was advertised, calls for papers/talks were made and submitted and then not long before the conference... he disappeared with no explanation to anyone. PMC members were forced to attend the conference (that he organized without consulting the PMC at all) and chair in his place on short notice to maintain the credibility of the project. As far as I know he has never apologized to or thanked those who took his place and never offered an explanation, he simply reappeared 6 months later and carried on causing trouble as usual. I have a hard time believing Pierre will ever be a committer or core contributor to this project so long as he continues to spectacularly fail at working well with others (this is just my opinion, I'm only one voice of many in the community). While I believe he is a destructive force in the community, there is nothing I can do about that, everyone is pretty much free to do as they please. It's up to each and every one of you to decide what he brings to the table and interact with him accordingly.
>
> People talk about PMC "hidden agendas" and other conspiracy theories but often the reality is that it can be difficult to find motivation to work on a project that is constantly critical of the work you do. When I joined this project there was very little infighting and contributing was a rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise from your peers. It's a warm fuzzy feeling that keeps you active at nights and on weekends working on something you're passionate about. For me, that passion is fast disappearing because of people like Pierre (he is certainly not the first but he is particularly vocal). It feels like I'm regularly reading critical emails from various community members, either of the way the project is run or the way the project is progressing. What I very rarely see is any action behind the talk; people suggest major changes and then carry on with their day. No one actually gets anything done. I'm sure some of you would replace the entire PMC given half the chance and that may seem like some great achievement, but eventually... you're going to have to actually do something tangible to keep the community happy and achieve the goals you speak of. If you're not doing anything tangible now, then you're as much a part of the problem as anyone else, take pause before you throw those stones. You're being critical of those who have stayed when others have come and gone, those who have contributed more unpaid hours than most.
>
> How many of you can claim that you do the work in project that would match what you'd like to see from a committer or PMC member? There is absolutely nothing stopping you from making that type of contribution right now, so what is the issue?
>
> For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing designs and documentation), the brighter future of OFBiz starts with you. Be the change that you want to see, go and do something productive for the project instead of complaining about what others are not doing. Just to be clear, contributing to general discussions isn't much of a contribution, it's extremely rare that they result in anything positive actually happening.
>
> Regards
> Scott
>
>
> On 7/03/2014, at 9:00 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
>> functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
>>
>> Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
>> would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great opportunity
>> to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
>> communications via mailing lists.
>>
>> I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
>> tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
>> teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
>> have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find below a
>> small overview of starting times in different timezones:
>>
>> LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
>> Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
>> - California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 06:30:00PDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html>UTC-7
>> hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179> (U.S.A.
>> - New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 09:30:00EDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html>UTC-4
>> hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136> (United
>> Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 13:30:00GMT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
>> UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
>> (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 14:30:00CET<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html>UTC+1
>> hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
>> (Russia)Thursday,
>> 13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html>UTC+4
>> hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438> (India
>> - Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 19:00:00IST<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html>UTC+5:30
>> hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
>> (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 20:30:00ICT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html>UTC+7
>> hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22> (New
>> Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
>> 02:30:00NZDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html>UTC+13
>> hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
>> Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can always
>> more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
>>
>> *Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: pierre.smits@orrtiz.com
>> <pi...@orrtiz.com>*
>>
>> *Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
>> *Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
>> *Duration: * 2 hr.
>>
>> *Notes: *
>>
>> *Free Conference Call*
>> Conference Dial-in Number: +31 (0) 6 35205070 (Number in the Netherlands)
>> Participant Access Code: 779895#
>>
>>
>>
>> <http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070>
>>
>> When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by the
>> # key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and have
>> access to the touch tone commands listed below.
>>
>>
>> Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
>> instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
>>
>>
>> I hope to see you there.
>>
>> With regards
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by "David E. Jones" <de...@me.com>.
Thank you Scott. This is an inspiring reminder of how things actually work in the ASF. Apache OFBiz is not managed top-down, it is managed bottom-up based on actual effort and merit. Discussions really only matter if they lead up to an effort that results in actual code/doc/etc changes.
Pierre's message to the Board is a great example of misunderstanding this guiding principle, so I responded in more detail in that thread, but just wanted to throw in my +1 for what you wrote here.
-David
On Mar 12, 2014, at 11:52 PM, Scott Gray <sc...@hotwaxmedia.com> wrote:
>
> I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre (and because the genesis of this meeting seems to have come from a very negative perspective). Those of you who are new to the community or who he is polite to may not be aware of how rude Pierre can be. While he does do some good work from time to time I believe his presence in the community causes more harm than good. He has almost continuously attacked or worked against the PMC for the last year or two and I simply have no interest in hearing anything he has to say any longer. Almost no one seems to remember that he told the ASF he would chair an OFBiz presence at an ApacheCon a year or so ago, it was advertised, calls for papers/talks were made and submitted and then not long before the conference... he disappeared with no explanation to anyone. PMC members were forced to attend the conference (that he organized without consulting the PMC at all) and chair in his place on short notice to maintain the credibility of the project. As far as I know he has never apologized to or thanked those who took his place and never offered an explanation, he simply reappeared 6 months later and carried on causing trouble as usual. I have a hard time believing Pierre will ever be a committer or core contributor to this project so long as he continues to spectacularly fail at working well with others (this is just my opinion, I'm only one voice of many in the community). While I believe he is a destructive force in the community, there is nothing I can do about that, everyone is pretty much free to do as they please. It's up to each and every one of you to decide what he brings to the table and interact with him accordingly.
>
> People talk about PMC "hidden agendas" and other conspiracy theories but often the reality is that it can be difficult to find motivation to work on a project that is constantly critical of the work you do. When I joined this project there was very little infighting and contributing was a rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise from your peers. It's a warm fuzzy feeling that keeps you active at nights and on weekends working on something you're passionate about. For me, that passion is fast disappearing because of people like Pierre (he is certainly not the first but he is particularly vocal). It feels like I'm regularly reading critical emails from various community members, either of the way the project is run or the way the project is progressing. What I very rarely see is any action behind the talk; people suggest major changes and then carry on with their day. No one actually gets anything done. I'm sure some of you would replace the entire PMC given half the chance and that may seem like some great achievement, but eventually... you're going to have to actually do something tangible to keep the community happy and achieve the goals you speak of. If you're not doing anything tangible now, then you're as much a part of the problem as anyone else, take pause before you throw those stones. You're being critical of those who have stayed when others have come and gone, those who have contributed more unpaid hours than most.
>
> How many of you can claim that you do the work in project that would match what you'd like to see from a committer or PMC member? There is absolutely nothing stopping you from making that type of contribution right now, so what is the issue?
>
> For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing designs and documentation), the brighter future of OFBiz starts with you. Be the change that you want to see, go and do something productive for the project instead of complaining about what others are not doing. Just to be clear, contributing to general discussions isn't much of a contribution, it's extremely rare that they result in anything positive actually happening.
>
> Regards
> Scott
>
>
> On 7/03/2014, at 9:00 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
>> functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
>>
>> Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
>> would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great opportunity
>> to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
>> communications via mailing lists.
>>
>> I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
>> tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
>> teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
>> have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find below a
>> small overview of starting times in different timezones:
>>
>> LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
>> Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
>> - California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 06:30:00PDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html>UTC-7
>> hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179> (U.S.A.
>> - New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 09:30:00EDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html>UTC-4
>> hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136> (United
>> Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 13:30:00GMT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
>> UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
>> (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 14:30:00CET<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html>UTC+1
>> hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
>> (Russia)Thursday,
>> 13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html>UTC+4
>> hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438> (India
>> - Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 19:00:00IST<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html>UTC+5:30
>> hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
>> (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
>> 20:30:00ICT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html>UTC+7
>> hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22> (New
>> Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
>> 02:30:00NZDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html>UTC+13
>> hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
>> Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can always
>> more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
>>
>> *Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: pierre.smits@orrtiz.com
>> <pi...@orrtiz.com>*
>>
>> *Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
>> *Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
>> *Duration: * 2 hr.
>>
>> *Notes: *
>>
>> *Free Conference Call*
>> Conference Dial-in Number: +31 (0) 6 35205070 (Number in the Netherlands)
>> Participant Access Code: 779895#
>>
>>
>>
>> <http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070>
>>
>> When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by the
>> # key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and have
>> access to the touch tone commands listed below.
>>
>>
>> Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
>> instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
>>
>>
>> I hope to see you there.
>>
>> With regards
>>
>> Pierre Smits
>>
>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>> Services and Retail & Trade
>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Scott Gray <sc...@hotwaxmedia.com>.
I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre (and because the genesis of this meeting seems to have come from a very negative perspective). Those of you who are new to the community or who he is polite to may not be aware of how rude Pierre can be. While he does do some good work from time to time I believe his presence in the community causes more harm than good. He has almost continuously attacked or worked against the PMC for the last year or two and I simply have no interest in hearing anything he has to say any longer. Almost no one seems to remember that he told the ASF he would chair an OFBiz presence at an ApacheCon a year or so ago, it was advertised, calls for papers/talks were made and submitted and then not long before the conference... he disappeared with no explanation to anyone. PMC members were forced to attend the conference (that he organized without consulting the PMC at all) and chair in his place on short notice to maintain the credibility of the project. As far as I know he has never apologized to or thanked those who took his place and never offered an explanation, he simply reappeared 6 months later and carried on causing trouble as usual. I have a hard time believing Pierre will ever be a committer or core contributor to this project so long as he continues to spectacularly fail at working well with others (this is just my opinion, I'm only one voice of many in the community). While I believe he is a destructive force in the community, there is nothing I can do about that, everyone is pretty much free to do as they please. It's up to each and every one of you to decide what he brings to the table and interact with him accordingly.
People talk about PMC "hidden agendas" and other conspiracy theories but often the reality is that it can be difficult to find motivation to work on a project that is constantly critical of the work you do. When I joined this project there was very little infighting and contributing was a rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise from your peers. It's a warm fuzzy feeling that keeps you active at nights and on weekends working on something you're passionate about. For me, that passion is fast disappearing because of people like Pierre (he is certainly not the first but he is particularly vocal). It feels like I'm regularly reading critical emails from various community members, either of the way the project is run or the way the project is progressing. What I very rarely see is any action behind the talk; people suggest major changes and then carry on with their day. No one actually gets anything done. I'm sure some of you would replace the entire PMC given half the chance and that may seem like some great achievement, but eventually... you're going to have to actually do something tangible to keep the community happy and achieve the goals you speak of. If you're not doing anything tangible now, then you're as much a part of the problem as anyone else, take pause before you throw those stones. You're being critical of those who have stayed when others have come and gone, those who have contributed more unpaid hours than most.
How many of you can claim that you do the work in project that would match what you'd like to see from a committer or PMC member? There is absolutely nothing stopping you from making that type of contribution right now, so what is the issue?
For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing designs and documentation), the brighter future of OFBiz starts with you. Be the change that you want to see, go and do something productive for the project instead of complaining about what others are not doing. Just to be clear, contributing to general discussions isn't much of a contribution, it's extremely rare that they result in anything positive actually happening.
Regards
Scott
On 7/03/2014, at 9:00 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
> functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
>
> Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
> would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great opportunity
> to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
> communications via mailing lists.
>
> I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
> tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
> teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
> have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find below a
> small overview of starting times in different timezones:
>
> LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
> Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
> - California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 06:30:00PDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html>UTC-7
> hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179> (U.S.A.
> - New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 09:30:00EDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html>UTC-4
> hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136> (United
> Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 13:30:00GMT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
> UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
> (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 14:30:00CET<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html>UTC+1
> hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
> (Russia)Thursday,
> 13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html>UTC+4
> hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438> (India
> - Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 19:00:00IST<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html>UTC+5:30
> hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
> (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 20:30:00ICT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html>UTC+7
> hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22> (New
> Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
> 02:30:00NZDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html>UTC+13
> hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
> Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can always
> more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
>
> *Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: pierre.smits@orrtiz.com
> <pi...@orrtiz.com>*
>
> *Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
> *Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
> *Duration: * 2 hr.
>
> *Notes: *
>
> *Free Conference Call*
> Conference Dial-in Number: +31 (0) 6 35205070 (Number in the Netherlands)
> Participant Access Code: 779895#
>
>
>
> <http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070>
>
> When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by the
> # key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and have
> access to the touch tone commands listed below.
>
>
> Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
> instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
>
>
> I hope to see you there.
>
> With regards
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Scott Gray <sc...@hotwaxmedia.com>.
I won't be attending simply because it is organized by Pierre (and because the genesis of this meeting seems to have come from a very negative perspective). Those of you who are new to the community or who he is polite to may not be aware of how rude Pierre can be. While he does do some good work from time to time I believe his presence in the community causes more harm than good. He has almost continuously attacked or worked against the PMC for the last year or two and I simply have no interest in hearing anything he has to say any longer. Almost no one seems to remember that he told the ASF he would chair an OFBiz presence at an ApacheCon a year or so ago, it was advertised, calls for papers/talks were made and submitted and then not long before the conference... he disappeared with no explanation to anyone. PMC members were forced to attend the conference (that he organized without consulting the PMC at all) and chair in his place on short notice to maintain the credibility of the project. As far as I know he has never apologized to or thanked those who took his place and never offered an explanation, he simply reappeared 6 months later and carried on causing trouble as usual. I have a hard time believing Pierre will ever be a committer or core contributor to this project so long as he continues to spectacularly fail at working well with others (this is just my opinion, I'm only one voice of many in the community). While I believe he is a destructive force in the community, there is nothing I can do about that, everyone is pretty much free to do as they please. It's up to each and every one of you to decide what he brings to the table and interact with him accordingly.
People talk about PMC "hidden agendas" and other conspiracy theories but often the reality is that it can be difficult to find motivation to work on a project that is constantly critical of the work you do. When I joined this project there was very little infighting and contributing was a rewarding experience that earned you respect and praise from your peers. It's a warm fuzzy feeling that keeps you active at nights and on weekends working on something you're passionate about. For me, that passion is fast disappearing because of people like Pierre (he is certainly not the first but he is particularly vocal). It feels like I'm regularly reading critical emails from various community members, either of the way the project is run or the way the project is progressing. What I very rarely see is any action behind the talk; people suggest major changes and then carry on with their day. No one actually gets anything done. I'm sure some of you would replace the entire PMC given half the chance and that may seem like some great achievement, but eventually... you're going to have to actually do something tangible to keep the community happy and achieve the goals you speak of. If you're not doing anything tangible now, then you're as much a part of the problem as anyone else, take pause before you throw those stones. You're being critical of those who have stayed when others have come and gone, those who have contributed more unpaid hours than most.
How many of you can claim that you do the work in project that would match what you'd like to see from a committer or PMC member? There is absolutely nothing stopping you from making that type of contribution right now, so what is the issue?
For those of you who have an opinion but aren't actually doing anything tangible (commit reviews, patch reviews, ticket research, contributing designs and documentation), the brighter future of OFBiz starts with you. Be the change that you want to see, go and do something productive for the project instead of complaining about what others are not doing. Just to be clear, contributing to general discussions isn't much of a contribution, it's extremely rare that they result in anything positive actually happening.
Regards
Scott
On 7/03/2014, at 9:00 PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I invite you to join me and participate in an open discussion on the
> functioning and future of OFbiz via a teleconference on March 13, 2014.
>
> Share your thoughts and insights on how you feel it going and what you
> would like to see addressed in the project. Plus, it is a great opportunity
> to get to know your fellow community member better than just through
> communications via mailing lists.
>
> I have set up a conference space through www.freeconferencecall.com and
> tried to find an optimum sweet spot for the time slot to convene this
> teleconference that will minimise the inconvenience for most. Therefore I
> have chosen to set the starting time at 14:30 AMS time. Please find below a
> small overview of starting times in different timezones:
>
> LocationLocal timeTime zoneUTC offsetLos
> Angeles<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137> (U.S.A.
> - California)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 06:30:00PDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/pdt.html>UTC-7
> hoursNew York <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=179> (U.S.A.
> - New York)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 09:30:00EDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/edt.html>UTC-4
> hoursLondon <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=136> (United
> Kingdom - England)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 13:30:00GMT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/gmt.html>
> UTCAmsterdam <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=16>
> (Netherlands)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 14:30:00CET<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html>UTC+1
> hourMoscow <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=166>
> (Russia)Thursday,
> 13 March 2014, 17:30:00MSK<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/msk.html>UTC+4
> hoursBangalore <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=438> (India
> - Karnataka)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 19:00:00IST<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ist.html>UTC+5:30
> hoursBangkok <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=28>
> (Thailand)Thursday, 13 March 2014,
> 20:30:00ICT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/asia/ict.html>UTC+7
> hoursAuckland <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=22> (New
> Zealand)Friday, 14 March 2014,
> 02:30:00NZDT<http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/pacific/nzdt.html>UTC+13
> hoursCorresponding UTC (GMT)Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:30:00
> Please find below some details about how to participate, but you can always
> more info on the website of http://freeconferencecall.com
>
> *Conference Invite Details* Instructions*From: pierre.smits@orrtiz.com
> <pi...@orrtiz.com>*
>
> *Subject: * The Future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
> *Date & time: * 2014-03-13 14:30 (GMT+01:00)
> *Duration: * 2 hr.
>
> *Notes: *
>
> *Free Conference Call*
> Conference Dial-in Number: +31 (0) 6 35205070 (Number in the Netherlands)
> Participant Access Code: 779895#
>
>
>
> <http://www.freeconferencecall.com/fcci/internationalnumbers.aspx?lang=NL&altlang=EN&phonenumber=+31%20(0)%206%2035205070>
>
> When prompted enter the access code that has been assigned, followed by the
> # key. Once connected to the conference, you will be able to talk and have
> access to the touch tone commands listed below.
>
>
> Participant Feature KeysExit - exit the callInstructions - conference
> instructionsMute/Unmute - caller controlled muting
>
>
> I hope to see you there.
>
> With regards
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
> Based Manufacturing, Professional
> Services and Retail & Trade
> http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.
The recent answers from Ean and Anil on how they use OFBiz w/o its UI made me thought.
The current project I'm just beginning to work on wants to go even further. The desire is to use OFBiz only as a service engine.
I guess the data model will have to be touched. But for sure the UI will be completely bypassed.
So, it seems this project is going in the same direction than Ean and Anil. Notably what Ean says in his 1st and last section below.
Most of us know now that OFBiz OOTB UI is more a demo/POC to show all OFBiz possibilities. Moreover this UI has not been build from initial
requirements but built steps by steps.
Mostly when contributions from providers's clients allowed it. So it lacks consistency and does not offer a good UX.
Nevertheless, as a long time committer and PMC member, I believe it's our duty to maintain this UI and the tools which allow to build it.
Because it has precisely the merit of showing to new comers what you can do whit OFBiz.
And yes there are new comers starting everyday (I monitor the Nabble forum subscriptions whose give an idea about that)
For instance, in OFBiz using the Flat Grey Theme allows to set an UI in Arab or Hebrew (RTL languages) on 2 clicks.
Also you can use it with a Japanese or Chinese UI. I'm not sure other open source ERPs allow the same...
So I believe we don't need to invest to modernise the UI using tools like Bootstrap, Backbone or what not.
The last effort we made to have all js using jQuery was enough in this direction IMO.
What we need 1st is to take into account the backlog of pending Jira issues with contributions. And I think Jacopo for his initiative!
Prune that and continue to strengthen OFBiz in the field of security (there are a still few pending Jiras at
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-1525)
Of course there are some parts which could be enhanced.
I believe most can be found at https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OFBADMIN/New+Features+Roadmap+-+Living+Document
It's a good place to put new ideas if you have. BTW, maybe we miss handling permissions using Shiro there...
Now maybe I did not really answer the question about my motivation, but at least it's my current state of mind
Jacques
Le 21/03/2014 22:28, Ean Schuessler a écrit :
> ----- "Pierre Smits"<pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Re: I welcome the suggestion made by David to have each of us explain
>> our own motive for participating in this project.
> We use OFBiz because it is the most mature Free Software solution we
> have found for dealing with "real" e-commerce that has inventory
> and manufacturing needs. We no longer use OFBiz as a solution for the
> presentation or content management layer because we feel its
> capabilities in that space are outclassed by other solutions. We are
> starting to do a lot more mobile and HTML5 based interfaces that
> rely on OFBiz for handling the underlying business processes.
>
> The combination of the license and capabilities are our motivations
> for using the tool. We also have a lot of experience with the OFBiz
> internal structure and are hesitant to start over.
>
> Our current focus is on building solutions around the tool rather
> than trying to innovate in the tool itself. The capabilities we
> utilize in OFBiz are well established so we have not had to make
> many general purpose modifications. We have also become much more
> aggressive about "mashing up" the "best of breed" to achieve
> solutions rather than trying to duplicate capabilities from scratch.
>
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Ean Schuessler <ea...@brainfood.com>.
----- "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Re: I welcome the suggestion made by David to have each of us explain
> our own motive for participating in this project.
We use OFBiz because it is the most mature Free Software solution we
have found for dealing with "real" e-commerce that has inventory
and manufacturing needs. We no longer use OFBiz as a solution for the
presentation or content management layer because we feel its
capabilities in that space are outclassed by other solutions. We are
starting to do a lot more mobile and HTML5 based interfaces that
rely on OFBiz for handling the underlying business processes.
The combination of the license and capabilities are our motivations
for using the tool. We also have a lot of experience with the OFBiz
internal structure and are hesitant to start over.
Our current focus is on building solutions around the tool rather
than trying to innovate in the tool itself. The capabilities we
utilize in OFBiz are well established so we have not had to make
many general purpose modifications. We have also become much more
aggressive about "mashing up" the "best of breed" to achieve
solutions rather than trying to duplicate capabilities from scratch.
--
Ean Schuessler, CTO
ean@brainfood.com
214-720-0700 x 315
Brainfood, Inc.
http://www.brainfood.com
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Maybe it is superfluous to add, but better safe than sorry:
Re: I welcome the suggestion made by David to have each of us explain our
own motive for participating in this project. So, what is your personal
mission statement with respect to your involvement in this project?
But I suggest to expand that with: what do you feel the responsibilities
are that come with the privileges of the roles in this project?
Please do this in the light of forward looking, the future of OFBiz. What
everybody has done in the past stands and is persisted (and recognized) in
code, documentation, mailing lists, JIRA, viewsvn, etc.
Regards,
Pierre Smits
*ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
Services & Solutions for Cloud-
Based Manufacturing, Professional
Services and Retail & Trade
http://www.orrtiz.com
Re: The future of OFBiz - Open Discussion
Posted by Paul Piper <pp...@ilscipio.com>.
@David: You asked me about my personal motivation, so here it is:
I honestly believe that, even though OFBiz has a market at this moment, it
isn’t growing at the pace it would need to sustain itself for a long while.
That isn’t a problem of the software itself, the architecture is great and
the quality is astounding. In order to keep up with competition it will have
to go through various changes in the near future, however. For all this we
would require a growing community with more active committers – the current
state is, however, a declining one. With the current outset, I would give
OFBiz 3-5 more years until either the community has decided to opt out of
further commitment, or people have moved on to other frameworks entirely. I
love OFBiz, but it is this that I fear the most.
Underneath it all, I have learnt that the OFBiz community isn’t a
particularly friendly one. This wouldn’t be a problem if the documentation
was up to such a level that you wouldn’t rely on the community, but that is,
unfortunately, not the case. Understandably, the problem goes full circle –
it requires a strong community to either work with new members, or create
the necessary documentation to get people started, but we have to begin
somewhere.
That’s why I brought it up earlier in the message list. I am not aiming for
further personal involvement or even as far as a PMC membership (I honestly
wouldn’t even know if I had the time to commit to this). I do, however, fear
that my original two points “Not enough recognition for contributors”,
“static PMC members” are the real dangers here and thus far I haven’t
received a single word back on this. With the experience on how such a
harmless thread even went down – and how Pierre was also assaulted, I would
unfortunately, argue that there lies some truth in what I said. I do
encourage, or hope, however, that the PMC will eventually find ways to
change some of their behavior (mainly: give structure and support, encourage
participation).
How the PMC relies on HWM employees wasn’t even on my original list – just
an added afterthought or possible explanation to its stagnating form.
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