After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

There have been some side discussions on this topic.  I'd like to
collect these ideas into one thread.

My observations:

1) The OpenOffice code base has a reputation of being complex, hard to
understand, even "haunted".  It is difficult for new developers to get
involved with it.

2) We get regular offers of help from new volunteers for other project
functions, such documentation, QA, website,etc., but we are not doing
a great job getting them to be successful contributors in the project.

3) Nothing is free.  Making the code easier to understand, or
mentoring new contributors to the project, these things time and
effort.

So there is a natural trade-off between short term progress on
features and long term growing of the contributor base.  With AOO 3.4
we have biases the effort toward forward progress on the release. Post
AOO 3.4 we might want to adjust to a more balanced approach.

Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after AOO
3.4 releases?

-Rob

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>]

Rob,

I agree, making this project open and accessible for all who want to
contribute is an important consideration.

With regards to the short term priorities and delivering AOO 3.4 to
maintain traction, I completely agree.

With regards to a post AOO 3.4 approach, I would advocate a balanced
approach that seeks a harmonious blend between the product direction and
sustainability, technical feasibility and end user desirability. I feel the
best way to realize such balance in the final product, is to mirror a
similar balance in our approach and process.

Perhaps we could seek to organize in specific sub-communities that seek to
not only complete tasks, but communities, where the our volunteers learn
about a discipline (product management, user experience design,
development, testing, documentation, etc.) learn how to manage the effort,
learn how integrate their contribution, learn how to drive change and have
an impact.

As I am new to this effort, my initial thoughts may be obvious to the more
seasoned contributor. For my part, I can say that I am very interested in
contributing to our user experience and product design approach. I will
observe my new UX contributor experience and capture any thoughts that
might help contribute to attracting and retaining other design-oriented
volunteers moving forward.

I'm looking forward to continuing this conversation.

Best regards,
Kevin


On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:

> There have been some side discussions on this topic.  I'd like to
> collect these ideas into one thread.
>
> My observations:
>
> 1) The OpenOffice code base has a reputation of being complex, hard to
> understand, even "haunted".  It is difficult for new developers to get
> involved with it.
>
> 2) We get regular offers of help from new volunteers for other project
> functions, such documentation, QA, website,etc., but we are not doing
> a great job getting them to be successful contributors in the project.
>
> 3) Nothing is free.  Making the code easier to understand, or
> mentoring new contributors to the project, these things time and
> effort.
>
> So there is a natural trade-off between short term progress on
> features and long term growing of the contributor base.  With AOO 3.4
> we have biases the effort toward forward progress on the release. Post
> AOO 3.4 we might want to adjust to a more balanced approach.
>
> Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after AOO
> 3.4 releases?
>
> -Rob
>

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Simon Brouwer <si...@brousant.nl>]

Hi Regina,

Thanks for these excellent insights.

Best regards
Simon

Op 20-3-2012 13:29, Regina Henschel schreef:
(...)

> It is impossible to understand the code without guides and without
> mentoring.
>
> Conclusion, wish or how you might call it:
> (1) Document parts of the code very detailed in all steps, including
> help and accessibility. For example: How to make a new dialog? How does
> an Excel import filter works? I could start only after Eike Rathke has
> documented the process of adding new functions to Calc in
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Calc/Implementation/Spreadsheet_Functions
>
>
> (2) Document an overview of AOO. For example: What parts are all
> touched, when a user drags a corner of a shape till the shape is
> changed? Or what parts are touched, when a writer document is opened.
> And the other way round, what is handled in vcl or cosv or all the other
> modules?
>
> (3) Document AOO specific things. For example what are these OSL_*,
> which are used, when and why. What special types exists, why do they
> exist, when should they be used?
>
> (4) Increase mentoring. Such mentor should identify a "nice to have"
> feature and offer to guide the volunteer. Armin has mentored the
> "linecap" feature that way and it has worked well. Although some
> essential parts are done by Armin, I did a lot by myself and got some
> new insides in the code.
>
>
> Getting a build is a critical part for newcomers, especially on Windows.
>
> (5) Work very hard to provide a buildable trunk on Friday. It is very
> frustrating when you plan to do some coding on weekend and the build fails.
>
> (6) Without the document about building OOo on Windows by Mathias Bauer
> and the succeeding Wiki page
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Building_OOo_with_Cygwin_on_Windows
> I was not able to build OOo. So keep this information up to date; it is
> essential for newcomers.
>
> Kind regards
> Regina
>
>
>


-- 
Vriendelijke groet, Best regards,

Simon Brouwer

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Regina Henschel <rb...@t-online.de>]

Hi Rob,

I do not code in my daily job, but do it only as hobby. My personal 
observations might be true for other volunteer coders too.

Rob Weir schrieb:
> There have been some side discussions on this topic.  I'd like to
> collect these ideas into one thread.
>
> My observations:
>
> 1) The OpenOffice code base has a reputation of being complex, hard to
> understand, even "haunted".  It is difficult for new developers to get
> involved with it.
>
> 2) We get regular offers of help from new volunteers for other project
> functions, such documentation, QA, website,etc., but we are not doing
> a great job getting them to be successful contributors in the project.
>
> 3) Nothing is free.  Making the code easier to understand, or
> mentoring new contributors to the project, these things time and
> effort.
>
> So there is a natural trade-off between short term progress on
> features and long term growing of the contributor base.  With AOO 3.4
> we have biases the effort toward forward progress on the release. Post
> AOO 3.4 we might want to adjust to a more balanced approach.
>
> Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after AOO
> 3.4 releases?

It is impossible to understand the code without guides and without 
mentoring.

Conclusion, wish or how you might call it:
(1) Document parts of the code very detailed in all steps, including 
help and accessibility. For example: How to make a new dialog? How does 
an Excel import filter works? I could start only after Eike Rathke has 
documented the process of adding new functions to Calc in 
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Calc/Implementation/Spreadsheet_Functions

(2) Document an overview of AOO. For example: What parts are all 
touched, when a user drags a corner of a shape till the shape is 
changed? Or what parts are touched, when a writer document is opened. 
And the other way round, what is handled in vcl or cosv or all the other 
modules?

(3) Document AOO specific things. For example what are these OSL_*, 
which are used, when and why. What special types exists, why do they 
exist, when should they be used?

(4) Increase mentoring. Such mentor should identify a "nice to have" 
feature and offer to guide the volunteer. Armin has mentored the 
"linecap" feature that way and it has worked well. Although some 
essential parts are done by Armin, I did a lot by myself and got some 
new insides in the code.


Getting a build is a critical part for newcomers, especially on Windows.

(5) Work very hard to provide a buildable trunk on Friday. It is very 
frustrating when you plan to do some coding on weekend and the build fails.

(6) Without the document about building OOo on Windows by Mathias Bauer 
and the succeeding Wiki page 
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Building_OOo_with_Cygwin_on_Windows 
I was not able to build OOo. So keep this information up to date; it is 
essential for newcomers.

Kind regards
Regina

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>wrote:

> Many great thoughts here.
>
> In addition to supporting the open source movement, perhaps we could
> market participation as a way to learn and develop skills.
>
> As a newbie, it appears that much our message is around what we need -
> which is essential to understand, however we may want to focus on why
> someone may want to join and help them realize their goals.
>
> For example, if someone is looking to demonstrate their skills and develop
> portfolio work products, then AOO offers a sandbox of opportunity.
>
>
That is certainly one possible motivation.  Someone at the start of their
career, or considering a new career, starts with less in their resume.  So
open source participation can be almost like an unpaid internship -- gain
some experience, skills, references, etc.

There was a study a few years ago that looked at open source participation,
specifically looking at Apache projects.  The authors found:

"First, we find that developers’ motivations are not independent but rather
are related in complex ways. Being paid to contribute to Apache projects is
positively related to developers’ status motivations but negatively related
to their use-value motivations. Perhaps surprisingly, we find no evidence
of diminished intrinsic motivation in the presence of extrinsic
motivations; rather, status motivations enhance intrinsic motivations.
Second, we find that different motivations have an impact on participation
in different ways. Developers’ paid participation and status motivations
lead to above-average contribution levels, but use-value motivations lead
to below-average contribution levels, and intrinsic motivations do not
significantly impact average contribution levels. Third, we find that
developers’ contribution levels positively impact their performance
rankings. Finally, our results suggest that past-performance rankings
enhance developers’ subsequent status motivations."

http://mansci.journal.informs.org/content/52/7/984.abstract

(And no, I have zero idea what that means.  But it sure sounds impressive.)


In any case, new volunteers have various motivations, and so do more
experienced members who volunteer to mentor new participants.  So all sorts
of combinations are interests are possible.  But I suspect the same two
questions occur over and over again:

1) What are some things I can work on now that match my skill level and
time commitment?

2) I want to do X,  How do I get started, technically or procedurally?

In other words, we have volunteers looking for an area to help with, and we
have others who want to accomplish something specific, but need help
figuring out how to do it.

-Rob

Some thoughts.
>
> Regards,
> Kevin
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2012, at 10:47 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts <luispo@gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >> On 2012-03-19, at 08:41 , Rob Weir wrote:
> >>
> >>> Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after AOO
> >>> 3.4 releases?
> >>
> >> Lots, and these would complement the rather good ideas already proposed.
> >> What we did at OOo actually worked--to attract developers and
> contributors
> >> of all sorts. What worked against us I do not think I need spell out,
> but
> >> the cussedness of the code was not really the determining factor.
> >>
> >> What really would help, besides giving would-bes a clean entry, is to
> have
> >> mentors, more or less do-able tasks that are identified as such. (We
> tried
> >> getting to this many times, and I strongly urged my erstwhile
> colleagues in
> >> this area for, uhm, years. Finally happened, and we got our to-dos but
> >> still not clearly identified according to level of difficulty. I can
> >> conceive of several  here whose work would assist in the identification
> of
> >> tasks newbies could approach--and even post-newbies-and perhaps even in
> >> mentoring.)
> >>
> >> Also, what helps tremendously is what we are doing already: presenting a
> >> community that is open, friendly, and generally has a good attitude
> about
> >> what it is doing and where it is going. There are millions using OOo as
> >> their primary ODF implementation, and those mostly include those who
> have
> >> come to it via the national or sub-national government agency. I think
> it's
> >> about time that they are looking to AOO for the next step.
> >>
> >>
> > I think the idea of a new contributor mentor is essential.   This is true
> > for coders, but also website, translation, documentation, test, UI, etc.
> > What we have today is very much a "swim or sink" and "drink from the fire
> > hose" approach.  If someone is highly motivated, highly skilled and
> > persistent, and is able to withstand the apparent chaos of the ooo-dev
> > list, and penetrates the noise and asks questions, and repeats their
> > questions until answered, then they might have a 50/50 chance of
> > contributing.
> >
> > But let's be honest with ourselves -- there are a range of projects
> someone
> > can contribute to.  For would-be volunteers it is a buyer's market.  If
> we
> > make it too hard to get involved and contribute, technically,
> procedurally,
> > socially, then we lose.
> >
> > But getting new volunteers on board requires effort.  If someone is
> > spending 100% of their time on their own features, then they have no time
> > to help new volunteers become productive.
> >
> > One approach might be to define "essential skills" or "essential
> knowledge"
> > that a new volunteer needs to master in order to become productive, and
> > then a list of project members who are willing to help mentor new
> > volunteers to acquire those skills.
> >
> > For example, for the website, the essential skills might be:
> >
> > 1) Assume HTML/CSS, we're not here to teach that
> > 2) Help them get started with Markdown Text
> > 3) Help them use the CMS to generate patches
> > 4) Help them build website locally via the scripts
> > 5) Understanding the larger site design, including recurring page
> elements,
> > footers, etc.
> > 6) In parallel with above, understanding Apache, roles, decision making,
> > lazy consensus, CTR versus RTC, what Infra does versus what the project
> is
> > responsible for, etc.
> > 7) Help them establish a record of contributions to become a committer
> >
> > Anyone who has done the above can do 95% of what is needed to become a
> > master of our website.
> >
> > It would be wonderful if we had something like that, a check list even a
> > curriculum, for other common functions, as well as volunteers able to
> take
> > on new project volunteers willing to help.
> >
> > This is all an investment in the future success of the project.  We grow
> by
> > attracting new volunteers.  But the investment is time spent on
> mentoring.
> > This would all be over-kill for the average Apache PMC of 8-12 people.
>  But
> > with 10 million lines of code, a PMC nearing 100 members, and the largest
> > project at Apache, we need an approach to training new volunteers that
> > works to scale.  I think something like the above helps get us closer.
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> >
> > And I can think of at least two, and probably more, national bodies so
> >> interested.
> >>
> >> Do these give us developers straight away? I don't know. The problem
> with
> >> OOo was, as [not] said ultimately political, not codical (comical?).
> >> Engaging these longtime users, as well as new ones, with the
> possibilities
> >> represented by this community, which is open and unencumbered--ought to
> be
> >> easier.
> >>
> >> My own approach is to focus on ODF and on the benefits offered not only
> by
> >> the AOO implementation but by its community.
> >>
> >> -louis
>

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Hennie Potgieter <pb...@gmail.com>]

Please cancel all emails to me.
Tkanks

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 7:03 AM, drew jensen <dr...@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Fri, 2012-03-30 at 23:21 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:35 PM, drew jensen <
> drewjensen.inbox@gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 09:04 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Kevin Grignon <
> > > kevingrignon.oo@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Rob,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sounds like we can appeal to contributors intrinsic and extrinsic
> > > > > motivation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Another newbie question: Does OO have any experience recruiting
> > > > > non-technical volunteers. Many disciplines outside coding can have
> an
> > > > > impact on the offering. Product management, UX, ID, training,
> visual
> > > > > design, marketing, communications, etc. How might we position
> > > ourselves as
> > > > > open product development? A wider net would attract the diverse
> skills
> > > that
> > > > > could really make the effort a success long term.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > See this page here, which our central "how can I help page":
> > > > http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/get-involved.html
> > > >
> > > > So we need and value contributors in a wide range of disciplines, not
> > > just
> > > > technical ones.
> > > >
> > > Hola Rob, Kevin
> > >
> > > Just an aside, if you will. At this years FOSDEM there was a panel
> > > discussion consisting of a number of the community managers. Included
> > > IIRC was openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu (in this case the speaker was
> > > specifically from the LoCo team project, not Ubuntu overall)...and a
> > > couple others whose affiliation I can not recall.
> > >
> > > One topic, which would be germane here, was on recruiting contributors.
> > >
> > > Across the panel the participants felt that finding and retaining
> > > _quality_ non-coding contributors has proven to be more difficult then
> > > coders. Unfortunately that was the extent of the topic discussion, they
> > > all agreed but not a single one went into Why they thought this was, or
> > > what particular obstacles, procedural or cultural, might be involved,
> or
> > > what actions if any they have implemented to address the situation.
> > >
> > >
> > I think OpenOffice has had the opposite problem.  We have a long
> tradition
> > of having quality non-coding contributors, especially in areas like
> > translation, marketing, documentation, support, etc.  But we had an
> > over-reliance on corporate-sponsored engineers from a single company for
> > coding.  If I look at the project today, I see volunteers for non-coding
> > items volunteering on the list on a near-daily basis.  But not so often
> for
> > coding volunteers.
>
> Hi Rob,
>
> Yes, you and I it would seem concur on our observational assessment of
> the current situation.
>
> >
> > In any case, my point was not really about coders versus non-coders.
>  There
> > is enough work to go around.  My concern was more that we're not doing a
> > great job at getting new contributors involved in the project.  Look at
> our
> > committers list.  We have nearly 100 now.  How many of them are actually
> > new, e.g., were not involved with the legacy OpenOffice.org project.
>  Sure,
> > there are a few, but not many.
> >
> > Now look at the list archives for how many people of volunteered to help
> > with the documentation, with the website, with UI, with testing, etc.
>  How
> > many of them were able to break into actually contributing to the
> project.
> > Almost none of them, right?
>
> Yes, I'd agree. I also think it's fair to say, self forming volunteer
> organizations fit the pattern in general - and therefore even more so
> requires active attention always.
>
> >
> > So the issue, as I see it, is not an issue with attracting volunteers.
>  It
> > isan issue of helping the volunteers get started and helping them meet
> > their goals in project participation.
>
> Sure, no argument here on any of that. I'd follow up from the first
> paragraph, and add that IMO the new actors most needed right now are
> those fitting the thin area - engineering.
>
> I think this means that; from those doing the engineering, particularly
> those making decisions on the directions the code will be developed
> going forward a need to be mindful to keep the required processes open
> and transparent - pick your term here, and I hope all understand what I
> mean here.. this is in no way an indictment but rather statemtnt of what
> I see as a general principle
> - so that those whom would be interested in such work will know it is
> here.
>
> I think this is the first step in attracting engineering resources.
>
> From there then yes, the group needs to be proactive with organizing
> hackfeasts, or activities of such like, the non-engineering contributors
> can only at best help with this not drive it forward.
>
> Anyhow - A long, rambling response, befitting a late Friday night, and
> all surrounded of course by IMO ;)
>
> //drew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> >
> >
> > > Anyhow, just thought I'd pass it along. BTW I watched this on a live
> > > video stream but the panel discussion may be available in an on-line
> > > archive, I don't know one way of the other.
> > >
> > > //drew
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > >
>
>
>

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 12:23 AM, Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>wrote:

> Drew and Rob,
>
> I'll defer to your experience with the OO recruiting. Your comments make
> sense.
>
> The key point I wanted to make was that I feel that diversity is a good
> thing, and that product design need not solely the domain of technical
> people. Yes, the offering is software and that requires significant
> implementation effort, however, other disciplines can contribute
> to requirements research, validation and feature design and product
> evaluation.
>
> Perhaps we could look at the effort as opensource product design, as much
> as opensource development.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> For my part, I'm interested in re-establishing our user experience design
> capabilities and in time, I hope we can roll out a strategy to recruit more
> product design-oriented contributors (user researchers, interaction
> designers, visual designers and usabilty evaluators.)
>
>
Hi Kevin,

These are all great points.

One idea.   The following page is our primary "get involved" page for the
project.  It is linked to prominently from the www.openoffice.org homepage
and gets many, many hits:

http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/get-involved.html

That page then links to this "help wanted" page on the wiki, with more
details:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Help+Wanted

If you have any suggestions on how these pages could be updated, I can help
you get the changes applied.  Actually, for the wiki page, you can just
sign up for an account.

Also, after 3.4 releases we could have a blog post about user experience
and the desire to establish a nucleus of expertise here at the project.
That could help attract interest.

-Rob

Regards,
> Kevin
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, drew jensen <drewjensen.inbox@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> >  On Fri, 2012-03-30 at 23:21 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> > > On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:35 PM, drew jensen <
> > drewjensen.inbox@gmail.com>wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 09:04 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Kevin Grignon <
> > > > kevingrignon.oo@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Rob,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sounds like we can appeal to contributors intrinsic and extrinsic
> > > > > > motivation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Another newbie question: Does OO have any experience recruiting
> > > > > > non-technical volunteers. Many disciplines outside coding can
> have
> > an
> > > > > > impact on the offering. Product management, UX, ID, training,
> > visual
> > > > > > design, marketing, communications, etc. How might we position
> > > > ourselves as
> > > > > > open product development? A wider net would attract the diverse
> > skills
> > > > that
> > > > > > could really make the effort a success long term.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > See this page here, which our central "how can I help page":
> > > > > http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/get-involved.html
> > > > >
> > > > > So we need and value contributors in a wide range of disciplines,
> not
> > > > just
> > > > > technical ones.
> > > > >
> > > > Hola Rob, Kevin
> > > >
> > > > Just an aside, if you will. At this years FOSDEM there was a panel
> > > > discussion consisting of a number of the community managers. Included
> > > > IIRC was openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu (in this case the speaker
> was
> > > > specifically from the LoCo team project, not Ubuntu overall)...and a
> > > > couple others whose affiliation I can not recall.
> > > >
> > > > One topic, which would be germane here, was on recruiting
> contributors.
> > > >
> > > > Across the panel the participants felt that finding and retaining
> > > > _quality_ non-coding contributors has proven to be more difficult
> then
> > > > coders. Unfortunately that was the extent of the topic discussion,
> they
> > > > all agreed but not a single one went into Why they thought this was,
> or
> > > > what particular obstacles, procedural or cultural, might be involved,
> > or
> > > > what actions if any they have implemented to address the situation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > I think OpenOffice has had the opposite problem.  We have a long
> > tradition
> > > of having quality non-coding contributors, especially in areas like
> > > translation, marketing, documentation, support, etc.  But we had an
> > > over-reliance on corporate-sponsored engineers from a single company
> for
> > > coding.  If I look at the project today, I see volunteers for
> non-coding
> > > items volunteering on the list on a near-daily basis.  But not so often
> > for
> > > coding volunteers.
> >
> > Hi Rob,
> >
> > Yes, you and I it would seem concur on our observational assessment of
> > the current situation.
> >
> > >
> > > In any case, my point was not really about coders versus non-coders.
> >  There
> > > is enough work to go around.  My concern was more that we're not doing
> a
> > > great job at getting new contributors involved in the project.  Look at
> > our
> > > committers list.  We have nearly 100 now.  How many of them are
> actually
> > > new, e.g., were not involved with the legacy OpenOffice.org project.
> >  Sure,
> > > there are a few, but not many.
> > >
> > > Now look at the list archives for how many people of volunteered to
> help
> > > with the documentation, with the website, with UI, with testing, etc.
> >  How
> > > many of them were able to break into actually contributing to the
> > project.
> > > Almost none of them, right?
> >
> > Yes, I'd agree. I also think it's fair to say, self forming volunteer
> > organizations fit the pattern in general - and therefore even more so
> > requires active attention always.
> >
> > >
> > > So the issue, as I see it, is not an issue with attracting volunteers.
> >  It
> > > isan issue of helping the volunteers get started and helping them meet
> > > their goals in project participation.
> >
> > Sure, no argument here on any of that. I'd follow up from the first
> > paragraph, and add that IMO the new actors most needed right now are
> > those fitting the thin area - engineering.
> >
> > I think this means that; from those doing the engineering, particularly
> > those making decisions on the directions the code will be developed
> > going forward a need to be mindful to keep the required processes open
> > and transparent - pick your term here, and I hope all understand what I
> > mean here.. this is in no way an indictment but rather statemtnt of what
> > I see as a general principle
> > - so that those whom would be interested in such work will know it is
> > here.
> >
> > I think this is the first step in attracting engineering resources.
> >
> > From there then yes, the group needs to be proactive with organizing
> > hackfeasts, or activities of such like, the non-engineering contributors
> > can only at best help with this not drive it forward.
> >
> > Anyhow - A long, rambling response, befitting a late Friday night, and
> > all surrounded of course by IMO ;)
> >
> > //drew
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > -Rob
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Anyhow, just thought I'd pass it along. BTW I watched this on a live
> > > > video stream but the panel discussion may be available in an on-line
> > > > archive, I don't know one way of the other.
> > > >
> > > > //drew
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>]

Drew and Rob,

I'll defer to your experience with the OO recruiting. Your comments make
sense.

The key point I wanted to make was that I feel that diversity is a good
thing, and that product design need not solely the domain of technical
people. Yes, the offering is software and that requires significant
implementation effort, however, other disciplines can contribute
to requirements research, validation and feature design and product
evaluation.

Perhaps we could look at the effort as opensource product design, as much
as opensource development.

Just a thought.

For my part, I'm interested in re-establishing our user experience design
capabilities and in time, I hope we can roll out a strategy to recruit more
product design-oriented contributors (user researchers, interaction
designers, visual designers and usabilty evaluators.)

Regards,
Kevin


On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, drew jensen <dr...@gmail.com>wrote:

>  On Fri, 2012-03-30 at 23:21 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:35 PM, drew jensen <
> drewjensen.inbox@gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 09:04 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Kevin Grignon <
> > > kevingrignon.oo@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Rob,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sounds like we can appeal to contributors intrinsic and extrinsic
> > > > > motivation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Another newbie question: Does OO have any experience recruiting
> > > > > non-technical volunteers. Many disciplines outside coding can have
> an
> > > > > impact on the offering. Product management, UX, ID, training,
> visual
> > > > > design, marketing, communications, etc. How might we position
> > > ourselves as
> > > > > open product development? A wider net would attract the diverse
> skills
> > > that
> > > > > could really make the effort a success long term.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > See this page here, which our central "how can I help page":
> > > > http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/get-involved.html
> > > >
> > > > So we need and value contributors in a wide range of disciplines, not
> > > just
> > > > technical ones.
> > > >
> > > Hola Rob, Kevin
> > >
> > > Just an aside, if you will. At this years FOSDEM there was a panel
> > > discussion consisting of a number of the community managers. Included
> > > IIRC was openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu (in this case the speaker was
> > > specifically from the LoCo team project, not Ubuntu overall)...and a
> > > couple others whose affiliation I can not recall.
> > >
> > > One topic, which would be germane here, was on recruiting contributors.
> > >
> > > Across the panel the participants felt that finding and retaining
> > > _quality_ non-coding contributors has proven to be more difficult then
> > > coders. Unfortunately that was the extent of the topic discussion, they
> > > all agreed but not a single one went into Why they thought this was, or
> > > what particular obstacles, procedural or cultural, might be involved,
> or
> > > what actions if any they have implemented to address the situation.
> > >
> > >
> > I think OpenOffice has had the opposite problem.  We have a long
> tradition
> > of having quality non-coding contributors, especially in areas like
> > translation, marketing, documentation, support, etc.  But we had an
> > over-reliance on corporate-sponsored engineers from a single company for
> > coding.  If I look at the project today, I see volunteers for non-coding
> > items volunteering on the list on a near-daily basis.  But not so often
> for
> > coding volunteers.
>
> Hi Rob,
>
> Yes, you and I it would seem concur on our observational assessment of
> the current situation.
>
> >
> > In any case, my point was not really about coders versus non-coders.
>  There
> > is enough work to go around.  My concern was more that we're not doing a
> > great job at getting new contributors involved in the project.  Look at
> our
> > committers list.  We have nearly 100 now.  How many of them are actually
> > new, e.g., were not involved with the legacy OpenOffice.org project.
>  Sure,
> > there are a few, but not many.
> >
> > Now look at the list archives for how many people of volunteered to help
> > with the documentation, with the website, with UI, with testing, etc.
>  How
> > many of them were able to break into actually contributing to the
> project.
> > Almost none of them, right?
>
> Yes, I'd agree. I also think it's fair to say, self forming volunteer
> organizations fit the pattern in general - and therefore even more so
> requires active attention always.
>
> >
> > So the issue, as I see it, is not an issue with attracting volunteers.
>  It
> > isan issue of helping the volunteers get started and helping them meet
> > their goals in project participation.
>
> Sure, no argument here on any of that. I'd follow up from the first
> paragraph, and add that IMO the new actors most needed right now are
> those fitting the thin area - engineering.
>
> I think this means that; from those doing the engineering, particularly
> those making decisions on the directions the code will be developed
> going forward a need to be mindful to keep the required processes open
> and transparent - pick your term here, and I hope all understand what I
> mean here.. this is in no way an indictment but rather statemtnt of what
> I see as a general principle
> - so that those whom would be interested in such work will know it is
> here.
>
> I think this is the first step in attracting engineering resources.
>
> From there then yes, the group needs to be proactive with organizing
> hackfeasts, or activities of such like, the non-engineering contributors
> can only at best help with this not drive it forward.
>
> Anyhow - A long, rambling response, befitting a late Friday night, and
> all surrounded of course by IMO ;)
>
> //drew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> >
> >
> > > Anyhow, just thought I'd pass it along. BTW I watched this on a live
> > > video stream but the panel discussion may be available in an on-line
> > > archive, I don't know one way of the other.
> > >
> > > //drew
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > >
>
>
>

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[drew jensen <dr...@gmail.com>]

On Fri, 2012-03-30 at 23:21 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:35 PM, drew jensen <dr...@gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 09:04 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> > > On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Kevin Grignon <
> > kevingrignon.oo@gmail.com>wrote:
> > >
> > > > Rob,
> > > >
> > > > Sounds like we can appeal to contributors intrinsic and extrinsic
> > > > motivation.
> > > >
> > > > Another newbie question: Does OO have any experience recruiting
> > > > non-technical volunteers. Many disciplines outside coding can have an
> > > > impact on the offering. Product management, UX, ID, training, visual
> > > > design, marketing, communications, etc. How might we position
> > ourselves as
> > > > open product development? A wider net would attract the diverse skills
> > that
> > > > could really make the effort a success long term.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > See this page here, which our central "how can I help page":
> > > http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/get-involved.html
> > >
> > > So we need and value contributors in a wide range of disciplines, not
> > just
> > > technical ones.
> > >
> > Hola Rob, Kevin
> >
> > Just an aside, if you will. At this years FOSDEM there was a panel
> > discussion consisting of a number of the community managers. Included
> > IIRC was openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu (in this case the speaker was
> > specifically from the LoCo team project, not Ubuntu overall)...and a
> > couple others whose affiliation I can not recall.
> >
> > One topic, which would be germane here, was on recruiting contributors.
> >
> > Across the panel the participants felt that finding and retaining
> > _quality_ non-coding contributors has proven to be more difficult then
> > coders. Unfortunately that was the extent of the topic discussion, they
> > all agreed but not a single one went into Why they thought this was, or
> > what particular obstacles, procedural or cultural, might be involved, or
> > what actions if any they have implemented to address the situation.
> >
> >
> I think OpenOffice has had the opposite problem.  We have a long tradition
> of having quality non-coding contributors, especially in areas like
> translation, marketing, documentation, support, etc.  But we had an
> over-reliance on corporate-sponsored engineers from a single company for
> coding.  If I look at the project today, I see volunteers for non-coding
> items volunteering on the list on a near-daily basis.  But not so often for
> coding volunteers.

Hi Rob,

Yes, you and I it would seem concur on our observational assessment of
the current situation.

> 
> In any case, my point was not really about coders versus non-coders.  There
> is enough work to go around.  My concern was more that we're not doing a
> great job at getting new contributors involved in the project.  Look at our
> committers list.  We have nearly 100 now.  How many of them are actually
> new, e.g., were not involved with the legacy OpenOffice.org project.  Sure,
> there are a few, but not many.
> 
> Now look at the list archives for how many people of volunteered to help
> with the documentation, with the website, with UI, with testing, etc.  How
> many of them were able to break into actually contributing to the project.
> Almost none of them, right?

Yes, I'd agree. I also think it's fair to say, self forming volunteer
organizations fit the pattern in general - and therefore even more so
requires active attention always. 

> 
> So the issue, as I see it, is not an issue with attracting volunteers.  It
> isan issue of helping the volunteers get started and helping them meet
> their goals in project participation.

Sure, no argument here on any of that. I'd follow up from the first
paragraph, and add that IMO the new actors most needed right now are
those fitting the thin area - engineering. 

I think this means that; from those doing the engineering, particularly
those making decisions on the directions the code will be developed
going forward a need to be mindful to keep the required processes open
and transparent - pick your term here, and I hope all understand what I
mean here.. this is in no way an indictment but rather statemtnt of what
I see as a general principle 
- so that those whom would be interested in such work will know it is
here.

I think this is the first step in attracting engineering resources.

>From there then yes, the group needs to be proactive with organizing
hackfeasts, or activities of such like, the non-engineering contributors
can only at best help with this not drive it forward.

Anyhow - A long, rambling response, befitting a late Friday night, and
all surrounded of course by IMO ;)

//drew







> 
> -Rob
> 
> 
> 
> > Anyhow, just thought I'd pass it along. BTW I watched this on a live
> > video stream but the panel discussion may be available in an on-line
> > archive, I don't know one way of the other.
> >
> > //drew
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:35 PM, drew jensen <dr...@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 09:04 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Kevin Grignon <
> kevingrignon.oo@gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> > > Rob,
> > >
> > > Sounds like we can appeal to contributors intrinsic and extrinsic
> > > motivation.
> > >
> > > Another newbie question: Does OO have any experience recruiting
> > > non-technical volunteers. Many disciplines outside coding can have an
> > > impact on the offering. Product management, UX, ID, training, visual
> > > design, marketing, communications, etc. How might we position
> ourselves as
> > > open product development? A wider net would attract the diverse skills
> that
> > > could really make the effort a success long term.
> > >
> > >
> > See this page here, which our central "how can I help page":
> > http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/get-involved.html
> >
> > So we need and value contributors in a wide range of disciplines, not
> just
> > technical ones.
> >
> Hola Rob, Kevin
>
> Just an aside, if you will. At this years FOSDEM there was a panel
> discussion consisting of a number of the community managers. Included
> IIRC was openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu (in this case the speaker was
> specifically from the LoCo team project, not Ubuntu overall)...and a
> couple others whose affiliation I can not recall.
>
> One topic, which would be germane here, was on recruiting contributors.
>
> Across the panel the participants felt that finding and retaining
> _quality_ non-coding contributors has proven to be more difficult then
> coders. Unfortunately that was the extent of the topic discussion, they
> all agreed but not a single one went into Why they thought this was, or
> what particular obstacles, procedural or cultural, might be involved, or
> what actions if any they have implemented to address the situation.
>
>
I think OpenOffice has had the opposite problem.  We have a long tradition
of having quality non-coding contributors, especially in areas like
translation, marketing, documentation, support, etc.  But we had an
over-reliance on corporate-sponsored engineers from a single company for
coding.  If I look at the project today, I see volunteers for non-coding
items volunteering on the list on a near-daily basis.  But not so often for
coding volunteers.

In any case, my point was not really about coders versus non-coders.  There
is enough work to go around.  My concern was more that we're not doing a
great job at getting new contributors involved in the project.  Look at our
committers list.  We have nearly 100 now.  How many of them are actually
new, e.g., were not involved with the legacy OpenOffice.org project.  Sure,
there are a few, but not many.

Now look at the list archives for how many people of volunteered to help
with the documentation, with the website, with UI, with testing, etc.  How
many of them were able to break into actually contributing to the project.
Almost none of them, right?

So the issue, as I see it, is not an issue with attracting volunteers.  It
isan issue of helping the volunteers get started and helping them meet
their goals in project participation.

-Rob



> Anyhow, just thought I'd pass it along. BTW I watched this on a live
> video stream but the panel discussion may be available in an on-line
> archive, I don't know one way of the other.
>
> //drew
>
> <snip>
>
>

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[drew jensen <dr...@gmail.com>]

On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 09:04 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > Rob,
> >
> > Sounds like we can appeal to contributors intrinsic and extrinsic
> > motivation.
> >
> > Another newbie question: Does OO have any experience recruiting
> > non-technical volunteers. Many disciplines outside coding can have an
> > impact on the offering. Product management, UX, ID, training, visual
> > design, marketing, communications, etc. How might we position ourselves as
> > open product development? A wider net would attract the diverse skills that
> > could really make the effort a success long term.
> >
> >
> See this page here, which our central "how can I help page":
> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/get-involved.html
> 
> So we need and value contributors in a wide range of disciplines, not just
> technical ones.
> 
Hola Rob, Kevin

Just an aside, if you will. At this years FOSDEM there was a panel
discussion consisting of a number of the community managers. Included
IIRC was openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu (in this case the speaker was
specifically from the LoCo team project, not Ubuntu overall)...and a
couple others whose affiliation I can not recall.

One topic, which would be germane here, was on recruiting contributors.

Across the panel the participants felt that finding and retaining
_quality_ non-coding contributors has proven to be more difficult then
coders. Unfortunately that was the extent of the topic discussion, they
all agreed but not a single one went into Why they thought this was, or
what particular obstacles, procedural or cultural, might be involved, or
what actions if any they have implemented to address the situation.

Anyhow, just thought I'd pass it along. BTW I watched this on a live
video stream but the panel discussion may be available in an on-line
archive, I don't know one way of the other.

//drew
 
<snip>

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>wrote:

> Rob,
>
> Sounds like we can appeal to contributors intrinsic and extrinsic
> motivation.
>
> Another newbie question: Does OO have any experience recruiting
> non-technical volunteers. Many disciplines outside coding can have an
> impact on the offering. Product management, UX, ID, training, visual
> design, marketing, communications, etc. How might we position ourselves as
> open product development? A wider net would attract the diverse skills that
> could really make the effort a success long term.
>
>
See this page here, which our central "how can I help page":
http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/get-involved.html

So we need and value contributors in a wide range of disciplines, not just
technical ones.

-Rob

Regards,
> Kevin
>
> On Mar 29, 2012, at 7:39 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:37 AM, Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Ram;
> >>
> >> We are strictly non-profit here so I am not sure how far
> >> we could go with such certifications. I think it's a
> >> delicate matter and sooner or later someone would likely
> >> complain about students being exploited or your company
> >> making money in exchange of ASF certificates.
> >>
> >>
> > But consider, don't we do exactly this when Apache participates in Google
> > Summer of Code?  We get students working on Apache projects, and in
> return
> > Apache gives the student a written evaluation.  And in return for a
> > successful evaluation the student gets money from Google.
> >
> > How is it any different if another company (not Google) encourages
> students
> > to contribute to the project and in return we provide some reference for
> > how well the student did?  How payments are handled beyond that is none
> of
> > our business.
> >
> >
> >
> >> We certainly can have a Wiki page for students to register
> >> their projects and ideas and if their projects are really
> >> good we would almost certainly invite them to become
> >> Apache committers but that as far as we can go (I think).
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Being voted in as as committer is one way to demonstrate accomplishment
> in
> > the project.
> >
> > Another way would be to show code contributions directly.  Everything in
> > version control is open to the public to inspect, so anyone with the
> right
> > skills can find this out.
> >
> > Another way is to use a  site like Ohloh, which puts these statistics in
> a
> > easier-to-read form.
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> >
> >> cheers,
> >>
> >> Pedro.
> >>
> >> --- Mer 28/3/12, qa@imsoftwaresystems.com ha scritto:
> >>
> >>> Hi Rob,
> >>>
> >>> Well, the large talent pool is available here in India with
> >>> millions of
> >>> students graduating in Engineering,MCA(Master of computer
> >>> applications).
> >>> They all look for a project for their final semester. We can
> >>> somehow try to
> >>> attract them but they also try to see what  is the
> >>> benefit for them. Most
> >>> of these guys they learn C/Java as part of their
> >>> syllabus.But we need to
> >>> retrain them as they generally  just try to pass and
> >>> not to be master of
> >>> it.
> >>> So we need to train them and make them useful.
> >>>
> >>> I have not seen the code base yet but based on the search
> >>> results what i
> >>> have understood is that it is implemented in
> >>>
> >>> Java,
> >>> OOBasic,
> >>> Cpp,
> >>> Python,
> >>> XSL,
> >>> ooRexx
> >>>
> >>> From Freshers point of view they prefer the new languages
> >>> like
> >>> Java(ofcourse it is a old one but still new when compared to
> >>> C/C++) or
> >>> advanced stuff like Android. But still we can train people
> >>> in C++ but it is
> >>> easy to attract people for Java.
> >>>
> >>> If we know the exact requirement of people then we can try
> >>> to gather the
> >>> people and train them and make them good to contribute to
> >>> the project.
> >>>
> >>> We have a software training institute and staff are from top
> >>> MNC's.Lot of
> >>> students approach us for Live Projects to gain some real
> >>> experience.
> >>>
> >>> So we may try to accept the people and train them. We charge
> >>> the students
> >>> for training as we have to pay the trainers.
> >>> Ultimately what students expect is an experience letter from
> >>> Apache so that
> >>> they can utilise it for future employment. In addition to
> >>> issuing the
> >>> certificate we should have their contribution mentioned in
> >>> our website
> >>> otherwise other job seekers will fake the cetificates.
> >>>
> >>> I think if the company(Apache) is ready to issue a
> >>> certificate mentioning
> >>> their contribution towards the project and list their
> >>> contribution in AOO
> >>> website then it should definetly work.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks & Regards,
> >>> Ram,
> >>> Im Software Systems
> >>>
> >>
> >>
>

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>]

Rob,

Sounds like we can appeal to contributors intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. 

Another newbie question: Does OO have any experience recruiting non-technical volunteers. Many disciplines outside coding can have an impact on the offering. Product management, UX, ID, training, visual design, marketing, communications, etc. How might we position ourselves as open product development? A wider net would attract the diverse skills that could really make the effort a success long term. 

Regards,
Kevin

On Mar 29, 2012, at 7:39 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:37 AM, Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Ram;
>> 
>> We are strictly non-profit here so I am not sure how far
>> we could go with such certifications. I think it's a
>> delicate matter and sooner or later someone would likely
>> complain about students being exploited or your company
>> making money in exchange of ASF certificates.
>> 
>> 
> But consider, don't we do exactly this when Apache participates in Google
> Summer of Code?  We get students working on Apache projects, and in return
> Apache gives the student a written evaluation.  And in return for a
> successful evaluation the student gets money from Google.
> 
> How is it any different if another company (not Google) encourages students
> to contribute to the project and in return we provide some reference for
> how well the student did?  How payments are handled beyond that is none of
> our business.
> 
> 
> 
>> We certainly can have a Wiki page for students to register
>> their projects and ideas and if their projects are really
>> good we would almost certainly invite them to become
>> Apache committers but that as far as we can go (I think).
>> 
>> 
> 
> Being voted in as as committer is one way to demonstrate accomplishment in
> the project.
> 
> Another way would be to show code contributions directly.  Everything in
> version control is open to the public to inspect, so anyone with the right
> skills can find this out.
> 
> Another way is to use a  site like Ohloh, which puts these statistics in a
> easier-to-read form.
> 
> -Rob
> 
> 
>> cheers,
>> 
>> Pedro.
>> 
>> --- Mer 28/3/12, qa@imsoftwaresystems.com ha scritto:
>> 
>>> Hi Rob,
>>> 
>>> Well, the large talent pool is available here in India with
>>> millions of
>>> students graduating in Engineering,MCA(Master of computer
>>> applications).
>>> They all look for a project for their final semester. We can
>>> somehow try to
>>> attract them but they also try to see what  is the
>>> benefit for them. Most
>>> of these guys they learn C/Java as part of their
>>> syllabus.But we need to
>>> retrain them as they generally  just try to pass and
>>> not to be master of
>>> it.
>>> So we need to train them and make them useful.
>>> 
>>> I have not seen the code base yet but based on the search
>>> results what i
>>> have understood is that it is implemented in
>>> 
>>> Java,
>>> OOBasic,
>>> Cpp,
>>> Python,
>>> XSL,
>>> ooRexx
>>> 
>>> From Freshers point of view they prefer the new languages
>>> like
>>> Java(ofcourse it is a old one but still new when compared to
>>> C/C++) or
>>> advanced stuff like Android. But still we can train people
>>> in C++ but it is
>>> easy to attract people for Java.
>>> 
>>> If we know the exact requirement of people then we can try
>>> to gather the
>>> people and train them and make them good to contribute to
>>> the project.
>>> 
>>> We have a software training institute and staff are from top
>>> MNC's.Lot of
>>> students approach us for Live Projects to gain some real
>>> experience.
>>> 
>>> So we may try to accept the people and train them. We charge
>>> the students
>>> for training as we have to pay the trainers.
>>> Ultimately what students expect is an experience letter from
>>> Apache so that
>>> they can utilise it for future employment. In addition to
>>> issuing the
>>> certificate we should have their contribution mentioned in
>>> our website
>>> otherwise other job seekers will fake the cetificates.
>>> 
>>> I think if the company(Apache) is ready to issue a
>>> certificate mentioning
>>> their contribution towards the project and list their
>>> contribution in AOO
>>> website then it should definetly work.
>>> 
>>> Thanks & Regards,
>>> Ram,
>>> Im Software Systems
>>> 
>> 
>> 

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 12:37 AM, Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi Ram;
>
> We are strictly non-profit here so I am not sure how far
> we could go with such certifications. I think it's a
> delicate matter and sooner or later someone would likely
> complain about students being exploited or your company
> making money in exchange of ASF certificates.
>
>
But consider, don't we do exactly this when Apache participates in Google
Summer of Code?  We get students working on Apache projects, and in return
Apache gives the student a written evaluation.  And in return for a
successful evaluation the student gets money from Google.

How is it any different if another company (not Google) encourages students
to contribute to the project and in return we provide some reference for
how well the student did?  How payments are handled beyond that is none of
our business.



> We certainly can have a Wiki page for students to register
> their projects and ideas and if their projects are really
> good we would almost certainly invite them to become
> Apache committers but that as far as we can go (I think).
>
>

Being voted in as as committer is one way to demonstrate accomplishment in
the project.

Another way would be to show code contributions directly.  Everything in
version control is open to the public to inspect, so anyone with the right
skills can find this out.

Another way is to use a  site like Ohloh, which puts these statistics in a
easier-to-read form.

-Rob


> cheers,
>
> Pedro.
>
> --- Mer 28/3/12, qa@imsoftwaresystems.com ha scritto:
>
> > Hi Rob,
> >
> > Well, the large talent pool is available here in India with
> > millions of
> > students graduating in Engineering,MCA(Master of computer
> > applications).
> > They all look for a project for their final semester. We can
> > somehow try to
> > attract them but they also try to see what  is the
> > benefit for them. Most
> > of these guys they learn C/Java as part of their
> > syllabus.But we need to
> > retrain them as they generally  just try to pass and
> > not to be master of
> > it.
> > So we need to train them and make them useful.
> >
> > I have not seen the code base yet but based on the search
> > results what i
> > have understood is that it is implemented in
> >
> > Java,
> > OOBasic,
> > Cpp,
> > Python,
> > XSL,
> > ooRexx
> >
> > From Freshers point of view they prefer the new languages
> > like
> > Java(ofcourse it is a old one but still new when compared to
> > C/C++) or
> > advanced stuff like Android. But still we can train people
> > in C++ but it is
> > easy to attract people for Java.
> >
> > If we know the exact requirement of people then we can try
> > to gather the
> > people and train them and make them good to contribute to
> > the project.
> >
> > We have a software training institute and staff are from top
> > MNC's.Lot of
> > students approach us for Live Projects to gain some real
> > experience.
> >
> > So we may try to accept the people and train them. We charge
> > the students
> > for training as we have to pay the trainers.
> > Ultimately what students expect is an experience letter from
> > Apache so that
> > they can utilise it for future employment. In addition to
> > issuing the
> > certificate we should have their contribution mentioned in
> > our website
> > otherwise other job seekers will fake the cetificates.
> >
> > I think if the company(Apache) is ready to issue a
> > certificate mentioning
> > their contribution towards the project and list their
> > contribution in AOO
> > website then it should definetly work.
> >
> > Thanks & Regards,
> > Ram,
> > Im Software Systems
> >
>
>

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com>]

On 29 March 2012 05:51, Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Given the risk in a formal certification program,


Why would there be risk - well any more risk than doing anything else?

Not for profit is easy. Do it through ASDAN, (for example) a registered
charity in the UK and regulated by the national government.

we could look to support contributors intrinsic motivation by reducing
> barriers to entry and supporting a positive on-boarding experience.
>

Sure, use eg http://www.codecademy.com/<http://www.codecademy.com/#!/exercises/0>

for the content and course support and then get ASDAN to certify skills
from complete beginner level through to professional. There are some
constraints in terms of independent verification that the work is that of
the person claiming the certificate but all of this is just normal business
for a professional Awarding Organisation.


-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)

www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
Wales.

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>]

Given the risk in a formal certification program, we could look to support contributors intrinsic motivation by reducing barriers to entry and supporting a positive on-boarding experience. 

On Mar 29, 2012, at 12:37 PM, Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi Ram;
> 
> We are strictly non-profit here so I am not sure how far
> we could go with such certifications. I think it's a
> delicate matter and sooner or later someone would likely
> complain about students being exploited or your company
> making money in exchange of ASF certificates.
> 
> We certainly can have a Wiki page for students to register
> their projects and ideas and if their projects are really
> good we would almost certainly invite them to become
> Apache committers but that as far as we can go (I think).
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Pedro.
> 
> --- Mer 28/3/12, qa@imsoftwaresystems.com ha scritto:
> 
>> Hi Rob,
>> 
>> Well, the large talent pool is available here in India with
>> millions of
>> students graduating in Engineering,MCA(Master of computer
>> applications).
>> They all look for a project for their final semester. We can
>> somehow try to
>> attract them but they also try to see what  is the
>> benefit for them. Most
>> of these guys they learn C/Java as part of their 
>> syllabus.But we need to
>> retrain them as they generally  just try to pass and
>> not to be master of
>> it.
>> So we need to train them and make them useful.
>> 
>> I have not seen the code base yet but based on the search
>> results what i
>> have understood is that it is implemented in 
>> 
>> Java,
>> OOBasic,
>> Cpp,
>> Python,
>> XSL,
>> ooRexx
>> 
>> From Freshers point of view they prefer the new languages
>> like
>> Java(ofcourse it is a old one but still new when compared to
>> C/C++) or
>> advanced stuff like Android. But still we can train people
>> in C++ but it is
>> easy to attract people for Java.
>> 
>> If we know the exact requirement of people then we can try
>> to gather the
>> people and train them and make them good to contribute to
>> the project.
>> 
>> We have a software training institute and staff are from top
>> MNC's.Lot of
>> students approach us for Live Projects to gain some real
>> experience. 
>> 
>> So we may try to accept the people and train them. We charge
>> the students
>> for training as we have to pay the trainers. 
>> Ultimately what students expect is an experience letter from
>> Apache so that
>> they can utilise it for future employment. In addition to
>> issuing the
>> certificate we should have their contribution mentioned in
>> our website
>> otherwise other job seekers will fake the cetificates.
>> 
>> I think if the company(Apache) is ready to issue a
>> certificate mentioning
>> their contribution towards the project and list their
>> contribution in AOO
>> website then it should definetly work.
>> 
>> Thanks & Regards,
>> Ram,
>> Im Software Systems
>> 
> 

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>]

Hi Ram;

We are strictly non-profit here so I am not sure how far
we could go with such certifications. I think it's a
delicate matter and sooner or later someone would likely
complain about students being exploited or your company
making money in exchange of ASF certificates.

We certainly can have a Wiki page for students to register
their projects and ideas and if their projects are really
good we would almost certainly invite them to become
Apache committers but that as far as we can go (I think).

cheers,

Pedro.

--- Mer 28/3/12, qa@imsoftwaresystems.com ha scritto:

> Hi Rob,
> 
> Well, the large talent pool is available here in India with
> millions of
> students graduating in Engineering,MCA(Master of computer
> applications).
> They all look for a project for their final semester. We can
> somehow try to
> attract them but they also try to see what  is the
> benefit for them. Most
> of these guys they learn C/Java as part of their 
> syllabus.But we need to
> retrain them as they generally  just try to pass and
> not to be master of
> it.
> So we need to train them and make them useful.
> 
> I have not seen the code base yet but based on the search
> results what i
> have understood is that it is implemented in 
> 
> Java,
> OOBasic,
> Cpp,
> Python,
> XSL,
> ooRexx
> 
> From Freshers point of view they prefer the new languages
> like
> Java(ofcourse it is a old one but still new when compared to
> C/C++) or
> advanced stuff like Android. But still we can train people
> in C++ but it is
> easy to attract people for Java.
> 
> If we know the exact requirement of people then we can try
> to gather the
> people and train them and make them good to contribute to
> the project.
> 
> We have a software training institute and staff are from top
> MNC's.Lot of
> students approach us for Live Projects to gain some real
> experience. 
> 
> So we may try to accept the people and train them. We charge
> the students
> for training as we have to pay the trainers. 
> Ultimately what students expect is an experience letter from
> Apache so that
> they can utilise it for future employment. In addition to
> issuing the
> certificate we should have their contribution mentioned in
> our website
> otherwise other job seekers will fake the cetificates.
> 
> I think if the company(Apache) is ready to issue a
> certificate mentioning
> their contribution towards the project and list their
> contribution in AOO
> website then it should definetly work.
> 
> Thanks & Regards,
> Ram,
> Im Software Systems
> 
 

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>]

On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 12:54 +0800, Kevin Grignon wrote:
> Great points in this thread  
> 
> Question: Does OO community have a history if working with academic or professional groups to recruit volunteers? Developers, designers and beyond. 

Hola Kevin,

hmm - perhaps review the information at:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project

It only covers a subset of your question, but an important one for this
discussion IMO.

//drew


> 
> What is the protocol to recruit?
> 
> Thoughts?
> Kevin
> 
> On Mar 29, 2012, at 12:23 PM, <qa...@imsoftwaresystems.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Rob,
> > 
> > Well, the large talent pool is available here in India with millions of
> > students graduating in Engineering,MCA(Master of computer applications).
> > They all look for a project for their final semester. We can somehow try to
> > attract them but they also try to see what  is the benefit for them. Most
> > of these guys they learn C/Java as part of their  syllabus.But we need to
> > retrain them as they generally  just try to pass and not to be master of
> > it.
> > So we need to train them and make them useful.
> > 
> > I have not seen the code base yet but based on the search results what i
> > have understood is that it is implemented in 
> > 
> > Java,
> > OOBasic,
> > Cpp,
> > Python,
> > XSL,
> > ooRexx
> > 
> > From Freshers point of view they prefer the new languages like
> > Java(ofcourse it is a old one but still new when compared to C/C++) or
> > advanced stuff like Android. But still we can train people in C++ but it is
> > easy to attract people for Java.
> > 
> > If we know the exact requirement of people then we can try to gather the
> > people and train them and make them good to contribute to the project.
> > 
> > We have a software training institute and staff are from top MNC's.Lot of
> > students approach us for Live Projects to gain some real experience. 
> > 
> > So we may try to accept the people and train them. We charge the students
> > for training as we have to pay the trainers. 
> > Ultimately what students expect is an experience letter from Apache so that
> > they can utilise it for future employment. In addition to issuing the
> > certificate we should have their contribution mentioned in our website
> > otherwise other job seekers will fake the cetificates.
> > 
> > I think if the company(Apache) is ready to issue a certificate mentioning
> > their contribution towards the project and list their contribution in AOO
> > website then it should definetly work.
> > 
> > Thanks & Regards,
> > Ram,
> > Im Software Systems
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:11:59 -0400, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:05 PM, <qa...@imsoftwaresystems.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Hi,
> >>> 
> >>> I am sorry i am new to this dev mailing list. What is the real
> >>> requirement.
> >>> In what areas we need people for the next 1 year. What is the exact
> > skill
> >>> set needed. Let me see if i can computerof help you in anyway.
> >>> i
> >>> 
> >> Hi Ram,
> >> 
> >> As you can probably tell, from reading the ooo-dev list posts, we're just
> >> finishing up the OpenOffice 3.4 release. So it probably appears chaotic
> >> right now, but this is just a sign of the high activity level as we
> >> complete the remaining tasks for this release.
> >> 
> >> We have not had a community discussion about "the next 1 year", so what
> >> follows expresses my personal view only.
> >> 
> >> Areas where we especially need help:
> >> 
> >> - C/C++ programmers to work on the core OpenOffice code on feature
> >> development and bug fixing.
> >> 
> >> - There is some interest in developing some test automation based on a
> > Java
> >> testing framework that IBM said they would contribute.  So someone with
> >> skills in QA and Java could help with this.
> >> 
> >> - There is plenty of work to do with manual testing, especially with test
> >> case definition.  It might make sense to start with defining the test
> > cases
> >> and execute them manually at first, but overtime migrate to test
> >> automation.
> >> 
> >> - We have had some discussion about making a more intelligent install
> >> program, so it can bring down a small core program and then download
> >> additional modules, like spell checkers, language packs, etc., when
> > needed,
> >> over the internet.
> >> 
> >> I would also return the question and ask, what kind of things do you want
> >> to do?  The project works best, I think, when people are working on
> > things
> >> that they find interesting.
> >> 
> >> Regards,
> >> 
> >> -Rob
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> Thanks & Regards,
> >>> Ram,
> >>> Im Software Systems
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:47:30 +0100, Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On 28 March 2012 02:38, Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> Many great thoughts here.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> In addition to supporting the open source movement, perhaps we could
> >>>>> market participation as a way to learn and develop skills.
> >>>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Maybe a certificate for AOO development professional? Work out the key
> >>>> skills needed to contribute to development and write a set of
> >>>> indicative
> >>>> assessment criteria. Get a mentor to verify the candidate's evidence
> >>>> that
> >>>> they can meet the criteria. If there was interest in it we have the
> >>>> facilities to support it including secure on-line testing facilities
> >>>> and
> >>> a
> >>>> Drupal system for managing coursework evidence which we would do as a
> >>> free
> >>>> contribution to the project. We'd just need help defining the criteria
> >>> from
> >>>> the most experienced developers.
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>>> As a newbie, it appears that much our message is around what we need
> > -
> >>>>> which is essential to understand, however we may want to focus on why
> >>>>> someone may want to join and help them realize their goals.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> For example, if someone is looking to demonstrate their skills and
> >>>>> develop
> >>>>> portfolio work products, then AOO offers a sandbox of opportunity.
> >>>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> And a potential certification of skills.
> >>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Some thoughts.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Kevin
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> On Mar 27, 2012, at 10:47 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts
> >>>>>> <luispo@gmail.com
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>> On 2012-03-19, at 08:41 , Rob Weir wrote:
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after
> >>> AOO
> >>>>>>>> 3.4 releases?
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Lots, and these would complement the rather good ideas already
> >>>>>>> proposed.
> >>>>>>> What we did at OOo actually worked--to attract developers and
> >>>>> contributors
> >>>>>>> of all sorts. What worked against us I do not think I need spell
> >>>>>>> out,
> >>>>> but
> >>>>>>> the cussedness of the code was not really the determining factor.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> What really would help, besides giving would-bes a clean entry, is
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>> have
> >>>>>>> mentors, more or less do-able tasks that are identified as such.
> >>>>>>> (We
> >>>>> tried
> >>>>>>> getting to this many times, and I strongly urged my erstwhile
> >>>>> colleagues in
> >>>>>>> this area for, uhm, years. Finally happened, and we got our to-dos
> >>> but
> >>>>>>> still not clearly identified according to level of difficulty. I
> >>>>>>> can
> >>>>>>> conceive of several  here whose work would assist in the
> >>>>>>> identification
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>> tasks newbies could approach--and even post-newbies-and perhaps
> >>>>>>> even
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>> mentoring.)
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Also, what helps tremendously is what we are doing already:
> >>> presenting
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>> community that is open, friendly, and generally has a good
> > attitude
> >>>>> about
> >>>>>>> what it is doing and where it is going. There are millions using
> >>>>>>> OOo
> >>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>> their primary ODF implementation, and those mostly include those
> >>>>>>> who
> >>>>> have
> >>>>>>> come to it via the national or sub-national government agency. I
> >>> think
> >>>>> it's
> >>>>>>> about time that they are looking to AOO for the next step.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I think the idea of a new contributor mentor is essential.   This
> > is
> >>>>>> true
> >>>>>> for coders, but also website, translation, documentation, test, UI,
> >>>>>> etc.
> >>>>>> What we have today is very much a "swim or sink" and "drink from
> > the
> >>>>>> fire
> >>>>>> hose" approach.  If someone is highly motivated, highly skilled and
> >>>>>> persistent, and is able to withstand the apparent chaos of the
> >>>>>> ooo-dev
> >>>>>> list, and penetrates the noise and asks questions, and repeats
> > their
> >>>>>> questions until answered, then they might have a 50/50 chance of
> >>>>>> contributing.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> But let's be honest with ourselves -- there are a range of projects
> >>>>> someone
> >>>>>> can contribute to.  For would-be volunteers it is a buyer's market.
> >>> If
> >>>>> we
> >>>>>> make it too hard to get involved and contribute, technically,
> >>>>> procedurally,
> >>>>>> socially, then we lose.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> But getting new volunteers on board requires effort.  If someone is
> >>>>>> spending 100% of their time on their own features, then they have
> > no
> >>>>>> time
> >>>>>> to help new volunteers become productive.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> One approach might be to define "essential skills" or "essential
> >>>>> knowledge"
> >>>>>> that a new volunteer needs to master in order to become productive,
> >>> and
> >>>>>> then a list of project members who are willing to help mentor new
> >>>>>> volunteers to acquire those skills.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> For example, for the website, the essential skills might be:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 1) Assume HTML/CSS, we're not here to teach that
> >>>>>> 2) Help them get started with Markdown Text
> >>>>>> 3) Help them use the CMS to generate patches
> >>>>>> 4) Help them build website locally via the scripts
> >>>>>> 5) Understanding the larger site design, including recurring page
> >>>>> elements,
> >>>>>> footers, etc.
> >>>>>> 6) In parallel with above, understanding Apache, roles, decision
> >>>>>> making,
> >>>>>> lazy consensus, CTR versus RTC, what Infra does versus what the
> >>> project
> >>>>> is
> >>>>>> responsible for, etc.
> >>>>>> 7) Help them establish a record of contributions to become a
> >>>>>> committer
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Anyone who has done the above can do 95% of what is needed to
> > become
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>> master of our website.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> It would be wonderful if we had something like that, a check list
> >>>>>> even
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>> curriculum, for other common functions, as well as volunteers able
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>> take
> >>>>>> on new project volunteers willing to help.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> This is all an investment in the future success of the project.  We
> >>>>>> grow
> >>>>> by
> >>>>>> attracting new volunteers.  But the investment is time spent on
> >>>>> mentoring.
> >>>>>> This would all be over-kill for the average Apache PMC of 8-12
> >>>>>> people.
> >>>>> But
> >>>>>> with 10 million lines of code, a PMC nearing 100 members, and the
> >>>>>> largest
> >>>>>> project at Apache, we need an approach to training new volunteers
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> works to scale.  I think something like the above helps get us
> >>>>>> closer.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> -Rob
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> And I can think of at least two, and probably more, national bodies
> >>>>>> so
> >>>>>>> interested.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Do these give us developers straight away? I don't know. The
> >>>>>>> problem
> >>>>> with
> >>>>>>> OOo was, as [not] said ultimately political, not codical
> >>>>>>> (comical?).
> >>>>>>> Engaging these longtime users, as well as new ones, with the
> >>>>> possibilities
> >>>>>>> represented by this community, which is open and
> >>>>>>> unencumbered--ought
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>> be
> >>>>>>> easier.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> My own approach is to focus on ODF and on the benefits offered not
> >>>>>>> only
> >>>>> by
> >>>>>>> the AOO implementation but by its community.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> -louis
> >>>>> 
> >>> 
> 

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>]

Great points in this thread  

Question: Does OO community have a history if working with academic or professional groups to recruit volunteers? Developers, designers and beyond. 

What is the protocol to recruit?

Thoughts?
Kevin

On Mar 29, 2012, at 12:23 PM, <qa...@imsoftwaresystems.com> wrote:

> Hi Rob,
> 
> Well, the large talent pool is available here in India with millions of
> students graduating in Engineering,MCA(Master of computer applications).
> They all look for a project for their final semester. We can somehow try to
> attract them but they also try to see what  is the benefit for them. Most
> of these guys they learn C/Java as part of their  syllabus.But we need to
> retrain them as they generally  just try to pass and not to be master of
> it.
> So we need to train them and make them useful.
> 
> I have not seen the code base yet but based on the search results what i
> have understood is that it is implemented in 
> 
> Java,
> OOBasic,
> Cpp,
> Python,
> XSL,
> ooRexx
> 
> From Freshers point of view they prefer the new languages like
> Java(ofcourse it is a old one but still new when compared to C/C++) or
> advanced stuff like Android. But still we can train people in C++ but it is
> easy to attract people for Java.
> 
> If we know the exact requirement of people then we can try to gather the
> people and train them and make them good to contribute to the project.
> 
> We have a software training institute and staff are from top MNC's.Lot of
> students approach us for Live Projects to gain some real experience. 
> 
> So we may try to accept the people and train them. We charge the students
> for training as we have to pay the trainers. 
> Ultimately what students expect is an experience letter from Apache so that
> they can utilise it for future employment. In addition to issuing the
> certificate we should have their contribution mentioned in our website
> otherwise other job seekers will fake the cetificates.
> 
> I think if the company(Apache) is ready to issue a certificate mentioning
> their contribution towards the project and list their contribution in AOO
> website then it should definetly work.
> 
> Thanks & Regards,
> Ram,
> Im Software Systems
> 
> 
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:11:59 -0400, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:05 PM, <qa...@imsoftwaresystems.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I am sorry i am new to this dev mailing list. What is the real
>>> requirement.
>>> In what areas we need people for the next 1 year. What is the exact
> skill
>>> set needed. Let me see if i can computerof help you in anyway.
>>> i
>>> 
>> Hi Ram,
>> 
>> As you can probably tell, from reading the ooo-dev list posts, we're just
>> finishing up the OpenOffice 3.4 release. So it probably appears chaotic
>> right now, but this is just a sign of the high activity level as we
>> complete the remaining tasks for this release.
>> 
>> We have not had a community discussion about "the next 1 year", so what
>> follows expresses my personal view only.
>> 
>> Areas where we especially need help:
>> 
>> - C/C++ programmers to work on the core OpenOffice code on feature
>> development and bug fixing.
>> 
>> - There is some interest in developing some test automation based on a
> Java
>> testing framework that IBM said they would contribute.  So someone with
>> skills in QA and Java could help with this.
>> 
>> - There is plenty of work to do with manual testing, especially with test
>> case definition.  It might make sense to start with defining the test
> cases
>> and execute them manually at first, but overtime migrate to test
>> automation.
>> 
>> - We have had some discussion about making a more intelligent install
>> program, so it can bring down a small core program and then download
>> additional modules, like spell checkers, language packs, etc., when
> needed,
>> over the internet.
>> 
>> I would also return the question and ask, what kind of things do you want
>> to do?  The project works best, I think, when people are working on
> things
>> that they find interesting.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> -Rob
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Thanks & Regards,
>>> Ram,
>>> Im Software Systems
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:47:30 +0100, Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 28 March 2012 02:38, Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Many great thoughts here.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In addition to supporting the open source movement, perhaps we could
>>>>> market participation as a way to learn and develop skills.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe a certificate for AOO development professional? Work out the key
>>>> skills needed to contribute to development and write a set of
>>>> indicative
>>>> assessment criteria. Get a mentor to verify the candidate's evidence
>>>> that
>>>> they can meet the criteria. If there was interest in it we have the
>>>> facilities to support it including secure on-line testing facilities
>>>> and
>>> a
>>>> Drupal system for managing coursework evidence which we would do as a
>>> free
>>>> contribution to the project. We'd just need help defining the criteria
>>> from
>>>> the most experienced developers.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> As a newbie, it appears that much our message is around what we need
> -
>>>>> which is essential to understand, however we may want to focus on why
>>>>> someone may want to join and help them realize their goals.
>>>>> 
>>>>> For example, if someone is looking to demonstrate their skills and
>>>>> develop
>>>>> portfolio work products, then AOO offers a sandbox of opportunity.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> And a potential certification of skills.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Some thoughts.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Kevin
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mar 27, 2012, at 10:47 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts
>>>>>> <luispo@gmail.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> On 2012-03-19, at 08:41 , Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after
>>> AOO
>>>>>>>> 3.4 releases?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Lots, and these would complement the rather good ideas already
>>>>>>> proposed.
>>>>>>> What we did at OOo actually worked--to attract developers and
>>>>> contributors
>>>>>>> of all sorts. What worked against us I do not think I need spell
>>>>>>> out,
>>>>> but
>>>>>>> the cussedness of the code was not really the determining factor.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> What really would help, besides giving would-bes a clean entry, is
>>>>>>> to
>>>>> have
>>>>>>> mentors, more or less do-able tasks that are identified as such.
>>>>>>> (We
>>>>> tried
>>>>>>> getting to this many times, and I strongly urged my erstwhile
>>>>> colleagues in
>>>>>>> this area for, uhm, years. Finally happened, and we got our to-dos
>>> but
>>>>>>> still not clearly identified according to level of difficulty. I
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> conceive of several  here whose work would assist in the
>>>>>>> identification
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> tasks newbies could approach--and even post-newbies-and perhaps
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> mentoring.)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Also, what helps tremendously is what we are doing already:
>>> presenting
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> community that is open, friendly, and generally has a good
> attitude
>>>>> about
>>>>>>> what it is doing and where it is going. There are millions using
>>>>>>> OOo
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> their primary ODF implementation, and those mostly include those
>>>>>>> who
>>>>> have
>>>>>>> come to it via the national or sub-national government agency. I
>>> think
>>>>> it's
>>>>>>> about time that they are looking to AOO for the next step.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think the idea of a new contributor mentor is essential.   This
> is
>>>>>> true
>>>>>> for coders, but also website, translation, documentation, test, UI,
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>> What we have today is very much a "swim or sink" and "drink from
> the
>>>>>> fire
>>>>>> hose" approach.  If someone is highly motivated, highly skilled and
>>>>>> persistent, and is able to withstand the apparent chaos of the
>>>>>> ooo-dev
>>>>>> list, and penetrates the noise and asks questions, and repeats
> their
>>>>>> questions until answered, then they might have a 50/50 chance of
>>>>>> contributing.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But let's be honest with ourselves -- there are a range of projects
>>>>> someone
>>>>>> can contribute to.  For would-be volunteers it is a buyer's market.
>>> If
>>>>> we
>>>>>> make it too hard to get involved and contribute, technically,
>>>>> procedurally,
>>>>>> socially, then we lose.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But getting new volunteers on board requires effort.  If someone is
>>>>>> spending 100% of their time on their own features, then they have
> no
>>>>>> time
>>>>>> to help new volunteers become productive.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> One approach might be to define "essential skills" or "essential
>>>>> knowledge"
>>>>>> that a new volunteer needs to master in order to become productive,
>>> and
>>>>>> then a list of project members who are willing to help mentor new
>>>>>> volunteers to acquire those skills.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For example, for the website, the essential skills might be:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1) Assume HTML/CSS, we're not here to teach that
>>>>>> 2) Help them get started with Markdown Text
>>>>>> 3) Help them use the CMS to generate patches
>>>>>> 4) Help them build website locally via the scripts
>>>>>> 5) Understanding the larger site design, including recurring page
>>>>> elements,
>>>>>> footers, etc.
>>>>>> 6) In parallel with above, understanding Apache, roles, decision
>>>>>> making,
>>>>>> lazy consensus, CTR versus RTC, what Infra does versus what the
>>> project
>>>>> is
>>>>>> responsible for, etc.
>>>>>> 7) Help them establish a record of contributions to become a
>>>>>> committer
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Anyone who has done the above can do 95% of what is needed to
> become
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> master of our website.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It would be wonderful if we had something like that, a check list
>>>>>> even
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> curriculum, for other common functions, as well as volunteers able
>>>>>> to
>>>>> take
>>>>>> on new project volunteers willing to help.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is all an investment in the future success of the project.  We
>>>>>> grow
>>>>> by
>>>>>> attracting new volunteers.  But the investment is time spent on
>>>>> mentoring.
>>>>>> This would all be over-kill for the average Apache PMC of 8-12
>>>>>> people.
>>>>> But
>>>>>> with 10 million lines of code, a PMC nearing 100 members, and the
>>>>>> largest
>>>>>> project at Apache, we need an approach to training new volunteers
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> works to scale.  I think something like the above helps get us
>>>>>> closer.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And I can think of at least two, and probably more, national bodies
>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> interested.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Do these give us developers straight away? I don't know. The
>>>>>>> problem
>>>>> with
>>>>>>> OOo was, as [not] said ultimately political, not codical
>>>>>>> (comical?).
>>>>>>> Engaging these longtime users, as well as new ones, with the
>>>>> possibilities
>>>>>>> represented by this community, which is open and
>>>>>>> unencumbered--ought
>>>>>>> to
>>>>> be
>>>>>>> easier.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My own approach is to focus on ODF and on the benefits offered not
>>>>>>> only
>>>>> by
>>>>>>> the AOO implementation but by its community.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -louis
>>>>> 
>>> 

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[qa...@imsoftwaresystems.com]

Hi Rob,

Well, the large talent pool is available here in India with millions of
students graduating in Engineering,MCA(Master of computer applications).
They all look for a project for their final semester. We can somehow try to
attract them but they also try to see what  is the benefit for them. Most
of these guys they learn C/Java as part of their  syllabus.But we need to
retrain them as they generally  just try to pass and not to be master of
it.
So we need to train them and make them useful.

I have not seen the code base yet but based on the search results what i
have understood is that it is implemented in 

Java,
OOBasic,
Cpp,
Python,
XSL,
ooRexx

>From Freshers point of view they prefer the new languages like
Java(ofcourse it is a old one but still new when compared to C/C++) or
advanced stuff like Android. But still we can train people in C++ but it is
easy to attract people for Java.

If we know the exact requirement of people then we can try to gather the
people and train them and make them good to contribute to the project.

We have a software training institute and staff are from top MNC's.Lot of
students approach us for Live Projects to gain some real experience. 

So we may try to accept the people and train them. We charge the students
for training as we have to pay the trainers. 
Ultimately what students expect is an experience letter from Apache so that
they can utilise it for future employment. In addition to issuing the
certificate we should have their contribution mentioned in our website
otherwise other job seekers will fake the cetificates.

I think if the company(Apache) is ready to issue a certificate mentioning
their contribution towards the project and list their contribution in AOO
website then it should definetly work.

Thanks & Regards,
Ram,
Im Software Systems


On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:11:59 -0400, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:05 PM, <qa...@imsoftwaresystems.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am sorry i am new to this dev mailing list. What is the real
>> requirement.
>> In what areas we need people for the next 1 year. What is the exact
skill
>> set needed. Let me see if i can computerof help you in anyway.
>>i
>>
> Hi Ram,
> 
> As you can probably tell, from reading the ooo-dev list posts, we're just
> finishing up the OpenOffice 3.4 release. So it probably appears chaotic
> right now, but this is just a sign of the high activity level as we
> complete the remaining tasks for this release.
> 
> We have not had a community discussion about "the next 1 year", so what
> follows expresses my personal view only.
> 
> Areas where we especially need help:
> 
> - C/C++ programmers to work on the core OpenOffice code on feature
> development and bug fixing.
> 
> - There is some interest in developing some test automation based on a
Java
> testing framework that IBM said they would contribute.  So someone with
> skills in QA and Java could help with this.
> 
> - There is plenty of work to do with manual testing, especially with test
> case definition.  It might make sense to start with defining the test
cases
> and execute them manually at first, but overtime migrate to test
> automation.
> 
> - We have had some discussion about making a more intelligent install
> program, so it can bring down a small core program and then download
> additional modules, like spell checkers, language packs, etc., when
needed,
> over the internet.
> 
> I would also return the question and ask, what kind of things do you want
> to do?  The project works best, I think, when people are working on
things
> that they find interesting.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -Rob
> 
> 
> 
>> Thanks & Regards,
>> Ram,
>> Im Software Systems
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:47:30 +0100, Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On 28 March 2012 02:38, Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Many great thoughts here.
>> >>
>> >> In addition to supporting the open source movement, perhaps we could
>> >> market participation as a way to learn and develop skills.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Maybe a certificate for AOO development professional? Work out the key
>> > skills needed to contribute to development and write a set of
>> > indicative
>> > assessment criteria. Get a mentor to verify the candidate's evidence
>> > that
>> > they can meet the criteria. If there was interest in it we have the
>> >  facilities to support it including secure on-line testing facilities
>> >  and
>> a
>> > Drupal system for managing coursework evidence which we would do as a
>> free
>> > contribution to the project. We'd just need help defining the criteria
>> from
>> > the most experienced developers.
>> >
>> >
>> >> As a newbie, it appears that much our message is around what we need
-
>> >> which is essential to understand, however we may want to focus on why
>> >> someone may want to join and help them realize their goals.
>> >>
>> >> For example, if someone is looking to demonstrate their skills and
>> >> develop
>> >> portfolio work products, then AOO offers a sandbox of opportunity.
>> >>
>> >
>> > And a potential certification of skills.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Some thoughts.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Kevin
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mar 27, 2012, at 10:47 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts
>> >> > <luispo@gmail.com
>> >> >wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >> On 2012-03-19, at 08:41 , Rob Weir wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after
>> AOO
>> >> >>> 3.4 releases?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Lots, and these would complement the rather good ideas already
>> >> >> proposed.
>> >> >> What we did at OOo actually worked--to attract developers and
>> >> contributors
>> >> >> of all sorts. What worked against us I do not think I need spell
>> >> >> out,
>> >> but
>> >> >> the cussedness of the code was not really the determining factor.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What really would help, besides giving would-bes a clean entry, is
>> >> >> to
>> >> have
>> >> >> mentors, more or less do-able tasks that are identified as such.
>> >> >> (We
>> >> tried
>> >> >> getting to this many times, and I strongly urged my erstwhile
>> >> colleagues in
>> >> >> this area for, uhm, years. Finally happened, and we got our to-dos
>> but
>> >> >> still not clearly identified according to level of difficulty. I
>> >> >> can
>> >> >> conceive of several  here whose work would assist in the
>> >> >> identification
>> >> of
>> >> >> tasks newbies could approach--and even post-newbies-and perhaps
>> >> >> even
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> mentoring.)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Also, what helps tremendously is what we are doing already:
>> presenting
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> community that is open, friendly, and generally has a good
attitude
>> >> about
>> >> >> what it is doing and where it is going. There are millions using
>> >> >> OOo
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> their primary ODF implementation, and those mostly include those
>> >> >> who
>> >> have
>> >> >> come to it via the national or sub-national government agency. I
>> think
>> >> it's
>> >> >> about time that they are looking to AOO for the next step.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > I think the idea of a new contributor mentor is essential.   This
is
>> >> > true
>> >> > for coders, but also website, translation, documentation, test, UI,
>> >> > etc.
>> >> > What we have today is very much a "swim or sink" and "drink from
the
>> >> > fire
>> >> > hose" approach.  If someone is highly motivated, highly skilled and
>> >> > persistent, and is able to withstand the apparent chaos of the
>> >> > ooo-dev
>> >> > list, and penetrates the noise and asks questions, and repeats
their
>> >> > questions until answered, then they might have a 50/50 chance of
>> >> > contributing.
>> >> >
>> >> > But let's be honest with ourselves -- there are a range of projects
>> >> someone
>> >> > can contribute to.  For would-be volunteers it is a buyer's market.
>> If
>> >> we
>> >> > make it too hard to get involved and contribute, technically,
>> >> procedurally,
>> >> > socially, then we lose.
>> >> >
>> >> > But getting new volunteers on board requires effort.  If someone is
>> >> > spending 100% of their time on their own features, then they have
no
>> >> > time
>> >> > to help new volunteers become productive.
>> >> >
>> >> > One approach might be to define "essential skills" or "essential
>> >> knowledge"
>> >> > that a new volunteer needs to master in order to become productive,
>> and
>> >> > then a list of project members who are willing to help mentor new
>> >> > volunteers to acquire those skills.
>> >> >
>> >> > For example, for the website, the essential skills might be:
>> >> >
>> >> > 1) Assume HTML/CSS, we're not here to teach that
>> >> > 2) Help them get started with Markdown Text
>> >> > 3) Help them use the CMS to generate patches
>> >> > 4) Help them build website locally via the scripts
>> >> > 5) Understanding the larger site design, including recurring page
>> >> elements,
>> >> > footers, etc.
>> >> > 6) In parallel with above, understanding Apache, roles, decision
>> >> > making,
>> >> > lazy consensus, CTR versus RTC, what Infra does versus what the
>> project
>> >> is
>> >> > responsible for, etc.
>> >> > 7) Help them establish a record of contributions to become a
>> >> > committer
>> >> >
>> >> > Anyone who has done the above can do 95% of what is needed to
become
>> >> > a
>> >> > master of our website.
>> >> >
>> >> > It would be wonderful if we had something like that, a check list
>> >> > even
>> >> > a
>> >> > curriculum, for other common functions, as well as volunteers able
>> >> > to
>> >> take
>> >> > on new project volunteers willing to help.
>> >> >
>> >> > This is all an investment in the future success of the project.  We
>> >> > grow
>> >> by
>> >> > attracting new volunteers.  But the investment is time spent on
>> >> mentoring.
>> >> > This would all be over-kill for the average Apache PMC of 8-12
>> >> > people.
>> >>  But
>> >> > with 10 million lines of code, a PMC nearing 100 members, and the
>> >> > largest
>> >> > project at Apache, we need an approach to training new volunteers
>> >> > that
>> >> > works to scale.  I think something like the above helps get us
>> >> > closer.
>> >> >
>> >> > -Rob
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > And I can think of at least two, and probably more, national bodies
>> >> > so
>> >> >> interested.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Do these give us developers straight away? I don't know. The
>> >> >> problem
>> >> with
>> >> >> OOo was, as [not] said ultimately political, not codical
>> >> >> (comical?).
>> >> >> Engaging these longtime users, as well as new ones, with the
>> >> possibilities
>> >> >> represented by this community, which is open and
>> >> >> unencumbered--ought
>> >> >> to
>> >> be
>> >> >> easier.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> My own approach is to focus on ODF and on the benefits offered not
>> >> >> only
>> >> by
>> >> >> the AOO implementation but by its community.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -louis
>> >>
>>

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:05 PM, <qa...@imsoftwaresystems.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am sorry i am new to this dev mailing list. What is the real requirement.
> In what areas we need people for the next 1 year. What is the exact skill
> set needed. Let me see if i can help you in anyway.
>
>
Hi Ram,

As you can probably tell, from reading the ooo-dev list posts, we're just
finishing up the OpenOffice 3.4 release. So it probably appears chaotic
right now, but this is just a sign of the high activity level as we
complete the remaining tasks for this release.

We have not had a community discussion about "the next 1 year", so what
follows expresses my personal view only.

Areas where we especially need help:

- C/C++ programmers to work on the core OpenOffice code on feature
development and bug fixing.

- There is some interest in developing some test automation based on a Java
testing framework that IBM said they would contribute.  So someone with
skills in QA and Java could help with this.

- There is plenty of work to do with manual testing, especially with test
case definition.  It might make sense to start with defining the test cases
and execute them manually at first, but overtime migrate to test automation.

- We have had some discussion about making a more intelligent install
program, so it can bring down a small core program and then download
additional modules, like spell checkers, language packs, etc., when needed,
over the internet.

I would also return the question and ask, what kind of things do you want
to do?  The project works best, I think, when people are working on things
that they find interesting.

Regards,

-Rob



> Thanks & Regards,
> Ram,
> Im Software Systems
>
>
>
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:47:30 +0100, Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 28 March 2012 02:38, Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Many great thoughts here.
> >>
> >> In addition to supporting the open source movement, perhaps we could
> >> market participation as a way to learn and develop skills.
> >>
> >
> > Maybe a certificate for AOO development professional? Work out the key
> > skills needed to contribute to development and write a set of indicative
> > assessment criteria. Get a mentor to verify the candidate's evidence that
> > they can meet the criteria. If there was interest in it we have the
> >  facilities to support it including secure on-line testing facilities and
> a
> > Drupal system for managing coursework evidence which we would do as a
> free
> > contribution to the project. We'd just need help defining the criteria
> from
> > the most experienced developers.
> >
> >
> >> As a newbie, it appears that much our message is around what we need -
> >> which is essential to understand, however we may want to focus on why
> >> someone may want to join and help them realize their goals.
> >>
> >> For example, if someone is looking to demonstrate their skills and
> >> develop
> >> portfolio work products, then AOO offers a sandbox of opportunity.
> >>
> >
> > And a potential certification of skills.
> >
> >>
> >> Some thoughts.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Kevin
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mar 27, 2012, at 10:47 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts <luispo@gmail.com
> >> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hi,
> >> >> On 2012-03-19, at 08:41 , Rob Weir wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after
> AOO
> >> >>> 3.4 releases?
> >> >>
> >> >> Lots, and these would complement the rather good ideas already
> >> >> proposed.
> >> >> What we did at OOo actually worked--to attract developers and
> >> contributors
> >> >> of all sorts. What worked against us I do not think I need spell out,
> >> but
> >> >> the cussedness of the code was not really the determining factor.
> >> >>
> >> >> What really would help, besides giving would-bes a clean entry, is to
> >> have
> >> >> mentors, more or less do-able tasks that are identified as such. (We
> >> tried
> >> >> getting to this many times, and I strongly urged my erstwhile
> >> colleagues in
> >> >> this area for, uhm, years. Finally happened, and we got our to-dos
> but
> >> >> still not clearly identified according to level of difficulty. I can
> >> >> conceive of several  here whose work would assist in the
> >> >> identification
> >> of
> >> >> tasks newbies could approach--and even post-newbies-and perhaps even
> >> >> in
> >> >> mentoring.)
> >> >>
> >> >> Also, what helps tremendously is what we are doing already:
> presenting
> >> >> a
> >> >> community that is open, friendly, and generally has a good attitude
> >> about
> >> >> what it is doing and where it is going. There are millions using OOo
> >> >> as
> >> >> their primary ODF implementation, and those mostly include those who
> >> have
> >> >> come to it via the national or sub-national government agency. I
> think
> >> it's
> >> >> about time that they are looking to AOO for the next step.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > I think the idea of a new contributor mentor is essential.   This is
> >> > true
> >> > for coders, but also website, translation, documentation, test, UI,
> >> > etc.
> >> > What we have today is very much a "swim or sink" and "drink from the
> >> > fire
> >> > hose" approach.  If someone is highly motivated, highly skilled and
> >> > persistent, and is able to withstand the apparent chaos of the ooo-dev
> >> > list, and penetrates the noise and asks questions, and repeats their
> >> > questions until answered, then they might have a 50/50 chance of
> >> > contributing.
> >> >
> >> > But let's be honest with ourselves -- there are a range of projects
> >> someone
> >> > can contribute to.  For would-be volunteers it is a buyer's market.
> If
> >> we
> >> > make it too hard to get involved and contribute, technically,
> >> procedurally,
> >> > socially, then we lose.
> >> >
> >> > But getting new volunteers on board requires effort.  If someone is
> >> > spending 100% of their time on their own features, then they have no
> >> > time
> >> > to help new volunteers become productive.
> >> >
> >> > One approach might be to define "essential skills" or "essential
> >> knowledge"
> >> > that a new volunteer needs to master in order to become productive,
> and
> >> > then a list of project members who are willing to help mentor new
> >> > volunteers to acquire those skills.
> >> >
> >> > For example, for the website, the essential skills might be:
> >> >
> >> > 1) Assume HTML/CSS, we're not here to teach that
> >> > 2) Help them get started with Markdown Text
> >> > 3) Help them use the CMS to generate patches
> >> > 4) Help them build website locally via the scripts
> >> > 5) Understanding the larger site design, including recurring page
> >> elements,
> >> > footers, etc.
> >> > 6) In parallel with above, understanding Apache, roles, decision
> >> > making,
> >> > lazy consensus, CTR versus RTC, what Infra does versus what the
> project
> >> is
> >> > responsible for, etc.
> >> > 7) Help them establish a record of contributions to become a committer
> >> >
> >> > Anyone who has done the above can do 95% of what is needed to become a
> >> > master of our website.
> >> >
> >> > It would be wonderful if we had something like that, a check list even
> >> > a
> >> > curriculum, for other common functions, as well as volunteers able to
> >> take
> >> > on new project volunteers willing to help.
> >> >
> >> > This is all an investment in the future success of the project.  We
> >> > grow
> >> by
> >> > attracting new volunteers.  But the investment is time spent on
> >> mentoring.
> >> > This would all be over-kill for the average Apache PMC of 8-12 people.
> >>  But
> >> > with 10 million lines of code, a PMC nearing 100 members, and the
> >> > largest
> >> > project at Apache, we need an approach to training new volunteers that
> >> > works to scale.  I think something like the above helps get us closer.
> >> >
> >> > -Rob
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > And I can think of at least two, and probably more, national bodies so
> >> >> interested.
> >> >>
> >> >> Do these give us developers straight away? I don't know. The problem
> >> with
> >> >> OOo was, as [not] said ultimately political, not codical (comical?).
> >> >> Engaging these longtime users, as well as new ones, with the
> >> possibilities
> >> >> represented by this community, which is open and unencumbered--ought
> >> >> to
> >> be
> >> >> easier.
> >> >>
> >> >> My own approach is to focus on ODF and on the benefits offered not
> >> >> only
> >> by
> >> >> the AOO implementation but by its community.
> >> >>
> >> >> -louis
> >>
>

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[qa...@imsoftwaresystems.com]

Hi,

I am sorry i am new to this dev mailing list. What is the real requirement.
In what areas we need people for the next 1 year. What is the exact skill
set needed. Let me see if i can help you in anyway.

Thanks & Regards,
Ram,
Im Software Systems



On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:47:30 +0100, Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 March 2012 02:38, Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Many great thoughts here.
>>
>> In addition to supporting the open source movement, perhaps we could
>> market participation as a way to learn and develop skills.
>>
> 
> Maybe a certificate for AOO development professional? Work out the key
> skills needed to contribute to development and write a set of indicative
> assessment criteria. Get a mentor to verify the candidate's evidence that
> they can meet the criteria. If there was interest in it we have the
>  facilities to support it including secure on-line testing facilities and
a
> Drupal system for managing coursework evidence which we would do as a
free
> contribution to the project. We'd just need help defining the criteria
from
> the most experienced developers.
> 
> 
>> As a newbie, it appears that much our message is around what we need -
>> which is essential to understand, however we may want to focus on why
>> someone may want to join and help them realize their goals.
>>
>> For example, if someone is looking to demonstrate their skills and
>> develop
>> portfolio work products, then AOO offers a sandbox of opportunity.
>>
> 
> And a potential certification of skills.
> 
>>
>> Some thoughts.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Kevin
>>
>>
>> On Mar 27, 2012, at 10:47 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> > On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts <luispo@gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi,
>> >> On 2012-03-19, at 08:41 , Rob Weir wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after
AOO
>> >>> 3.4 releases?
>> >>
>> >> Lots, and these would complement the rather good ideas already
>> >> proposed.
>> >> What we did at OOo actually worked--to attract developers and
>> contributors
>> >> of all sorts. What worked against us I do not think I need spell out,
>> but
>> >> the cussedness of the code was not really the determining factor.
>> >>
>> >> What really would help, besides giving would-bes a clean entry, is to
>> have
>> >> mentors, more or less do-able tasks that are identified as such. (We
>> tried
>> >> getting to this many times, and I strongly urged my erstwhile
>> colleagues in
>> >> this area for, uhm, years. Finally happened, and we got our to-dos
but
>> >> still not clearly identified according to level of difficulty. I can
>> >> conceive of several  here whose work would assist in the
>> >> identification
>> of
>> >> tasks newbies could approach--and even post-newbies-and perhaps even
>> >> in
>> >> mentoring.)
>> >>
>> >> Also, what helps tremendously is what we are doing already:
presenting
>> >> a
>> >> community that is open, friendly, and generally has a good attitude
>> about
>> >> what it is doing and where it is going. There are millions using OOo
>> >> as
>> >> their primary ODF implementation, and those mostly include those who
>> have
>> >> come to it via the national or sub-national government agency. I
think
>> it's
>> >> about time that they are looking to AOO for the next step.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > I think the idea of a new contributor mentor is essential.   This is
>> > true
>> > for coders, but also website, translation, documentation, test, UI,
>> > etc.
>> > What we have today is very much a "swim or sink" and "drink from the
>> > fire
>> > hose" approach.  If someone is highly motivated, highly skilled and
>> > persistent, and is able to withstand the apparent chaos of the ooo-dev
>> > list, and penetrates the noise and asks questions, and repeats their
>> > questions until answered, then they might have a 50/50 chance of
>> > contributing.
>> >
>> > But let's be honest with ourselves -- there are a range of projects
>> someone
>> > can contribute to.  For would-be volunteers it is a buyer's market. 
If
>> we
>> > make it too hard to get involved and contribute, technically,
>> procedurally,
>> > socially, then we lose.
>> >
>> > But getting new volunteers on board requires effort.  If someone is
>> > spending 100% of their time on their own features, then they have no
>> > time
>> > to help new volunteers become productive.
>> >
>> > One approach might be to define "essential skills" or "essential
>> knowledge"
>> > that a new volunteer needs to master in order to become productive,
and
>> > then a list of project members who are willing to help mentor new
>> > volunteers to acquire those skills.
>> >
>> > For example, for the website, the essential skills might be:
>> >
>> > 1) Assume HTML/CSS, we're not here to teach that
>> > 2) Help them get started with Markdown Text
>> > 3) Help them use the CMS to generate patches
>> > 4) Help them build website locally via the scripts
>> > 5) Understanding the larger site design, including recurring page
>> elements,
>> > footers, etc.
>> > 6) In parallel with above, understanding Apache, roles, decision
>> > making,
>> > lazy consensus, CTR versus RTC, what Infra does versus what the
project
>> is
>> > responsible for, etc.
>> > 7) Help them establish a record of contributions to become a committer
>> >
>> > Anyone who has done the above can do 95% of what is needed to become a
>> > master of our website.
>> >
>> > It would be wonderful if we had something like that, a check list even
>> > a
>> > curriculum, for other common functions, as well as volunteers able to
>> take
>> > on new project volunteers willing to help.
>> >
>> > This is all an investment in the future success of the project.  We
>> > grow
>> by
>> > attracting new volunteers.  But the investment is time spent on
>> mentoring.
>> > This would all be over-kill for the average Apache PMC of 8-12 people.
>>  But
>> > with 10 million lines of code, a PMC nearing 100 members, and the
>> > largest
>> > project at Apache, we need an approach to training new volunteers that
>> > works to scale.  I think something like the above helps get us closer.
>> >
>> > -Rob
>> >
>> >
>> > And I can think of at least two, and probably more, national bodies so
>> >> interested.
>> >>
>> >> Do these give us developers straight away? I don't know. The problem
>> with
>> >> OOo was, as [not] said ultimately political, not codical (comical?).
>> >> Engaging these longtime users, as well as new ones, with the
>> possibilities
>> >> represented by this community, which is open and unencumbered--ought
>> >> to
>> be
>> >> easier.
>> >>
>> >> My own approach is to focus on ODF and on the benefits offered not
>> >> only
>> by
>> >> the AOO implementation but by its community.
>> >>
>> >> -louis
>>

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com>]

On 28 March 2012 02:38, Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Many great thoughts here.
>
> In addition to supporting the open source movement, perhaps we could
> market participation as a way to learn and develop skills.
>

Maybe a certificate for AOO development professional? Work out the key
skills needed to contribute to development and write a set of indicative
assessment criteria. Get a mentor to verify the candidate's evidence that
they can meet the criteria. If there was interest in it we have the
 facilities to support it including secure on-line testing facilities and a
Drupal system for managing coursework evidence which we would do as a free
contribution to the project. We'd just need help defining the criteria from
the most experienced developers.


> As a newbie, it appears that much our message is around what we need -
> which is essential to understand, however we may want to focus on why
> someone may want to join and help them realize their goals.
>
> For example, if someone is looking to demonstrate their skills and develop
> portfolio work products, then AOO offers a sandbox of opportunity.
>

And a potential certification of skills.

>
> Some thoughts.
>
> Regards,
> Kevin
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2012, at 10:47 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts <luispo@gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >> On 2012-03-19, at 08:41 , Rob Weir wrote:
> >>
> >>> Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after AOO
> >>> 3.4 releases?
> >>
> >> Lots, and these would complement the rather good ideas already proposed.
> >> What we did at OOo actually worked--to attract developers and
> contributors
> >> of all sorts. What worked against us I do not think I need spell out,
> but
> >> the cussedness of the code was not really the determining factor.
> >>
> >> What really would help, besides giving would-bes a clean entry, is to
> have
> >> mentors, more or less do-able tasks that are identified as such. (We
> tried
> >> getting to this many times, and I strongly urged my erstwhile
> colleagues in
> >> this area for, uhm, years. Finally happened, and we got our to-dos but
> >> still not clearly identified according to level of difficulty. I can
> >> conceive of several  here whose work would assist in the identification
> of
> >> tasks newbies could approach--and even post-newbies-and perhaps even in
> >> mentoring.)
> >>
> >> Also, what helps tremendously is what we are doing already: presenting a
> >> community that is open, friendly, and generally has a good attitude
> about
> >> what it is doing and where it is going. There are millions using OOo as
> >> their primary ODF implementation, and those mostly include those who
> have
> >> come to it via the national or sub-national government agency. I think
> it's
> >> about time that they are looking to AOO for the next step.
> >>
> >>
> > I think the idea of a new contributor mentor is essential.   This is true
> > for coders, but also website, translation, documentation, test, UI, etc.
> > What we have today is very much a "swim or sink" and "drink from the fire
> > hose" approach.  If someone is highly motivated, highly skilled and
> > persistent, and is able to withstand the apparent chaos of the ooo-dev
> > list, and penetrates the noise and asks questions, and repeats their
> > questions until answered, then they might have a 50/50 chance of
> > contributing.
> >
> > But let's be honest with ourselves -- there are a range of projects
> someone
> > can contribute to.  For would-be volunteers it is a buyer's market.  If
> we
> > make it too hard to get involved and contribute, technically,
> procedurally,
> > socially, then we lose.
> >
> > But getting new volunteers on board requires effort.  If someone is
> > spending 100% of their time on their own features, then they have no time
> > to help new volunteers become productive.
> >
> > One approach might be to define "essential skills" or "essential
> knowledge"
> > that a new volunteer needs to master in order to become productive, and
> > then a list of project members who are willing to help mentor new
> > volunteers to acquire those skills.
> >
> > For example, for the website, the essential skills might be:
> >
> > 1) Assume HTML/CSS, we're not here to teach that
> > 2) Help them get started with Markdown Text
> > 3) Help them use the CMS to generate patches
> > 4) Help them build website locally via the scripts
> > 5) Understanding the larger site design, including recurring page
> elements,
> > footers, etc.
> > 6) In parallel with above, understanding Apache, roles, decision making,
> > lazy consensus, CTR versus RTC, what Infra does versus what the project
> is
> > responsible for, etc.
> > 7) Help them establish a record of contributions to become a committer
> >
> > Anyone who has done the above can do 95% of what is needed to become a
> > master of our website.
> >
> > It would be wonderful if we had something like that, a check list even a
> > curriculum, for other common functions, as well as volunteers able to
> take
> > on new project volunteers willing to help.
> >
> > This is all an investment in the future success of the project.  We grow
> by
> > attracting new volunteers.  But the investment is time spent on
> mentoring.
> > This would all be over-kill for the average Apache PMC of 8-12 people.
>  But
> > with 10 million lines of code, a PMC nearing 100 members, and the largest
> > project at Apache, we need an approach to training new volunteers that
> > works to scale.  I think something like the above helps get us closer.
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> >
> > And I can think of at least two, and probably more, national bodies so
> >> interested.
> >>
> >> Do these give us developers straight away? I don't know. The problem
> with
> >> OOo was, as [not] said ultimately political, not codical (comical?).
> >> Engaging these longtime users, as well as new ones, with the
> possibilities
> >> represented by this community, which is open and unencumbered--ought to
> be
> >> easier.
> >>
> >> My own approach is to focus on ODF and on the benefits offered not only
> by
> >> the AOO implementation but by its community.
> >>
> >> -louis
>



-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)

www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
Wales.

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>]

Many great thoughts here. 

In addition to supporting the open source movement, perhaps we could market participation as a way to learn and develop skills. 

As a newbie, it appears that much our message is around what we need - which is essential to understand, however we may want to focus on why someone may want to join and help them realize their goals. 

For example, if someone is looking to demonstrate their skills and develop portfolio work products, then AOO offers a sandbox of opportunity. 

Some thoughts. 

Regards,
Kevin


On Mar 27, 2012, at 10:47 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> On 2012-03-19, at 08:41 , Rob Weir wrote:
>> 
>>> Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after AOO
>>> 3.4 releases?
>> 
>> Lots, and these would complement the rather good ideas already proposed.
>> What we did at OOo actually worked--to attract developers and contributors
>> of all sorts. What worked against us I do not think I need spell out, but
>> the cussedness of the code was not really the determining factor.
>> 
>> What really would help, besides giving would-bes a clean entry, is to have
>> mentors, more or less do-able tasks that are identified as such. (We tried
>> getting to this many times, and I strongly urged my erstwhile colleagues in
>> this area for, uhm, years. Finally happened, and we got our to-dos but
>> still not clearly identified according to level of difficulty. I can
>> conceive of several  here whose work would assist in the identification of
>> tasks newbies could approach--and even post-newbies-and perhaps even in
>> mentoring.)
>> 
>> Also, what helps tremendously is what we are doing already: presenting a
>> community that is open, friendly, and generally has a good attitude about
>> what it is doing and where it is going. There are millions using OOo as
>> their primary ODF implementation, and those mostly include those who have
>> come to it via the national or sub-national government agency. I think it's
>> about time that they are looking to AOO for the next step.
>> 
>> 
> I think the idea of a new contributor mentor is essential.   This is true
> for coders, but also website, translation, documentation, test, UI, etc.
> What we have today is very much a "swim or sink" and "drink from the fire
> hose" approach.  If someone is highly motivated, highly skilled and
> persistent, and is able to withstand the apparent chaos of the ooo-dev
> list, and penetrates the noise and asks questions, and repeats their
> questions until answered, then they might have a 50/50 chance of
> contributing.
> 
> But let's be honest with ourselves -- there are a range of projects someone
> can contribute to.  For would-be volunteers it is a buyer's market.  If we
> make it too hard to get involved and contribute, technically, procedurally,
> socially, then we lose.
> 
> But getting new volunteers on board requires effort.  If someone is
> spending 100% of their time on their own features, then they have no time
> to help new volunteers become productive.
> 
> One approach might be to define "essential skills" or "essential knowledge"
> that a new volunteer needs to master in order to become productive, and
> then a list of project members who are willing to help mentor new
> volunteers to acquire those skills.
> 
> For example, for the website, the essential skills might be:
> 
> 1) Assume HTML/CSS, we're not here to teach that
> 2) Help them get started with Markdown Text
> 3) Help them use the CMS to generate patches
> 4) Help them build website locally via the scripts
> 5) Understanding the larger site design, including recurring page elements,
> footers, etc.
> 6) In parallel with above, understanding Apache, roles, decision making,
> lazy consensus, CTR versus RTC, what Infra does versus what the project is
> responsible for, etc.
> 7) Help them establish a record of contributions to become a committer
> 
> Anyone who has done the above can do 95% of what is needed to become a
> master of our website.
> 
> It would be wonderful if we had something like that, a check list even a
> curriculum, for other common functions, as well as volunteers able to take
> on new project volunteers willing to help.
> 
> This is all an investment in the future success of the project.  We grow by
> attracting new volunteers.  But the investment is time spent on mentoring.
> This would all be over-kill for the average Apache PMC of 8-12 people.  But
> with 10 million lines of code, a PMC nearing 100 members, and the largest
> project at Apache, we need an approach to training new volunteers that
> works to scale.  I think something like the above helps get us closer.
> 
> -Rob
> 
> 
> And I can think of at least two, and probably more, national bodies so
>> interested.
>> 
>> Do these give us developers straight away? I don't know. The problem with
>> OOo was, as [not] said ultimately political, not codical (comical?).
>> Engaging these longtime users, as well as new ones, with the possibilities
>> represented by this community, which is open and unencumbered--ought to be
>> easier.
>> 
>> My own approach is to focus on ODF and on the benefits offered not only by
>> the AOO implementation but by its community.
>> 
>> -louis

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Kevin Grignon <ke...@gmail.com>]

Another thought. 

Perhaps we could expand the message to reference open source product design and development, rather than focus solely on technical tasks. 

This could help us attract a wider range of takented contributors. 

Regards,
Kevin


On Mar 27, 2012, at 10:47 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> On 2012-03-19, at 08:41 , Rob Weir wrote:
>> 
>>> Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after AOO
>>> 3.4 releases?
>> 
>> Lots, and these would complement the rather good ideas already proposed.
>> What we did at OOo actually worked--to attract developers and contributors
>> of all sorts. What worked against us I do not think I need spell out, but
>> the cussedness of the code was not really the determining factor.
>> 
>> What really would help, besides giving would-bes a clean entry, is to have
>> mentors, more or less do-able tasks that are identified as such. (We tried
>> getting to this many times, and I strongly urged my erstwhile colleagues in
>> this area for, uhm, years. Finally happened, and we got our to-dos but
>> still not clearly identified according to level of difficulty. I can
>> conceive of several  here whose work would assist in the identification of
>> tasks newbies could approach--and even post-newbies-and perhaps even in
>> mentoring.)
>> 
>> Also, what helps tremendously is what we are doing already: presenting a
>> community that is open, friendly, and generally has a good attitude about
>> what it is doing and where it is going. There are millions using OOo as
>> their primary ODF implementation, and those mostly include those who have
>> come to it via the national or sub-national government agency. I think it's
>> about time that they are looking to AOO for the next step.
>> 
>> 
> I think the idea of a new contributor mentor is essential.   This is true
> for coders, but also website, translation, documentation, test, UI, etc.
> What we have today is very much a "swim or sink" and "drink from the fire
> hose" approach.  If someone is highly motivated, highly skilled and
> persistent, and is able to withstand the apparent chaos of the ooo-dev
> list, and penetrates the noise and asks questions, and repeats their
> questions until answered, then they might have a 50/50 chance of
> contributing.
> 
> But let's be honest with ourselves -- there are a range of projects someone
> can contribute to.  For would-be volunteers it is a buyer's market.  If we
> make it too hard to get involved and contribute, technically, procedurally,
> socially, then we lose.
> 
> But getting new volunteers on board requires effort.  If someone is
> spending 100% of their time on their own features, then they have no time
> to help new volunteers become productive.
> 
> One approach might be to define "essential skills" or "essential knowledge"
> that a new volunteer needs to master in order to become productive, and
> then a list of project members who are willing to help mentor new
> volunteers to acquire those skills.
> 
> For example, for the website, the essential skills might be:
> 
> 1) Assume HTML/CSS, we're not here to teach that
> 2) Help them get started with Markdown Text
> 3) Help them use the CMS to generate patches
> 4) Help them build website locally via the scripts
> 5) Understanding the larger site design, including recurring page elements,
> footers, etc.
> 6) In parallel with above, understanding Apache, roles, decision making,
> lazy consensus, CTR versus RTC, what Infra does versus what the project is
> responsible for, etc.
> 7) Help them establish a record of contributions to become a committer
> 
> Anyone who has done the above can do 95% of what is needed to become a
> master of our website.
> 
> It would be wonderful if we had something like that, a check list even a
> curriculum, for other common functions, as well as volunteers able to take
> on new project volunteers willing to help.
> 
> This is all an investment in the future success of the project.  We grow by
> attracting new volunteers.  But the investment is time spent on mentoring.
> This would all be over-kill for the average Apache PMC of 8-12 people.  But
> with 10 million lines of code, a PMC nearing 100 members, and the largest
> project at Apache, we need an approach to training new volunteers that
> works to scale.  I think something like the above helps get us closer.
> 
> -Rob
> 
> 
> And I can think of at least two, and probably more, national bodies so
>> interested.
>> 
>> Do these give us developers straight away? I don't know. The problem with
>> OOo was, as [not] said ultimately political, not codical (comical?).
>> Engaging these longtime users, as well as new ones, with the possibilities
>> represented by this community, which is open and unencumbered--ought to be
>> easier.
>> 
>> My own approach is to focus on ODF and on the benefits offered not only by
>> the AOO implementation but by its community.
>> 
>> -louis

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi,
> On 2012-03-19, at 08:41 , Rob Weir wrote:
>
> > Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after AOO
> > 3.4 releases?
>
> Lots, and these would complement the rather good ideas already proposed.
> What we did at OOo actually worked--to attract developers and contributors
> of all sorts. What worked against us I do not think I need spell out, but
> the cussedness of the code was not really the determining factor.
>
> What really would help, besides giving would-bes a clean entry, is to have
> mentors, more or less do-able tasks that are identified as such. (We tried
> getting to this many times, and I strongly urged my erstwhile colleagues in
> this area for, uhm, years. Finally happened, and we got our to-dos but
> still not clearly identified according to level of difficulty. I can
> conceive of several  here whose work would assist in the identification of
> tasks newbies could approach--and even post-newbies-and perhaps even in
> mentoring.)
>
> Also, what helps tremendously is what we are doing already: presenting a
> community that is open, friendly, and generally has a good attitude about
> what it is doing and where it is going. There are millions using OOo as
> their primary ODF implementation, and those mostly include those who have
> come to it via the national or sub-national government agency. I think it's
> about time that they are looking to AOO for the next step.
>
>
I think the idea of a new contributor mentor is essential.   This is true
for coders, but also website, translation, documentation, test, UI, etc.
What we have today is very much a "swim or sink" and "drink from the fire
hose" approach.  If someone is highly motivated, highly skilled and
persistent, and is able to withstand the apparent chaos of the ooo-dev
list, and penetrates the noise and asks questions, and repeats their
questions until answered, then they might have a 50/50 chance of
contributing.

But let's be honest with ourselves -- there are a range of projects someone
can contribute to.  For would-be volunteers it is a buyer's market.  If we
make it too hard to get involved and contribute, technically, procedurally,
socially, then we lose.

But getting new volunteers on board requires effort.  If someone is
spending 100% of their time on their own features, then they have no time
to help new volunteers become productive.

One approach might be to define "essential skills" or "essential knowledge"
that a new volunteer needs to master in order to become productive, and
then a list of project members who are willing to help mentor new
volunteers to acquire those skills.

For example, for the website, the essential skills might be:

1) Assume HTML/CSS, we're not here to teach that
2) Help them get started with Markdown Text
3) Help them use the CMS to generate patches
4) Help them build website locally via the scripts
5) Understanding the larger site design, including recurring page elements,
footers, etc.
6) In parallel with above, understanding Apache, roles, decision making,
lazy consensus, CTR versus RTC, what Infra does versus what the project is
responsible for, etc.
7) Help them establish a record of contributions to become a committer

Anyone who has done the above can do 95% of what is needed to become a
master of our website.

It would be wonderful if we had something like that, a check list even a
curriculum, for other common functions, as well as volunteers able to take
on new project volunteers willing to help.

This is all an investment in the future success of the project.  We grow by
attracting new volunteers.  But the investment is time spent on mentoring.
This would all be over-kill for the average Apache PMC of 8-12 people.  But
with 10 million lines of code, a PMC nearing 100 members, and the largest
project at Apache, we need an approach to training new volunteers that
works to scale.  I think something like the above helps get us closer.

-Rob


And I can think of at least two, and probably more, national bodies so
> interested.
>
> Do these give us developers straight away? I don't know. The problem with
> OOo was, as [not] said ultimately political, not codical (comical?).
> Engaging these longtime users, as well as new ones, with the possibilities
> represented by this community, which is open and unencumbered--ought to be
> easier.
>
> My own approach is to focus on ODF and on the benefits offered not only by
> the AOO implementation but by its community.
>
> -louis

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>]

Hi,
On 2012-03-19, at 08:41 , Rob Weir wrote:

> Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after AOO
> 3.4 releases?

Lots, and these would complement the rather good ideas already proposed. What we did at OOo actually worked--to attract developers and contributors of all sorts. What worked against us I do not think I need spell out, but the cussedness of the code was not really the determining factor. 

What really would help, besides giving would-bes a clean entry, is to have mentors, more or less do-able tasks that are identified as such. (We tried getting to this many times, and I strongly urged my erstwhile colleagues in this area for, uhm, years. Finally happened, and we got our to-dos but still not clearly identified according to level of difficulty. I can conceive of several  here whose work would assist in the identification of tasks newbies could approach--and even post-newbies-and perhaps even in mentoring.)

Also, what helps tremendously is what we are doing already: presenting a community that is open, friendly, and generally has a good attitude about what it is doing and where it is going. There are millions using OOo as their primary ODF implementation, and those mostly include those who have come to it via the national or sub-national government agency. I think it's about time that they are looking to AOO for the next step.

And I can think of at least two, and probably more, national bodies so interested.

Do these give us developers straight away? I don't know. The problem with OOo was, as [not] said ultimately political, not codical (comical?). Engaging these longtime users, as well as new ones, with the possibilities represented by this community, which is open and unencumbered--ought to be easier.

My own approach is to focus on ODF and on the benefits offered not only by the AOO implementation but by its community.

-louis

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Oliver-Rainer Wittmann <or...@googlemail.com>]

Hi,

On 23.03.2012 08:31, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
> On 3/22/12 7:18 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
>> On 03/22/12 11:09, Herbert Duerr wrote:
>>>>> As a quick note, I'd *love* to dive in and start doing some
>>>>> coding on AOOo; it's just that I've no idea where in the
>>>>> heck to start... :)
>>>
>>> Additionally to what Pedro said I'd like to point to our Bugzilla at
>>> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/ which is a fountain of inspiration.
>>> E.g. http://s.apache.org/EdO shows all the ideas with more than five
>>> votes. The potential to use the same tool for tracking bugs,
>>> enhancement and feature ideas indicates the the name Bugzilla is too
>>> narrow and thus the old project to be called Issuezilla.
>>>
>>> Herbert
>>
>> Hmm...
>>
>> Jim is an expert in serf, I suppose ;), so the webdav issues in
>> Bugzilla would be indeed be a good starting point for him ;-).
>>
> excellent, that would be a perfect start to review the new UCP code and provide
> feedback or better improvements.
>
> This would be a good opportunity to understand the concept behind our Universal
> Content Broker (UCB) and the Universal Content Providers (UCP). The WebDAV UCP
> (including http) which is based on serf now and can be used as a start to create
> a new CMIS UCP.
>
> I volunteer to support Jim where I can and I am sure Oliver and Andre will do it
> as well.
>
> Having a native CMIS implementation would be better than one based on Chemistry.
> But that is a detail only. The are enough things to cover starting to define a
> usable Url schema (e.g.
> cmis://<servername>/<whatever-entry>/<directory>/<documentname>[?<param>=<value>...]
>
> ...
>
> The advantage of a CMIS UCP is obvious and it would allow us the interaction
> with many other software systems supporting this standard.
>
>

Cool, an expert in serf.

Yes please, have a review of our serf integration in /main/ucb/source/ucp/webdav/

All comments/remarks/patches/critics/... are welcome.


Best regards, Oliver.

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@googlemail.com>]

On 3/22/12 7:18 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
> On 03/22/12 11:09, Herbert Duerr wrote:
>>>> As a quick note, I'd *love* to dive in and start doing some
>>>> coding on AOOo; it's just that I've no idea where in the
>>>> heck to start... :)
>>
>> Additionally to what Pedro said I'd like to point to our Bugzilla at
>> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/ which is a fountain of inspiration.
>> E.g. http://s.apache.org/EdO shows all the ideas with more than five
>> votes. The potential to use the same tool for tracking bugs,
>> enhancement and feature ideas indicates the the name Bugzilla is too
>> narrow and thus the old project to be called Issuezilla.
>>
>> Herbert
>
> Hmm...
>
> Jim is an expert in serf, I suppose ;), so the webdav issues in
> Bugzilla would be indeed be a good starting point for him ;-).
>
excellent, that would be a perfect start to review the new UCP code and 
provide feedback or better improvements.

This would be a good opportunity to understand the concept behind our 
Universal Content Broker (UCB) and the Universal Content Providers 
(UCP). The WebDAV UCP (including http) which is based on serf now and 
can be used as a start to create a new CMIS UCP.

I volunteer to support Jim where I can and I am sure Oliver and Andre 
will do it as well.

Having a native CMIS implementation would be better than one based on 
Chemistry. But that is a detail only. The are enough things to cover 
starting to define a usable Url schema (e.g. 
cmis://<servername>/<whatever-entry>/<directory>/<documentname>[?<param>=<value>...]
...

The advantage of a CMIS UCP is obvious and it would allow us the 
interaction with many other software systems supporting this standard.


Feel free to contact me

Juergen


> I will add one of my personal favorites to that category:
> we should support CardDav addressbooks using the Mulberry
> vCard library, and webdav was a requirement for this:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/IP_Clearance_Address+Book
>
>
> cheers,
>
> Pedro.
>

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>]

On 03/22/12 11:09, Herbert Duerr wrote:
>>> As a quick note, I'd *love* to dive in and start doing some
>>> coding on AOOo; it's just that I've no idea where in the
>>> heck to start... :)
>
> Additionally to what Pedro said I'd like to point to our Bugzilla at 
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/ which is a fountain of inspiration. 
> E.g. http://s.apache.org/EdO shows all the ideas with more than five 
> votes. The potential to use the same tool for tracking bugs, 
> enhancement and feature ideas indicates the the name Bugzilla is too 
> narrow and thus the old project to be called Issuezilla.
>
> Herbert

Hmm...

Jim is an expert in serf, I suppose ;), so the webdav issues in
Bugzilla would be indeed be a good starting point for him ;-).

I will add one of my personal favorites to that category:
we should support CardDav addressbooks using the Mulberry
vCard library, and webdav was a requirement for this:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/IP_Clearance_Address+Book

cheers,

Pedro.

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Herbert Duerr <hd...@apache.org>]

On 03/22/2012 08:06 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> I'm not sure if Jim meant this or not, but being started doesn't mean
> finding things to do. The first stage is figuring out how to set up a dev
> environment. Could this be sensibly added to (our linked from) the get
> involved page?

Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding.
Developers new to the project should be pointed at
https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/ooo/trunk/main/README
or something similar.

Herbert

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>]

I'm not sure if Jim meant this or not, but being started doesn't mean
finding things to do. The first stage is figuring out how to set up a dev
environment. Could this be sensibly added to (our linked from) the get
involved page?

Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity.
On Mar 22, 2012 5:09 PM, "Herbert Duerr" <hd...@apache.org> wrote:

> As a quick note, I'd *love* to dive in and start doing some
>>> coding on AOOo; it's just that I've no idea where in the
>>> heck to start... :)
>>>
>>
> Additionally to what Pedro said I'd like to point to our Bugzilla at
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/ which is a fountain of inspiration. E.g.
> http://s.apache.org/EdO shows all the ideas with more than five votes.
> The potential to use the same tool for tracking bugs, enhancement and
> feature ideas indicates the the name Bugzilla is too narrow and thus the
> old project to be called Issuezilla.
>
> Herbert
>

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Herbert Duerr <hd...@apache.org>]

>> As a quick note, I'd *love* to dive in and start doing some
>> coding on AOOo; it's just that I've no idea where in the
>> heck to start... :)

Additionally to what Pedro said I'd like to point to our Bugzilla at 
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/ which is a fountain of inspiration. E.g. 
http://s.apache.org/EdO shows all the ideas with more than five votes. 
The potential to use the same tool for tracking bugs, enhancement and 
feature ideas indicates the the name Bugzilla is too narrow and thus the 
old project to be called Issuezilla.

Herbert

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>]

Hi Jim;

On 03/22/12 10:03, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> As a quick note, I'd *love* to dive in and start doing some
> coding on AOOo; it's just that I've no idea where in the
> heck to start... :)
It depends on your particular interests. The codebase is
rather big and there's a lot to do.

There are big tasks that have been around for a while,
like replacing some Category-B software with better
alternatives, and there are new features being planned.

I am also sure that running Simian:
http://www.harukizaemon.com/simian/index.html

would suggest some easy hacks for starters.

We just have to put all the ideas together in a
single Wiki page.

Pedro.

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>]

As a quick note, I'd *love* to dive in and start doing some
coding on AOOo; it's just that I've no idea where in the
heck to start... :)

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com>]

On 20.03.2012 11:09, Armin Le Grand wrote:
> Hi Rob,
>
[..]

Extendign after Reginas eMail:

- refactoring
- featues
- bugfixing
- tutoring

>
> The tradeoffs are hard, but splitting time in
> - refactoring
> - featues
> - bugfixing
> is the key, the ratio is hard to determine, maybe everyone has to find a
> balance for himself.
>

[..]

Sincerely,
	Armin
--
ALG

Re: After AOO 3.4, attracting new contributors

[Armin Le Grand <Ar...@me.com>]

	Hi Rob,

On 19.03.2012 13:41, Rob Weir wrote:
> There have been some side discussions on this topic.  I'd like to
> collect these ideas into one thread.
>
> My observations:
>
> 1) The OpenOffice code base has a reputation of being complex, hard to
> understand, even "haunted".  It is difficult for new developers to get
> involved with it.

Unfortunately true to a degree: There are new code parts which are 
attractive, most stuff based on UNO API and others, but there is also 
the old core code and application code. The UNO API was the start to 
modularize the office, and newer stuff often uses it. The quotient 
between this two classes of code is hard to guess, I personally think 
old code is still more. Most of the old code is in active use and not 
simply to be replaced, just think about more than a decade of fixes and 
extensions made there by developers also not knowing all of it (which is 
simply not possible) and thus leading to more and more entropy even with 
some good designed old interfaces.

> 2) We get regular offers of help from new volunteers for other project
> functions, such documentation, QA, website,etc., but we are not doing
> a great job getting them to be successful contributors in the project.

Right, hurdles when talking about code are (unfortunately) high, 
lowering them would be the prerequisite to attract more and to get to a 
point where the project scales to more developers and doing changes in a 
single area will not risk the whole office functionality.

> 3) Nothing is free.  Making the code easier to understand, or
> mentoring new contributors to the project, these things time and
> effort.

Correct, code refactoring would be necessary in many old code areas. It 
is doable and necessary, I'm doing it for DrawingLayer for six jears now 
and still a long way to go. It's like a gordian knot and even to find 
places to cut parts out for replacement without shredding the whole 
office is not easy. But doing so is possible and leads to better and new 
functionality (see AntiAliasing, better precision, speed, etc...). It 
needs to be done in far more areas than DrawingLayer, though. And it 
unfortunately needs a huge amount of knowledge of the code.

> So there is a natural trade-off between short term progress on
> features and long term growing of the contributor base.  With AOO 3.4
> we have biases the effort toward forward progress on the release. Post
> AOO 3.4 we might want to adjust to a more balanced approach.
>
> Any ideas and the best ways how we can improve in this area after AOO
> 3.4 releases?

The tradeoffs are hard, but splitting time in
- refactoring
- featues
- bugfixing
is the key, the ratio is hard to determine, maybe everyone has to find a 
balance for himself.

Others have detected that problem, and by also not having an endless 
resource count and not too many people with the needed deep knowledge of 
that old code the decision was to at least lower the entry hurdles by 
doing the doable: translating comments and removing unused code. Both 
not leading to direct benefits for the user, but targeted on attracting 
developers.

I personally would not put work in translating comments, but I do put a 
lot of work in dead code identification and removal. We need to go 
beyond that by refactoring, that is the key for slowly moving the big 
old codebase to deeper water, and I'll continue to do so for 
DrawingLayer. I hope to get back to aw080 (already available as branch 
under /branches/alg/aw080) where many deep changes to the DrawingLayer 
cores are already started, but not yet finished.

> -Rob
>

Sincerely,
	Armin
--
ALG