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Posted to users@wicket.apache.org by Arjun Dhar <dh...@yahoo.com> on 2010/09/16 06:52:01 UTC
Java in CMS arena,..wicket to lead the way?!
Summary::
This conversation is about Java in the CMS space, comparison to PHP and is
there a future to reduce turn around time with Java. Are we as a community
too elitist to be stuck on masturbating on frameworks rather than solutions
that affect direct outcome? ..and then technically I've centered this around
Brix & wicket.
Hi,
I've been exploring lot of Java CMS solutions and also frameworks. BRIX,
Alfresco I feel are good for different reasons.
>From a Web framework point of view, I feel Wicket & I guess Sling cut the
mark pretty well (not much experience yet with Sling).
However, with Java Community the solutions (beyond framework) finish is not
comparable to the likes of PHP giants like Drupal, Wordpress etc. I operate
in the small business market a lot , and this really hurts. I really feel
the Java.
With earlier version of Java it would get tedious and too boilerplate to
produce anything quickly fast. But with the advent of scripting languages
galore, be it Server JavaScript, Groovy, Scala ... and so many wonderful
frameworks we have not taken it to the next level to producing quality CMS.
Brix apparently will not be evolved further. which is fine; for its intent
it does a good job but what about taking this to the next level. Also,
problem with most CMS is they are content centric (ok hence they are called
CMS) may seem dumb at a glance.
..but I dont want my business model to go into a JCR repository. Perhaps the
intent of the site is to reflect the actual product & business model in a
neat way with WebDav. Lets call it PMS (hah) for lack of a better
abbreviation. Also the ability to customize the admin module to give a
Product centric view instead of Content centric view. This allows for
greater analytic s and also then using java as an integration platform to
integrate the business model with infinite things at the back end with
pluggable extensions.
I liked BRIX for many reasons. Am wondering if people are thinking about
what I mentioned above ..also if we can take Brix further (not core) but by
adding extensions and delivering a quality complete solution that could
rival something like Drupal in the near future ...or maybe eventually!
..sorry i don't have my own Blog. You see WordPress is in PHP *wink hehe.
Get the point?! :)
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Re: Java in CMS arena,..wicket to lead the way?!
Posted by Arjun Dhar <dh...@yahoo.com>.
@Richard
"Apache Roller is a Java based blogging system, if you're looking for
something. "
--- I've used Roller and like it a lot functionally. But am circumspect of
its integration capabilities with other CMS, and also integration of its
Admin module to be a plugin-component into another CMS instead of a stand
alone system. Their Wiki isnt that insightful to tell me all this. So beyond
functionally what it does stand alone I'd like to understand its integration
capabilities more. If you guys know and are doing something in Lenya for
that, please share it. I'd love to understand first..and then possibly
contribute about things I've mentioned.
I think the basic point it to allow *integration*, scripting, plug-in
capabilities and not have to provide everything under one roof. I like BRIX
for this reason; simple CORE and extend anywhere.. but it suffers from other
things I've mentioned above. Will give Leya a shot too.
thanks a lot.
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Re: Java in CMS arena,..wicket to lead the way?!
Posted by Richard Frovarp <rf...@gmail.com>.
On 09/15/2010 11:52 PM, Arjun Dhar wrote:
>
> Summary::
> This conversation is about Java in the CMS space, comparison to PHP and is
> there a future to reduce turn around time with Java. Are we as a community
> too elitist to be stuck on masturbating on frameworks rather than solutions
> that affect direct outcome? ..and then technically I've centered this around
> Brix& wicket.
>
>
> Hi,
> I've been exploring lot of Java CMS solutions and also frameworks. BRIX,
> Alfresco I feel are good for different reasons.
>
> From a Web framework point of view, I feel Wicket& I guess Sling cut the
> mark pretty well (not much experience yet with Sling).
>
> However, with Java Community the solutions (beyond framework) finish is not
> comparable to the likes of PHP giants like Drupal, Wordpress etc. I operate
> in the small business market a lot , and this really hurts. I really feel
> the Java.
>
> With earlier version of Java it would get tedious and too boilerplate to
> produce anything quickly fast. But with the advent of scripting languages
> galore, be it Server JavaScript, Groovy, Scala ... and so many wonderful
> frameworks we have not taken it to the next level to producing quality CMS.
>
> Brix apparently will not be evolved further. which is fine; for its intent
> it does a good job but what about taking this to the next level. Also,
> problem with most CMS is they are content centric (ok hence they are called
> CMS) may seem dumb at a glance.
> ..but I dont want my business model to go into a JCR repository. Perhaps the
> intent of the site is to reflect the actual product& business model in a
> neat way with WebDav. Lets call it PMS (hah) for lack of a better
> abbreviation. Also the ability to customize the admin module to give a
> Product centric view instead of Content centric view. This allows for
> greater analytic s and also then using java as an integration platform to
> integrate the business model with infinite things at the back end with
> pluggable extensions.
>
> I liked BRIX for many reasons. Am wondering if people are thinking about
> what I mentioned above ..also if we can take Brix further (not core) but by
> adding extensions and delivering a quality complete solution that could
> rival something like Drupal in the near future ...or maybe eventually!
>
>
> ..sorry i don't have my own Blog. You see WordPress is in PHP *wink hehe.
> Get the point?! :)
>
>
Apache Lenya is working on designing our next version. We're leaning
towards Sling and possibly using Wicket as well. If you're interested,
we're always looking for people to help out.
Apache Roller is a Java based blogging system, if you're looking for
something.
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Re: Java in CMS arena,..wicket to lead the way?!
Posted by Arjun Dhar <dh...@yahoo.com>.
Earlier I had written it off, but on you suggestion I am taking a fresh look
at it. It seems well supported and documented. Am studying it... will get
back on my findings. thanks
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Re: Java in CMS arena,..wicket to lead the way?!
Posted by james yong <i_...@yahoo.com.sg>.
How about Hippo CMS?
-james
Arjun Dhar wrote:
>
> Summary::
> This conversation is about Java in the CMS space, comparison to PHP and is
> there a future to reduce turn around time with Java. Are we as a community
> too elitist to be stuck on masturbating on frameworks rather than
> solutions that affect direct outcome? ..and then technically I've centered
> this around Brix & wicket.
>
>
> Hi,
> I've been exploring lot of Java CMS solutions and also frameworks. BRIX,
> Alfresco I feel are good for different reasons.
>
> From a Web framework point of view, I feel Wicket & I guess Sling cut the
> mark pretty well (not much experience yet with Sling).
>
> However, with Java Community the solutions (beyond framework) finish is
> not comparable to the likes of PHP giants like Drupal, Wordpress etc. I
> operate in the small business market a lot , and this really hurts. I
> really feel that Java which has evolved into a wonderful platform with
> many frameworks ..n yet thats where it stops.
>
> With earlier version of Java it would get tedious and too boilerplate to
> produce anything quickly fast. But with the advent of scripting languages
> galore, be it Server JavaScript, Groovy, Scala ... and so many wonderful
> frameworks we have not taken it to the next level to producing quality
> CMS.
>
> Brix apparently will not be evolved further. which is fine; for its intent
> it does a good job but what about taking this to the next level. Also,
> problem with most CMS is they are content centric (ok hence they are
> called CMS) may seem dumb at a glance.
> ..but I dont want my business model to go into a JCR repository. Perhaps
> the intent of the site is to reflect the actual product & business model
> in a neat way with WebDav. Lets call it PMS (hah) for lack of a better
> abbreviation. Also the ability to customize the admin module to give a
> Product centric view instead of Content centric view. This allows for
> greater analytic s and also then using java as an integration platform to
> integrate the business model with infinite things at the back end with
> pluggable extensions.
>
> I liked BRIX for many reasons. Am wondering if people are thinking about
> what I mentioned above ..also if we can take Brix further (not core) but
> by adding extensions and delivering a quality complete solution that could
> rival something like Drupal in the near future ...or maybe eventually!
>
>
> ..sorry i don't have my own Blog. You see WordPress is in PHP *wink hehe.
> Get the point?! :)
>
>
>
--
View this message in context: http://apache-wicket.1842946.n4.nabble.com/Java-in-CMS-arena-wicket-to-lead-the-way-tp2541542p2541877.html
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Re: Java in CMS arena,..wicket to lead the way?!
Posted by Jeremy Thomerson <je...@wickettraining.com>.
>
> > From a "using for commercial web sites" perspective, issue is from a UI
> > perspective the Admin module has a poor finish compared to Alfresco and
> say
> > Hippo; its not just the CSS but the general layout sucks. ...I cant sell
> a
> > website & present that to the customer without significant effort.
> Something
> > I can look to contribute on.
>
> I appreciate that. But to defend whomever did that work, I don't design
> sites very well myself. Maybe we could covert things to use a vertical
> accordion or something. That's what I'm doing for my internal sites
> anyway...
>
I think that someone could easily create more than one alternative style.
The thing that would be hardest to change is the look of each actual
configuration panel since these are controlled by the plugins themselves.
But, as long as they're using common css classes, etc, then even this
shouldn't be too difficult (methinks).
--
Jeremy Thomerson
http://www.wickettraining.com
Re: Java in CMS arena,..wicket to lead the way?!
Posted by Brian Topping <to...@codehaus.org>.
On Sep 17, 2010, at 2:04 AM, Arjun Dhar wrote:
>
> @Brian -
>
> "but there's a lot of fragmented development and not a lot of investment
> going back in."
> --- yes, this is what I sense. I'm not even aware of the Brix community
> unlike Wicket which is more active. If you see the Brix architecture page i
> put some comments but Looks pretty dead which is pretty de-motivating.
One of the seeds that is missing from Brix is a good understanding of how things work internally. Often, the people who can learn it with no documentation are such experienced programmers that they are either too busy with everyone asking them for something or they are not very good communicators (preferring to write more code). Both of these mean when people learn how Brix works, it doesn't often translate into good code.
>
> "I would challenge you to create needs in the core by demonstrating those
> needs"
> --- No, I dont think the core needs to be changed as such, Simple is better
> & should remain preserved. However we can upgrade the Wicket dependencies
> from time to time? :) ?!
Hehe, yes. The last time I looked for Jackrabbit in http://mvnrepository.com, it was still at 2.0.0, now it seems there are two newer versions in there. What I will do is do a release on what's in there, then go ahead and upgrade the dependencies on trunk so people can see if they like them. I think we should release that too after people have had some time with it.
I would propose we start acting like an Apache project and taking votes on releases.
> I ALSO like the idea it does NOT have a custom workflow etc built into core,
> coz I'm a fan of Drools work flow & Rules Engines to allocate business logic
> and workflows; Apache Camel & Spring Integration.
I'm also a fan of these projects, so I would *personally* have no problem integrating them, but we can't even collectively agree that OSGi is a good thing, so I'm sure that frameworks like these would never be unanimously received. :-)
On the other hand, abstracted interfaces with default implementations... that would be great.
>
> "If you are worried about people having access to your assets"
> --- No sir, the more the merrier. I'd love to get into it once i'm sure to
> commit time & effort.
>
> From a "using for commercial web sites" perspective, issue is from a UI
> perspective the Admin module has a poor finish compared to Alfresco and say
> Hippo; its not just the CSS but the general layout sucks. ...I cant sell a
> website & present that to the customer without significant effort. Something
> I can look to contribute on.
I appreciate that. But to defend whomever did that work, I don't design sites very well myself. Maybe we could covert things to use a vertical accordion or something. That's what I'm doing for my internal sites anyway...
>
> thank you.
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://apache-wicket.1842946.n4.nabble.com/Java-in-CMS-arena-wicket-to-lead-the-way-tp2541542p2543378.html
> Sent from the Users forum mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Java in CMS arena,..wicket to lead the way?!
Posted by Arjun Dhar <dh...@yahoo.com>.
@Brian -
"but there's a lot of fragmented development and not a lot of investment
going back in."
--- yes, this is what I sense. I'm not even aware of the Brix community
unlike Wicket which is more active. If you see the Brix architecture page i
put some comments but Looks pretty dead which is pretty de-motivating.
"I would challenge you to create needs in the core by demonstrating those
needs"
--- No, I dont think the core needs to be changed as such, Simple is better
& should remain preserved. However we can upgrade the Wicket dependencies
from time to time? :) ?!
I ALSO like the idea it does NOT have a custom workflow etc built into core,
coz I'm a fan of Drools work flow & Rules Engines to allocate business logic
and workflows; Apache Camel & Spring Integration.
"If you are worried about people having access to your assets"
--- No sir, the more the merrier. I'd love to get into it once i'm sure to
commit time & effort.
>From a "using for commercial web sites" perspective, issue is from a UI
perspective the Admin module has a poor finish compared to Alfresco and say
Hippo; its not just the CSS but the general layout sucks. ...I cant sell a
website & present that to the customer without significant effort. Something
I can look to contribute on.
thank you.
--
View this message in context: http://apache-wicket.1842946.n4.nabble.com/Java-in-CMS-arena-wicket-to-lead-the-way-tp2541542p2543378.html
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Re: Java in CMS arena,..wicket to lead the way?!
Posted by Brian Topping <to...@codehaus.org>.
Have you thought about getting more involved with Brix?
One of the great things about it is it isn't too centered on any one area. It would be easy for you to help with a suite of plugins for doing the kind of stuff that you're talking about. There are people on the Brix list that are talking about shopping carts right now, for instance. Brix was originally designed for a company doing this kind of thing. It's all possible, but there's a lot of fragmented development and not a lot of investment going back in.
Regarding the core, a lot of the features in core are going to be driven by needs in the plugins. Hence, I would challenge you to create needs in the core by demonstrating those needs in the plugins.
Sometimes it's challenging on a small project to get the feedback that helps make development fun. On the other hand, if the development isn't there, the community never grows to provide the feedback.
If you are worried about people having access to your assets, I'm sure you could find others that are working on things with the same feelings and you could start off privately.
Let's build some stuff!
Brian
On Sep 16, 2010, at 12:52 AM, Arjun Dhar wrote:
>
> Summary::
> This conversation is about Java in the CMS space, comparison to PHP and is
> there a future to reduce turn around time with Java. Are we as a community
> too elitist to be stuck on masturbating on frameworks rather than solutions
> that affect direct outcome? ..and then technically I've centered this around
> Brix & wicket.
>
>
> Hi,
> I've been exploring lot of Java CMS solutions and also frameworks. BRIX,
> Alfresco I feel are good for different reasons.
>
> From a Web framework point of view, I feel Wicket & I guess Sling cut the
> mark pretty well (not much experience yet with Sling).
>
> However, with Java Community the solutions (beyond framework) finish is not
> comparable to the likes of PHP giants like Drupal, Wordpress etc. I operate
> in the small business market a lot , and this really hurts. I really feel
> the Java.
>
> With earlier version of Java it would get tedious and too boilerplate to
> produce anything quickly fast. But with the advent of scripting languages
> galore, be it Server JavaScript, Groovy, Scala ... and so many wonderful
> frameworks we have not taken it to the next level to producing quality CMS.
>
> Brix apparently will not be evolved further. which is fine; for its intent
> it does a good job but what about taking this to the next level. Also,
> problem with most CMS is they are content centric (ok hence they are called
> CMS) may seem dumb at a glance.
> ..but I dont want my business model to go into a JCR repository. Perhaps the
> intent of the site is to reflect the actual product & business model in a
> neat way with WebDav. Lets call it PMS (hah) for lack of a better
> abbreviation. Also the ability to customize the admin module to give a
> Product centric view instead of Content centric view. This allows for
> greater analytic s and also then using java as an integration platform to
> integrate the business model with infinite things at the back end with
> pluggable extensions.
>
> I liked BRIX for many reasons. Am wondering if people are thinking about
> what I mentioned above ..also if we can take Brix further (not core) but by
> adding extensions and delivering a quality complete solution that could
> rival something like Drupal in the near future ...or maybe eventually!
>
>
> ..sorry i don't have my own Blog. You see WordPress is in PHP *wink hehe.
> Get the point?! :)
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://apache-wicket.1842946.n4.nabble.com/Java-in-CMS-arena-wicket-to-lead-the-way-tp2541542p2541542.html
> Sent from the Users forum mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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>
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