You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@tapestry.apache.org by Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com> on 2014/07/19 10:02:28 UTC
Rename tapestry-ioc to hivemind
I asked this question before I was a committer and generally got good
feedback but it never really went anywhere.
I think having tapestry-ioc and tapestry (the web framework) is a bit
confusing. I also feel that it hinders the promotion / adoption of
tapestry-ioc as a standalone product.
So, I have some questions to consider.
1. Do you agree that tapestry-ioc should be renamed?
2. Do you think it should be called hivemind?
3. Do you have an alternative name?
4. Should a rename be done as part of 5.4 or 5.5?
If the feedback to this thread forms a general consensus, I'll put it to a
proper vote.
Lance.
Re: Rename tapestry-ioc to hivemind
Posted by Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <th...@gmail.com>.
Now with structured answers, leaving the explanations for that other
answer I've posted:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 05:02:28 -0300, Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> So, I have some questions to consider.
> 1. Do you agree that tapestry-ioc should be renamed?
No, as renames creates confusions by themselves. There's a lot of content
on the Web, specially posts in mailing lists and blogs, referring to it as
Tapestry-IoC and newcomers would overlook it.
> 2. Do you think it should be called hivemind?
No, to avoid confusion with the old Hivemind, which is very different from
Tapestry-IoC.
> 3. Do you have an alternative name?
If the team decides to rename it, I'd suggest Collective, to keep the
Hivemind theme without reusing the name.
> 4. Should a rename be done as part of 5.4 or 5.5?
No.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Tapestry, Java and Hibernate consultant and developer
http://machina.com.br
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Rename tapestry-ioc to hivemind
Posted by Dimitris Zenios <di...@gmail.com>.
I like the idea of renaming the project.Maybe Hivemind 2 since the original
hivemind is retired as specified by its website.
In the end though if we want greater adoption it should separate its self
from the tapestry build / release
On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:26 PM, Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> Hi Dimitris, I'm not (at this stage) suggesting to move tapestry-ioc
> outside of the tapestry build / release. I'm just suggesting a rename at
> the moment and it can live inside the tapestry build, similar to plastic.
> On 19 Jul 2014 09:11, "Dimitris Zenios" <di...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I use tapestry-ioc in many projects outside of tapestry web framework.
> >
> > I agree that it should be taken out of the tapestry-web and form its own
> > project.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I asked this question before I was a committer and generally got good
> > > feedback but it never really went anywhere.
> > >
> > > I think having tapestry-ioc and tapestry (the web framework) is a bit
> > > confusing. I also feel that it hinders the promotion / adoption of
> > > tapestry-ioc as a standalone product.
> > >
> > > So, I have some questions to consider.
> > > 1. Do you agree that tapestry-ioc should be renamed?
> > > 2. Do you think it should be called hivemind?
> > > 3. Do you have an alternative name?
> > > 4. Should a rename be done as part of 5.4 or 5.5?
> > >
> > > If the feedback to this thread forms a general consensus, I'll put it
> to
> > a
> > > proper vote.
> > >
> > > Lance.
> > >
> >
>
Re: Rename tapestry-ioc to hivemind
Posted by Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>.
Hi Dimitris, I'm not (at this stage) suggesting to move tapestry-ioc
outside of the tapestry build / release. I'm just suggesting a rename at
the moment and it can live inside the tapestry build, similar to plastic.
On 19 Jul 2014 09:11, "Dimitris Zenios" <di...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I use tapestry-ioc in many projects outside of tapestry web framework.
>
> I agree that it should be taken out of the tapestry-web and form its own
> project.
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I asked this question before I was a committer and generally got good
> > feedback but it never really went anywhere.
> >
> > I think having tapestry-ioc and tapestry (the web framework) is a bit
> > confusing. I also feel that it hinders the promotion / adoption of
> > tapestry-ioc as a standalone product.
> >
> > So, I have some questions to consider.
> > 1. Do you agree that tapestry-ioc should be renamed?
> > 2. Do you think it should be called hivemind?
> > 3. Do you have an alternative name?
> > 4. Should a rename be done as part of 5.4 or 5.5?
> >
> > If the feedback to this thread forms a general consensus, I'll put it to
> a
> > proper vote.
> >
> > Lance.
> >
>
Re: Rename tapestry-ioc to hivemind
Posted by Dimitris Zenios <di...@gmail.com>.
I use tapestry-ioc in many projects outside of tapestry web framework.
I agree that it should be taken out of the tapestry-web and form its own
project.
On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> I asked this question before I was a committer and generally got good
> feedback but it never really went anywhere.
>
> I think having tapestry-ioc and tapestry (the web framework) is a bit
> confusing. I also feel that it hinders the promotion / adoption of
> tapestry-ioc as a standalone product.
>
> So, I have some questions to consider.
> 1. Do you agree that tapestry-ioc should be renamed?
> 2. Do you think it should be called hivemind?
> 3. Do you have an alternative name?
> 4. Should a rename be done as part of 5.4 or 5.5?
>
> If the feedback to this thread forms a general consensus, I'll put it to a
> proper vote.
>
> Lance.
>
Re: Rename tapestry-ioc to hivemind
Posted by Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>.
As discussed, I'm not suggesting to move the project outside of the
tapestry build / release. I'm also not tied to the hivemind name.
I constantly find myself saying tapestry (the web framework) and
tapestry-ioc on the user's list. A rename would help remove this ambiguity.
On 21 Jul 2014 11:42, "Bob Harner" <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think it's a good idea to resurrect old software product names,
> because you bring with them all the old connotations. To the extent people
> know about Hivemind, they think of the product as old, out of date & dead.
>
> Also, there were good reasons why Tapestry-IOC was not treated as a
> distinct project. As our docs say: "The difficulty of managing the release
> schedules of two complex frameworks proved to be an issue."
> On Jul 21, 2014 3:22 AM, "Jochen Kemnade" <jo...@eddyson.de>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Am 19.07.2014 10:02, schrieb Lance Java:
> >
> >> I think having tapestry-ioc and tapestry (the web framework) is a bit
> >> confusing. I also feel that it hinders the promotion / adoption of
> >> tapestry-ioc as a standalone product.
> >>
> >
> > I see your point. I don't really have a strong opinion about that matter,
> > but here we go.
> >
> > 1. Do you agree that tapestry-ioc should be renamed?
> >>
> >
> > No. That's in terms of "should", not "could". I'm not against a rename, I
> > just don't think it's necessary.
> >
> > 2. Do you think it should be called hivemind?
> >>
> >
> > No. I also think that the name hivemind is taken and we shouldn't
> > resurrect it. People would probably start to dig out old documentation
> and
> > mailing list threads.
> >
> > 3. Do you have an alternative name?
> >>
> >
> > What about something with a relation to the word "tapestry"? Something
> > like cotton, cloth, fabric (hm, I like that one, but there's at least
> > http://www.fabfile.org/ and http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/fabric/).
> >
> > 4. Should a rename be done as part of 5.4 or 5.5?
> >>
> >
> > I assume that's an XOR. ;-) I guess it depends on how thorough we want
> the
> > change to be. Do we also want to rename all the packages and classes with
> > "IOC" in them? Then we'd probably even have to wait for 6.0. If it's just
> > the name and the documentation, I think we could do it for 5.4.
> >
> > Jochen
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
>
Re: Rename tapestry-ioc to hivemind
Posted by Bob Harner <bo...@gmail.com>.
I don't think it's a good idea to resurrect old software product names,
because you bring with them all the old connotations. To the extent people
know about Hivemind, they think of the product as old, out of date & dead.
Also, there were good reasons why Tapestry-IOC was not treated as a
distinct project. As our docs say: "The difficulty of managing the release
schedules of two complex frameworks proved to be an issue."
On Jul 21, 2014 3:22 AM, "Jochen Kemnade" <jo...@eddyson.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Am 19.07.2014 10:02, schrieb Lance Java:
>
>> I think having tapestry-ioc and tapestry (the web framework) is a bit
>> confusing. I also feel that it hinders the promotion / adoption of
>> tapestry-ioc as a standalone product.
>>
>
> I see your point. I don't really have a strong opinion about that matter,
> but here we go.
>
> 1. Do you agree that tapestry-ioc should be renamed?
>>
>
> No. That's in terms of "should", not "could". I'm not against a rename, I
> just don't think it's necessary.
>
> 2. Do you think it should be called hivemind?
>>
>
> No. I also think that the name hivemind is taken and we shouldn't
> resurrect it. People would probably start to dig out old documentation and
> mailing list threads.
>
> 3. Do you have an alternative name?
>>
>
> What about something with a relation to the word "tapestry"? Something
> like cotton, cloth, fabric (hm, I like that one, but there's at least
> http://www.fabfile.org/ and http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/fabric/).
>
> 4. Should a rename be done as part of 5.4 or 5.5?
>>
>
> I assume that's an XOR. ;-) I guess it depends on how thorough we want the
> change to be. Do we also want to rename all the packages and classes with
> "IOC" in them? Then we'd probably even have to wait for 6.0. If it's just
> the name and the documentation, I think we could do it for 5.4.
>
> Jochen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
Re: Rename tapestry-ioc to hivemind
Posted by Jochen Kemnade <jo...@eddyson.de>.
Hi,
Am 19.07.2014 10:02, schrieb Lance Java:
> I think having tapestry-ioc and tapestry (the web framework) is a bit
> confusing. I also feel that it hinders the promotion / adoption of
> tapestry-ioc as a standalone product.
I see your point. I don't really have a strong opinion about that
matter, but here we go.
> 1. Do you agree that tapestry-ioc should be renamed?
No. That's in terms of "should", not "could". I'm not against a rename,
I just don't think it's necessary.
> 2. Do you think it should be called hivemind?
No. I also think that the name hivemind is taken and we shouldn't
resurrect it. People would probably start to dig out old documentation
and mailing list threads.
> 3. Do you have an alternative name?
What about something with a relation to the word "tapestry"? Something
like cotton, cloth, fabric (hm, I like that one, but there's at least
http://www.fabfile.org/ and http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/fabric/).
> 4. Should a rename be done as part of 5.4 or 5.5?
I assume that's an XOR. ;-) I guess it depends on how thorough we want
the change to be. Do we also want to rename all the packages and classes
with "IOC" in them? Then we'd probably even have to wait for 6.0. If
it's just the name and the documentation, I think we could do it for 5.4.
Jochen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Rename tapestry-ioc to hivemind
Posted by Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>.
Ok, I'll have to admit defeat and let the ambiguity continue...
;)
On 21 Jul 2014 17:08, "Howard Lewis Ship" <hl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think Thiago's summary ... that tapestry-ioc is five years old, so
> renaming it will cause more confusion than good, is right on the money. I
> would not support a rename.
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 6:51 AM, Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <
> thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:46:00 -0300, Lance Java <
> lance.java@googlemail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > How's about tapioca as a name suggestion? It has references to tapestry
> >> and ioc. :)
> >>
> >
> > That's making me hungry and it's not lunch time here yet! :D
> >
> > A quick Google search for "tapioca framework" shows a number of existing
> > stuff with that name, though, even a Java IoC framework:
> > http://code.google.com/p/tapioca/.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> > Tapestry, Java and Hibernate consultant and developer
> > http://machina.com.br
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
>
> Creator of Apache Tapestry
>
> The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
> learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
>
> (971) 678-5210
> http://howardlewisship.com
> @hlship
>
Re: Rename tapestry-ioc to hivemind
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
I think Thiago's summary ... that tapestry-ioc is five years old, so
renaming it will cause more confusion than good, is right on the money. I
would not support a rename.
On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 6:51 AM, Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <
thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:46:00 -0300, Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>
> How's about tapioca as a name suggestion? It has references to tapestry
>> and ioc. :)
>>
>
> That's making me hungry and it's not lunch time here yet! :D
>
> A quick Google search for "tapioca framework" shows a number of existing
> stuff with that name, though, even a Java IoC framework:
> http://code.google.com/p/tapioca/.
>
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Tapestry, Java and Hibernate consultant and developer
> http://machina.com.br
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator of Apache Tapestry
The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
(971) 678-5210
http://howardlewisship.com
@hlship
Re: Rename tapestry-ioc to hivemind
Posted by Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <th...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:46:00 -0300, Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> How's about tapioca as a name suggestion? It has references to tapestry
> and ioc. :)
That's making me hungry and it's not lunch time here yet! :D
A quick Google search for "tapioca framework" shows a number of existing
stuff with that name, though, even a Java IoC framework:
http://code.google.com/p/tapioca/.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Tapestry, Java and Hibernate consultant and developer
http://machina.com.br
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Rename tapestry-ioc to hivemind
Posted by Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>.
How's about tapioca as a name suggestion? It has references to tapestry and
ioc. :)
On 21 Jul 2014 14:38, "Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 05:02:28 -0300, Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I asked this question before I was a committer and generally got good
>> feedback but it never really went anywhere.
>>
>> I think having tapestry-ioc and tapestry (the web framework) is a bit
>> confusing. I also feel that it hinders the promotion / adoption of
>> tapestry-ioc as a standalone product.
>>
>
> I'm not sure what to think about this. Mixed feelings. I've posted before
> that it would have been better for Tapestry-IoC for it to not have
> 'Tapestry' in its name and Howard agreed. But, now, I'm not sure a rename
> would do more harm or good. Tapestry 5, both web framework and IoC, had its
> first final release in April 12, 2009, five years ago. There's already lots
> of documentation and blog posts and etc about it, so a rename for avoiding
> confusion would end up causing more confusion of its own.
>
> I agree with Bob about not ressurecting old product names. It would add
> more confusion. HiveMind was XML-heavy, and Tapestry-IoC is XML-free. Maybe
> Tapestry 5 itself shouldn't have been named Tapestry, for the same reason,
> as it was a rewrite for scratch.
>
> Regarding the development cycle, I don't think right now it's a speed bump
> for Tapestry-IoC. As an IoC core (kernel?), it's a mature product. Its last
> major change I could remember was the copying of service implementation
> annotations to the corresponding service proxies. Before that, live class
> reloading for service implementations and JSR 303's @Inject support. I
> guess the features Tapestry-IoC would most benefit from now on don't need
> changes in itself, but additional packages that integrate it with other
> stuff. Of course, other people may see things differently, and I love to
> discuss it.
>
> Summary: I wish Tapestry-IoC had another name and that it wasn't HiveMind
> (maybe Collective?), but IMHO it's too late to rename it, even if I think
> discussing it is a very good thing.
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Tapestry, Java and Hibernate consultant and developer
> http://machina.com.br
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
Re: Rename tapestry-ioc to hivemind
Posted by Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <th...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, 19 Jul 2014 05:02:28 -0300, Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> I asked this question before I was a committer and generally got good
> feedback but it never really went anywhere.
>
> I think having tapestry-ioc and tapestry (the web framework) is a bit
> confusing. I also feel that it hinders the promotion / adoption of
> tapestry-ioc as a standalone product.
I'm not sure what to think about this. Mixed feelings. I've posted before
that it would have been better for Tapestry-IoC for it to not have
'Tapestry' in its name and Howard agreed. But, now, I'm not sure a rename
would do more harm or good. Tapestry 5, both web framework and IoC, had
its first final release in April 12, 2009, five years ago. There's already
lots of documentation and blog posts and etc about it, so a rename for
avoiding confusion would end up causing more confusion of its own.
I agree with Bob about not ressurecting old product names. It would add
more confusion. HiveMind was XML-heavy, and Tapestry-IoC is XML-free.
Maybe Tapestry 5 itself shouldn't have been named Tapestry, for the same
reason, as it was a rewrite for scratch.
Regarding the development cycle, I don't think right now it's a speed bump
for Tapestry-IoC. As an IoC core (kernel?), it's a mature product. Its
last major change I could remember was the copying of service
implementation annotations to the corresponding service proxies. Before
that, live class reloading for service implementations and JSR 303's
@Inject support. I guess the features Tapestry-IoC would most benefit from
now on don't need changes in itself, but additional packages that
integrate it with other stuff. Of course, other people may see things
differently, and I love to discuss it.
Summary: I wish Tapestry-IoC had another name and that it wasn't HiveMind
(maybe Collective?), but IMHO it's too late to rename it, even if I think
discussing it is a very good thing.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Tapestry, Java and Hibernate consultant and developer
http://machina.com.br
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org