You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to users@cocoon.apache.org by Christian Haul <ha...@dvs1.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de> on 2003/05/19 12:47:01 UTC
Cocoon Stammtisch Frankfurt/M Wednesday
Anyone interested in meeting in real life on wednesday evening (21.05) in
Frankfurt/M (Germany) ?
Nicola Ken will be there as well.
Maybe someone from FFM could suggest a location? It should be easily
accessible by public transport and close to the center.
Chris.
--
C h r i s t i a n H a u l
haul@informatik.tu-darmstadt.de
fingerprint: 99B0 1D9D 7919 644A 4837 7D73 FEF9 6856 335A 9E08
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-users-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: cocoon-users-help@xml.apache.org
Re: [OT] What is OSS [was: Cocoon Stammtisch]
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
on 5/20/03 2:08 AM Matthew Langham wrote:
>>WRONG! IT IS NOT! Open Source != "I get the source code to look at".
>>
>>http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php
>>
>
>
> Of course you are right in that is how OS is defined "by the book". I was
> only implying that the actual term is often used very differently (and
> wrongly)!
Niclas asked "is this open source" and you replied "yes".
Let's not fight confusion by injecting even more confusion.
--
Stefano.
Re: [OT] What is OSS [was: Cocoon Stammtisch]
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
on 5/20/03 8:50 PM Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> How to keep marketing people out of our business??
Microsoft is trying hard:
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-268889.html
Hey, maybe they will succeed and all marketing bullshit will live in a
small niche of commercial-only software with a microsoft
commercially-viral license and get out of the way.
oh, at that time "microsoft" will be really "micro".
What a happy day that would be.
too bad marketing bullshit follows where the money is and there will be
more money at stake in OSS suppoert than in selling packaged bits.
so, learn to live with it.
--
Stefano.
Re: [OT] What is OSS [was: Cocoon Stammtisch]
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Monday 19 May 2003 10:58 pm, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> on 5/20/03 1:22 AM Matthew Langham wrote:
> >>If I buy a product, that comes with source code (plenty of them), but not
> >>allowed to re-distribute/resell, is this Open Source Software??
> >
> > Yes.
>
> WRONG! IT IS NOT! Open Source != "I get the source code to look at".
So I thought... On top of it; the name OpenSMS also gives some misconception,
as did DEC's OpenVMS.
Well,
How to keep marketing people out of our business??
Niclas
Re: [OT] What is OSS [was: Cocoon Stammtisch]
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20/05/2003 8:58 Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> on 5/20/03 1:22 AM Matthew Langham wrote:
>>However, even in this case, being able to purchase the source may also be an
>>advantage when compared to a commercial product that comes without the
>>source.
>
>
> True, but the term "open source" (even if semantically very weak, I
> admit) is *much* more than having access to the source code and this is
> because having access to the source code *alone* does not allow a
> community to build around a codebase.
Right. We own some commercial licenses of XXE, so we get the source
code. We haven't even bothered to look at it, since we know we'll only
get an updated version upon the next release. In-between releases,
there's no (read-only) CVS with commit messages - just great silence.
Using open source as an excuse to poor API documentation or as a cheapo
escrow method really sucks. I'd rather pay more and get a decent manual,
managed release scheme, and serious support from a proprietary software
vendor, then.
That doesn't mean XXE is a bad product, it offers good value for money,
but the "you get the source if you pay" scheme is just plain marcom-talk.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
RE: [OT] What is OSS [was: Cocoon Stammtisch]
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agsoftware.dnsalias.com>.
Andrew Savory dijo:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, 20 May 2003, Matthew Langham wrote:
>
>> > WRONG! IT IS NOT! Open Source != "I get the source code to look at".
>> >
>> > http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php
>> >
>>
>> Of course you are right in that is how OS is defined "by the book". I
>> was only implying that the actual term is often used very differently
>> (and wrongly)!
>
> This confusion is why the die hard advocates say "don't say Open Source
> say OSI Open Source", since various marketing organisations co-opted the
> term "Open Source" and it can't be trademarked properly to protect it.
>
>> > The term "open source" is used flexibly only by those who don't know
>> about it, but OSI does not approve licenses 'flexibly' at all.
>>
>> Yes OSI says this - correct. I was not implying differently. In
>> particular I was not implying that the mentioned use of "open source"
>> conformed to anything.
>
> Better yet is the definition "Free Software", and the Free Software
> Foundation definition at 4 points is far more readable than the OSI
> definition at 10 (!). Given that most definitions are derived from the
> FSF one, it's a good starting place.
>
> The term Free Software refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of
> a program:
>
> * The freedom to run the program, for any purpose.
>
> * The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your
> needs. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
>
> * The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbour.
>
> * The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to
> the public, so that the whole community benefits. Access to the source
> code is a precondition for this.
To add some more info, here is some links to the GNU:
Categories of Free and Non-Free Software:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/categories.html
Licenses:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html
Antonio Gallardo
RE: [OT] What is OSS [was: Cocoon Stammtisch]
Posted by Andrew Savory <an...@luminas.co.uk>.
Hi,
On Tue, 20 May 2003, Matthew Langham wrote:
> > WRONG! IT IS NOT! Open Source != "I get the source code to look at".
> >
> > http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php
> >
>
> Of course you are right in that is how OS is defined "by the book". I was
> only implying that the actual term is often used very differently (and
> wrongly)!
This confusion is why the die hard advocates say "don't say Open Source
say OSI Open Source", since various marketing organisations co-opted the
term "Open Source" and it can't be trademarked properly to protect it.
> > The term "open source" is used flexibly only by those who don't know
> > about it, but OSI does not approve licenses 'flexibly' at all.
>
> Yes OSI says this - correct. I was not implying differently. In particular I
> was not implying that the mentioned use of "open source" conformed to
> anything.
Better yet is the definition "Free Software", and the Free Software
Foundation definition at 4 points is far more readable than the OSI
definition at 10 (!). Given that most definitions are derived from the FSF
one, it's a good starting place.
The term Free Software refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of a
program:
* The freedom to run the program, for any purpose.
* The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs.
Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
* The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbour.
* The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the
public, so that the whole community benefits. Access to the source code is
a precondition for this.
Andrew.
--
Andrew Savory Email: andrew@luminas.co.uk
Managing Director Tel: +44 (0)870 741 6658
Luminas Internet Applications Fax: +44 (0)700 598 1135
This is not an official statement or order. Web: www.luminas.co.uk
RE: [OT] What is OSS [was: Cocoon Stammtisch]
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
>
> WRONG! IT IS NOT! Open Source != "I get the source code to look at".
>
> http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php
>
Of course you are right in that is how OS is defined "by the book". I was
only implying that the actual term is often used very differently (and
wrongly)!
> The term "open source" is used flexibly only by those who don't know
> about it, but OSI does not approve licenses 'flexibly' at all.
Yes OSI says this - correct. I was not implying differently. In particular I
was not implying that the mentioned use of "open source" conformed to
anything.
Matthew
Re: [OT] What is OSS [was: Cocoon Stammtisch]
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
on 5/20/03 1:22 AM Matthew Langham wrote:
>>If I buy a product, that comes with source code (plenty of them), but not
>>allowed to re-distribute/resell, is this Open Source Software??
>
>
> Yes.
WRONG! IT IS NOT! Open Source != "I get the source code to look at".
http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php
1. Free Redistribution
The license shall not restrict any party from selling or giving away the
software as a component of an aggregate software distribution containing
programs from several different sources. The license shall not require a
royalty or other fee for such sale.
> The ("I can use this any way I want") term does not say a thing about
> what you can then actually do with the stuff (or even whether you had to pay
> for everything in the first place). A common misconception.
uh?
> Today it is used very "flexibly" and the only "fact" you can read out of the
> use is that you get the source code.
The term "open source" is used flexibly only by those who don't know
about it, but OSI does not approve licenses 'flexibly' at all.
>>FYI, OpenSMS portray in their material "OSS license", but I got
>>the news today
>>that;
>>1. The product cost Euro 30.000.
>>2. Comes with source
>>3. Not allowed to resell the product, only the Value-Add.
>>4. Not allowed to redistribute the source.
This is not even close to be "open source" software. It violates point
#1, #3, #4, #6, #7, #8 of the OSI definition.
> The truth is in the licence (see also: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/).
well, the truth is in the definition, not in the licenses. those are
simply the licenses that *pass thru* the definition filtering.
> However, even in this case, being able to purchase the source may also be an
> advantage when compared to a commercial product that comes without the
> source.
True, but the term "open source" (even if semantically very weak, I
admit) is *much* more than having access to the source code and this is
because having access to the source code *alone* does not allow a
community to build around a codebase.
>From that POV, OSI guarantees that your licensing scheme can allow your
software to be a petri disk for community building around it, basically
guaranteeing the individuals enough freedom (yes, freedom!) to keep the
software going even if the original dies out or is shut down.
--
Stefano.
Re: [OT] What is OSS [was: Cocoon Stammtisch]
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
> > I think that is "Unlauterer Wettbewerb" (unfair competition).
>
> Unfair? no, it's just a license. You can state anything (legal) you want
> in your license. You can say that you don't allow your software to be
> used on computers that don't have an Intel CPU intalled, and that you
> don't allow this to be installed on computers that *previously* had
> linux installed or that have have a black case.
Such licenses would probably simply be invalid (or illegal) in Germany.
I meant this: in my opinion it is unfair competition to label software as
"Open Source" and sell it only with a Closed Source license.
Andreas
Re: [OT] What is OSS [was: Cocoon Stammtisch]
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
on 5/20/03 2:42 AM Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
>>FYI, OpenSMS portray in their material "OSS license", but I got the news
>
> today
>
>>that;
>>1. The product cost Euro 30.000.
>>2. Comes with source
>>3. Not allowed to resell the product, only the Value-Add.
>>4. Not allowed to redistribute the source.
>
>
> I think that is "Unlauterer Wettbewerb" (unfair competition).
Unfair? no, it's just a license. You can state anything (legal) you want
in your license. You can say that you don't allow your software to be
used on computers that don't have an Intel CPU intalled, and that you
don't allow this to be installed on computers that *previously* had
linux installed or that have have a black case.
Up to you.
Of course, not all licenses are smart.
--
Stefano.
Re: [OT] What is OSS [was: Cocoon Stammtisch]
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
> FYI, OpenSMS portray in their material "OSS license", but I got the news
today
> that;
> 1. The product cost Euro 30.000.
> 2. Comes with source
> 3. Not allowed to resell the product, only the Value-Add.
> 4. Not allowed to redistribute the source.
I think that is "Unlauterer Wettbewerb" (unfair competition).
Andreas
RE: [OT] What is OSS [was: Cocoon Stammtisch]
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
> If I buy a product, that comes with source code (plenty of them), but not
> allowed to re-distribute/resell, is this Open Source Software??
Yes. The ("I can use this any way I want") term does not say a thing about
what you can then actually do with the stuff (or even whether you had to pay
for everything in the first place). A common misconception.
Today it is used very "flexibly" and the only "fact" you can read out of the
use is that you get the source code.
>
> FYI, OpenSMS portray in their material "OSS license", but I got
> the news today
> that;
> 1. The product cost Euro 30.000.
> 2. Comes with source
> 3. Not allowed to resell the product, only the Value-Add.
> 4. Not allowed to redistribute the source.
>
The truth is in the licence (see also: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/).
However, even in this case, being able to purchase the source may also be an
advantage when compared to a commercial product that comes without the
source.
Matthew
--
Open Source Group Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=================================================================
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 mlangham@s-und-n.de - http://www.s-und-n.de
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Cocoon book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
Weblogs:
http://radio.weblogs.com/0103021/
http://www.oreillynet.com/weblogs/author/1014
=================================================================
[OT] What is OSS [was: Cocoon Stammtisch]
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Monday 19 May 2003 11:06 am, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Moreover, since just because this _is_ OSS, nobody has the right to urge
> you to do something, unless you have some support contract with them. In
> that case, this is no more OSS, but a business relationship.
Hmmm.... Question to the community;
If I buy a product, that comes with source code (plenty of them), but not
allowed to re-distribute/resell, is this Open Source Software??
FYI, OpenSMS portray in their material "OSS license", but I got the news today
that;
1. The product cost Euro 30.000.
2. Comes with source
3. Not allowed to resell the product, only the Value-Add.
4. Not allowed to redistribute the source.
Niclas
Re: Cocoon Stammtisch Frankfurt/M Wednesday
Posted by Torsten Knodt <to...@datas-world.de>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
> >>But if you bug long enough, you get commit access so that you can patch
> >>stuff yourself ;-) so there is hope.
> >Bad, very bad. It's like root access. A half day after you have it, you
> > get phone calls at night to do something, in the callers opinion, really
> > urgent.
> Fortunately, that's totally false ;-)
> See the second paragraph at http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/who.html : from
> my own experience, I can tell you than in 2 years of committership,
> personal mails for Cocoon related questions is less than 10.
Good value.
> Moreover, since just because this _is_ OSS, nobody has the right to urge
> you to do something, unless you have some support contract with them. In
> that case, this is no more OSS, but a business relationship.
I know. I only had someone who forgot, that a long time ago, someone invented
timezones. ;) Fun was, that he was only on exchange. But the answer of me was
more a joke.
> Ah, and I don't know people reading their mails while sleeping. If there
> are, please stand up ;-)
For answers to questions of my mails and some mail accounts, I call festival
via maildrop to inform me of the new mail.
Regards
Torsten
- --
Domain in provider transition, hope for smoothness. Planed date is 24.7.2003
pub 1024D/4CD29A2C 2001-01-12 Torsten Knodt <to...@datas-world.de>
Schl.-Fingerabdruck = A2B1 C626 F819 7C58 B2F9 4F4C BF16 64B6 4CD2 9A2C
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQE+yThAvxZktkzSmiwRAlUTAJ4wiIx8L7qIrcMsSrOTMOcjuVyIMQCfZ7b/
N+qimsvvfQO/fyhgGbhVcyQ=
=FT4f
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Re: Cocoon Stammtisch Frankfurt/M Wednesday
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@anyware-tech.com>.
Torsten Knodt wrote:
>>>>Then I'd suggest the Hardrock Cafe, as it has good food and drinks - it
>>>>is located next to the Stock Exchange, which in turn is next to
>>>>Frankfurt Hauptwache.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Good suggestion. I'll be there. I'm interested to know who keeps my
>>>patches in the queue so long. ;)
>>>
>>>
>>Mr. Lazy Ass ;-)
>>
>>
>>Welcome to open source.
>>
>>
>Nothing new for me.
>
Really so (see below) ?
>>But if you bug long enough, you get commit access so that you can patch
>>stuff yourself ;-) so there is hope.
>>
>>
>Bad, very bad. It's like root access. A half day after you have it, you get phone calls at night to do something, in the callers opinion, really urgent.
>
Fortunately, that's totally false ;-)
See the second paragraph at http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/who.html : from
my own experience, I can tell you than in 2 years of committership,
personal mails for Cocoon related questions is less than 10.
Moreover, since just because this _is_ OSS, nobody has the right to urge
you to do something, unless you have some support contract with them. In
that case, this is no more OSS, but a business relationship.
Ah, and I don't know people reading their mails while sleeping. If there
are, please stand up ;-)
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: Cocoon Stammtisch Frankfurt/M Wednesday
Posted by Torsten Knodt <to...@datas-world.de>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
> >>Then I'd suggest the Hardrock Cafe, as it has good food and drinks - it
> >>is located next to the Stock Exchange, which in turn is next to
> >>Frankfurt Hauptwache.
> > Good suggestion. I'll be there. I'm interested to know who keeps my
> > patches in the queue so long. ;)
> Mr. Lazy Ass ;-)
> Welcome to open source.
Nothing new for me.
> But if you bug long enough, you get commit access so that you can patch
> stuff yourself ;-) so there is hope.
Bad, very bad. It's like root access. A half day after you have it, you get
phone calls at night to do something, in the callers opinion, really urgent.
- --
Domain in provider transition, hope for smoothness. Planed date is 24.7.2003
pub 1024D/4CD29A2C 2001-01-12 Torsten Knodt <to...@datas-world.de>
Schl.-Fingerabdruck = A2B1 C626 F819 7C58 B2F9 4F4C BF16 64B6 4CD2 9A2C
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQE+yScEvxZktkzSmiwRAmjWAJ0Tj2p46JExQYHp1WsxTzZ4r+Lp/gCgmqJ1
875CHYiZKoE+DP12LsPfTa0=
=UVxe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Re: Cocoon Stammtisch Frankfurt/M Wednesday
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
on 5/19/03 9:30 AM Torsten Knodt wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>>>Anyone interested in meeting in real life on wednesday evening (21.05) in
>>>Frankfurt/M (Germany) ?
>>>Nicola Ken will be there as well.
>>>Maybe someone from FFM could suggest a location? It should be easily
>>>accessible by public transport and close to the center.
>>> Chris.
>>
>>Then I'd suggest the Hardrock Cafe, as it has good food and drinks - it
>>is located next to the Stock Exchange, which in turn is next to
>>Frankfurt Hauptwache.
>
> Good suggestion. I'll be there. I'm interested to know who keeps my patches in
> the queue so long. ;)
Mr. Lazy Ass ;-)
Welcome to open source.
But if you bug long enough, you get commit access so that you can patch
stuff yourself ;-) so there is hope.
--
Stefano.
Re: Cocoon Stammtisch Frankfurt/M Wednesday
Posted by Torsten Knodt <to...@datas-world.de>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
> >Anyone interested in meeting in real life on wednesday evening (21.05) in
> >Frankfurt/M (Germany) ?
> >Nicola Ken will be there as well.
> >Maybe someone from FFM could suggest a location? It should be easily
> >accessible by public transport and close to the center.
> > Chris.
> Then I'd suggest the Hardrock Cafe, as it has good food and drinks - it
> is located next to the Stock Exchange, which in turn is next to
> Frankfurt Hauptwache.
Good suggestion. I'll be there. I'm interested to know who keeps my patches in
the queue so long. ;)
Regards
Torsten
- --
Domain in provider transition, hope for smoothness. Planed date is 24.7.2003
pub 1024D/4CD29A2C 2001-01-12 Torsten Knodt <to...@datas-world.de>
Schl.-Fingerabdruck = A2B1 C626 F819 7C58 B2F9 4F4C BF16 64B6 4CD2 9A2C
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQE+yOtivxZktkzSmiwRAj0EAJ0cguo+eIAUNKGG7R4dcjevrCNW0ACfR3IT
Va2WFm2m06h0s1AuQu818T0=
=YT89
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Re: Cocoon Stammtisch Frankfurt/M Wednesday
Posted by Christian Haul <ha...@informatik.tu-darmstadt.de>.
Michael Hartle wrote:
> Christian Haul wrote:
>
>> Anyone interested in meeting in real life on wednesday evening (21.05) in
>> Frankfurt/M (Germany) ?
>> Nicola Ken will be there as well.
>>
>> Maybe someone from FFM could suggest a location? It should be easily
>> accessible by public transport and close to the center.
>>
>>
> Then I'd suggest the Hardrock Cafe, as it has good food and drinks - it
> is located next to the Stock Exchange, which in turn is next to
> Frankfurt Hauptwache.
OK, so let's say 8pm @ hard rock cafe. I'll try to get us a table
although we're currently only 4...
Chris.
--
C h r i s t i a n H a u l
haul@informatik.tu-darmstadt.de
fingerprint: 99B0 1D9D 7919 644A 4837 7D73 FEF9 6856 335A 9E08
Re: Cocoon Stammtisch Frankfurt/M Wednesday
Posted by Michael Hartle <mh...@hartle-klug.com>.
Christian Haul wrote:
>Anyone interested in meeting in real life on wednesday evening (21.05) in
>Frankfurt/M (Germany) ?
>
>Nicola Ken will be there as well.
>
>Maybe someone from FFM could suggest a location? It should be easily
>accessible by public transport and close to the center.
>
> Chris.
>
>
Then I'd suggest the Hardrock Cafe, as it has good food and drinks - it
is located next to the Stock Exchange, which in turn is next to
Frankfurt Hauptwache.
Best regards,
Michael Hartle