The theory of retreats

[Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>]

I'm a little puzzled by the retreats. On the one hand, the members and
incubator lists have a constant stream of commentary of one snarkiness
or another about our focus on individuals, rather than corporations.
Then we have the retreats, which to me seem to select people with very
strong corporate support. Now, you might say, 'we have financial
assistance.' To me, however, the issue is the *time*, not the money.
If I use vacation time for such a thing, I'm going to get some pretty
hairy eyeballs across the dining room table from the my spouse and
kids. If I use work time, I have to justify the time, and that's no
small thing.

Maybe, amusingly, the selection function is tending to select people
who don't have pets, kids, or spouses competing for their time?

Or is there something basic I'm missing here?

Re: The theory of retreats

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

On 03/03/2011 13:45, Benson Margulies wrote:
> Well, thing #1, I missed the weekend aspect. So I'm effectively 50% nuts.

I'd put it much higher than that having met you ;-)

Ross

Re: The theory of retreats

[Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>]

Well, thing #1, I missed the weekend aspect. So I'm effectively 50% nuts.

I mean 'selection' in the 'self-selection' sense of the term.

I confess that I don't have a suggestion. I wish I'd started by asking
about who turns up. A few days ago, we had a load of anti-corporate
messages on the incubator, and then the retreat announcement came
through, and I found myself experiencing a moment of cognitive
dissonance. Going away for the weekend feels like a giant thing to me,
but I'd be unsurprised to find myself really unusual in this respect.

Re: The theory of retreats

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

On 03/03/2011 13:30, Benson Margulies wrote:
> I'm a little puzzled by the retreats.

Retreats are managed by ConCom not by ComDev. Having said that I don't 
see any harm on this discussion here, just be aware that we are 
discussing in a broader space and should feed back any conclusions to 
ConCom (which I'm happy to do as a member of ConCom).

> On the one hand, the members and
> incubator lists have a constant stream of commentary of one snarkiness
> or another about our focus on individuals, rather than corporations.
> Then we have the retreats, which to me seem to select people with very
> strong corporate support.

What gives you the impression that retreats "select" people. They are 
open to all and the Travel Assistance Committee supports people who are 
unable to pay their own way.

The selection is performed by the individual, not by the event format.

> Now, you might say, 'we have financial
> assistance.'

Errr... yes I did...

> To me, however, the issue is the *time*, not the money.
> If I use vacation time for such a thing, I'm going to get some pretty
> hairy eyeballs across the dining room table from the my spouse and
> kids. If I use work time, I have to justify the time, and that's no
> small thing.

They are run on weekends. Not many people work routinely on weekends, so 
I'm afraid your argument of justifying work time doesn't work for me. 
Furthermore, most people report that they can't get work to approve 
travel to a retreat, there isn't enough work related benefit in most cases.

> Maybe, amusingly, the selection function is tending to select people
> who don't have pets, kids, or spouses competing for their time?

I agree with that. For me retreats are too narrowly focussed for me to 
justify the time away from family. However, that doesn't mean they are a 
bad idea. They are just one type of events that ConCom support, none of 
the events are perfect for everyone.

Do you have a concrete suggestion that we should take back to ConCom?

Ross


-- 
rgardler@apache.org
@rgardler

Re: The theory of retreats

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

On 03/03/2011 13:54, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
> I feel simliar to Benson. Ireland is very nice, but it has a very high
> cost on time.
> I just took a look at the committers map. Wasn't there an effort
> before to bring together Apache people (and interested) in a specific
> area? 10 people from bavaria can make it in one day to an event and
> back. Cost should be very low. Of course not the same as a big
> meet'n'greet in ireland, but it might help people coming into apache
> or finally meet at least the people near you. From bavaria, I would
> propose the name "Apache Stammtisch". ;-)

ConCom will support any event that fits the criteria specified in their 
support documents see 
http://wiki.apache.org/concom-planning/ConComSupportedEvents

If you want to make an event happen then just put your proposal to ConCom.

Anything that doesn't fit the criteria for support is usually either:

a) too large for ConCom to support (e.g. BerlinBuzzwords)

or

b) too small to need support (e.g. a few people meeting for a beer)

>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Benson Margulies<bi...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> I have interest, but I have a very, very, strong priority toward
>> family on free time, and it's not so easy to transport the skating
>> competitions, piano lessons, and other family weekend activities to
>> Ireland. Aide from the fact that, as part of that priority, I tend to
>> want to spend the time with the family, wherever we are at. It is true
>> that Vermont (say) might be more digestible than Ireland :-) Please
>> don't interpret this as some sort of dog-in-manger ("I don't want to
>> do it so it shouldn't exist") attitude.
>>
>
>
>


-- 
rgardler@apache.org
@rgardler

Re: The theory of retreats

[Isabel Drost <is...@apache.org>]

On Thu, 03 Mar 11 Ulrich Stärk wrote:
> We are doing something like this in Berlin already: every month or so
> we meet for an Apache Dinner.

Just adding to that: Judging from a few threads on o.a.community similar
"events" have been organised along-side conferences that were attended
by Apache people.

Isabel

Re: The theory of retreats

[Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org>]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2011, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
> btw, whats ml are using? I would like to subscribe, if possible

For retreats, it's normally concom@ and retreats@.  For barcamps, 
generally it's concom@ for the initial proposal, then an event specific 
one for the organising.

Nick

Re: The theory of retreats

[Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>]

> Right now we are using a mailing list hosted by Isabel Drost. Not everyone has a XING account,
> though, so a mailing list might be better suited. Or is there a way to hook up a mailing list with a
> XING group?

No, no way to combine this. Guess it will get more visibility through
such a group. Probably plannings can be done on the ml, announcements
and discussions with non-committers on xing.

btw, whats ml are using? I would like to subscribe, if possible

>
> Uli
>
> On 03.03.2011 15:34, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>> Are you using XING or similar to announce/organize the event? If a
>> XING group is used, people can follow (like me). And probably other
>> events like a bavaria barcamp could join teh group too
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ulrich Stärk <ul...@spielviel.de> wrote:
>>> We are doing something like this in Berlin already: every month or so we meet for an Apache Dinner.
>>> Usually there are 2-4 members, 6 or so committers and a few guests, all from the area.
>>>
>>> Uli
>>>
>>> On 03.03.2011 14:54, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>>>> I feel simliar to Benson. Ireland is very nice, but it has a very high
>>>> cost on time.
>>>> I just took a look at the committers map. Wasn't there an effort
>>>> before to bring together Apache people (and interested) in a specific
>>>> area? 10 people from bavaria can make it in one day to an event and
>>>> back. Cost should be very low. Of course not the same as a big
>>>> meet'n'greet in ireland, but it might help people coming into apache
>>>> or finally meet at least the people near you. From bavaria, I would
>>>> propose the name "Apache Stammtisch". ;-)
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I have interest, but I have a very, very, strong priority toward
>>>>> family on free time, and it's not so easy to transport the skating
>>>>> competitions, piano lessons, and other family weekend activities to
>>>>> Ireland. Aide from the fact that, as part of that priority, I tend to
>>>>> want to spend the time with the family, wherever we are at. It is true
>>>>> that Vermont (say) might be more digestible than Ireland :-) Please
>>>>> don't interpret this as some sort of dog-in-manger ("I don't want to
>>>>> do it so it shouldn't exist") attitude.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>



-- 
http://www.grobmeier.de

Re: The theory of retreats

[Ulrich Stärk <ul...@spielviel.de>]

Right now we are using a mailing list hosted by Isabel Drost. Not everyone has a XING account,
though, so a mailing list might be better suited. Or is there a way to hook up a mailing list with a
XING group?

Uli

On 03.03.2011 15:34, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
> Are you using XING or similar to announce/organize the event? If a
> XING group is used, people can follow (like me). And probably other
> events like a bavaria barcamp could join teh group too
> 
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ulrich Stärk <ul...@spielviel.de> wrote:
>> We are doing something like this in Berlin already: every month or so we meet for an Apache Dinner.
>> Usually there are 2-4 members, 6 or so committers and a few guests, all from the area.
>>
>> Uli
>>
>> On 03.03.2011 14:54, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>>> I feel simliar to Benson. Ireland is very nice, but it has a very high
>>> cost on time.
>>> I just took a look at the committers map. Wasn't there an effort
>>> before to bring together Apache people (and interested) in a specific
>>> area? 10 people from bavaria can make it in one day to an event and
>>> back. Cost should be very low. Of course not the same as a big
>>> meet'n'greet in ireland, but it might help people coming into apache
>>> or finally meet at least the people near you. From bavaria, I would
>>> propose the name "Apache Stammtisch". ;-)
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I have interest, but I have a very, very, strong priority toward
>>>> family on free time, and it's not so easy to transport the skating
>>>> competitions, piano lessons, and other family weekend activities to
>>>> Ireland. Aide from the fact that, as part of that priority, I tend to
>>>> want to spend the time with the family, wherever we are at. It is true
>>>> that Vermont (say) might be more digestible than Ireland :-) Please
>>>> don't interpret this as some sort of dog-in-manger ("I don't want to
>>>> do it so it shouldn't exist") attitude.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 
> 

Re: Publicising events (was Re: The theory of retreats)

[Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>]

> On the other hand, with my ConCom hat on I would probably respond along the
> lines of "it's worth considering places like Xing, but we will never reach
> all of the possible social networks/event announcement lists/event feeds
> etc. We should encourage all people interested in the ASF to publicise our
> events for us in these places."

I think this is a good thing to have great ads with a very low cost. I
don't think it is necessary to use them all. In germany probably Xing,
Facebook and Twitter is most used from the social tools. I guess in
the US LinkedIn replaces Xing in this list. These four will already
have a good effect.

>From administration perspective, how is this done. In Xing groups you
can add more than one moderator. Facebook allows Pages with multiple
moderators too. So I guess we have some volunteers (the streetteam
;-)) for each network to fill the actual content and a small set of
group who are overseeing this activities.

Anyway, a central place for our events would also be good. On the
website there is a place for conferences, but I was not aware about
the Dinner in Berlin, even when I live in germany myself. I would have
expected there is a link from the main page to some kind of calendar.
All events on this calendar are allowed to be publicised to the
networks, maybe.

Christian

Publicising events (was Re: The theory of retreats)

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

On 03/03/2011 14:34, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
> Are you using XING or similar to announce/organize the event? If a
> XING group is used, people can follow (like me). And probably other
> events like a bavaria barcamp could join teh group too

I've copied this to ConCom as it's not our responsibility to publicise 
events.

On the other hand, with my ConCom hat on I would probably respond along 
the lines of "it's worth considering places like Xing, but we will never 
reach all of the possible social networks/event announcement lists/event 
feeds etc. We should encourage all people interested in the ASF to 
publicise our events for us in these places."

Ross

Re: The theory of retreats

[Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>]

Are you using XING or similar to announce/organize the event? If a
XING group is used, people can follow (like me). And probably other
events like a bavaria barcamp could join teh group too

On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ulrich Stärk <ul...@spielviel.de> wrote:
> We are doing something like this in Berlin already: every month or so we meet for an Apache Dinner.
> Usually there are 2-4 members, 6 or so committers and a few guests, all from the area.
>
> Uli
>
> On 03.03.2011 14:54, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>> I feel simliar to Benson. Ireland is very nice, but it has a very high
>> cost on time.
>> I just took a look at the committers map. Wasn't there an effort
>> before to bring together Apache people (and interested) in a specific
>> area? 10 people from bavaria can make it in one day to an event and
>> back. Cost should be very low. Of course not the same as a big
>> meet'n'greet in ireland, but it might help people coming into apache
>> or finally meet at least the people near you. From bavaria, I would
>> propose the name "Apache Stammtisch". ;-)
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I have interest, but I have a very, very, strong priority toward
>>> family on free time, and it's not so easy to transport the skating
>>> competitions, piano lessons, and other family weekend activities to
>>> Ireland. Aide from the fact that, as part of that priority, I tend to
>>> want to spend the time with the family, wherever we are at. It is true
>>> that Vermont (say) might be more digestible than Ireland :-) Please
>>> don't interpret this as some sort of dog-in-manger ("I don't want to
>>> do it so it shouldn't exist") attitude.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>



-- 
http://www.grobmeier.de

Re: The theory of retreats

[Ulrich Stärk <ul...@spielviel.de>]

We are doing something like this in Berlin already: every month or so we meet for an Apache Dinner.
Usually there are 2-4 members, 6 or so committers and a few guests, all from the area.

Uli

On 03.03.2011 14:54, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
> I feel simliar to Benson. Ireland is very nice, but it has a very high
> cost on time.
> I just took a look at the committers map. Wasn't there an effort
> before to bring together Apache people (and interested) in a specific
> area? 10 people from bavaria can make it in one day to an event and
> back. Cost should be very low. Of course not the same as a big
> meet'n'greet in ireland, but it might help people coming into apache
> or finally meet at least the people near you. From bavaria, I would
> propose the name "Apache Stammtisch". ;-)
> 
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have interest, but I have a very, very, strong priority toward
>> family on free time, and it's not so easy to transport the skating
>> competitions, piano lessons, and other family weekend activities to
>> Ireland. Aide from the fact that, as part of that priority, I tend to
>> want to spend the time with the family, wherever we are at. It is true
>> that Vermont (say) might be more digestible than Ireland :-) Please
>> don't interpret this as some sort of dog-in-manger ("I don't want to
>> do it so it shouldn't exist") attitude.
>>
> 
> 
> 

Re: The theory of retreats

[Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>]

> Can you get either 3 apache committers, or 2 apache committers + 2 others to
> agree to help run a one day BarCamp in Bavaria? (BarCamps are probably
> easier and cheaper to put on than Retreats)

Hm why not? I will see if I can find some other interested people from
the south. For sure it would make sense. I will check out the links
Ross send before minutes

> If so, concom is ready to help with mentors, advice, suggestions, and
> possibly funding too (depending on the proposal you put in). All you need to
> do is track down enough people near you to help run it!
>
> (The limiting factor at the moment is volunteers on the ground)

OK thanks for the information
Cheers
Christian

>
> Nick
>



-- 
http://www.grobmeier.de

Re: The theory of retreats

[Noirin Shirley <no...@apache.org>]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 10:32 PM, Stefan Seelmann <se...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Christian, do you have time to come to Munich on the 30th? Let's
> discuss that off-list, I think that isn't interesting for the other
> subscribers of this list.
>

If we can do a Friday/Saturday, I'll happily come up from Zurich :-)

BCC dev@community - I think party@ is a better place to discuss :-)

Noirin

Re: The theory of retreats

[Stefan Seelmann <se...@apache.org>]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 10:40 AM, Nils Hitze <nh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Can you get either 3 apache committers, or 2 apache committers + 2 others
>> to agree to help run a one day BarCamp in Bavaria? (BarCamps are probably
>> easier and cheaper to put on than Retreats)
>>
>> If so, concom is ready to help with mentors, advice, suggestions, and
>> possibly funding too (depending on the proposal you put in). All you need
>> to do is track down enough people near you to help run it!
>>
>> (The limiting factor at the moment is volunteers on the ground)
>
> Apache Roundtable needed?
>
> Would it be ok for you to meet in a smaller group first and together with another
> UserGroup first? I mean, for example, the GTUG (GoogleTechnologyUserGroup)
>
> Next meeting would be the GTUG Roundtable
> at the niederlassung.org on 30.03.2011, 7pm

Thanks Nils for the offer :-) (Nils is known in Munich for organizing
many events, user group meetings, bar camps, etc.)

Christian, do you have time to come to Munich on the 30th? Let's
discuss that off-list, I think that isn't interesting for the other
subscribers of this list.

Kind Regards,
Stefan

Re: The theory of retreats

[Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>]

>> Apache Roundtable needed?
>>
>> Would it be ok for you to meet in a smaller group first and together with
>> another
>> UserGroup first? I mean, for example, the GTUG (GoogleTechnologyUserGroup)

> The requirements for an event to qualify for ConCom support are documented
> at http://wiki.apache.org/concom-planning/ConComSupportedEvents
>
> Since you are talking about co-locating at an existing event I'm not clear
> on what support you would need.

Ross, I guess he was talking about a first small meeting to discuss
the next steps. This will not need any support from ConCom so far


-- 
http://www.grobmeier.de

Re: The theory of retreats

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

On 04/03/2011 09:40, Nils Hitze wrote:
>> Can you get either 3 apache committers, or 2 apache committers + 2 others
>> to agree to help run a one day BarCamp in Bavaria? (BarCamps are probably
>> easier and cheaper to put on than Retreats)
>>
>> If so, concom is ready to help with mentors, advice, suggestions, and
>> possibly funding too (depending on the proposal you put in). All you need
>> to do is track down enough people near you to help run it!
>>
>> (The limiting factor at the moment is volunteers on the ground)
>
> Apache Roundtable needed?
>
> Would it be ok for you to meet in a smaller group first and together with another
> UserGroup first? I mean, for example, the GTUG (GoogleTechnologyUserGroup)
>
> Next meeting would be the GTUG Roundtable
> at the niederlassung.org on 30.03.2011, 7pm

The requirements for an event to qualify for ConCom support are 
documented at http://wiki.apache.org/concom-planning/ConComSupportedEvents

Since you are talking about co-locating at an existing event I'm not 
clear on what support you would need.

Ross

Re: The theory of retreats

[Nils Hitze <nh...@gmail.com>]

> Can you get either 3 apache committers, or 2 apache committers + 2 others 
> to agree to help run a one day BarCamp in Bavaria? (BarCamps are probably 
> easier and cheaper to put on than Retreats)
> 
> If so, concom is ready to help with mentors, advice, suggestions, and 
> possibly funding too (depending on the proposal you put in). All you need 
> to do is track down enough people near you to help run it!
> 
> (The limiting factor at the moment is volunteers on the ground)

Apache Roundtable needed? 

Would it be ok for you to meet in a smaller group first and together with another
UserGroup first? I mean, for example, the GTUG (GoogleTechnologyUserGroup)

Next meeting would be the GTUG Roundtable
at the niederlassung.org on 30.03.2011, 7pm

Nils Hitze
Leader GTUG Munich, PHP UG Munich, Dorkbot
http://munich.gtugs.org

Re: The theory of retreats

[Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org>]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2011, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
> 10 people from bavaria can make it in one day to an event and back. Cost 
> should be very low. Of course not the same as a big meet'n'greet in 
> ireland, but it might help people coming into apache or finally meet at 
> least the people near you. From bavaria, I would propose the name 
> "Apache Stammtisch". ;-)

Can you get either 3 apache committers, or 2 apache committers + 2 others 
to agree to help run a one day BarCamp in Bavaria? (BarCamps are probably 
easier and cheaper to put on than Retreats)

If so, concom is ready to help with mentors, advice, suggestions, and 
possibly funding too (depending on the proposal you put in). All you need 
to do is track down enough people near you to help run it!

(The limiting factor at the moment is volunteers on the ground)

Nick

Re: The theory of retreats

[Stefan Seelmann <se...@apache.org>]

Hi Christian,

On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I feel simliar to Benson. Ireland is very nice, but it has a very high
> cost on time.
> I just took a look at the committers map. Wasn't there an effort
> before to bring together Apache people (and interested) in a specific
> area? 10 people from bavaria can make it in one day to an event and
> back. Cost should be very low. Of course not the same as a big
> meet'n'greet in ireland, but it might help people coming into apache
> or finally meet at least the people near you. From bavaria, I would
> propose the name "Apache Stammtisch". ;-)

That's a great idea.

I'd suggest to ping some Apache folks in Bavaria and to schedule a
Stammtisch/Dinner, no ConCom support is needed for that. There we can
discuss if a bigger event could be planned and if ConCom support is
needed.

Greetings from Munich,
Stefan

Re: The theory of retreats

[Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>]

I feel simliar to Benson. Ireland is very nice, but it has a very high
cost on time.
I just took a look at the committers map. Wasn't there an effort
before to bring together Apache people (and interested) in a specific
area? 10 people from bavaria can make it in one day to an event and
back. Cost should be very low. Of course not the same as a big
meet'n'greet in ireland, but it might help people coming into apache
or finally meet at least the people near you. From bavaria, I would
propose the name "Apache Stammtisch". ;-)

On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have interest, but I have a very, very, strong priority toward
> family on free time, and it's not so easy to transport the skating
> competitions, piano lessons, and other family weekend activities to
> Ireland. Aide from the fact that, as part of that priority, I tend to
> want to spend the time with the family, wherever we are at. It is true
> that Vermont (say) might be more digestible than Ireland :-) Please
> don't interpret this as some sort of dog-in-manger ("I don't want to
> do it so it shouldn't exist") attitude.
>



-- 
http://www.grobmeier.de

Re: The theory of retreats

[Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>]

I have interest, but I have a very, very, strong priority toward
family on free time, and it's not so easy to transport the skating
competitions, piano lessons, and other family weekend activities to
Ireland. Aide from the fact that, as part of that priority, I tend to
want to spend the time with the family, wherever we are at. It is true
that Vermont (say) might be more digestible than Ireland :-) Please
don't interpret this as some sort of dog-in-manger ("I don't want to
do it so it shouldn't exist") attitude.

Re: The theory of retreats

[Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org>]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2011, Benson Margulies wrote:
> To me, however, the issue is the *time*, not the money. If I use 
> vacation time for such a thing, I'm going to get some pretty hairy 
> eyeballs across the dining room table from the my spouse and kids. If I 
> use work time, I have to justify the time, and that's no small thing.

We've tended to hold the retreats on weekends, so that hopefully most 
people can make it there without needing either work time or vacation.

The hope is that we'll have more of these in the future, across a wider 
geographical area so that people won't have too long to travel to get to 
their nearest one. That should certainly help with the above. However, the 
limiting factor at the moment is people willing to help organise...

> Maybe, amusingly, the selection function is tending to select people
> who don't have pets, kids, or spouses competing for their time?

I believe that quite a lot of the people who come do have at least one (or 
more!) of those three. I'm told that a common trick is to get your other 
half to mind kids and/or pets for the weekend, then you do the same when 
they want to do their thing one weekend. Maybe the selection function is a 
product of interest and free time?

Nick