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Posted to batik-users@xmlgraphics.apache.org by "Burnside, Daryle" <da...@pmplimited.com.au> on 2004/12/20 23:29:22 UTC
WYSIWYG Eclipse Editor using batik
My first post so be gentle...
a question if I may...
The company that I work for is interested in creating a WYSIWYG style of
editor for Eclipse 3.0.*
We currently have an internal Java Web start application based on
Batik/Swing and are looking
to move this to a Batik/SWT-Eclipse Framework (still to be delivered
over Web start....)
Is anyone aware of any such attempts at this sort of Eclipse editor?
or is this impractical / impossible?
(I'm aware of Dirk Lemmermann's plugin)
Thanks for your thoughts...
Regards Daryle Burnside.
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Re: WYSIWYG Eclipse Editor using batik
Posted by Thomas DeWeese <Th...@Kodak.com>.
Hi Daryle,
Burnside, Daryle wrote:
> The company that I work for is interested in creating a WYSIWYG style of
> editor for Eclipse 3.0.*
>
> We currently have an internal Java Web start application based on
> Batik/Swing and are looking to move this to a Batik/SWT-Eclipse
> Framework (still to be delivered over Web start....)
>
> Is anyone aware of any such attempts at this sort of Eclipse editor?
There were some rumblings a while ago but I haven't heard anything
recently. It's possible Dirk's plugin has filled the need.
> or is this impractical / impossible?
Well, it is certainly possible. I don't even think it would
be particularly impractical. There would be two major pieces
as I see it. First an SWT version of the JSVGCanvas, and second
what ever WYSIWYG stuff you need on top of it.
I'll only talk about the first since I don't know anything
about your WYSIWYG stuff. Internally the JSVGCanvas draws everything
to an offscreen BufferedImage, the offscreen image is then used to
refresh the display as needed (like when another window passes over
the top). So you would need an "efficient" way to get a BufferedImage
displayed in the SWT widget.
The rest of it would be essentially cut/paste and modify the
current canvas code (that handles updates, user events, etc) so it
is plugged into the SWT facilities for these things. These aren't
small classes so this isn't trivial but you do have a good working
model to use as your basis.
You might have to give up some display flexibility for example
the 'paintingTransform' which is how we implement the interactive
pan/zoom/rotate as it is likely that SWT wouldn't support it.
BTW if you are hoping to get a significant speed bump by doing
this I wouldn't hold my breath as currently getting the image on
the screen is one of the smaller pieces of work, when Batik slows
down it is because it is rendering lots of content and that wouldn't
change one lick between Swing/SWT.
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Re: WYSIWYG Eclipse Editor using batik
Posted by Gary Frederick <ga...@jsoft.com>.
Howdy
I'm getting in to this thread a bit late (the holidays caught up with
me) and wanted to say I am interested.
Good comments!!!
We are working on a programming editor that lets kids program visually
with blocks like the work MIT and then Lego did.
I tried several ways of getting the job done. Some tests were:
SVG with JavaScript - was slow
SVG with XUL in Mozilla - the SVG support was not all there then
Batik - would have worked but I found Eclipse
We are currently working on using Eclipse's graphical editing framework
GEF. It's working (sorta ;-) ). We still have XML+XSLT=>SVG and I hope
to have a view that displays the blocks in SVG in the Eclipse based
editor. I'm not sure if we would have the SVG view be editable or just a
view that can show variations on the graphics displayed.
I have not done anything with Eclipse's EMF other than look enough to
know that GEF/EMF is the way to go.
When (if...) we have something worth looking at, I'll post here.
I'm also iterested in talking with others that are doing SVG with
Eclipse. Who is following up?
Gary
Tonny Kohar wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>>Sketsa is good, I already use it, Tonny! =) I selected Sketsa as my
>>platform during the technology research, so I have tooled around with
>>it, but I haven't really put it through the serious ringer yet, as I am
>>not to that stage.
>
>
> Thank you for your interest in Sketsa.
>
>
>>Perhaps you two guys could get together and discuss an Eclipse plugin
>>for SVG authoring and/or content creation? The idea of integrating
>>SVG-based UML tools, for instance, is a great one. I know the Eclipse
>>gang has recently released stuff (EMF, for instance), but I have not had
>>time to research what it is or what benefits it brings.
>
>
> This is very interesting stuff, and when I have time I will look it into
> detail. My current thought of SVG UML tool that it can't be achived (I
> could be wrong) using pure SVG eg: since the line connection need to be
> preserved. However by mix pure svg with some namespace
> (proprietary/open), the SVG UML tool could preserve the data that is not
> available in current SVG spec
>
> Thanks
> Tonny Kohar
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Re: WYSIWYG Eclipse Editor using batik
Posted by Tonny Kohar <to...@kiyut.com>.
Hi,
> Sketsa is good, I already use it, Tonny! =) I selected Sketsa as my
> platform during the technology research, so I have tooled around with
> it, but I haven't really put it through the serious ringer yet, as I am
> not to that stage.
Thank you for your interest in Sketsa.
> Perhaps you two guys could get together and discuss an Eclipse plugin
> for SVG authoring and/or content creation? The idea of integrating
> SVG-based UML tools, for instance, is a great one. I know the Eclipse
> gang has recently released stuff (EMF, for instance), but I have not had
> time to research what it is or what benefits it brings.
This is very interesting stuff, and when I have time I will look it into
detail. My current thought of SVG UML tool that it can't be achived (I
could be wrong) using pure SVG eg: since the line connection need to be
preserved. However by mix pure svg with some namespace
(proprietary/open), the SVG UML tool could preserve the data that is not
available in current SVG spec
Thanks
Tonny Kohar
--
Sketsa
SVG Graphics Editor
http://www.kiyut.com
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Re: SVG capabilities
Posted by Tonny Kohar <to...@kiyut.com>.
Hi,
> 1. Can an SVG app be coded so that the map file (.svg or a 'wrapper'
> file that contains an SVG file + meta data 'header', etc) contains
> layers that can be turned on and off within the program, using SVG's
> visibility? An example would be allowing a viewer to turn off grid
> lines, for instance, or turn off the foliage+terrain shading and turn on
> terrain lines only (no fills) using menu options. The SVG file would
> contain this layer information, so that each map would be self-contained.
I think you can simulate layer in SVG by using <g> element and use
visibility on/off
> 2. One of the ideas I have for one of these layers is a gray-scale
> height map that the application uses as a terrain map during
> calculations of Line-Of-Sight checks. One of the issues I will have to
> tackle is having a 'reference' somehow embedded into the map file that
> gives the app a height in meters for a particular shade of gray. I was
> considering having the map file consist of the svg itself, in addition
> to other metadata, such as this height reference, author/date
> information and authenticity/"Certified" status/CRC signature of some sort.
> The question here is, given that SVG is XML, can these 'metadata
> elements' be contained inside the SVG element tree itself without
> confusing the Batik rendering sections of the code? It is possible, I
> think, using CDATA elements, but what are the thoughts of everyone out
> there?
I am not really sure about this one, I think SVG support Metadata out of
the box. Beside for SVG 1.2 there is really interesting stuff such as
xbl, etc. Check out the SVG 1.2 spec for more info
> 3. This one is a long-shot, and I am relatively sure the answer is
> 'no', but the designer in me begs to ask: Can an app/viewer/loader be
> built that reads in a large svg file (say, a 100km x 100km map file),
> allows the user to find a smaller section of a map to use for a scenario
> (say a 20km by 20km square of that), and 'crop' the map data into a
> smaller memory footprint svg? A sort of sub-svg file?
About the memory footprint, I think it is depend on the UA itself,
but for pure SVG, I think you could use viewbox. I forget then name (if
I am not wrong), svg have attribute that can give hint to UA not to draw
the thing not currently displayed. Maybe this can save some memory.
Regards
Tonny Kohar
--
Sketsa
SVG Graphics Editor
http://www.kiyut.com
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SVG capabilities
Posted by John Jones <ch...@openwarsim.net>.
I have a few questions that the masters out there could certainly chime
in on, if they have the time. During my research and learning phase of
this project I am working on, I am gathering all of the knowledge that I
can in order to design this application in the best way possible.
The project is a wargame written in Java, using Batik as the graphics
engine.
My questions:
1. Can an SVG app be coded so that the map file (.svg or a 'wrapper'
file that contains an SVG file + meta data 'header', etc) contains
layers that can be turned on and off within the program, using SVG's
visibility? An example would be allowing a viewer to turn off grid
lines, for instance, or turn off the foliage+terrain shading and turn on
terrain lines only (no fills) using menu options. The SVG file would
contain this layer information, so that each map would be self-contained.
2. One of the ideas I have for one of these layers is a gray-scale
height map that the application uses as a terrain map during
calculations of Line-Of-Sight checks. One of the issues I will have to
tackle is having a 'reference' somehow embedded into the map file that
gives the app a height in meters for a particular shade of gray. I was
considering having the map file consist of the svg itself, in addition
to other metadata, such as this height reference, author/date
information and authenticity/"Certified" status/CRC signature of some sort.
My current thought on this is a SAX parser in-app that splits this
metadata away from the actual SVG, rebuilding the svg data separately
and using that as map data. The metadata will be used/checked by
different aspects of the application simultaneously. This 'wrapper'
format would be used to distribute maps in one file, obviously.
The question here is, given that SVG is XML, can these 'metadata
elements' be contained inside the SVG element tree itself without
confusing the Batik rendering sections of the code? It is possible, I
think, using CDATA elements, but what are the thoughts of everyone out
there?
3. This one is a long-shot, and I am relatively sure the answer is
'no', but the designer in me begs to ask: Can an app/viewer/loader be
built that reads in a large svg file (say, a 100km x 100km map file),
allows the user to find a smaller section of a map to use for a scenario
(say a 20km by 20km square of that), and 'crop' the map data into a
smaller memory footprint svg? A sort of sub-svg file?
My idea was to allow a scenario description file to describe the map,
describe the upper left corner of this 'zoom square' and a size of said
'zoom square'. This way, if the entire 100km x 100km (1600x1600px) map
file takes up 10M of memory when fully loaded normally, a scenario
designer could crop this down to a 1M sub-map, without having to
distribute a new map file (all players would already have the map with
the distribution). Can you see it as possible for an application to be
able to do this sort of 'crop-and-discard-all-other-data' operation to
conserve memory?
I believe it would be possible, difficult but possible. Or am I just
too starry-eyed? :)
Thanks for any questions or pointers. I am mostly interested in
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Re: WYSIWYG Eclipse Editor using batik
Posted by John Jones <ch...@openwarsim.net>.
Tonny Kohar wrote:
> Yes, it is very interesting concept. We have similar product but not
> based on eclipse. It is only based on Batik and webstartable. It is
> visual SVG editor like illustrator. It is available at
> http://www.kiyut.com/products/sketsa/index.html.
>
> Any feedback is very appreciated
Sketsa is good, I already use it, Tonny! =) I selected Sketsa as my
platform during the technology research, so I have tooled around with
it, but I haven't really put it through the serious ringer yet, as I am
not to that stage.
I am still figuring out how I want to structure/break-down my file
format. There are some things that I want to test/try/find out about,
first.
Never fear. I will be a registered user before long.
Perhaps you two guys could get together and discuss an Eclipse plugin
for SVG authoring and/or content creation? The idea of integrating
SVG-based UML tools, for instance, is a great one. I know the Eclipse
gang has recently released stuff (EMF, for instance), but I have not had
time to research what it is or what benefits it brings.
Does anyone have any first-hand knowledge on that? (Please retitle your
thread so we don't hijack this one, or respond off-list if it is non
SVG-related!)
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Re: WYSIWYG Eclipse Editor using batik
Posted by Tonny Kohar <to...@kiyut.com>.
Hi,
> Do you mean an SVG designer/illustration program inside of Eclipse? I
> have not seen anything of this sort, and it sounds like an exciting
> concept that I would love to see happen.
Yes, it is very interesting concept. We have similar product but not
based on eclipse. It is only based on Batik and webstartable. It is
visual SVG editor like illustrator. It is available at
http://www.kiyut.com/products/sketsa/index.html.
> I for one would love to see this. I'll sign up as a beta-tester and
> feedback-giver. ;)
Any feedback is very appreciated
Regards
Tonny Kohar
--
Sketsa
SVG Graphics Editor
http://www.kiyut.com
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Re: WYSIWYG Eclipse Editor using batik
Posted by John Jones <ch...@openwarsim.net>.
Burnside, Daryle wrote:
> My first post so be gentle...
>
> a question if I may...
>
> The company that I work for is interested in creating a WYSIWYG style of
> editor for Eclipse 3.0.*
>
> We currently have an internal Java Web start application based on
> Batik/Swing and are looking
> to move this to a Batik/SWT-Eclipse Framework (still to be delivered
> over Web start....)
>
> Is anyone aware of any such attempts at this sort of Eclipse editor?
>
> or is this impractical / impossible?
>
> (I'm aware of Dirk Lemmermann's plugin)
>
> Thanks for your thoughts...
>
> Regards Daryle Burnside.
Do you mean an SVG designer/illustration program inside of Eclipse? I
have not seen anything of this sort, and it sounds like an exciting
concept that I would love to see happen.
Is there any chance you will show us your web start app? That is, of
course, if it is not proprietary?
As for impractical/impossible, I don't believe much is impossible
nowadays myself. But impractical?... hmmm. Best a question for those
who use the technology everyday, I would think.
I for one would love to see this. I'll sign up as a beta-tester and
feedback-giver. ;)
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RE: WYSIWYG Eclipse Editor using batik
Posted by Randy George <rk...@cadmaps.com>.
Hi Daryle,
This is an interesting area. The nature of svg, at the juncture
of text and graphics, has some very intriguing possibilities. Many of us
here have gotten used to manipulating svg in text mode but combining an xml
editor and a graphics editor as an Eclipse plugin converges both tools into
the same framework that we use for developing Javascript, backend Java
services, and sql database queries. Again, SVG has the potential of
significantly changing the way engineering design is accomplished. By
engineering I mean graphic oriented design like Civil, Mechanical,
Architectural, etc. Expressing these types of designs in xml allows design
practices in the IT world to cross over into this other realm.
For example CVS becomes a simple outgrowth of a WYSIWIG editor in the
Eclipse platform. Large dispersed projects and design chains can easily be
connected in the same manner that large enterprise IT projects are currently
developed. Something as simple as CVS would be quite useful for design
projects and collaborative design chains. Also design graphics is slowly
evolving into something more complex and dynamic with view links, database
linkage, parametric rules etc based on event listeners. These are better
handled in an IDE framework like Eclipse than in a standalone graphic
editing environment. Modern CAD/GIS functions would benefit greatly by
migrating from isolated proprietary platforms to an open environment like
Eclipse.
Using the Eclipse IDE as a base, xml designs can be checked out of a
standard CVS and shown with an SVG plugin viewer as either text or graphics.
The WYSIWIG editor can highlight synchronization issues or apply parametric
rules as well as normal editing functions. Once an engineer resolves
discrepancies in the design he can then recommit the design to the CVS where
it is available for use by engineers across the design domain and once
deployed available via internet across the world. CVS practices also make
design iterations a permanent part of the design record (perhaps a not so
pleasant thought, unless you're a lawyer).
Should be an opportunity for someone.
Randy
_____
From: Burnside, Daryle [mailto:daryle.burnside@pmplimited.com.au]
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 3:29 PM
To: batik-users@xml.apache.org
Subject: WYSIWYG Eclipse Editor using batik
My first post so be gentle...
a question if I may...
The company that I work for is interested in creating a WYSIWYG style of
editor for Eclipse 3.0.*
We currently have an internal Java Web start application based on
Batik/Swing and are looking
to move this to a Batik/SWT-Eclipse Framework (still to be delivered over
Web start....)
Is anyone aware of any such attempts at this sort of Eclipse editor?
or is this impractical / impossible?
(I'm aware of Dirk Lemmermann's plugin)
Thanks for your thoughts...
Regards Daryle Burnside.
**********************************************************************
This email and any attached files are confidential. They are intended solely
for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this email in error, please notify the sender by return email,
and delete the original.
All outgoing emails and attached files are virus scanned, but we do not
represent that this email and any attached files are free from computer
viruses or other defects. Further, we do not accept any liability for any
damage caused by this email or attachments.