[MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x

[Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>]

on 12/16/2000 11:55 PM, "cmanolache@yahoo.com" <cm...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Since I believe in a different future and direction, I'll spend the
> time to make mod_jk and tomcat3.2 ( and the future 3.3 )  work with
> Apache2.0. 
> 
> mod_webapp is a nice start and I would love to see it integrated with
> mod_jk and tomcat3.3, and the autoconfiguration can certainly be reused in
> mod_jk - in addition with the current mechanism.
> 
> And of course, after mod_webapp is ready we can find out if the current
> idea of using the native server configuration mechanisms is good or
> bad ( maybe with real technical arguments ). - but the big advantage
> in mod_jk and tomcat3.x is that it has the choice of using whatever is
> best - for example mod_jserv is still a good adapter from many points of
> view - and will continue to be supported next to mod_jk. If you believe
> that in "one size fits all" - I'm fine with that, and I have nothing
> against supporting that size too.
> 
> Costin

Costin,

It really scares me that you are the only person (as far as I can tell) that
is seriously interested in maintaining and developing Tomcat 3.x into the
future. It is not good to have the entire rest of the core developers work
on Tomcat 4.x and having you sit here and say that you are going to work
towards back porting everything that the Tomcat 4.x people come up with on
your own. Talk about a complete duplication of effort by only a single
individual.

I can't even understand someone wanting to base their work on Tomcat 3.x
when all of the core developer support (ie: more than just one person) is
going towards Tomcat 4.x.

I *personally* think that you should either drop your Tomcat 3.x development
and work towards making Tomcat 4.0 have all the features and benefits that
you want to see in Tomcat 3.x (and thus show that we are all working
together instead of this constant fork within the overall Tomcat project) or
simply fork what you are doing into another project that is hosted somewhere
else.

In fact, I'm pretty strongly -1 on Tomcat 3.3. If anything it would need to
be suggested as Tomcat 5.0 because as far as I can tell, we have already
come to the conclusion that Catalina will be Tomcat 4.0.

Don't take what I said as me kicking you out or killing things or anything
even remotely personal.

What I'm most concerned with here is the overall Tomcat project goals and
seeing you duplicating work and effort is really not making me happy. Sure,
you could say that the goals might be flawed in your opinion, which is
perfectly valid, but the fact of the matter is that the rest of the people
on the project are working towards making Tomcat 4.0 the future.

> In other words - feel free to follow the direction you like, but please
> let people who have a different opinion spend the time on what the feel is
> the future !!

Again, I don't think that anyone here is suggesting otherwise. The issue is
the manner in which you are working on your vision of the future is
currently appearing to be a complete duplication of effort as well as
competition with what is the current focus of the overall project.

One thing that Craig did with 4.0 that was the right thing to do was to
lobby the core developers into working on his vision of the future, where
your "attitude" has been to simply continue working on your vision no matter
what everyone else is doing.

That is what I'm talking about not being good for the overall project. If
you want to work on your vision. Please do so. Don't let us stop you. But,
you really should do it as a fork in your own workspace. You should be into
lobbying people to work with you...not as a "damn you all, I'm going to do
what I want regardless of what you say" type of attitude. This is because
you will never get any other core developer support behind you for Tomcat
5.0 regardless of how good your code is.

> I'm not telling anyone to "spend any time" on mod_jk if they don't feel
> it's a good protocol and a great idea - I offered my help to make tomcat
> 3.2 work with Apache 2.0. I hope other people will help - and it will be
> useful for those who upgrade to Apache 2.0 ( and probably part
> of the future ).

Ok, here you are trying to convince others to work with you, which is
GREAT!, but the issue is that why would anyone want to work on this code
when the rest of the project is obviously more interested in seeing mod_warp
be developed and mod_warp is obviously the more complete and forward
thinking solution?

We just don't have enough overall developer resources to support two
different forks of the same project going on at the same time! This isn't
good! :-(

thanks,

-jon

RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x

[Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>]

Hi people,


I just came back from holidays and red all this thread at once.

The main joke is in the initial posting where Jon goes from telling Costin
that "It really scares me that you are the only person..." in its beginning
to "We just don't have enough overall developer resources to support two
different forks".

I red it and I thought that Jon was trying to recruit Costin (the "only"
TC3.3 man) to TC4.x because Jakarta had not enough developer resources to
afford "wasting" Costin on 3.3 (only Costin since Jon says he is alone).


Man... this got me confused: I thought Sun had a bunch of people working
full time on Tomcat and then I learn that Jon is concerned about wasting
ONE part-timer's work with 3.3!!! (Remember again that Jon says that
Costin is the ONLY person interested in 3.3.)

=:o)


I am glad that further postings confirmed that there is a bunch of full
time developers working on 4.x and that there is a lot of other people
interested and working on 3.3. I am glad because:
 - Tomcat 4 is a very interesting evolution;
 - I can not afford to hold my breath until 4.x gets stable and I hope
   that 3.3 "gets there" soon(er) enough to provide me with a good
   production Servlet engine that supports JSPs.


I would like to see a finished production Tomcat server soon. However,
there is NO Tomcat version yet that provides all the functionality and
robustness that most serious developers expect from a Servlet engine.


The fact that production experience is being injected in Tomcat 3.3 is
a reassurance to me that such a version will happen soon enough. Forcing
the people that are doing that work in 3.3 to quit from 3.3 and learn
4.x is not the shortest path (in time) to use their knowledge in having
_some_ Tomcat version REALLY production ready.


I will believe that 4.x is production ready when it happens. The
time-to-become-stable estimation is one of those that fails more often
and by larger amounts.

In the meantime, 3.3 looks closer. Refactoring is different from
such a large redesign/rewrite as Tomcat 4.x is - and this holds true
even if you call it Catalina or JServ 2.

Lets see:
 - There are to many new ingredients, too many new components and too
   many new developers in Tomcat 4. Too many things can fail;
 - OTOH, in 3.3 there is Costin and 3.x-experienced guys cleaning up,
   refactoring and fixing what they know well, only adding new stuff
   where essential.

Agin:
 - On one hand I see a lot of new pieces on 4.x that can provide a
   lot of unforeseen issues.
 - And OTOH I see work over a better known base with much less new
   pieces on 3.3.

So, I have to believe that 3.3 is the shortest path to have some
production ready Tomcat.


I respect Craig a lot. A LOT really. But his judgment might be a bit
biased since 4.x is his child. It is so easy to be (over)optimistic
about the time-to-production of one's own child!


I just don't know what to think about Jon. Maybe he got overexcited
about 4.x new features and he wants to have it ready ASAP. Maybe that
is why he makes this kind of political move with such enthusiasm that
he even becomes incoherent.


My political move is to defend 3.3, since I only get overexcited by
having a Production Quality Tomcat AsSoonAsPossible!

Yes, I like the future in Tomcat 4.x, but I need a PRESENT really
soon too and 3.3 would be good enough for that.


I will be clear - if Costin is forced to move away I will try to use
anything that him and the other 3.3 guys post on SourceForge, on any
other site or mail me privately.

BUT if that happens I will be much less motivated to come back to
Tomcat since Tomcat would have become a feud where there is no longer
room for the competition and complementarities of good ideas.


Remember that Tomcat 4.x wouldn't exist so soon if the argument
against dividing resources would be applied with the focus on getting
a production quality 3.x server out. And one could argue that such
focus would better fulfill the responsibilities of the project towards
its users.

In the end, I think we are better with this division of resources and
interests since it ensures that products get fully matured (as 3.3 for
the 3.x line) while future more sophisticated designs evolve (4.x).


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:jon@latchkey.com]
>
> Costin,
>
> It really scares me that you are the only person (as far as I can
> tell) that
> is seriously interested in maintaining and developing Tomcat 3.x into the
> future. It is not good to have the entire rest of the core developers work
> on Tomcat 4.x and having you sit here and say that you are going to work
> towards back porting everything that the Tomcat 4.x people come up with on
> your own. Talk about a complete duplication of effort by only a single
> individual.

........

> We just don't have enough overall developer resources to support two
> different forks of the same project going on at the same time! This isn't
> good! :-(
>
> thanks,
>
> -jon
>