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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com> on 2013/10/08 20:51:06 UTC
Author of Apache License V2
I've been asked who authored the Apache license V2. I've given the "it was
a community effort with advice from a number of lawyers" but wondered if
there are more details I can give.
The question came from a lawyer doing some background research.
Ross
Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
Senior Technology Evangelist
Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
Re: Author of Apache License V2
Posted by Richard Fontana <rf...@redhat.com>.
I once heard someone speculate that Larry was the author, but I think
we can now rule that theory out. :)
On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 08:39:54PM +0000, Philip Odence wrote:
> For what it's worth somewhere I heard (and I can't remember from whom)
> that Brian Behlendorf was the architect of the license. I did a little
> googling and turned up nothing that could support that, however.
>
>
>
> On 10/8/13 1:23 PM, "Lawrence Rosen" <lr...@rosenlaw.com> wrote:
>
> >A bit of additional history that is hearsay but perhaps confirmable....
> >
> >I heard several years
> >later that the principal legal input during drafting of ALv2, particularly
> >for its patent-related provisions, came from IBM attorneys. I also heard
> >that there were objections to certain ALv2 provisions from FSF and its
> >attorneys at the time that may have resulted in wording changes during the
> >drafting process. (Nevertheless ALv2 was deemed /incompatible/ with
> >GPLv2, a
> >problem which persisted until GPLv3.) FWIW, I wrote at the time that ALv2
> >was "much more robust" and "a dramatic improvement over its predecessor."
> >
> >People also told me that Roy Fielding was the principle leader of the ALv2
> >drafting effort within ASF.
> >
> >Drafting that license was not a widespread community effort that involved
> >many folks outside of Apache Software Foundation at the time. In 2004, as
> >I
> >was writing my book about open source licensing, ASF announced that its
> >board of directors had approved ALv2. That came as a surprise to me and
> >many
> >others, but we liked it. OSI approved ALv2 almost immediately, of course.
> >:-)
> >
> >/Larry
> >
> >Lawrence Rosen
> >Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (www.rosenlaw.com)
> >3001 King Ranch Rd., Ukiah, CA 95482
> >Office: 707-485-1242
> >Linkedin profile: http://linkd.in/XXpHyu
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Danese Cooper [mailto:danese@gmail.com]
> >Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 12:40 PM
> >To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> >Cc: legal-discuss@apache.org
> >Subject: Re: Author of Apache License V2
> >
> >I would agree it was probably Roy.
> >
> >Danese
> >
> >On Oct 8, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Richard Fontana <rf...@redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Wasn't Roy Fielding the principal author?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 11:51:06AM -0700, Ross Gardler wrote:
> >>> I've been asked who authored the Apache license V2. I've given the
> >>> "it was a community effort with advice from a number of lawyers" but
> >>> wondered if there are more details I can give.
> >>>
> >>> The question came from a lawyer doing some background research.
> >>>
> >>> Ross
> >>> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
> >>> Senior Technology Evangelist
> >>> Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
> >>> A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
> >>
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
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Re: Author of Apache License V2
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
It's deep within our mail archives. Search for "Apache License 2.0 (Beta
1)" in https://mail-search.apache.org/ and you will see this [1]
-- dims
[1]
https://mail-search.apache.org/members/private-arch/board/200110.mbox/%3COF76E3611C.9F574CF1-ON85256AE7.005F08C0@raleigh.ibm.com%3E
On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Philip Odence <podence@blackducksoftware.com
> wrote:
> For what it's worth somewhere I heard (and I can't remember from whom)
> that Brian Behlendorf was the architect of the license. I did a little
> googling and turned up nothing that could support that, however.
>
>
>
> On 10/8/13 1:23 PM, "Lawrence Rosen" <lr...@rosenlaw.com> wrote:
>
> >A bit of additional history that is hearsay but perhaps confirmable....
> >
> >I heard several years
> >later that the principal legal input during drafting of ALv2, particularly
> >for its patent-related provisions, came from IBM attorneys. I also heard
> >that there were objections to certain ALv2 provisions from FSF and its
> >attorneys at the time that may have resulted in wording changes during the
> >drafting process. (Nevertheless ALv2 was deemed /incompatible/ with
> >GPLv2, a
> >problem which persisted until GPLv3.) FWIW, I wrote at the time that ALv2
> >was "much more robust" and "a dramatic improvement over its predecessor."
> >
> >People also told me that Roy Fielding was the principle leader of the ALv2
> >drafting effort within ASF.
> >
> >Drafting that license was not a widespread community effort that involved
> >many folks outside of Apache Software Foundation at the time. In 2004, as
> >I
> >was writing my book about open source licensing, ASF announced that its
> >board of directors had approved ALv2. That came as a surprise to me and
> >many
> >others, but we liked it. OSI approved ALv2 almost immediately, of course.
> >:-)
> >
> >/Larry
> >
> >Lawrence Rosen
> >Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (www.rosenlaw.com)
> >3001 King Ranch Rd., Ukiah, CA 95482
> >Office: 707-485-1242
> >Linkedin profile: http://linkd.in/XXpHyu
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Danese Cooper [mailto:danese@gmail.com]
> >Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 12:40 PM
> >To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> >Cc: legal-discuss@apache.org
> >Subject: Re: Author of Apache License V2
> >
> >I would agree it was probably Roy.
> >
> >Danese
> >
> >On Oct 8, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Richard Fontana <rf...@redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Wasn't Roy Fielding the principal author?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 11:51:06AM -0700, Ross Gardler wrote:
> >>> I've been asked who authored the Apache license V2. I've given the
> >>> "it was a community effort with advice from a number of lawyers" but
> >>> wondered if there are more details I can give.
> >>>
> >>> The question came from a lawyer doing some background research.
> >>>
> >>> Ross
> >>> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
> >>> Senior Technology Evangelist
> >>> Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
> >>> A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
> >>
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> >For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
> >
>
>
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>
--
Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
Re: Author of Apache License V2
Posted by Philip Odence <po...@blackducksoftware.com>.
For what it's worth somewhere I heard (and I can't remember from whom)
that Brian Behlendorf was the architect of the license. I did a little
googling and turned up nothing that could support that, however.
On 10/8/13 1:23 PM, "Lawrence Rosen" <lr...@rosenlaw.com> wrote:
>A bit of additional history that is hearsay but perhaps confirmable....
>
>I heard several years
>later that the principal legal input during drafting of ALv2, particularly
>for its patent-related provisions, came from IBM attorneys. I also heard
>that there were objections to certain ALv2 provisions from FSF and its
>attorneys at the time that may have resulted in wording changes during the
>drafting process. (Nevertheless ALv2 was deemed /incompatible/ with
>GPLv2, a
>problem which persisted until GPLv3.) FWIW, I wrote at the time that ALv2
>was "much more robust" and "a dramatic improvement over its predecessor."
>
>People also told me that Roy Fielding was the principle leader of the ALv2
>drafting effort within ASF.
>
>Drafting that license was not a widespread community effort that involved
>many folks outside of Apache Software Foundation at the time. In 2004, as
>I
>was writing my book about open source licensing, ASF announced that its
>board of directors had approved ALv2. That came as a surprise to me and
>many
>others, but we liked it. OSI approved ALv2 almost immediately, of course.
>:-)
>
>/Larry
>
>Lawrence Rosen
>Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (www.rosenlaw.com)
>3001 King Ranch Rd., Ukiah, CA 95482
>Office: 707-485-1242
>Linkedin profile: http://linkd.in/XXpHyu
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Danese Cooper [mailto:danese@gmail.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 12:40 PM
>To: legal-discuss@apache.org
>Cc: legal-discuss@apache.org
>Subject: Re: Author of Apache License V2
>
>I would agree it was probably Roy.
>
>Danese
>
>On Oct 8, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Richard Fontana <rf...@redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> Wasn't Roy Fielding the principal author?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 11:51:06AM -0700, Ross Gardler wrote:
>>> I've been asked who authored the Apache license V2. I've given the
>>> "it was a community effort with advice from a number of lawyers" but
>>> wondered if there are more details I can give.
>>>
>>> The question came from a lawyer doing some background research.
>>>
>>> Ross
>>> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
>>> Senior Technology Evangelist
>>> Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
>>> A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>>
>
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RE: Author of Apache License V2
Posted by Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>.
A bit of additional history that is hearsay but perhaps confirmable....
I heard several years
later that the principal legal input during drafting of ALv2, particularly
for its patent-related provisions, came from IBM attorneys. I also heard
that there were objections to certain ALv2 provisions from FSF and its
attorneys at the time that may have resulted in wording changes during the
drafting process. (Nevertheless ALv2 was deemed /incompatible/ with GPLv2, a
problem which persisted until GPLv3.) FWIW, I wrote at the time that ALv2
was "much more robust" and "a dramatic improvement over its predecessor."
People also told me that Roy Fielding was the principle leader of the ALv2
drafting effort within ASF.
Drafting that license was not a widespread community effort that involved
many folks outside of Apache Software Foundation at the time. In 2004, as I
was writing my book about open source licensing, ASF announced that its
board of directors had approved ALv2. That came as a surprise to me and many
others, but we liked it. OSI approved ALv2 almost immediately, of course.
:-)
/Larry
Lawrence Rosen
Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (www.rosenlaw.com)
3001 King Ranch Rd., Ukiah, CA 95482
Office: 707-485-1242
Linkedin profile: http://linkd.in/XXpHyu
-----Original Message-----
From: Danese Cooper [mailto:danese@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 12:40 PM
To: legal-discuss@apache.org
Cc: legal-discuss@apache.org
Subject: Re: Author of Apache License V2
I would agree it was probably Roy.
Danese
On Oct 8, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Richard Fontana <rf...@redhat.com> wrote:
> Wasn't Roy Fielding the principal author?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 11:51:06AM -0700, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> I've been asked who authored the Apache license V2. I've given the
>> "it was a community effort with advice from a number of lawyers" but
>> wondered if there are more details I can give.
>>
>> The question came from a lawyer doing some background research.
>>
>> Ross
>> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
>> Senior Technology Evangelist
>> Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
>> A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Author of Apache License V2
Posted by Danese Cooper <da...@gmail.com>.
I would agree it was probably Roy.
Danese
On Oct 8, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Richard Fontana <rf...@redhat.com> wrote:
> Wasn't Roy Fielding the principal author?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 11:51:06AM -0700, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> I've been asked who authored the Apache license V2. I've given the "it was a
>> community effort with advice from a number of lawyers" but wondered if there
>> are more details I can give.
>>
>> The question came from a lawyer doing some background research.
>>
>> Ross
>> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
>> Senior Technology Evangelist
>> Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
>> A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Author of Apache License V2
Posted by Richard Fontana <rf...@redhat.com>.
Wasn't Roy Fielding the principal author?
On Tue, Oct 08, 2013 at 11:51:06AM -0700, Ross Gardler wrote:
> I've been asked who authored the Apache license V2. I've given the "it was a
> community effort with advice from a number of lawyers" but wondered if there
> are more details I can give.
>
> The question came from a lawyer doing some background research.
>
> Ross
> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
> Senior Technology Evangelist
> Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
> A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
>
>
>
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Re: Author of Apache License V2
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
Thank you all. That's a great bit of history - very useful.
Ross
Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
Senior Technology Evangelist
Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
On 9 October 2013 03:15, Roy T. Fielding <fi...@gbiv.com> wrote:
> On Oct 8, 2013, at 5:01 PM, Shane Curcuru wrote:
>
> > On 10/8/13 5:49 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> >> tl;dr;
> >>
> >> basically an effort between Roy and Drew from IBM
> >
> > There certainly was plenty of commentary - it's interesting to see the
> handful of non-Member folks who participated in the discussion, although
> not necessarily the drafting of specific language. There are a couple of
> startling GPL names to see there!
> >
> > However, readers of this public list should be aware that all URLS with
> /private-arch/* (like below) are only accessible to Apache Members, so
> most of you probably won't be able to read along at home. 8-)
>
> Right, and that month of the licensing archive happens to be borked
> right now anyway.
>
> The short answer is that we had an internal mailing list and cvs
> repository in which we discussed what we wanted in a 2.0 license,
> for about six months, and then one of our IBM contributors invited
> Drew (the lawyer that helped us with incorporation) to make a pass
> at a version that met our stated goals and would be acceptable for
> an IBM code contribution they were considering at the same time.
> Folks got excited and reeled in other lawyers to review that proposal,
> which was prematurely called a 2.0 beta.
>
> Unfortunately, that happened on a week in which I wasn't able to
> read Apache mail, so there was some outside discussion before
> I reviewed it. When I did get around to reading it, I proposed
> a different one of my own on 30 Oct 2001, based on clauses derived
> from a bunch of other licenses and more comments from Drew, which
> eventually became the license we use today (after two more years
> of discussion, rephrasing, hacking, internal pushing, and reviews
> by many many lawyers, followed by a public vetting at [1]).
>
> [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/archive-license/
>
> So, yes, I was as close as the license could have to being the author,
> in the IETF sense (having the pen and editing with consistency).
> Drew was careful to note that he was representing IBM in that
> discussion, and we (the ASF licensing committee) balanced that out
> by inviting reviews by lawyers from several other companies, FSF,
> OSI, etc.
>
> ....Roy
>
>
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Re: Author of Apache License V2
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Oct 8, 2013, at 5:01 PM, Shane Curcuru wrote:
> On 10/8/13 5:49 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>> tl;dr;
>>
>> basically an effort between Roy and Drew from IBM
>
> There certainly was plenty of commentary - it's interesting to see the handful of non-Member folks who participated in the discussion, although not necessarily the drafting of specific language. There are a couple of startling GPL names to see there!
>
> However, readers of this public list should be aware that all URLS with /private-arch/* (like below) are only accessible to Apache Members, so most of you probably won't be able to read along at home. 8-)
Right, and that month of the licensing archive happens to be borked
right now anyway.
The short answer is that we had an internal mailing list and cvs
repository in which we discussed what we wanted in a 2.0 license,
for about six months, and then one of our IBM contributors invited
Drew (the lawyer that helped us with incorporation) to make a pass
at a version that met our stated goals and would be acceptable for
an IBM code contribution they were considering at the same time.
Folks got excited and reeled in other lawyers to review that proposal,
which was prematurely called a 2.0 beta.
Unfortunately, that happened on a week in which I wasn't able to
read Apache mail, so there was some outside discussion before
I reviewed it. When I did get around to reading it, I proposed
a different one of my own on 30 Oct 2001, based on clauses derived
from a bunch of other licenses and more comments from Drew, which
eventually became the license we use today (after two more years
of discussion, rephrasing, hacking, internal pushing, and reviews
by many many lawyers, followed by a public vetting at [1]).
[1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/archive-license/
So, yes, I was as close as the license could have to being the author,
in the IETF sense (having the pen and editing with consistency).
Drew was careful to note that he was representing IBM in that
discussion, and we (the ASF licensing committee) balanced that out
by inviting reviews by lawyers from several other companies, FSF,
OSI, etc.
....Roy
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Re: Author of Apache License V2
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
On 10/8/13 5:49 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> tl;dr;
>
> basically an effort between Roy and Drew from IBM
There certainly was plenty of commentary - it's interesting to see the
handful of non-Member folks who participated in the discussion, although
not necessarily the drafting of specific language. There are a couple
of startling GPL names to see there!
However, readers of this public list should be aware that all URLS with
/private-arch/* (like below) are only accessible to Apache Members, so
most of you probably won't be able to read along at home. 8-)
- Shane
>
> On Oct 8, 2013, at 5:43 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> wrote:
>
>> https://mail-search.apache.org/members/private-arch/licensing/200110.mbox/date
>>
>> On Oct 8, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've been asked who authored the Apache license V2. I've given the "it was a community effort with advice from a number of lawyers" but wondered if there are more details I can give.
>>>
>>> The question came from a lawyer doing some background research.
>>>
>>> Ross
>>> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
>>> Senior Technology Evangelist
>>> Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
>>> A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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Re: Author of Apache License V2
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
tl;dr;
basically an effort between Roy and Drew from IBM
On Oct 8, 2013, at 5:43 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> wrote:
> https://mail-search.apache.org/members/private-arch/licensing/200110.mbox/date
>
> On Oct 8, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>
>> I've been asked who authored the Apache license V2. I've given the "it was a community effort with advice from a number of lawyers" but wondered if there are more details I can give.
>>
>> The question came from a lawyer doing some background research.
>>
>> Ross
>> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
>> Senior Technology Evangelist
>> Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
>> A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: Author of Apache License V2
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
https://mail-search.apache.org/members/private-arch/licensing/200110.mbox/date
On Oct 8, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> I've been asked who authored the Apache license V2. I've given the "it was a community effort with advice from a number of lawyers" but wondered if there are more details I can give.
>
> The question came from a lawyer doing some background research.
>
> Ross
> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
> Senior Technology Evangelist
> Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
> A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
>
>
>
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