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Posted to dev@flex.apache.org by Stephane Beladaci <ad...@gmail.com> on 2012/02/05 03:00:45 UTC
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 -
listen to Steve
This post is a brillant example of Apple's brain washing power! If you
listen to Steve Jobs then you contribute to the spreading of a disease
that will do nothing but cripple the industry. Apple does not push
HTML5 because it is better, they push it because it does not exists
and can easily be patented and crippled (see W3C public statement
saying it is very sad when they have to go after one of their own
member for patent abuse, see also HTML5 bugs related to audio / video
in Safari marked "not to be fixed" by executive order, that is Apple
execs ordering Safari engineers not to fix audio/video bug with HTML5
on Safari to protect iOS.
On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Cem Samira
<ce...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> What use is there in supporting a technical very doubtable SWF format
> compared to the JavaScript VM? With Flash being such a CPU hog, we'd all be
> glad to get rid of an outdated technology in favor of the future proof
> JavaScript VM.
>
> As Steve Jobs said: "Sometimes people call us crazy when we get rid of
> things like the floppy disk on the original iMac ... But sometimes you just
> have to pick the right technology ... Flash is waning ... HTML5 is on the
> ascendency".
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPb9eRNyIrQ&noredirect=1
>
> The whole discussion here is centered around proprietary Adobe technology,
> and soon Apache will feel like an extension of the Adobe marketing.
>
> I don't see any value in Apache becoming involved with an out-dated
> technology, and building a large community around a single vendor runtime.
> This project is doomed, when you only focus on releasing another Flex 4.6+
> version supporting Flash Player.
>
> So get a team together, and start working on HTML5 support for Flex,
> anything else will just bring us more frustration with the A* company.
>
> - Cem
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 -
listen to Steve
Posted by John Fletcher <fl...@gmail.com>.
2012/2/5 Stephane Beladaci <ad...@gmail.com>
> Apple does not push HTML5 because it is better, they push it because it
> does not exists
>
>
>
Haha this is so true.
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5
- listen to Steve
Posted by David Arno <da...@davidarno.org>.
On Sun, 2012-02-05 at 10:02 -0800, Doug McCune wrote:
> This is incredibly false and shortsighted. In the HTML/JS world an
> INCREDIBLE amount changed in 2012...
Thanks for that Doug. I've gone from being a reluctant investigator of
JavaScript to enthusiastic one recently as - whilst the language is
shite - the community and growing technologies around it are so active
and enthusiastic and so much did seem to change last year. I just don't
know enough about it to argue that point. So thanks for so eloquently
putting into words what I was thinking.
David.
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 -
listen to Steve
Posted by Carlos Rovira <ca...@codeoscopic.com>.
Hi Doug,
reading my brief post and your response I think I fell in the problem that
trying to post short answers or sentences makes this kind of communication
problems.
Let me clarify what I tried to express:
I'm aware of the evolution of JS through the years. I like many of the
things that evolution brought: LESS & SASS in css, js frameworks like
jquery or sproutcore, ... and one of the things I would like from a JS
approach is that we are against the browser and we have not to deal with a
plugin, in terms of pure integration.
But IMHO there's lots more problems with JS than benefits right now. The
proof is that we are all here trying to save flex, and right now it's tied
to Flash Player. A Flex HTML5 should be created from scratch, and I think
Apple, Google and Adobe will bring the key frameworks and tools in the
following years.
What's are the main problems in JS that make me thinks that we have already
something superior (Flex)?
* We continue to have the problems of different browser vendors, and we go
again to the fragmentation way that we all hate. The "one implementation to
rule them all" is crucial in client side application (something that is not
such a problem in server side enviroments). Regarding this the right way
IMHO will be to have a Flash Player open source and managed by a foundation
like Apache. But this is other war and topic to talk in other threads...
* We have lots of things that JS and its evolution does not has already:
Main for me is OOP, but there are many others (DI, Annotations,
AOP, precompilation & bytecode, debuggin, profiling,...and the companion
tools to deal with all of this...should I continue??
* I see lots of great JS code (node.js, jquery, and so on...) but all is
scattered through the web, so to work with all the problems JS would arise
we should work on some "glue framework" or something from scratch that
would bring as a skeleton to build applications. Work with js today
continues to be a nightmare, since is all based on separated scripts. No
packages and no organization at all based in some criteria, only what you
want to impose. All this things are already in our hands with AS3 and Flex
from several years.
JS is evolving greatly, but it continues to be IMHO a poor solution
(compared with what we have today with flex). Moreover if we take into
account that we have already something better that works (aka Flex) (again
why we are all here trying to make Apache Flex sucessful??), we should
trying to make it better.
Another point I want to share, I like the promises that FalconJS could
bring to us, and would love to see it come true. But I think this is a
long-term approach. If this could be taken in few months things will be
very different and maybe Adobe would consider that way.
can we produce some "Flex-sdk-for-HTML5" that allow us to build apps in
MXML+AS3 (or a variant like Dart), using OOP (this is basic)? that will
produce a output based on HTML/JS/CSS scripts? I can elaborate more on this
but is huge task that will take us several months/years to get it done.
Moreover, for the time this effort would bring us something
usable...enterprise projects could benefit from that?. One thing is to make
it successful in little apps, but other thing is to get it work in huge
systems where we're using Flex 4.6 in very advanced ways.
I think as well that is really good that some people work in that JS
approach and others in actual framework evolution (I would contribute on
the later).
My short message was about my desire of see a 4.7 ASAP, since we need
something released soon to avoid any possibility of fail for Apache Flex.
Other works and JS approaches could live in parallel and will be great. I
only want to say that those efforts will take lots of time to see something
working or released, but as many of us (if not all) I would love to see
flex producing HTML5/JS/CSS code and valid high level enterprise apps with
all the benefits we as developers have today with Flex/AS3/Flash/OOP/DI,
and so on...
Hope this long message would make you all understand what I mean to say.
Thanks!
Carlos Rovira
2012/2/5 Stephane Beladaci <ad...@gmail.com>
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Doug McCune <do...@dougmccune.com> wrote:
> >
> > Saying nothing changed means you haven't been paying attention. HTML/JS
> is
> > changing faster than almost any other technology stack out there at the
> > moment. It has more momentum and developer interest than almost any other
> > technology stack. DO NOT write it off as being inferior.
> >
>
> It is not because a lot of people try to hack it and make it work because
> they do not have a choice (Apple banning every single RIA technology from
> iOS gives no choice to developers but to make HTML5 work no matter if it
> means cutting everyone an arm and a leg. I would not applaud it! Facebook
> is a brillant example of what happens when a platform is built on hacks, it
> is absolutely not reliable.
>
> HTML5/JS is a scam to me, a scam shove into our troat by Steve Jobs who is
> probably laughing his butt of from the other side seeing so many people
> trying to make something work when in fact the goal from day one was for
> Apple to cripple the web and created an exodus of developers moving from
> the web to proprietary iOS.
>
--
Carlos Rovira
Director de Tecnología
M: +34 607 22 60 05
F: +34 912 35 57 77
CODEOSCOPIC S.A. <http://www.codeoscopic.com>
Avd. del General Perón, 32
Planta 10, Puertas P-Q
28020 Madrid
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 -
listen to Steve
Posted by Stephane Beladaci <ad...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Doug McCune <do...@dougmccune.com> wrote:
>
> Saying nothing changed means you haven't been paying attention. HTML/JS is
> changing faster than almost any other technology stack out there at the
> moment. It has more momentum and developer interest than almost any other
> technology stack. DO NOT write it off as being inferior.
>
It is not because a lot of people try to hack it and make it work because
they do not have a choice (Apple banning every single RIA technology from
iOS gives no choice to developers but to make HTML5 work no matter if it
means cutting everyone an arm and a leg. I would not applaud it! Facebook
is a brillant example of what happens when a platform is built on hacks, it
is absolutely not reliable.
HTML5/JS is a scam to me, a scam shove into our troat by Steve Jobs who is
probably laughing his butt of from the other side seeing so many people
trying to make something work when in fact the goal from day one was for
Apple to cripple the web and created an exodus of developers moving from
the web to proprietary iOS.
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of
HTML5 - listen to Steve
Posted by Rick Winscot <ri...@gmail.com>.
Doug - I agree with your bottom line... trajectory is _very_ important. However, I think that the importance of any trajectory is directly dependent upon the quality of the samples. In this case, I'd have to say that this trajectory is grossly misleading... I'll give you several reasons why.
First, the Flash security model is stable, mature, and consistent across all browsers. The figures for Flash include the security overhead for managing crossdomain, mouse / touch / keyboard interaction, and whatnot. Adding this kind of capability into JavaScript... will likely impact execution time ( It always does ).
Second, is the lack of true 1:1 comparisons between technologies. For example, if we want to validate the performance of runtime asset management - we could use the Loader in ActionScript and in JavaScript... hide / show a div tag?
Third, the gaps in browser performance are significant ( in the statistical sense ). In order to consider this trajectory valid... the standard deviation between browsers would have to be small; very small ( http://www.webkit.org/perf/sunspider/sunspider.html ).
Fourth, a plateau is a 'signature' of stability; that a point of diminishing return has been identified. When you get to this point it's wise to conserve efforts for innovation / paradigm shift ( what takes you to a new plateau ). Spending countless hours trying to squeeze a little more performance out of operation X... is difficult to justify. The move to GPU for Flash is a good example of just such an innovation / paradigm shift. So... IMO, a plateau isn't a sign of weakness - it's a sign of maturity. I would feel more comfortable with JavaScript as a solution if it had a few plateaus under it's belt. ;-)
--
Rick Winscot
On Sunday, February 5, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Doug McCune wrote:
> >
> > http://blogs.adobe.com/**avikchaudhuri/2012/01/17/the-**
> > v8-myth-why-javascript-is-not-**a-worthy-competitor/<http://blogs.adobe.com/avikchaudhuri/2012/01/17/the-v8-myth-why-javascript-is-not-a-worthy-competitor/>
> >
>
>
> I'd argue the important thing is not the current delta between JS and AS
> performance. For rendering-related tasks ActionScript is still way ahead
> (as that blog post tries to highlight and praise). However, that's not what
> you should focus on. Take a look at this chart:
> http://iq12.com/blog/as3-benchmark/ which shows the incremental speed
> improvements for AS code execution vs JS code execution.
>
> Ignore the numbers in the chart, and ignore the comparison of AS to JS. The
> benchmark only highlights things where JS excels (non rendering things).
>
> Focus on only one thing in that chart: the number of times the lines
> change. Since 2007 (when FP9/AS3 came out) there are 3 times when AS3
> performance increased. Compare that to the line for JS performance in
> Chrome, which has 8 jumps in performance since 2009. That's the difference
> that matters.
>
> And yes, you can argue that the GPU stuff with Molehill should be taken
> into account, etc (although that doesn't help with performance of any
> content not specifically written for GPU rendering). But I think that chart
> tells me more than anything else in this debate. AS3 performance has
> stagnated. JS performance has consistently increased. Is it as good as AS3
> right now? No. But largely that doesn't matter. It's the trajectory that
> matters.
>
> But enough about JS performance. My point wasn't to talk shit about Flash.
> My only point was that writing off HTML/JS as inferior is naive and
> dangerous.
>
>
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5
- listen to Steve
Posted by Alexandre Madurell <al...@gmail.com>.
On 2/5/2012 10:03 PM, Doug McCune wrote:
>> http://blogs.adobe.com/**avikchaudhuri/2012/01/17/the-**
>> v8-myth-why-javascript-is-not-**a-worthy-competitor/<http://blogs.adobe.com/avikchaudhuri/2012/01/17/the-v8-myth-why-javascript-is-not-a-worthy-competitor/>
>>
> I'd argue the important thing is not the current delta between JS and AS
> performance. For rendering-related tasks ActionScript is still way ahead
> (as that blog post tries to highlight and praise). However, that's not what
> you should focus on. Take a look at this chart:
> http://iq12.com/blog/as3-benchmark/ which shows the incremental speed
> improvements for AS code execution vs JS code execution.
>
> Ignore the numbers in the chart, and ignore the comparison of AS to JS. The
> benchmark only highlights things where JS excels (non rendering things).
>
> Focus on only one thing in that chart: the number of times the lines
> change. Since 2007 (when FP9/AS3 came out) there are 3 times when AS3
> performance increased. Compare that to the line for JS performance in
> Chrome, which has 8 jumps in performance since 2009. That's the difference
> that matters.
>
> And yes, you can argue that the GPU stuff with Molehill should be taken
> into account, etc (although that doesn't help with performance of any
> content not specifically written for GPU rendering). But I think that chart
> tells me more than anything else in this debate. AS3 performance has
> stagnated. JS performance has consistently increased. Is it as good as AS3
> right now? No. But largely that doesn't matter. It's the trajectory that
> matters.
>
> But enough about JS performance. My point wasn't to talk shit about Flash.
> My only point was that writing off HTML/JS as inferior is naive and
> dangerous.
>
Point taken :)
And thanks for the link, I recall having read it a while ago, and this
other (now updated) link mentioned in the comments is quite illustrative
too: http://www.craftymind.com/guimark3/ (I was shocked to see such poor
video performance by FP on video!).
P.S. I like your logo too (did you know "arrow" is "FLEtXa" in Catalan?) ;)
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 -
listen to Steve
Posted by Doug McCune <do...@dougmccune.com>.
>
> http://blogs.adobe.com/**avikchaudhuri/2012/01/17/the-**
> v8-myth-why-javascript-is-not-**a-worthy-competitor/<http://blogs.adobe.com/avikchaudhuri/2012/01/17/the-v8-myth-why-javascript-is-not-a-worthy-competitor/>
>
I'd argue the important thing is not the current delta between JS and AS
performance. For rendering-related tasks ActionScript is still way ahead
(as that blog post tries to highlight and praise). However, that's not what
you should focus on. Take a look at this chart:
http://iq12.com/blog/as3-benchmark/ which shows the incremental speed
improvements for AS code execution vs JS code execution.
Ignore the numbers in the chart, and ignore the comparison of AS to JS. The
benchmark only highlights things where JS excels (non rendering things).
Focus on only one thing in that chart: the number of times the lines
change. Since 2007 (when FP9/AS3 came out) there are 3 times when AS3
performance increased. Compare that to the line for JS performance in
Chrome, which has 8 jumps in performance since 2009. That's the difference
that matters.
And yes, you can argue that the GPU stuff with Molehill should be taken
into account, etc (although that doesn't help with performance of any
content not specifically written for GPU rendering). But I think that chart
tells me more than anything else in this debate. AS3 performance has
stagnated. JS performance has consistently increased. Is it as good as AS3
right now? No. But largely that doesn't matter. It's the trajectory that
matters.
But enough about JS performance. My point wasn't to talk shit about Flash.
My only point was that writing off HTML/JS as inferior is naive and
dangerous.
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5
- listen to Steve
Posted by Alexandre Madurell <al...@gmail.com>.
On 2/5/2012 7:12 PM, Omar Gonzalez wrote:
> On Sunday, February 5, 2012, Doug McCune<do...@dougmccune.com> wrote:
>>> Just a final sentence: We are in 2012, and nothing changed. HTML5/JS/CSS
>>> stack continues with the same problems and is inferior to what Flex/Flash
>>> give us. I think 2013 will be again the same...
>>
>> This is incredibly false and shortsighted. In the HTML/JS world an
>> INCREDIBLE amount changed in 2012. There was a huge amount of momentum
>> around microarchitecture frameworks, Backbone, KnockoutJS, AngularJS,
>> BatmanJS, and on and on. Frameworks that also include many UI component
>> pieces, such as jQuery, the recently updated Twitter Bootstrap, Sencha's'
>> ExtJS, etc. Coffeescript surged in popularity, which addresses many of the
>> "JS sucks" arguments that Flash devs often have. NodeJS kept chugging
>> along, becoming an actual option for a production server written in JS
> (and
>> of course you can also write your server code with Coffeescript on top of
>> Node). JetBrains WebStorm now offers a solid JavaScript IDE. Areas that
>> have traditionally been dominated by Flash, like data visualization, are
>> being challenged by powerful JS libraries like D3.js (for charting and
>> data-viz), and polymaps (for geographic mapping), and WebGL content has
>> made impressive advances with libraries like Three.JS.
>>
>> Saying nothing changed means you haven't been paying attention. HTML/JS is
>> changing faster than almost any other technology stack out there at the
>> moment. It has more momentum and developer interest than almost any other
>> technology stack. DO NOT write it off as being inferior.
>>
> ^^^
> Quoted for emphasis.
> -omar
>
With all due respect (as I acknowledge Doug is right about how much JS
has evolved, and its momentum and developer interest), read this for
still valid arguments on the "inferiority" of JavaScript (as
Just-In-Time on-the-fly compiled source code) vs. ActionScript (as
Ahead-Of-Time pre-compiled byte-code):
http://blogs.adobe.com/avikchaudhuri/2012/01/17/the-v8-myth-why-javascript-is-not-a-worthy-competitor/
Having said that, every developer should learn as many languages and
alternatives as possible for his/her own good. Knowing other
languages/frameworks can only help improve those to which we can
contribute to.
Alexandre
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 -
listen to Steve
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Sunday, February 5, 2012, Doug McCune <do...@dougmccune.com> wrote:
>>
>> Just a final sentence: We are in 2012, and nothing changed. HTML5/JS/CSS
>> stack continues with the same problems and is inferior to what Flex/Flash
>> give us. I think 2013 will be again the same...
>
>
> This is incredibly false and shortsighted. In the HTML/JS world an
> INCREDIBLE amount changed in 2012. There was a huge amount of momentum
> around microarchitecture frameworks, Backbone, KnockoutJS, AngularJS,
> BatmanJS, and on and on. Frameworks that also include many UI component
> pieces, such as jQuery, the recently updated Twitter Bootstrap, Sencha's'
> ExtJS, etc. Coffeescript surged in popularity, which addresses many of the
> "JS sucks" arguments that Flash devs often have. NodeJS kept chugging
> along, becoming an actual option for a production server written in JS
(and
> of course you can also write your server code with Coffeescript on top of
> Node). JetBrains WebStorm now offers a solid JavaScript IDE. Areas that
> have traditionally been dominated by Flash, like data visualization, are
> being challenged by powerful JS libraries like D3.js (for charting and
> data-viz), and polymaps (for geographic mapping), and WebGL content has
> made impressive advances with libraries like Three.JS.
>
> Saying nothing changed means you haven't been paying attention. HTML/JS is
> changing faster than almost any other technology stack out there at the
> moment. It has more momentum and developer interest than almost any other
> technology stack. DO NOT write it off as being inferior.
>
^^^
Quoted for emphasis.
-omar
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 -
listen to Steve
Posted by Alain Ekambi <ja...@googlemail.com>.
@Peter
I agree with you.
But i was not trying to define was Flex is i was just saying what it is now.
If Fley has to go HTML5 it should be because is the right thing to do not
because HTML5 is the buzzword of today or because there is no Flash on the
IPhone,
2012/2/5 Peter Elst <pe...@gmail.com>
> > We as a Flex community should say we build on top on Flash and we are
> happy
> > to do so. We dont want to be a new HTML5 library.
>
>
>
> I think we should all avoid trying to define what Flex should or should not
> be and just contribute and let it evolve organically - with Apache there is
> no need for roadmaps, there is no need to dictate what our technology
> should be.
>
> Let your contributions help shape the technology as you like to see it and
> don't worry if there are different opinions.
>
> Once all the practical steps are over, I look forward to more contributions
> and less discussion which - with all due respect - does more to divide us
> into opposing camps than get excited about the potential of the technology.
> There is no need to purely see things black or white, there is room for
> many different ideas and see what flourishes.
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 -
listen to Steve
Posted by Haykel BEN JEMIA <ha...@gmail.com>.
I think some of us, me at the first place, need to get used to the Apache
'ideology': just contribute and successful ideas will make it into the SDK.
Haykel
On 5 February 2012 21:17, Peter Elst <pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > We as a Flex community should say we build on top on Flash and we are
> happy
> > to do so. We dont want to be a new HTML5 library.
>
>
>
> I think we should all avoid trying to define what Flex should or should not
> be and just contribute and let it evolve organically - with Apache there is
> no need for roadmaps, there is no need to dictate what our technology
> should be.
>
> Let your contributions help shape the technology as you like to see it and
> don't worry if there are different opinions.
>
> Once all the practical steps are over, I look forward to more contributions
> and less discussion which - with all due respect - does more to divide us
> into opposing camps than get excited about the potential of the technology.
> There is no need to purely see things black or white, there is room for
> many different ideas and see what flourishes.
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 -
listen to Steve
Posted by Peter Elst <pe...@gmail.com>.
> We as a Flex community should say we build on top on Flash and we are happy
> to do so. We dont want to be a new HTML5 library.
I think we should all avoid trying to define what Flex should or should not
be and just contribute and let it evolve organically - with Apache there is
no need for roadmaps, there is no need to dictate what our technology
should be.
Let your contributions help shape the technology as you like to see it and
don't worry if there are different opinions.
Once all the practical steps are over, I look forward to more contributions
and less discussion which - with all due respect - does more to divide us
into opposing camps than get excited about the potential of the technology.
There is no need to purely see things black or white, there is room for
many different ideas and see what flourishes.
Thanks,
Peter
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 -
listen to Steve
Posted by Alain Ekambi <ja...@googlemail.com>.
I think it s important to know his identitity as a community. Flex to me is
framework made to build RIAs on top of the flash player. And there is
nothing wrong with that !!!
The first day we start cross compiling to HTML/JS/CSS is the day Flex
will start going away. Because why should one use Flex instead of let s say
Ext-JS or GWT ?
It s not about how many JS there is out there or how active the JS
commnunity is.
Any Software Engineer worth his money know that JS is a broken platform.
When it comes to big scale web applications we always look at what Google
does. If JS was a half good platform they would nt have Closure, the GWT
and now DART.
We as a Flex community should say we build on top on Flash and we are happy
to do so. We dont want to be a new HTML5 library.
2012/2/5 Doug McCune <do...@dougmccune.com>
> >
> > Just a final sentence: We are in 2012, and nothing changed. HTML5/JS/CSS
> > stack continues with the same problems and is inferior to what Flex/Flash
> > give us. I think 2013 will be again the same...
>
>
> This is incredibly false and shortsighted. In the HTML/JS world an
> INCREDIBLE amount changed in 2012. There was a huge amount of momentum
> around microarchitecture frameworks, Backbone, KnockoutJS, AngularJS,
> BatmanJS, and on and on. Frameworks that also include many UI component
> pieces, such as jQuery, the recently updated Twitter Bootstrap, Sencha's'
> ExtJS, etc. Coffeescript surged in popularity, which addresses many of the
> "JS sucks" arguments that Flash devs often have. NodeJS kept chugging
> along, becoming an actual option for a production server written in JS (and
> of course you can also write your server code with Coffeescript on top of
> Node). JetBrains WebStorm now offers a solid JavaScript IDE. Areas that
> have traditionally been dominated by Flash, like data visualization, are
> being challenged by powerful JS libraries like D3.js (for charting and
> data-viz), and polymaps (for geographic mapping), and WebGL content has
> made impressive advances with libraries like Three.JS.
>
> Saying nothing changed means you haven't been paying attention. HTML/JS is
> changing faster than almost any other technology stack out there at the
> moment. It has more momentum and developer interest than almost any other
> technology stack. DO NOT write it off as being inferior.
>
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 -
listen to Steve
Posted by Doug McCune <do...@dougmccune.com>.
>
> Just a final sentence: We are in 2012, and nothing changed. HTML5/JS/CSS
> stack continues with the same problems and is inferior to what Flex/Flash
> give us. I think 2013 will be again the same...
This is incredibly false and shortsighted. In the HTML/JS world an
INCREDIBLE amount changed in 2012. There was a huge amount of momentum
around microarchitecture frameworks, Backbone, KnockoutJS, AngularJS,
BatmanJS, and on and on. Frameworks that also include many UI component
pieces, such as jQuery, the recently updated Twitter Bootstrap, Sencha's'
ExtJS, etc. Coffeescript surged in popularity, which addresses many of the
"JS sucks" arguments that Flash devs often have. NodeJS kept chugging
along, becoming an actual option for a production server written in JS (and
of course you can also write your server code with Coffeescript on top of
Node). JetBrains WebStorm now offers a solid JavaScript IDE. Areas that
have traditionally been dominated by Flash, like data visualization, are
being challenged by powerful JS libraries like D3.js (for charting and
data-viz), and polymaps (for geographic mapping), and WebGL content has
made impressive advances with libraries like Three.JS.
Saying nothing changed means you haven't been paying attention. HTML/JS is
changing faster than almost any other technology stack out there at the
moment. It has more momentum and developer interest than almost any other
technology stack. DO NOT write it off as being inferior.
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5
Posted by David Arno <da...@davidarno.org>.
On Sun, 2012-02-05 at 15:03 +0100, Carlos Rovira wrote:
> That's key point. We should maintain and evolve Flex and stay away of
> discussions and HTML5 things.
> Just a final sentence: We are in 2012, and nothing changed. HTML5/JS/CSS
> stack continues with the same problems and is inferior to what Flex/Flash
> give us. I think 2013 will be again the same...
>
> Please, we need to concentrate and get Apache Flex 4.7 out of the door ASAP.
You miss the point of the "Apache way." If you wish to concentrate on
Apache Flex 4.7, then do so. We need people doing that, so it's good
that you are. I prefer to concentrate on removing Flex's reliance on the
flash player, so I'll focus on targeting JavaScript. We need people
focusing on that too and so it's good that I am. What succeeds will make
it into future releases; what doesn't, won't.
Apache Flex doesn't have a road map and we don't need to reach a
consensus on what to do and when. Do what you want and others will do
what they want...
David.
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 -
listen to Steve
Posted by Carlos Rovira <ca...@codeoscopic.com>.
>
> we should concentrate on making (or
> keeping) it the best technology for developing enterprise applications for
> multiple devices.
>
>
That's key point. We should maintain and evolve Flex and stay away of
discussions and HTML5 things.
Just a final sentence: We are in 2012, and nothing changed. HTML5/JS/CSS
stack continues with the same problems and is inferior to what Flex/Flash
give us. I think 2013 will be again the same...
Please, we need to concentrate and get Apache Flex 4.7 out of the door ASAP.
--
Carlos Rovira
Director de Tecnología
M: +34 607 22 60 05
F: +34 912 35 57 77
CODEOSCOPIC S.A. <http://www.codeoscopic.com>
Avd. del General Perón, 32
Planta 10, Puertas P-Q
28020 Madrid
Re: Apache Flex suggestion - dumping SWF support in favor of HTML5 -
listen to Steve
Posted by Haykel BEN JEMIA <ha...@gmail.com>.
How can we dump support for a technology in favor of another that is
inferior? I think everybody knows that HTML5 will not reach Flash in its
features in the next couple of years, and should it ever happen (will it
ever?), I can imagine the following things happening:
- Flash will have evolved to have new features that HTML5 does not have
- HTML5 (and JavaScript) will not be as stable and lightweight as they
are now
- The buzz around HTML5 will be gone and people will become objective
again in choosing the right technology for their projects
Personally I think it is not yet the right time to decide if Flex should
support HTML/JavaScript, instead we should concentrate on making (or
keeping) it the best technology for developing enterprise applications for
multiple devices.
Haykel
On 5 February 2012 03:00, Stephane Beladaci <ad...@gmail.com>wrote:
> This post is a brillant example of Apple's brain washing power! If you
> listen to Steve Jobs then you contribute to the spreading of a disease
> that will do nothing but cripple the industry. Apple does not push
> HTML5 because it is better, they push it because it does not exists
> and can easily be patented and crippled (see W3C public statement
> saying it is very sad when they have to go after one of their own
> member for patent abuse, see also HTML5 bugs related to audio / video
> in Safari marked "not to be fixed" by executive order, that is Apple
> execs ordering Safari engineers not to fix audio/video bug with HTML5
> on Safari to protect iOS.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Cem Samira
> <ce...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > What use is there in supporting a technical very doubtable SWF format
> > compared to the JavaScript VM? With Flash being such a CPU hog, we'd all
> be
> > glad to get rid of an outdated technology in favor of the future proof
> > JavaScript VM.
> >
> > As Steve Jobs said: "Sometimes people call us crazy when we get rid of
> > things like the floppy disk on the original iMac ... But sometimes you
> just
> > have to pick the right technology ... Flash is waning ... HTML5 is on the
> > ascendency".
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPb9eRNyIrQ&noredirect=1
> >
> > The whole discussion here is centered around proprietary Adobe
> technology,
> > and soon Apache will feel like an extension of the Adobe marketing.
> >
> > I don't see any value in Apache becoming involved with an out-dated
> > technology, and building a large community around a single vendor
> runtime.
> > This project is doomed, when you only focus on releasing another Flex
> 4.6+
> > version supporting Flash Player.
> >
> > So get a team together, and start working on HTML5 support for Flex,
> > anything else will just bring us more frustration with the A* company.
> >
> > - Cem
>