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Posted to modperl@perl.apache.org by Philip Mak <pm...@aaanime.net> on 2001/10/03 05:54:42 UTC
What hourly rate to charge for programming?
I've had about two years of experience with perl, and one year of
experience with mod_perl and MySQL.
I've been doing contract programming jobs for people and charged by the
hour. The rate I currently charge them ($40) was kind of chosen randomly.
I'd like to find out if this figure is too high/too low. Does anyone here
have any experiences to share?
Re: [VOT] What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
Hey guys..MASSIVELY OFF TOPIC!!!!!! :( :( :(
At 12:24 AM 10/3/2001 -0400, Michael Bacarella wrote:
> > I've had about two years of experience with perl, and one year of
> > experience with mod_perl and MySQL.
> >
> > I've been doing contract programming jobs for people and charged by the
> > hour. The rate I currently charge them ($40) was kind of chosen randomly.
> > I'd like to find out if this figure is too high/too low. Does anyone here
> > have any experiences to share?
>
>Contract programming is entirely different from salaried work.
>
>Assuming you live in the United States and are charging US dollars,
>Consider:
>
> Taxes (including an additional self-employment tax).
>
> Insurance (health, general liability, and possibly others)
>
> (Home) Office Expenses -- stuff you use to generate invoices,
> stuff you
> use to do your actual work if done in your home, rent, etc.
>
> Continued education -- consultants are expected to be experts.
>
> Greater risk. You generally will also never work as much as
> you'd like to.
>
> Your clients also get to wash their hands of you completely. Your
> expenses are a direct tax writeoff, rather than an additional
> accounting headache.
>
>
>After deducting all of the above, a $40/hr rate starts looking more like
>an $18/hr rate, and maybe even less. Consultants don't _just_ bill
>$100/hr because they're scam artists. :)
It depends on your location of course. I notice that Michael is in
Manhattan which is a pretty expensive salary area of the USA. And it also
depends on how long you are on a contract -- 6 months? A year at a time? or
just a week or two to solve a specialized problem?
>You're charging effectively half of what a salaried perl/mysql hacker
>costs. Humility is a valuable business trait, but I'm positive you're
>worth more than you're charging.
Maybe.
Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Posted by "Bryan T. Schmidt" <bt...@profitool.com>.
>
>
>I've had about two years of experience with perl, and one year of
>experience with mod_perl and MySQL.
>
>I've been doing contract programming jobs for people and charged by the
>hour. The rate I currently charge them ($40) was kind of chosen randomly.
>I'd like to find out if this figure is too high/too low. Does anyone here
>have any experiences to share?
>
My company normally does short term work (less than a month). Rates are
along the lines of $150/hour for the really short stuff, on down to
$100/hour for well-defined, known length contract stuff.
Don't cheat yourself ... as a freelance, if they are not willing to put
up $80 to $100 an hour, they may not be worth your time by the time you
fool with actually getting their business (your own little marketing
dept :-) , administrative stuff to document the project, taxes, and an
occasional trip to your para-legal or attorney.
Thats just my $0.02 (er, 4 minutes, rounds up to 1/4 hour, thats $40 dude)
-Bryan
Re: [OT] Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Posted by RaFaL Pocztarski <ad...@rfl.pl>.
Hi,
This thread is very off-topic here but it's interresting and maybe it
should go to jobs-discuss@perl.org or somewhere else. I think a lot of
people have many problems with all of those public-relations matters,
especially when they want to start working as an independent programmer.
A big problem is also not only how much to charge, but how to actually
find clients, etc. I see many experienced programmers here who could
share their knowlegde with people just starting their career. I'm sure
that there are a lot of easier works out there, maybe not for $40/h but
$20/h or even less, but it's not so easy to find them for people who
don't know that market very well.
Anyone interrested? I suggest a move to jobs-discuss@perl.org list.
- RaFaL Pocztarski.
> > > > Now take the amount you want to make and divide it by the number
> > > > of hours you came up with above ($40,000 / 1,000). You get $40.
> > > > That's your target hourly rate.
> > >
> > > $40K as a consultant is much less spendable money than $40K as an
> > > employee.
> >
> > Yes, that's an additional 7.5% for social security. In addition, you
> > have to take care of your own benefits, etc.
> >
> > I'd recommend that you start to inch up your rate with new clients,
> > and that you try and see what your market will bear.
Re: [OT] Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Posted by "Richard L. Goerwitz III" <ri...@goerwitz.com>.
> > > Now take the amount you want to make and divide it by the number
> > > of hours you came up with above ($40,000 / 1,000). You get $40.
> > > That's your target hourly rate.
> >
> > $40K as a consultant is much less spendable money than $40K as an
> > employee.
>
> Yes, that's an additional 7.5% for social security. In addition, you
> have to take care of your own benefits, etc.
>
> I'd recommend that you start to inch up your rate with new clients,
> and that you try and see what your market will bear.
I agree with this; but at the same time take your own circumstances
into consideration: If you're young, don't live a profligate life-
style, and like people and work, then don't worry about the money
so much.
Someone suggested charging $100/hour - more for mod_perl work. I
have a different slant. I like mod_perl and like to encourage its
use. I charge the same rate to everbody whether it's mod_perl or
not. And I also usually try to work training into contracts; i.e.,
I try to work things out so that I not only cut mod_perl (or Emb-
perl) code for clients, but also get to train their people on what
I'm doing, if they aren't already intimately familiar with the tech-
nology. Sometimes, actually, training is all the client wants.
Another thought:
For clients who keep coming back for more work, and who are flexi-
ble about schedules, you should consider charging a lower rate. It
is extremely valuable to have clients around that you can go to when
you're "between" other jobs. Hang onto them. Give them a break if
that helps.
My _family_ actually sometimes pressures me to lower rates. I've
been doing work lately for (among others) a big environmentalist
nonprofit near Washington. My fifteen year-old son, who is a rabid
environmentalist, said I should charge them less because the work
they are doing is so valuable to the community. I told him it meant
less money in his pocket as well as mine. He said he didn't care,
so I dropped my rates ten percent :-).
The bottom line is that it's really not about the money. If you're
good and you like people, and you don't think God put on earth to
drive a BMW and eat out every night, then you'll find you can get
along quite well charging reasonable rates. Your clients will love
you. You'll be a happy guy. And you'll help spread open-source
technology all around.
--
Richard Goerwitz richard@Goerwitz.COM
tel: 401 438 8978
Re: [OT] Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Posted by ed phillips <ar...@sirius.com>.
Perrin Harkins wrote:
>
> > Now take the amount you want to make and divide it by the number
> > of hours you came up with above ($40,000 / 1,000). You get $40.
> > That's your target hourly rate. And despite what they high-flying
> > .com weanies were saying a year ago, that's going to be a nice
> > living for a young guy unless you're smack in the middle of a
> > high-cost area and can't bother to cook your own meals.
>
> Don't forget that self-employed people in the US must pay considerably more
> in social security, as well as covering the full cost of their own health
> insurance and other needed benefits. $40K as a consultant is much less
> spendable money than $40K as an employee.
> - Perrin
Yes, that's an additional 7.5% for social security. In addition, you
have to take care of your own benefits, etc.
Market downturns can be a better time for contract work over full-time,
especially since stock options don't mean what they do during an upturn.
;-) And many employers don't have the resources to take on full-time
staff.
I'd recommend that you start to inch up your rate with new clients, and
that you try and see what your market will bear. Your target should be
$100+ in the U.S. for basic consulting and more for mod_perl specific
work, again if your market will bear it.
Good Luck,
Ed
[OT] Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Posted by Perrin Harkins <pe...@elem.com>.
> Now take the amount you want to make and divide it by the number
> of hours you came up with above ($40,000 / 1,000). You get $40.
> That's your target hourly rate. And despite what they high-flying
> .com weanies were saying a year ago, that's going to be a nice
> living for a young guy unless you're smack in the middle of a
> high-cost area and can't bother to cook your own meals.
Don't forget that self-employed people in the US must pay considerably more
in social security, as well as covering the full cost of their own health
insurance and other needed benefits. $40K as a consultant is much less
spendable money than $40K as an employee.
- Perrin
[OT] Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Posted by Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com>.
Hi,
you might want to check the past issues of Linux Journal, there was a series
of articles on becoming a consultant / independent programmer a few months
ago.
--
_______________________________________________________________________
Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com> -- CTO
k n o w s c a p e : // venture knowledge agency www.knowscape.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any other
invention, with the possible exceptions of handguns and Tequila.
Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Posted by "Richard L. Goerwitz III" <ri...@goerwitz.com>.
Philip Mak wrote, asking about whether he's chargin the right
hourly rate. He describes his background as:
>
> I've had about two years of experience with perl, and one year of
> experience with mod_perl and MySQL.
Business was so-so for me last month; everybody froze up. I feel
for you if you're consulting. So let me offer you some advice.
Take it for what it's worth ;-).
The formula is this: Figure out what you want to make - something
appropriate given your experience and ability, and the region in
which you typically operate. Let's start with a nice round figure
of $40,000 US dollars. Take the number of working hours in a year
and divide them in half (40 hours a week * 50 working weeks a year)
/ 2 = 1000 hours. (The idea is that you shouldn't be billing more
than half your working hours; if you are, then you aren't doing
other things you need to do in order to sustain a business.)
Now take the amount you want to make and divide it by the number
of hours you came up with above ($40,000 / 1,000). You get $40.
That's your target hourly rate. And despite what they high-flying
.com weanies were saying a year ago, that's going to be a nice
living for a young guy unless you're smack in the middle of a
high-cost area and can't bother to cook your own meals. Money
doesn't make you happy. (I lived like a church mouse as a grad
student with my wife and son, and really those were the best days
of my life!)
After you've been working for 5+ years and have a lot of refer-
ences and repeat business, you'll be able to charge considerably
more because you'll just be faster at what you do and capable of
writing better, more reliable systems and code. (I am a much,
much better Perl coder than I was seven years ago when I first
started using it. I rarely have any problems with those silly
tests some employers dump on you when you first negotiate a con-
tract; usually I end up correcting a few mistakes on the part of
the testers. And I'm a decent mentor to junior programmers. As
a result I charge a lot more. And I'm able to compete favorably
against big shops who hire programmers out for $120-300 per hour,
especially in major urban areas.)
About the billable hours thing: You really have to be careful
not to overbill. If you do some code that's usable by more than
one current client, don't charge them both. And make sure to
give them good reports on what you're doing. Clients like to
know what they're paying for. If you're not sure how long a job
will take, negotiate a stepped contract in which you spend, say,
a week working on a problem then report on your progress at the
end of the week so you and your employer can decide whether it's
worth going on to the next step.
There's an old joke about a consultant who dies at age 42 of a
heart attack. You have to be a Christian of some stripe to find
this funny, so my apologies to Muslims, Hindus, etc. Anyway,
he ascends to the pearly gates and, upon meeting Saint Peter,
accosts him saying, "Why was I taken so young? I was only
forty-two!" Saint Peter fumbles with his books a moment and
responds, "That's funny, but according to your billing records
you're seventy three."
--
Richard Goerwitz richard@Goerwitz.COM
tel: 401 438 8978
Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Posted by Medi Montaseri <me...@CyberShell.com>.
Well put...and one more item....when you invoice your customer, say
net 30, they intentially sit on it for 60 days, then cut and date the
check on the 61st day, then keep it in their desk for another two weeks,
so what out for cash flow and future value of money....
On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Michael Bacarella wrote:
> > I've had about two years of experience with perl, and one year of
> > experience with mod_perl and MySQL.
> >
> > I've been doing contract programming jobs for people and charged by the
> > hour. The rate I currently charge them ($40) was kind of chosen randomly.
> > I'd like to find out if this figure is too high/too low. Does anyone here
> > have any experiences to share?
>
> Contract programming is entirely different from salaried work.
>
> Assuming you live in the United States and are charging US dollars,
> Consider:
>
> Taxes (including an additional self-employment tax).
>
> Insurance (health, general liability, and possibly others)
>
> (Home) Office Expenses -- stuff you use to generate invoices, stuff you
> use to do your actual work if done in your home, rent, etc.
>
> Continued education -- consultants are expected to be experts.
>
> Greater risk. You generally will also never work as much as
> you'd like to.
>
> Your clients also get to wash their hands of you completely. Your
> expenses are a direct tax writeoff, rather than an additional
> accounting headache.
>
>
> After deducting all of the above, a $40/hr rate starts looking more like
> an $18/hr rate, and maybe even less. Consultants don't _just_ bill
> $100/hr because they're scam artists. :)
>
> You're charging effectively half of what a salaried perl/mysql hacker
> costs. Humility is a valuable business trait, but I'm positive you're
> worth more than you're charging.
>
> ---
> Michael Bacarella | 545 Eighth Ave #401
> | New York, NY 10018
> Systems Analysis & Support | michael@bacarella.com
> Managed Services | 212 946-1038
>
>
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medi Montaseri medi@CyberShell.com
Unix Distributed Systems Engineer HTTP://www.CyberShell.com
CyberShell Engineering
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Posted by Michael Bacarella <mi...@bacarella.com>.
> I've had about two years of experience with perl, and one year of
> experience with mod_perl and MySQL.
>
> I've been doing contract programming jobs for people and charged by the
> hour. The rate I currently charge them ($40) was kind of chosen randomly.
> I'd like to find out if this figure is too high/too low. Does anyone here
> have any experiences to share?
Contract programming is entirely different from salaried work.
Assuming you live in the United States and are charging US dollars,
Consider:
Taxes (including an additional self-employment tax).
Insurance (health, general liability, and possibly others)
(Home) Office Expenses -- stuff you use to generate invoices, stuff you
use to do your actual work if done in your home, rent, etc.
Continued education -- consultants are expected to be experts.
Greater risk. You generally will also never work as much as
you'd like to.
Your clients also get to wash their hands of you completely. Your
expenses are a direct tax writeoff, rather than an additional
accounting headache.
After deducting all of the above, a $40/hr rate starts looking more like
an $18/hr rate, and maybe even less. Consultants don't _just_ bill
$100/hr because they're scam artists. :)
You're charging effectively half of what a salaried perl/mysql hacker
costs. Humility is a valuable business trait, but I'm positive you're
worth more than you're charging.
---
Michael Bacarella | 545 Eighth Ave #401
| New York, NY 10018
Systems Analysis & Support | michael@bacarella.com
Managed Services | 212 946-1038
Re: What hourly rate to charge for programming?
Posted by Franck PORCHER <fp...@esoft.pf>.
Hello,
Many factors are to be taken into account to establish a base line.
As you say, experience is one. It determines the experience
you will provide your client with: your ability to solve
their problems, to meet their requirements, to react to constraints, be technical or
not, to innovate, etc...
Let's say that one developper, say A,
charges 100USD/hour, but accomplishes in an hour what requires 3 hours
for developper B. Add to that that solutions developped by A are truly innovative -
thus providing its clients with the ability to communicate about their high
tech profile - and always offer a smooth ride, compared to B solutions
that turn to be always about right. Let's say that B charges 35 USD an
hour.
What's going to happen ?
At first, clients not knowing A and B, being sollicited by B will go for
B, I guess. But as soon as they know about A, they may reconsider their
choice. Don't you think so ?
So I thing it all narrows down to finding if your ratio
Client-Experience-Satisfaction/cost (cost being f(rate)) is right.
Some Open Source programmer, aboard the Bayonne project, one proposed
to charge my company USD100 an hour. But this programmer had a high
tech profile that allowed him to quicky meet my requirements. So it was
just fine for us.
My company also charges about USD100 an hour, for high tech services.
Fellows doing the job all have Ph.D., deep field involvement and
understanding, and have been providing innovative developpement for more than 10 years.
Hope this will help you set up your baseline.
Franck
--------------------
Franck PORCHER, Ph.D.
Essential Software
fporcher@soft.pf
http://www.esoft.pf/
Tél: (689) 56 23 95