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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by Howard <hl...@gmail.com> on 2010/02/22 19:15:20 UTC
[Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Or should that be "Late February of Progress". I have to say I'm a bit
envious right now of Rich Hickey ... I can see that he's continuing on
like a steam roller, extending and improving Clojure. I guess he's
having some success in generating Research and Design budget from
funding companies. I can see, following his threads, that he's working
on yet more concurrency metaphors for Clojure, which is a good thing
(though eventually there'll need to be a big book just to describe them
all).
I'm on a different track, in that I fund Tapestry out of pocket while
doing training and project work. In some cases, those merge, such as
when I add specific features to Tapestry for a specific client.
I'm of two minds here: doing project work keeps me grounded in real
requirements for Tapestry. I see what works really well, and what needs
some polishing. On the other hand, I come up with ideas for new
components, improvements, and integrations all the time and barely have
enough free time (between clients, ordinary Tapestry maintenance, and
this special project) to even document my ideas, never mind implement,
test and distribute them.
So, should I set up a funding option like Rich's? Well, that wouldn't
help my current clients (I'm committed to getting their apps into
production), but it may change how I would look for future work.
--
Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 2/22/2010 10:15:00 AM
Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by Renger Wilde <bu...@yahoo.com>.
Howard:
I'm very interested in seeing Tapestry succeed; I've made a significant
design commitment to it, and I'd like to see it work.
I offer the following recommendations that I feel may help you accomplish
these two financial and product-strategy objectives:
a) Increased revenue that doesn't require constant-input labor hours from
you, and
b) Better educational tools about Tapestry which can significantly
influence acceptance / design-win rate
The big problem I encountered using Tapestry was the long learning curve.
It's a very powerful toolset, and it takes a while to understand both its
philosophy of operation and the identity/function of the components.
I suggest:
a. Build a website that enables your many contributors to build
documentation components. Let your community "write the book" about
Tapestry.
b. You edit it for accuracy and completeness.
c. Have the website be a subscriber website. $20/year to subscribe
d. Divide the subscription revenue 20% to you, 80% to the contributors.
e. You decide which documentation components get included in your "book".
The contributors contribute, and you select.
The project that makes this collaborative documentation facility would
(potentially) be in high demand from other open-source projects - many of
which face the same set of hurdles you do.
You already have several contributors that can write the "outline" or
super-structure of the documentation. Use that as the "what we need" bill of
materials. Each documentation element would get a unique section number, and
knowledgeable Tapestry practitioners could sign up to write one or more
sections. Each section would have a (published) "percent of proceeds" number
associated with it, so people would know in advance what share of the annual
revenue they'll get if they write it.
The content could also be submitted to a print-on-demand publisher for those
that like hard-copy.
My guess is that you'd sell about 500 copies the first year of production.
That's only $10K in gross revenue, but that's in the first year. Each year
you'll sell more subscriptions, and the incremental effort to maintain the
documentation would fall appreciably. After year 3, it may be $20-30K in
annual revenue, and the workload would be a small fraction of the year-1
effort.
That's enough detail at this point of the discussion. If this idea is of
interest, not just to Howard but also to the other Tapestry stakeholders,
let me know and we can discuss it further offline.
--
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:34:41 -0300, Markus Joschko
<ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am not sure what Howard earns a year. But I guess if you divide that
> amount by 100$ (the amount clojure asks for per developer) you come up
> with a
> rather large number.
> And how many dedicated tapestry shops are out there that will contribute
> more?
Now we've hit a problem which I can't give a good solution: measuring how
many people and how many companies are using Tapestry. Or any other
software tool. Any ideas? :)
I didn't know about the Closure funding. It seems a good approach. It
could even help us to know how many people use Tapestry, at least the ones
who don't bother donating a small amount to a project that improves Web
app writing productivity. I would love to work part- of full-time
developing Tapestry itself. It makes me sad to have contributed so little
to Tapestry until now.
> Maybe technical supporters was the wrong term. Say developers.
I would say users. Developers may sound like committers (the people who
not only use, but also develop the framework itself).
> I just wanted to make the point
> that a technical framework is probably rarely supported from the
> busines side but rather by enthusiastic developers.
I agree with you. On the other hand, having enthusiastic users is a very
good thing.
Point taken and thanks for the explanations. :)
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da
Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by Ulrich Stärk <ul...@spielviel.de>.
About the Confluence part:
I'm playing with a Confluence wiki right now and I'm evaluating how to import existing content. Once
that's done we can have the website completely in Confluence and published from there. This will
require a new process though because right now the documentation is tied to a specific release.
We'll see how to solve that.
Uli
On 24.02.2010 13:56 schrieb Piero Sartini:
>> I think Tapestry has a very healthy community around it. I guess you're
>> talking about the size of it. The mailing list has many messages per day,
>> people contribute packages, etc.
>
> You are propably right - but it does not 'feel' / look that healthy.
> Maybe the problem again is visibility.
> We have the mailing lists - point taken. But they are very well hidded
> behind a subscription. What would be great is a nice looking forum
> that mirrors the mailing lists.
>
> The thing is if people look at http://tapestry.apache.org the first
> time, they don't see anything about our community. They may find their
> way to the wiki if they are lucky - but then they are faced with a lot
> of Tapestry 4 stuff and MoinMoin. It's hard to find your way around.
>
> From an outside point of view it just does not look like a healthy
> community. Documentation is another topic.. whats there is not bad,
> but it would be much better to have it in Confluence or some other
> system. This way the community could contribute to and discuss the
> articles...
>
> Piero
>
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by Alfonso Quiroga <al...@gmail.com>.
My native language is spanish (Argentina), my second, english. So I can't
read Igor Drobiazko's book, but I'd love to. No chances on english version?
In that case, I could help for a spanish version. Thanks
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Alexander Kiel <al...@gmx.net>wrote:
> Hi,
>
> maybe I can contribute something to this discussion, as I started using
> Tapestry just one week ago.
>
> As you said already, the documentation (aside from the one on
> tapestry.apache.org itself) is somehow wildly scattered around. The wiki
> is, like most wikis, not well structured. There is plenty of just
> obsolete (for T5) stuff. New users like me really scratch there head
> about T4 vs. T5, because they are so different.
>
> It would help to separate the T4 content from the current T5 site so
> that new users see only T5.
>
> After some days trying Tapestry and finding it just great, I simply
> bought the new book from Igor Drobiazko - Tapestry 5: Die Entwicklung
> von Webanwendungen mit Leichtigkeit. Its great. Its very up to date,
> good structured and covers the most aspects of Tapestry. Sadly its only
> available in German. Not a problem for me as native speaker but no help
> for others.
>
> Regards
> Alex
>
> On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:12 +0100, Piero Sartini wrote:
> > > There is one in Nabble (new version at
> > > http://n2.nabble.com/Tapestry-Users-f832.html, old one at
> > > http://old.nabble.com/Tapestry-f302.html), OSDir, MarkMail, etc.
> >
> > Yep - now the question is how to nicely integrate them into
> > http://tapestry.apache.org
> > From a user's perspective, SSO would be great as well (wiki, forum,
> comments)
> >
> > > This is more about site and documentation than community
> >
> > Yeah, you are right.
> >
> > Piero
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> mobile: +49 (0) 176 6152 9741
> phone: +49 (0) 341 2289 188
> e-mail: alexanderkiel@gmx.net
> web: www.alexanderkiel.net
>
>
Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by Alexander Kiel <al...@gmx.net>.
Hi,
maybe I can contribute something to this discussion, as I started using
Tapestry just one week ago.
As you said already, the documentation (aside from the one on
tapestry.apache.org itself) is somehow wildly scattered around. The wiki
is, like most wikis, not well structured. There is plenty of just
obsolete (for T5) stuff. New users like me really scratch there head
about T4 vs. T5, because they are so different.
It would help to separate the T4 content from the current T5 site so
that new users see only T5.
After some days trying Tapestry and finding it just great, I simply
bought the new book from Igor Drobiazko - Tapestry 5: Die Entwicklung
von Webanwendungen mit Leichtigkeit. Its great. Its very up to date,
good structured and covers the most aspects of Tapestry. Sadly its only
available in German. Not a problem for me as native speaker but no help
for others.
Regards
Alex
On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:12 +0100, Piero Sartini wrote:
> > There is one in Nabble (new version at
> > http://n2.nabble.com/Tapestry-Users-f832.html, old one at
> > http://old.nabble.com/Tapestry-f302.html), OSDir, MarkMail, etc.
>
> Yep - now the question is how to nicely integrate them into
> http://tapestry.apache.org
> From a user's perspective, SSO would be great as well (wiki, forum, comments)
>
> > This is more about site and documentation than community
>
> Yeah, you are right.
>
> Piero
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
mobile: +49 (0) 176 6152 9741
phone: +49 (0) 341 2289 188
e-mail: alexanderkiel@gmx.net
web: www.alexanderkiel.net
Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:12:57 -0300, Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>
wrote:
> Yep - now the question is how to nicely integrate them into
> http://tapestry.apache.org
Agreed. :)
> From a user's perspective, SSO would be great as well (wiki, forum,
> comments)
Single Sign On? As far as I know, Apache's sites (besides wiki) only serve
static pages.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da
Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>.
> There is one in Nabble (new version at
> http://n2.nabble.com/Tapestry-Users-f832.html, old one at
> http://old.nabble.com/Tapestry-f302.html), OSDir, MarkMail, etc.
Yep - now the question is how to nicely integrate them into
http://tapestry.apache.org
>From a user's perspective, SSO would be great as well (wiki, forum, comments)
> This is more about site and documentation than community
Yeah, you are right.
Piero
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:56:39 -0300, Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>
wrote:
> You are propably right - but it does not 'feel' / look that healthy.
> Maybe the problem again is visibility.
> We have the mailing lists - point taken. But they are very well hidded
> behind a subscription. What would be great is a nice looking forum
> that mirrors the mailing lists.
There is one in Nabble (new version at
http://n2.nabble.com/Tapestry-Users-f832.html, old one at
http://old.nabble.com/Tapestry-f302.html), OSDir, MarkMail, etc.
> The thing is if people look at http://tapestry.apache.org the first
> time, they don't see anything about our community. They may find their
> way to the wiki if they are lucky - but then they are faced with a lot
> of Tapestry 4 stuff and MoinMoin. It's hard to find your way around.
This is more about site and documentation than community, and most people
here already agreed that these points to be improved.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da
Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>.
> I think Tapestry has a very healthy community around it. I guess you're
> talking about the size of it. The mailing list has many messages per day,
> people contribute packages, etc.
You are propably right - but it does not 'feel' / look that healthy.
Maybe the problem again is visibility.
We have the mailing lists - point taken. But they are very well hidded
behind a subscription. What would be great is a nice looking forum
that mirrors the mailing lists.
The thing is if people look at http://tapestry.apache.org the first
time, they don't see anything about our community. They may find their
way to the wiki if they are lucky - but then they are faced with a lot
of Tapestry 4 stuff and MoinMoin. It's hard to find your way around.
>From an outside point of view it just does not look like a healthy
community. Documentation is another topic.. whats there is not bad,
but it would be much better to have it in Confluence or some other
system. This way the community could contribute to and discuss the
articles...
Piero
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:26:24 -0300, Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>
wrote:
> We are getting there - with contributions from the community. But we
> need to make them more visible and communicate that it is totally OK
> to use them, even if it is not part of the tapestry core. Maybe we
> even need to think about making them part of Tapestry in some way
> (official extension library or whatever).
+1 to incorporating the integrations in the Tapestry project itself. We
just need to make sure the code conforms to Tapestry coding practices
(easy part) and have it thoroughly covered by tests. Or, at least, we can
link them from the website and strongly recommend them.
> Totally agreed! We need a web designer. And more important: we need to
> start building a community. My impression is tapestry was never good
> in building a community around it.
I think Tapestry has a very healthy community around it. I guess you're
talking about the size of it. The mailing list has many messages per day,
people contribute packages, etc.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da
Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by Piero Sartini <li...@pierosartini.de>.
> I've just spent whole January, four hours a week, teaching Tapestry in a
> large company with lots of people working in large projects, including one
> that will be used nationwide in Brazil. The standard argument doesn't
> convince me: JSF is a mess and it is a standard. It suffers from the
> every-stakeholder-must-be-pleased disease you mentioned above, and most of
> the stakeholders were tool makers, not application makers. Spring is not a
> standard, but has lots of users, including large businesses. Hibernate and
> Hibernate Validator weren't standards, but were so widely praised and used
> that helped shape JSRs.
I agree. But want to add that it is important to integrate with
standard technologies. After all tapestry needs to be able to make use
of them and integrate where neccessary.
If someone develops a Java webapp, he does not want to re-invent
everything just because of a superior component framework. There is
other stuff like persistence, transactions, remote services and so
much more that needs to be available out of the box. Without
integrating them yourself. And yes, I've brought this up one or two
times already ;)
We are getting there - with contributions from the community. But we
need to make them more visible and communicate that it is totally OK
to use them, even if it is not part of the tapestry core. Maybe we
even need to think about making them part of Tapestry in some way
(official extension library or whatever).
> Regarding the "cool" part, something that really stands out about some other
> frameworks like Vaadin (http://vaadin.com/home) and Play
> (http://www.playframework.org/) are their websites' design. They're really
> beautiful, they have a step-by-step tutorial linked in the first page, they
> have very organised documentation. All that give them a nice impression
> outright. Sometimes I think Tapestry needs a web designer more than anything
> else. :) Then I remember how bad I am at design. www.arsmachina.com.br for
> an example of that.
Totally agreed! We need a web designer. And more important: we need to
start building a community. My impression is tapestry was never good
in building a community around it.
Piero
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by Raul Raja Martinez <ra...@gmail.com>.
2010/2/23 Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <th...@gmail.com>:
> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:58:46 -0300, Raul Raja Martinez <ra...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Having the small user base is actually a good think.
>> Frameworks with bigger communities tend to become monsters and
>> implement features that are not necessary.
>> Developing in such frameworks is usually not fun and new features take
>> a long time to show up because every stakeholder has to be pleased.
>> Not to mention when the stakeholders are companies....
>
> I guess this is more of a governance problem. Even small projects with few
> people using can fall in this trap. A project has to have a vision and
> follow it.
>
>> I would never choose Tapestry when it comes to develop something for a
>> very big company where many devs are part of it and other people are
>> going to take over after dev is over. The main reason is that is not a
>> standard and many people don't know what's about or how to use it.
>
> I've just spent whole January, four hours a week, teaching Tapestry in a
> large company with lots of people working in large projects, including one
> that will be used nationwide in Brazil. The standard argument doesn't
> convince me: JSF is a mess and it is a standard. It suffers from the
> every-stakeholder-must-be-pleased disease you mentioned above, and most of
> the stakeholders were tool makers, not application makers. Spring is not a
> standard, but has lots of users, including large businesses. Hibernate and
> Hibernate Validator weren't standards, but were so widely praised and used
> that helped shape JSRs.
I agree completely with you, it's just that I have been contacted
always to do straight jsp/servlets struts or jsf in big companies
here in the US whenever I'm in need of a job. The case where an
Architect or Dev lead chooses to use Tapestry and all the team is
introduced to it, it is rare. Most companies and places expect devs to
have experience with a framework before they're hired. In many cases
the decision of what to use is not even made by devs.
>
>> I don't believe tapestry has any learning curve at all, it is just not
>> a standard and its natural that devs that are used to go by the book
>> find a big learning curve.
>
> I think it's a matter of doing things differently (people take a lot of time
> to change their habits) and writing better documentation.
>
>> +1 in keeping it nice and cool.
>
> Regarding the "cool" part, something that really stands out about some other
> frameworks like Vaadin (http://vaadin.com/home) and Play
> (http://www.playframework.org/) are their websites' design. They're really
> beautiful, they have a step-by-step tutorial linked in the first page, they
> have very organised documentation. All that give them a nice impression
> outright. Sometimes I think Tapestry needs a web designer more than anything
> else. :) Then I remember how bad I am at design. www.arsmachina.com.br for
> an example of that.
Agreed, no creative sense here either but one of the designer in our
team already commented on how the out of the box look of the ajax
validators and the site itself needs a real designer.
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and
> instructor
> Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da
> Informação Ltda.
> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Raul Raja
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:58:46 -0300, Raul Raja Martinez
<ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Having the small user base is actually a good think.
> Frameworks with bigger communities tend to become monsters and
> implement features that are not necessary.
> Developing in such frameworks is usually not fun and new features take
> a long time to show up because every stakeholder has to be pleased.
> Not to mention when the stakeholders are companies....
I guess this is more of a governance problem. Even small projects with few
people using can fall in this trap. A project has to have a vision and
follow it.
> I would never choose Tapestry when it comes to develop something for a
> very big company where many devs are part of it and other people are
> going to take over after dev is over. The main reason is that is not a
> standard and many people don't know what's about or how to use it.
I've just spent whole January, four hours a week, teaching Tapestry in a
large company with lots of people working in large projects, including one
that will be used nationwide in Brazil. The standard argument doesn't
convince me: JSF is a mess and it is a standard. It suffers from the
every-stakeholder-must-be-pleased disease you mentioned above, and most of
the stakeholders were tool makers, not application makers. Spring is not a
standard, but has lots of users, including large businesses. Hibernate and
Hibernate Validator weren't standards, but were so widely praised and used
that helped shape JSRs.
> I don't believe tapestry has any learning curve at all, it is just not
> a standard and its natural that devs that are used to go by the book
> find a big learning curve.
I think it's a matter of doing things differently (people take a lot of
time to change their habits) and writing better documentation.
> +1 in keeping it nice and cool.
Regarding the "cool" part, something that really stands out about some
other frameworks like Vaadin (http://vaadin.com/home) and Play
(http://www.playframework.org/) are their websites' design. They're really
beautiful, they have a step-by-step tutorial linked in the first page,
they have very organised documentation. All that give them a nice
impression outright. Sometimes I think Tapestry needs a web designer more
than anything else. :) Then I remember how bad I am at design.
www.arsmachina.com.br for an example of that.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da
Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by Raul Raja Martinez <ra...@gmail.com>.
The way I see Tapestry and my opinion about wider adoption...
Awesome and cool framework for building webapps with a not very large user base.
Having the small user base is actually a good think.
Frameworks with bigger communities tend to become monsters and
implement features that are not necessary.
Developing in such frameworks is usually not fun and new features take
a long time to show up because every stakeholder has to be pleased.
Not to mention when the stakeholders are companies....
I would never choose Tapestry when it comes to develop something for a
very big company where many devs are part of it and other people are
going to take over after dev is over. The main reason is that is not a
standard and many people don't know what's about or how to use it.
I don't believe tapestry has any learning curve at all, it is just not
a standard and its natural that devs that are used to go by the book
find a big learning curve.
+1 in keeping it nice and cool.
2010/2/23 Markus Joschko <ma...@gmail.com>:
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:21:15 -0300, Markus Joschko
>> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Don't get me wrong on this. It's certainly possible to live by consulting
>>> and
>>> implementation jobs as you provide solutions for business needs but I
>>> think that's not comparable
>>> with getting funded for creating a technical framework.
>>> For that you need a relatively large group of dedicated technical
>>> supporters.
>>
>> Why the need for a large group of supporters? What do you mean by "dedicated
>> technical supporters"? Just curious. :)
>
> I am not sure what Howard earns a year. But I guess if you divide that
> amount by
> 100$ (the amount clojure asks for per developer) you come up with a
> rather large number.
> And how many dedicated tapestry shops are out there that will contribute more?
>
> Maybe technical supporters was the wrong term. Say developers. I just
> wanted to make the point
> that a technical framework is probably rarely supported from the
> busines side but rather by enthusiastic developers.
>
>
>
>>
>> --
>> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
>> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and
>> instructor
>> Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da
>> Informação Ltda.
>> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
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>
>
--
Raul Raja
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by Markus Joschko <ma...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
<th...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:21:15 -0300, Markus Joschko
> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Don't get me wrong on this. It's certainly possible to live by consulting
>> and
>> implementation jobs as you provide solutions for business needs but I
>> think that's not comparable
>> with getting funded for creating a technical framework.
>> For that you need a relatively large group of dedicated technical
>> supporters.
>
> Why the need for a large group of supporters? What do you mean by "dedicated
> technical supporters"? Just curious. :)
I am not sure what Howard earns a year. But I guess if you divide that
amount by
100$ (the amount clojure asks for per developer) you come up with a
rather large number.
And how many dedicated tapestry shops are out there that will contribute more?
Maybe technical supporters was the wrong term. Say developers. I just
wanted to make the point
that a technical framework is probably rarely supported from the
busines side but rather by enthusiastic developers.
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and
> instructor
> Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da
> Informação Ltda.
> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:21:15 -0300, Markus Joschko
<ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don't get me wrong on this. It's certainly possible to live by
> consulting and
> implementation jobs as you provide solutions for business needs but I
> think that's not comparable
> with getting funded for creating a technical framework.
> For that you need a relatively large group of dedicated technical
> supporters.
Why the need for a large group of supporters? What do you mean by
"dedicated technical supporters"? Just curious. :)
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da
Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by Markus Joschko <ma...@gmail.com>.
> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't think that this model will work for tapestry. Clojure is kind
>> of a "deal breaker". It's unique in what it does. Tapestry is "just"
>> one of many web frameworks and I guess you wont reach the critical
>> mass of contributors to make a living out of it.
>
> Huh? I'm making a living on it NOW. I've been earning my living with
> Tapestry since 2003.
>
Don't get me wrong on this. It's certainly possible to live by consulting and
implementation jobs as you provide solutions for business needs but I
think that's not comparable
with getting funded for creating a technical framework.
For that you need a relatively large group of dedicated technical
supporters. And because of the fractured
webframework space I don't think the funding model works for web
frameworks in general.
But feel free to try.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Markus
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 9:56 AM, ARD Marx Tobias
>> <To...@daserste.de> wrote:
>>> You need the marketing of RubyOnRails for Tapestry - combined with a good IDE
>>> and "plugins" for common use-cases (e.g. authentication)...then more people might
>>> use Tapestry and the number of user-contribution rises.
>>>
>>> The best webframework is not very useful without a big community behind it.
>>> Or: Even bad frameworks become useful if there is a big community behind it
>>> as most frameworks and software live of user-contributed code.
>>>
>>> http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/cakephp.org
>>> http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/rubyonrails.org
>>>
>>> http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/joomla.org
>>> http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/drupal.org
>>>
>>> Also, from a business point of view, the bigger the market, the more attractive
>>> as specific framework...so there is many factors why "marketing" a framework
>>> should not be underestimated.
>>>
>>> Just my 2 cents...
>>>
>>> Tobias
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: Howard [mailto:hlship@gmail.com]
>>> Gesendet: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:15 PM
>>> An: users@tapestry.apache.org
>>> Betreff: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
>>>
>>> Or should that be "Late February of Progress". I have to say I'm a bit
>>> envious right now of Rich Hickey ... I can see that he's continuing on
>>> like a steam roller, extending and improving Clojure. I guess he's
>>> having some success in generating Research and Design budget from
>>> funding companies. I can see, following his threads, that he's working
>>> on yet more concurrency metaphors for Clojure, which is a good thing
>>> (though eventually there'll need to be a big book just to describe them
>>> all).
>>> I'm on a different track, in that I fund Tapestry out of pocket while
>>> doing training and project work. In some cases, those merge, such as
>>> when I add specific features to Tapestry for a specific client.
>>> I'm of two minds here: doing project work keeps me grounded in real
>>> requirements for Tapestry. I see what works really well, and what needs
>>> some polishing. On the other hand, I come up with ideas for new
>>> components, improvements, and integrations all the time and barely have
>>> enough free time (between clients, ordinary Tapestry maintenance, and
>>> this special project) to even document my ideas, never mind implement,
>>> test and distribute them.
>>> So, should I set up a funding option like Rich's? Well, that wouldn't
>>> help my current clients (I'm committed to getting their apps into
>>> production), but it may change how I would look for future work.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 2/22/2010 10:15:00 AM
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
>
> Creator of Apache Tapestry
>
> The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
> learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
>
> (971) 678-5210
> http://howardlewisship.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 1:23 AM, Markus Joschko
<ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think that this model will work for tapestry. Clojure is kind
> of a "deal breaker". It's unique in what it does. Tapestry is "just"
> one of many web frameworks and I guess you wont reach the critical
> mass of contributors to make a living out of it.
Huh? I'm making a living on it NOW. I've been earning my living with
Tapestry since 2003.
>
> Regards,
> Markus
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 9:56 AM, ARD Marx Tobias
> <To...@daserste.de> wrote:
>> You need the marketing of RubyOnRails for Tapestry - combined with a good IDE
>> and "plugins" for common use-cases (e.g. authentication)...then more people might
>> use Tapestry and the number of user-contribution rises.
>>
>> The best webframework is not very useful without a big community behind it.
>> Or: Even bad frameworks become useful if there is a big community behind it
>> as most frameworks and software live of user-contributed code.
>>
>> http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/cakephp.org
>> http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/rubyonrails.org
>>
>> http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/joomla.org
>> http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/drupal.org
>>
>> Also, from a business point of view, the bigger the market, the more attractive
>> as specific framework...so there is many factors why "marketing" a framework
>> should not be underestimated.
>>
>> Just my 2 cents...
>>
>> Tobias
>>
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Howard [mailto:hlship@gmail.com]
>> Gesendet: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:15 PM
>> An: users@tapestry.apache.org
>> Betreff: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
>>
>> Or should that be "Late February of Progress". I have to say I'm a bit
>> envious right now of Rich Hickey ... I can see that he's continuing on
>> like a steam roller, extending and improving Clojure. I guess he's
>> having some success in generating Research and Design budget from
>> funding companies. I can see, following his threads, that he's working
>> on yet more concurrency metaphors for Clojure, which is a good thing
>> (though eventually there'll need to be a big book just to describe them
>> all).
>> I'm on a different track, in that I fund Tapestry out of pocket while
>> doing training and project work. In some cases, those merge, such as
>> when I add specific features to Tapestry for a specific client.
>> I'm of two minds here: doing project work keeps me grounded in real
>> requirements for Tapestry. I see what works really well, and what needs
>> some polishing. On the other hand, I come up with ideas for new
>> components, improvements, and integrations all the time and barely have
>> enough free time (between clients, ordinary Tapestry maintenance, and
>> this special project) to even document my ideas, never mind implement,
>> test and distribute them.
>> So, should I set up a funding option like Rich's? Well, that wouldn't
>> help my current clients (I'm committed to getting their apps into
>> production), but it may change how I would look for future work.
>>
>> --
>> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 2/22/2010 10:15:00 AM
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator of Apache Tapestry
The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
(971) 678-5210
http://howardlewisship.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by Markus Joschko <ma...@gmail.com>.
I don't think that this model will work for tapestry. Clojure is kind
of a "deal breaker". It's unique in what it does. Tapestry is "just"
one of many web frameworks and I guess you wont reach the critical
mass of contributors to make a living out of it.
Regards,
Markus
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 9:56 AM, ARD Marx Tobias
<To...@daserste.de> wrote:
> You need the marketing of RubyOnRails for Tapestry - combined with a good IDE
> and "plugins" for common use-cases (e.g. authentication)...then more people might
> use Tapestry and the number of user-contribution rises.
>
> The best webframework is not very useful without a big community behind it.
> Or: Even bad frameworks become useful if there is a big community behind it
> as most frameworks and software live of user-contributed code.
>
> http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/cakephp.org
> http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/rubyonrails.org
>
> http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/joomla.org
> http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/drupal.org
>
> Also, from a business point of view, the bigger the market, the more attractive
> as specific framework...so there is many factors why "marketing" a framework
> should not be underestimated.
>
> Just my 2 cents...
>
> Tobias
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Howard [mailto:hlship@gmail.com]
> Gesendet: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:15 PM
> An: users@tapestry.apache.org
> Betreff: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
>
> Or should that be "Late February of Progress". I have to say I'm a bit
> envious right now of Rich Hickey ... I can see that he's continuing on
> like a steam roller, extending and improving Clojure. I guess he's
> having some success in generating Research and Design budget from
> funding companies. I can see, following his threads, that he's working
> on yet more concurrency metaphors for Clojure, which is a good thing
> (though eventually there'll need to be a big book just to describe them
> all).
> I'm on a different track, in that I fund Tapestry out of pocket while
> doing training and project work. In some cases, those merge, such as
> when I add specific features to Tapestry for a specific client.
> I'm of two minds here: doing project work keeps me grounded in real
> requirements for Tapestry. I see what works really well, and what needs
> some polishing. On the other hand, I come up with ideas for new
> components, improvements, and integrations all the time and barely have
> enough free time (between clients, ordinary Tapestry maintenance, and
> this special project) to even document my ideas, never mind implement,
> test and distribute them.
> So, should I set up a funding option like Rich's? Well, that wouldn't
> help my current clients (I'm committed to getting their apps into
> production), but it may change how I would look for future work.
>
> --
> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 2/22/2010 10:15:00 AM
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
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AW: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Posted by ARD Marx Tobias <To...@DasErste.de>.
You need the marketing of RubyOnRails for Tapestry - combined with a good IDE
and "plugins" for common use-cases (e.g. authentication)...then more people might
use Tapestry and the number of user-contribution rises.
The best webframework is not very useful without a big community behind it.
Or: Even bad frameworks become useful if there is a big community behind it
as most frameworks and software live of user-contributed code.
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/cakephp.org
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/rubyonrails.org
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/joomla.org
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/drupal.org
Also, from a business point of view, the bigger the market, the more attractive
as specific framework...so there is many factors why "marketing" a framework
should not be underestimated.
Just my 2 cents...
Tobias
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Howard [mailto:hlship@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:15 PM
An: users@tapestry.apache.org
Betreff: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
Or should that be "Late February of Progress". I have to say I'm a bit
envious right now of Rich Hickey ... I can see that he's continuing on
like a steam roller, extending and improving Clojure. I guess he's
having some success in generating Research and Design budget from
funding companies. I can see, following his threads, that he's working
on yet more concurrency metaphors for Clojure, which is a good thing
(though eventually there'll need to be a big book just to describe them
all).
I'm on a different track, in that I fund Tapestry out of pocket while
doing training and project work. In some cases, those merge, such as
when I add specific features to Tapestry for a specific client.
I'm of two minds here: doing project work keeps me grounded in real
requirements for Tapestry. I see what works really well, and what needs
some polishing. On the other hand, I come up with ideas for new
components, improvements, and integrations all the time and barely have
enough free time (between clients, ordinary Tapestry maintenance, and
this special project) to even document my ideas, never mind implement,
test and distribute them.
So, should I set up a funding option like Rich's? Well, that wouldn't
help my current clients (I'm committed to getting their apps into
production), but it may change how I would look for future work.
--
Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 2/22/2010 10:15:00 AM
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