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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> on 2011/11/16 21:36:08 UTC
Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>
> We are, however, recognizing that we've had growth issues of our own. As
> David Crossley pointed out, he made mistakes last month related to the
> Reporting Schedule, and we continue to have issues. The Incubator is almost
> as big as the rest of the ASF combined. David posted a plot chart
> reflecting our growth: http://incubator.apache.org/history/
Excellent plot chart. As with most plot charts, the end result is a
Rorschach test. I'll tell you what I (personally) see in this chart:
a failure to perform garbage collection. My personal perspective is
that incubation shouldn't generally take more than a year. That
doesn't mean that there won't be exceptions, and in a few rare cases,
some that go well beyond that arbitrary time limit, but the point is
that those should be the exception rather than the rule.
Looking at the current list of projects, we have many that exceed that
number. Far exceed that number. In fact the median age is 416 days
and the mean age is 536.
People here may disagree with my arbitrary date, and that's OK. But
my feeling is that there needs to be an expectation that a podling
produces AT THE VERY MINIMUM a credible plan that they are executing
on which will lead to graduation at some point. If they fail to
produce such a plan, or fail to execute on that plan (within reason),
they should be asked to explain themselves. If they fail to do so,
the incubation at the ASF should cease.
At the moment, the expectation is that the mentors be the ones to take
up this task. For whatever reason, that isn't reliably being done.
This causes the board to complain periodically. I am of the belief
that the first level of culling needs to be performed at the Incubator
level. If we need to appoint a set of grim reapers, lets do so, and I
will volunteer to be a part of such an effort.
Meanwhile, I will personally focus on JSPWiki. If others wish to join
me, here is a a current list of projects that have been incubating
more than a year:
2007-09-17 JSPWiki
2008-01-06 RAT
2008-05-20 Hama
2008-07-08 Empire-db
2008-08-19 PhotArk
2008-09-02 Etch
2008-09-04 Tashi
2008-09-29 Olio
2008-10-06 VCL
2008-10-09 Droids
2008-11-06 Kato
2008-11-19 Stonehenge
2009-04-24 Ace
2009-05-27 Wink
2009-07-06 VXQuery
2009-07-17 Wookie
2009-11-05 HISE
2009-11-27 Clerezza
2010-01-10 Manifold Connector Framework (ManifoldCF)
2010-02-21 SIS
2010-03-01 Bean Validation
2010-05-09 Amber
2010-05-19 Deltacloud
2010-05-21 Zeta Components
2010-06-24 Nuvem
2010-07-14 Chukwa
2010-07-22 Lucy
2010-08-13 NPanday
2010-09-07 Isis
2010-09-26 Gora
2010-10-03 Kitty
2010-11-02 Celix
2010-11-15 Stanbol
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Christian Grobmeier
> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Deltacloud has graduated and can be put off from your list.
>> Rat is discussing graduation and should be moved from the list too.
>
> The master list from which I drew the data can be found here:
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/
>
> The script I used is attached to this message
The script is fine.
Deltacloud has not started graduation yet (just the vote is done).
And I follow the rat-dev list, therefore I can say there is efford in
graduation direction
Cheers
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:27 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can see two problems with this view to begin with. One is IP
> management. The more people participate in a project and the longer
> they do so, the messier it becomes to track provenance and get ICLAs
> from all of the contributors. One almost wishes that the ASF could
> accept ICLAs and code grants for code that is in fact living somewhere
> else. I'm sure someone will tell me why that idea is nuts.
Well, if the code is living somewhere else, that means the code in ASF
would be taking up space for possibly no good reason, as people might
more habitually go to where the code is living.
On the other hand, the ASF could theoretically act as a last line of
defense against system failure, community dissolution,
sociopolitically-motivated bogus forking, etc., in that if all else
fails people can go to Apache to get a stable release of something.
I'm sorry...was that a rhetorical question?
Don
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
Since this thread has come back to life, I read through it and have
one comment to add:
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 20:27, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>...
> I can see two problems with this view to begin with. One is IP
> management. The more people participate in a project and the longer
> they do so, the messier it becomes to track provenance and get ICLAs
> from all of the contributors. One almost wishes that the ASF could
> accept ICLAs and code grants for code that is in fact living somewhere
> else. I'm sure someone will tell me why that idea is nuts.
Actually, the ASF doesn't vette *why* an ICLA is being filed. It
simply takes it and records it.
The serf project[*] requires all committers to sign an ICLA with the
ASF before receiving access. This way, should we ever want to move the
project to the ASF, we have all commits already covered under an ICLA.
While the project would still hit the Incubator, its IP clearance
would be done on Day One.
Cheers,
-g
[*] http://code.google.com/p/serf/ ... serf/ASF history at
http://s.apache.org/jz
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
While I agree that it's important to confront the current inventory, I
think that the situation at hand is as much a matter of what goes into
the incubator as what comes out.
In my limited experience, size and growth are a big barrier to
graduation. If a project is chugging along exhibiting good Apache
process, but not quite achieving the necessary size, it poses a
dilemma. No one wants to exile them to the outer darkness, and no one
wants to graduate them, either.
Perhaps one implication of this is that the bar for entry with respect
to community size and diversity should be higher. In the modern world
of (ahem) github, no one needs Apache infrastructure to run an open
source project. A small group of people have any number of choices for
free and open hosting. They can come to the incubator when and if they
get are big enough to have a strong likelihood of success.
I can see two problems with this view to begin with. One is IP
management. The more people participate in a project and the longer
they do so, the messier it becomes to track provenance and get ICLAs
from all of the contributors. One almost wishes that the ASF could
accept ICLAs and code grants for code that is in fact living somewhere
else. I'm sure someone will tell me why that idea is nuts.
The second is that growth is not cured by a minimum size. We want to
see a podling do a good job of accepting new contributors. Even if a
group of 27 people shows up on a proposal and commit their brains out,
a year later there may still be 27 of them. I think that a solution
here might be for such projects to be graduated but to have a
requirement of a PMC member, or even PMC chair, who is an iPMC member
and who thus can provide an extra level of detailed supervision.
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 1:40 AM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi...
>>
>> The idea sounds good in general more specifically that should be clear
>> and documented on the incubator site for future incubating projects. But,
>> IMHO, we should categorize projects mentioned in that list from very old to
>> recent ones and each group of mentors get in touch with their mentored
>> projects and get with some feedback about such plan, so we can be more fair
>> and give people a chance either to do some progress, more specifically for
>> recent incubated projects and even for the older projects to revive if that
>> is possible.
>>
>> Thoughts ?
>
> Nobody is proposing immediate expulsion of any PPMC based solely on a metric.
>
> On the other hand, it should not be a surprise to mentors that they
> are responsible for[1] "assessment of the Podling status with respect
> to continuation/exit strategy". Reports for PPMCs that are older than
> a year should be expected to contain this information. Repeated
> failure to include such information and/or demonstrate forward
> progress towards meeting these objectives should cause the Incubator
> (not the Board!) to take action.
I think this is more about pushing ourselves, and less about pushing podlings
The Incubator now has a process which works okay for many podlings.
The challenge now is to focus more effort on those cases where the
process isn't working. Metrics are useful in discovering and
highlighting sub-populations.
Robert
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
<no...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi...
>
> The idea sounds good in general more specifically that should be clear
> and documented on the incubator site for future incubating projects. But,
> IMHO, we should categorize projects mentioned in that list from very old to
> recent ones and each group of mentors get in touch with their mentored
> projects and get with some feedback about such plan, so we can be more fair
> and give people a chance either to do some progress, more specifically for
> recent incubated projects and even for the older projects to revive if that
> is possible.
>
> Thoughts ?
Nobody is proposing immediate expulsion of any PPMC based solely on a metric.
On the other hand, it should not be a surprise to mentors that they
are responsible for[1] "assessment of the Podling status with respect
to continuation/exit strategy". Reports for PPMCs that are older than
a year should be expected to contain this information. Repeated
failure to include such information and/or demonstrate forward
progress towards meeting these objectives should cause the Incubator
(not the Board!) to take action.
- Sam Ruby
[1] http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Mentor
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
Hi...
The idea sounds good in general more specifically that should be clear
and documented on the incubator site for future incubating projects. But,
IMHO, we should categorize projects mentioned in that list from very old to
recent ones and each group of mentors get in touch with their mentored
projects and get with some feedback about such plan, so we can be more fair
and give people a chance either to do some progress, more specifically for
recent incubated projects and even for the older projects to revive if that
is possible.
Thoughts ?
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:12 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din <
nour.mohammad@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 12:20 AM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I have been working to get Empire-DB to graduate, and I expect to have
>> a vote in front of general@ quite soon.
>>
>
> Same with Bean Validation the vote on the dev list is already done and
> next steps will be taken soon. I take the blame for the delay.
>
>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:17 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 16 November 2011 20:57, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Christian Grobmeier
>> >> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Deltacloud has graduated and can be put off from your list.
>> >>> Rat is discussing graduation and should be moved from the list too.
>> >>
>> >> The master list from which I drew the data can be found here:
>> >>
>> >> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/
>> >
>> > By the way, that page is now generated from an XML file which may be
>> > easier to parse:
>> >
>> > http://incubator.apache.org/podlings.xml
>> > with DTD
>> > http://incubator.apache.org/podlings.dtd
>> >
>> > The original versions are also in SVN at :
>> >
>> > https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk/site-author
>> >
>> >> The script I used is attached to this message
>> >>
>> >> - Sam Ruby
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >>
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks
> - Mohammad Nour
> ----
> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
> - Albert Einstein
>
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 12:20 AM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I have been working to get Empire-DB to graduate, and I expect to have
> a vote in front of general@ quite soon.
>
Same with Bean Validation the vote on the dev list is already done and next
steps will be taken soon. I take the blame for the delay.
>
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:17 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 16 November 2011 20:57, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Christian Grobmeier
> >> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Deltacloud has graduated and can be put off from your list.
> >>> Rat is discussing graduation and should be moved from the list too.
> >>
> >> The master list from which I drew the data can be found here:
> >>
> >> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/
> >
> > By the way, that page is now generated from an XML file which may be
> > easier to parse:
> >
> > http://incubator.apache.org/podlings.xml
> > with DTD
> > http://incubator.apache.org/podlings.dtd
> >
> > The original versions are also in SVN at :
> >
> > https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk/site-author
> >
> >> The script I used is attached to this message
> >>
> >> - Sam Ruby
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
I have been working to get Empire-DB to graduate, and I expect to have
a vote in front of general@ quite soon.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:17 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16 November 2011 20:57, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Christian Grobmeier
>> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Deltacloud has graduated and can be put off from your list.
>>> Rat is discussing graduation and should be moved from the list too.
>>
>> The master list from which I drew the data can be found here:
>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/
>
> By the way, that page is now generated from an XML file which may be
> easier to parse:
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/podlings.xml
> with DTD
> http://incubator.apache.org/podlings.dtd
>
> The original versions are also in SVN at :
>
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk/site-author
>
>> The script I used is attached to this message
>>
>> - Sam Ruby
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 16 November 2011 20:57, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Christian Grobmeier
> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Deltacloud has graduated and can be put off from your list.
>> Rat is discussing graduation and should be moved from the list too.
>
> The master list from which I drew the data can be found here:
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/
By the way, that page is now generated from an XML file which may be
easier to parse:
http://incubator.apache.org/podlings.xml
with DTD
http://incubator.apache.org/podlings.dtd
The original versions are also in SVN at :
https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk/site-author
> The script I used is attached to this message
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Deltacloud has graduated and can be put off from your list.
> Rat is discussing graduation and should be moved from the list too.
The master list from which I drew the data can be found here:
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/
The script I used is attached to this message
- Sam Ruby
Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org>.
On Wednesday, November 16, 2011 9:48:02 PM Christian Grobmeier wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> > Meanwhile, I will personally focus on JSPWiki. If others wish to join
> > me, here is a a current list of projects that have been incubating
>
> > more than a year:
> On the report is Stonehenge mentioned for garbage collection.
> I spoke to Zeta people today, I still get responses there. Discussion
> is, how things can be improved. I would leave them there and let's
> hope, situation is fixed soon.
>
> Deltacloud has graduated and can be put off from your list.
> Rat is discussing graduation and should be moved from the list too.
>
> On the other projects I can't tell much.
>
> Therefore I am for +1 to start retiring discussion on JSPWiki and Stonehenge
We've already voted to retire Stonehenge. The mentors have been too busy
with other things to finish the final cleanup. As one of the mentors, I'll
take the blame for that. :-(
--
Daniel Kulp
dkulp@apache.org
http://dankulp.com/blog
Talend - http://www.talend.com
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Excellent plot chart. As with most plot charts, the end result is a
> Rorschach test. I'll tell you what I (personally) see in this chart:
> a failure to perform garbage collection. My personal perspective is
> that incubation shouldn't generally take more than a year. That
> doesn't mean that there won't be exceptions, and in a few rare cases,
> some that go well beyond that arbitrary time limit, but the point is
> that those should be the exception rather than the rule.
>
> Looking at the current list of projects, we have many that exceed that
> number. Far exceed that number. In fact the median age is 416 days
> and the mean age is 536.
>
> People here may disagree with my arbitrary date, and that's OK. But
> my feeling is that there needs to be an expectation that a podling
> produces AT THE VERY MINIMUM a credible plan that they are executing
> on which will lead to graduation at some point. If they fail to
> produce such a plan, or fail to execute on that plan (within reason),
> they should be asked to explain themselves. If they fail to do so,
> the incubation at the ASF should cease.
+1
> At the moment, the expectation is that the mentors be the ones to take
> up this task. For whatever reason, that isn't reliably being done.
> This causes the board to complain periodically. I am of the belief
> that the first level of culling needs to be performed at the Incubator
> level. If we need to appoint a set of grim reapers, lets do so, and I
> will volunteer to be a part of such an effort.
+1
I observe several podlings and sometimes I have the feeling that
Mentors are not very active. In addition I welcome such a grim reaper
committee.
I would suggest a semi automatic process for projects who fail to
report (as suggested today). One of the mentors should explain why the
report has failed.
> Meanwhile, I will personally focus on JSPWiki. If others wish to join
> me, here is a a current list of projects that have been incubating
> more than a year:
On the report is Stonehenge mentioned for garbage collection.
I spoke to Zeta people today, I still get responses there. Discussion
is, how things can be improved. I would leave them there and let's
hope, situation is fixed soon.
Deltacloud has graduated and can be put off from your list.
Rat is discussing graduation and should be moved from the list too.
On the other projects I can't tell much.
Therefore I am for +1 to start retiring discussion on JSPWiki and Stonehenge
Cheers
>
> 2007-09-17 JSPWiki
> 2008-01-06 RAT
> 2008-05-20 Hama
> 2008-07-08 Empire-db
> 2008-08-19 PhotArk
> 2008-09-02 Etch
> 2008-09-04 Tashi
> 2008-09-29 Olio
> 2008-10-06 VCL
> 2008-10-09 Droids
> 2008-11-06 Kato
> 2008-11-19 Stonehenge
> 2009-04-24 Ace
> 2009-05-27 Wink
> 2009-07-06 VXQuery
> 2009-07-17 Wookie
> 2009-11-05 HISE
> 2009-11-27 Clerezza
> 2010-01-10 Manifold Connector Framework (ManifoldCF)
> 2010-02-21 SIS
> 2010-03-01 Bean Validation
> 2010-05-09 Amber
> 2010-05-19 Deltacloud
> 2010-05-21 Zeta Components
> 2010-06-24 Nuvem
> 2010-07-14 Chukwa
> 2010-07-22 Lucy
> 2010-08-13 NPanday
> 2010-09-07 Isis
> 2010-09-26 Gora
> 2010-10-03 Kitty
> 2010-11-02 Celix
> 2010-11-15 Stanbol
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
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>
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November
2011)
Posted by Nick Burch <ni...@alfresco.com>.
On Wed, 16 Nov 2011, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Meanwhile, I will personally focus on JSPWiki. If others wish to join
> me, here is a a current list of projects that have been incubating
> more than a year:
I've been meaning to try to help out with JSPWiki for a while, but I've
not yet had the time. If there's going to be more than one of us though,
then hopefully the work involved will be something I can commit to
Currently the JSPWiki mentors are listed as:
* snoopdave - Dave Johnson
* clr - Craig Russell
* henning - Henning Schmiedehausen
* rubys - Sam Ruby
Are any of the others currently active and able to help?
(My hunch from having spoken to a few jspwiki community members is that we
need to have another go at helping them understand the apache way, then
give a deadline, but I've not looked in detail to be sure)
Nick
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On Nov 16, 2011, at 12:36 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>>
>> We are, however, recognizing that we've had growth issues of our own. As
>> David Crossley pointed out, he made mistakes last month related to the
>> Reporting Schedule, and we continue to have issues. The Incubator is almost
>> as big as the rest of the ASF combined. David posted a plot chart
>> reflecting our growth: http://incubator.apache.org/history/
>
>
> Meanwhile, I will personally focus on JSPWiki. If others wish to join
> me, here is a a current list of projects that have been incubating
> more than a year:
>
> 2008-10-06 VCL
VCL has a very active community. I think this project is fine and anticipate graduation, just not sure exactly when.
Regards,
Alan
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@apache.org>.
On 16/11/2011, at 12:36 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> My personal perspective is
> that incubation shouldn't generally take more than a year. That
> doesn't mean that there won't be exceptions, and in a few rare cases,
> some that go well beyond that arbitrary time limit, but the point is
> that those should be the exception rather than the rule.
I agree with that period of time, but would avoid throwing that number around too much as they tend to become unwritten rules. A much better criteria is the other you've mentioned...
> But
> my feeling is that there needs to be an expectation that a podling
> produces AT THE VERY MINIMUM a credible plan that they are executing
> on which will lead to graduation at some point. If they fail to
> produce such a plan, or fail to execute on that plan (within reason),
> they should be asked to explain themselves. If they fail to do so,
> the incubation at the ASF should cease.
For those interested, this was the topic of my talk at ApacheCon this year: http://lanyrd.com/2011/apachecon-north-america/skdqx/
We ask for these in each podling report, but the "top 3 things" tend to not have enough detail (actions to take), or list the wrong types of things without reasoning.
I think we should be asking podlings to have a more complete graduation plan by their 3rd month - even if it has gaps they know they need to fill, or places it may change in future.
Cheers,
Brett
--
Brett Porter
brett@apache.org
http://brettporter.wordpress.com/
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
<no...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> > http://people.apache.org/~rubys/incubator-by-age
>>
>> I think there are more tools like this around... i think it makes
>> sense to somehow link them on the incubator website if possible.
>> Right?
>>
> IDK, should such information be public to that level, or only discussed on
> the level of the IPMC ?
Well, Sams script is already public. In addition - what data show
there is so sensitive we can't make it public?
>
>
>>
>> >
>> > - Sam Ruby
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.grobmeier.de
>> https://www.timeandbill.de
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks
> - Mohammad Nour
> ----
> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
> - Albert Einstein
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Looking at the current list of projects, we have many that exceed that
> >> number. Far exceed that number. In fact the median age is 416 days
> >> and the mean age is 536.
> >
> > Thanks to Gavin installing the necessary prerequisites on
> > people.apache.org, a richer (and live) presentation of this data can
> > be found here:
> >
> > http://people.apache.org/~rubys/incubator-by-age
>
> I think there are more tools like this around... i think it makes
> sense to somehow link them on the incubator website if possible.
> Right?
>
IDK, should such information be public to that level, or only discussed on
the level of the IPMC ?
>
> >
> > - Sam Ruby
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.grobmeier.de
> https://www.timeandbill.de
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>>
>> Looking at the current list of projects, we have many that exceed that
>> number. Far exceed that number. In fact the median age is 416 days
>> and the mean age is 536.
>
> Thanks to Gavin installing the necessary prerequisites on
> people.apache.org, a richer (and live) presentation of this data can
> be found here:
>
> http://people.apache.org/~rubys/incubator-by-age
I think there are more tools like this around... i think it makes
sense to somehow link them on the incubator website if possible.
Right?
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>
> Looking at the current list of projects, we have many that exceed that
> number. Far exceed that number. In fact the median age is 416 days
> and the mean age is 536.
Thanks to Gavin installing the necessary prerequisites on
people.apache.org, a richer (and live) presentation of this data can
be found here:
http://people.apache.org/~rubys/incubator-by-age
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
Hi...
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Hi,
>
> What's the status of this effort?
>
> I went through all the older-than-year podlings identified by Sam for
> a quick (i.e. incomplete) review of the project status. See below for
> my summary (S) and subjective recommendation (R) for each project.
>
> Please branch any followup discussion about specific podlings to
> separate threads.
>
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> > 2007-09-17 JSPWiki
>
> S: Actively discussing leaving the Incubator
> (http://markmail.org/message/etgsawr7mtjggppt).
> R: Ask for an exit or graduation plan in next report (if not executed
> sooner).
>
> > 2008-01-06 RAT
>
> S: Looking to graduate but stuck with (self-inflicted?) bureacracy.
> R: Push to graduate within Q1.
>
> > 2008-05-20 Hama
>
> S: Active but not too diverse (?) community.
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
> > 2008-07-08 Empire-db
>
> S: Graduating in January.
> R: Congratulations!
>
> > 2008-08-19 PhotArk
>
> S: Zero recent activity.
> R: Terminate.
>
> > 2008-09-02 Etch
>
> S: Too small to graduate yet
> (http://markmail.org/message/ihkdh4rfunwzkjs7). Martijn is helping
> them.
> R: More mentors needed?
>
> > 2008-09-04 Tashi
>
> S: Commit activity by two committers but near-zero public discussion.
> No active mentors.
> R: Mentors needed.
>
> > 2008-09-29 Olio
>
> S: Retired.
> R: RIP.
>
> > 2008-10-06 VCL
>
> S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community.
> R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue?
>
> > 2008-10-09 Droids
>
> S: Somewhat active, still not enough for a TLP. Last report mentions
> IP clearance issues?
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
> > 2008-11-06 Kato
>
> S: Zero activity.
> R: Terminate.
>
> > 2008-11-19 Stonehenge
>
> S: Zero activity.
> R: Terminate.
>
> > 2009-04-24 Ace
>
> S: Graduated.
> R: Congratulations!
>
> > 2009-05-27 Wink
>
> S: Pretty low but steady activity. Too small to graduate.
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
> > 2009-07-06 VXQuery
>
> S: Zero recent activity.
> R: Terminate.
>
> > 2009-07-17 Wookie
>
> S: Somewhat active, not enough for a TLP.
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
> > 2009-11-05 HISE
>
> S: Zero recent activity.
> R: Terminate.
>
> > 2009-11-27 Clerezza
>
> S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community.
> R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue?
>
> > 2010-01-10 Manifold Connector Framework (ManifoldCF)
>
> S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community.
> R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue.
>
> > 2010-02-21 SIS
>
> S: Last activity in November
> (
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-sis-dev/201111.mbox/browser
> )
> R: Retire unless activity picks up in Q1.
>
> > 2010-03-01 Bean Validation
>
> S: Just about to graduate.
> R: Congratulations!
>
> > 2010-05-09 Amber
>
> S: Somewhat active, not enough for a TLP.
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
> > 2010-05-19 Deltacloud
>
> S: Graduated.
> R: Congratulations!
>
> > 2010-05-21 Zeta Components
>
> S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community. Looking for a new
> mentor.
> R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue.
>
> > 2010-06-24 Nuvem
>
> S: Last activity in November
> (
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-nuvem-dev/201111.mbox/browser
> )
> R: Retire unless activity picks up in Q1.
>
> > 2010-07-14 Chukwa
>
> S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community.
> R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue?
>
> > 2010-07-22 Lucy
>
> S: Active and apparently pretty diverse community. Why not already
> graduated?
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
> > 2010-08-13 NPanday
>
> S: Active and apparently pretty diverse community. Why not already
> graduated?
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
> > 2010-09-07 Isis
>
> S: Active and apparently pretty diverse community. Why not already
> graduated?
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
Thats all true, the only problem we have is that we didn't get any new
committers yet.
>
> > 2010-09-26 Gora
>
> S: Graduating in January.
> R: Congratulations!
>
> > 2010-10-03 Kitty
>
> S: Last activity in November
> (
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-kitty-dev/201111.mbox/browser
> )
> R: Retire unless activity picks up in Q1.
>
> > 2010-11-02 Celix
>
> S: Somewhat active, not enough for a TLP.
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
> > 2010-11-15 Stanbol
>
> S: Fairly active and apparently diverse community. No release yet.
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
>> 2008-01-06 RAT
>
> S: Looking to graduate but stuck with (self-inflicted?) bureacracy.
> R: Push to graduate within Q1.
Rat is stalled on trademarks
Robert
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Martijn Dashorst <ma...@gmail.com>.
Just an FYI: I have posted a status update on Etch on general@, hoping
it doesn't fall on deaf ears with all the discussions going on:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201201.mbox/%3cCAB63Y-dsJKbkeLjKhUVkBdLmsjwvFVixo0FnXEXOFHq1V4mEPA@mail.gmail.com%3e
Martijn
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> What's the status of this effort?
>
> I went through all the older-than-year podlings identified by Sam for
> a quick (i.e. incomplete) review of the project status. See below for
> my summary (S) and subjective recommendation (R) for each project.
>
> Please branch any followup discussion about specific podlings to
> separate threads.
>
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>> 2007-09-17 JSPWiki
>
> S: Actively discussing leaving the Incubator
> (http://markmail.org/message/etgsawr7mtjggppt).
> R: Ask for an exit or graduation plan in next report (if not executed sooner).
>
>> 2008-01-06 RAT
>
> S: Looking to graduate but stuck with (self-inflicted?) bureacracy.
> R: Push to graduate within Q1.
>
>> 2008-05-20 Hama
>
> S: Active but not too diverse (?) community.
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
>> 2008-07-08 Empire-db
>
> S: Graduating in January.
> R: Congratulations!
>
>> 2008-08-19 PhotArk
>
> S: Zero recent activity.
> R: Terminate.
>
>> 2008-09-02 Etch
>
> S: Too small to graduate yet
> (http://markmail.org/message/ihkdh4rfunwzkjs7). Martijn is helping
> them.
> R: More mentors needed?
>
>> 2008-09-04 Tashi
>
> S: Commit activity by two committers but near-zero public discussion.
> No active mentors.
> R: Mentors needed.
>
>> 2008-09-29 Olio
>
> S: Retired.
> R: RIP.
>
>> 2008-10-06 VCL
>
> S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community.
> R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue?
>
>> 2008-10-09 Droids
>
> S: Somewhat active, still not enough for a TLP. Last report mentions
> IP clearance issues?
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
>> 2008-11-06 Kato
>
> S: Zero activity.
> R: Terminate.
>
>> 2008-11-19 Stonehenge
>
> S: Zero activity.
> R: Terminate.
>
>> 2009-04-24 Ace
>
> S: Graduated.
> R: Congratulations!
>
>> 2009-05-27 Wink
>
> S: Pretty low but steady activity. Too small to graduate.
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
>> 2009-07-06 VXQuery
>
> S: Zero recent activity.
> R: Terminate.
>
>> 2009-07-17 Wookie
>
> S: Somewhat active, not enough for a TLP.
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
>> 2009-11-05 HISE
>
> S: Zero recent activity.
> R: Terminate.
>
>> 2009-11-27 Clerezza
>
> S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community.
> R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue?
>
>> 2010-01-10 Manifold Connector Framework (ManifoldCF)
>
> S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community.
> R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue.
>
>> 2010-02-21 SIS
>
> S: Last activity in November
> (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-sis-dev/201111.mbox/browser)
> R: Retire unless activity picks up in Q1.
>
>> 2010-03-01 Bean Validation
>
> S: Just about to graduate.
> R: Congratulations!
>
>> 2010-05-09 Amber
>
> S: Somewhat active, not enough for a TLP.
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
>> 2010-05-19 Deltacloud
>
> S: Graduated.
> R: Congratulations!
>
>> 2010-05-21 Zeta Components
>
> S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community. Looking for a new mentor.
> R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue.
>
>> 2010-06-24 Nuvem
>
> S: Last activity in November
> (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-nuvem-dev/201111.mbox/browser)
> R: Retire unless activity picks up in Q1.
>
>> 2010-07-14 Chukwa
>
> S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community.
> R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue?
>
>> 2010-07-22 Lucy
>
> S: Active and apparently pretty diverse community. Why not already graduated?
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
>> 2010-08-13 NPanday
>
> S: Active and apparently pretty diverse community. Why not already graduated?
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
>> 2010-09-07 Isis
>
> S: Active and apparently pretty diverse community. Why not already graduated?
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
>> 2010-09-26 Gora
>
> S: Graduating in January.
> R: Congratulations!
>
>> 2010-10-03 Kitty
>
> S: Last activity in November
> (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-kitty-dev/201111.mbox/browser)
> R: Retire unless activity picks up in Q1.
>
>> 2010-11-02 Celix
>
> S: Somewhat active, not enough for a TLP.
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
>> 2010-11-15 Stanbol
>
> S: Fairly active and apparently diverse community. No release yet.
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I went through all the older-than-year podlings identified by Sam for
> a quick (i.e. incomplete) review of the project status. See below for
> my summary (S) and subjective recommendation (R) for each project.
Excellent work! This is the type of information I would love to see
in board reports from the Incubator.
For reference, here are the published incubator reports, minus the
podling reports:
https://whimsy.apache.org/board/minutes/Incubator.html
Here are the podling reports for all of the podlings that have yet to
(or never managed to) graduate:
https://whimsy.apache.org/board/minutes/#podling
Here is an up-to-the-minute update on podlings by age (complete with a graph):
https://whimsy.apache.org/incubator/podlings/by-age
- Sam Ruby
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Re: [DISCUSS] SIS: Need to get back on track (was Fwd: Actively
retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011))
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Hey Adam,
On Jan 8, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Adam Estrada wrote:
> Mattmann,
>
> I think a bare bones demo would be extremely valuable. I can get the how-to docs up to snuff once there is a good baseline core in trunk.
See here:
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/sis/trunk/README.txt
There are instructions in there on how to get SIS up and running and a demo. You interested in helping get that on the wiki?
Also, our website sucks. Sorry to say, but it just does. We need an overhaul there but I have
0 graphics skillz. Any help there would be most welcome.
> What this project really needs are some definite goals and milestones that we can go by.
I laid out my vision of them in: http://s.apache.org/sn so if you've got a different or similar vision,
I'm all ears. I think it's consistent with what I've heard from you on the list so I think we're in
unison.
> What you suggested below is great but it needs to be laid out in the official wiki, right? I assume the index of choice is going to be based on Lucene.
That would be one of our targets, but also:
1. OODT File Manager (catalog)
2. PostGIS
3. HBase
4. Gora?
5. Elastic Search
I bought HBase: the Definitive Guide, so that's on my current reading list, and I can personally take care of #1
and possibly #4 but I don't know enough about #2 or #5 (even though I did buy PostGIS in Action and plan on
re-reading it at some point b/c it was a while back when I read the ebook).
> There are options to this and @tlpinney has laid out the foundation for a really fast, low-level index that can trump the inverted index. ElasticSearch also has some promising spatial capabilities. See below.
It would be great if @tlpinney could join up here on sis-dev@ (or if he's already here great) and chime in
on this.
>
> https://github.com/elasticsearch/elasticsearch/issues/1486
Very cool. A module for SIS for elastic search would go a long way I think.
Cheers,
Chris
>
>
> On Jan 8, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
>
>> Guys,
>>
>> The Incubator is talking about retiring projects. It has been suggested that
>> SIS is on that list. That concerns me.
>>
>> I'm going to do my best to step it up in Q1. We'll see if I (and hopefully many
>> others) can get this podling back on track. I care deeply about the issues here.
>>
>> Here's my concrete set of things to work on over the next 3 months:
>>
>> 1. List of issues I'm going to try to roll for in 0.2: http://s.apache.org/sn
>> 2. Get a baked in demo with Apache OODT that:
>> - dumps HDF/NetCDF data out of CAS Product Server GeoRSS into SIS
>> - loads it into SIS QTree index
>> - makes it searchable via bounding box and point/radius
>> - write wiki page (on our new SIS wiki that I'm going to remind people exists
>> in my next email)
>>
>> Patches, help, discussion welcome.
>>
>> Speaking of which if there are things people are interested in, please have discussions
>> here on list and let's show others that there are more than just a few people that care
>> about a Geospatial Apache licensed toolkit here at the ASF.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>> From: "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>
>>> Date: January 8, 2012 9:05:33 AM PST
>>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>> Subject: Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
>>> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>
>>> Hey Jukka,
>>>
>>> On Jan 8, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
>>>
>>>>> 2010-02-21 SIS
>>>>
>>>> S: Last activity in November
>>>> (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-sis-dev/201111.mbox/browser)
>>>> R: Retire unless activity picks up in Q1.
>>>
>>> As a SIS mentor I'd say this is fair, but my personal gut tells me it would be nice to give
>>> SIS until end of Q2/Q3. Also I'll echo my call again for contributors (mentors, geospatial
>>> enthusiasts, others) and for folks that are interested in having an ALv2 licensed
>>> geospatial toolkit to come on over to sis-dev@ or sis-user@ and contribute.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
>>> Senior Computer Scientist
>>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
>>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
>>> Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
>>> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
>>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
>> Senior Computer Scientist
>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
>> Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
>> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Senior Computer Scientist
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Re: [DISCUSS] SIS: Need to get back on track (was Fwd: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011))
Posted by Adam Estrada <es...@gmail.com>.
Mattmann,
I think a bare bones demo would be extremely valuable. I can get the how-to docs up to snuff once there is a good baseline core in trunk. What this project really needs are some definite goals and milestones that we can go by. What you suggested below is great but it needs to be laid out in the official wiki, right? I assume the index of choice is going to be based on Lucene. There are options to this and @tlpinney has laid out the foundation for a really fast, low-level index that can trump the inverted index. ElasticSearch also has some promising spatial capabilities. See below.
https://github.com/elasticsearch/elasticsearch/issues/1486
Adam
On Jan 8, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
> Guys,
>
> The Incubator is talking about retiring projects. It has been suggested that
> SIS is on that list. That concerns me.
>
> I'm going to do my best to step it up in Q1. We'll see if I (and hopefully many
> others) can get this podling back on track. I care deeply about the issues here.
>
> Here's my concrete set of things to work on over the next 3 months:
>
> 1. List of issues I'm going to try to roll for in 0.2: http://s.apache.org/sn
> 2. Get a baked in demo with Apache OODT that:
> - dumps HDF/NetCDF data out of CAS Product Server GeoRSS into SIS
> - loads it into SIS QTree index
> - makes it searchable via bounding box and point/radius
> - write wiki page (on our new SIS wiki that I'm going to remind people exists
> in my next email)
>
> Patches, help, discussion welcome.
>
> Speaking of which if there are things people are interested in, please have discussions
> here on list and let's show others that there are more than just a few people that care
> about a Geospatial Apache licensed toolkit here at the ASF.
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>
>> Date: January 8, 2012 9:05:33 AM PST
>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
>> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>
>> Hey Jukka,
>>
>> On Jan 8, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
>>
>>>> 2010-02-21 SIS
>>>
>>> S: Last activity in November
>>> (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-sis-dev/201111.mbox/browser)
>>> R: Retire unless activity picks up in Q1.
>>
>> As a SIS mentor I'd say this is fair, but my personal gut tells me it would be nice to give
>> SIS until end of Q2/Q3. Also I'll echo my call again for contributors (mentors, geospatial
>> enthusiasts, others) and for folks that are interested in having an ALv2 licensed
>> geospatial toolkit to come on over to sis-dev@ or sis-user@ and contribute.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>>
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
>> Senior Computer Scientist
>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
>> Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
>> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
> Senior Computer Scientist
> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
> Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
[DISCUSS] SIS: Need to get back on track (was Fwd: Actively
retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011))
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Guys,
The Incubator is talking about retiring projects. It has been suggested that
SIS is on that list. That concerns me.
I'm going to do my best to step it up in Q1. We'll see if I (and hopefully many
others) can get this podling back on track. I care deeply about the issues here.
Here's my concrete set of things to work on over the next 3 months:
1. List of issues I'm going to try to roll for in 0.2: http://s.apache.org/sn
2. Get a baked in demo with Apache OODT that:
- dumps HDF/NetCDF data out of CAS Product Server GeoRSS into SIS
- loads it into SIS QTree index
- makes it searchable via bounding box and point/radius
- write wiki page (on our new SIS wiki that I'm going to remind people exists
in my next email)
Patches, help, discussion welcome.
Speaking of which if there are things people are interested in, please have discussions
here on list and let's show others that there are more than just a few people that care
about a Geospatial Apache licensed toolkit here at the ASF.
Cheers,
Chris
Begin forwarded message:
> From: "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>
> Date: January 8, 2012 9:05:33 AM PST
> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>
> Hey Jukka,
>
> On Jan 8, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
>
>>> 2010-02-21 SIS
>>
>> S: Last activity in November
>> (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-sis-dev/201111.mbox/browser)
>> R: Retire unless activity picks up in Q1.
>
> As a SIS mentor I'd say this is fair, but my personal gut tells me it would be nice to give
> SIS until end of Q2/Q3. Also I'll echo my call again for contributors (mentors, geospatial
> enthusiasts, others) and for folks that are interested in having an ALv2 licensed
> geospatial toolkit to come on over to sis-dev@ or sis-user@ and contribute.
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
> Senior Computer Scientist
> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
> Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Senior Computer Scientist
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report
November 2011)
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Hey Jukka,
On Jan 8, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
>> 2010-02-21 SIS
>
> S: Last activity in November
> (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-sis-dev/201111.mbox/browser)
> R: Retire unless activity picks up in Q1.
As a SIS mentor I'd say this is fair, but my personal gut tells me it would be nice to give
SIS until end of Q2/Q3. Also I'll echo my call again for contributors (mentors, geospatial
enthusiasts, others) and for folks that are interested in having an ALv2 licensed
geospatial toolkit to come on over to sis-dev@ or sis-user@ and contribute.
Cheers,
Chris
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Senior Computer Scientist
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Richard Frovarp <rf...@apache.org>.
On 01/08/2012 06:46 AM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
>
>> 2008-10-09 Droids
> S: Somewhat active, still not enough for a TLP. Last report mentions
> IP clearance issues?
> R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
>
I'm a mentor this project and will get things moving.
You say it isn't active enough for a TLP. My question is what
constitutes active enough? Jim states 3 PMC members to vote on releases.
Upon graduation that project could easily have 3 active PMC members.
The IP clearance issue has been cleared up. That shouldn't have been in
the report.
Expect the next report (next month) to include discussion about an
actual graduation plan.
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report
November 2011)
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Jukka Zitting wrote on Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 17:20:41 +0100:
> Their next status report is due in March; looking forward
> to a summary then.
They're free to send an out-of-cycle report in February if they
want to...
</reminder>
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
Some further followup on this.
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 3:00 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>>> 2008-08-19 PhotArk
>>
>> S: Zero recent activity.
>> R: Terminate.
>
> I contacted photark-dev@, asking for a status update or a decision to
> terminate. Luciano is helping the community.
Led by Luciano, the PhotArk community is discussion a new direction.
I'm looking forward to a summary in their February status report.
>>> 2008-11-06 Kato
>>
>> S: Zero activity.
>> R: Terminate.
>
> The status of Kato (in relation to Oracle's actions) is being
> evaluated. Ant is helping the community.
It seems like Kato now has a more or less definite statement of
non-interest from Oracle, which leaves them discussing how to continue
from here. Their next status report is due in March; looking forward
to a summary then.
>>> 2008-11-19 Stonehenge
>>
>> S: Zero activity.
>> R: Terminate.
>
> I contacted stonehenge-dev@, asking them to retire or come up with a
> plan to revive the project. No mentors visible (6 listed).
As discussed, Stonehenge had already been voted to retire. I completed
the process.
>>> 2009-07-06 VXQuery
>>
>> S: Zero recent activity.
>> R: Terminate.
>
> I contacted vxquery-dev@, asking them to retire or come up with a plan
> to revive the project. No mentors visible (4 listed).
There's some desire for further development, but apparently little
energy or interest in community-building. The option of taking the
codebase to an external hosting space came up. I suggested graduating
into an XMLBeans subproject as an alternative, assuming the XMLBeans
PMC is willing to help with the oversight.
>>> 2009-11-05 HISE
>>
>> S: Zero recent activity.
>> R: Terminate.
>
> I contacted hise-dev@, asking them to retire or come up with a plan to
> revive the project. No mentors visible (3 listed).
I started the hise-dev@ vote to retire the project based on feedback
from the community.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 3:20 PM, Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Thursday, January 12, 2012 3:00:41 PM Jukka Zitting wrote:
>> I contacted stonehenge-dev@, asking them to retire or come up with a
>> plan to revive the project. No mentors visible (6 listed).
>
> We already had the vote to retire it:
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201106.mbox/%3C1479384.AD1QayfXJR%40dilbert.dankulp.com%3E
Thanks! I missed that.
> I've just been to busy to finish up the steps and the other mentors have pretty
> much disappeared. Any help would be appreciated.
No worries. I'll take care of it.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org>.
On Thursday, January 12, 2012 3:00:41 PM Jukka Zitting wrote:
> The status of Kato (in relation to Oracle's actions) is being
> evaluated. Ant is helping the community.
>
> >> 2008-11-19 Stonehenge
> >
> > S: Zero activity.
> > R: Terminate.
>
> I contacted stonehenge-dev@, asking them to retire or come up with a
> plan to revive the project. No mentors visible (6 listed).
We already had the vote to retire it:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201106.mbox/%3C1479384.AD1QayfXJR%40dilbert.dankulp.com%3E
I've just been to busy to finish up the steps and the other mentors have pretty much disappeared. Any help would be appreciated.
--
Daniel Kulp
dkulp@apache.org - http://dankulp.com/blog
Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
Following up on projects where my recommendation was an unconditional
"Terminate".
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>> 2008-08-19 PhotArk
>
> S: Zero recent activity.
> R: Terminate.
I contacted photark-dev@, asking for a status update or a decision to
terminate. Luciano is helping the community.
>> 2008-11-06 Kato
>
> S: Zero activity.
> R: Terminate.
The status of Kato (in relation to Oracle's actions) is being
evaluated. Ant is helping the community.
>> 2008-11-19 Stonehenge
>
> S: Zero activity.
> R: Terminate.
I contacted stonehenge-dev@, asking them to retire or come up with a
plan to revive the project. No mentors visible (6 listed).
>> 2009-07-06 VXQuery
>
> S: Zero recent activity.
> R: Terminate.
I contacted vxquery-dev@, asking them to retire or come up with a plan
to revive the project. No mentors visible (4 listed).
>> 2009-11-05 HISE
>
> S: Zero recent activity.
> R: Terminate.
I contacted hise-dev@, asking them to retire or come up with a plan to
revive the project. No mentors visible (3 listed).
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
What's the status of this effort?
I went through all the older-than-year podlings identified by Sam for
a quick (i.e. incomplete) review of the project status. See below for
my summary (S) and subjective recommendation (R) for each project.
Please branch any followup discussion about specific podlings to
separate threads.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> 2007-09-17 JSPWiki
S: Actively discussing leaving the Incubator
(http://markmail.org/message/etgsawr7mtjggppt).
R: Ask for an exit or graduation plan in next report (if not executed sooner).
> 2008-01-06 RAT
S: Looking to graduate but stuck with (self-inflicted?) bureacracy.
R: Push to graduate within Q1.
> 2008-05-20 Hama
S: Active but not too diverse (?) community.
R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
> 2008-07-08 Empire-db
S: Graduating in January.
R: Congratulations!
> 2008-08-19 PhotArk
S: Zero recent activity.
R: Terminate.
> 2008-09-02 Etch
S: Too small to graduate yet
(http://markmail.org/message/ihkdh4rfunwzkjs7). Martijn is helping
them.
R: More mentors needed?
> 2008-09-04 Tashi
S: Commit activity by two committers but near-zero public discussion.
No active mentors.
R: Mentors needed.
> 2008-09-29 Olio
S: Retired.
R: RIP.
> 2008-10-06 VCL
S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community.
R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue?
> 2008-10-09 Droids
S: Somewhat active, still not enough for a TLP. Last report mentions
IP clearance issues?
R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
> 2008-11-06 Kato
S: Zero activity.
R: Terminate.
> 2008-11-19 Stonehenge
S: Zero activity.
R: Terminate.
> 2009-04-24 Ace
S: Graduated.
R: Congratulations!
> 2009-05-27 Wink
S: Pretty low but steady activity. Too small to graduate.
R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
> 2009-07-06 VXQuery
S: Zero recent activity.
R: Terminate.
> 2009-07-17 Wookie
S: Somewhat active, not enough for a TLP.
R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
> 2009-11-05 HISE
S: Zero recent activity.
R: Terminate.
> 2009-11-27 Clerezza
S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community.
R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue?
> 2010-01-10 Manifold Connector Framework (ManifoldCF)
S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community.
R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue.
> 2010-02-21 SIS
S: Last activity in November
(http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-sis-dev/201111.mbox/browser)
R: Retire unless activity picks up in Q1.
> 2010-03-01 Bean Validation
S: Just about to graduate.
R: Congratulations!
> 2010-05-09 Amber
S: Somewhat active, not enough for a TLP.
R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
> 2010-05-19 Deltacloud
S: Graduated.
R: Congratulations!
> 2010-05-21 Zeta Components
S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community. Looking for a new mentor.
R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue.
> 2010-06-24 Nuvem
S: Last activity in November
(http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-nuvem-dev/201111.mbox/browser)
R: Retire unless activity picks up in Q1.
> 2010-07-14 Chukwa
S: Fairly active but not diverse enough community.
R: More mentor help needed for the community solve the diversity issue?
> 2010-07-22 Lucy
S: Active and apparently pretty diverse community. Why not already graduated?
R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
> 2010-08-13 NPanday
S: Active and apparently pretty diverse community. Why not already graduated?
R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
> 2010-09-07 Isis
S: Active and apparently pretty diverse community. Why not already graduated?
R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
> 2010-09-26 Gora
S: Graduating in January.
R: Congratulations!
> 2010-10-03 Kitty
S: Last activity in November
(http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-kitty-dev/201111.mbox/browser)
R: Retire unless activity picks up in Q1.
> 2010-11-02 Celix
S: Somewhat active, not enough for a TLP.
R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
> 2010-11-15 Stanbol
S: Fairly active and apparently diverse community. No release yet.
R: Ask for a graduation plan in next report.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Kevan Miller <ke...@gmail.com>.
On Nov 20, 2011, at 2:14 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 8:11 AM, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Maybe I've had been using a high bar with the podlings I
>> mentor/participate. I'll look into graduating couple podlings after I
>> come back from Thanks Giving : Apache PhotArk, Apache Wink.
>
> First things first - can you get Wink's copyright status sorted out?
> It's not signed off on the status page yet to say that we have the
> rights to host the code.
>
> This had better just be a case of no one having updated the right page
> given that Wink appears to have been making releases.
Yes, it is… There were initial donations from both IBM and HP. The HP donation was chosen as the initial Wink implementation.
I'll verify the grants (though I recall checking them during the initial contribution) and update the status.
--kevan
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 8:11 AM, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe I've had been using a high bar with the podlings I
> mentor/participate. I'll look into graduating couple podlings after I
> come back from Thanks Giving : Apache PhotArk, Apache Wink.
First things first - can you get Wink's copyright status sorted out?
It's not signed off on the status page yet to say that we have the
rights to host the code.
This had better just be a case of no one having updated the right page
given that Wink appears to have been making releases.
Hen
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>>
>> We are, however, recognizing that we've had growth issues of our own. As
>> David Crossley pointed out, he made mistakes last month related to the
>> Reporting Schedule, and we continue to have issues. The Incubator is almost
>> as big as the rest of the ASF combined. David posted a plot chart
>> reflecting our growth: http://incubator.apache.org/history/
>
> Excellent plot chart. As with most plot charts, the end result is a
> Rorschach test. I'll tell you what I (personally) see in this chart:
> a failure to perform garbage collection. My personal perspective is
> that incubation shouldn't generally take more than a year. That
> doesn't mean that there won't be exceptions, and in a few rare cases,
> some that go well beyond that arbitrary time limit, but the point is
> that those should be the exception rather than the rule.
>
> Looking at the current list of projects, we have many that exceed that
> number. Far exceed that number. In fact the median age is 416 days
> and the mean age is 536.
>
> People here may disagree with my arbitrary date, and that's OK. But
> my feeling is that there needs to be an expectation that a podling
> produces AT THE VERY MINIMUM a credible plan that they are executing
> on which will lead to graduation at some point. If they fail to
> produce such a plan, or fail to execute on that plan (within reason),
> they should be asked to explain themselves. If they fail to do so,
> the incubation at the ASF should cease.
>
> At the moment, the expectation is that the mentors be the ones to take
> up this task. For whatever reason, that isn't reliably being done.
> This causes the board to complain periodically. I am of the belief
> that the first level of culling needs to be performed at the Incubator
> level. If we need to appoint a set of grim reapers, lets do so, and I
> will volunteer to be a part of such an effort.
>
> Meanwhile, I will personally focus on JSPWiki. If others wish to join
> me, here is a a current list of projects that have been incubating
> more than a year:
>
> 2007-09-17 JSPWiki
> 2008-01-06 RAT
> 2008-05-20 Hama
> 2008-07-08 Empire-db
> 2008-08-19 PhotArk
> 2008-09-02 Etch
> 2008-09-04 Tashi
> 2008-09-29 Olio
> 2008-10-06 VCL
> 2008-10-09 Droids
> 2008-11-06 Kato
> 2008-11-19 Stonehenge
> 2009-04-24 Ace
> 2009-05-27 Wink
> 2009-07-06 VXQuery
> 2009-07-17 Wookie
> 2009-11-05 HISE
> 2009-11-27 Clerezza
> 2010-01-10 Manifold Connector Framework (ManifoldCF)
> 2010-02-21 SIS
> 2010-03-01 Bean Validation
> 2010-05-09 Amber
> 2010-05-19 Deltacloud
> 2010-05-21 Zeta Components
> 2010-06-24 Nuvem
> 2010-07-14 Chukwa
> 2010-07-22 Lucy
> 2010-08-13 NPanday
> 2010-09-07 Isis
> 2010-09-26 Gora
> 2010-10-03 Kitty
> 2010-11-02 Celix
> 2010-11-15 Stanbol
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
Maybe I've had been using a high bar with the podlings I
mentor/participate. I'll look into graduating couple podlings after I
come back from Thanks Giving : Apache PhotArk, Apache Wink.
--
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:23 AM, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We are, however, recognizing that we've had growth issues of our own. As
>>>> David Crossley pointed out, he made mistakes last month related to the
>>>> Reporting Schedule, and we continue to have issues. The Incubator is almost
>>>> as big as the rest of the ASF combined. David posted a plot chart
>>>> reflecting our growth: http://incubator.apache.org/history/
>>>
>>> Excellent plot chart. As with most plot charts, the end result is a
>>> Rorschach test. I'll tell you what I (personally) see in this chart:
>>> a failure to perform garbage collection. My personal perspective is
>>> that incubation shouldn't generally take more than a year. That
>>> doesn't mean that there won't be exceptions, and in a few rare cases,
>>> some that go well beyond that arbitrary time limit, but the point is
>>> that those should be the exception rather than the rule.
>
> Sometimes when you turn up the heat and reduce the cooking time, the
> pies end up being half baked...
>
I agree with that and also with Benson's comments about size and
growth often being one of the barriers to graduation. A number of the
long term poddlings don't have a very diverse or even three active
committers, if theres a threat of expulsion because of that they'll
probably just start making any old person a committer just to make up
the numbers.
...ant
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:23 AM, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> We are, however, recognizing that we've had growth issues of our own. As
>>> David Crossley pointed out, he made mistakes last month related to the
>>> Reporting Schedule, and we continue to have issues. The Incubator is almost
>>> as big as the rest of the ASF combined. David posted a plot chart
>>> reflecting our growth: http://incubator.apache.org/history/
>>
>> Excellent plot chart. As with most plot charts, the end result is a
>> Rorschach test. I'll tell you what I (personally) see in this chart:
>> a failure to perform garbage collection. My personal perspective is
>> that incubation shouldn't generally take more than a year. That
>> doesn't mean that there won't be exceptions, and in a few rare cases,
>> some that go well beyond that arbitrary time limit, but the point is
>> that those should be the exception rather than the rule.
Sometimes when you turn up the heat and reduce the cooking time, the
pies end up being half baked...
I think that it should be possible to reduce mean graduation time for
main sequence podlings by tuning the process but worry about moving
away from graduation by acclamation and consensus towards a contested
system. I think this will happen if we just reduce time and increase
the pressure.
> Now that time is freeing up a tiny bit, I need to document a thread
> from August that would put pressure on projects who haven't done their
> IP handling. I'm less worried about a podling who haven't graduated
> after 12 months and more worried about a podling who haven't managed
> to get their CLAs right within 3 months. We still have far too many
> podlings who haven't signed off on that (first) part of their
> incubation.
+1
Defining a more linear process for main sequence podlings would
probably make sense and focus efforts towards graduation priorities
Robert
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> We are, however, recognizing that we've had growth issues of our own.
> As
> >> David Crossley pointed out, he made mistakes last month related to the
> >> Reporting Schedule, and we continue to have issues. The Incubator is
> almost
> >> as big as the rest of the ASF combined. David posted a plot chart
> >> reflecting our growth: http://incubator.apache.org/history/
> >
> > Excellent plot chart. As with most plot charts, the end result is a
> > Rorschach test. I'll tell you what I (personally) see in this chart:
> > a failure to perform garbage collection. My personal perspective is
> > that incubation shouldn't generally take more than a year. That
> > doesn't mean that there won't be exceptions, and in a few rare cases,
> > some that go well beyond that arbitrary time limit, but the point is
> > that those should be the exception rather than the rule.
>
> Now that time is freeing up a tiny bit, I need to document a thread
> from August that would put pressure on projects who haven't done their
> IP handling. I'm less worried about a podling who haven't graduated
> after 12 months and more worried about a podling who haven't managed
> to get their CLAs right within 3 months. We still have far too many
> podlings who haven't signed off on that (first) part of their
> incubation.
>
> So +1 in sentiment, but a different focus.
>
+1 on the same point
>
> Hen
>
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>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>>
>> We are, however, recognizing that we've had growth issues of our own. As
>> David Crossley pointed out, he made mistakes last month related to the
>> Reporting Schedule, and we continue to have issues. The Incubator is almost
>> as big as the rest of the ASF combined. David posted a plot chart
>> reflecting our growth: http://incubator.apache.org/history/
>
> Excellent plot chart. As with most plot charts, the end result is a
> Rorschach test. I'll tell you what I (personally) see in this chart:
> a failure to perform garbage collection. My personal perspective is
> that incubation shouldn't generally take more than a year. That
> doesn't mean that there won't be exceptions, and in a few rare cases,
> some that go well beyond that arbitrary time limit, but the point is
> that those should be the exception rather than the rule.
Now that time is freeing up a tiny bit, I need to document a thread
from August that would put pressure on projects who haven't done their
IP handling. I'm less worried about a podling who haven't graduated
after 12 months and more worried about a podling who haven't managed
to get their CLAs right within 3 months. We still have far too many
podlings who haven't signed off on that (first) part of their
incubation.
So +1 in sentiment, but a different focus.
Hen
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Re: Actively retiring projects (was: Incubator Board Report November 2011)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >
> > We are, however, recognizing that we've had growth issues of our own. As
> > David Crossley pointed out, he made mistakes last month related to the
> > Reporting Schedule, and we continue to have issues. The Incubator is almost
> > as big as the rest of the ASF combined. David posted a plot chart
> > reflecting our growth: http://incubator.apache.org/history/
>
> Excellent plot chart. As with most plot charts, the end result is a
> Rorschach test. I'll tell you what I (personally) see in this chart:
> a failure to perform garbage collection.
That is one of the main reasons that i made it.
As i said in its recent announcement, this is not sustainable
to have 60 projects in the incubator at once.
Clutch has also been attempting to show where more attention
is needed: http://incubator.apache.org/clutch.html
Look for anything coloured vermilion-red (as explained there).
Especially these columns:
"B: elapsedDays"
"H: statusAge"
Some time ago we tried a process whereby the whole Incubator
would help to get projects who were stuck to get over their hurdles.
http://s.apache.org/graduation-appeal
[appeal] Help Us Graduate!
I still think that the idea should be useful, but we obviously
need the graduation-plan-or-retire approach too.
-David
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 15 January 2012 12:12, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 11:49 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I accept there might be some poddlings where the mentors are AWOL but
>> most of the ones I know of the mentors are actually paying attention
>> but there is only so much mentors can do if the poddling isn't very
>> active.
>
> Right, a mentor that just takes care of the responsibilities described
> in [1] can't do much in such a case. However, a mentor with experience
> in growing open source communities and willingness to share it (plus
> the required time and energy) can do much more. Projects like PDFBox
> or River are living examples of how active mentoring can turn around
> the fortunes of a project.
Perhaps we should hold these up as examples of what mentors can do. Is
it possible to document what was done in 500 words or so? (reading on
in your mail I see you make this very suggestion - so we are in
agreement here)
> Or we could form a "community building
> task force" of say a few volunteers who could be called in to help
> podlings that have trouble with this. Or something else; I think
> there's a lot of opportunities for improvement here.
This is similar to what I want to propose when I have had time to put
it together. I think we have made a mistake here in assuming that
building communities in new projects is the same as building
communities in existing projects. Being a part of a successful ASF
project means we understand policy but it does not mean we understand
community building. So when a project that has not yet proven itself
finds it is having difficulty building community our mentors often do
not know what to do. The end result is a "sit and wait" approach - it
works at those ASF projects we work on that are TLPs after all.
The interesting thing is that this approach and the restructuring
others are suggesting are not mutually exclusive. I promise more
detailed thoughts at some point in the future. In the meantime I'd
like to hear peoples thoughts about Jukka's "task force" approach.
Ross
>
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Mentor
>
> BR,
>
> Jukka Zitting
>
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--
Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
Programme Leader (Open Development)
OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 8:54 AM, ant elder <an...@apache.org> wrote:
> I don't know about if they could keep their name but from recent
> discussions elsewhere I expect they would not be able to continue
> using things like org.apache package names which rules out maintenance
> of past releases, small poddlings by definition have limited
> resources, so would struggle with things like rewriting their
> websites, if they used Confluence they probably couldn't get another
> license, if they used the new ASF website stuff its not even available
> to them. Throwing them out would do a lot of damage and would likely
> be the death of a lot of smaller poddlings. Sometimes slow quiet
> poddlings do turn around and become successful, the River example
> proves that. No one is suggesting letting everyone stay for ever no
> matter what but terminating poddlings just because some arbitrary time
> period has expired is stupid.
+1
Robert
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by ant elder <an...@apache.org>.
I don't know about if they could keep their name but from recent
discussions elsewhere I expect they would not be able to continue
using things like org.apache package names which rules out maintenance
of past releases, small poddlings by definition have limited
resources, so would struggle with things like rewriting their
websites, if they used Confluence they probably couldn't get another
license, if they used the new ASF website stuff its not even available
to them. Throwing them out would do a lot of damage and would likely
be the death of a lot of smaller poddlings. Sometimes slow quiet
poddlings do turn around and become successful, the River example
proves that. No one is suggesting letting everyone stay for ever no
matter what but terminating poddlings just because some arbitrary time
period has expired is stupid.
...ant
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I wish we could get past the whole idea that we are punishing
> a podling by insisting that they take their work to say github
> instead. They probably can keep the name since we have no interest
> in it ourselves.
>
> We maintain an open-door policy for new projects, and I think that
> is a good thing that we should keep. What we lack is a sensible
> mechanism for reviewing longstanding projects in terms of their
> projected future in this place. We did NOT promise anyone free
> project hosting, and if they want that there are lots of places
> to get that. We merely provide an opportunity that with a little
> luck, hard work, and determination, they can join the ASF and
> become an Apache project. But they deserve an answer at some point.
>
>
> Purgatory is not what we were designed to offer, never.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>
>> To: general@incubator.apache.org; antelder@apache.org
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:09 PM
>> Subject: Re: Actively retiring projects
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:01 PM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Now to go back and answer Ant's question directly,
>>>
>>> Sam, what you replied doesn't really answer my question directly. The
>>> issue with the long term poddlings which I know about is not that
>>> their reports are not read, they are in fact read so something else is
>>> wrong if there is in fact a problem at all. I'm sorry that you're
>> not
>>> happy with how Kato went, as i said here [1] i expect that to be
>>> resolved shortly and they will have done that themselves rather than
>>> being pushed out by Incubator PMC which i think is a good outcome.
>>>
>>> <big snip>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Speaking as an individual Director here, but we have a board meeting
>>> > in a few days and I can obtain an Official Word™ on the matter if
>>> > that's what people here would like, but I'm highly confident
>> that the
>>> > outcome (directed at the chair) will be something along the lines of
>>> > "see to it that podling reports are adequately vetted before
>>> > forwarding them to the board"
>>> >
>>>
>>> I'd prefer to have an official response from the board on if in fact
>>> it matters if incubation takes longer than a year. Podlings like Nuvem
>>> or Wink or Photark or Kato or which ever else are just small and slow,
>>> so what?
>>>
>>
>> +1 about "... small and slow, so what?"
>>
>> It is true some podlings are just slow and small regarding attracting *new*
>> blood to the podling's community, but the community itself is active, and
>> IMHO it is not fair to punish them for that.
>>
>> On the other hand we still need to answer the question "OK, so till when we
>> should keep them in the Incubator ?" which is a very valid question,
>> honestly I don't have a definitive answer for that, but I would give a lead
>> to an answer/discussion in a form of a question
>>
>> "Is the Incubator the right place for such podlings ?"
>>
>> If the answer is *yes* then we should find a way to manage the increasing
>> number of accepted podling into the incubator relative to the number of
>> active/available mentors, and also we should keep a list of podlings which
>> are not small and they should be doing good and hence being in the
>> Incubator for some long time indicates that there is something wrong.
>>
>> If the answer is No, then:
>> - We should ask them to retire, which is not fair IMHO as I mentioned
>> above
>> - Or Can we create another level of incubtion like, which can be the same
>> as the normal Incubator but we can lessen down the number of initially
>> assigned mentors to 1 and recommend one of the initial committers to become
>> an active Mentor, provided that they have shown that they adapted to the
>> ASF rules very well. This is just a suggestion.
>>
>> Thoughts ?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> (and please note that there is no disrespect intended here. the ideas
>>> and suggestions in this thread and others recently do seem like good
>>> stuff to be trying, regardless of the age of a poddling)
>>>
>>> ...ant
>>>
>>> [1] http://apache.markmail.org/message/trurg7pnt5yk7tei
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks
>> - Mohammad Nour
>> ----
>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>> moving"
>> - Albert Einstein
>>
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 6:46 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>
> <snip.
>
>> 20 Jul 2011:
>>
>> ensure that long running incubating projects actually have a plausible
>> plan to graduate
>
> Thanks - I see now that the pressure for Mentors to active against
> their best judgment of the interests of the Foundation comes from the
> board. Apologies for misunderstanding.
Stop the drama and misrepresentation.
A plausible plan to graduate is a good thing.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
<snip.
> 20 Jul 2011:
>
> ensure that long running incubating projects actually have a plausible
> plan to graduate
Thanks - I see now that the pressure for Mentors to active against
their best judgment of the interests of the Foundation comes from the
board. Apologies for misunderstanding.
Projects like Cassandra, River etc get to about 80% of graduation and
then find they need time and space to made the last 20%. Looks bad on
the plan but for a minority of projects, it happens. Sometimes legal,
brand or incubation policy needs to be developed. This often takes
months. Sometimes an external factor beyond the control of the
community stops development for a period. These sorts of unknown are
hard to plan for. Sometimes it takes a while for a community to
self-organising or discover its identity and enough active developers.
Imposing a plan is particularly delicate in this situation.
Have we done a good enough job of making sure the Board understands
the negative consequences of publicly terminating active communities
who find themselves in one of these situations?
Trusting the community and Mentors has worked well in the past. Does
anyone have any insight into the problem that the Board thinks it's
fixing by this?
Robert
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:59 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>>>> +1
>>
>> Excessive snippage violation.
>>
>>> Voting to terminate a project through lack of success sends a very
>>> clear message. Being 'terminated' is a very clear and public
>>> punishment, both for Mentors and for the project.
>>
>> I didn't call you on it when you said "And now the IPMC seems to have
>> brought only one club: terminate any
>> podling": http://s.apache.org/htF
>>
>> I will do so now.
>>
>> What I, and others, have been asking for is for the Incubator PMC to
>> read, review, and act on Incubator reports before they are sent to the
>> board. When a podling misses a month, or provides a report that is
>> inadequate, or merely inspires questions, ask for that podling to
>> report again next month. If a podling deserves special focus, please
>> ask them to report consecutively for a three month period, and in
>> those reports address questions that have come up from the IPMC. I've
>> said this numerous times. In case you missed it, here are two such
>> links:
>>
>> http://s.apache.org/rN
>> http://s.apache.org/D1c
>
> Both of those are just from the last two days.
Incorrect.
> By your own account you
> and all the other ASF directors, several of whom who are also
> Incubator PMC members, have been reading for example the Kato reports
> repeatedly for 18 months and have made no comments, no questioning of
> anything, no asking for clarifications, no asking for a new report
> next month, and no asking to report consecutively for a three month
> period, certainly no quiet and gentle comment to the mentors or
> poddling to provide more detail in their report for next time.
The board should not be in the business of micromanaging the
Incubator. It should be the Incubator itself that asks for individual
podling reports.
Recent feedback to the Incubator PMC from the board on from the
published reports[1]:
16 Nov 2011:
failure of the Incubator to police the lack of attention by mentors on
projects that have been incubating for years
26 Oct 2011:
focus on graduation
20 Jul 2011:
ensure that long running incubating projects actually have a plausible
plan to graduate
- Sam Ruby
[1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/board/calendar.html (excerpted
here: https://whimsy.apache.org/board/minutes/Incubator.html)
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>>> +1
>
> Excessive snippage violation.
>
>> Voting to terminate a project through lack of success sends a very
>> clear message. Being 'terminated' is a very clear and public
>> punishment, both for Mentors and for the project.
>
> I didn't call you on it when you said "And now the IPMC seems to have
> brought only one club: terminate any
> podling": http://s.apache.org/htF
>
> I will do so now.
>
> What I, and others, have been asking for is for the Incubator PMC to
> read, review, and act on Incubator reports before they are sent to the
> board. When a podling misses a month, or provides a report that is
> inadequate, or merely inspires questions, ask for that podling to
> report again next month. If a podling deserves special focus, please
> ask them to report consecutively for a three month period, and in
> those reports address questions that have come up from the IPMC. I've
> said this numerous times. In case you missed it, here are two such
> links:
>
> http://s.apache.org/rN
> http://s.apache.org/D1c
>
Both of those are just from the last two days. By your own account you
and all the other ASF directors, several of whom who are also
Incubator PMC members, have been reading for example the Kato reports
repeatedly for 18 months and have made no comments, no questioning of
anything, no asking for clarifications, no asking for a new report
next month, and no asking to report consecutively for a three month
period, certainly no quiet and gentle comment to the mentors or
poddling to provide more detail in their report for next time.
...ant
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>> +1
Excessive snippage violation.
> Voting to terminate a project through lack of success sends a very
> clear message. Being 'terminated' is a very clear and public
> punishment, both for Mentors and for the project.
I didn't call you on it when you said "And now the IPMC seems to have
brought only one club: terminate any
podling": http://s.apache.org/htF
I will do so now.
What I, and others, have been asking for is for the Incubator PMC to
read, review, and act on Incubator reports before they are sent to the
board. When a podling misses a month, or provides a report that is
inadequate, or merely inspires questions, ask for that podling to
report again next month. If a podling deserves special focus, please
ask them to report consecutively for a three month period, and in
those reports address questions that have come up from the IPMC. I've
said this numerous times. In case you missed it, here are two such
links:
http://s.apache.org/rN
http://s.apache.org/D1c
I will also point out that one of the projects that I am mentoring,
namely JSPWiki, is actively exploring the idea of terminating
incubation. They are also actively exploring revitalizing the
project, perhaps on a different baseline. Either way, I wish them
well, and won't take it personally. In particular, if the only reason
that they were to want to stay was that for some reason that would be
perceived as a black mark on me personally, I would strongly suggest
that they leave instead.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:30 AM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> On 16 January 2012 09:16, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Ross Gardler
>> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>>> On 15 January 2012 20:55, Robert Burrell Donkin
>>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> Voting to terminate a project through lack of success sends a very
>>>> clear message. Being 'terminated' is a very clear and public
>>>> punishment, both for Mentors and for the project.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure why people (not just you Rob) are fixating on the idea of
>>> voting to terminate a podling. That is currently and will always be an
>>> action of last resort. It is not a new option. We've already done it
>>> for failed projects.
>>
>> Can you give an example of a project with an active community that has
>> been terminated in this way?
>
> No - that is exactly my point. I can give an example of projects with
> *inactive* communities that have been terminated. These proposals are
> no different other than we should be able to identify such projects
> more reliably (or see that what looks inactive today is actually
> active).
The controversial and novel part of this thread is the pressure to
terminate podlings with active communities against the best judgment
of their Mentors.
Robert
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 16 January 2012 09:16, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Ross Gardler
> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>> On 15 January 2012 20:55, Robert Burrell Donkin
>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>>>> +1
>>>
>>> Voting to terminate a project through lack of success sends a very
>>> clear message. Being 'terminated' is a very clear and public
>>> punishment, both for Mentors and for the project.
>>
>> I'm not sure why people (not just you Rob) are fixating on the idea of
>> voting to terminate a podling. That is currently and will always be an
>> action of last resort. It is not a new option. We've already done it
>> for failed projects.
>
> Can you give an example of a project with an active community that has
> been terminated in this way?
No - that is exactly my point. I can give an example of projects with
*inactive* communities that have been terminated. These proposals are
no different other than we should be able to identify such projects
more reliably (or see that what looks inactive today is actually
active).
Ross
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> On 15 January 2012 20:55, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>>> +1
>>
>> Voting to terminate a project through lack of success sends a very
>> clear message. Being 'terminated' is a very clear and public
>> punishment, both for Mentors and for the project.
>
> I'm not sure why people (not just you Rob) are fixating on the idea of
> voting to terminate a podling. That is currently and will always be an
> action of last resort. It is not a new option. We've already done it
> for failed projects.
Can you give an example of a project with an active community that has
been terminated in this way?
Robert
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 15 January 2012 20:55, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>> +1
>
> Voting to terminate a project through lack of success sends a very
> clear message. Being 'terminated' is a very clear and public
> punishment, both for Mentors and for the project.
I'm not sure why people (not just you Rob) are fixating on the idea of
voting to terminate a podling. That is currently and will always be an
action of last resort. It is not a new option. We've already done it
for failed projects.
This discussion is about being clearer about what we expect to see
projects and mentors doing to avoid having such a vote called. It is
not about automatically booting long lived projects (at least that is
how I am reading comments on this and related threads).
As an example, Wookie, is a long lived project. It is not ready for
graduation. However, I believe that the projects board reports
indicate positive community building activities with measurable
results. Furthermore I believe there is sufficient evidence of mentors
being actively engaged with these efforts. Consequently, I have zero
concerns about the IPMC calling a vote to "boot" the project.
The only way I can say this with such certainty is that I am a mentor
and fully engaged with the project. I can be equally certain about
some other long lived projects where I am not a mentor. However, their
board reports are equally (or even more) informative and as a result I
am confident nobody will call to boot those projects.
However, there are other projects I am unable to evaluate into his
way. Here we have to go on trust because board reports are
uninformative. My concern, and that of others AIUI, is that for these
projects mentors appear not to be engaged as reports are not signed
off or are so weak it is unlikely that they discussed them with the
community. Without the support we are supposed to be giving these
projects will they ever graduate?
[ASIDE: I have this problem with some TLP board reports too, but that
is out of scope here]
I don't believe anyone is suggesting that these projects should be
booted. I believe they are saying that we must do a better job of
either a) communicating the project status to those outside the
project or b) giving the project adequate mentorship (whichever is
appropriate)
In *extreme* cases, where the project is just not going to go anywhere
for whatever reason, then we need to consider the long term affects on
the Incubator and the foundation as a whole.
I don't imagine the end result of these discussions will be suddenly
booting projects out. I imagine we will remodel the incubator and its
processes appropriately and then communicate to projects that are "at
risk" what they need to do in order to avoid any problems during the
coming x months, it will not be to call a [VOTE] to boot project
foobar from the incubator.
Ross
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> +1
Voting to terminate a project through lack of success sends a very
clear message. Being 'terminated' is a very clear and public
punishment, both for Mentors and for the project.
IMO termination should be used only as a sanction for podlings which
break our rules
The key service which Foundations like Apache provide is legal
paperwork. Unless backed by a corporate entity, this takes a lot of
volunteer energy. For volunteer led podlings, getting all the release
and legal side right limits time for community building. All this work
is wasted when a podling is terminated.
Being 'parked' would mean this work would not be wasted when temporary
external factors prevent continuation.
IMO where a podling is otherwise satisfactory but fails to reach
critical mass for sustainability in a reasonable period, this is not a
failure but a success. The IPMC should offer an alternative form of
graduation to a destination outside official Apache which preserves
the legal and release work.
Robert
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Ross Gardler
> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>> +1
>>
>> Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity.
>> On Jan 15, 2012 6:18 PM, "Joe Schaefer" <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I wish we could get past the whole idea that we are punishing
>>> a podling by insisting that they take their work to say github
>>> instead. They probably can keep the name since we have no interest
>>> in it ourselves.
>>>
>>> We maintain an open-door policy for new projects, and I think that
>>> is a good thing that we should keep. What we lack is a sensible
>>> mechanism for reviewing longstanding projects in terms of their
>>> projected future in this place. We did NOT promise anyone free
>>> project hosting, and if they want that there are lots of places
>>> to get that. We merely provide an opportunity that with a little
>>> luck, hard work, and determination, they can join the ASF and
>>> become an Apache project. But they deserve an answer at some point.
>>>
>>>
>>> Purgatory is not what we were designed to offer, never.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>
>>> > To: general@incubator.apache.org; antelder@apache.org
>>> > Cc:
>>> > Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:09 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: Actively retiring projects
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:01 PM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > Now to go back and answer Ant's question directly,
>>> >>
>>> >> Sam, what you replied doesn't really answer my question directly. The
>>> >> issue with the long term poddlings which I know about is not that
>>> >> their reports are not read, they are in fact read so something else is
>>> >> wrong if there is in fact a problem at all. I'm sorry that you're
>>> > not
>>> >> happy with how Kato went, as i said here [1] i expect that to be
>>> >> resolved shortly and they will have done that themselves rather than
>>> >> being pushed out by Incubator PMC which i think is a good outcome.
>>> >>
>>> >> <big snip>
>>> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Speaking as an individual Director here, but we have a board meeting
>>> >> > in a few days and I can obtain an Official Word™ on the matter if
>>> >> > that's what people here would like, but I'm highly confident
>>> > that the
>>> >> > outcome (directed at the chair) will be something along the lines of
>>> >> > "see to it that podling reports are adequately vetted before
>>> >> > forwarding them to the board"
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >> I'd prefer to have an official response from the board on if in fact
>>> >> it matters if incubation takes longer than a year. Podlings like Nuvem
>>> >> or Wink or Photark or Kato or which ever else are just small and slow,
>>> >> so what?
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > +1 about "... small and slow, so what?"
>>> >
>>> > It is true some podlings are just slow and small regarding attracting
>>> *new*
>>> > blood to the podling's community, but the community itself is active, and
>>> > IMHO it is not fair to punish them for that.
>>> >
>>> > On the other hand we still need to answer the question "OK, so till when
>>> we
>>> > should keep them in the Incubator ?" which is a very valid question,
>>> > honestly I don't have a definitive answer for that, but I would give a
>>> lead
>>> > to an answer/discussion in a form of a question
>>> >
>>> > "Is the Incubator the right place for such podlings ?"
>>> >
>>> > If the answer is *yes* then we should find a way to manage the increasing
>>> > number of accepted podling into the incubator relative to the number of
>>> > active/available mentors, and also we should keep a list of podlings
>>> which
>>> > are not small and they should be doing good and hence being in the
>>> > Incubator for some long time indicates that there is something wrong.
>>> >
>>> > If the answer is No, then:
>>> > - We should ask them to retire, which is not fair IMHO as I mentioned
>>> > above
>>> > - Or Can we create another level of incubtion like, which can be the
>>> same
>>> > as the normal Incubator but we can lessen down the number of initially
>>> > assigned mentors to 1 and recommend one of the initial committers to
>>> become
>>> > an active Mentor, provided that they have shown that they adapted to the
>>> > ASF rules very well. This is just a suggestion.
>>> >
>>> > Thoughts ?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> (and please note that there is no disrespect intended here. the ideas
>>> >> and suggestions in this thread and others recently do seem like good
>>> >> stuff to be trying, regardless of the age of a poddling)
>>> >>
>>> >> ...ant
>>> >>
>>> >> [1] http://apache.markmail.org/message/trurg7pnt5yk7tei
>>> >>
>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Thanks
>>> > - Mohammad Nour
>>> > ----
>>> > "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>> > moving"
>>> > - Albert Einstein
>>> >
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
+1
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> +1
>
> Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity.
> On Jan 15, 2012 6:18 PM, "Joe Schaefer" <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I wish we could get past the whole idea that we are punishing
>> a podling by insisting that they take their work to say github
>> instead. They probably can keep the name since we have no interest
>> in it ourselves.
>>
>> We maintain an open-door policy for new projects, and I think that
>> is a good thing that we should keep. What we lack is a sensible
>> mechanism for reviewing longstanding projects in terms of their
>> projected future in this place. We did NOT promise anyone free
>> project hosting, and if they want that there are lots of places
>> to get that. We merely provide an opportunity that with a little
>> luck, hard work, and determination, they can join the ASF and
>> become an Apache project. But they deserve an answer at some point.
>>
>>
>> Purgatory is not what we were designed to offer, never.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>
>> > To: general@incubator.apache.org; antelder@apache.org
>> > Cc:
>> > Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:09 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Actively retiring projects
>> >
>> > On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:01 PM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Now to go back and answer Ant's question directly,
>> >>
>> >> Sam, what you replied doesn't really answer my question directly. The
>> >> issue with the long term poddlings which I know about is not that
>> >> their reports are not read, they are in fact read so something else is
>> >> wrong if there is in fact a problem at all. I'm sorry that you're
>> > not
>> >> happy with how Kato went, as i said here [1] i expect that to be
>> >> resolved shortly and they will have done that themselves rather than
>> >> being pushed out by Incubator PMC which i think is a good outcome.
>> >>
>> >> <big snip>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Speaking as an individual Director here, but we have a board meeting
>> >> > in a few days and I can obtain an Official Word™ on the matter if
>> >> > that's what people here would like, but I'm highly confident
>> > that the
>> >> > outcome (directed at the chair) will be something along the lines of
>> >> > "see to it that podling reports are adequately vetted before
>> >> > forwarding them to the board"
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I'd prefer to have an official response from the board on if in fact
>> >> it matters if incubation takes longer than a year. Podlings like Nuvem
>> >> or Wink or Photark or Kato or which ever else are just small and slow,
>> >> so what?
>> >>
>> >
>> > +1 about "... small and slow, so what?"
>> >
>> > It is true some podlings are just slow and small regarding attracting
>> *new*
>> > blood to the podling's community, but the community itself is active, and
>> > IMHO it is not fair to punish them for that.
>> >
>> > On the other hand we still need to answer the question "OK, so till when
>> we
>> > should keep them in the Incubator ?" which is a very valid question,
>> > honestly I don't have a definitive answer for that, but I would give a
>> lead
>> > to an answer/discussion in a form of a question
>> >
>> > "Is the Incubator the right place for such podlings ?"
>> >
>> > If the answer is *yes* then we should find a way to manage the increasing
>> > number of accepted podling into the incubator relative to the number of
>> > active/available mentors, and also we should keep a list of podlings
>> which
>> > are not small and they should be doing good and hence being in the
>> > Incubator for some long time indicates that there is something wrong.
>> >
>> > If the answer is No, then:
>> > - We should ask them to retire, which is not fair IMHO as I mentioned
>> > above
>> > - Or Can we create another level of incubtion like, which can be the
>> same
>> > as the normal Incubator but we can lessen down the number of initially
>> > assigned mentors to 1 and recommend one of the initial committers to
>> become
>> > an active Mentor, provided that they have shown that they adapted to the
>> > ASF rules very well. This is just a suggestion.
>> >
>> > Thoughts ?
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> (and please note that there is no disrespect intended here. the ideas
>> >> and suggestions in this thread and others recently do seem like good
>> >> stuff to be trying, regardless of the age of a poddling)
>> >>
>> >> ...ant
>> >>
>> >> [1] http://apache.markmail.org/message/trurg7pnt5yk7tei
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Thanks
>> > - Mohammad Nour
>> > ----
>> > "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>> > moving"
>> > - Albert Einstein
>> >
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
+1
Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity.
On Jan 15, 2012 6:18 PM, "Joe Schaefer" <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I wish we could get past the whole idea that we are punishing
> a podling by insisting that they take their work to say github
> instead. They probably can keep the name since we have no interest
> in it ourselves.
>
> We maintain an open-door policy for new projects, and I think that
> is a good thing that we should keep. What we lack is a sensible
> mechanism for reviewing longstanding projects in terms of their
> projected future in this place. We did NOT promise anyone free
> project hosting, and if they want that there are lots of places
> to get that. We merely provide an opportunity that with a little
> luck, hard work, and determination, they can join the ASF and
> become an Apache project. But they deserve an answer at some point.
>
>
> Purgatory is not what we were designed to offer, never.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>
> > To: general@incubator.apache.org; antelder@apache.org
> > Cc:
> > Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: Actively retiring projects
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:01 PM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > Now to go back and answer Ant's question directly,
> >>
> >> Sam, what you replied doesn't really answer my question directly. The
> >> issue with the long term poddlings which I know about is not that
> >> their reports are not read, they are in fact read so something else is
> >> wrong if there is in fact a problem at all. I'm sorry that you're
> > not
> >> happy with how Kato went, as i said here [1] i expect that to be
> >> resolved shortly and they will have done that themselves rather than
> >> being pushed out by Incubator PMC which i think is a good outcome.
> >>
> >> <big snip>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Speaking as an individual Director here, but we have a board meeting
> >> > in a few days and I can obtain an Official Word™ on the matter if
> >> > that's what people here would like, but I'm highly confident
> > that the
> >> > outcome (directed at the chair) will be something along the lines of
> >> > "see to it that podling reports are adequately vetted before
> >> > forwarding them to the board"
> >> >
> >>
> >> I'd prefer to have an official response from the board on if in fact
> >> it matters if incubation takes longer than a year. Podlings like Nuvem
> >> or Wink or Photark or Kato or which ever else are just small and slow,
> >> so what?
> >>
> >
> > +1 about "... small and slow, so what?"
> >
> > It is true some podlings are just slow and small regarding attracting
> *new*
> > blood to the podling's community, but the community itself is active, and
> > IMHO it is not fair to punish them for that.
> >
> > On the other hand we still need to answer the question "OK, so till when
> we
> > should keep them in the Incubator ?" which is a very valid question,
> > honestly I don't have a definitive answer for that, but I would give a
> lead
> > to an answer/discussion in a form of a question
> >
> > "Is the Incubator the right place for such podlings ?"
> >
> > If the answer is *yes* then we should find a way to manage the increasing
> > number of accepted podling into the incubator relative to the number of
> > active/available mentors, and also we should keep a list of podlings
> which
> > are not small and they should be doing good and hence being in the
> > Incubator for some long time indicates that there is something wrong.
> >
> > If the answer is No, then:
> > - We should ask them to retire, which is not fair IMHO as I mentioned
> > above
> > - Or Can we create another level of incubtion like, which can be the
> same
> > as the normal Incubator but we can lessen down the number of initially
> > assigned mentors to 1 and recommend one of the initial committers to
> become
> > an active Mentor, provided that they have shown that they adapted to the
> > ASF rules very well. This is just a suggestion.
> >
> > Thoughts ?
> >
> >
> >>
> >> (and please note that there is no disrespect intended here. the ideas
> >> and suggestions in this thread and others recently do seem like good
> >> stuff to be trying, regardless of the age of a poddling)
> >>
> >> ...ant
> >>
> >> [1] http://apache.markmail.org/message/trurg7pnt5yk7tei
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks
> > - Mohammad Nour
> > ----
> > "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
> > moving"
> > - Albert Einstein
> >
>
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
I wish we could get past the whole idea that we are punishing
a podling by insisting that they take their work to say github
instead. They probably can keep the name since we have no interest
in it ourselves.
We maintain an open-door policy for new projects, and I think that
is a good thing that we should keep. What we lack is a sensible
mechanism for reviewing longstanding projects in terms of their
projected future in this place. We did NOT promise anyone free
project hosting, and if they want that there are lots of places
to get that. We merely provide an opportunity that with a little
luck, hard work, and determination, they can join the ASF and
become an Apache project. But they deserve an answer at some point.
Purgatory is not what we were designed to offer, never.
----- Original Message -----
> From: Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>
> To: general@incubator.apache.org; antelder@apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Actively retiring projects
>
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:01 PM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> > Now to go back and answer Ant's question directly,
>>
>> Sam, what you replied doesn't really answer my question directly. The
>> issue with the long term poddlings which I know about is not that
>> their reports are not read, they are in fact read so something else is
>> wrong if there is in fact a problem at all. I'm sorry that you're
> not
>> happy with how Kato went, as i said here [1] i expect that to be
>> resolved shortly and they will have done that themselves rather than
>> being pushed out by Incubator PMC which i think is a good outcome.
>>
>> <big snip>
>>
>> >
>> > Speaking as an individual Director here, but we have a board meeting
>> > in a few days and I can obtain an Official Word™ on the matter if
>> > that's what people here would like, but I'm highly confident
> that the
>> > outcome (directed at the chair) will be something along the lines of
>> > "see to it that podling reports are adequately vetted before
>> > forwarding them to the board"
>> >
>>
>> I'd prefer to have an official response from the board on if in fact
>> it matters if incubation takes longer than a year. Podlings like Nuvem
>> or Wink or Photark or Kato or which ever else are just small and slow,
>> so what?
>>
>
> +1 about "... small and slow, so what?"
>
> It is true some podlings are just slow and small regarding attracting *new*
> blood to the podling's community, but the community itself is active, and
> IMHO it is not fair to punish them for that.
>
> On the other hand we still need to answer the question "OK, so till when we
> should keep them in the Incubator ?" which is a very valid question,
> honestly I don't have a definitive answer for that, but I would give a lead
> to an answer/discussion in a form of a question
>
> "Is the Incubator the right place for such podlings ?"
>
> If the answer is *yes* then we should find a way to manage the increasing
> number of accepted podling into the incubator relative to the number of
> active/available mentors, and also we should keep a list of podlings which
> are not small and they should be doing good and hence being in the
> Incubator for some long time indicates that there is something wrong.
>
> If the answer is No, then:
> - We should ask them to retire, which is not fair IMHO as I mentioned
> above
> - Or Can we create another level of incubtion like, which can be the same
> as the normal Incubator but we can lessen down the number of initially
> assigned mentors to 1 and recommend one of the initial committers to become
> an active Mentor, provided that they have shown that they adapted to the
> ASF rules very well. This is just a suggestion.
>
> Thoughts ?
>
>
>>
>> (and please note that there is no disrespect intended here. the ideas
>> and suggestions in this thread and others recently do seem like good
>> stuff to be trying, regardless of the age of a poddling)
>>
>> ...ant
>>
>> [1] http://apache.markmail.org/message/trurg7pnt5yk7tei
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks
> - Mohammad Nour
> ----
> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
> moving"
> - Albert Einstein
>
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 6:01 PM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>
> > Now to go back and answer Ant's question directly,
>
> Sam, what you replied doesn't really answer my question directly. The
> issue with the long term poddlings which I know about is not that
> their reports are not read, they are in fact read so something else is
> wrong if there is in fact a problem at all. I'm sorry that you're not
> happy with how Kato went, as i said here [1] i expect that to be
> resolved shortly and they will have done that themselves rather than
> being pushed out by Incubator PMC which i think is a good outcome.
>
> <big snip>
>
> >
> > Speaking as an individual Director here, but we have a board meeting
> > in a few days and I can obtain an Official Word™ on the matter if
> > that's what people here would like, but I'm highly confident that the
> > outcome (directed at the chair) will be something along the lines of
> > "see to it that podling reports are adequately vetted before
> > forwarding them to the board"
> >
>
> I'd prefer to have an official response from the board on if in fact
> it matters if incubation takes longer than a year. Podlings like Nuvem
> or Wink or Photark or Kato or which ever else are just small and slow,
> so what?
>
+1 about "... small and slow, so what?"
It is true some podlings are just slow and small regarding attracting *new*
blood to the podling's community, but the community itself is active, and
IMHO it is not fair to punish them for that.
On the other hand we still need to answer the question "OK, so till when we
should keep them in the Incubator ?" which is a very valid question,
honestly I don't have a definitive answer for that, but I would give a lead
to an answer/discussion in a form of a question
"Is the Incubator the right place for such podlings ?"
If the answer is *yes* then we should find a way to manage the increasing
number of accepted podling into the incubator relative to the number of
active/available mentors, and also we should keep a list of podlings which
are not small and they should be doing good and hence being in the
Incubator for some long time indicates that there is something wrong.
If the answer is No, then:
- We should ask them to retire, which is not fair IMHO as I mentioned
above
- Or Can we create another level of incubtion like, which can be the same
as the normal Incubator but we can lessen down the number of initially
assigned mentors to 1 and recommend one of the initial committers to become
an active Mentor, provided that they have shown that they adapted to the
ASF rules very well. This is just a suggestion.
Thoughts ?
>
> (and please note that there is no disrespect intended here. the ideas
> and suggestions in this thread and others recently do seem like good
> stuff to be trying, regardless of the age of a poddling)
>
> ...ant
>
> [1] http://apache.markmail.org/message/trurg7pnt5yk7tei
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> Now to go back and answer Ant's question directly,
Sam, what you replied doesn't really answer my question directly. The
issue with the long term poddlings which I know about is not that
their reports are not read, they are in fact read so something else is
wrong if there is in fact a problem at all. I'm sorry that you're not
happy with how Kato went, as i said here [1] i expect that to be
resolved shortly and they will have done that themselves rather than
being pushed out by Incubator PMC which i think is a good outcome.
<big snip>
>
> Speaking as an individual Director here, but we have a board meeting
> in a few days and I can obtain an Official Word™ on the matter if
> that's what people here would like, but I'm highly confident that the
> outcome (directed at the chair) will be something along the lines of
> "see to it that podling reports are adequately vetted before
> forwarding them to the board"
>
I'd prefer to have an official response from the board on if in fact
it matters if incubation takes longer than a year. Podlings like Nuvem
or Wink or Photark or Kato or which ever else are just small and slow,
so what?
(and please note that there is no disrespect intended here. the ideas
and suggestions in this thread and others recently do seem like good
stuff to be trying, regardless of the age of a poddling)
...ant
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 11:49 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I accept there might be some poddlings where the mentors are AWOL but
>> most of the ones I know of the mentors are actually paying attention
>> but there is only so much mentors can do if the poddling isn't very
>> active.
>
> Right, a mentor that just takes care of the responsibilities described
> in [1] can't do much in such a case. However, a mentor with experience
> in growing open source communities and willingness to share it (plus
> the required time and energy) can do much more. Projects like PDFBox
> or River are living examples of how active mentoring can turn around
> the fortunes of a project.
>
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Mentor
We seem to have a difference of opinion on what a "timely manner" means.
----
I'll note that the first responsibility listed there starts off with:
* to ensure that Incubator PMC decisions and/or issue are dealt with
in a timely manner
We have an instance where a podling has reported, quarter after
quarter, the following:
* Decide in what form the podling should continue, if at all.
And before that, for multiple quarters:
* To be determined once Oracle's involvement has been established.
------
Now to go back and answer Ant's question directly, I believe that the
podling report should fully and completely report on this status (in
this case, the length of time that this question has been lingering is
clearly a relevant matter to report on), and to call for help. If
after quarter, no viable plan comes out of the committers, the
mentors, or the Incubator PMC as a whole, then include THAT in the
report.
The goal here is to become self-governing. The board will not
intercede if there is a reasonable chance that that can occur. Nor
should the Incubator PMC.
But the first step to self governance is accurate self-appraisal. The
first people to notice that the status on an important question such
as "what form the podling should continue" hasn't changed since last
quarter should be the mentors. Should they fail to do so, this should
be caught by the Incubator PMC as a whole. It should never be the
case that such information makes it all the way to the board without
some sort of analysis, trends, projections, enumeration of plans,
hopes, expectation of a miracle: something.
Should the Incubator PMC fail to identify, catch, and work on such
items, the way things are set up, the focus of board interactions will
be to direct things to the chairs, after all, they are the designated
liaison to the board. That doesn't mean that we expect the chair to
be the individual who solves the problem, but just like the current
thread on identifying Champions, it often helps to be able to identify
the ONE person who is responsible.
The root problem here is that we have an incubator PMC which consists
primarily of people who mentor an individual project or three.
Despite the large size of the group, we have nobody identified that
those people can turn to to ask questions. And we have nobody
identified who reads the reports looking for patterns and problems and
seeks to act upon those. And by act, my expectation is that the first
action is to simply to ask questions.
Speaking as an individual Director here, but we have a board meeting
in a few days and I can obtain an Official Word™ on the matter if
that's what people here would like, but I'm highly confident that the
outcome (directed at the chair) will be something along the lines of
"see to it that podling reports are adequately vetted before
forwarding them to the board"
Speaking as a member of the Incubator PMC, I am willing to review
reports as a member of the PMC, and do so here, and before such is
forwarded to the board. I hope that there are others that will join
me.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 01:12:47PM +0100, Jukka Zitting wrote:
> In the recent years we've spent a lot of time
> focusing on procedural and legal details, while community building and
> social dynamics haven't gotten much attention. Perhaps we should start
> looking at how to build up that aspect of the Incubator
How about adding a requirement that podlings put a CONTRIBUTING document at
the top of their VCS tree?
That's an incremental change which fits within the current incubation workflow
and would be easy to audit.
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 16 January 2012 09:27, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Ross Gardler
> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Can we please stop with the alarmist statements and silly votes.
>
> This is Apache. Apache runs through VOTEs. No VOTE is silly.
Robert, you know better than this. I can't believe I really need to
quote how the ASF works to you of all people. But I do need to do so
for others who might be reading this:
"Reasons for Votes
People tend to avoid conflict and thrash around looking for something
to substitute - somebody in charge, a rule, a process, stagnation.
None of these tend to be very good substitutes for doing the hard work
of resolving the conflict."
http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
Ross
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
<snip>
> Can we please stop with the alarmist statements and silly votes.
This is Apache. Apache runs through VOTEs. No VOTE is silly.
Robert
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:42 AM, Ross Gardler
> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>> On 16 January 2012 09:31, Robert Burrell Donkin
>
> <snip>
>
>>> The right way to discipline Mentors is to remove them from the IPMC.
>>> I've started a thread on private. Threatening to terminate their
>>> podlings just muddies the waters.
>>
>> We are *not* talking about disciplining mentors we are talking about
>> helping them do a better job or, if they are inactive, recognising
>> this and helping the podling find the mentoring they need. It is about
>> feedback loops, not about big sticks.
>
> The line beyond constructive feedback was passed long ago in these
> discussions. There are clearly two strongly held but incompatible
> views on the nature of Mentoring and governance at Apache. Either find
> constructive ways to blend them, or remove the destructive minority.
>
> I believe in community led development, and that community building is
> an art that requires judgment not a science that can be planned.
>
> I back Ant and the Mentors who allowed River, Cassandra etc the space
> they needed to find and build their communities. I stand by our
> decision to allow Kato time to try to resolve it's external problems.
> I have not been persuaded that I'm wrong but I'm no longer will to
> argue. Either accept my minority opinion or remove my karma.
>
>
Well put, same goes for me too.
...ant
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:42 AM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> On 16 January 2012 09:31, Robert Burrell Donkin
<snip>
>> The right way to discipline Mentors is to remove them from the IPMC.
>> I've started a thread on private. Threatening to terminate their
>> podlings just muddies the waters.
>
> We are *not* talking about disciplining mentors we are talking about
> helping them do a better job or, if they are inactive, recognising
> this and helping the podling find the mentoring they need. It is about
> feedback loops, not about big sticks.
The line beyond constructive feedback was passed long ago in these
discussions. There are clearly two strongly held but incompatible
views on the nature of Mentoring and governance at Apache. Either find
constructive ways to blend them, or remove the destructive minority.
I believe in community led development, and that community building is
an art that requires judgment not a science that can be planned.
I back Ant and the Mentors who allowed River, Cassandra etc the space
they needed to find and build their communities. I stand by our
decision to allow Kato time to try to resolve it's external problems.
I have not been persuaded that I'm wrong but I'm no longer will to
argue. Either accept my minority opinion or remove my karma.
I do understand now that there is a majority who are frustrated with
the poor quality of our reporting. I'm frustrated too.
Robert
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 16 January 2012 09:31, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:23 AM, ant elder <an...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Ross Gardler
>> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>>> On 16 January 2012 09:05, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> ActiveMQ, Cassandra, CXF, Felix, Harmony
>>>>
>>>> Are people seriously suggesting that the ASF would be better off had
>>>> we terminated those poddlings just because some time period of
>>>> incubation had passed?
>>>
>>> Can we please stop with this kind of language, Nobody has suggested
>>> that a podling be terminated at a fixed point in time. Let me repeat
>>> that ***NOBODY*** has suggested this.
>>>
>>
>> You and Sam have just replied +1 to Joe's suggestion that we are not
>> in the business of providing free hosting and that we should insist
>> some poddlings be taken to GitHub. The subject of this thread is
>> "Actively retiring projects". If what is being proposed is in fact not
>> actively retiring projects then lets shut this thread down and start
>> up some new threads on what the proposals really are.
That is true, and I still I agree with Joes statement.
But let me be clear, I agree with the statement Joe made, not the
statement you seem to think he made. Joe did *not* say that we should
kick projects out at a specified point in time. What he said was "I
wish we could get past the whole idea that we are punishing a podling
by insisting that they take their work to say github instead.... What
we lack is a sensible mechanism for reviewing longstanding projects in
terms of their projected future in this place."
This is what I said in the text you snipped from above.
> The right way to discipline Mentors is to remove them from the IPMC.
> I've started a thread on private. Threatening to terminate their
> podlings just muddies the waters.
We are *not* talking about disciplining mentors we are talking about
helping them do a better job or, if they are inactive, recognising
this and helping the podling find the mentoring they need. It is about
feedback loops, not about big sticks.
Ross
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:23 AM, ant elder <an...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Ross Gardler
> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>> On 16 January 2012 09:05, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> ActiveMQ, Cassandra, CXF, Felix, Harmony
>>>
>>> Are people seriously suggesting that the ASF would be better off had
>>> we terminated those poddlings just because some time period of
>>> incubation had passed?
>>
>> Can we please stop with this kind of language, Nobody has suggested
>> that a podling be terminated at a fixed point in time. Let me repeat
>> that ***NOBODY*** has suggested this.
>>
>
> You and Sam have just replied +1 to Joe's suggestion that we are not
> in the business of providing free hosting and that we should insist
> some poddlings be taken to GitHub. The subject of this thread is
> "Actively retiring projects". If what is being proposed is in fact not
> actively retiring projects then lets shut this thread down and start
> up some new threads on what the proposals really are.
+1
The right way to discipline Mentors is to remove them from the IPMC.
I've started a thread on private. Threatening to terminate their
podlings just muddies the waters.
Robert
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by ant elder <an...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> On 16 January 2012 09:05, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> ActiveMQ, Cassandra, CXF, Felix, Harmony
>>
>> Are people seriously suggesting that the ASF would be better off had
>> we terminated those poddlings just because some time period of
>> incubation had passed?
>
> Can we please stop with this kind of language, Nobody has suggested
> that a podling be terminated at a fixed point in time. Let me repeat
> that ***NOBODY*** has suggested this.
>
You and Sam have just replied +1 to Joe's suggestion that we are not
in the business of providing free hosting and that we should insist
some poddlings be taken to GitHub. The subject of this thread is
"Actively retiring projects". If what is being proposed is in fact not
actively retiring projects then lets shut this thread down and start
up some new threads on what the proposals really are.
...ant
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 16 January 2012 09:05, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
...
> ActiveMQ, Cassandra, CXF, Felix, Harmony
>
> Are people seriously suggesting that the ASF would be better off had
> we terminated those poddlings just because some time period of
> incubation had passed?
Can we please stop with this kind of language, Nobody has suggested
that a podling be terminated at a fixed point in time. Let me repeat
that ***NOBODY*** has suggested this.
What has been suggested is:
a) we need better feedback loops between IPMC and Podlings
b) we need better feedback loops between Board and IPMC
c) we need to do a better job of mentoring projects that seem to lack
a credible plan for graduation
d) where a credible plan for graduation is not developed with the help
of the IPMC then, and only then, will we consider whether the
incubator is the right home for that project
Can we please stop with the alarmist statements and silly votes.
Instead lets please focs on doing a,b and c. If we do that well no
project will ever get to d.
Ross
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 8:43 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Projects like PDFBox
>> or River are living examples of how active mentoring can turn around
>> the fortunes of a project.
>>
>
> I'm sure the mentoring was ace but a large amount of why River turned
> around was down to its participants, without them and what they did no
> amount of mentoring would have fixed it.
>
> River incubated for four and a half years, and during that time had
> quite some "nothing much going on" type reports.
>
> If some of the recent suggestion were actual Incubator policy River
> would be at GitHub.
>
> ...ant
And following up on that, along with River taking four and a half
years you can see all the projects that have graduated from the
Incubator listed here: http://incubator.apache.org/projects/#graduate
All of the ones on the first page incubated for longer than one year.
>From quick scan through the dates a lot of projects took longer than
one year, many much longer. I am quite willing to entertain the notion
that we should improve the processes and policies at the Incubator, do
a better job of helping poddlings, be more proactive with graduating
poddlings, or what ever else is being suggested but, picking out just
a few well known ones...
ActiveMQ, Cassandra, CXF, Felix, Harmony
Are people seriously suggesting that the ASF would be better off had
we terminated those poddlings just because some time period of
incubation had passed?
...ant
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 4:45 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The email suggests termination as the final solution for a number of podlings
As mentioned in the referenced email, this was a "subjective
recommendation" based on a "quick (i.e. incomplete) review". There has
since been followup that has clarified both the reviewed status and
the recommendations for further action. Some of the mentioned podlings
seem to be headed for termination, others not.
I don't really see how that email could lead to your conclusion of
"terminating projects with active communities is the area of active
dispute".
Nevertheless I apologize for using the loaded term "terminate" and for
being too hasty in making such recommendations.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Furthermore... IBM is in no position to offer ANYTHING
to Oracle regarding their status in the Kato podling.
Our rules forbid collusion and corporate block voting,
so even if every person on the PPMC were an IBM employee
they'd still be expected to cast their votes for a prospective
Oracle committer based on their own individual criterion
for committership. And so far I've seen nothing to indicate
Oracle will be bringing any material contributions to Kato.
Nothing.
The whole idea that the Kato project is waiting on an Oracle rep
to appear was an uncorrected IBM fantasy. At some point in the
project's lifetime they actually did discuss what to do in case
Oracle didn't show, and the people who spoke up preferred that the
project continue on towards graduation and ignore the JSR.
Those people were simply ignored.
>________________________________
> From: Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>
>To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 9:43 PM
>Subject: Re: Actively retiring projects
>
>
>Wow, the Kato JSR is IBM-led, so there aren't even
>any IP obstacles to continuing on as an Apache project.
>No Apache project should ever put itself in the position
>of saying to the world: please leave us alone while we
>await the arrival of X. For any value of X. Apache
>projects are supposed to be welcome to the public and
>volunteer driven, not aconsortium of corporate-controlled
>entities. Therewas simply no good reason for those
>reports to everstate that the project was mothballed
>until Oracle'sarrival. That is not aligned with how
>we operate at all, and the mentors should've corrected
>it years ago.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>________________________________
>> From: Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>
>>To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 12:17 PM
>>Subject: Re: Actively retiring projects
>>
>>
>>I can't figure out what is more important to you
>>at this point Robert, salvaging your ego or helping
>>your podling succeed here. If I were in your shoes
>>I would stop trying to defend my past actions there
>>and give the podling a clear choice: what's more
>>
>>important to them- faithful implementation of an Oracle
>>led JSR or advancement to a full Apache project?
>>Open source projects control their own destiny, not
>>Oracle, and that is just as true with Kato as it was
>>with Harmony.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>________________________________
>>> From: Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>
>>>To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>>Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 10:45 AM
>>>Subject: Re: Actively retiring projects
>>>
>>>On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
>>>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Ross Gardler
>>>>> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 16 January 2012 11:51, Robert Burrell Donkin
>>>>>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Terminating projects with active communities is the area of active
dispute
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you please provide a link to a message in the archive that states
>>>>>> that a project with an active community should be terminated?
>>>>>
>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201201.mbox/%3CCAOFYJNbZ6PYSHZnfgm7GQSVwECoKqDQRjHMJwOLCmXCYUBbiUA%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>>
>>>> Close reading of that message indicates a suggestion that an inactive
>>>> community be terminated.
>>>
>>>The email suggests termination as the final solution for a number of podlings
>>>
>>>If the intention was to highlight potentially inactive podlings,
>>>labeling them as 'inactive' would have been clearer
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>> Language is important. Project 'termination' feels very different from
>>>>> 'parking' or 'emeritus graduation', even though the actions taken in
>>>>> each case may be very similar.
>>>>
>>>>> IMO it's time to start
thinking about, describing and documentation
>>>>> exit paths which lead outside Apache without a judgment of failure on
>>>>> anyone's part
>>>>
>>>> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#graduated
>>>> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#dormant
>>>> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#retired
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps "dormant" would be an appropriate description of the Kato
>>>> polding at this time?
>>>
>>>Kato is now - and has been - stalled for more than a year: work was
>>>stopped by an external impediment (rather than interest drifting away)
>>>[1]
>>>
>>>It would have been clearer to be able to mark this sort of situation
>>>and suspend animation
>>>
>>>Robert
>>>[1] The community
awaits a decision from Oracle. At
one time, this was
>>>expected promptly. Now hope fades.
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Wow, the Kato JSR is IBM-led, so there aren't even
any IP obstacles to continuing on as an Apache project.
No Apache project should ever put itself in the position
of saying to the world: please leave us alone while we
await the arrival of X. For any value of X. Apache
projects are supposed to be welcome to the public and
volunteer driven, not aconsortium of corporate-controlled
entities. Therewas simply no good reason for those
reports to everstate that the project was mothballed
until Oracle'sarrival. That is not aligned with how
we operate at all, and the mentors should've corrected
it years ago.
>________________________________
> From: Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>
>To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 12:17 PM
>Subject: Re: Actively retiring projects
>
>
>I can't figure out what is more important to you
>at this point Robert, salvaging your ego or helping
>your podling succeed here. If I were in your shoes
>I would stop trying to defend my past actions there
>and give the podling a clear choice: what's more
>
>important to them- faithful implementation of an Oracle
>led JSR or advancement to a full Apache project?
>Open source projects control their own destiny, not
>Oracle, and that is just as true with Kato as it was
>with Harmony.
>
>
>
>
>>________________________________
>> From: Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>
>>To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 10:45 AM
>>Subject: Re: Actively retiring projects
>>
>>On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
>>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Ross Gardler
>>>> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 16 January 2012 11:51, Robert Burrell Donkin
>>>>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Terminating projects with active communities is the area of active
dispute
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you please provide a link to a message in the archive that states
>>>>> that a project with an active community should be terminated?
>>>>
>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201201.mbox/%3CCAOFYJNbZ6PYSHZnfgm7GQSVwECoKqDQRjHMJwOLCmXCYUBbiUA%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>
>>> Close reading of that message indicates a suggestion that an inactive
>>> community be terminated.
>>
>>The email suggests termination as the final solution for a number of podlings
>>
>>If the intention was to highlight potentially inactive podlings,
>>labeling them as 'inactive' would have been clearer
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>> Language is important. Project 'termination' feels very different from
>>>> 'parking' or 'emeritus graduation', even though the actions taken in
>>>> each case may be very similar.
>>>
>>>> IMO it's time to start
thinking about, describing and documentation
>>>> exit paths which lead outside Apache without a judgment of failure on
>>>> anyone's part
>>>
>>> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#graduated
>>> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#dormant
>>> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#retired
>>>
>>> Perhaps "dormant" would be an appropriate description of the Kato
>>> polding at this time?
>>
>>Kato is now - and has been - stalled for more than a year: work was
>>stopped by an external impediment (rather than interest drifting away)
>>[1]
>>
>>It would have been clearer to be able to mark this sort of situation
>>and suspend animation
>>
>>Robert
>>[1] The community awaits a decision from Oracle. At
one time, this was
>>expected promptly. Now hope fades.
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
I can't figure out what is more important to you
at this point Robert, salvaging your ego or helping
your podling succeed here. If I were in your shoes
I would stop trying to defend my past actions there
and give the podling a clear choice: what's more
important to them- faithful implementation of an Oracle
led JSR or advancement to a full Apache project?
Open source projects control their own destiny, not
Oracle, and that is just as true with Kato as it was
with Harmony.
>________________________________
> From: Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>
>To: general@incubator.apache.org
>Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 10:45 AM
>Subject: Re: Actively retiring projects
>
>On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Ross Gardler
>>> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>>>> On 16 January 2012 11:51, Robert Burrell Donkin
>>>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> Terminating projects with active communities is the area of active dispute
>>>>
>>>> Can you please provide a link to a message in the archive that states
>>>> that a project with an active community should be terminated?
>>>
>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201201.mbox/%3CCAOFYJNbZ6PYSHZnfgm7GQSVwECoKqDQRjHMJwOLCmXCYUBbiUA%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>
>> Close reading of that message indicates a suggestion that an inactive
>> community be terminated.
>
>The email suggests termination as the final solution for a number of podlings
>
>If the intention was to highlight potentially inactive podlings,
>labeling them as 'inactive' would have been clearer
>
><snip>
>
>>> Language is important. Project 'termination' feels very different from
>>> 'parking' or 'emeritus graduation', even though the actions taken in
>>> each case may be very similar.
>>
>>> IMO it's time to start thinking about, describing and documentation
>>> exit paths which lead outside Apache without a judgment of failure on
>>> anyone's part
>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#graduated
>> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#dormant
>> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#retired
>>
>> Perhaps "dormant" would be an appropriate description of the Kato
>> polding at this time?
>
>Kato is now - and has been - stalled for more than a year: work was
>stopped by an external impediment (rather than interest drifting away)
>[1]
>
>It would have been clearer to be able to mark this sort of situation
>and suspend animation
>
>Robert
>[1] The community awaits a decision from Oracle. At one time, this was
>expected promptly. Now hope fades.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
>
Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Ross Gardler
>> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>>> On 16 January 2012 11:51, Robert Burrell Donkin
>>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Terminating projects with active communities is the area of active dispute
>>>
>>> Can you please provide a link to a message in the archive that states
>>> that a project with an active community should be terminated?
>>
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201201.mbox/%3CCAOFYJNbZ6PYSHZnfgm7GQSVwECoKqDQRjHMJwOLCmXCYUBbiUA%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>
> Close reading of that message indicates a suggestion that an inactive
> community be terminated.
The email suggests termination as the final solution for a number of podlings
If the intention was to highlight potentially inactive podlings,
labeling them as 'inactive' would have been clearer
<snip>
>> Language is important. Project 'termination' feels very different from
>> 'parking' or 'emeritus graduation', even though the actions taken in
>> each case may be very similar.
>
>> IMO it's time to start thinking about, describing and documentation
>> exit paths which lead outside Apache without a judgment of failure on
>> anyone's part
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#graduated
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#dormant
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#retired
>
> Perhaps "dormant" would be an appropriate description of the Kato
> polding at this time?
Kato is now - and has been - stalled for more than a year: work was
stopped by an external impediment (rather than interest drifting away)
[1]
It would have been clearer to be able to mark this sort of situation
and suspend animation
Robert
[1] The community awaits a decision from Oracle. At one time, this was
expected promptly. Now hope fades.
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Ross Gardler
> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>> On 16 January 2012 11:51, Robert Burrell Donkin
>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> Terminating projects with active communities is the area of active dispute
>>
>> Can you please provide a link to a message in the archive that states
>> that a project with an active community should be terminated?
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201201.mbox/%3CCAOFYJNbZ6PYSHZnfgm7GQSVwECoKqDQRjHMJwOLCmXCYUBbiUA%40mail.gmail.com%3E
Close reading of that message indicates a suggestion that an inactive
community be terminated. In any case, there is follow-up here:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201201.mbox/%3CCAOFYJNb0Wp4=jzuqh3AL47Q7_YPK4Z40M32UNFm0Yy-npDAqbg@mail.gmail.com%3E
And here:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201201.mbox/%3CCAOFYJNbv1UOKudA4WPyubfab1fs4dxGRp_qVnrXbN1n_s_wmpA%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> (I'm now nearly out of Incubator time this week - and maybe next - so
> apologies in advance for no more replies)
>
> Language is important. Project 'termination' feels very different from
> 'parking' or 'emeritus graduation', even though the actions taken in
> each case may be very similar.
> IMO it's time to start thinking about, describing and documentation
> exit paths which lead outside Apache without a judgment of failure on
> anyone's part
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#graduated
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#dormant
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html#retired
Perhaps "dormant" would be an appropriate description of the Kato
polding at this time?
> Robert
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> On 16 January 2012 11:51, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> Terminating projects with active communities is the area of active dispute
>
> Can you please provide a link to a message in the archive that states
> that a project with an active community should be terminated?
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201201.mbox/%3CCAOFYJNbZ6PYSHZnfgm7GQSVwECoKqDQRjHMJwOLCmXCYUBbiUA%40mail.gmail.com%3E
(I'm now nearly out of Incubator time this week - and maybe next - so
apologies in advance for no more replies)
Language is important. Project 'termination' feels very different from
'parking' or 'emeritus graduation', even though the actions taken in
each case may be very similar.
IMO it's time to start thinking about, describing and documentation
exit paths which lead outside Apache without a judgment of failure on
anyone's part
Robert
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 16 January 2012 11:51, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
...
> Terminating projects with active communities is the area of active dispute
Can you please provide a link to a message in the archive that states
that a project with an active community should be terminated?
Ross
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Terminating projects with active communities is the area of active dispute
Stop the drama and misrepresentation.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:38 AM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:43 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Projects like PDFBox
>>> or River are living examples of how active mentoring can turn around
>>> the fortunes of a project.
>>
>> I'm sure the mentoring was ace but a large amount of why River turned
>> around was down to its participants, without them and what they did no
>> amount of mentoring would have fixed it.
>
> Obviously.
>
>> River incubated for four and a half years, and during that time had
>> quite some "nothing much going on" type reports.
>>
>> If some of the recent suggestion were actual Incubator policy River
>> would be at GitHub.
>
> Which suggestions? As has been repeatedly pointed out by Sam, all
> that's being proposed here are ways to better detect and solve such
> problems, which is exactly what happened with River
Terminating projects with active communities is the area of active dispute
Robert
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:43 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Projects like PDFBox
>> or River are living examples of how active mentoring can turn around
>> the fortunes of a project.
>
> I'm sure the mentoring was ace but a large amount of why River turned
> around was down to its participants, without them and what they did no
> amount of mentoring would have fixed it.
Obviously.
> River incubated for four and a half years, and during that time had
> quite some "nothing much going on" type reports.
>
> If some of the recent suggestion were actual Incubator policy River
> would be at GitHub.
Which suggestions? As has been repeatedly pointed out by Sam, all
that's being proposed here are ways to better detect and solve such
problems, which is exactly what happened with River.
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Projects like PDFBox
> or River are living examples of how active mentoring can turn around
> the fortunes of a project.
>
I'm sure the mentoring was ace but a large amount of why River turned
around was down to its participants, without them and what they did no
amount of mentoring would have fixed it.
River incubated for four and a half years, and during that time had
quite some "nothing much going on" type reports.
If some of the recent suggestion were actual Incubator policy River
would be at GitHub.
...ant
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 11:49 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I accept there might be some poddlings where the mentors are AWOL but
> most of the ones I know of the mentors are actually paying attention
> but there is only so much mentors can do if the poddling isn't very
> active.
Right, a mentor that just takes care of the responsibilities described
in [1] can't do much in such a case. However, a mentor with experience
in growing open source communities and willingness to share it (plus
the required time and energy) can do much more. Projects like PDFBox
or River are living examples of how active mentoring can turn around
the fortunes of a project.
Most of the cases I've been involved so far of podlings in the "hoping
some more people come along" have had symptoms of the project team not
paying enough attention on making it easy for new contributors to show
up and stick around. Things like complex and undocumented build
steps, missing "Getting started" or "Getting involved" guides, lack of
quick and positive feedback to newcomers, etc., are all too common.
Fixing even just some of such things will dramatically increase the
odds of new people showing up.
Those are things that are very easy to overlook when you're working on
your first open source projects (it took me years to learn those
lessons), but we here have a massive amount of collective experience
on such things. That's what we could and IMHO should be sharing with
the podlings. That's what "mentoring" to me is about and that's where
our most precious "added value" is. Otherwise incubation just boils
down to an indoctrination period on how to apply and conform to the
various Apache rules and policies.
> Sam, from your comments I take it that you think the Incubator should
> be doing more in those situations, what else should we do with those
> type of poddlings?
As outlined above, I think there's a lot more we could collectively do
to help such podlings. In the recent years we've spent a lot of time
focusing on procedural and legal details, while community building and
social dynamics haven't gotten much attention. Perhaps we should start
looking at how to build up that aspect of the Incubator, possibly in
cooperation with ComDev as already mentioned.
Instead of introducing new rules and responsibilities to address this
issue, I think what we could do is to start collecting things like
case studies and best practices from podlings that have managed to
solve commonly seen issues. Or we could form a "community building
task force" of say a few volunteers who could be called in to help
podlings that have trouble with this. Or something else; I think
there's a lot of opportunities for improvement here.
[1] http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Mentor
BR,
Jukka Zitting
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>> Sam,
>>
>>> My personal perspective is that incubation shouldn't generally take more than a year.
>>
>> The problem is with small communities. What do you suggest with projects that are functional, but just barely have a critical mass, or not quite even?
>>
>>> my feeling is that there needs to be an expectation that a podling
>>> produces AT THE VERY MINIMUM a credible plan that they are executing
>>> on which will lead to graduation at some point.
>>
>> Many of them say that they need to grow their community. What do you suggest they do while trying? Do we simply call them done after 365 days?
>
> I'm asking two things of the Incubator: (a) police the lack of
> attention by mentors on projects
> that have been incubating for years, and (b) setting the expectation
> that a podling produces AT THE VERY MINIMUM a credible plan that they
> are executing on which will lead to graduation at some point.
>
There are several poddlings I watch that are more than a year old and
don't have even three active committers. Their undocumented plan is
hang around doing day to day dev and occasional bits of publicity and
poddling promotion hoping some more people come along to help and get
the numbers up high enough to graduate.
I accept there might be some poddlings where the mentors are AWOL but
most of the ones I know of the mentors are actually paying attention
but there is only so much mentors can do if the poddling isn't very
active.
Sam, from your comments I take it that you think the Incubator should
be doing more in those situations, what else should we do with those
type of poddlings? It seems harsh to terminate the poddling,
conversely it doesn't seem right to just lower the bar after a year
and graduate them anyway.
...ant
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Re: Actively retiring projects
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Sam,
>
>> My personal perspective is that incubation shouldn't generally take more than a year.
>
> The problem is with small communities. What do you suggest with projects that are functional, but just barely have a critical mass, or not quite even?
>
>> my feeling is that there needs to be an expectation that a podling
>> produces AT THE VERY MINIMUM a credible plan that they are executing
>> on which will lead to graduation at some point.
>
> Many of them say that they need to grow their community. What do you suggest they do while trying? Do we simply call them done after 365 days?
I'm asking two things of the Incubator: (a) police the lack of
attention by mentors on projects
that have been incubating for years, and (b) setting the expectation
that a podling produces AT THE VERY MINIMUM a credible plan that they
are executing on which will lead to graduation at some point.
In this month's incubator report, I'm seeing an increase in podling
reports that contain steps needed for graduation. Awareness is a
great first step.
- Sam Ruby
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RE: Actively retiring projects
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Sam,
> My personal perspective is that incubation shouldn't generally take more than a year.
The problem is with small communities. What do you suggest with projects that are functional, but just barely have a critical mass, or not quite even?
> my feeling is that there needs to be an expectation that a podling
> produces AT THE VERY MINIMUM a credible plan that they are executing
> on which will lead to graduation at some point.
Many of them say that they need to grow their community. What do you suggest they do while trying? Do we simply call them done after 365 days?
> Meanwhile, I will personally focus on JSPWiki.
I would have expected that one done long ago. And some of the ones on your list are actually dead. Perhaps just not yet buried, which I would agree falls under the term of garbage collection.
--- Noel
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