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Posted to dev@directory.apache.org by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> on 2004/07/08 14:42:06 UTC
Personal attacks and respect
Along with conflict deescalation come other traits of how participating
at Apache is meant to be: avoiding personal attacks and peer respect.
Apache communities have to build upon consensus, not polarize factions.
As a fellow member has told me, consensus doesn't mean "majority rules";
it means that people agree on what the community feels is right, even if
it is personally disagreeable.
It's important to remember that all code discussions have to pertain to
the code, not to the person talking about it. Personal attacks must be
avoided at all times, and silence is to be used to ignore the attacker.
If the mails keep coming or get too nasty, it's common that at least one
fellow member explicitly invites the attacker to calm down and stop it,
after which all ignore the fact. If the thing gets impossible to cope
with, the PMC can, in private, decide to do what it feels necessary to
defend itself from public insults to one or more of it's members.
Apache is known to keep people in high esteem, especially peers, that
have always to be taken in high respect. If someone is on the PMC, it is
because all members have agreed to share the project decisions with this
person, because of good and consistent contributions to the project (not
necessarily the code, a project is more than that). This has to be
remembered when voting someone on the PMC, as he will be sharing space
with you.
These are not general guidelines that can or can not be followed, we are
talking about core stuff. There has already been a case in which a PMC
has decided to throw out a PMC member because of lack of respect for
peers. Not that I want this to happen again, but it gives the sense of
how this is important.
http://www.apache.org/foundation/faq.html#what-is-apache-about
http://www.apache.org/foundation/faq.html#what-is-apache-NOT-about
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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RE: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Leo Simons wrote:
> Is the issue now resolved as far as the general@incubator list
> is concerned
We can hope.
--- Noel
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Leo Simons <ls...@jicarilla.org>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Stephen McConnell wrote:
>> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>>> unnecessary and unwarranted disruption of an incubator project
>>>
>>> Let it go.
>>
>> <snip/>
>
> I would like to retract my comments above.
good! This sounds like progress. Is the issue now resolved as far as the
general@incubator list is concerned (reading lots of e-mails, I still
can't understand what happened, is happening)? If not, what is still
expected from us?
- LSD
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>>> unnecessary and unwarranted disruption of an incubator project
>>
>>
>>
>> Let it go. No one other than you is characterizing it that way. Just
>> let
>> it go.
>
>
> I let it go for three months and now I'm seeing the consequences on not
> speaking up earlier. If people here think it is appropriate I can move
> the discussion to community@apache.org - but frankly, I think it is more
> appropriate that this issue is dealt with here. Either way, the
> question of "mentor" responsibility and accountability will be raised.
I would like to retract my comments above.
Basically I'm digging a hole for myself and dragging Nicola in with me.
Nicola - I want to apologize to you for that. You and I still need
to talk because knowingly or not your causing me grief and making life
difficult for an entire project. As for the above - I'm not interested
in raising discussion on community@apache - I'm not even keen on the
discussion here. All I really want to do is to get you to recognize
that your public call for the death of a particular Apache project has
caused damage and unnecessary time from a number of different people who
care about the project in question. On the other-hand I can't stand
here are say that you don't have the right to say what you think.
To everyone else - at the end of the day I know I'm simply using the
question of mentor as leverage. Bottom line - that makes me not a very
good Apache citizen and that's creating a situation in which I feel very
uncomfortable. Maybe Ken's right and all I need is a good smack around
the head. Even so - I want to say sorry to everyone here - in
particular - Noel - you don't need this more than anyone.
Steve.
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>unnecessary and unwarranted disruption of an incubator project
>
>
> Let it go. No one other than you is characterizing it that way. Just let
> it go.
I let it go for three months and now I'm seeing the consequences on not
speaking up earlier. If people here think it is appropriate I can move
the discussion to community@apache.org - but frankly, I think it is more
appropriate that this issue is dealt with here. Either way, the
question of "mentor" responsibility and accountability will be raised.
Stephen.
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RE: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> unnecessary and unwarranted disruption of an incubator project
Let it go. No one other than you is characterizing it that way. Just let
it go.
--- Noel
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Brian Behlendorf wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
>
>> Steven Noels wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Please, not here. I'm quite confident that a good portion of the
>>> inhabitants of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win"
>>> this flamefest. At least I am not, and I can imagine that neither
>>> general@ nor pmc@i.a.o are to be bothered with thread fallout debris
>>> like this. It ain't fun nor educating to watch.
>>
>>
>> well, sometimes you have to deal with unpleasant things. that's life.
>
>
> I think most of us are still perplexed as to why Stephen chose this list
> (general@incubator) to "rumble" with Nicola. Could someone clarify
> this? Does it have to do with a project currently in the incubator? I'm
> not on any sublists of the incubator...
I chose this list for two reasons:
1. unnecessary and unwarranted disruption of an incubator project
was occurring - something I did not want to see continue in
light of the fact the the issues had nothing to do with the
project in question
2. that underlying this disruption - incubator policies related
to the nomination of named mentors is IMO potential the
root issue here
I think that the first issue can be resolved (possible through
arbitration or directly by the initiating party). Even so, the second
issue remains and is a subject that could be reviewed within this forum
and potential resolved for the benefit of subsequent incubator projects.
For now I aiming to resolve the first item, following which I (or
possibly someone else with interested in improving policy here at
Apache) can provide a more complete summation.
My apologies to everyone for what I hope will be a temporary disruption
and earnestly hope that a rapid resolution can be achieved.
Stephen.
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Brian Behlendorf <br...@collab.net>.
On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
>>
>> Please, not here. I'm quite confident that a good portion of the
>> inhabitants of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win"
>> this flamefest. At least I am not, and I can imagine that neither
>> general@ nor pmc@i.a.o are to be bothered with thread fallout debris
>> like this. It ain't fun nor educating to watch.
>
> well, sometimes you have to deal with unpleasant things. that's life.
I think most of us are still perplexed as to why Stephen chose this list
(general@incubator) to "rumble" with Nicola. Could someone clarify this?
Does it have to do with a project currently in the incubator? I'm not on
any sublists of the incubator...
Brian
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Steven Noels wrote:
>
> Please, not here. I'm quite confident that a good portion of the
> inhabitants of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win"
> this flamefest. At least I am not, and I can imagine that neither
> general@ nor pmc@i.a.o are to be bothered with thread fallout debris
> like this. It ain't fun nor educating to watch.
well, sometimes you have to deal with unpleasant things. that's life.
it seems fairly clear to me that this issue isn't going to go away
without some sort of arbitration, if then; there will continue to
be eruptions of this sort until it is handled. personally, i think
repeated eruptions will have a more deleterious effect than one
long one that kills the volcano for good and all.
also remember: we're about community, and about openness. we have a
community issue here, and i think it is improper to turn our backs
on it. the incubator more than any other part of the foundation is
where this should be handled, i think; if you can think of a better,
please say so. but i don't think the issue is going to go away just
by wishing or covering it up and pretending it doesn't exist.
i haven't finished reading all the threads, so i'm withholding my
opinion until i do.
something is going to be done about this. the differences will be
reconciled, or one or the other or both parties will 'leave' (work
on projects that have no intersection with the other person), or
someone (or someones) will get a metaphorical smack upside the head.
it will not be allowed to fester indefinitely.
and these things happen, so figuring out how to deal with them
provides valuable examples and material for the 'keeping a community
healthy' aspect of our documentation.
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
...
> But that is not what we are talking about ATM... I see two persons
> bringing bad vibes into the wrong places. That will reflect badly upon
> both of them. What I was trying to suggest is that those persons try and
> find a solution amongst themselves.
David Blevins wrote:
...
> I really don't want to get caught in the cross-fire, but...you could
> call each other up and talk/yell this out on the phone and get the
> argument over quickly.
I don't have anything to say to Stephen, and I really don't know what I
have to talk/yell about. If he has problems with me and needs to address
them, he can write to me personally, no problem with that.
If you read the threads, you will notice that I have not taken part in
this whacky one-way flamefest.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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RE: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > I've suggested to Nicola Ken that he start work on a web page to
> > cover ideals, techniques and scenarios [regarding communication
> > skills and other useful community building techniques.]
>
> I figure your suggestion and the assumedly planned work can't have
> anything to do with what is happening here.
A catalyst, and nothing more. If a page on communication skills for healthy
communities (which I don't believe will be a one person task) is done well,
a year from now no one will remember or care about what catalyzed it.
> I'd rather review what becomes available, and thank
> the person who initially got the ball rolling.
And contribute, once that ball is rolling, I hope. :-)
As for the rest, I understand how you feel, and agree. Have a good
vacation. :-)
--- Noel
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 08 Jul 2004, at 20:48, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> I'm quite confident that a good portion of the inhabitants
>> of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win"
>> this flamefest.
>
> +1
>
> There is a sense in which a general discussion on community building
> techniques and communication skills is worthwhile. I've suggested to
> Nicola
> Ken that he start work on a web page to cover ideals, techniques and
> scenarios. He has agreed that it is something he would like to do,
> and to
> which others would contribute. Discussion on that would be appropriate
> here, in my opinion, so long as it maintains the proper academic and
> cordial decorum. Another venue could be community@, again with the
> same
> caveat.
I figure your suggestion and the assumedly planned work can't have
anything to do with what is happening here. I hate rules-making for
community dynamics as much as anyone, but if it needs to happen (and
I'm not sure it does), I'd like it to grow naturally rather than being
commissioned. But I'd rather review what becomes available, and thank
the person who initially got the ball rolling.
But that is not what we are talking about ATM... I see two persons
bringing bad vibes into the wrong places. That will reflect badly upon
both of them. What I was trying to suggest is that those persons try
and find a solution amongst themselves. I feel like the audience for a
play I rejected a ticket for. If the audience leaves, I wonder how many
of the actors would stay on stage. The funniest things happen when
people take themselves too seriously.
(I'm a few hours away from going on holidays, so bear my poetic
tendencies ATM.)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
This is my last mail regarding Stephen McConnell. His mails are now
automatically deleted from my inbox. I do not have time for such "debates"
(?)with no visible content.
Andreas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen McConnell" <mc...@apache.org>
To: <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: Personal attacks and respect
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> >>I'm quite confident that a good portion of the inhabitants
> >>of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win"
> >>this flamefest.
> >
> >
> > +1
> >
> > There is a sense in which a general discussion on community building
> > techniques and communication skills is worthwhile. I've suggested to Nicola
> > Ken that he start work on a web page to cover ideals, techniques and
> > scenarios.
>
> -1
>
> Sorry but Nicola Ken is not qualified. I'm sorry Nicola but you
> instigated this and only you can fix it.
>
> Stephen.
>
> --
>
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>I've suggested to Nicola Ken that he start work on a web page
>>to cover ideals, techniques and scenarios [related to community
>>building and conversation skills]
>
>
>>-1
>>Sorry but Nicola Ken is not qualified.
>
>
> Your opinion is noted, but that is not your call to make. I asked him if he
> would volunteer to start that content, and he has agreed. No one's writing
> is sacrosanct. Process documentation is part of the Incubator's "work
> product", and managed in source control just like code. We have plenty of
> people with experience and insight to contribute, and it will be easier, in
> my view, to contribute to something that exists rather than to an empty
> page. If you wish to contribute constructive suggestions, your
> contributions will be as treated the same as anyone else's.
Thank you for the offer - but no - I won't be contributing to something
which blatantly contradicts opinion with action.
Cheers, Steve.
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RE: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> I've suggested to Nicola Ken that he start work on a web page
> to cover ideals, techniques and scenarios [related to community
> building and conversation skills]
> -1
> Sorry but Nicola Ken is not qualified.
Your opinion is noted, but that is not your call to make. I asked him if he
would volunteer to start that content, and he has agreed. No one's writing
is sacrosanct. Process documentation is part of the Incubator's "work
product", and managed in source control just like code. We have plenty of
people with experience and insight to contribute, and it will be easier, in
my view, to contribute to something that exists rather than to an empty
page. If you wish to contribute constructive suggestions, your
contributions will be as treated the same as anyone else's.
--- Noel
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 09 Jul 2004, at 03:44, David Blevins wrote:
> I really don't want to get caught in the cross-fire, but...you could
> call each other up and talk/yell this out on the phone and get the
> argument over quickly.
+1, but some people just *need* the audience, alas. ;-)
(now i'm really gone)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by David Blevins <da...@visi.com>.
On Fri, Jul 09, 2004 at 12:09:13AM +0200, Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Sander Striker wrote:
>
> >>From: Stephen McConnell [mailto:mcconnell@apache.org]
> >>Sorry but Nicola Ken is not qualified. I'm sorry Nicola but
> >>you instigated this and only you can fix it.
> >
> >
> >Stephen, saying that someone is not qualified to do X isn't constructive.
> >Furthermore, it doesn't give me warm fuzzies reading a statement like
> >that on a list like this one. Or any list for that matter.
>
> Sander:
>
> I know where your coming from - but I'm kind of left without an option.
> If you want to suggest a mechanisms for resolution I'm listening.
>
I really don't want to get caught in the cross-fire, but...you could
call each other up and talk/yell this out on the phone and get the
argument over quickly.
-David
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Sander Striker wrote:
>>From: Stephen McConnell [mailto:mcconnell@apache.org]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 8:58 PM
>
>
>>Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>I'm quite confident that a good portion of the inhabitants of this
>>>>list doesn't care much about who is going to "win"
>>>>this flamefest.
>>>
>>>
>>>+1
>>>
>>>There is a sense in which a general discussion on community
>>
>>building
>>
>>>techniques and communication skills is worthwhile. I've
>>
>>suggested to
>>
>>>Nicola Ken that he start work on a web page to cover ideals,
>>>techniques and scenarios.
>>
>>-1
>>
>>Sorry but Nicola Ken is not qualified. I'm sorry Nicola but
>>you instigated this and only you can fix it.
>
>
> Stephen, saying that someone is not qualified to do X isn't constructive.
> Furthermore, it doesn't give me warm fuzzies reading a statement like
> that on a list like this one. Or any list for that matter.
Sander:
I know where your coming from - but I'm kind of left without an option.
If you want to suggest a mechanisms for resolution I'm listening.
Cheers, Steve.
>
> Sander
>
>
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RE: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Stephen McConnell [mailto:mcconnell@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 8:58 PM
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> >>I'm quite confident that a good portion of the inhabitants of this
> >>list doesn't care much about who is going to "win"
> >>this flamefest.
> >
> >
> > +1
> >
> > There is a sense in which a general discussion on community
> building
> > techniques and communication skills is worthwhile. I've
> suggested to
> > Nicola Ken that he start work on a web page to cover ideals,
> > techniques and scenarios.
>
> -1
>
> Sorry but Nicola Ken is not qualified. I'm sorry Nicola but
> you instigated this and only you can fix it.
Stephen, saying that someone is not qualified to do X isn't constructive.
Furthermore, it doesn't give me warm fuzzies reading a statement like
that on a list like this one. Or any list for that matter.
Sander
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>I'm quite confident that a good portion of the inhabitants
>>of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win"
>>this flamefest.
>
>
> +1
>
> There is a sense in which a general discussion on community building
> techniques and communication skills is worthwhile. I've suggested to Nicola
> Ken that he start work on a web page to cover ideals, techniques and
> scenarios.
-1
Sorry but Nicola Ken is not qualified. I'm sorry Nicola but you
instigated this and only you can fix it.
Stephen.
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RE: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> I'm quite confident that a good portion of the inhabitants
> of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win"
> this flamefest.
+1
There is a sense in which a general discussion on community building
techniques and communication skills is worthwhile. I've suggested to Nicola
Ken that he start work on a web page to cover ideals, techniques and
scenarios. He has agreed that it is something he would like to do, and to
which others would contribute. Discussion on that would be appropriate
here, in my opinion, so long as it maintains the proper academic and
cordial decorum. Another venue could be community@, again with the same
caveat.
--- Noel
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 08 Jul 2004, at 18:38, Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Brian McCallister wrote:
>> As an innocent bystander of the flamewar that spawned this email:
>> Nicola commented on some technical changes, it started deteriorating
>> into shed painting, Nicola posted an email on de-escalating conflict
>> in technical discussions, then Stephen attacked Nicola directly for
>> some as-yet-unspecified ("you know why, Nicola") historical reason
>> that Nicola is not allowed to suggest ways to de-escalate conflict.
>
> Actually - what I said was that
>
> "Nicola is 100% familiar with the reasons why he is
> the last person on the planet to assume any authority
> on [the subject of deescalation]"
>
> I would call that more of an "observation" rather than an "attack".
> I'm confident Nicola understands and appreciates that distinction.
Please, not here. I'm quite confident that a good portion of the
inhabitants of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win"
this flamefest. At least I am not, and I can imagine that neither
general@ nor pmc@i.a.o are to be bothered with thread fallout debris
like this. It ain't fun nor educating to watch.
Oh: I'm not taking sides... *shrug*.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
Could you please stop lowering the signal-to-noise ratio of this mailing list?
Thanks,
Andreas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen McConnell" <mc...@apache.org>
To: <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Personal attacks and respect
[...]
> I would call that more of an "observation" rather than an "attack". I'm
> confident Nicola understands and appreciates that distinction.
[...]
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Brian McCallister wrote:
> As an innocent bystander of the flamewar that spawned this email:
>
> Nicola commented on some technical changes, it started deteriorating
> into shed painting, Nicola posted an email on de-escalating conflict in
> technical discussions, then Stephen attacked Nicola directly for some
> as-yet-unspecified ("you know why, Nicola") historical reason that
> Nicola is not allowed to suggest ways to de-escalate conflict.
Actually - what I said was that
"Nicola is 100% familiar with the reasons why he is
the last person on the planet to assume any authority
on [the subject of deescalation]"
I would call that more of an "observation" rather than an "attack". I'm
confident Nicola understands and appreciates that distinction.
Cheers, Steve.
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Brian McCallister <br...@apache.org>.
As an innocent bystander of the flamewar that spawned this email:
Nicola commented on some technical changes, it started deteriorating
into shed painting, Nicola posted an email on de-escalating conflict in
technical discussions, then Stephen attacked Nicola directly for some
as-yet-unspecified ("you know why, Nicola") historical reason that
Nicola is not allowed to suggest ways to de-escalate conflict.
From there things went ballistic (the technical discussion wrapped up
quickly and happily) in personal attacks and slanders and the
discussion was suggested to move here.
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/BrowseList?listName=directory-
dev@incubator.apache.org&by=thread&from=815543
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/BrowseList?listName=directory-
dev@incubator.apache.org&by=thread&from=817324
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/BrowseList?listName=directory-
dev@incubator.apache.org&by=thread&from=816749
I suggest avoiding argumentum ad hominem in technical discussions. It
benefits no one, is logically invalid, and plays havoc on communities
=)
-Brian
On Jul 8, 2004, at 9:50 AM, Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> Nicola:
>
> If you have a problem with my annoyance at your presumption to preach -
> then present it here away from any particular project.
>
> Stephen.
>
>
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Nicola:
If you have a problem with my annoyance at your presumption to preach -
then present it here away from any particular project.
Stephen.
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RE: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> 1. If Person A brings up Issue1, and Person B doesn't agree on
> Issue1, there are three outcomes
> a. Keep silent out of respect of Person A, and let PersonA
> have it his/her way.
Depending upon the importance of the issue, this may be the right thing to
do. See the discussions of bike shed painting. Not every issue is worth
plan (b).
> b. Raise a voice and argue why Issue1 (as it stands) is
> perhaps not such a good idea, which in turn leads to
I will read your use of "argue" in the academic sense, not in the common
emotional response to the term. Likewise, I will take your use of "raise a
voice" to mean speak up, rather than drown out using volume.
And, yes, if the issue is of sufficient consequence, responding TO THE ISSUE
(not the person) would be appropriate. As Brian just said, avoid ad hominem
attacks.
> i. PersonA continue the argument over Issue1, perhaps
> with some modifications.
Nothing wrong with that. If the discourse over the issue is ON THE ISSUE,
and if both parties are willing to work together constructively to address
the technical concerns, the give-and-take of such a discussion will often
result in a consensus because all parties end up satisfied.
But the parties must be willing to find common ground and a solution they
can all live with.
> ii. PersonA calls PersonB for being intolerant and for
> personal attacks.
Communities should to be on-guard for this sort of thing, and admonish
members who turn to such tactics.
> What I am trying to get at is; It is very difficult to formulate
> a 'counter-argument' to Issue1 without the potential risk of the
> 'Initiator' taking it as an 'Personal Attack'
I agree that there is potential risk, and the way in which arguments are
presented is important. Which is why I do feel that a reasonable discussion
of communication techniques is not inappropriate, particularly for the
Incubator. We want our communities to develop the communication skills
necessary for building a healthy community.
> 1. When reading, don't take it personally.
Good advice.
> 2. If you feel it is a personal attack, assume that it was not the
> intention of the author, and if necessary ask for an apology.
And perhaps do the latter off-list.
> 3. If your post was taken personally, and someone raised that or
> you realized it afterwards, apologize and clarify.
As opposed to defending it, which is often someone's first reaction.
> Why should I be afraid of voicing my concern about the issues
> surrounding a project or a proposal?
You should not be, and we want to make sure that people who have sincere
concerns about technical issues are encouraged, not discourged.
But that does not mean that every issue is worth arguing over. We still
paint too many bike sheds. :-)
--- Noel
Re: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Along with conflict deescalation come other traits of how participating
> at Apache is meant to be: avoiding personal attacks and peer respect.
Sorry to somewhat disagree with your purified solution to a complex
issue. (And this statement in itself can be construed as an example of
personal attacks and flame warring.)
1. If Person A brings up Issue1, and Person B doesn't agree on Issue1,
there are three outcomes;
a. Keep silent out of respect of Person A, and let PersonA have it
his/her way.
b. Raise a voice and argue why Issue1 (as it stands) is perhaps not
such a good idea, which in turn leads to;
i. PersonA continue the argument over Issue1, perhaps with some
modifications.
ii. PersonA calls PersonB for being intolerant and for personal
attacks.
To that you can add a mix of other possibilities;
* PersonC says PersonA or PersonB is getting their way by
voluminous arguments, tiring the opposition to defeat.
* PersonD, PersonE and PersonF jumps into the scene, calling the
'combatants' to cool it, and in the process increase the temperature
instead of decreasing.
What I am trying to get at is; It is very difficult to formulate a
'counter-argument' to Issue1 without the potential risk of the
'Initiator' taking it as an 'Personal Attack', and it is almost
impossible for anyone else to make a remark after the initial post,
without that having the potential of being taken as a 'Personal
Attack' (potentially on both sides) or just adding to the overall heat.
I.e. Silence doesn't cure, just a massive doze of pain-killers.
To avoid the wound, I think there are better advice than silence, and
this is more on the reading side than writing;
1. When reading, don't take it personally.
2. If you feel it is a personal attack, assume that it was not the
intention of the author, and if necessary ask for an apology.
3. If your post was taken personally, and someone raised that or you
realized it afterwards, apologize and clarify.
Why should I be afraid of voicing my concern about the issues
surrounding a project or a proposal?
Cheers
Niclas
P.S. I have one more good argument why 'silence' doesn't work, but
I'll keep it until later.
RE: Personal attacks and respect
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Nicola,
I'd like to see discussion turn back to technical matters. However, your
points are all good.
Would you please prepare and commit a page discussing both the ideals and
realistic things to do when debate becomes a bit heated? You have as much
personal experience as to what works (and doesn't) as any, and it would
provide a hook for others to contribute their insights in that aspect of
community dynamics. Moving to a web page would also provide the ability to
cover more areas, with references, such as bike shedding, drowning out
opposing voices with volume, etc., and other forms of discordant
communication.
Anyone who wants to discuss community building is welcome to do so on
general@, but I'd like to see this list return to technical discussion of
the project at hand.
Thanks, Folks.
--- Noel