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Posted to dev@trafodion.apache.org by Roberta Marton <ro...@esgyn.com> on 2016/06/07 22:31:06 UTC
[DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
We entered Apache Incubation May 24, 2015 so we have been incubating for
about a year.
We have completed 2 major releases and there is a patch release in progress.
Once the patch release completes, we support:
- Source tar files
- Binary tar files
- Distribution support for vanilla Apache, Hortonworks, and
Cloudera
- Apache web site and wiki
- Up to date documentation
With the patch release, we believe all licensing issues have been addressed.
So the next decision is whether we should apply for top level project
status.
The Trafodion PMC discussed this topic and the impression is that Trafodion
is doing well in many aspects - it has a large community, gets a lot of
contributions (code, documentation, testing, etc.) and has a vibrant
conversation going on in the email lists, particularly on the development
side. The main problem is that still too many folks are working for the
same company, Esgyn. So, in terms of raw numbers we are good, but we might
not be diverse enough as measured by number of independent organizations.
What does everyone in the dev group think? If we have to increase our
diversity, how can this be done? Given the complexity of Trafodion it is
not easy for a new contributor to become a committer without a lengthy
learning curve.
Roberta
Re: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
Finally I have had a moment to gather my thoughts on the subject of (lack
of) diversity and Trafodion project. Forgive me for coming late to this
table.
I am inclined to believe that we, as the Trafodion community, should not
fret to much on having the majority of the priviliged contributors (those
with a mere commit privilege and those in the - intended - PPMC). That
situation exists today, yes. But I have experienced a welcoming community,
and I feel confident that will not change in a future where more adopters
will contribute back with insights, code improvements and questions. A
future that will bring us the diversity that this project needs and its
community wants.
For sure, the discussion in the general ml of the incubator will be more on
the subject of diversity than about the skills to do releases. Regarding
the releases this community has shown that not just one has done or could
do it.
But regarding the subject of diversity we must stay true to the ASF
principles and communicate so. Not only now as a podling during our
incubation phase, but also after our graduation. Not only we need to
communicate this to potential adopters and contributors, but also to those
who have binding votes in the incubator.
I have seen podlings graduate to become a TLP within the ASF, with the
majority of privileged contributors being affiliated with one company.
While not desirable, we can take heart from that while staying the course
of bringing more diversity in to our contributor base and at the same time
requesting a vote on our graduation.
Just my 2 cents.
Pierre Smits
ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services
OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 6:42 AM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:39 PM, Roberta Marton <ro...@esgyn.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for all your replies.
> > The basic feeling I see is:
> > "Trafodion is actively working on getting new non Esgyn committers but to
> > get people's interest and get them to follow with contributions is
> tough."
> >
> > But this doesn't indicate whether we should or should not try for TLP.
> > Let's make it more simple:
> >
> > +1 = discussion over - go for TLP at this time
> > 0 = not sure, discuss some more
> > -1 = wait until we get more non Esgyn committers or at least until we get
> > more contributors that have the potential to be committers.
> >
> >
> -1 We need to wait until we have more non-Esgyn committers and more
> demonstrated interest/users of the project beyond Esgyn-usage. Apache
> Incubator wants to see the green shoots of a developing community around a
> project before they'll let it out of incubator. This is what is considered
> vital to an Apache project. Code less so.
>
>
>
> > Something to keep in mind, even if we decide to go for TLP, we might get
> > turned down by the IPMC.
> >
>
> Yeah. I think this is what will happen. The fear is the project will go
> dormant should something happen to Esgyn.
>
> St.Ack
>
>
>
>
> > To get a feel for IPMC's thoughts, our mentor Stack sent out a message
> to
> > the general incubator list with the following request
> >
> > "We'd like to solicit feedback on whether the Trafodiion project is ready
> > to
> > go TLP. I am the project Champion writing on behalf of the project PMC.
> >
> > Our clutch report is nice and healthy [2]. Our up-to-date status page can
> > be found here [1.]. Development is brisk. We've made two releases out of
> > incubator up to this (with another up for vote). We have taken on new
> > committers since we entered incubation about a year ago.
> >
> > The main downside that we see is that we have few users -- going by
> traffic
> > up on the mailing list -- and that near all committers are from a single
> > company, Esgyn (Three committers are not Esgyn employees)."
> >
> > There we a few replies, many of them requesting more details. However
> > there
> > was one from John Ament ->
> >
> >
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201606.mbox/%3CCAOqetn-Gm%2BDWZ3PTXtV3wk9npiGxz0AX3q%2BpbkLkRvpYT_kuyw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> >
> > "I think my concern is around community growth based on what's being
> > described. I can understand the company focusing on this technology, but
> > we want a diverse community. If there are any up coming committers who
> are
> > not company employees that would be great to see. Otherwise there's high
> > reliance on salaried employees still.
> >
> > John"
> >
> > Roberta
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Carol Pearson [mailto:carol.pearson234@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 3:14 AM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I look forward to the discussion on the general list - I hope we get some
> > great feedback from that, including specific guidance if someone thinks
> > we're not ready. If you don't try... you don't know....
> >
> > --Carol P.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > Email: carol.pearson234@gmail.com
> > Twitter: @CarolP222
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > IMO, this project is ready for TLP application.
> > >
> > > As a matter of fact, I suspect that TLP will help attract contributors
> > > spanning from users to coders and all other forms of contributors.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Dave Birdsall
> > > <da...@esgyn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Regarding getting more contributors:
> > > >
> > > > Seems like there are two issues. One is overcoming the learning
> > > > curve of contributing, as you mentioned; the other is finding people
> > > > who would be motivated to contribute to this particular project.
> > > >
> > > > I think we can address the first with more tutorials on our web site
> > > and/or
> > > > wiki. Already there is an excellent tutorial on UDFs. Contributing
> > > > in the engine is a more complicated endeavor, but perhaps with
> > > > appropriate internal documentation and descriptions of debugging
> > > > tools we can lower the bar.
> > > >
> > > > The second issue is more difficult. There are many ways to
> > > > contribute, of course. UDFs has been mentioned in the past. Perhaps
> > > > we can cultivate a culture of users contributing some of their more
> > > > interesting UDFs.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Roberta Marton [mailto:roberta.marton@esgyn.com]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 3:31 PM
> > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > Subject: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
> > > >
> > > > We entered Apache Incubation May 24, 2015 so we have been
> > > > incubating for about a year.
> > > >
> > > > We have completed 2 major releases and there is a patch release in
> > > > progress.
> > > >
> > > > Once the patch release completes, we support:
> > > >
> > > > - Source tar files
> > > >
> > > > - Binary tar files
> > > >
> > > > - Distribution support for vanilla Apache, Hortonworks, and
> > > > Cloudera
> > > >
> > > > - Apache web site and wiki
> > > >
> > > > - Up to date documentation
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > With the patch release, we believe all licensing issues have been
> > > > addressed.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So the next decision is whether we should apply for top level
> > > > project status.
> > > >
> > > > The Trafodion PMC discussed this topic and the impression is that
> > > Trafodion
> > > > is doing well in many aspects - it has a large community, gets a lot
> > > > of contributions (code, documentation, testing, etc.) and has a
> > > > vibrant conversation going on in the email lists, particularly on
> > > > the development side. The main problem is that still too many folks
> > > > are working for the same company, Esgyn. So, in terms of raw numbers
> > > > we are good, but we might not be diverse enough as measured by
> > > > number of independent organizations.
> > > >
> > > > What does everyone in the dev group think? If we have to increase
> > > > our diversity, how can this be done? Given the complexity of
> > > > Trafodion it is not easy for a new contributor to become a committer
> > > > without a lengthy
> > > learning
> > > > curve.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Roberta
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> > >
> >
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
Posted by Stack <st...@duboce.net>.
On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 3:39 PM, Roberta Marton <ro...@esgyn.com>
wrote:
> Thanks for all your replies.
> The basic feeling I see is:
> "Trafodion is actively working on getting new non Esgyn committers but to
> get people's interest and get them to follow with contributions is tough."
>
> But this doesn't indicate whether we should or should not try for TLP.
> Let's make it more simple:
>
> +1 = discussion over - go for TLP at this time
> 0 = not sure, discuss some more
> -1 = wait until we get more non Esgyn committers or at least until we get
> more contributors that have the potential to be committers.
>
>
-1 We need to wait until we have more non-Esgyn committers and more
demonstrated interest/users of the project beyond Esgyn-usage. Apache
Incubator wants to see the green shoots of a developing community around a
project before they'll let it out of incubator. This is what is considered
vital to an Apache project. Code less so.
> Something to keep in mind, even if we decide to go for TLP, we might get
> turned down by the IPMC.
>
Yeah. I think this is what will happen. The fear is the project will go
dormant should something happen to Esgyn.
St.Ack
> To get a feel for IPMC's thoughts, our mentor Stack sent out a message to
> the general incubator list with the following request
>
> "We'd like to solicit feedback on whether the Trafodiion project is ready
> to
> go TLP. I am the project Champion writing on behalf of the project PMC.
>
> Our clutch report is nice and healthy [2]. Our up-to-date status page can
> be found here [1.]. Development is brisk. We've made two releases out of
> incubator up to this (with another up for vote). We have taken on new
> committers since we entered incubation about a year ago.
>
> The main downside that we see is that we have few users -- going by traffic
> up on the mailing list -- and that near all committers are from a single
> company, Esgyn (Three committers are not Esgyn employees)."
>
> There we a few replies, many of them requesting more details. However
> there
> was one from John Ament ->
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201606.mbox/%3CCAOqetn-Gm%2BDWZ3PTXtV3wk9npiGxz0AX3q%2BpbkLkRvpYT_kuyw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>
> "I think my concern is around community growth based on what's being
> described. I can understand the company focusing on this technology, but
> we want a diverse community. If there are any up coming committers who are
> not company employees that would be great to see. Otherwise there's high
> reliance on salaried employees still.
>
> John"
>
> Roberta
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carol Pearson [mailto:carol.pearson234@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 3:14 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
>
> Hi,
>
> I look forward to the discussion on the general list - I hope we get some
> great feedback from that, including specific guidance if someone thinks
> we're not ready. If you don't try... you don't know....
>
> --Carol P.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Email: carol.pearson234@gmail.com
> Twitter: @CarolP222
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > IMO, this project is ready for TLP application.
> >
> > As a matter of fact, I suspect that TLP will help attract contributors
> > spanning from users to coders and all other forms of contributors.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Dave Birdsall
> > <da...@esgyn.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Regarding getting more contributors:
> > >
> > > Seems like there are two issues. One is overcoming the learning
> > > curve of contributing, as you mentioned; the other is finding people
> > > who would be motivated to contribute to this particular project.
> > >
> > > I think we can address the first with more tutorials on our web site
> > and/or
> > > wiki. Already there is an excellent tutorial on UDFs. Contributing
> > > in the engine is a more complicated endeavor, but perhaps with
> > > appropriate internal documentation and descriptions of debugging
> > > tools we can lower the bar.
> > >
> > > The second issue is more difficult. There are many ways to
> > > contribute, of course. UDFs has been mentioned in the past. Perhaps
> > > we can cultivate a culture of users contributing some of their more
> > > interesting UDFs.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Roberta Marton [mailto:roberta.marton@esgyn.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 3:31 PM
> > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > Subject: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
> > >
> > > We entered Apache Incubation May 24, 2015 so we have been
> > > incubating for about a year.
> > >
> > > We have completed 2 major releases and there is a patch release in
> > > progress.
> > >
> > > Once the patch release completes, we support:
> > >
> > > - Source tar files
> > >
> > > - Binary tar files
> > >
> > > - Distribution support for vanilla Apache, Hortonworks, and
> > > Cloudera
> > >
> > > - Apache web site and wiki
> > >
> > > - Up to date documentation
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > With the patch release, we believe all licensing issues have been
> > > addressed.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So the next decision is whether we should apply for top level
> > > project status.
> > >
> > > The Trafodion PMC discussed this topic and the impression is that
> > Trafodion
> > > is doing well in many aspects - it has a large community, gets a lot
> > > of contributions (code, documentation, testing, etc.) and has a
> > > vibrant conversation going on in the email lists, particularly on
> > > the development side. The main problem is that still too many folks
> > > are working for the same company, Esgyn. So, in terms of raw numbers
> > > we are good, but we might not be diverse enough as measured by
> > > number of independent organizations.
> > >
> > > What does everyone in the dev group think? If we have to increase
> > > our diversity, how can this be done? Given the complexity of
> > > Trafodion it is not easy for a new contributor to become a committer
> > > without a lengthy
> > learning
> > > curve.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Roberta
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> >
>
RE: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
Posted by "Jin, Jian (Seth)" <Ji...@esgyn.cn>.
We have delivered 2 major releases, this is significant progress for Trafodion, I would like to have +1.
Br,
Seth
-----Original Message-----
From: Yang, Yang (Felix) [mailto:yang.yang@esgyn.cn]
Sent: 2016年6月14日 9:38
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
+1
-----Original Message-----
From: Gunnar Tapper [mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 8:02 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
+1
On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 4:39 PM, Roberta Marton <ro...@esgyn.com>
wrote:
> Thanks for all your replies.
> The basic feeling I see is:
> "Trafodion is actively working on getting new non Esgyn committers but
> to get people's interest and get them to follow with contributions is tough."
>
> But this doesn't indicate whether we should or should not try for TLP.
> Let's make it more simple:
>
> +1 = discussion over - go for TLP at this time
> 0 = not sure, discuss some more
> -1 = wait until we get more non Esgyn committers or at least until we
> get more contributors that have the potential to be committers.
>
> Something to keep in mind, even if we decide to go for TLP, we might
> get turned down by the IPMC.
> To get a feel for IPMC's thoughts, our mentor Stack sent out a
> message to the general incubator list with the following request
>
> "We'd like to solicit feedback on whether the Trafodiion project is
> ready to go TLP. I am the project Champion writing on behalf of the
> project PMC.
>
> Our clutch report is nice and healthy [2]. Our up-to-date status page
> can be found here [1.]. Development is brisk. We've made two releases
> out of incubator up to this (with another up for vote). We have taken
> on new committers since we entered incubation about a year ago.
>
> The main downside that we see is that we have few users -- going by
> traffic up on the mailing list -- and that near all committers are
> from a single company, Esgyn (Three committers are not Esgyn employees)."
>
> There we a few replies, many of them requesting more details. However
> there was one from John Ament ->
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201606.mbox
> /%3CCAOqetn-Gm%2BDWZ3PTXtV3wk9npiGxz0AX3q%2BpbkLkRvpYT_kuyw%40mail.gma
> il.com%3E
>
> "I think my concern is around community growth based on what's being
> described. I can understand the company focusing on this technology,
> but we want a diverse community. If there are any up coming
> committers who are not company employees that would be great to see.
> Otherwise there's high reliance on salaried employees still.
>
> John"
>
> Roberta
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carol Pearson [mailto:carol.pearson234@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 3:14 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
>
> Hi,
>
> I look forward to the discussion on the general list - I hope we get
> some great feedback from that, including specific guidance if someone
> thinks we're not ready. If you don't try... you don't know....
>
> --Carol P.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Email: carol.pearson234@gmail.com
> Twitter: @CarolP222
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Gunnar Tapper
> <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > IMO, this project is ready for TLP application.
> >
> > As a matter of fact, I suspect that TLP will help attract
> > contributors spanning from users to coders and all other forms of contributors.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Dave Birdsall
> > <da...@esgyn.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Regarding getting more contributors:
> > >
> > > Seems like there are two issues. One is overcoming the learning
> > > curve of contributing, as you mentioned; the other is finding
> > > people who would be motivated to contribute to this particular project.
> > >
> > > I think we can address the first with more tutorials on our web
> > > site
> > and/or
> > > wiki. Already there is an excellent tutorial on UDFs. Contributing
> > > in the engine is a more complicated endeavor, but perhaps with
> > > appropriate internal documentation and descriptions of debugging
> > > tools we can lower the bar.
> > >
> > > The second issue is more difficult. There are many ways to
> > > contribute, of course. UDFs has been mentioned in the past.
> > > Perhaps we can cultivate a culture of users contributing some of
> > > their more interesting UDFs.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Roberta Marton [mailto:roberta.marton@esgyn.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 3:31 PM
> > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > Subject: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
> > >
> > > We entered Apache Incubation May 24, 2015 so we have been
> > > incubating for about a year.
> > >
> > > We have completed 2 major releases and there is a patch release in
> > > progress.
> > >
> > > Once the patch release completes, we support:
> > >
> > > - Source tar files
> > >
> > > - Binary tar files
> > >
> > > - Distribution support for vanilla Apache, Hortonworks, and
> > > Cloudera
> > >
> > > - Apache web site and wiki
> > >
> > > - Up to date documentation
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > With the patch release, we believe all licensing issues have been
> > > addressed.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So the next decision is whether we should apply for top level
> > > project status.
> > >
> > > The Trafodion PMC discussed this topic and the impression is that
> > Trafodion
> > > is doing well in many aspects - it has a large community, gets a
> > > lot of contributions (code, documentation, testing, etc.) and has
> > > a vibrant conversation going on in the email lists, particularly
> > > on the development side. The main problem is that still too many
> > > folks are working for the same company, Esgyn. So, in terms of raw
> > > numbers we are good, but we might not be diverse enough as
> > > measured by number of independent organizations.
> > >
> > > What does everyone in the dev group think? If we have to increase
> > > our diversity, how can this be done? Given the complexity of
> > > Trafodion it is not easy for a new contributor to become a
> > > committer without a lengthy
> > learning
> > > curve.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Roberta
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> >
>
--
Thanks,
Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
RE: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
Posted by "Yang, Yang (Felix)" <ya...@esgyn.cn>.
+1
-----Original Message-----
From: Gunnar Tapper [mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 8:02 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
+1
On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 4:39 PM, Roberta Marton <ro...@esgyn.com>
wrote:
> Thanks for all your replies.
> The basic feeling I see is:
> "Trafodion is actively working on getting new non Esgyn committers but
> to get people's interest and get them to follow with contributions is tough."
>
> But this doesn't indicate whether we should or should not try for TLP.
> Let's make it more simple:
>
> +1 = discussion over - go for TLP at this time
> 0 = not sure, discuss some more
> -1 = wait until we get more non Esgyn committers or at least until we
> get more contributors that have the potential to be committers.
>
> Something to keep in mind, even if we decide to go for TLP, we might
> get turned down by the IPMC.
> To get a feel for IPMC's thoughts, our mentor Stack sent out a
> message to the general incubator list with the following request
>
> "We'd like to solicit feedback on whether the Trafodiion project is
> ready to go TLP. I am the project Champion writing on behalf of the
> project PMC.
>
> Our clutch report is nice and healthy [2]. Our up-to-date status page
> can be found here [1.]. Development is brisk. We've made two releases
> out of incubator up to this (with another up for vote). We have taken
> on new committers since we entered incubation about a year ago.
>
> The main downside that we see is that we have few users -- going by
> traffic up on the mailing list -- and that near all committers are
> from a single company, Esgyn (Three committers are not Esgyn employees)."
>
> There we a few replies, many of them requesting more details. However
> there was one from John Ament ->
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201606.mbox
> /%3CCAOqetn-Gm%2BDWZ3PTXtV3wk9npiGxz0AX3q%2BpbkLkRvpYT_kuyw%40mail.gma
> il.com%3E
>
> "I think my concern is around community growth based on what's being
> described. I can understand the company focusing on this technology,
> but we want a diverse community. If there are any up coming
> committers who are not company employees that would be great to see.
> Otherwise there's high reliance on salaried employees still.
>
> John"
>
> Roberta
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carol Pearson [mailto:carol.pearson234@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 3:14 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
>
> Hi,
>
> I look forward to the discussion on the general list - I hope we get
> some great feedback from that, including specific guidance if someone
> thinks we're not ready. If you don't try... you don't know....
>
> --Carol P.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Email: carol.pearson234@gmail.com
> Twitter: @CarolP222
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Gunnar Tapper
> <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > IMO, this project is ready for TLP application.
> >
> > As a matter of fact, I suspect that TLP will help attract
> > contributors spanning from users to coders and all other forms of contributors.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Dave Birdsall
> > <da...@esgyn.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Regarding getting more contributors:
> > >
> > > Seems like there are two issues. One is overcoming the learning
> > > curve of contributing, as you mentioned; the other is finding
> > > people who would be motivated to contribute to this particular project.
> > >
> > > I think we can address the first with more tutorials on our web
> > > site
> > and/or
> > > wiki. Already there is an excellent tutorial on UDFs. Contributing
> > > in the engine is a more complicated endeavor, but perhaps with
> > > appropriate internal documentation and descriptions of debugging
> > > tools we can lower the bar.
> > >
> > > The second issue is more difficult. There are many ways to
> > > contribute, of course. UDFs has been mentioned in the past.
> > > Perhaps we can cultivate a culture of users contributing some of
> > > their more interesting UDFs.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Roberta Marton [mailto:roberta.marton@esgyn.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 3:31 PM
> > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > Subject: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
> > >
> > > We entered Apache Incubation May 24, 2015 so we have been
> > > incubating for about a year.
> > >
> > > We have completed 2 major releases and there is a patch release in
> > > progress.
> > >
> > > Once the patch release completes, we support:
> > >
> > > - Source tar files
> > >
> > > - Binary tar files
> > >
> > > - Distribution support for vanilla Apache, Hortonworks, and
> > > Cloudera
> > >
> > > - Apache web site and wiki
> > >
> > > - Up to date documentation
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > With the patch release, we believe all licensing issues have been
> > > addressed.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So the next decision is whether we should apply for top level
> > > project status.
> > >
> > > The Trafodion PMC discussed this topic and the impression is that
> > Trafodion
> > > is doing well in many aspects - it has a large community, gets a
> > > lot of contributions (code, documentation, testing, etc.) and has
> > > a vibrant conversation going on in the email lists, particularly
> > > on the development side. The main problem is that still too many
> > > folks are working for the same company, Esgyn. So, in terms of raw
> > > numbers we are good, but we might not be diverse enough as
> > > measured by number of independent organizations.
> > >
> > > What does everyone in the dev group think? If we have to increase
> > > our diversity, how can this be done? Given the complexity of
> > > Trafodion it is not easy for a new contributor to become a
> > > committer without a lengthy
> > learning
> > > curve.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Roberta
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> >
>
--
Thanks,
Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
Re: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
Posted by Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>.
+1
On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 4:39 PM, Roberta Marton <ro...@esgyn.com>
wrote:
> Thanks for all your replies.
> The basic feeling I see is:
> "Trafodion is actively working on getting new non Esgyn committers but to
> get people's interest and get them to follow with contributions is tough."
>
> But this doesn't indicate whether we should or should not try for TLP.
> Let's make it more simple:
>
> +1 = discussion over - go for TLP at this time
> 0 = not sure, discuss some more
> -1 = wait until we get more non Esgyn committers or at least until we get
> more contributors that have the potential to be committers.
>
> Something to keep in mind, even if we decide to go for TLP, we might get
> turned down by the IPMC.
> To get a feel for IPMC's thoughts, our mentor Stack sent out a message to
> the general incubator list with the following request
>
> "We'd like to solicit feedback on whether the Trafodiion project is ready
> to
> go TLP. I am the project Champion writing on behalf of the project PMC.
>
> Our clutch report is nice and healthy [2]. Our up-to-date status page can
> be found here [1.]. Development is brisk. We've made two releases out of
> incubator up to this (with another up for vote). We have taken on new
> committers since we entered incubation about a year ago.
>
> The main downside that we see is that we have few users -- going by traffic
> up on the mailing list -- and that near all committers are from a single
> company, Esgyn (Three committers are not Esgyn employees)."
>
> There we a few replies, many of them requesting more details. However
> there
> was one from John Ament ->
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201606.mbox/%3CCAOqetn-Gm%2BDWZ3PTXtV3wk9npiGxz0AX3q%2BpbkLkRvpYT_kuyw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>
> "I think my concern is around community growth based on what's being
> described. I can understand the company focusing on this technology, but
> we want a diverse community. If there are any up coming committers who are
> not company employees that would be great to see. Otherwise there's high
> reliance on salaried employees still.
>
> John"
>
> Roberta
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carol Pearson [mailto:carol.pearson234@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 3:14 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
>
> Hi,
>
> I look forward to the discussion on the general list - I hope we get some
> great feedback from that, including specific guidance if someone thinks
> we're not ready. If you don't try... you don't know....
>
> --Carol P.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Email: carol.pearson234@gmail.com
> Twitter: @CarolP222
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > IMO, this project is ready for TLP application.
> >
> > As a matter of fact, I suspect that TLP will help attract contributors
> > spanning from users to coders and all other forms of contributors.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Dave Birdsall
> > <da...@esgyn.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Regarding getting more contributors:
> > >
> > > Seems like there are two issues. One is overcoming the learning
> > > curve of contributing, as you mentioned; the other is finding people
> > > who would be motivated to contribute to this particular project.
> > >
> > > I think we can address the first with more tutorials on our web site
> > and/or
> > > wiki. Already there is an excellent tutorial on UDFs. Contributing
> > > in the engine is a more complicated endeavor, but perhaps with
> > > appropriate internal documentation and descriptions of debugging
> > > tools we can lower the bar.
> > >
> > > The second issue is more difficult. There are many ways to
> > > contribute, of course. UDFs has been mentioned in the past. Perhaps
> > > we can cultivate a culture of users contributing some of their more
> > > interesting UDFs.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Roberta Marton [mailto:roberta.marton@esgyn.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 3:31 PM
> > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > Subject: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
> > >
> > > We entered Apache Incubation May 24, 2015 so we have been
> > > incubating for about a year.
> > >
> > > We have completed 2 major releases and there is a patch release in
> > > progress.
> > >
> > > Once the patch release completes, we support:
> > >
> > > - Source tar files
> > >
> > > - Binary tar files
> > >
> > > - Distribution support for vanilla Apache, Hortonworks, and
> > > Cloudera
> > >
> > > - Apache web site and wiki
> > >
> > > - Up to date documentation
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > With the patch release, we believe all licensing issues have been
> > > addressed.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > So the next decision is whether we should apply for top level
> > > project status.
> > >
> > > The Trafodion PMC discussed this topic and the impression is that
> > Trafodion
> > > is doing well in many aspects - it has a large community, gets a lot
> > > of contributions (code, documentation, testing, etc.) and has a
> > > vibrant conversation going on in the email lists, particularly on
> > > the development side. The main problem is that still too many folks
> > > are working for the same company, Esgyn. So, in terms of raw numbers
> > > we are good, but we might not be diverse enough as measured by
> > > number of independent organizations.
> > >
> > > What does everyone in the dev group think? If we have to increase
> > > our diversity, how can this be done? Given the complexity of
> > > Trafodion it is not easy for a new contributor to become a committer
> > > without a lengthy
> > learning
> > > curve.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Roberta
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> >
>
--
Thanks,
Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
RE: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
Posted by Roberta Marton <ro...@esgyn.com>.
Thanks for all your replies.
The basic feeling I see is:
"Trafodion is actively working on getting new non Esgyn committers but to
get people's interest and get them to follow with contributions is tough."
But this doesn't indicate whether we should or should not try for TLP.
Let's make it more simple:
+1 = discussion over - go for TLP at this time
0 = not sure, discuss some more
-1 = wait until we get more non Esgyn committers or at least until we get
more contributors that have the potential to be committers.
Something to keep in mind, even if we decide to go for TLP, we might get
turned down by the IPMC.
To get a feel for IPMC's thoughts, our mentor Stack sent out a message to
the general incubator list with the following request
"We'd like to solicit feedback on whether the Trafodiion project is ready to
go TLP. I am the project Champion writing on behalf of the project PMC.
Our clutch report is nice and healthy [2]. Our up-to-date status page can
be found here [1.]. Development is brisk. We've made two releases out of
incubator up to this (with another up for vote). We have taken on new
committers since we entered incubation about a year ago.
The main downside that we see is that we have few users -- going by traffic
up on the mailing list -- and that near all committers are from a single
company, Esgyn (Three committers are not Esgyn employees)."
There we a few replies, many of them requesting more details. However there
was one from John Ament ->
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201606.mbox/%3CCAOqetn-Gm%2BDWZ3PTXtV3wk9npiGxz0AX3q%2BpbkLkRvpYT_kuyw%40mail.gmail.com%3E
"I think my concern is around community growth based on what's being
described. I can understand the company focusing on this technology, but
we want a diverse community. If there are any up coming committers who are
not company employees that would be great to see. Otherwise there's high
reliance on salaried employees still.
John"
Roberta
-----Original Message-----
From: Carol Pearson [mailto:carol.pearson234@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 3:14 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
Hi,
I look forward to the discussion on the general list - I hope we get some
great feedback from that, including specific guidance if someone thinks
we're not ready. If you don't try... you don't know....
--Carol P.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Email: carol.pearson234@gmail.com
Twitter: @CarolP222
---------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> IMO, this project is ready for TLP application.
>
> As a matter of fact, I suspect that TLP will help attract contributors
> spanning from users to coders and all other forms of contributors.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Dave Birdsall
> <da...@esgyn.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Regarding getting more contributors:
> >
> > Seems like there are two issues. One is overcoming the learning
> > curve of contributing, as you mentioned; the other is finding people
> > who would be motivated to contribute to this particular project.
> >
> > I think we can address the first with more tutorials on our web site
> and/or
> > wiki. Already there is an excellent tutorial on UDFs. Contributing
> > in the engine is a more complicated endeavor, but perhaps with
> > appropriate internal documentation and descriptions of debugging
> > tools we can lower the bar.
> >
> > The second issue is more difficult. There are many ways to
> > contribute, of course. UDFs has been mentioned in the past. Perhaps
> > we can cultivate a culture of users contributing some of their more
> > interesting UDFs.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Roberta Marton [mailto:roberta.marton@esgyn.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 3:31 PM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
> >
> > We entered Apache Incubation May 24, 2015 so we have been
> > incubating for about a year.
> >
> > We have completed 2 major releases and there is a patch release in
> > progress.
> >
> > Once the patch release completes, we support:
> >
> > - Source tar files
> >
> > - Binary tar files
> >
> > - Distribution support for vanilla Apache, Hortonworks, and
> > Cloudera
> >
> > - Apache web site and wiki
> >
> > - Up to date documentation
> >
> >
> >
> > With the patch release, we believe all licensing issues have been
> > addressed.
> >
> >
> >
> > So the next decision is whether we should apply for top level
> > project status.
> >
> > The Trafodion PMC discussed this topic and the impression is that
> Trafodion
> > is doing well in many aspects - it has a large community, gets a lot
> > of contributions (code, documentation, testing, etc.) and has a
> > vibrant conversation going on in the email lists, particularly on
> > the development side. The main problem is that still too many folks
> > are working for the same company, Esgyn. So, in terms of raw numbers
> > we are good, but we might not be diverse enough as measured by
> > number of independent organizations.
> >
> > What does everyone in the dev group think? If we have to increase
> > our diversity, how can this be done? Given the complexity of
> > Trafodion it is not easy for a new contributor to become a committer
> > without a lengthy
> learning
> > curve.
> >
> >
> >
> > Roberta
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
Posted by Carol Pearson <ca...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
I look forward to the discussion on the general list - I hope we get some
great feedback from that, including specific guidance if someone thinks
we're not ready. If you don't try... you don't know....
--Carol P.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Email: carol.pearson234@gmail.com
Twitter: @CarolP222
---------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> IMO, this project is ready for TLP application.
>
> As a matter of fact, I suspect that TLP will help attract contributors
> spanning from users to coders and all other forms of contributors.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Regarding getting more contributors:
> >
> > Seems like there are two issues. One is overcoming the learning curve of
> > contributing, as you mentioned; the other is finding people who would be
> > motivated to contribute to this particular project.
> >
> > I think we can address the first with more tutorials on our web site
> and/or
> > wiki. Already there is an excellent tutorial on UDFs. Contributing in the
> > engine is a more complicated endeavor, but perhaps with appropriate
> > internal
> > documentation and descriptions of debugging tools we can lower the bar.
> >
> > The second issue is more difficult. There are many ways to contribute, of
> > course. UDFs has been mentioned in the past. Perhaps we can cultivate a
> > culture of users contributing some of their more interesting UDFs.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Roberta Marton [mailto:roberta.marton@esgyn.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 3:31 PM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
> >
> > We entered Apache Incubation May 24, 2015 so we have been incubating for
> > about a year.
> >
> > We have completed 2 major releases and there is a patch release in
> > progress.
> >
> > Once the patch release completes, we support:
> >
> > - Source tar files
> >
> > - Binary tar files
> >
> > - Distribution support for vanilla Apache, Hortonworks, and
> > Cloudera
> >
> > - Apache web site and wiki
> >
> > - Up to date documentation
> >
> >
> >
> > With the patch release, we believe all licensing issues have been
> > addressed.
> >
> >
> >
> > So the next decision is whether we should apply for top level project
> > status.
> >
> > The Trafodion PMC discussed this topic and the impression is that
> Trafodion
> > is doing well in many aspects - it has a large community, gets a lot of
> > contributions (code, documentation, testing, etc.) and has a vibrant
> > conversation going on in the email lists, particularly on the development
> > side. The main problem is that still too many folks are working for the
> > same
> > company, Esgyn. So, in terms of raw numbers we are good, but we might not
> > be
> > diverse enough as measured by number of independent organizations.
> >
> > What does everyone in the dev group think? If we have to increase our
> > diversity, how can this be done? Given the complexity of Trafodion it is
> > not
> > easy for a new contributor to become a committer without a lengthy
> learning
> > curve.
> >
> >
> >
> > Roberta
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
Posted by Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
IMO, this project is ready for TLP application.
As a matter of fact, I suspect that TLP will help attract contributors
spanning from users to coders and all other forms of contributors.
Thanks,
Gunnar
On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Regarding getting more contributors:
>
> Seems like there are two issues. One is overcoming the learning curve of
> contributing, as you mentioned; the other is finding people who would be
> motivated to contribute to this particular project.
>
> I think we can address the first with more tutorials on our web site and/or
> wiki. Already there is an excellent tutorial on UDFs. Contributing in the
> engine is a more complicated endeavor, but perhaps with appropriate
> internal
> documentation and descriptions of debugging tools we can lower the bar.
>
> The second issue is more difficult. There are many ways to contribute, of
> course. UDFs has been mentioned in the past. Perhaps we can cultivate a
> culture of users contributing some of their more interesting UDFs.
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roberta Marton [mailto:roberta.marton@esgyn.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 3:31 PM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
>
> We entered Apache Incubation May 24, 2015 so we have been incubating for
> about a year.
>
> We have completed 2 major releases and there is a patch release in
> progress.
>
> Once the patch release completes, we support:
>
> - Source tar files
>
> - Binary tar files
>
> - Distribution support for vanilla Apache, Hortonworks, and
> Cloudera
>
> - Apache web site and wiki
>
> - Up to date documentation
>
>
>
> With the patch release, we believe all licensing issues have been
> addressed.
>
>
>
> So the next decision is whether we should apply for top level project
> status.
>
> The Trafodion PMC discussed this topic and the impression is that Trafodion
> is doing well in many aspects - it has a large community, gets a lot of
> contributions (code, documentation, testing, etc.) and has a vibrant
> conversation going on in the email lists, particularly on the development
> side. The main problem is that still too many folks are working for the
> same
> company, Esgyn. So, in terms of raw numbers we are good, but we might not
> be
> diverse enough as measured by number of independent organizations.
>
> What does everyone in the dev group think? If we have to increase our
> diversity, how can this be done? Given the complexity of Trafodion it is
> not
> easy for a new contributor to become a committer without a lengthy learning
> curve.
>
>
>
> Roberta
>
--
Thanks,
Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
RE: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
Posted by Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>.
Hi,
Regarding getting more contributors:
Seems like there are two issues. One is overcoming the learning curve of
contributing, as you mentioned; the other is finding people who would be
motivated to contribute to this particular project.
I think we can address the first with more tutorials on our web site and/or
wiki. Already there is an excellent tutorial on UDFs. Contributing in the
engine is a more complicated endeavor, but perhaps with appropriate internal
documentation and descriptions of debugging tools we can lower the bar.
The second issue is more difficult. There are many ways to contribute, of
course. UDFs has been mentioned in the past. Perhaps we can cultivate a
culture of users contributing some of their more interesting UDFs.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Roberta Marton [mailto:roberta.marton@esgyn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 3:31 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [DISCUSS] Tradofion TLP (top level project) status
We entered Apache Incubation May 24, 2015 so we have been incubating for
about a year.
We have completed 2 major releases and there is a patch release in progress.
Once the patch release completes, we support:
- Source tar files
- Binary tar files
- Distribution support for vanilla Apache, Hortonworks, and
Cloudera
- Apache web site and wiki
- Up to date documentation
With the patch release, we believe all licensing issues have been addressed.
So the next decision is whether we should apply for top level project
status.
The Trafodion PMC discussed this topic and the impression is that Trafodion
is doing well in many aspects - it has a large community, gets a lot of
contributions (code, documentation, testing, etc.) and has a vibrant
conversation going on in the email lists, particularly on the development
side. The main problem is that still too many folks are working for the same
company, Esgyn. So, in terms of raw numbers we are good, but we might not be
diverse enough as measured by number of independent organizations.
What does everyone in the dev group think? If we have to increase our
diversity, how can this be done? Given the complexity of Trafodion it is not
easy for a new contributor to become a committer without a lengthy learning
curve.
Roberta