You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to marketing@couchdb.apache.org by Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> on 2015/05/07 05:13:57 UTC
Jan bias for Hoodie brought him to eradicate couchapps?!?!
Jan.. don't you think you are simply too biased for external projects, such
as your hoodie and pouchdb, to choose by your own, on a topic like
'retiring couchapps', so important to couchdb users and devs?
You REALLY can't mask it behind a marketing@ decision, of finding a story
you have already written, since a long time, and that you simply don'want
to change. Your story of the "data where you need it", does not have users
and industries consensus. You can't hide it!
You started with changing tooling names, sutting down couchapp domains and
forcing our company to change our old couchappy name (even if couchapp
wasn't even a trademark). We did it, because you promised visibility to us
and couchapps, which has never happened. We believed in your words and in
an healty pmc, but after this last move, we really can't think it anymore.
Couchapps are now much more powerful than they were in the past, also
thanks to our smileupps tutorials and app store platform, and to many other
improvements proposal already advanced by users, who instead would like to
improve them, not the contrary!!!
Your chance now is to completely eradicate a main recruiting couchdb
feature, before users can get aware of its potential, leading couchdb
towards a probable self-killing action. And the worst is you are doing
this, without any proven evidence and motivation, withouth asking devs of
its development complexity, and users what they think about it.
I definetely think you should:
1. HEAR YOUR COMMUNITY AND DEVS.. and if the consensus is 'don't remove
couchapps, but push them with aggressive marketing'.. well then.. just do
it!
2. Don't mark it absolutely as a marketing issue
And you sould do this, before this could really be faced in front of the
ASF board.
Re: Apache CouchDB Code of Conduct reminder
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>.
Hi Joan,
thanks for the reminder. I was thinking about pointing to the CoC when I
replied to Giovanni but I thought it will be fixable without it. But I
appreciate your action here!
I think this is now fixed as Giovanni thankfully replied in a very
respectful way. Giovanni - thanks for that.
Now - let's discuss the topic further ;-)
All the best
Andy
On 7 May 2015 at 16:32, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> I'd like to take this opportunity to remind everyone of the Code
> of Conduct (CoC). Apache CouchDB's CoC is now also the Apache
> Software Foundation's CoC. In there, we state:
>
> If you believe someone is violating this code of conduct, you may reply to
> them and point out this code of conduct. Such messages may be in public or
> in private, whatever is most appropriate. Assume good faith; it is more
> likely that participants are unaware of their bad behaviour than that they
> intentionally try to degrade the quality of the discussion. Should there be
> difficulties in dealing with the situation, you may report your compliance
> issues in confidence to private@couchdb.apache.org.
>
> There's some good minds on this list. Everyone has an opinion.
> And, as far as I can tell, everyone is trying hard to improve the
> visibility and viability of CouchDB. If you are seriously concerned
> about someone's actions, please follow the reporting guidelines and
> attempt to deal with issues off of the mailing lists. Should this
> fail, or you are uncomfortable confronting the individual directly,
> you can call in our private@ mailing list - and the PMC will step in
> to try and resolve issues amicably.
>
> I'm super glad this mini storm in a teacup resolved itself without
> having to resort to more drastic measures.
>
> -Joan
>
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
http://www.couchdb-buch.de
http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Apache CouchDB Code of Conduct reminder
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
I'd like to take this opportunity to remind everyone of the Code
of Conduct (CoC). Apache CouchDB's CoC is now also the Apache
Software Foundation's CoC. In there, we state:
If you believe someone is violating this code of conduct, you may reply to them and point out this code of conduct. Such messages may be in public or in private, whatever is most appropriate. Assume good faith; it is more likely that participants are unaware of their bad behaviour than that they intentionally try to degrade the quality of the discussion. Should there be difficulties in dealing with the situation, you may report your compliance issues in confidence to private@couchdb.apache.org.
There's some good minds on this list. Everyone has an opinion.
And, as far as I can tell, everyone is trying hard to improve the
visibility and viability of CouchDB. If you are seriously concerned
about someone's actions, please follow the reporting guidelines and
attempt to deal with issues off of the mailing lists. Should this
fail, or you are uncomfortable confronting the individual directly,
you can call in our private@ mailing list - and the PMC will step in
to try and resolve issues amicably.
I'm super glad this mini storm in a teacup resolved itself without
having to resort to more drastic measures.
-Joan
Re: Jan bias for Hoodie brought him to eradicate couchapps?!?!
Posted by Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com>.
Hi Jan,
I'm very sorry for the tone!
I am looking forward working on this for a good solution for everyone
Best
2015-05-07 13:15 GMT+02:00 Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>:
> Giovanni,
>
> I'd appreciate it if you'd lay off the personal attacks. I have nothing
> but the best interests of CouchDB in mind. If you are arguing against me,
> start from that premise.
>
> Best
> Jan
> --
>
> > On 07.05.2015, at 05:13, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
> >
> > Jan.. don't you think you are simply too biased for external projects,
> such
> > as your hoodie and pouchdb, to choose by your own, on a topic like
> > 'retiring couchapps', so important to couchdb users and devs?
> >
> > You REALLY can't mask it behind a marketing@ decision, of finding a
> story
> > you have already written, since a long time, and that you simply don'want
> > to change. Your story of the "data where you need it", does not have
> users
> > and industries consensus. You can't hide it!
> >
> > You started with changing tooling names, sutting down couchapp domains
> and
> > forcing our company to change our old couchappy name (even if couchapp
> > wasn't even a trademark). We did it, because you promised visibility to
> us
> > and couchapps, which has never happened. We believed in your words and in
> > an healty pmc, but after this last move, we really can't think it
> anymore.
> >
> > Couchapps are now much more powerful than they were in the past, also
> > thanks to our smileupps tutorials and app store platform, and to many
> other
> > improvements proposal already advanced by users, who instead would like
> to
> > improve them, not the contrary!!!
> >
> > Your chance now is to completely eradicate a main recruiting couchdb
> > feature, before users can get aware of its potential, leading couchdb
> > towards a probable self-killing action. And the worst is you are doing
> > this, without any proven evidence and motivation, withouth asking devs of
> > its development complexity, and users what they think about it.
> >
> > I definetely think you should:
> > 1. HEAR YOUR COMMUNITY AND DEVS.. and if the consensus is 'don't remove
> > couchapps, but push them with aggressive marketing'.. well then.. just do
> > it!
> > 2. Don't mark it absolutely as a marketing issue
> >
> > And you sould do this, before this could really be faced in front of the
> > ASF board.
>
--
Giovanni Lenzi
www.smileupps.com
Smileupps Couchapps Store
Re: Jan bias for Hoodie brought him to eradicate couchapps?!?!
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
Giovanni,
I'd appreciate it if you'd lay off the personal attacks. I have nothing but the best interests of CouchDB in mind. If you are arguing against me, start from that premise.
Best
Jan
--
> On 07.05.2015, at 05:13, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
>
> Jan.. don't you think you are simply too biased for external projects, such
> as your hoodie and pouchdb, to choose by your own, on a topic like
> 'retiring couchapps', so important to couchdb users and devs?
>
> You REALLY can't mask it behind a marketing@ decision, of finding a story
> you have already written, since a long time, and that you simply don'want
> to change. Your story of the "data where you need it", does not have users
> and industries consensus. You can't hide it!
>
> You started with changing tooling names, sutting down couchapp domains and
> forcing our company to change our old couchappy name (even if couchapp
> wasn't even a trademark). We did it, because you promised visibility to us
> and couchapps, which has never happened. We believed in your words and in
> an healty pmc, but after this last move, we really can't think it anymore.
>
> Couchapps are now much more powerful than they were in the past, also
> thanks to our smileupps tutorials and app store platform, and to many other
> improvements proposal already advanced by users, who instead would like to
> improve them, not the contrary!!!
>
> Your chance now is to completely eradicate a main recruiting couchdb
> feature, before users can get aware of its potential, leading couchdb
> towards a probable self-killing action. And the worst is you are doing
> this, without any proven evidence and motivation, withouth asking devs of
> its development complexity, and users what they think about it.
>
> I definetely think you should:
> 1. HEAR YOUR COMMUNITY AND DEVS.. and if the consensus is 'don't remove
> couchapps, but push them with aggressive marketing'.. well then.. just do
> it!
> 2. Don't mark it absolutely as a marketing issue
>
> And you sould do this, before this could really be faced in front of the
> ASF board.
Fwd: Jan bias for Hoodie brought him to eradicate couchapps?!?!
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org>.
fyi ...
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com>
Date: 7 May 2015 at 10:53
Subject: Re: Jan bias for Hoodie brought him to eradicate couchapps?!?!
To: dev@couchdb.apache.org, andy@nms.de
Ok Andy,
I'm very sorry for the tone.
Yes, that's my very personal fear of this story... but it was all that
happened that lead me to these considerations. Also the fact that
Iriscouch, which is advocated by Jan and has Couch in its name, is still
there, sounded strange to me.
However I trust you, and I want to trust that PMC is acting solely to
address project health. Really :)
Smileupps is biased of course, there are no hidden secrets here: we are a
CouchDB hosting and our business is around CouchDB and Couchapps. But we
are helping with free hosting and tutorials and we would like to promote
such a great thing called Couchapp. We don't want to add our specific
feature or remove anything, couchapps are already there.
> Please accept this and help us further to achieve this goal
Of course, I hope I may help you further to achieve it.
Cheers
2015-05-07 10:17 GMT+02:00 Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>:
> Hi Giovanni,
>
> I don't like the underlying tone of your email. You are missing one
> important thing here and I ask you friendly to keep this in mind for
> further communications. Jan is the Vice President of Apache CouchDB.
> Without any question I can confirm, that he is able to separate between the
> Apache CouchDB project and Hoodie.
>
> The point we asked you to change the name of your service has solely to do
> with guidelines we are following and you did not follow. This has not at
> all to do with anything regarding the companies we work for (Cloudant,
> Hoodie ...) but solely the Apache CouchDB project.
>
> What I can read between the lines of the email above is fear to loose a
> core concept you have built your service on and the Apache CouchDB project
> trying to rip this off. This is not true at all. We try to find a solution
> for ways to make CouchDB more awesome. Please accept this and help us
> further to achieve this goal.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
> On 7 May 2015 at 05:13, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
>
> > Jan.. don't you think you are simply too biased for external projects,
> such
> > as your hoodie and pouchdb, to choose by your own, on a topic like
> > 'retiring couchapps', so important to couchdb users and devs?
> >
> > You REALLY can't mask it behind a marketing@ decision, of finding a
> story
> > you have already written, since a long time, and that you simply don'want
> > to change. Your story of the "data where you need it", does not have
> users
> > and industries consensus. You can't hide it!
> >
> > You started with changing tooling names, sutting down couchapp domains
> and
> > forcing our company to change our old couchappy name (even if couchapp
> > wasn't even a trademark). We did it, because you promised visibility to
> us
> > and couchapps, which has never happened. We believed in your words and in
> > an healty pmc, but after this last move, we really can't think it
> anymore.
> >
> > Couchapps are now much more powerful than they were in the past, also
> > thanks to our smileupps tutorials and app store platform, and to many
> other
> > improvements proposal already advanced by users, who instead would like
> to
> > improve them, not the contrary!!!
> >
> > Your chance now is to completely eradicate a main recruiting couchdb
> > feature, before users can get aware of its potential, leading couchdb
> > towards a probable self-killing action. And the worst is you are doing
> > this, without any proven evidence and motivation, withouth asking devs of
> > its development complexity, and users what they think about it.
> >
> > I definetely think you should:
> > 1. HEAR YOUR COMMUNITY AND DEVS.. and if the consensus is 'don't remove
> > couchapps, but push them with aggressive marketing'.. well then.. just do
> > it!
> > 2. Don't mark it absolutely as a marketing issue
> >
> > And you sould do this, before this could really be faced in front of the
> > ASF board.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Andy Wenk
> Hamburg - Germany
> RockIt!
>
> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
>
> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>
> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
>
--
Giovanni Lenzi
www.smileupps.com
Smileupps Couchapps Store
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Jan bias for Hoodie brought him to eradicate couchapps?!?!
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>.
Hi Giovanni,
thanks a lot for your reply. I am looking forward working on this with you
to find a good solution for everyone ;-)
Cheers
Andy
On 7 May 2015 at 10:53, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
> Ok Andy,
>
> I'm very sorry for the tone.
>
> Yes, that's my very personal fear of this story... but it was all that
> happened that lead me to these considerations. Also the fact that
> Iriscouch, which is advocated by Jan and has Couch in its name, is still
> there, sounded strange to me.
>
> However I trust you, and I want to trust that PMC is acting solely to
> address project health. Really :)
>
> Smileupps is biased of course, there are no hidden secrets here: we are a
> CouchDB hosting and our business is around CouchDB and Couchapps. But we
> are helping with free hosting and tutorials and we would like to promote
> such a great thing called Couchapp. We don't want to add our specific
> feature or remove anything, couchapps are already there.
>
> > Please accept this and help us further to achieve this goal
> Of course, I hope I may help you further to achieve it.
>
> Cheers
>
> 2015-05-07 10:17 GMT+02:00 Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>:
>
>> Hi Giovanni,
>>
>> I don't like the underlying tone of your email. You are missing one
>> important thing here and I ask you friendly to keep this in mind for
>> further communications. Jan is the Vice President of Apache CouchDB.
>> Without any question I can confirm, that he is able to separate between
>> the
>> Apache CouchDB project and Hoodie.
>>
>> The point we asked you to change the name of your service has solely to do
>> with guidelines we are following and you did not follow. This has not at
>> all to do with anything regarding the companies we work for (Cloudant,
>> Hoodie ...) but solely the Apache CouchDB project.
>>
>> What I can read between the lines of the email above is fear to loose a
>> core concept you have built your service on and the Apache CouchDB project
>> trying to rip this off. This is not true at all. We try to find a solution
>> for ways to make CouchDB more awesome. Please accept this and help us
>> further to achieve this goal.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> On 7 May 2015 at 05:13, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Jan.. don't you think you are simply too biased for external projects,
>> such
>> > as your hoodie and pouchdb, to choose by your own, on a topic like
>> > 'retiring couchapps', so important to couchdb users and devs?
>> >
>> > You REALLY can't mask it behind a marketing@ decision, of finding a
>> story
>> > you have already written, since a long time, and that you simply
>> don'want
>> > to change. Your story of the "data where you need it", does not have
>> users
>> > and industries consensus. You can't hide it!
>> >
>> > You started with changing tooling names, sutting down couchapp domains
>> and
>> > forcing our company to change our old couchappy name (even if couchapp
>> > wasn't even a trademark). We did it, because you promised visibility to
>> us
>> > and couchapps, which has never happened. We believed in your words and
>> in
>> > an healty pmc, but after this last move, we really can't think it
>> anymore.
>> >
>> > Couchapps are now much more powerful than they were in the past, also
>> > thanks to our smileupps tutorials and app store platform, and to many
>> other
>> > improvements proposal already advanced by users, who instead would like
>> to
>> > improve them, not the contrary!!!
>> >
>> > Your chance now is to completely eradicate a main recruiting couchdb
>> > feature, before users can get aware of its potential, leading couchdb
>> > towards a probable self-killing action. And the worst is you are doing
>> > this, without any proven evidence and motivation, withouth asking devs
>> of
>> > its development complexity, and users what they think about it.
>> >
>> > I definetely think you should:
>> > 1. HEAR YOUR COMMUNITY AND DEVS.. and if the consensus is 'don't remove
>> > couchapps, but push them with aggressive marketing'.. well then.. just
>> do
>> > it!
>> > 2. Don't mark it absolutely as a marketing issue
>> >
>> > And you sould do this, before this could really be faced in front of the
>> > ASF board.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andy Wenk
>> Hamburg - Germany
>> RockIt!
>>
>> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
>> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
>>
>> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>>
>> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Giovanni Lenzi
> www.smileupps.com
> Smileupps Couchapps Store
>
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
http://www.couchdb-buch.de
http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Fwd: Jan bias for Hoodie brought him to eradicate couchapps?!?!
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org>.
fyi ...
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com>
Date: 7 May 2015 at 10:53
Subject: Re: Jan bias for Hoodie brought him to eradicate couchapps?!?!
To: dev@couchdb.apache.org, andy@nms.de
Ok Andy,
I'm very sorry for the tone.
Yes, that's my very personal fear of this story... but it was all that
happened that lead me to these considerations. Also the fact that
Iriscouch, which is advocated by Jan and has Couch in its name, is still
there, sounded strange to me.
However I trust you, and I want to trust that PMC is acting solely to
address project health. Really :)
Smileupps is biased of course, there are no hidden secrets here: we are a
CouchDB hosting and our business is around CouchDB and Couchapps. But we
are helping with free hosting and tutorials and we would like to promote
such a great thing called Couchapp. We don't want to add our specific
feature or remove anything, couchapps are already there.
> Please accept this and help us further to achieve this goal
Of course, I hope I may help you further to achieve it.
Cheers
2015-05-07 10:17 GMT+02:00 Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>:
> Hi Giovanni,
>
> I don't like the underlying tone of your email. You are missing one
> important thing here and I ask you friendly to keep this in mind for
> further communications. Jan is the Vice President of Apache CouchDB.
> Without any question I can confirm, that he is able to separate between the
> Apache CouchDB project and Hoodie.
>
> The point we asked you to change the name of your service has solely to do
> with guidelines we are following and you did not follow. This has not at
> all to do with anything regarding the companies we work for (Cloudant,
> Hoodie ...) but solely the Apache CouchDB project.
>
> What I can read between the lines of the email above is fear to loose a
> core concept you have built your service on and the Apache CouchDB project
> trying to rip this off. This is not true at all. We try to find a solution
> for ways to make CouchDB more awesome. Please accept this and help us
> further to achieve this goal.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
> On 7 May 2015 at 05:13, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
>
> > Jan.. don't you think you are simply too biased for external projects,
> such
> > as your hoodie and pouchdb, to choose by your own, on a topic like
> > 'retiring couchapps', so important to couchdb users and devs?
> >
> > You REALLY can't mask it behind a marketing@ decision, of finding a
> story
> > you have already written, since a long time, and that you simply don'want
> > to change. Your story of the "data where you need it", does not have
> users
> > and industries consensus. You can't hide it!
> >
> > You started with changing tooling names, sutting down couchapp domains
> and
> > forcing our company to change our old couchappy name (even if couchapp
> > wasn't even a trademark). We did it, because you promised visibility to
> us
> > and couchapps, which has never happened. We believed in your words and in
> > an healty pmc, but after this last move, we really can't think it
> anymore.
> >
> > Couchapps are now much more powerful than they were in the past, also
> > thanks to our smileupps tutorials and app store platform, and to many
> other
> > improvements proposal already advanced by users, who instead would like
> to
> > improve them, not the contrary!!!
> >
> > Your chance now is to completely eradicate a main recruiting couchdb
> > feature, before users can get aware of its potential, leading couchdb
> > towards a probable self-killing action. And the worst is you are doing
> > this, without any proven evidence and motivation, withouth asking devs of
> > its development complexity, and users what they think about it.
> >
> > I definetely think you should:
> > 1. HEAR YOUR COMMUNITY AND DEVS.. and if the consensus is 'don't remove
> > couchapps, but push them with aggressive marketing'.. well then.. just do
> > it!
> > 2. Don't mark it absolutely as a marketing issue
> >
> > And you sould do this, before this could really be faced in front of the
> > ASF board.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Andy Wenk
> Hamburg - Germany
> RockIt!
>
> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
>
> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>
> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
>
--
Giovanni Lenzi
www.smileupps.com
Smileupps Couchapps Store
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Jan bias for Hoodie brought him to eradicate couchapps?!?!
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>.
Hi Giovanni,
thanks a lot for your reply. I am looking forward working on this with you
to find a good solution for everyone ;-)
Cheers
Andy
On 7 May 2015 at 10:53, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
> Ok Andy,
>
> I'm very sorry for the tone.
>
> Yes, that's my very personal fear of this story... but it was all that
> happened that lead me to these considerations. Also the fact that
> Iriscouch, which is advocated by Jan and has Couch in its name, is still
> there, sounded strange to me.
>
> However I trust you, and I want to trust that PMC is acting solely to
> address project health. Really :)
>
> Smileupps is biased of course, there are no hidden secrets here: we are a
> CouchDB hosting and our business is around CouchDB and Couchapps. But we
> are helping with free hosting and tutorials and we would like to promote
> such a great thing called Couchapp. We don't want to add our specific
> feature or remove anything, couchapps are already there.
>
> > Please accept this and help us further to achieve this goal
> Of course, I hope I may help you further to achieve it.
>
> Cheers
>
> 2015-05-07 10:17 GMT+02:00 Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>:
>
>> Hi Giovanni,
>>
>> I don't like the underlying tone of your email. You are missing one
>> important thing here and I ask you friendly to keep this in mind for
>> further communications. Jan is the Vice President of Apache CouchDB.
>> Without any question I can confirm, that he is able to separate between
>> the
>> Apache CouchDB project and Hoodie.
>>
>> The point we asked you to change the name of your service has solely to do
>> with guidelines we are following and you did not follow. This has not at
>> all to do with anything regarding the companies we work for (Cloudant,
>> Hoodie ...) but solely the Apache CouchDB project.
>>
>> What I can read between the lines of the email above is fear to loose a
>> core concept you have built your service on and the Apache CouchDB project
>> trying to rip this off. This is not true at all. We try to find a solution
>> for ways to make CouchDB more awesome. Please accept this and help us
>> further to achieve this goal.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> On 7 May 2015 at 05:13, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Jan.. don't you think you are simply too biased for external projects,
>> such
>> > as your hoodie and pouchdb, to choose by your own, on a topic like
>> > 'retiring couchapps', so important to couchdb users and devs?
>> >
>> > You REALLY can't mask it behind a marketing@ decision, of finding a
>> story
>> > you have already written, since a long time, and that you simply
>> don'want
>> > to change. Your story of the "data where you need it", does not have
>> users
>> > and industries consensus. You can't hide it!
>> >
>> > You started with changing tooling names, sutting down couchapp domains
>> and
>> > forcing our company to change our old couchappy name (even if couchapp
>> > wasn't even a trademark). We did it, because you promised visibility to
>> us
>> > and couchapps, which has never happened. We believed in your words and
>> in
>> > an healty pmc, but after this last move, we really can't think it
>> anymore.
>> >
>> > Couchapps are now much more powerful than they were in the past, also
>> > thanks to our smileupps tutorials and app store platform, and to many
>> other
>> > improvements proposal already advanced by users, who instead would like
>> to
>> > improve them, not the contrary!!!
>> >
>> > Your chance now is to completely eradicate a main recruiting couchdb
>> > feature, before users can get aware of its potential, leading couchdb
>> > towards a probable self-killing action. And the worst is you are doing
>> > this, without any proven evidence and motivation, withouth asking devs
>> of
>> > its development complexity, and users what they think about it.
>> >
>> > I definetely think you should:
>> > 1. HEAR YOUR COMMUNITY AND DEVS.. and if the consensus is 'don't remove
>> > couchapps, but push them with aggressive marketing'.. well then.. just
>> do
>> > it!
>> > 2. Don't mark it absolutely as a marketing issue
>> >
>> > And you sould do this, before this could really be faced in front of the
>> > ASF board.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andy Wenk
>> Hamburg - Germany
>> RockIt!
>>
>> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
>> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
>>
>> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>>
>> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Giovanni Lenzi
> www.smileupps.com
> Smileupps Couchapps Store
>
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
http://www.couchdb-buch.de
http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Jan bias for Hoodie brought him to eradicate couchapps?!?!
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>.
Hi Giovanni,
thanks a lot for your reply. I am looking forward working on this with you
to find a good solution for everyone ;-)
Cheers
Andy
On 7 May 2015 at 10:53, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
> Ok Andy,
>
> I'm very sorry for the tone.
>
> Yes, that's my very personal fear of this story... but it was all that
> happened that lead me to these considerations. Also the fact that
> Iriscouch, which is advocated by Jan and has Couch in its name, is still
> there, sounded strange to me.
>
> However I trust you, and I want to trust that PMC is acting solely to
> address project health. Really :)
>
> Smileupps is biased of course, there are no hidden secrets here: we are a
> CouchDB hosting and our business is around CouchDB and Couchapps. But we
> are helping with free hosting and tutorials and we would like to promote
> such a great thing called Couchapp. We don't want to add our specific
> feature or remove anything, couchapps are already there.
>
> > Please accept this and help us further to achieve this goal
> Of course, I hope I may help you further to achieve it.
>
> Cheers
>
> 2015-05-07 10:17 GMT+02:00 Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>:
>
>> Hi Giovanni,
>>
>> I don't like the underlying tone of your email. You are missing one
>> important thing here and I ask you friendly to keep this in mind for
>> further communications. Jan is the Vice President of Apache CouchDB.
>> Without any question I can confirm, that he is able to separate between
>> the
>> Apache CouchDB project and Hoodie.
>>
>> The point we asked you to change the name of your service has solely to do
>> with guidelines we are following and you did not follow. This has not at
>> all to do with anything regarding the companies we work for (Cloudant,
>> Hoodie ...) but solely the Apache CouchDB project.
>>
>> What I can read between the lines of the email above is fear to loose a
>> core concept you have built your service on and the Apache CouchDB project
>> trying to rip this off. This is not true at all. We try to find a solution
>> for ways to make CouchDB more awesome. Please accept this and help us
>> further to achieve this goal.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> On 7 May 2015 at 05:13, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Jan.. don't you think you are simply too biased for external projects,
>> such
>> > as your hoodie and pouchdb, to choose by your own, on a topic like
>> > 'retiring couchapps', so important to couchdb users and devs?
>> >
>> > You REALLY can't mask it behind a marketing@ decision, of finding a
>> story
>> > you have already written, since a long time, and that you simply
>> don'want
>> > to change. Your story of the "data where you need it", does not have
>> users
>> > and industries consensus. You can't hide it!
>> >
>> > You started with changing tooling names, sutting down couchapp domains
>> and
>> > forcing our company to change our old couchappy name (even if couchapp
>> > wasn't even a trademark). We did it, because you promised visibility to
>> us
>> > and couchapps, which has never happened. We believed in your words and
>> in
>> > an healty pmc, but after this last move, we really can't think it
>> anymore.
>> >
>> > Couchapps are now much more powerful than they were in the past, also
>> > thanks to our smileupps tutorials and app store platform, and to many
>> other
>> > improvements proposal already advanced by users, who instead would like
>> to
>> > improve them, not the contrary!!!
>> >
>> > Your chance now is to completely eradicate a main recruiting couchdb
>> > feature, before users can get aware of its potential, leading couchdb
>> > towards a probable self-killing action. And the worst is you are doing
>> > this, without any proven evidence and motivation, withouth asking devs
>> of
>> > its development complexity, and users what they think about it.
>> >
>> > I definetely think you should:
>> > 1. HEAR YOUR COMMUNITY AND DEVS.. and if the consensus is 'don't remove
>> > couchapps, but push them with aggressive marketing'.. well then.. just
>> do
>> > it!
>> > 2. Don't mark it absolutely as a marketing issue
>> >
>> > And you sould do this, before this could really be faced in front of the
>> > ASF board.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andy Wenk
>> Hamburg - Germany
>> RockIt!
>>
>> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
>> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
>>
>> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>>
>> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Giovanni Lenzi
> www.smileupps.com
> Smileupps Couchapps Store
>
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
http://www.couchdb-buch.de
http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Jan bias for Hoodie brought him to eradicate couchapps?!?!
Posted by Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com>.
Ok Andy,
I'm very sorry for the tone.
Yes, that's my very personal fear of this story... but it was all that
happened that lead me to these considerations. Also the fact that
Iriscouch, which is advocated by Jan and has Couch in its name, is still
there, sounded strange to me.
However I trust you, and I want to trust that PMC is acting solely to
address project health. Really :)
Smileupps is biased of course, there are no hidden secrets here: we are a
CouchDB hosting and our business is around CouchDB and Couchapps. But we
are helping with free hosting and tutorials and we would like to promote
such a great thing called Couchapp. We don't want to add our specific
feature or remove anything, couchapps are already there.
> Please accept this and help us further to achieve this goal
Of course, I hope I may help you further to achieve it.
Cheers
2015-05-07 10:17 GMT+02:00 Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>:
> Hi Giovanni,
>
> I don't like the underlying tone of your email. You are missing one
> important thing here and I ask you friendly to keep this in mind for
> further communications. Jan is the Vice President of Apache CouchDB.
> Without any question I can confirm, that he is able to separate between the
> Apache CouchDB project and Hoodie.
>
> The point we asked you to change the name of your service has solely to do
> with guidelines we are following and you did not follow. This has not at
> all to do with anything regarding the companies we work for (Cloudant,
> Hoodie ...) but solely the Apache CouchDB project.
>
> What I can read between the lines of the email above is fear to loose a
> core concept you have built your service on and the Apache CouchDB project
> trying to rip this off. This is not true at all. We try to find a solution
> for ways to make CouchDB more awesome. Please accept this and help us
> further to achieve this goal.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
> On 7 May 2015 at 05:13, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
>
> > Jan.. don't you think you are simply too biased for external projects,
> such
> > as your hoodie and pouchdb, to choose by your own, on a topic like
> > 'retiring couchapps', so important to couchdb users and devs?
> >
> > You REALLY can't mask it behind a marketing@ decision, of finding a
> story
> > you have already written, since a long time, and that you simply don'want
> > to change. Your story of the "data where you need it", does not have
> users
> > and industries consensus. You can't hide it!
> >
> > You started with changing tooling names, sutting down couchapp domains
> and
> > forcing our company to change our old couchappy name (even if couchapp
> > wasn't even a trademark). We did it, because you promised visibility to
> us
> > and couchapps, which has never happened. We believed in your words and in
> > an healty pmc, but after this last move, we really can't think it
> anymore.
> >
> > Couchapps are now much more powerful than they were in the past, also
> > thanks to our smileupps tutorials and app store platform, and to many
> other
> > improvements proposal already advanced by users, who instead would like
> to
> > improve them, not the contrary!!!
> >
> > Your chance now is to completely eradicate a main recruiting couchdb
> > feature, before users can get aware of its potential, leading couchdb
> > towards a probable self-killing action. And the worst is you are doing
> > this, without any proven evidence and motivation, withouth asking devs of
> > its development complexity, and users what they think about it.
> >
> > I definetely think you should:
> > 1. HEAR YOUR COMMUNITY AND DEVS.. and if the consensus is 'don't remove
> > couchapps, but push them with aggressive marketing'.. well then.. just do
> > it!
> > 2. Don't mark it absolutely as a marketing issue
> >
> > And you sould do this, before this could really be faced in front of the
> > ASF board.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Andy Wenk
> Hamburg - Germany
> RockIt!
>
> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
>
> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>
> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
>
--
Giovanni Lenzi
www.smileupps.com
Smileupps Couchapps Store
Re: Jan bias for Hoodie brought him to eradicate couchapps?!?!
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>.
Hi Giovanni,
I don't like the underlying tone of your email. You are missing one
important thing here and I ask you friendly to keep this in mind for
further communications. Jan is the Vice President of Apache CouchDB.
Without any question I can confirm, that he is able to separate between the
Apache CouchDB project and Hoodie.
The point we asked you to change the name of your service has solely to do
with guidelines we are following and you did not follow. This has not at
all to do with anything regarding the companies we work for (Cloudant,
Hoodie ...) but solely the Apache CouchDB project.
What I can read between the lines of the email above is fear to loose a
core concept you have built your service on and the Apache CouchDB project
trying to rip this off. This is not true at all. We try to find a solution
for ways to make CouchDB more awesome. Please accept this and help us
further to achieve this goal.
Cheers
Andy
On 7 May 2015 at 05:13, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
> Jan.. don't you think you are simply too biased for external projects, such
> as your hoodie and pouchdb, to choose by your own, on a topic like
> 'retiring couchapps', so important to couchdb users and devs?
>
> You REALLY can't mask it behind a marketing@ decision, of finding a story
> you have already written, since a long time, and that you simply don'want
> to change. Your story of the "data where you need it", does not have users
> and industries consensus. You can't hide it!
>
> You started with changing tooling names, sutting down couchapp domains and
> forcing our company to change our old couchappy name (even if couchapp
> wasn't even a trademark). We did it, because you promised visibility to us
> and couchapps, which has never happened. We believed in your words and in
> an healty pmc, but after this last move, we really can't think it anymore.
>
> Couchapps are now much more powerful than they were in the past, also
> thanks to our smileupps tutorials and app store platform, and to many other
> improvements proposal already advanced by users, who instead would like to
> improve them, not the contrary!!!
>
> Your chance now is to completely eradicate a main recruiting couchdb
> feature, before users can get aware of its potential, leading couchdb
> towards a probable self-killing action. And the worst is you are doing
> this, without any proven evidence and motivation, withouth asking devs of
> its development complexity, and users what they think about it.
>
> I definetely think you should:
> 1. HEAR YOUR COMMUNITY AND DEVS.. and if the consensus is 'don't remove
> couchapps, but push them with aggressive marketing'.. well then.. just do
> it!
> 2. Don't mark it absolutely as a marketing issue
>
> And you sould do this, before this could really be faced in front of the
> ASF board.
>
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
http://www.couchdb-buch.de
http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Jan bias for Hoodie brought him to eradicate couchapps?!?!
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
Giovanni,
I'd appreciate it if you'd lay off the personal attacks. I have nothing but the best interests of CouchDB in mind. If you are arguing against me, start from that premise.
Best
Jan
--
> On 07.05.2015, at 05:13, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
>
> Jan.. don't you think you are simply too biased for external projects, such
> as your hoodie and pouchdb, to choose by your own, on a topic like
> 'retiring couchapps', so important to couchdb users and devs?
>
> You REALLY can't mask it behind a marketing@ decision, of finding a story
> you have already written, since a long time, and that you simply don'want
> to change. Your story of the "data where you need it", does not have users
> and industries consensus. You can't hide it!
>
> You started with changing tooling names, sutting down couchapp domains and
> forcing our company to change our old couchappy name (even if couchapp
> wasn't even a trademark). We did it, because you promised visibility to us
> and couchapps, which has never happened. We believed in your words and in
> an healty pmc, but after this last move, we really can't think it anymore.
>
> Couchapps are now much more powerful than they were in the past, also
> thanks to our smileupps tutorials and app store platform, and to many other
> improvements proposal already advanced by users, who instead would like to
> improve them, not the contrary!!!
>
> Your chance now is to completely eradicate a main recruiting couchdb
> feature, before users can get aware of its potential, leading couchdb
> towards a probable self-killing action. And the worst is you are doing
> this, without any proven evidence and motivation, withouth asking devs of
> its development complexity, and users what they think about it.
>
> I definetely think you should:
> 1. HEAR YOUR COMMUNITY AND DEVS.. and if the consensus is 'don't remove
> couchapps, but push them with aggressive marketing'.. well then.. just do
> it!
> 2. Don't mark it absolutely as a marketing issue
>
> And you sould do this, before this could really be faced in front of the
> ASF board.
Re: Jan bias for Hoodie brought him to eradicate couchapps?!?!
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
Giovanni,
I'd appreciate it if you'd lay off the personal attacks. I have nothing but the best interests of CouchDB in mind. If you are arguing against me, start from that premise.
Best
Jan
--
> On 07.05.2015, at 05:13, Giovanni Lenzi <g....@smileupps.com> wrote:
>
> Jan.. don't you think you are simply too biased for external projects, such
> as your hoodie and pouchdb, to choose by your own, on a topic like
> 'retiring couchapps', so important to couchdb users and devs?
>
> You REALLY can't mask it behind a marketing@ decision, of finding a story
> you have already written, since a long time, and that you simply don'want
> to change. Your story of the "data where you need it", does not have users
> and industries consensus. You can't hide it!
>
> You started with changing tooling names, sutting down couchapp domains and
> forcing our company to change our old couchappy name (even if couchapp
> wasn't even a trademark). We did it, because you promised visibility to us
> and couchapps, which has never happened. We believed in your words and in
> an healty pmc, but after this last move, we really can't think it anymore.
>
> Couchapps are now much more powerful than they were in the past, also
> thanks to our smileupps tutorials and app store platform, and to many other
> improvements proposal already advanced by users, who instead would like to
> improve them, not the contrary!!!
>
> Your chance now is to completely eradicate a main recruiting couchdb
> feature, before users can get aware of its potential, leading couchdb
> towards a probable self-killing action. And the worst is you are doing
> this, without any proven evidence and motivation, withouth asking devs of
> its development complexity, and users what they think about it.
>
> I definetely think you should:
> 1. HEAR YOUR COMMUNITY AND DEVS.. and if the consensus is 'don't remove
> couchapps, but push them with aggressive marketing'.. well then.. just do
> it!
> 2. Don't mark it absolutely as a marketing issue
>
> And you sould do this, before this could really be faced in front of the
> ASF board.