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Posted to dev@amaterasu.apache.org by Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> on 2018/10/02 07:27:35 UTC
Re: Project status
Any comments? Anyone?
Option 1: start a vote to retire the podling and move the project into your
own repository.
Option 2: keep things as-is for a few months and re-assess.
I'd say Option 2 requires a minimum of 3 people explicitly saying that they
want to continue trying and contributing.
On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 8:13 PM Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> Thanks Yaniv for your comments.
>
> - After the release of 0.2.0 the community became very quiet. I think
>> that at this point in the life of the project it is natural, as we all
>> doing this in our free time and the release was a major effort that
>> all of
>> us (after talking to members in the community) had to compensate for
>> in our
>> day jobs and families.
>> With that said, we shouldn't have gone so quiet. I think we can all
>> agree this is not acceptable for so long (if at all).
>>
>
> Not sure I agree: it is not natural for projects in the Incubator to be
> quiet. It does happen to projects that are getting obsolete/irrelevant,
> often after many years as TLPs. The release usually *increases* activity
> around the project as new users come, ask questions, start contributing,
> etc.
>
> On the other hand, totally fine for people to go quiet. The problem isn't
> around anybody going quiet, but the fact of nobody new arriving. Is there
> any evidence of any usage of the release? Anybody hitting any problem? Any
> lack of documentation? Any bugfixes? That's the core of the problem.
>
>
>> - It is very critical at this point to grow the community. Going back
>> to
>> my first point, as long as we are such a small community, efforts like
>> releasing a version will set us back, and the last release is a good
>> example for that danger.
>>
>
> Not sure I agree: releases usually pick up the activity, pick up new
> users, as new features now make the project more attractive. I don't think
> I've ever seen an argument where "releasing a version sets us back".
> Especially the *first* one.
>
> - Grow the community. BTW I think this is one reason we should consider
>> staying an Apache project, I think that with the release, we should
>> also
>> shift some focus to growing the community. This is an issue I see other
>> projects struggling with, this includes TLPs such as Apache Arrow (in a
>> recent thread on their dev list) and I don't think there is one answer
>> on
>> how to do it, and I spent some time on other lists to see if they have
>> solutions. I think we can do many things to fix this, and it's more of
>> a
>> trial and error process for most projects. Things we can (and should
>> start
>> doing immediately) includes doing more public presentations (and I
>> have to
>> give a shout-out @Nadav Har Tzvi <na...@gmail.com> that
>> presented
>> in two conferences recently), write blog posts, and we should all
>> invest
>> time in doing so. But one thing we also need to do is actively looking
>> for
>> more contributors. If anyone here has someone they think is a good fit,
>> let's try to get them onboard.
>>
>
> Outreach (blogs, talks, etc.) can help, but they help you *scale*. I think
> the project hasn't demonstrated early user fit -- and trying to scale
> before establishing that often doesn't yield results. For example, if you
> were to throw Amaterasu in front of 1000 people, how many would join the
> community? If only a few, it is probably a bad idea to do it. (I worry it
> is less than a few.)
>
> The problem is likely with the user fit, and can be solved only by user
> development -- most of which often happens before scaling, before building
> the community, and before joining the Incubator.
>
> It is really, really, really hard to build the community before early user
> fit.
>
> I think that the next few months are more about staying in the incubating
>> or not, it is do-or-die for Amaterasu. We need to fix the situation so I
>> wouldn't rush in this situation to consider retiring quite yet.
>>
>
> I'm totally fine with leaving things as-is for a few more months. But, I
> don't think it is realistic to expect changes to the degree necessary to
> graduate. As a result, I think you can use *your time* better.
>
> * * *
>
> I'm really sorry to be the messenger of bad news. I don't want to paint
> Amaterasu (or your work) in any bad way. I do want you and the project to
> be most successful as possible.
>
> Please note that I don't gain anything by driving this conversation. In
> fact, I lose a lot. Time is a precious resource of everyone -- and I'd like
> to make sure that the time *you* have for the project is spent in a way
> that is likely to yield results, not trying to achieve various ASF goals
> that may not achievable. (If this is not obvious now, I trust that over
> time direct feedback and tough conversations will be appreciated, instead
> of letting you waste time for something unrealistic -- which is what most
> people in my shoes would do.)
>
Re: Project status
Posted by guy peleg <wh...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
I really appreciate the conversation here.
I take full responsibility for not being committed after the release I was
under allot of pressure. Having said that I will be very upset seeing this
project retired. And I am fully committed to help it grow now. That why I
say +1 stay in the incubator and make it work.
Warm regards
Guy
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018, 18:35 Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net> wrote:
> Thanks Nadav for the update.
>
> Another focus should really be on the community. To be successful, the
> project needs a wide & diverse community.
>
> We can discuss about some actions to try to build this community, but
> right now, it's not good enough.
>
> Regards
> JB
>
> On 02/10/2018 10:26, Nadav Har Tzvi wrote:
> > Hey,
> > I was away for a vacation and had some pressure at my daily job before
> > that, now all of that has cleared up. Yaniv and I started integration
> right
> > before my vacation on the recent re-implementation of the Python SDK and
> > the PySpark SDK. We work on integration in the level of configuration
> files
> > prepared by the leader and pulled by the executor, these files are used
> to
> > configure storage, logging and the generation of the Amaterasu runtime.
> > We are really a few steps away from finishing it.
> > I expect that if we can put an effort into this in the upcoming weekend,
> we
> > can finally close this feature and move on to the next task.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Nadav
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 10:28, Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Any comments? Anyone?
> >>
> >> Option 1: start a vote to retire the podling and move the project into
> your
> >> own repository.
> >> Option 2: keep things as-is for a few months and re-assess.
> >>
> >> I'd say Option 2 requires a minimum of 3 people explicitly saying that
> they
> >> want to continue trying and contributing.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 8:13 PM Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks Yaniv for your comments.
> >>>
> >>> - After the release of 0.2.0 the community became very quiet. I
> think
> >>>> that at this point in the life of the project it is natural, as we
> >> all
> >>>> doing this in our free time and the release was a major effort that
> >>>> all of
> >>>> us (after talking to members in the community) had to compensate
> for
> >>>> in our
> >>>> day jobs and families.
> >>>> With that said, we shouldn't have gone so quiet. I think we can all
> >>>> agree this is not acceptable for so long (if at all).
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Not sure I agree: it is not natural for projects in the Incubator to be
> >>> quiet. It does happen to projects that are getting obsolete/irrelevant,
> >>> often after many years as TLPs. The release usually *increases*
> activity
> >>> around the project as new users come, ask questions, start
> contributing,
> >>> etc.
> >>>
> >>> On the other hand, totally fine for people to go quiet. The problem
> isn't
> >>> around anybody going quiet, but the fact of nobody new arriving. Is
> there
> >>> any evidence of any usage of the release? Anybody hitting any problem?
> >> Any
> >>> lack of documentation? Any bugfixes? That's the core of the problem.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> - It is very critical at this point to grow the community. Going
> back
> >>>> to
> >>>> my first point, as long as we are such a small community, efforts
> >> like
> >>>> releasing a version will set us back, and the last release is a
> good
> >>>> example for that danger.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Not sure I agree: releases usually pick up the activity, pick up new
> >>> users, as new features now make the project more attractive. I don't
> >> think
> >>> I've ever seen an argument where "releasing a version sets us back".
> >>> Especially the *first* one.
> >>>
> >>> - Grow the community. BTW I think this is one reason we should
> >> consider
> >>>> staying an Apache project, I think that with the release, we should
> >>>> also
> >>>> shift some focus to growing the community. This is an issue I see
> >> other
> >>>> projects struggling with, this includes TLPs such as Apache Arrow
> >> (in a
> >>>> recent thread on their dev list) and I don't think there is one
> >> answer
> >>>> on
> >>>> how to do it, and I spent some time on other lists to see if they
> >> have
> >>>> solutions. I think we can do many things to fix this, and it's more
> >> of
> >>>> a
> >>>> trial and error process for most projects. Things we can (and
> should
> >>>> start
> >>>> doing immediately) includes doing more public presentations (and I
> >>>> have to
> >>>> give a shout-out @Nadav Har Tzvi <na...@gmail.com> that
> >>>> presented
> >>>> in two conferences recently), write blog posts, and we should all
> >>>> invest
> >>>> time in doing so. But one thing we also need to do is actively
> >> looking
> >>>> for
> >>>> more contributors. If anyone here has someone they think is a good
> >> fit,
> >>>> let's try to get them onboard.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Outreach (blogs, talks, etc.) can help, but they help you *scale*. I
> >> think
> >>> the project hasn't demonstrated early user fit -- and trying to scale
> >>> before establishing that often doesn't yield results. For example, if
> you
> >>> were to throw Amaterasu in front of 1000 people, how many would join
> the
> >>> community? If only a few, it is probably a bad idea to do it. (I worry
> it
> >>> is less than a few.)
> >>>
> >>> The problem is likely with the user fit, and can be solved only by user
> >>> development -- most of which often happens before scaling, before
> >> building
> >>> the community, and before joining the Incubator.
> >>>
> >>> It is really, really, really hard to build the community before early
> >> user
> >>> fit.
> >>>
> >>> I think that the next few months are more about staying in the
> incubating
> >>>> or not, it is do-or-die for Amaterasu. We need to fix the situation
> so I
> >>>> wouldn't rush in this situation to consider retiring quite yet.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I'm totally fine with leaving things as-is for a few more months. But,
> I
> >>> don't think it is realistic to expect changes to the degree necessary
> to
> >>> graduate. As a result, I think you can use *your time* better.
> >>>
> >>> * * *
> >>>
> >>> I'm really sorry to be the messenger of bad news. I don't want to paint
> >>> Amaterasu (or your work) in any bad way. I do want you and the project
> to
> >>> be most successful as possible.
> >>>
> >>> Please note that I don't gain anything by driving this conversation. In
> >>> fact, I lose a lot. Time is a precious resource of everyone -- and I'd
> >> like
> >>> to make sure that the time *you* have for the project is spent in a way
> >>> that is likely to yield results, not trying to achieve various ASF
> goals
> >>> that may not achievable. (If this is not obvious now, I trust that over
> >>> time direct feedback and tough conversations will be appreciated,
> instead
> >>> of letting you waste time for something unrealistic -- which is what
> most
> >>> people in my shoes would do.)
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
> jbonofre@apache.org
> http://blog.nanthrax.net
> Talend - http://www.talend.com
>
Re: Project status
Posted by Yaniv Rodenski <ya...@shinto.io>.
Hi JB, Davor
First of all, again sorry for responding slowly, I'm traveling a lot lately
and don't always have connectivity.
I obviously am committed to continuing Amaterasu, and if there are known
ways we can grow the community please share those.
I also would like to report that I've been working with a potential user
lately and it looks very likely they are about to start a project with
Amaterasu with the intention to go to production with it.
Again, if both mentors feel strongly about retiring the project I
understand, but it is my personal view that this might be a bit premature,
and if we don't have to do it now I would like us to focus, as a small
community on how to grow rather than retiring.
In addition, we also need to report to submit this months podling report, I
would like to send a report for review a little bit later.
Regards,
Yaniv
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 6:35 PM Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net> wrote:
> Thanks Nadav for the update.
>
> Another focus should really be on the community. To be successful, the
> project needs a wide & diverse community.
>
> We can discuss about some actions to try to build this community, but
> right now, it's not good enough.
>
> Regards
> JB
>
> On 02/10/2018 10:26, Nadav Har Tzvi wrote:
> > Hey,
> > I was away for a vacation and had some pressure at my daily job before
> > that, now all of that has cleared up. Yaniv and I started integration
> right
> > before my vacation on the recent re-implementation of the Python SDK and
> > the PySpark SDK. We work on integration in the level of configuration
> files
> > prepared by the leader and pulled by the executor, these files are used
> to
> > configure storage, logging and the generation of the Amaterasu runtime.
> > We are really a few steps away from finishing it.
> > I expect that if we can put an effort into this in the upcoming weekend,
> we
> > can finally close this feature and move on to the next task.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Nadav
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 10:28, Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Any comments? Anyone?
> >>
> >> Option 1: start a vote to retire the podling and move the project into
> your
> >> own repository.
> >> Option 2: keep things as-is for a few months and re-assess.
> >>
> >> I'd say Option 2 requires a minimum of 3 people explicitly saying that
> they
> >> want to continue trying and contributing.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 8:13 PM Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks Yaniv for your comments.
> >>>
> >>> - After the release of 0.2.0 the community became very quiet. I
> think
> >>>> that at this point in the life of the project it is natural, as we
> >> all
> >>>> doing this in our free time and the release was a major effort that
> >>>> all of
> >>>> us (after talking to members in the community) had to compensate
> for
> >>>> in our
> >>>> day jobs and families.
> >>>> With that said, we shouldn't have gone so quiet. I think we can all
> >>>> agree this is not acceptable for so long (if at all).
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Not sure I agree: it is not natural for projects in the Incubator to be
> >>> quiet. It does happen to projects that are getting obsolete/irrelevant,
> >>> often after many years as TLPs. The release usually *increases*
> activity
> >>> around the project as new users come, ask questions, start
> contributing,
> >>> etc.
> >>>
> >>> On the other hand, totally fine for people to go quiet. The problem
> isn't
> >>> around anybody going quiet, but the fact of nobody new arriving. Is
> there
> >>> any evidence of any usage of the release? Anybody hitting any problem?
> >> Any
> >>> lack of documentation? Any bugfixes? That's the core of the problem.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> - It is very critical at this point to grow the community. Going
> back
> >>>> to
> >>>> my first point, as long as we are such a small community, efforts
> >> like
> >>>> releasing a version will set us back, and the last release is a
> good
> >>>> example for that danger.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Not sure I agree: releases usually pick up the activity, pick up new
> >>> users, as new features now make the project more attractive. I don't
> >> think
> >>> I've ever seen an argument where "releasing a version sets us back".
> >>> Especially the *first* one.
> >>>
> >>> - Grow the community. BTW I think this is one reason we should
> >> consider
> >>>> staying an Apache project, I think that with the release, we should
> >>>> also
> >>>> shift some focus to growing the community. This is an issue I see
> >> other
> >>>> projects struggling with, this includes TLPs such as Apache Arrow
> >> (in a
> >>>> recent thread on their dev list) and I don't think there is one
> >> answer
> >>>> on
> >>>> how to do it, and I spent some time on other lists to see if they
> >> have
> >>>> solutions. I think we can do many things to fix this, and it's more
> >> of
> >>>> a
> >>>> trial and error process for most projects. Things we can (and
> should
> >>>> start
> >>>> doing immediately) includes doing more public presentations (and I
> >>>> have to
> >>>> give a shout-out @Nadav Har Tzvi <na...@gmail.com> that
> >>>> presented
> >>>> in two conferences recently), write blog posts, and we should all
> >>>> invest
> >>>> time in doing so. But one thing we also need to do is actively
> >> looking
> >>>> for
> >>>> more contributors. If anyone here has someone they think is a good
> >> fit,
> >>>> let's try to get them onboard.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Outreach (blogs, talks, etc.) can help, but they help you *scale*. I
> >> think
> >>> the project hasn't demonstrated early user fit -- and trying to scale
> >>> before establishing that often doesn't yield results. For example, if
> you
> >>> were to throw Amaterasu in front of 1000 people, how many would join
> the
> >>> community? If only a few, it is probably a bad idea to do it. (I worry
> it
> >>> is less than a few.)
> >>>
> >>> The problem is likely with the user fit, and can be solved only by user
> >>> development -- most of which often happens before scaling, before
> >> building
> >>> the community, and before joining the Incubator.
> >>>
> >>> It is really, really, really hard to build the community before early
> >> user
> >>> fit.
> >>>
> >>> I think that the next few months are more about staying in the
> incubating
> >>>> or not, it is do-or-die for Amaterasu. We need to fix the situation
> so I
> >>>> wouldn't rush in this situation to consider retiring quite yet.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I'm totally fine with leaving things as-is for a few more months. But,
> I
> >>> don't think it is realistic to expect changes to the degree necessary
> to
> >>> graduate. As a result, I think you can use *your time* better.
> >>>
> >>> * * *
> >>>
> >>> I'm really sorry to be the messenger of bad news. I don't want to paint
> >>> Amaterasu (or your work) in any bad way. I do want you and the project
> to
> >>> be most successful as possible.
> >>>
> >>> Please note that I don't gain anything by driving this conversation. In
> >>> fact, I lose a lot. Time is a precious resource of everyone -- and I'd
> >> like
> >>> to make sure that the time *you* have for the project is spent in a way
> >>> that is likely to yield results, not trying to achieve various ASF
> goals
> >>> that may not achievable. (If this is not obvious now, I trust that over
> >>> time direct feedback and tough conversations will be appreciated,
> instead
> >>> of letting you waste time for something unrealistic -- which is what
> most
> >>> people in my shoes would do.)
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
> jbonofre@apache.org
> http://blog.nanthrax.net
> Talend - http://www.talend.com
>
--
Yaniv Rodenski
+61 477 778 405
yaniv@shinto.io
Re: Project status
Posted by Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net>.
Thanks Nadav for the update.
Another focus should really be on the community. To be successful, the
project needs a wide & diverse community.
We can discuss about some actions to try to build this community, but
right now, it's not good enough.
Regards
JB
On 02/10/2018 10:26, Nadav Har Tzvi wrote:
> Hey,
> I was away for a vacation and had some pressure at my daily job before
> that, now all of that has cleared up. Yaniv and I started integration right
> before my vacation on the recent re-implementation of the Python SDK and
> the PySpark SDK. We work on integration in the level of configuration files
> prepared by the leader and pulled by the executor, these files are used to
> configure storage, logging and the generation of the Amaterasu runtime.
> We are really a few steps away from finishing it.
> I expect that if we can put an effort into this in the upcoming weekend, we
> can finally close this feature and move on to the next task.
>
> Cheers,
> Nadav
>
>
>
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 10:28, Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Any comments? Anyone?
>>
>> Option 1: start a vote to retire the podling and move the project into your
>> own repository.
>> Option 2: keep things as-is for a few months and re-assess.
>>
>> I'd say Option 2 requires a minimum of 3 people explicitly saying that they
>> want to continue trying and contributing.
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 8:13 PM Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Yaniv for your comments.
>>>
>>> - After the release of 0.2.0 the community became very quiet. I think
>>>> that at this point in the life of the project it is natural, as we
>> all
>>>> doing this in our free time and the release was a major effort that
>>>> all of
>>>> us (after talking to members in the community) had to compensate for
>>>> in our
>>>> day jobs and families.
>>>> With that said, we shouldn't have gone so quiet. I think we can all
>>>> agree this is not acceptable for so long (if at all).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not sure I agree: it is not natural for projects in the Incubator to be
>>> quiet. It does happen to projects that are getting obsolete/irrelevant,
>>> often after many years as TLPs. The release usually *increases* activity
>>> around the project as new users come, ask questions, start contributing,
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, totally fine for people to go quiet. The problem isn't
>>> around anybody going quiet, but the fact of nobody new arriving. Is there
>>> any evidence of any usage of the release? Anybody hitting any problem?
>> Any
>>> lack of documentation? Any bugfixes? That's the core of the problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>> - It is very critical at this point to grow the community. Going back
>>>> to
>>>> my first point, as long as we are such a small community, efforts
>> like
>>>> releasing a version will set us back, and the last release is a good
>>>> example for that danger.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not sure I agree: releases usually pick up the activity, pick up new
>>> users, as new features now make the project more attractive. I don't
>> think
>>> I've ever seen an argument where "releasing a version sets us back".
>>> Especially the *first* one.
>>>
>>> - Grow the community. BTW I think this is one reason we should
>> consider
>>>> staying an Apache project, I think that with the release, we should
>>>> also
>>>> shift some focus to growing the community. This is an issue I see
>> other
>>>> projects struggling with, this includes TLPs such as Apache Arrow
>> (in a
>>>> recent thread on their dev list) and I don't think there is one
>> answer
>>>> on
>>>> how to do it, and I spent some time on other lists to see if they
>> have
>>>> solutions. I think we can do many things to fix this, and it's more
>> of
>>>> a
>>>> trial and error process for most projects. Things we can (and should
>>>> start
>>>> doing immediately) includes doing more public presentations (and I
>>>> have to
>>>> give a shout-out @Nadav Har Tzvi <na...@gmail.com> that
>>>> presented
>>>> in two conferences recently), write blog posts, and we should all
>>>> invest
>>>> time in doing so. But one thing we also need to do is actively
>> looking
>>>> for
>>>> more contributors. If anyone here has someone they think is a good
>> fit,
>>>> let's try to get them onboard.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Outreach (blogs, talks, etc.) can help, but they help you *scale*. I
>> think
>>> the project hasn't demonstrated early user fit -- and trying to scale
>>> before establishing that often doesn't yield results. For example, if you
>>> were to throw Amaterasu in front of 1000 people, how many would join the
>>> community? If only a few, it is probably a bad idea to do it. (I worry it
>>> is less than a few.)
>>>
>>> The problem is likely with the user fit, and can be solved only by user
>>> development -- most of which often happens before scaling, before
>> building
>>> the community, and before joining the Incubator.
>>>
>>> It is really, really, really hard to build the community before early
>> user
>>> fit.
>>>
>>> I think that the next few months are more about staying in the incubating
>>>> or not, it is do-or-die for Amaterasu. We need to fix the situation so I
>>>> wouldn't rush in this situation to consider retiring quite yet.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm totally fine with leaving things as-is for a few more months. But, I
>>> don't think it is realistic to expect changes to the degree necessary to
>>> graduate. As a result, I think you can use *your time* better.
>>>
>>> * * *
>>>
>>> I'm really sorry to be the messenger of bad news. I don't want to paint
>>> Amaterasu (or your work) in any bad way. I do want you and the project to
>>> be most successful as possible.
>>>
>>> Please note that I don't gain anything by driving this conversation. In
>>> fact, I lose a lot. Time is a precious resource of everyone -- and I'd
>> like
>>> to make sure that the time *you* have for the project is spent in a way
>>> that is likely to yield results, not trying to achieve various ASF goals
>>> that may not achievable. (If this is not obvious now, I trust that over
>>> time direct feedback and tough conversations will be appreciated, instead
>>> of letting you waste time for something unrealistic -- which is what most
>>> people in my shoes would do.)
>>>
>>
>
--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
jbonofre@apache.org
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com
Re: Project status
Posted by Nadav Har Tzvi <na...@gmail.com>.
Hey,
I was away for a vacation and had some pressure at my daily job before
that, now all of that has cleared up. Yaniv and I started integration right
before my vacation on the recent re-implementation of the Python SDK and
the PySpark SDK. We work on integration in the level of configuration files
prepared by the leader and pulled by the executor, these files are used to
configure storage, logging and the generation of the Amaterasu runtime.
We are really a few steps away from finishing it.
I expect that if we can put an effort into this in the upcoming weekend, we
can finally close this feature and move on to the next task.
Cheers,
Nadav
On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 10:28, Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> Any comments? Anyone?
>
> Option 1: start a vote to retire the podling and move the project into your
> own repository.
> Option 2: keep things as-is for a few months and re-assess.
>
> I'd say Option 2 requires a minimum of 3 people explicitly saying that they
> want to continue trying and contributing.
>
> On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 8:13 PM Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Thanks Yaniv for your comments.
> >
> > - After the release of 0.2.0 the community became very quiet. I think
> >> that at this point in the life of the project it is natural, as we
> all
> >> doing this in our free time and the release was a major effort that
> >> all of
> >> us (after talking to members in the community) had to compensate for
> >> in our
> >> day jobs and families.
> >> With that said, we shouldn't have gone so quiet. I think we can all
> >> agree this is not acceptable for so long (if at all).
> >>
> >
> > Not sure I agree: it is not natural for projects in the Incubator to be
> > quiet. It does happen to projects that are getting obsolete/irrelevant,
> > often after many years as TLPs. The release usually *increases* activity
> > around the project as new users come, ask questions, start contributing,
> > etc.
> >
> > On the other hand, totally fine for people to go quiet. The problem isn't
> > around anybody going quiet, but the fact of nobody new arriving. Is there
> > any evidence of any usage of the release? Anybody hitting any problem?
> Any
> > lack of documentation? Any bugfixes? That's the core of the problem.
> >
> >
> >> - It is very critical at this point to grow the community. Going back
> >> to
> >> my first point, as long as we are such a small community, efforts
> like
> >> releasing a version will set us back, and the last release is a good
> >> example for that danger.
> >>
> >
> > Not sure I agree: releases usually pick up the activity, pick up new
> > users, as new features now make the project more attractive. I don't
> think
> > I've ever seen an argument where "releasing a version sets us back".
> > Especially the *first* one.
> >
> > - Grow the community. BTW I think this is one reason we should
> consider
> >> staying an Apache project, I think that with the release, we should
> >> also
> >> shift some focus to growing the community. This is an issue I see
> other
> >> projects struggling with, this includes TLPs such as Apache Arrow
> (in a
> >> recent thread on their dev list) and I don't think there is one
> answer
> >> on
> >> how to do it, and I spent some time on other lists to see if they
> have
> >> solutions. I think we can do many things to fix this, and it's more
> of
> >> a
> >> trial and error process for most projects. Things we can (and should
> >> start
> >> doing immediately) includes doing more public presentations (and I
> >> have to
> >> give a shout-out @Nadav Har Tzvi <na...@gmail.com> that
> >> presented
> >> in two conferences recently), write blog posts, and we should all
> >> invest
> >> time in doing so. But one thing we also need to do is actively
> looking
> >> for
> >> more contributors. If anyone here has someone they think is a good
> fit,
> >> let's try to get them onboard.
> >>
> >
> > Outreach (blogs, talks, etc.) can help, but they help you *scale*. I
> think
> > the project hasn't demonstrated early user fit -- and trying to scale
> > before establishing that often doesn't yield results. For example, if you
> > were to throw Amaterasu in front of 1000 people, how many would join the
> > community? If only a few, it is probably a bad idea to do it. (I worry it
> > is less than a few.)
> >
> > The problem is likely with the user fit, and can be solved only by user
> > development -- most of which often happens before scaling, before
> building
> > the community, and before joining the Incubator.
> >
> > It is really, really, really hard to build the community before early
> user
> > fit.
> >
> > I think that the next few months are more about staying in the incubating
> >> or not, it is do-or-die for Amaterasu. We need to fix the situation so I
> >> wouldn't rush in this situation to consider retiring quite yet.
> >>
> >
> > I'm totally fine with leaving things as-is for a few more months. But, I
> > don't think it is realistic to expect changes to the degree necessary to
> > graduate. As a result, I think you can use *your time* better.
> >
> > * * *
> >
> > I'm really sorry to be the messenger of bad news. I don't want to paint
> > Amaterasu (or your work) in any bad way. I do want you and the project to
> > be most successful as possible.
> >
> > Please note that I don't gain anything by driving this conversation. In
> > fact, I lose a lot. Time is a precious resource of everyone -- and I'd
> like
> > to make sure that the time *you* have for the project is spent in a way
> > that is likely to yield results, not trying to achieve various ASF goals
> > that may not achievable. (If this is not obvious now, I trust that over
> > time direct feedback and tough conversations will be appreciated, instead
> > of letting you waste time for something unrealistic -- which is what most
> > people in my shoes would do.)
> >
>
Re: Project status
Posted by Arun Manivannan <ar...@arunma.com>.
Thanks, Davor.
Sorry about the last one to reply. I was between jobs and couldn't focus on
Amaterasu as well. Now that it's all settled, count me in for the
contributions too. Yaniv and I met a couple of weeks ago to discuss what I
could pick up.
Cheers
Arun
On Wed, Oct 3, 2018, 03:12 Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> Okay; it seems there 4 people interested and willing to work on the
> project. Option #2 it is.
>
> Some other comments:
>
> - Please don't apologize for any lack of contribution at any given time --
> this is a volunteer led organization and we totally understand and
> appreciate volunteer efforts as, when and if they are made.
>
> - There are many ways of growing the community; the best one is by
> increasing usage and adoption ("user fit"). Obviously, this is a hard
> problem, requiring lot of time, user development, and improving the
> technology. Alternatively, if there's no organic growth, companies often
> get paid developers regardless in hopes that those people can solve the
> problem with user fit and jump start the organic growth. There are no easy
> answers, perhaps similar to the book The Hard Thing About Hard Things. You
> have to work like crazy on it, there's no recipe.
>
> - You should discuss the goals so that there are no moving goalposts. Think
> about some metrics that you want to accomplish now, and then measure
> yourself against them in 3 months. All four of you should drive this
> discussion -- and JB and I should just be the observers. And, please, make
> sure you start those conversations again to check on the progress. (Please
> don't wait for me to do it.)
>
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:39 AM Kirupa Devarajan <ki...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I would like the project to remain in podling too. My workload is
> becoming
> > less and I will start contributing too.
> >
> > -Kirupa
> >
> > On Tue., 2 Oct. 2018, 6:26 pm Jean-Baptiste Onofré, <jb...@nanthrax.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I second Davor here. I think it makes sense to think about retiring the
> > > podling. I don't see large community around the project (both dev and
> > > user).
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > JB
> > >
> > > On 02/10/2018 09:27, Davor Bonaci wrote:
> > > > Any comments? Anyone?
> > > >
> > > > Option 1: start a vote to retire the podling and move the project
> into
> > > your
> > > > own repository.
> > > > Option 2: keep things as-is for a few months and re-assess.
> > > >
> > > > I'd say Option 2 requires a minimum of 3 people explicitly saying
> that
> > > they
> > > > want to continue trying and contributing.
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 8:13 PM Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Thanks Yaniv for your comments.
> > > >>
> > > >> - After the release of 0.2.0 the community became very quiet. I
> > think
> > > >>> that at this point in the life of the project it is natural, as
> we
> > > all
> > > >>> doing this in our free time and the release was a major effort
> > that
> > > >>> all of
> > > >>> us (after talking to members in the community) had to compensate
> > for
> > > >>> in our
> > > >>> day jobs and families.
> > > >>> With that said, we shouldn't have gone so quiet. I think we can
> > all
> > > >>> agree this is not acceptable for so long (if at all).
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> Not sure I agree: it is not natural for projects in the Incubator to
> > be
> > > >> quiet. It does happen to projects that are getting
> > obsolete/irrelevant,
> > > >> often after many years as TLPs. The release usually *increases*
> > activity
> > > >> around the project as new users come, ask questions, start
> > contributing,
> > > >> etc.
> > > >>
> > > >> On the other hand, totally fine for people to go quiet. The problem
> > > isn't
> > > >> around anybody going quiet, but the fact of nobody new arriving. Is
> > > there
> > > >> any evidence of any usage of the release? Anybody hitting any
> problem?
> > > Any
> > > >> lack of documentation? Any bugfixes? That's the core of the problem.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> - It is very critical at this point to grow the community. Going
> > > back
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> my first point, as long as we are such a small community,
> efforts
> > > like
> > > >>> releasing a version will set us back, and the last release is a
> > good
> > > >>> example for that danger.
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> Not sure I agree: releases usually pick up the activity, pick up new
> > > >> users, as new features now make the project more attractive. I don't
> > > think
> > > >> I've ever seen an argument where "releasing a version sets us back".
> > > >> Especially the *first* one.
> > > >>
> > > >> - Grow the community. BTW I think this is one reason we should
> > > consider
> > > >>> staying an Apache project, I think that with the release, we
> > should
> > > >>> also
> > > >>> shift some focus to growing the community. This is an issue I
> see
> > > other
> > > >>> projects struggling with, this includes TLPs such as Apache
> Arrow
> > > (in a
> > > >>> recent thread on their dev list) and I don't think there is one
> > > answer
> > > >>> on
> > > >>> how to do it, and I spent some time on other lists to see if
> they
> > > have
> > > >>> solutions. I think we can do many things to fix this, and it's
> > more
> > > of
> > > >>> a
> > > >>> trial and error process for most projects. Things we can (and
> > should
> > > >>> start
> > > >>> doing immediately) includes doing more public presentations
> (and I
> > > >>> have to
> > > >>> give a shout-out @Nadav Har Tzvi <na...@gmail.com> that
> > > >>> presented
> > > >>> in two conferences recently), write blog posts, and we should
> all
> > > >>> invest
> > > >>> time in doing so. But one thing we also need to do is actively
> > > looking
> > > >>> for
> > > >>> more contributors. If anyone here has someone they think is a
> good
> > > fit,
> > > >>> let's try to get them onboard.
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> Outreach (blogs, talks, etc.) can help, but they help you *scale*. I
> > > think
> > > >> the project hasn't demonstrated early user fit -- and trying to
> scale
> > > >> before establishing that often doesn't yield results. For example,
> if
> > > you
> > > >> were to throw Amaterasu in front of 1000 people, how many would join
> > the
> > > >> community? If only a few, it is probably a bad idea to do it. (I
> worry
> > > it
> > > >> is less than a few.)
> > > >>
> > > >> The problem is likely with the user fit, and can be solved only by
> > user
> > > >> development -- most of which often happens before scaling, before
> > > building
> > > >> the community, and before joining the Incubator.
> > > >>
> > > >> It is really, really, really hard to build the community before
> early
> > > user
> > > >> fit.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think that the next few months are more about staying in the
> > > incubating
> > > >>> or not, it is do-or-die for Amaterasu. We need to fix the situation
> > so
> > > I
> > > >>> wouldn't rush in this situation to consider retiring quite yet.
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm totally fine with leaving things as-is for a few more months.
> > But, I
> > > >> don't think it is realistic to expect changes to the degree
> necessary
> > to
> > > >> graduate. As a result, I think you can use *your time* better.
> > > >>
> > > >> * * *
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm really sorry to be the messenger of bad news. I don't want to
> > paint
> > > >> Amaterasu (or your work) in any bad way. I do want you and the
> project
> > > to
> > > >> be most successful as possible.
> > > >>
> > > >> Please note that I don't gain anything by driving this conversation.
> > In
> > > >> fact, I lose a lot. Time is a precious resource of everyone -- and
> I'd
> > > like
> > > >> to make sure that the time *you* have for the project is spent in a
> > way
> > > >> that is likely to yield results, not trying to achieve various ASF
> > goals
> > > >> that may not achievable. (If this is not obvious now, I trust that
> > over
> > > >> time direct feedback and tough conversations will be appreciated,
> > > instead
> > > >> of letting you waste time for something unrealistic -- which is what
> > > most
> > > >> people in my shoes would do.)
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jean-Baptiste Onofré
> > > jbonofre@apache.org
> > > http://blog.nanthrax.net
> > > Talend - http://www.talend.com
> > >
> >
>
Re: Project status
Posted by Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org>.
Okay; it seems there 4 people interested and willing to work on the
project. Option #2 it is.
Some other comments:
- Please don't apologize for any lack of contribution at any given time --
this is a volunteer led organization and we totally understand and
appreciate volunteer efforts as, when and if they are made.
- There are many ways of growing the community; the best one is by
increasing usage and adoption ("user fit"). Obviously, this is a hard
problem, requiring lot of time, user development, and improving the
technology. Alternatively, if there's no organic growth, companies often
get paid developers regardless in hopes that those people can solve the
problem with user fit and jump start the organic growth. There are no easy
answers, perhaps similar to the book The Hard Thing About Hard Things. You
have to work like crazy on it, there's no recipe.
- You should discuss the goals so that there are no moving goalposts. Think
about some metrics that you want to accomplish now, and then measure
yourself against them in 3 months. All four of you should drive this
discussion -- and JB and I should just be the observers. And, please, make
sure you start those conversations again to check on the progress. (Please
don't wait for me to do it.)
On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:39 AM Kirupa Devarajan <ki...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I would like the project to remain in podling too. My workload is becoming
> less and I will start contributing too.
>
> -Kirupa
>
> On Tue., 2 Oct. 2018, 6:26 pm Jean-Baptiste Onofré, <jb...@nanthrax.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I second Davor here. I think it makes sense to think about retiring the
> > podling. I don't see large community around the project (both dev and
> > user).
> >
> > Regards
> > JB
> >
> > On 02/10/2018 09:27, Davor Bonaci wrote:
> > > Any comments? Anyone?
> > >
> > > Option 1: start a vote to retire the podling and move the project into
> > your
> > > own repository.
> > > Option 2: keep things as-is for a few months and re-assess.
> > >
> > > I'd say Option 2 requires a minimum of 3 people explicitly saying that
> > they
> > > want to continue trying and contributing.
> > >
> > > On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 8:13 PM Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Thanks Yaniv for your comments.
> > >>
> > >> - After the release of 0.2.0 the community became very quiet. I
> think
> > >>> that at this point in the life of the project it is natural, as we
> > all
> > >>> doing this in our free time and the release was a major effort
> that
> > >>> all of
> > >>> us (after talking to members in the community) had to compensate
> for
> > >>> in our
> > >>> day jobs and families.
> > >>> With that said, we shouldn't have gone so quiet. I think we can
> all
> > >>> agree this is not acceptable for so long (if at all).
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Not sure I agree: it is not natural for projects in the Incubator to
> be
> > >> quiet. It does happen to projects that are getting
> obsolete/irrelevant,
> > >> often after many years as TLPs. The release usually *increases*
> activity
> > >> around the project as new users come, ask questions, start
> contributing,
> > >> etc.
> > >>
> > >> On the other hand, totally fine for people to go quiet. The problem
> > isn't
> > >> around anybody going quiet, but the fact of nobody new arriving. Is
> > there
> > >> any evidence of any usage of the release? Anybody hitting any problem?
> > Any
> > >> lack of documentation? Any bugfixes? That's the core of the problem.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> - It is very critical at this point to grow the community. Going
> > back
> > >>> to
> > >>> my first point, as long as we are such a small community, efforts
> > like
> > >>> releasing a version will set us back, and the last release is a
> good
> > >>> example for that danger.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Not sure I agree: releases usually pick up the activity, pick up new
> > >> users, as new features now make the project more attractive. I don't
> > think
> > >> I've ever seen an argument where "releasing a version sets us back".
> > >> Especially the *first* one.
> > >>
> > >> - Grow the community. BTW I think this is one reason we should
> > consider
> > >>> staying an Apache project, I think that with the release, we
> should
> > >>> also
> > >>> shift some focus to growing the community. This is an issue I see
> > other
> > >>> projects struggling with, this includes TLPs such as Apache Arrow
> > (in a
> > >>> recent thread on their dev list) and I don't think there is one
> > answer
> > >>> on
> > >>> how to do it, and I spent some time on other lists to see if they
> > have
> > >>> solutions. I think we can do many things to fix this, and it's
> more
> > of
> > >>> a
> > >>> trial and error process for most projects. Things we can (and
> should
> > >>> start
> > >>> doing immediately) includes doing more public presentations (and I
> > >>> have to
> > >>> give a shout-out @Nadav Har Tzvi <na...@gmail.com> that
> > >>> presented
> > >>> in two conferences recently), write blog posts, and we should all
> > >>> invest
> > >>> time in doing so. But one thing we also need to do is actively
> > looking
> > >>> for
> > >>> more contributors. If anyone here has someone they think is a good
> > fit,
> > >>> let's try to get them onboard.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Outreach (blogs, talks, etc.) can help, but they help you *scale*. I
> > think
> > >> the project hasn't demonstrated early user fit -- and trying to scale
> > >> before establishing that often doesn't yield results. For example, if
> > you
> > >> were to throw Amaterasu in front of 1000 people, how many would join
> the
> > >> community? If only a few, it is probably a bad idea to do it. (I worry
> > it
> > >> is less than a few.)
> > >>
> > >> The problem is likely with the user fit, and can be solved only by
> user
> > >> development -- most of which often happens before scaling, before
> > building
> > >> the community, and before joining the Incubator.
> > >>
> > >> It is really, really, really hard to build the community before early
> > user
> > >> fit.
> > >>
> > >> I think that the next few months are more about staying in the
> > incubating
> > >>> or not, it is do-or-die for Amaterasu. We need to fix the situation
> so
> > I
> > >>> wouldn't rush in this situation to consider retiring quite yet.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> I'm totally fine with leaving things as-is for a few more months.
> But, I
> > >> don't think it is realistic to expect changes to the degree necessary
> to
> > >> graduate. As a result, I think you can use *your time* better.
> > >>
> > >> * * *
> > >>
> > >> I'm really sorry to be the messenger of bad news. I don't want to
> paint
> > >> Amaterasu (or your work) in any bad way. I do want you and the project
> > to
> > >> be most successful as possible.
> > >>
> > >> Please note that I don't gain anything by driving this conversation.
> In
> > >> fact, I lose a lot. Time is a precious resource of everyone -- and I'd
> > like
> > >> to make sure that the time *you* have for the project is spent in a
> way
> > >> that is likely to yield results, not trying to achieve various ASF
> goals
> > >> that may not achievable. (If this is not obvious now, I trust that
> over
> > >> time direct feedback and tough conversations will be appreciated,
> > instead
> > >> of letting you waste time for something unrealistic -- which is what
> > most
> > >> people in my shoes would do.)
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Jean-Baptiste Onofré
> > jbonofre@apache.org
> > http://blog.nanthrax.net
> > Talend - http://www.talend.com
> >
>
Re: Project status
Posted by Kirupa Devarajan <ki...@gmail.com>.
Hi All,
I would like the project to remain in podling too. My workload is becoming
less and I will start contributing too.
-Kirupa
On Tue., 2 Oct. 2018, 6:26 pm Jean-Baptiste Onofré, <jb...@nanthrax.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I second Davor here. I think it makes sense to think about retiring the
> podling. I don't see large community around the project (both dev and
> user).
>
> Regards
> JB
>
> On 02/10/2018 09:27, Davor Bonaci wrote:
> > Any comments? Anyone?
> >
> > Option 1: start a vote to retire the podling and move the project into
> your
> > own repository.
> > Option 2: keep things as-is for a few months and re-assess.
> >
> > I'd say Option 2 requires a minimum of 3 people explicitly saying that
> they
> > want to continue trying and contributing.
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 8:13 PM Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks Yaniv for your comments.
> >>
> >> - After the release of 0.2.0 the community became very quiet. I think
> >>> that at this point in the life of the project it is natural, as we
> all
> >>> doing this in our free time and the release was a major effort that
> >>> all of
> >>> us (after talking to members in the community) had to compensate for
> >>> in our
> >>> day jobs and families.
> >>> With that said, we shouldn't have gone so quiet. I think we can all
> >>> agree this is not acceptable for so long (if at all).
> >>>
> >>
> >> Not sure I agree: it is not natural for projects in the Incubator to be
> >> quiet. It does happen to projects that are getting obsolete/irrelevant,
> >> often after many years as TLPs. The release usually *increases* activity
> >> around the project as new users come, ask questions, start contributing,
> >> etc.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, totally fine for people to go quiet. The problem
> isn't
> >> around anybody going quiet, but the fact of nobody new arriving. Is
> there
> >> any evidence of any usage of the release? Anybody hitting any problem?
> Any
> >> lack of documentation? Any bugfixes? That's the core of the problem.
> >>
> >>
> >>> - It is very critical at this point to grow the community. Going
> back
> >>> to
> >>> my first point, as long as we are such a small community, efforts
> like
> >>> releasing a version will set us back, and the last release is a good
> >>> example for that danger.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Not sure I agree: releases usually pick up the activity, pick up new
> >> users, as new features now make the project more attractive. I don't
> think
> >> I've ever seen an argument where "releasing a version sets us back".
> >> Especially the *first* one.
> >>
> >> - Grow the community. BTW I think this is one reason we should
> consider
> >>> staying an Apache project, I think that with the release, we should
> >>> also
> >>> shift some focus to growing the community. This is an issue I see
> other
> >>> projects struggling with, this includes TLPs such as Apache Arrow
> (in a
> >>> recent thread on their dev list) and I don't think there is one
> answer
> >>> on
> >>> how to do it, and I spent some time on other lists to see if they
> have
> >>> solutions. I think we can do many things to fix this, and it's more
> of
> >>> a
> >>> trial and error process for most projects. Things we can (and should
> >>> start
> >>> doing immediately) includes doing more public presentations (and I
> >>> have to
> >>> give a shout-out @Nadav Har Tzvi <na...@gmail.com> that
> >>> presented
> >>> in two conferences recently), write blog posts, and we should all
> >>> invest
> >>> time in doing so. But one thing we also need to do is actively
> looking
> >>> for
> >>> more contributors. If anyone here has someone they think is a good
> fit,
> >>> let's try to get them onboard.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Outreach (blogs, talks, etc.) can help, but they help you *scale*. I
> think
> >> the project hasn't demonstrated early user fit -- and trying to scale
> >> before establishing that often doesn't yield results. For example, if
> you
> >> were to throw Amaterasu in front of 1000 people, how many would join the
> >> community? If only a few, it is probably a bad idea to do it. (I worry
> it
> >> is less than a few.)
> >>
> >> The problem is likely with the user fit, and can be solved only by user
> >> development -- most of which often happens before scaling, before
> building
> >> the community, and before joining the Incubator.
> >>
> >> It is really, really, really hard to build the community before early
> user
> >> fit.
> >>
> >> I think that the next few months are more about staying in the
> incubating
> >>> or not, it is do-or-die for Amaterasu. We need to fix the situation so
> I
> >>> wouldn't rush in this situation to consider retiring quite yet.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I'm totally fine with leaving things as-is for a few more months. But, I
> >> don't think it is realistic to expect changes to the degree necessary to
> >> graduate. As a result, I think you can use *your time* better.
> >>
> >> * * *
> >>
> >> I'm really sorry to be the messenger of bad news. I don't want to paint
> >> Amaterasu (or your work) in any bad way. I do want you and the project
> to
> >> be most successful as possible.
> >>
> >> Please note that I don't gain anything by driving this conversation. In
> >> fact, I lose a lot. Time is a precious resource of everyone -- and I'd
> like
> >> to make sure that the time *you* have for the project is spent in a way
> >> that is likely to yield results, not trying to achieve various ASF goals
> >> that may not achievable. (If this is not obvious now, I trust that over
> >> time direct feedback and tough conversations will be appreciated,
> instead
> >> of letting you waste time for something unrealistic -- which is what
> most
> >> people in my shoes would do.)
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
> jbonofre@apache.org
> http://blog.nanthrax.net
> Talend - http://www.talend.com
>
Re: Project status
Posted by Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net>.
Hi,
I second Davor here. I think it makes sense to think about retiring the
podling. I don't see large community around the project (both dev and user).
Regards
JB
On 02/10/2018 09:27, Davor Bonaci wrote:
> Any comments? Anyone?
>
> Option 1: start a vote to retire the podling and move the project into your
> own repository.
> Option 2: keep things as-is for a few months and re-assess.
>
> I'd say Option 2 requires a minimum of 3 people explicitly saying that they
> want to continue trying and contributing.
>
> On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 8:13 PM Davor Bonaci <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Yaniv for your comments.
>>
>> - After the release of 0.2.0 the community became very quiet. I think
>>> that at this point in the life of the project it is natural, as we all
>>> doing this in our free time and the release was a major effort that
>>> all of
>>> us (after talking to members in the community) had to compensate for
>>> in our
>>> day jobs and families.
>>> With that said, we shouldn't have gone so quiet. I think we can all
>>> agree this is not acceptable for so long (if at all).
>>>
>>
>> Not sure I agree: it is not natural for projects in the Incubator to be
>> quiet. It does happen to projects that are getting obsolete/irrelevant,
>> often after many years as TLPs. The release usually *increases* activity
>> around the project as new users come, ask questions, start contributing,
>> etc.
>>
>> On the other hand, totally fine for people to go quiet. The problem isn't
>> around anybody going quiet, but the fact of nobody new arriving. Is there
>> any evidence of any usage of the release? Anybody hitting any problem? Any
>> lack of documentation? Any bugfixes? That's the core of the problem.
>>
>>
>>> - It is very critical at this point to grow the community. Going back
>>> to
>>> my first point, as long as we are such a small community, efforts like
>>> releasing a version will set us back, and the last release is a good
>>> example for that danger.
>>>
>>
>> Not sure I agree: releases usually pick up the activity, pick up new
>> users, as new features now make the project more attractive. I don't think
>> I've ever seen an argument where "releasing a version sets us back".
>> Especially the *first* one.
>>
>> - Grow the community. BTW I think this is one reason we should consider
>>> staying an Apache project, I think that with the release, we should
>>> also
>>> shift some focus to growing the community. This is an issue I see other
>>> projects struggling with, this includes TLPs such as Apache Arrow (in a
>>> recent thread on their dev list) and I don't think there is one answer
>>> on
>>> how to do it, and I spent some time on other lists to see if they have
>>> solutions. I think we can do many things to fix this, and it's more of
>>> a
>>> trial and error process for most projects. Things we can (and should
>>> start
>>> doing immediately) includes doing more public presentations (and I
>>> have to
>>> give a shout-out @Nadav Har Tzvi <na...@gmail.com> that
>>> presented
>>> in two conferences recently), write blog posts, and we should all
>>> invest
>>> time in doing so. But one thing we also need to do is actively looking
>>> for
>>> more contributors. If anyone here has someone they think is a good fit,
>>> let's try to get them onboard.
>>>
>>
>> Outreach (blogs, talks, etc.) can help, but they help you *scale*. I think
>> the project hasn't demonstrated early user fit -- and trying to scale
>> before establishing that often doesn't yield results. For example, if you
>> were to throw Amaterasu in front of 1000 people, how many would join the
>> community? If only a few, it is probably a bad idea to do it. (I worry it
>> is less than a few.)
>>
>> The problem is likely with the user fit, and can be solved only by user
>> development -- most of which often happens before scaling, before building
>> the community, and before joining the Incubator.
>>
>> It is really, really, really hard to build the community before early user
>> fit.
>>
>> I think that the next few months are more about staying in the incubating
>>> or not, it is do-or-die for Amaterasu. We need to fix the situation so I
>>> wouldn't rush in this situation to consider retiring quite yet.
>>>
>>
>> I'm totally fine with leaving things as-is for a few more months. But, I
>> don't think it is realistic to expect changes to the degree necessary to
>> graduate. As a result, I think you can use *your time* better.
>>
>> * * *
>>
>> I'm really sorry to be the messenger of bad news. I don't want to paint
>> Amaterasu (or your work) in any bad way. I do want you and the project to
>> be most successful as possible.
>>
>> Please note that I don't gain anything by driving this conversation. In
>> fact, I lose a lot. Time is a precious resource of everyone -- and I'd like
>> to make sure that the time *you* have for the project is spent in a way
>> that is likely to yield results, not trying to achieve various ASF goals
>> that may not achievable. (If this is not obvious now, I trust that over
>> time direct feedback and tough conversations will be appreciated, instead
>> of letting you waste time for something unrealistic -- which is what most
>> people in my shoes would do.)
>>
>
--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
jbonofre@apache.org
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com