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Posted to marketing@couchdb.apache.org by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> on 2015/03/12 23:37:28 UTC
Designs and decision making
Hi folks,
It was brought up on the private list that someone ought to clarify
how we plan to make decisions about design related stuff.
Having a place (page) where we can collect design ideas, branding
ideas, and logo ideas is neat. It allows us to get the feedback from
the community. But we should not run this as a design by committee.
Avoiding that is easy. The community selects a person or person(s) to
do the design. That person is then entrusted to do the stuff. No
voting necessary. And that person can collect feedback however they
want.
If the person or person(s) decides on a design/brand/logo that the PMC
does not want to move forward with, the PMC can turn it down, like a
typical "client" situation.
It's important to remember that we try to avoid voting wherever
possible. :) So if this is what we're doing, let's just do it. Let's
nominate the designers and let them run with it.
Some analogies for the roles:
- Designer or design team: agency producing the design work
- Community (people on mailing lists): focus groups providing feedback
(and nothing more than that. Opinions to be taken as feedback only)
- PMC: client, gives the thumbs up or thumbs down
Make sense? :)
--
Noah Slater
https://twitter.com/nslater
Re: Designs and decision making
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
Thanks for sharing link, Nick
> On 13 Mar 2015, at 21:02, Nick Pavlica <li...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The need for this was highlighted again
> when a speaker at node summit mocked the guy on the couch design (
> http://nodesummit.com/media/node-js-at-scale/ <http://nodesummit.com/media/node-js-at-scale/>). It was playful and fun,
> but was a good reminder that change is needed. I think that you have a
> great plan, and I hope that it's adopted. Please let me know if there is
> anything that I can do to help.
>
> Thanks!
> -- Nick Pavlica
I hav been very curious about the reported damage that the suggestive posture of the guy on the couch represents.
I didnt find any mocking here, rather a positive moment at 9:50 with applause
That’s the kind of friendly atmosphere the designer of this logo should be proud of
Johs
Re: Designs and decision making
Posted by Nick Pavlica <li...@gmail.com>.
Noah,
Thanks for working to clarify the design and branding process, it will
really help this effort forward. The need for this was highlighted again
when a speaker at node summit mocked the guy on the couch design (
http://nodesummit.com/media/node-js-at-scale/). It was playful and fun,
but was a good reminder that change is needed. I think that you have a
great plan, and I hope that it's adopted. Please let me know if there is
anything that I can do to help.
Thanks!
-- Nick Pavlica
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
> Hi Noah,
> > On 13 Mar 2015, at 20:00, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On 13 March 2015 at 09:42, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Brand management at the PMC level is missing
> >
> > What makes you say this?
> This was not meant as a negative to any person, certainly not to you.
> If the PMC has mandated you to take this, you are the brand manager.
>
> I tried to drill down from
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html <
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html> to find out if there
> was any formalized, specific responsibilities and found none.
> That means that it falls under the responsibility of the PMC.
> They are the de facto brand managers, I agree that they are the decision
> makers
> Changing the brand is as important as a new release go/no-go
> But, and this was my point, I dont find Brand management recorded as a
> specific responsibility.
> It’s all code, and who believes that branding isn’t important these days?
>
> >
> >> To ask this list to pick a designer for them is not a step forward
> >
> > Well, I more meant to suggest that anyone who wishes to be on "the
> > design team" step forward. And then we let whatever team assembles
> > itself to just go at it, taking feedback from the community, and
> > getting the final approval from the PMC.
> >
> > I actually think that this will reduce work, and reduce the peanut
> > gallery affect. I'm not sure that design competitions are the best
> > model for a brand refresh.
>
> Competition was maybe not the best term.
> Let the designers finalize proposals to choose from, one per designer and
> stage it so that it is for real, not this endless row of back and forth
> discussions that lead nowhere.
> For designers to make a serious contributions they need to take input from
> "the client” and deliver a proper proposal.
> Deadline for submission of proposals and then a serious eval process will
> move this forward.
> >
> >> 4) PMC invite Shane Curcuru for advice on this and they decide - he is
> formally responsible for what we are discussing
> >
> > The PMC is the "client" here. It's our call. Shane is there to assist
> > us with trademarks. :)
> I understand.
> Again, my point was to look at who have formal responsibility and I think
> he could advice and at the same time discover something important about
> brand management.
> It looks to me like this is unchartered waters in ASF.
> Learning how to engage designers as contributers, if there are any best
> practice on what we discuss here etc
> > --
> > Noah Slater
> > https://twitter.com/nslater
>
>
> This discussion on process is valuable in my opinion.
> johs
Re: Designs and decision making
Posted by Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org>.
Hi Noah,
I think having all the people that have submitted a logo collaborate would be fantastic. Its not always easy working together but I think that would work much better than a ‘design competition’ and even better than the current process of doing nothing.
Cheers
Garren
> On 14 Mar 2015, at 2:38 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> To clarify, I want the process to be open to anybody! Literally:
> anybody who's interested ought to express an interest. That would be
> fantastic!! But once that's done, I think that team should collaborate
> as a unit.
>
> So far, all we've had is the occasional person share an idea with the
> list, and then a bunch of people express an opinion. It's great that
> people are interested and are contributing. But that's not going to go
> anywhere, and we're never going to reach agreement on anything.
>
> We need a team of people who feel empowered to just work on this
> together, iterate on their ideas, taking input as necessary, and then
> to present a final "this is what we want to go with" to the PMC.
>
>
> On 14 March 2015 at 13:33, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>> The PMC is responsible for branding, as outlined in our bylaws:
>>
>> http://couchdb.apache.org/bylaws.html#pmc
>>
>> The PMC (myself and others) have been doing branding work, and talking
>> about branding for many years. So this is not uncharted waters for us.
>> Indeed, the current design was born of similar efforts a few years
>> ago.
>>
>> In fact, it is this experience that is guiding me (and others on the
>> PMC) when we say that we do not want to open up the design process to
>> everyone, like we might do with a patch. Because we know what happens
>> when you do that. We've had a number of design efforts dead in the
>> water because people discussed it ad nauseam on the list.
>>
>> Doing design in OSS is different than writing code. It does not lend
>> itself well to peer review in the same way that a patch does. Because
>> *everybody* and their dog feels like they have an opinion on a design.
>>
>> That's why it's my preference is that people interested in working on
>> a brand/design refresh collaborate amongst themselves, taking input
>> from the community, and getting the final sign-off from the PMC.
>>
>>
>> On 13 March 2015 at 20:37, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Noah,
>>>> On 13 Mar 2015, at 20:00, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> On 13 March 2015 at 09:42, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brand management at the PMC level is missing
>>>>
>>>> What makes you say this?
>>> This was not meant as a negative to any person, certainly not to you.
>>> If the PMC has mandated you to take this, you are the brand manager.
>>>
>>> I tried to drill down from http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html <http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html> to find out if there was any formalized, specific responsibilities and found none.
>>> That means that it falls under the responsibility of the PMC.
>>> They are the de facto brand managers, I agree that they are the decision makers
>>> Changing the brand is as important as a new release go/no-go
>>> But, and this was my point, I dont find Brand management recorded as a specific responsibility.
>>> It’s all code, and who believes that branding isn’t important these days?
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> To ask this list to pick a designer for them is not a step forward
>>>>
>>>> Well, I more meant to suggest that anyone who wishes to be on "the
>>>> design team" step forward. And then we let whatever team assembles
>>>> itself to just go at it, taking feedback from the community, and
>>>> getting the final approval from the PMC.
>>>>
>>>> I actually think that this will reduce work, and reduce the peanut
>>>> gallery affect. I'm not sure that design competitions are the best
>>>> model for a brand refresh.
>>>
>>> Competition was maybe not the best term.
>>> Let the designers finalize proposals to choose from, one per designer and stage it so that it is for real, not this endless row of back and forth discussions that lead nowhere.
>>> For designers to make a serious contributions they need to take input from "the client” and deliver a proper proposal.
>>> Deadline for submission of proposals and then a serious eval process will move this forward.
>>>>
>>>>> 4) PMC invite Shane Curcuru for advice on this and they decide - he is formally responsible for what we are discussing
>>>>
>>>> The PMC is the "client" here. It's our call. Shane is there to assist
>>>> us with trademarks. :)
>>> I understand.
>>> Again, my point was to look at who have formal responsibility and I think he could advice and at the same time discover something important about brand management.
>>> It looks to me like this is unchartered waters in ASF.
>>> Learning how to engage designers as contributers, if there are any best practice on what we discuss here etc
>>>> --
>>>> Noah Slater
>>>> https://twitter.com/nslater
>>>
>>>
>>> This discussion on process is valuable in my opinion.
>>> johs
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Noah Slater
>> https://twitter.com/nslater
>
>
>
> --
> Noah Slater
> https://twitter.com/nslater
Re: Designs and decision making
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
To clarify, I want the process to be open to anybody! Literally:
anybody who's interested ought to express an interest. That would be
fantastic!! But once that's done, I think that team should collaborate
as a unit.
So far, all we've had is the occasional person share an idea with the
list, and then a bunch of people express an opinion. It's great that
people are interested and are contributing. But that's not going to go
anywhere, and we're never going to reach agreement on anything.
We need a team of people who feel empowered to just work on this
together, iterate on their ideas, taking input as necessary, and then
to present a final "this is what we want to go with" to the PMC.
On 14 March 2015 at 13:33, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> The PMC is responsible for branding, as outlined in our bylaws:
>
> http://couchdb.apache.org/bylaws.html#pmc
>
> The PMC (myself and others) have been doing branding work, and talking
> about branding for many years. So this is not uncharted waters for us.
> Indeed, the current design was born of similar efforts a few years
> ago.
>
> In fact, it is this experience that is guiding me (and others on the
> PMC) when we say that we do not want to open up the design process to
> everyone, like we might do with a patch. Because we know what happens
> when you do that. We've had a number of design efforts dead in the
> water because people discussed it ad nauseam on the list.
>
> Doing design in OSS is different than writing code. It does not lend
> itself well to peer review in the same way that a patch does. Because
> *everybody* and their dog feels like they have an opinion on a design.
>
> That's why it's my preference is that people interested in working on
> a brand/design refresh collaborate amongst themselves, taking input
> from the community, and getting the final sign-off from the PMC.
>
>
> On 13 March 2015 at 20:37, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>> Hi Noah,
>>> On 13 Mar 2015, at 20:00, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> On 13 March 2015 at 09:42, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Brand management at the PMC level is missing
>>>
>>> What makes you say this?
>> This was not meant as a negative to any person, certainly not to you.
>> If the PMC has mandated you to take this, you are the brand manager.
>>
>> I tried to drill down from http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html <http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html> to find out if there was any formalized, specific responsibilities and found none.
>> That means that it falls under the responsibility of the PMC.
>> They are the de facto brand managers, I agree that they are the decision makers
>> Changing the brand is as important as a new release go/no-go
>> But, and this was my point, I dont find Brand management recorded as a specific responsibility.
>> It’s all code, and who believes that branding isn’t important these days?
>>
>>>
>>>> To ask this list to pick a designer for them is not a step forward
>>>
>>> Well, I more meant to suggest that anyone who wishes to be on "the
>>> design team" step forward. And then we let whatever team assembles
>>> itself to just go at it, taking feedback from the community, and
>>> getting the final approval from the PMC.
>>>
>>> I actually think that this will reduce work, and reduce the peanut
>>> gallery affect. I'm not sure that design competitions are the best
>>> model for a brand refresh.
>>
>> Competition was maybe not the best term.
>> Let the designers finalize proposals to choose from, one per designer and stage it so that it is for real, not this endless row of back and forth discussions that lead nowhere.
>> For designers to make a serious contributions they need to take input from "the client” and deliver a proper proposal.
>> Deadline for submission of proposals and then a serious eval process will move this forward.
>>>
>>>> 4) PMC invite Shane Curcuru for advice on this and they decide - he is formally responsible for what we are discussing
>>>
>>> The PMC is the "client" here. It's our call. Shane is there to assist
>>> us with trademarks. :)
>> I understand.
>> Again, my point was to look at who have formal responsibility and I think he could advice and at the same time discover something important about brand management.
>> It looks to me like this is unchartered waters in ASF.
>> Learning how to engage designers as contributers, if there are any best practice on what we discuss here etc
>>> --
>>> Noah Slater
>>> https://twitter.com/nslater
>>
>>
>> This discussion on process is valuable in my opinion.
>> johs
>
>
>
> --
> Noah Slater
> https://twitter.com/nslater
--
Noah Slater
https://twitter.com/nslater
Re: Designs and decision making
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure there's any record wrt the existing logo
and brand. This was before we moved to Apache, and we were using some
old forum software.
And again, unfortunately, a lot of the branding conversation has been
reactive, and on a private list. i.e. What do we do about Foo Corp
who's causing us some brand problems. :)
There's also a number of conversations that happened off-list wrt what
our new direction should be. In the past, I have tried to bring those
to the list. If you search the archives for "What's our why?" you'll
find one of the most prominent ones.
I have more notes. I promised Jenn that I would share them, and I will
do so this week.
On 16 March 2015 at 08:25, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
> Thanks for this, Noah
> I fully support the “Doing design in OSS is different than writing code.”
> I clearly missed the mandate in the CouchDB bylaws (browsed ASF general docs only)
>
> It would be really interesting to here more about the process that led to the existing logo and slogan.
> Where there any brief to start with, e.g. reasoning about then need for change?
> Any milestones to facilitate a step-wise progress?
> I acknowledge that you are exercising brand management by laying out some process guidlines, and my comments are not meant as criticism.
> I dont see the record of previous experiences, “doing branding work” and “talking about” still leaves this uncharted to me.
>
> johs
>
>
>> On 14 Mar 2015, at 13:33, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> The PMC is responsible for branding, as outlined in our bylaws:
>>
>> http://couchdb.apache.org/bylaws.html#pmc
>>
>> The PMC (myself and others) have been doing branding work, and talking
>> about branding for many years. So this is not uncharted waters for us.
>> Indeed, the current design was born of similar efforts a few years
>> ago.
>>
>> In fact, it is this experience that is guiding me (and others on the
>> PMC) when we say that we do not want to open up the design process to
>> everyone, like we might do with a patch. Because we know what happens
>> when you do that. We've had a number of design efforts dead in the
>> water because people discussed it ad nauseam on the list.
>>
>> Doing design in OSS is different than writing code. It does not lend
>> itself well to peer review in the same way that a patch does. Because
>> *everybody* and their dog feels like they have an opinion on a design.
>>
>> That's why it's my preference is that people interested in working on
>> a brand/design refresh collaborate amongst themselves, taking input
>> from the community, and getting the final sign-off from the PMC.
>>
>>
>> On 13 March 2015 at 20:37, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Noah,
>>>> On 13 Mar 2015, at 20:00, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> On 13 March 2015 at 09:42, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Brand management at the PMC level is missing
>>>>
>>>> What makes you say this?
>>> This was not meant as a negative to any person, certainly not to you.
>>> If the PMC has mandated you to take this, you are the brand manager.
>>>
>>> I tried to drill down from http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html <http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html> to find out if there was any formalized, specific responsibilities and found none.
>>> That means that it falls under the responsibility of the PMC.
>>> They are the de facto brand managers, I agree that they are the decision makers
>>> Changing the brand is as important as a new release go/no-go
>>> But, and this was my point, I dont find Brand management recorded as a specific responsibility.
>>> It’s all code, and who believes that branding isn’t important these days?
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> To ask this list to pick a designer for them is not a step forward
>>>>
>>>> Well, I more meant to suggest that anyone who wishes to be on "the
>>>> design team" step forward. And then we let whatever team assembles
>>>> itself to just go at it, taking feedback from the community, and
>>>> getting the final approval from the PMC.
>>>>
>>>> I actually think that this will reduce work, and reduce the peanut
>>>> gallery affect. I'm not sure that design competitions are the best
>>>> model for a brand refresh.
>>>
>>> Competition was maybe not the best term.
>>> Let the designers finalize proposals to choose from, one per designer and stage it so that it is for real, not this endless row of back and forth discussions that lead nowhere.
>>> For designers to make a serious contributions they need to take input from "the client” and deliver a proper proposal.
>>> Deadline for submission of proposals and then a serious eval process will move this forward.
>>>>
>>>>> 4) PMC invite Shane Curcuru for advice on this and they decide - he is formally responsible for what we are discussing
>>>>
>>>> The PMC is the "client" here. It's our call. Shane is there to assist
>>>> us with trademarks. :)
>>> I understand.
>>> Again, my point was to look at who have formal responsibility and I think he could advice and at the same time discover something important about brand management.
>>> It looks to me like this is unchartered waters in ASF.
>>> Learning how to engage designers as contributers, if there are any best practice on what we discuss here etc
>>>> --
>>>> Noah Slater
>>>> https://twitter.com/nslater
>>>
>>>
>>> This discussion on process is valuable in my opinion.
>>> johs
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Noah Slater
>> https://twitter.com/nslater
>
--
Noah Slater
https://twitter.com/nslater
Re: Designs and decision making
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
Thanks for this, Noah
I fully support the “Doing design in OSS is different than writing code.”
I clearly missed the mandate in the CouchDB bylaws (browsed ASF general docs only)
It would be really interesting to here more about the process that led to the existing logo and slogan.
Where there any brief to start with, e.g. reasoning about then need for change?
Any milestones to facilitate a step-wise progress?
I acknowledge that you are exercising brand management by laying out some process guidlines, and my comments are not meant as criticism.
I dont see the record of previous experiences, “doing branding work” and “talking about” still leaves this uncharted to me.
johs
> On 14 Mar 2015, at 13:33, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> The PMC is responsible for branding, as outlined in our bylaws:
>
> http://couchdb.apache.org/bylaws.html#pmc
>
> The PMC (myself and others) have been doing branding work, and talking
> about branding for many years. So this is not uncharted waters for us.
> Indeed, the current design was born of similar efforts a few years
> ago.
>
> In fact, it is this experience that is guiding me (and others on the
> PMC) when we say that we do not want to open up the design process to
> everyone, like we might do with a patch. Because we know what happens
> when you do that. We've had a number of design efforts dead in the
> water because people discussed it ad nauseam on the list.
>
> Doing design in OSS is different than writing code. It does not lend
> itself well to peer review in the same way that a patch does. Because
> *everybody* and their dog feels like they have an opinion on a design.
>
> That's why it's my preference is that people interested in working on
> a brand/design refresh collaborate amongst themselves, taking input
> from the community, and getting the final sign-off from the PMC.
>
>
> On 13 March 2015 at 20:37, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>> Hi Noah,
>>> On 13 Mar 2015, at 20:00, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> On 13 March 2015 at 09:42, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Brand management at the PMC level is missing
>>>
>>> What makes you say this?
>> This was not meant as a negative to any person, certainly not to you.
>> If the PMC has mandated you to take this, you are the brand manager.
>>
>> I tried to drill down from http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html <http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html> to find out if there was any formalized, specific responsibilities and found none.
>> That means that it falls under the responsibility of the PMC.
>> They are the de facto brand managers, I agree that they are the decision makers
>> Changing the brand is as important as a new release go/no-go
>> But, and this was my point, I dont find Brand management recorded as a specific responsibility.
>> It’s all code, and who believes that branding isn’t important these days?
>>
>>>
>>>> To ask this list to pick a designer for them is not a step forward
>>>
>>> Well, I more meant to suggest that anyone who wishes to be on "the
>>> design team" step forward. And then we let whatever team assembles
>>> itself to just go at it, taking feedback from the community, and
>>> getting the final approval from the PMC.
>>>
>>> I actually think that this will reduce work, and reduce the peanut
>>> gallery affect. I'm not sure that design competitions are the best
>>> model for a brand refresh.
>>
>> Competition was maybe not the best term.
>> Let the designers finalize proposals to choose from, one per designer and stage it so that it is for real, not this endless row of back and forth discussions that lead nowhere.
>> For designers to make a serious contributions they need to take input from "the client” and deliver a proper proposal.
>> Deadline for submission of proposals and then a serious eval process will move this forward.
>>>
>>>> 4) PMC invite Shane Curcuru for advice on this and they decide - he is formally responsible for what we are discussing
>>>
>>> The PMC is the "client" here. It's our call. Shane is there to assist
>>> us with trademarks. :)
>> I understand.
>> Again, my point was to look at who have formal responsibility and I think he could advice and at the same time discover something important about brand management.
>> It looks to me like this is unchartered waters in ASF.
>> Learning how to engage designers as contributers, if there are any best practice on what we discuss here etc
>>> --
>>> Noah Slater
>>> https://twitter.com/nslater
>>
>>
>> This discussion on process is valuable in my opinion.
>> johs
>
>
>
> --
> Noah Slater
> https://twitter.com/nslater
Re: Designs and decision making
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
The PMC is responsible for branding, as outlined in our bylaws:
http://couchdb.apache.org/bylaws.html#pmc
The PMC (myself and others) have been doing branding work, and talking
about branding for many years. So this is not uncharted waters for us.
Indeed, the current design was born of similar efforts a few years
ago.
In fact, it is this experience that is guiding me (and others on the
PMC) when we say that we do not want to open up the design process to
everyone, like we might do with a patch. Because we know what happens
when you do that. We've had a number of design efforts dead in the
water because people discussed it ad nauseam on the list.
Doing design in OSS is different than writing code. It does not lend
itself well to peer review in the same way that a patch does. Because
*everybody* and their dog feels like they have an opinion on a design.
That's why it's my preference is that people interested in working on
a brand/design refresh collaborate amongst themselves, taking input
from the community, and getting the final sign-off from the PMC.
On 13 March 2015 at 20:37, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
> Hi Noah,
>> On 13 Mar 2015, at 20:00, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On 13 March 2015 at 09:42, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Brand management at the PMC level is missing
>>
>> What makes you say this?
> This was not meant as a negative to any person, certainly not to you.
> If the PMC has mandated you to take this, you are the brand manager.
>
> I tried to drill down from http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html <http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html> to find out if there was any formalized, specific responsibilities and found none.
> That means that it falls under the responsibility of the PMC.
> They are the de facto brand managers, I agree that they are the decision makers
> Changing the brand is as important as a new release go/no-go
> But, and this was my point, I dont find Brand management recorded as a specific responsibility.
> It’s all code, and who believes that branding isn’t important these days?
>
>>
>>> To ask this list to pick a designer for them is not a step forward
>>
>> Well, I more meant to suggest that anyone who wishes to be on "the
>> design team" step forward. And then we let whatever team assembles
>> itself to just go at it, taking feedback from the community, and
>> getting the final approval from the PMC.
>>
>> I actually think that this will reduce work, and reduce the peanut
>> gallery affect. I'm not sure that design competitions are the best
>> model for a brand refresh.
>
> Competition was maybe not the best term.
> Let the designers finalize proposals to choose from, one per designer and stage it so that it is for real, not this endless row of back and forth discussions that lead nowhere.
> For designers to make a serious contributions they need to take input from "the client” and deliver a proper proposal.
> Deadline for submission of proposals and then a serious eval process will move this forward.
>>
>>> 4) PMC invite Shane Curcuru for advice on this and they decide - he is formally responsible for what we are discussing
>>
>> The PMC is the "client" here. It's our call. Shane is there to assist
>> us with trademarks. :)
> I understand.
> Again, my point was to look at who have formal responsibility and I think he could advice and at the same time discover something important about brand management.
> It looks to me like this is unchartered waters in ASF.
> Learning how to engage designers as contributers, if there are any best practice on what we discuss here etc
>> --
>> Noah Slater
>> https://twitter.com/nslater
>
>
> This discussion on process is valuable in my opinion.
> johs
--
Noah Slater
https://twitter.com/nslater
Re: Designs and decision making
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
Hi Noah,
> On 13 Mar 2015, at 20:00, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 13 March 2015 at 09:42, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
>
>> Brand management at the PMC level is missing
>
> What makes you say this?
This was not meant as a negative to any person, certainly not to you.
If the PMC has mandated you to take this, you are the brand manager.
I tried to drill down from http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html <http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html> to find out if there was any formalized, specific responsibilities and found none.
That means that it falls under the responsibility of the PMC.
They are the de facto brand managers, I agree that they are the decision makers
Changing the brand is as important as a new release go/no-go
But, and this was my point, I dont find Brand management recorded as a specific responsibility.
It’s all code, and who believes that branding isn’t important these days?
>
>> To ask this list to pick a designer for them is not a step forward
>
> Well, I more meant to suggest that anyone who wishes to be on "the
> design team" step forward. And then we let whatever team assembles
> itself to just go at it, taking feedback from the community, and
> getting the final approval from the PMC.
>
> I actually think that this will reduce work, and reduce the peanut
> gallery affect. I'm not sure that design competitions are the best
> model for a brand refresh.
Competition was maybe not the best term.
Let the designers finalize proposals to choose from, one per designer and stage it so that it is for real, not this endless row of back and forth discussions that lead nowhere.
For designers to make a serious contributions they need to take input from "the client” and deliver a proper proposal.
Deadline for submission of proposals and then a serious eval process will move this forward.
>
>> 4) PMC invite Shane Curcuru for advice on this and they decide - he is formally responsible for what we are discussing
>
> The PMC is the "client" here. It's our call. Shane is there to assist
> us with trademarks. :)
I understand.
Again, my point was to look at who have formal responsibility and I think he could advice and at the same time discover something important about brand management.
It looks to me like this is unchartered waters in ASF.
Learning how to engage designers as contributers, if there are any best practice on what we discuss here etc
> --
> Noah Slater
> https://twitter.com/nslater
This discussion on process is valuable in my opinion.
johs
Re: Designs and decision making
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
On 13 March 2015 at 09:42, Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com> wrote:
> Brand management at the PMC level is missing
What makes you say this?
> To ask this list to pick a designer for them is not a step forward
Well, I more meant to suggest that anyone who wishes to be on "the
design team" step forward. And then we let whatever team assembles
itself to just go at it, taking feedback from the community, and
getting the final approval from the PMC.
I actually think that this will reduce work, and reduce the peanut
gallery affect. I'm not sure that design competitions are the best
model for a brand refresh.
> 4) PMC invite Shane Curcuru for advice on this and they decide - he is formally responsible for what we are discussing
The PMC is the "client" here. It's our call. Shane is there to assist
us with trademarks. :)
--
Noah Slater
https://twitter.com/nslater
Re: Designs and decision making
Posted by Johs Ensby <jo...@b2w.com>.
Andy,
Design by committee is a bad idea, I agree
Designer by community is an even worse idea when that committee is self appointed.
Brand management at the PMC level is missing, but they still are de de facto brand manager.
To ask this list to pick a designer for them is not a step forward.
This is my suggestion which I think would be respectful to the members of this list and lead to more designers joining the list:
1) PMC issue a design competition - brief and open to get as wide material as possible to select from
2) anyone on this list can participate with one proposals
3) proposals are published by the designers and discussion take place here
4) PMC invite Shane Curcuru for advice on this and they decide - he is formally responsible for what we are discussing
Johs
> On 13 Mar 2015, at 08:54, Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 12 March 2015 at 23:37, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> It was brought up on the private list that someone ought to clarify
>> how we plan to make decisions about design related stuff.
>>
>> Having a place (page) where we can collect design ideas, branding
>> ideas, and logo ideas is neat. It allows us to get the feedback from
>> the community. But we should not run this as a design by committee.
>>
>> Avoiding that is easy. The community selects a person or person(s) to
>> do the design. That person is then entrusted to do the stuff. No
>> voting necessary. And that person can collect feedback however they
>> want.
>>
>> If the person or person(s) decides on a design/brand/logo that the PMC
>> does not want to move forward with, the PMC can turn it down, like a
>> typical "client" situation.
>>
>> It's important to remember that we try to avoid voting wherever
>> possible. :) So if this is what we're doing, let's just do it. Let's
>> nominate the designers and let them run with it.
>>
>> Some analogies for the roles:
>>
>> - Designer or design team: agency producing the design work
>> - Community (people on mailing lists): focus groups providing feedback
>> (and nothing more than that. Opinions to be taken as feedback only)
>> - PMC: client, gives the thumbs up or thumbs down
>>
>> Make sense? :)
>
>
> I like the idea. Thanks and +1
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
>
> --
> Andy Wenk
> Hamburg - Germany
> RockIt!
>
> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>
> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Designs and decision making
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org>.
On 12 March 2015 at 23:37, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> It was brought up on the private list that someone ought to clarify
> how we plan to make decisions about design related stuff.
>
> Having a place (page) where we can collect design ideas, branding
> ideas, and logo ideas is neat. It allows us to get the feedback from
> the community. But we should not run this as a design by committee.
>
> Avoiding that is easy. The community selects a person or person(s) to
> do the design. That person is then entrusted to do the stuff. No
> voting necessary. And that person can collect feedback however they
> want.
>
> If the person or person(s) decides on a design/brand/logo that the PMC
> does not want to move forward with, the PMC can turn it down, like a
> typical "client" situation.
>
> It's important to remember that we try to avoid voting wherever
> possible. :) So if this is what we're doing, let's just do it. Let's
> nominate the designers and let them run with it.
>
> Some analogies for the roles:
>
> - Designer or design team: agency producing the design work
> - Community (people on mailing lists): focus groups providing feedback
> (and nothing more than that. Opinions to be taken as feedback only)
> - PMC: client, gives the thumbs up or thumbs down
>
> Make sense? :)
I like the idea. Thanks and +1
Cheers
Andy
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc