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Posted to users@spamassassin.apache.org by Matt Kettler <mk...@evi-inc.com> on 2006/01/30 21:08:00 UTC
Re: RAZOR or DCC or Pyzor
Vahric MUHTARYAN wrote:
> I think that DCC and RAZOR will improve spam finding , right
> ? at this moment I know that querying will take a time but How many
> spamcleanhouse we should use ?
That's up to you. I run both DCC and razor with no trouble.
> - As for me DCC / RAZOR can be better thing then bayes rules
> then why people fighting for setting bayes , instead of this informing
> spams to DCC/Pyzor and Razor better I guess ?
I don't know about that. I find both tools to be significantly less accurate
than a well trained bayes system. Particularly DCC.
> - I know that there was a DCC server , any possibility to
> install Razor2 server !
No.. Razor2's server side is 100% pure commercial closed-source and only
operated by cloudmark.
You could possibly license it from cloudmark, but unless you're REALLY huge (ie:
AOL sized) and offered a large sum of money (a few million USD) I don't think
they'd consider it. They're really not in the business of sharing their server side.
Also there are restrictions on running a DCC server. You must participate in the
global flood to run your own unless you get a commercial license. See the DCC
license for the full details.
> - in DCC docs said that DCC mark mails like a SPAM , any
> possibility to adding point to spamassassin because if it's sure then
> makine spam check with spamassassin will be unnecessary !
I'd not trust DCC's markings any further than I can throw it. DCC marks
everything posted to bugtraq and a large number of other technical mailings.
Remember.. DCC is NOT a spam detector, it's a "bulk" detector. Any large volume
mailing should theoretically be tagged by it regardless of source or spam vs
nonspam.
You can fix a lot of that with DCC whitelists, but you can't be sure you have
them all covered.
Let SA use DCC as a scored add-on and be done with it, it's much safer than
explicitly trusting DCC.
Re: RAZOR or DCC or Pyzor
Posted by Matt Kettler <mk...@evi-inc.com>.
Vahric MUHTARYAN wrote:
> Thank you :)
>
> I will learn and also inform you after talk with Cloudmark !
I suspect such contract terms are private.. If you do get anything useful back
from them, please make sure it's OK to share them before reposting.
That said, if they do agree, please do share!
RE: RAZOR or DCC or Pyzor
Posted by Vahric MUHTARYAN <va...@doruk.net.tr>.
Thank you :)
I will learn and also inform you after talk with Cloudmark !
Thanks
Vahric
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Kettler [mailto:mkettler@evi-inc.com]
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 11:02 PM
To: Vahric MUHTARYAN
Cc: users@spamassassin.apache.org
Subject: Re: RAZOR or DCC or Pyzor
Vahric MUHTARYAN wrote:
> Okey clear !
>
> And Do you have license for Razor2 because you said that its for who
> has a huge system or You can use it for a shot time !
Merely using the razor client generally doesn't require such negotiations or
money.
However, they do reserve the right to charge fees of those sites that are
producing a lot of queries to their site. See SERVICE_POLICY in:
http://razor.sourceforge.net/docs/
my previous mention of large sites and large sums of money was in reference
to
running your own razor server. That would require negotiating licensing, and
you'd have to do that with cloudmark directly. I was merely pointing out
that
it's impractical to run your own razor servers unless you're huge and have
lots
of money.
I guess a better answer would have been "no you can't run your own razor
server". However that ignores the fact that cloudmark does license out their
server technology to some third parties. If you really want to know what it
costs, you'd have to ask cloudmark. However I don't think they license
private
razor servers to small shops.. I could be wrong, but I don't think they do.
They were at one time considering making a smaller-site "caching" razor
server,
which still queried the main servers but kept local copies of hit results. I
don't know if that went anywhere.
Re: RAZOR or DCC or Pyzor
Posted by Matt Kettler <mk...@evi-inc.com>.
Vahric MUHTARYAN wrote:
> Okey clear !
>
> And Do you have license for Razor2 because you said that its for who
> has a huge system or You can use it for a shot time !
Merely using the razor client generally doesn't require such negotiations or money.
However, they do reserve the right to charge fees of those sites that are
producing a lot of queries to their site. See SERVICE_POLICY in:
http://razor.sourceforge.net/docs/
my previous mention of large sites and large sums of money was in reference to
running your own razor server. That would require negotiating licensing, and
you'd have to do that with cloudmark directly. I was merely pointing out that
it's impractical to run your own razor servers unless you're huge and have lots
of money.
I guess a better answer would have been "no you can't run your own razor
server". However that ignores the fact that cloudmark does license out their
server technology to some third parties. If you really want to know what it
costs, you'd have to ask cloudmark. However I don't think they license private
razor servers to small shops.. I could be wrong, but I don't think they do.
They were at one time considering making a smaller-site "caching" razor server,
which still queried the main servers but kept local copies of hit results. I
don't know if that went anywhere.
RE: RAZOR or DCC or Pyzor
Posted by Vahric MUHTARYAN <va...@doruk.net.tr>.
Okey clear !
And Do you have license for Razor2 because you said that its for who
has a huge system or You can use it for a shot time !
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Kettler [mailto:mkettler@evi-inc.com]
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 10:47 PM
To: Vahric MUHTARYAN
Cc: users@spamassassin.apache.org
Subject: Re: RAZOR or DCC or Pyzor
Vahric MUHTARYAN wrote:
> Hi ,
>
> I will check DCC and Razor2 licensing sir, thanks for informations ...
> And I understand from your chart what you mean ;)
>
> Then you said that " I ran DCC and razor " which razor are you running ?
is
> it razor1 sorry I don't understand ...
Razor 1?? Does that even work anymore? I know SA stopped supporting it a
long
time ago.
I'm using Razor 2.77.
>
> Sorry but it's not clear about balk and spam , also spammers is bulk
mailer
> isn't it ?
Spammers are bulk mailers, but not all bulk mailers are spammers.
Bulk = sent to lots of people.
Not all mail sent to lots of people is spam. For example, posts to the
bugtraq
mailing list get sent to tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of
people.
Are they spam? No, because it's a subscriber list.
Are they bulk? Yes, because it's been sent to many people.
DCC only cares if the message is bulk or not. All messages received by your
system are reported to DCC automatically. By querying DCC you are reporting
the
message, and DCC lists all the message with really high counts.
DCC listing does not mean it's been reported as spam by a lot of people,
just
that a lot of people who use DCC received the same message.
Re: RAZOR or DCC or Pyzor
Posted by Matt Kettler <mk...@evi-inc.com>.
Vahric MUHTARYAN wrote:
> Hi ,
>
> I will check DCC and Razor2 licensing sir, thanks for informations ...
> And I understand from your chart what you mean ;)
>
> Then you said that " I ran DCC and razor " which razor are you running ? is
> it razor1 sorry I don't understand ...
Razor 1?? Does that even work anymore? I know SA stopped supporting it a long
time ago.
I'm using Razor 2.77.
>
> Sorry but it's not clear about balk and spam , also spammers is bulk mailer
> isn't it ?
Spammers are bulk mailers, but not all bulk mailers are spammers.
Bulk = sent to lots of people.
Not all mail sent to lots of people is spam. For example, posts to the bugtraq
mailing list get sent to tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people.
Are they spam? No, because it's a subscriber list.
Are they bulk? Yes, because it's been sent to many people.
DCC only cares if the message is bulk or not. All messages received by your
system are reported to DCC automatically. By querying DCC you are reporting the
message, and DCC lists all the message with really high counts.
DCC listing does not mean it's been reported as spam by a lot of people, just
that a lot of people who use DCC received the same message.
Re: RAZOR or DCC or Pyzor
Posted by Jim Maul <jm...@elih.org>.
Vahric MUHTARYAN wrote:
> Hi ,
>
> I will check DCC and Razor2 licensing sir, thanks for informations ...
> And I understand from your chart what you mean ;)
>
> Then you said that " I ran DCC and razor " which razor are you running ? is
> it razor1 sorry I don't understand ...
Most likely razor2. I dont know anyone that is running any other version.
>
> Sorry but it's not clear about balk and spam , also spammers is bulk mailer
> isn't it ?
>
Spam is (usually) bulk mailing, but bulk mailing is not always spam!
-Jim
RE: RAZOR or DCC or Pyzor
Posted by Vahric MUHTARYAN <va...@doruk.net.tr>.
Hi ,
I will check DCC and Razor2 licensing sir, thanks for informations ...
And I understand from your chart what you mean ;)
Then you said that " I ran DCC and razor " which razor are you running ? is
it razor1 sorry I don't understand ...
Sorry but it's not clear about balk and spam , also spammers is bulk mailer
isn't it ?
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Kettler [mailto:mkettler@evi-inc.com]
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 10:08 PM
To: Vahric MUHTARYAN
Cc: users@spamassassin.apache.org
Subject: Re: RAZOR or DCC or Pyzor
Vahric MUHTARYAN wrote:
> I think that DCC and RAZOR will improve spam finding , right
> ? at this moment I know that querying will take a time but How many
> spamcleanhouse we should use ?
That's up to you. I run both DCC and razor with no trouble.
> - As for me DCC / RAZOR can be better thing then bayes rules
> then why people fighting for setting bayes , instead of this informing
> spams to DCC/Pyzor and Razor better I guess ?
I don't know about that. I find both tools to be significantly less accurate
than a well trained bayes system. Particularly DCC.
> - I know that there was a DCC server , any possibility to
> install Razor2 server !
No.. Razor2's server side is 100% pure commercial closed-source and only
operated by cloudmark.
You could possibly license it from cloudmark, but unless you're REALLY huge
(ie:
AOL sized) and offered a large sum of money (a few million USD) I don't
think
they'd consider it. They're really not in the business of sharing their
server side.
Also there are restrictions on running a DCC server. You must participate in
the
global flood to run your own unless you get a commercial license. See the
DCC
license for the full details.
> - in DCC docs said that DCC mark mails like a SPAM , any
> possibility to adding point to spamassassin because if it's sure then
> makine spam check with spamassassin will be unnecessary !
I'd not trust DCC's markings any further than I can throw it. DCC marks
everything posted to bugtraq and a large number of other technical mailings.
Remember.. DCC is NOT a spam detector, it's a "bulk" detector. Any large
volume
mailing should theoretically be tagged by it regardless of source or spam vs
nonspam.
You can fix a lot of that with DCC whitelists, but you can't be sure you
have
them all covered.
Let SA use DCC as a scored add-on and be done with it, it's much safer than
explicitly trusting DCC.