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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> on 2006/01/30 20:53:49 UTC
Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Just seen the post below on the Tomcat users lists. Is the use of
"Tomcat" in the product's name a breach of our license terms?
Specifically:
6. Trademarks. This License does not grant permission to use the trade
names, trademarks, service marks, or product names of the Licensor,
except as required for reasonable and customary use in describing
the origin of the Work and reproducing the content of the NOTICE
file.
IANAL but this looks to be in breach to me. I would be happy to be
proved wrong though...
If it is a breach, I assume a quiet word is in order. If so, who would
normally do this? I am happy to as a member of the Tomcat community
but if there is a set procedure I am equally happy to go with that.
Cheers,
Mark
Vlad.Ilyschenko@informa.com wrote:
> Fellow Tomcat users,
>
> I am pleased to announce version 1.0.8b of TomcatProbe. This release
> features support for Oracle datasources, new session attribute browser
> view, user interface improvements and bug fixes.
>
> Full release note can be found here:
> http://www.tomcatprobe.org/d/latest.shtml
>
> The official home page of Tomcat probe is http://www.tomcatprobe.org
>
> Live demo site: http://www.tomcatprobelive.com (u:demo, p:demo)
>
> I have also created a little how-to on Oracle datasource configuration
> for Tomcat just because I have had hard time working it out.
> http://www.tomcatprobe.org/d/oracle.shtml
>
> Any questions please do ask!
>
>
>
> ********************************************************************************
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Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Thursday 30 March 2006 05:53, Ian Holsman wrote:
>
>>I don't think any of us in the ASF think he is a schmuck... and we
>>REALLY hope he will continue with ongoing development of his tool.
>>we just object to the name, and hope we can come to a mutually
>>acceptable solution which benefits both of us.
>
>
> If that is the position, then embrace instead of confront. So, why not suggest
> to bring it to Incubation.
The thought had crossed my mind. I want to resolve the legal position
first (happening now on legal-internal) and then make a decision about
a way forward.
Mark
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Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Thursday 30 March 2006 05:53, Ian Holsman wrote:
> I don't think any of us in the ASF think he is a schmuck... and we
> REALLY hope he will continue with ongoing development of his tool.
> we just object to the name, and hope we can come to a mutually
> acceptable solution which benefits both of us.
If that is the position, then embrace instead of confront. So, why not suggest
to bring it to Incubation.
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Ian Holsman <li...@holsman.net>.
just a point here.
the guy has got a good tool, which may be of benefit to the community.
I don't think any of us in the ASF think he is a schmuck... and we
REALLY hope he will continue with ongoing development of his tool.
we just object to the name, and hope we can come to a mutually
acceptable solution which benefits both of us.
regards
Ian
(not a lawyer, and not speaking for the ASF in a official capacity)
On 30/03/2006, at 8:36 AM, Jesse Kuhnert wrote:
> yeah! good to see that someone is here to protect us from schmucks :)
>
> On 3/29/06, Lawrence Rosen <lrosen@rosenlaw.com > wrote:I suggest
> we take this to legal-internal.
>
> /Larry
>
> Lawrence Rosen
> Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (www.rosenlaw.com)
> Stanford University, Lecturer in Law
> 3001 King Ranch Road, Ukiah, CA 95482
> 707-485-1242 * fax: 707-485-1243
> Author of "Open Source Licensing: Software Freedom and
> Intellectual Property Law" (Prentice Hall 2004)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Thomas [mailto: markt@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:11 PM
> To: lrosen@rosenlaw.com
> Cc: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
>
> Lawrence Rosen wrote:
> >>Upayavira wrote:
> >>
> >>>But surely 'Tomcat' is also an Apache trademark. It would, to my
> mind,
> >>>be valid to describe it as "XXX Probe for Apache Tomcat", but
> not Tomcat
> >>>Probe.
> >>>
> >>
> >>This is what I am thinking. Can any one give a more definitive
> opinion
> >>one way or the other?
> >
> >
> > If we filed a US registration we'd be able to answer that question
> > precisely. However, in our somewhat informal state of common law
> trademark,
> > which is all we have, it isn't clear to me what the "goods" are
> that are
> in
> > association with the "Tomcat" mark. That's one other advantage of
> > registration.
> >
> > I suggest, though, that "Tomcat Probe software" would be an
> infringement
> of
> > our common law trademark in "Tomcat software." We shouldn't
> acquiesce in
> > their use.
> >
> > /Larry
>
> The Tomcat PMC has been in contact with the author of "Tomcat Probe"
> and he is unwilling to change the name without an official Apache
> position that this is a trademark infringement.
>
> Where do I go to get such a statement? Is Larry's statement above it?
> If it is, I am concerned about the use of the phrase "I suggest...".
> IANAL. Is this just lawyer speak for "In my opinion x, but nothing is
> certain unless you go to court and ask a judge."?
>
> For the legally minded the author's position is:
> <quote>
> * "Tomcat Probe" is a phrase to express the very nature of the project
> and not just a catchphrase. It is my interpretation that "Tomcat
> Probe" qualifies as "customary description of work" and therefore does
> not violate Apache License and I will stand by this until I hear an
> official position of ASF on this matter.
> </quote>
>
> Finally, is this the right list to be having this discussion given
> that it is publicly archived? If not, where is?
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice on this.
>
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
> constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
> and policies of the ASF. See < http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
> official ASF policies and documents.
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>
>
> --
> Jesse Kuhnert
> Tacos/Tapestry, team member/developer
>
> Open source based consulting work centered around dojo/tapestry/
> tacos/hivemind. http://opennotion.com
--
Ian Holsman ++61-3-9877-0909
Some days we are the flies; some days we are the windscreens
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Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com>.
yeah! good to see that someone is here to protect us from schmucks :)
On 3/29/06, Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com> wrote:
>
> I suggest we take this to legal-internal.
>
> /Larry
>
> Lawrence Rosen
> Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (www.rosenlaw.com)
> Stanford University, Lecturer in Law
> 3001 King Ranch Road, Ukiah, CA 95482
> 707-485-1242 * fax: 707-485-1243
> Author of "Open Source Licensing: Software Freedom and
> Intellectual Property Law" (Prentice Hall 2004)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Thomas [mailto:markt@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:11 PM
> To: lrosen@rosenlaw.com
> Cc: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
>
> Lawrence Rosen wrote:
> >>Upayavira wrote:
> >>
> >>>But surely 'Tomcat' is also an Apache trademark. It would, to my mind,
> >>>be valid to describe it as "XXX Probe for Apache Tomcat", but not
> Tomcat
> >>>Probe.
> >>>
> >>
> >>This is what I am thinking. Can any one give a more definitive opinion
> >>one way or the other?
> >
> >
> > If we filed a US registration we'd be able to answer that question
> > precisely. However, in our somewhat informal state of common law
> trademark,
> > which is all we have, it isn't clear to me what the "goods" are that are
> in
> > association with the "Tomcat" mark. That's one other advantage of
> > registration.
> >
> > I suggest, though, that "Tomcat Probe software" would be an infringement
> of
> > our common law trademark in "Tomcat software." We shouldn't acquiesce in
> > their use.
> >
> > /Larry
>
> The Tomcat PMC has been in contact with the author of "Tomcat Probe"
> and he is unwilling to change the name without an official Apache
> position that this is a trademark infringement.
>
> Where do I go to get such a statement? Is Larry's statement above it?
> If it is, I am concerned about the use of the phrase "I suggest...".
> IANAL. Is this just lawyer speak for "In my opinion x, but nothing is
> certain unless you go to court and ask a judge."?
>
> For the legally minded the author's position is:
> <quote>
> * "Tomcat Probe" is a phrase to express the very nature of the project
> and not just a catchphrase. It is my interpretation that "Tomcat
> Probe" qualifies as "customary description of work" and therefore does
> not violate Apache License and I will stand by this until I hear an
> official position of ASF on this matter.
> </quote>
>
> Finally, is this the right list to be having this discussion given
> that it is publicly archived? If not, where is?
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice on this.
>
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
> only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
> constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
> and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
> official ASF policies and documents.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
> only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
> constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
> and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
> official ASF policies and documents.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
--
Jesse Kuhnert
Tacos/Tapestry, team member/developer
Open source based consulting work centered around
dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind. http://opennotion.com
RE: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>.
I suggest we take this to legal-internal.
/Larry
Lawrence Rosen
Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (www.rosenlaw.com)
Stanford University, Lecturer in Law
3001 King Ranch Road, Ukiah, CA 95482
707-485-1242 * fax: 707-485-1243
Author of "Open Source Licensing: Software Freedom and
Intellectual Property Law" (Prentice Hall 2004)
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Thomas [mailto:markt@apache.org]
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:11 PM
To: lrosen@rosenlaw.com
Cc: legal-discuss@apache.org
Subject: Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Lawrence Rosen wrote:
>>Upayavira wrote:
>>
>>>But surely 'Tomcat' is also an Apache trademark. It would, to my mind,
>>>be valid to describe it as "XXX Probe for Apache Tomcat", but not Tomcat
>>>Probe.
>>>
>>
>>This is what I am thinking. Can any one give a more definitive opinion
>>one way or the other?
>
>
> If we filed a US registration we'd be able to answer that question
> precisely. However, in our somewhat informal state of common law
trademark,
> which is all we have, it isn't clear to me what the "goods" are that are
in
> association with the "Tomcat" mark. That's one other advantage of
> registration.
>
> I suggest, though, that "Tomcat Probe software" would be an infringement
of
> our common law trademark in "Tomcat software." We shouldn't acquiesce in
> their use.
>
> /Larry
The Tomcat PMC has been in contact with the author of "Tomcat Probe"
and he is unwilling to change the name without an official Apache
position that this is a trademark infringement.
Where do I go to get such a statement? Is Larry's statement above it?
If it is, I am concerned about the use of the phrase "I suggest...".
IANAL. Is this just lawyer speak for "In my opinion x, but nothing is
certain unless you go to court and ask a judge."?
For the legally minded the author's position is:
<quote>
* "Tomcat Probe" is a phrase to express the very nature of the project
and not just a catchphrase. It is my interpretation that "Tomcat
Probe" qualifies as "customary description of work" and therefore does
not violate Apache License and I will stand by this until I hear an
official position of ASF on this matter.
</quote>
Finally, is this the right list to be having this discussion given
that it is publicly archived? If not, where is?
Thanks in advance for any advice on this.
Mark
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Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
Lawrence Rosen wrote:
>>Upayavira wrote:
>>
>>>But surely 'Tomcat' is also an Apache trademark. It would, to my mind,
>>>be valid to describe it as "XXX Probe for Apache Tomcat", but not Tomcat
>>>Probe.
>>>
>>
>>This is what I am thinking. Can any one give a more definitive opinion
>>one way or the other?
>
>
> If we filed a US registration we'd be able to answer that question
> precisely. However, in our somewhat informal state of common law trademark,
> which is all we have, it isn't clear to me what the "goods" are that are in
> association with the "Tomcat" mark. That's one other advantage of
> registration.
>
> I suggest, though, that "Tomcat Probe software" would be an infringement of
> our common law trademark in "Tomcat software." We shouldn't acquiesce in
> their use.
>
> /Larry
The Tomcat PMC has been in contact with the author of "Tomcat Probe"
and he is unwilling to change the name without an official Apache
position that this is a trademark infringement.
Where do I go to get such a statement? Is Larry's statement above it?
If it is, I am concerned about the use of the phrase "I suggest...".
IANAL. Is this just lawyer speak for "In my opinion x, but nothing is
certain unless you go to court and ask a judge."?
For the legally minded the author's position is:
<quote>
* "Tomcat Probe" is a phrase to express the very nature of the project
and not just a catchphrase. It is my interpretation that "Tomcat
Probe" qualifies as "customary description of work" and therefore does
not violate Apache License and I will stand by this until I hear an
official position of ASF on this matter.
</quote>
Finally, is this the right list to be having this discussion given
that it is publicly archived? If not, where is?
Thanks in advance for any advice on this.
Mark
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RE: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>.
>Upayavira wrote:
>> But surely 'Tomcat' is also an Apache trademark. It would, to my mind,
> > be valid to describe it as "XXX Probe for Apache Tomcat", but not Tomcat
> > Probe.
> >
> This is what I am thinking. Can any one give a more definitive opinion
> one way or the other?
If we filed a US registration we'd be able to answer that question
precisely. However, in our somewhat informal state of common law trademark,
which is all we have, it isn't clear to me what the "goods" are that are in
association with the "Tomcat" mark. That's one other advantage of
registration.
I suggest, though, that "Tomcat Probe software" would be an infringement of
our common law trademark in "Tomcat software." We shouldn't acquiesce in
their use.
/Larry
Lawrence Rosen
Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (www.rosenlaw.com)
Stanford University, Lecturer in Law
3001 King Ranch Road, Ukiah, CA 95482
707-485-1242 * fax: 707-485-1243
Author of "Open Source Licensing: Software Freedom and
Intellectual Property Law" (Prentice Hall 2004)
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Thomas [mailto:markt@apache.org]
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 1:05 PM
To: legal-discuss@apache.org
Subject: Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Upayavira wrote:
> But surely 'Tomcat' is also an Apache trademark. It would, to my mind,
> be valid to describe it as "XXX Probe for Apache Tomcat", but not Tomcat
> Probe.
>
> But again, IANAL.
>
> Upayavira
This is what I am thinking. Can any one give a more definitive opinion
one way or the other?
Mark
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Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
Upayavira wrote:
> But surely 'Tomcat' is also an Apache trademark. It would, to my mind,
> be valid to describe it as "XXX Probe for Apache Tomcat", but not Tomcat
> Probe.
>
> But again, IANAL.
>
> Upayavira
This is what I am thinking. Can any one give a more definitive opinion
one way or the other?
Mark
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Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@upaya.co.uk>.
Rory Winston wrote:
> Mark
>
> IANAL either, but I think you may be a bit too quick off the mark here.
> If it was something like "Apache Tomcat Probe" then I would agree with
> you. Still, the experts will have the definitive word on the matter.
But surely 'Tomcat' is also an Apache trademark. It would, to my mind,
be valid to describe it as "XXX Probe for Apache Tomcat", but not Tomcat
Probe.
But again, IANAL.
Upayavira
> Mark Thomas wrote:
>
>> Just seen the post below on the Tomcat users lists. Is the use of
>> "Tomcat" in the product's name a breach of our license terms?
>> Specifically:
>>
>> 6. Trademarks. This License does not grant permission to use the trade
>> names, trademarks, service marks, or product names of the Licensor,
>> except as required for reasonable and customary use in describing
>> the origin of the Work and reproducing the content of the NOTICE
>> file.
>>
>>
>> IANAL but this looks to be in breach to me. I would be happy to be
>> proved wrong though...
>>
>> If it is a breach, I assume a quiet word is in order. If so, who would
>> normally do this? I am happy to as a member of the Tomcat community
>> but if there is a set procedure I am equally happy to go with that.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Vlad.Ilyschenko@informa.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Fellow Tomcat users,
>>>
>>> I am pleased to announce version 1.0.8b of TomcatProbe. This release
>>> features support for Oracle datasources, new session attribute browser
>>> view, user interface improvements and bug fixes.
>>>
>>> Full release note can be found here:
>>> http://www.tomcatprobe.org/d/latest.shtml
>>>
>>> The official home page of Tomcat probe is http://www.tomcatprobe.org
>>>
>>> Live demo site: http://www.tomcatprobelive.com (u:demo, p:demo)
>>>
>>> I have also created a little how-to on Oracle datasource configuration
>>> for Tomcat just because I have had hard time working it out.
>>> http://www.tomcatprobe.org/d/oracle.shtml
>>>
>>> Any questions please do ask!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ********************************************************************************
>>>
>>> The information contained in this email message may be confidential.
>>> If you are not the intended recipient, any use, interference with,
>>> disclosure or copying of this material is unauthorised and
>>> prohibited. Although this message and any attachments are believed to
>>> be free of viruses, no responsibility is accepted by Informa for any
>>> loss or damage arising in any way from receipt or use thereof.
>>> Messages to and from the company are monitored for operational
>>> reasons and in accordance with lawful business practices. If you have
>>> received this message in error, please notify us by return and delete
>>> the message and any attachments. Further enquiries/returns can be
>>> sent to postmaster@informa.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tomcat.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Rory Winston <rw...@eircom.net>.
Mark
IANAL either, but I think you may be a bit too quick off the mark here.
If it was something like "Apache Tomcat Probe" then I would agree with
you. Still, the experts will have the definitive word on the matter.
R
Mark Thomas wrote:
>Just seen the post below on the Tomcat users lists. Is the use of
>"Tomcat" in the product's name a breach of our license terms?
>Specifically:
>
>6. Trademarks. This License does not grant permission to use the trade
> names, trademarks, service marks, or product names of the Licensor,
> except as required for reasonable and customary use in describing
> the origin of the Work and reproducing the content of the NOTICE
> file.
>
>
>IANAL but this looks to be in breach to me. I would be happy to be
>proved wrong though...
>
>If it is a breach, I assume a quiet word is in order. If so, who would
>normally do this? I am happy to as a member of the Tomcat community
>but if there is a set procedure I am equally happy to go with that.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mark
>
>Vlad.Ilyschenko@informa.com wrote:
>
>
>>Fellow Tomcat users,
>>
>>I am pleased to announce version 1.0.8b of TomcatProbe. This release
>>features support for Oracle datasources, new session attribute browser
>>view, user interface improvements and bug fixes.
>>
>>Full release note can be found here:
>>http://www.tomcatprobe.org/d/latest.shtml
>>
>>The official home page of Tomcat probe is http://www.tomcatprobe.org
>>
>>Live demo site: http://www.tomcatprobelive.com (u:demo, p:demo)
>>
>>I have also created a little how-to on Oracle datasource configuration
>>for Tomcat just because I have had hard time working it out.
>>http://www.tomcatprobe.org/d/oracle.shtml
>>
>>Any questions please do ask!
>>
>>
>>
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