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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by Eitan Suez <ei...@uptodata.com> on 2003/05/04 21:46:15 UTC
tiles followup..
a few days ago someone posted a question about tiles.
i'm really trying to test my understanding of tiles in terms
of tapestry:
is tiles basically the same as tapestry's <RenderBody> component?
i believe it allows you to refactor the layout of a page instead of
duplicating
it across many pages.
in tapestry one can easily do the same thing by
creating a component with a template for the html "frame" (that is,
header,
footer, sidebar, etc..) that uses a renderbody component to specify
where
the page's content should go. indeed many of the examples that
come with tapestry include such a component (border).
if this is the case, this does speak loudly about how powerful tapestry
really
is (that a single component in the tapestry framework is all that's
needed
to provide the same feature as a major add-on to some other well-known
framework).
i'll take the opportunity to overload this message with a related
question
to verify my understanding of blocks and renderblock. is it essentially
the same as renderbody but with multiple pieces (fragments) where
not all the content of a page goes in the same place?
thanks,
/ eitan
Re: tiles followup..
Posted by Christian Sell <ch...@netcologne.de>.
having evaluated both struts/tiles and tapestry rather thoroughly by
now, I'll throw in my 2cts as well..
IMO, the main difference between tiles and tapestry is that tiles,
trying to do components the struts way, still does not have a true
component model, as it separates the presentation from the behavior.
Behavior is still implemented as actions, which are registered in some
global XML registry. Structurally, these actions are something like
global functions (remember, in those pre-OO days).
Consequently, you cannot develop a component which is completely
self-contained - you always have to manipulate the registry to make it work.
Tapestry, OTOH, has true components where the presentation and the code
that handles it are directly (and transparently) bound together. Very
nice. You can even bundle and distribute components in libraries. And I
havent even talked about javascript support yet - which is absent in tiles.
Lian Seng, Loh wrote:
> This is not a plug for Tiles, but I did find Tiles rather attractive, and I
> guess this will not be the last time a comparison is made. I am also new to
> Tapestry, so I would not be able to articulate how Tapestry also does the
> same thing effectively.
>
> In Tiles, there is the templating mechanism which allows various sections of
> the template to be populated by different blocks dynamically. The
> templating mechanism offers a few standard layouts like column, tabs styled
> layouts which allows pages be defined quickly using other "blocks" (aka
> html/jsp). I guess in Tapestry, this would be a "assembly", rather than a
> templating mechanism, using Components/Blocks, but definitely doable I
> think.
>
> Basically screens are defined using XML files using JSP/HTML/etc, and other
> XML definitions as building blocks. Firstly, define templates with specific
> layouts, then define pages ("bind" blocks in the template to HTML/JSP).
> Defined pages can also "inherit" from other pages, over-riding any of the
> defined blocks selectively. This is especially useful in role-based
> screens.
>
> Another cool feature was its "menu" definition capabilities (a navigation
> block - Tapestry's Border ?). Basically a menu can be defined (e.g. column
> layout, descriptions, links) using XML and inserted into the template
> without writing any code. The newly defined page then has a different
> navigation scheme. Again this is useful in role-based screens where menu
> links are changed dynamically. Using the "Border" scheme means making many
> Border type of components, one for each of the role (correct me if I'm
> wrong). The nearest thing I found was the "tree component", but that has
> the layout and navigational elements, and more, so was more complex.
> Hmm... maybe a "menu" component needs to be one of the core components in
> Tapestry.
>
> All these definitions using XML files (can be one for each role, etc) means
> greater discipline changing the screens, but not necessarily greater
> complexity.
>
> Sorry if I am wrong about Tapestry's capabilities - I am still learning.
> Having said all this, I am rather disappointed with JSP, even with Struts
> and Tiles, I might as well use ASP - they have better tools at least.
>
> LS
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Schneider" <er...@centralparksoftware.com>
> To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 6:29 AM
> Subject: Re: tiles followup..
>
>
>
>>Eitan,
>>
>>There really isn't such a cut and dry comparison of tiles to a specific
>>component in tapestry. The main reason I used tiles in JSP projects was
>>because struts didn't provide a 'page wrapping' mechanism. Yeah, you
>
> could
>
>>separate your header, footer, and navi into different files, but it seemed
>>like there was no easy way to avoid repeating the page structure over and
>>over again. Tiles helped in that regard, but with a price. Each tile on
>
> a
>
>>page requires a full request/response loop (or at least it did when I was
>>looking at it).
>>
>>Anyway, if you forced me to make a comparison of Tiles to a specific
>>component, I'd say the shell component.
>>
>>Example...you can have a component called PageWrapper:
>>
>><span jwcid="shell">
>><body jwcid="body" leftmargin="0" topmargin="0">
>><table>
>><tr>
>> <td colspan="2"><span jwcid="headerComponent" /></td>
>></tr>
>><tr>
>> <td><span jwcid="leftNaviComponent" /></td>
>> <td><span jwcid="renderBody" /></td>
>></tr>
>><tr>
>> <td colspan="2"><span jwcid="footerComponent" /></td>
>></tr>
>></table>
>></body>
>></span>
>>
>>The important element in this template is the "renderBody" span tag. This
>>is where the body of your page will go when you use this component.
>>
>>So, every new page you create, all you need is your page wrapper
>
> component.
>
>>MyNewPage.html:
>>
>><span jwcid="pageWrapper" >
>>HEY! THIS IS MY NEW PAGE.
>></span>
>>
>>The page will render with a header, navi, footer, etc. and your "HEY!...."
>>body inserted.
>>
>>Hope this is helpful, eh?
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Eric
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Eitan Suez" <ei...@uptodata.com>
>>To: <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:46 PM
>>Subject: tiles followup..
>>
>>
>>
>>>a few days ago someone posted a question about tiles.
>>>i'm really trying to test my understanding of tiles in terms
>>>of tapestry:
>>>
>>> is tiles basically the same as tapestry's <RenderBody> component?
>>>
>>>i believe it allows you to refactor the layout of a page instead of
>>>duplicating
>>>it across many pages.
>>>
>>>in tapestry one can easily do the same thing by
>>>creating a component with a template for the html "frame" (that is,
>>>header,
>>>footer, sidebar, etc..) that uses a renderbody component to specify
>>>where
>>>the page's content should go. indeed many of the examples that
>>>come with tapestry include such a component (border).
>>>
>>>if this is the case, this does speak loudly about how powerful tapestry
>>>really
>>>is (that a single component in the tapestry framework is all that's
>>>needed
>>>to provide the same feature as a major add-on to some other well-known
>>>framework).
>>>
>>>i'll take the opportunity to overload this message with a related
>>>question
>>>to verify my understanding of blocks and renderblock. is it essentially
>>>the same as renderbody but with multiple pieces (fragments) where
>>>not all the content of a page goes in the same place?
>>>
>>>thanks,
>>> / eitan
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
Re: tiles followup..
Posted by "Lian Seng, Loh" <li...@hotmail.com>.
This is not a plug for Tiles, but I did find Tiles rather attractive, and I
guess this will not be the last time a comparison is made. I am also new to
Tapestry, so I would not be able to articulate how Tapestry also does the
same thing effectively.
In Tiles, there is the templating mechanism which allows various sections of
the template to be populated by different blocks dynamically. The
templating mechanism offers a few standard layouts like column, tabs styled
layouts which allows pages be defined quickly using other "blocks" (aka
html/jsp). I guess in Tapestry, this would be a "assembly", rather than a
templating mechanism, using Components/Blocks, but definitely doable I
think.
Basically screens are defined using XML files using JSP/HTML/etc, and other
XML definitions as building blocks. Firstly, define templates with specific
layouts, then define pages ("bind" blocks in the template to HTML/JSP).
Defined pages can also "inherit" from other pages, over-riding any of the
defined blocks selectively. This is especially useful in role-based
screens.
Another cool feature was its "menu" definition capabilities (a navigation
block - Tapestry's Border ?). Basically a menu can be defined (e.g. column
layout, descriptions, links) using XML and inserted into the template
without writing any code. The newly defined page then has a different
navigation scheme. Again this is useful in role-based screens where menu
links are changed dynamically. Using the "Border" scheme means making many
Border type of components, one for each of the role (correct me if I'm
wrong). The nearest thing I found was the "tree component", but that has
the layout and navigational elements, and more, so was more complex.
Hmm... maybe a "menu" component needs to be one of the core components in
Tapestry.
All these definitions using XML files (can be one for each role, etc) means
greater discipline changing the screens, but not necessarily greater
complexity.
Sorry if I am wrong about Tapestry's capabilities - I am still learning.
Having said all this, I am rather disappointed with JSP, even with Struts
and Tiles, I might as well use ASP - they have better tools at least.
LS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Schneider" <er...@centralparksoftware.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: tiles followup..
> Eitan,
>
> There really isn't such a cut and dry comparison of tiles to a specific
> component in tapestry. The main reason I used tiles in JSP projects was
> because struts didn't provide a 'page wrapping' mechanism. Yeah, you
could
> separate your header, footer, and navi into different files, but it seemed
> like there was no easy way to avoid repeating the page structure over and
> over again. Tiles helped in that regard, but with a price. Each tile on
a
> page requires a full request/response loop (or at least it did when I was
> looking at it).
>
> Anyway, if you forced me to make a comparison of Tiles to a specific
> component, I'd say the shell component.
>
> Example...you can have a component called PageWrapper:
>
> <span jwcid="shell">
> <body jwcid="body" leftmargin="0" topmargin="0">
> <table>
> <tr>
> <td colspan="2"><span jwcid="headerComponent" /></td>
> </tr>
> <tr>
> <td><span jwcid="leftNaviComponent" /></td>
> <td><span jwcid="renderBody" /></td>
> </tr>
> <tr>
> <td colspan="2"><span jwcid="footerComponent" /></td>
> </tr>
> </table>
> </body>
> </span>
>
> The important element in this template is the "renderBody" span tag. This
> is where the body of your page will go when you use this component.
>
> So, every new page you create, all you need is your page wrapper
component.
>
> MyNewPage.html:
>
> <span jwcid="pageWrapper" >
> HEY! THIS IS MY NEW PAGE.
> </span>
>
> The page will render with a header, navi, footer, etc. and your "HEY!...."
> body inserted.
>
> Hope this is helpful, eh?
>
> Cheers,
> Eric
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eitan Suez" <ei...@uptodata.com>
> To: <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:46 PM
> Subject: tiles followup..
>
>
> >
> > a few days ago someone posted a question about tiles.
> > i'm really trying to test my understanding of tiles in terms
> > of tapestry:
> >
> > is tiles basically the same as tapestry's <RenderBody> component?
> >
> > i believe it allows you to refactor the layout of a page instead of
> > duplicating
> > it across many pages.
> >
> > in tapestry one can easily do the same thing by
> > creating a component with a template for the html "frame" (that is,
> > header,
> > footer, sidebar, etc..) that uses a renderbody component to specify
> > where
> > the page's content should go. indeed many of the examples that
> > come with tapestry include such a component (border).
> >
> > if this is the case, this does speak loudly about how powerful tapestry
> > really
> > is (that a single component in the tapestry framework is all that's
> > needed
> > to provide the same feature as a major add-on to some other well-known
> > framework).
> >
> > i'll take the opportunity to overload this message with a related
> > question
> > to verify my understanding of blocks and renderblock. is it essentially
> > the same as renderbody but with multiple pieces (fragments) where
> > not all the content of a page goes in the same place?
> >
> > thanks,
> > / eitan
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
Re: tiles followup..
Posted by Eitan Suez <ei...@uptodata.com>.
Hi Eric,
thanks for the thorough response. this pretty much
clears up any uncertainty about tiles and what problems
it was designed to solve.
thanks, eitan
On Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 17:29 US/Central, Eric Schneider wrote:
> Eitan,
>
> There really isn't such a cut and dry comparison of tiles to a specific
> component in tapestry. The main reason I used tiles in JSP projects
> was
> because struts didn't provide a 'page wrapping' mechanism. Yeah, you
> could
> separate your header, footer, and navi into different files, but it
> seemed
> like there was no easy way to avoid repeating the page structure over
> and
> over again. Tiles helped in that regard, but with a price. Each tile
> on a
> page requires a full request/response loop (or at least it did when I
> was
> looking at it).
>
> Anyway, if you forced me to make a comparison of Tiles to a specific
> component, I'd say the shell component.
>
> Example...you can have a component called PageWrapper:
>
> <span jwcid="shell">
> <body jwcid="body" leftmargin="0" topmargin="0">
> <table>
> <tr>
> <td colspan="2"><span jwcid="headerComponent" /></td>
> </tr>
> <tr>
> <td><span jwcid="leftNaviComponent" /></td>
> <td><span jwcid="renderBody" /></td>
> </tr>
> <tr>
> <td colspan="2"><span jwcid="footerComponent" /></td>
> </tr>
> </table>
> </body>
> </span>
>
> The important element in this template is the "renderBody" span tag.
> This
> is where the body of your page will go when you use this component.
>
> So, every new page you create, all you need is your page wrapper
> component.
>
> MyNewPage.html:
>
> <span jwcid="pageWrapper" >
> HEY! THIS IS MY NEW PAGE.
> </span>
>
> The page will render with a header, navi, footer, etc. and your
> "HEY!...."
> body inserted.
>
> Hope this is helpful, eh?
>
> Cheers,
> Eric
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eitan Suez" <ei...@uptodata.com>
> To: <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:46 PM
> Subject: tiles followup..
>
>
>>
>> a few days ago someone posted a question about tiles.
>> i'm really trying to test my understanding of tiles in terms
>> of tapestry:
>>
>> is tiles basically the same as tapestry's <RenderBody> component?
>>
>> i believe it allows you to refactor the layout of a page instead of
>> duplicating
>> it across many pages.
>>
>> in tapestry one can easily do the same thing by
>> creating a component with a template for the html "frame" (that is,
>> header,
>> footer, sidebar, etc..) that uses a renderbody component to specify
>> where
>> the page's content should go. indeed many of the examples that
>> come with tapestry include such a component (border).
>>
>> if this is the case, this does speak loudly about how powerful
>> tapestry
>> really
>> is (that a single component in the tapestry framework is all that's
>> needed
>> to provide the same feature as a major add-on to some other well-known
>> framework).
>>
>> i'll take the opportunity to overload this message with a related
>> question
>> to verify my understanding of blocks and renderblock. is it
>> essentially
>> the same as renderbody but with multiple pieces (fragments) where
>> not all the content of a page goes in the same place?
>>
>> thanks,
>> / eitan
Re: tiles followup..
Posted by Eric Schneider <er...@centralparksoftware.com>.
Eitan,
There really isn't such a cut and dry comparison of tiles to a specific
component in tapestry. The main reason I used tiles in JSP projects was
because struts didn't provide a 'page wrapping' mechanism. Yeah, you could
separate your header, footer, and navi into different files, but it seemed
like there was no easy way to avoid repeating the page structure over and
over again. Tiles helped in that regard, but with a price. Each tile on a
page requires a full request/response loop (or at least it did when I was
looking at it).
Anyway, if you forced me to make a comparison of Tiles to a specific
component, I'd say the shell component.
Example...you can have a component called PageWrapper:
<span jwcid="shell">
<body jwcid="body" leftmargin="0" topmargin="0">
<table>
<tr>
<td colspan="2"><span jwcid="headerComponent" /></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span jwcid="leftNaviComponent" /></td>
<td><span jwcid="renderBody" /></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2"><span jwcid="footerComponent" /></td>
</tr>
</table>
</body>
</span>
The important element in this template is the "renderBody" span tag. This
is where the body of your page will go when you use this component.
So, every new page you create, all you need is your page wrapper component.
MyNewPage.html:
<span jwcid="pageWrapper" >
HEY! THIS IS MY NEW PAGE.
</span>
The page will render with a header, navi, footer, etc. and your "HEY!...."
body inserted.
Hope this is helpful, eh?
Cheers,
Eric
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eitan Suez" <ei...@uptodata.com>
To: <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:46 PM
Subject: tiles followup..
>
> a few days ago someone posted a question about tiles.
> i'm really trying to test my understanding of tiles in terms
> of tapestry:
>
> is tiles basically the same as tapestry's <RenderBody> component?
>
> i believe it allows you to refactor the layout of a page instead of
> duplicating
> it across many pages.
>
> in tapestry one can easily do the same thing by
> creating a component with a template for the html "frame" (that is,
> header,
> footer, sidebar, etc..) that uses a renderbody component to specify
> where
> the page's content should go. indeed many of the examples that
> come with tapestry include such a component (border).
>
> if this is the case, this does speak loudly about how powerful tapestry
> really
> is (that a single component in the tapestry framework is all that's
> needed
> to provide the same feature as a major add-on to some other well-known
> framework).
>
> i'll take the opportunity to overload this message with a related
> question
> to verify my understanding of blocks and renderblock. is it essentially
> the same as renderbody but with multiple pieces (fragments) where
> not all the content of a page goes in the same place?
>
> thanks,
> / eitan
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
Re: tiles followup..
Posted by Eitan Suez <ei...@uptodata.com>.
> Expert developers I've talked to who have used Tiles in a project have
> told
> me they wouldn't use it again
thanks for sharing this tidbit. it's valuable to get some insight
into what people's experiences are with various technologies.
/ eitan
On Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 15:50 US/Central, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> Again, the concept of a Block is a way to package up a portion of a
> page
> (containing static HTML text and components) and pass them as a
> parameter to
> some other component. It was created for the Palette component,
> initially,
> since a Palette wanted to have multiple places to plug in full content
> (not
> just strings).
>
> To some degree, the body of a component (the portion of the container's
> template a component wraps around) can be thought of as an "implicit
> block",
> and the RenderBody component is like a RenderBlock that renders this
> "implicit block" ... but the implementation doesn't look anything like
> that.
>
> I'm not overly familiar with Tiles, but I believe ordinary components
> do
> most of what Tiles does, and Block/RenderBlock does the rest, and more.
> Expert developers I've talked to who have used Tiles in a project have
> told
> me they wouldn't use it again ... it basically allows you to tear
> apart a
> logical page into so many tiny bits that you get lost trying to
> reassmble
> it; its also a burden on graphic designers since they have no idea
> where too
> look for the "tiles" they need to change.
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
> Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
> http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Eitan Suez [mailto:eitan@uptodata.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:46 PM
>> To: tapestry-user@jakarta.apache.org
>> Subject: tiles followup..
>>
>>
>>
>> a few days ago someone posted a question about tiles.
>> i'm really trying to test my understanding of tiles in terms
>> of tapestry:
>>
>> is tiles basically the same as tapestry's <RenderBody> component?
>>
>> i believe it allows you to refactor the layout of a page instead of
>> duplicating
>> it across many pages.
>>
>> in tapestry one can easily do the same thing by
>> creating a component with a template for the html "frame" (that is,
>> header,
>> footer, sidebar, etc..) that uses a renderbody component to specify
>> where
>> the page's content should go. indeed many of the examples
>> that come with tapestry include such a component (border).
>>
>> if this is the case, this does speak loudly about how
>> powerful tapestry
>> really
>> is (that a single component in the tapestry framework is all that's
>> needed
>> to provide the same feature as a major add-on to some other
>> well-known framework).
>>
>> i'll take the opportunity to overload this message with a related
>> question
>> to verify my understanding of blocks and renderblock. is it
>> essentially the same as renderbody but with multiple pieces
>> (fragments) where not all the content of a page goes in the
>> same place?
>>
>> thanks,
>> / eitan
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
thanks,
/ eitan
RE: tiles followup..
Posted by "Howard M. Lewis Ship" <hl...@attbi.com>.
Again, the concept of a Block is a way to package up a portion of a page
(containing static HTML text and components) and pass them as a parameter to
some other component. It was created for the Palette component, initially,
since a Palette wanted to have multiple places to plug in full content (not
just strings).
To some degree, the body of a component (the portion of the container's
template a component wraps around) can be thought of as an "implicit block",
and the RenderBody component is like a RenderBlock that renders this
"implicit block" ... but the implementation doesn't look anything like that.
I'm not overly familiar with Tiles, but I believe ordinary components do
most of what Tiles does, and Block/RenderBlock does the rest, and more.
Expert developers I've talked to who have used Tiles in a project have told
me they wouldn't use it again ... it basically allows you to tear apart a
logical page into so many tiny bits that you get lost trying to reassmble
it; its also a burden on graphic designers since they have no idea where too
look for the "tiles" they need to change.
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eitan Suez [mailto:eitan@uptodata.com]
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:46 PM
> To: tapestry-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: tiles followup..
>
>
>
> a few days ago someone posted a question about tiles.
> i'm really trying to test my understanding of tiles in terms
> of tapestry:
>
> is tiles basically the same as tapestry's <RenderBody> component?
>
> i believe it allows you to refactor the layout of a page instead of
> duplicating
> it across many pages.
>
> in tapestry one can easily do the same thing by
> creating a component with a template for the html "frame" (that is,
> header,
> footer, sidebar, etc..) that uses a renderbody component to specify
> where
> the page's content should go. indeed many of the examples
> that come with tapestry include such a component (border).
>
> if this is the case, this does speak loudly about how
> powerful tapestry
> really
> is (that a single component in the tapestry framework is all that's
> needed
> to provide the same feature as a major add-on to some other
> well-known framework).
>
> i'll take the opportunity to overload this message with a related
> question
> to verify my understanding of blocks and renderblock. is it
> essentially the same as renderbody but with multiple pieces
> (fragments) where not all the content of a page goes in the
> same place?
>
> thanks,
> / eitan
>
>
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