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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org> on 2010/12/12 17:21:27 UTC
JIRA @ Codehaus
Why is the JIRA for Maven hosted @ Codehaus instead of here
at the ASF? And, from what I can tell, there is no checkbox
or anything else within the JIRA submission process that
makes it clear that any code/patch attached is licensed to
the ASF, so how is that tracked?
Also, I'd like to see the normal, standard disclaimer[1] on
the footers, ala tomcat.apache.org.
tia
PS: Oh, and irc is hosted by Codehaus too...
PPS: But at least you host the mailing lists and SVN repo here...
so that's *something* at least.
PPPS: As the Email address may indicate, this email is with my
ASF hat on, and under my role of President.
1. Apache Maven, Maven, Apache, the Apache feather, and the Apache Maven project logo are trademarks of the Apache Software Foundation.
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Re: JIRA @ Codehaus
Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
On Dec 16, 2010, at 7:44 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
> On Dec 16, 2010, at 9:55 AM, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>
>> "We, Sonatype, are looking at setting up a third mirror but it doesn't seem tonecessary at this point in time."
>>
>> While this is technically correct it creates a perception problem as the Maven PMC has overall responsibility for Maven Central, although it has delegated the actual management to Sonatype.
>
> Really? Has the PMC actually, officially done so? Was there
> a vote? Was there discussion?
You raise a good point. No, to the best of my recollection the PMC never voted to turn it over to Sonatype. I haven't looked at the archives but to the best of my memory I do recall discussions where we discussed whether to continue to have Jason work with Contegix to manage the repository vs having Infra take it over. I believe that discussion ending with Jason deciding he didn't want to turn it over, probably because he wants to keep Contegix managing it. I'm quite sure that the PMC is aware that the only people doing work on managing the repository work for Sonatype. Personally, I have always been aware that Jason has graciously offered to pay for maintaining the repository.
In retrospect the PMC should have required more formal reporting since it is our collective responsibility to insure that it is effectively being managed. Having said that, I have no reason to believe that it has not been.
Ralph
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Re: JIRA @ Codehaus
Posted by Brian Fox <br...@infinity.nu>.
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> How so? It is a trademark issue, since Maven is a
> mark and is somewhat similar to the whole maven.org
> usage issue of long ago; should we need to protect
> and enforce the mark, then it becomes a legal issue;
> since it was "delegated" then certainly infra needs
> to know why and how; and it all involves the Maven
> PMC so they are aware of all these things.
>
> No action required at present, but certainly an issue
> which affects all 4 lists, imo.
Your personal opinion, or recantation of some other board members
opinion about a specific member of a PMC doesn't belong on a public
list. You can talk about trademarks all you want, I have no issue with
that.
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Re: JIRA @ Codehaus
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
How so? It is a trademark issue, since Maven is a
mark and is somewhat similar to the whole maven.org
usage issue of long ago; should we need to protect
and enforce the mark, then it becomes a legal issue;
since it was "delegated" then certainly infra needs
to know why and how; and it all involves the Maven
PMC so they are aware of all these things.
No action required at present, but certainly an issue
which affects all 4 lists, imo.
On Dec 16, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Brian Fox wrote:
> I think this topic is now inappropriate for the majority of these
> lists. We're waiting for an email from Shane as discussed yesterday
> and then lets take it from there.
>
> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Dec 16, 2010, at 9:55 AM, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>>
>>> "We, Sonatype, are looking at setting up a third mirror but it doesn't seem tonecessary at this point in time."
>>>
>>> While this is technically correct it creates a perception problem as the Maven PMC has overall responsibility for Maven Central, although it has delegated the actual management to Sonatype.
>>
>> Really? Has the PMC actually, officially done so? Was there
>> a vote? Was there discussion?
>>
>> I am sure that Shane will discuss this w/ the PMC soon,
>> but I will paraphrase a discussion at the board meeting
>> in which the board has significant concern over the
>> PMC's "protection" of the mark, mostly because JVZ has
>> a tendency to "push" his own agenda within the PMC and
>> the PMC is either unwilling, unable or unaware of what
>> is going on.
>
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Re: JIRA @ Codehaus
Posted by Brian Fox <br...@infinity.nu>.
I think this topic is now inappropriate for the majority of these
lists. We're waiting for an email from Shane as discussed yesterday
and then lets take it from there.
On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
> On Dec 16, 2010, at 9:55 AM, Ralph Goers wrote:
>>
>> "We, Sonatype, are looking at setting up a third mirror but it doesn't seem tonecessary at this point in time."
>>
>> While this is technically correct it creates a perception problem as the Maven PMC has overall responsibility for Maven Central, although it has delegated the actual management to Sonatype.
>
> Really? Has the PMC actually, officially done so? Was there
> a vote? Was there discussion?
>
> I am sure that Shane will discuss this w/ the PMC soon,
> but I will paraphrase a discussion at the board meeting
> in which the board has significant concern over the
> PMC's "protection" of the mark, mostly because JVZ has
> a tendency to "push" his own agenda within the PMC and
> the PMC is either unwilling, unable or unaware of what
> is going on.
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Re: JIRA @ Codehaus
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Dec 16, 2010, at 9:55 AM, Ralph Goers wrote:
>
> "We, Sonatype, are looking at setting up a third mirror but it doesn't seem tonecessary at this point in time."
>
> While this is technically correct it creates a perception problem as the Maven PMC has overall responsibility for Maven Central, although it has delegated the actual management to Sonatype.
Really? Has the PMC actually, officially done so? Was there
a vote? Was there discussion?
I am sure that Shane will discuss this w/ the PMC soon,
but I will paraphrase a discussion at the board meeting
in which the board has significant concern over the
PMC's "protection" of the mark, mostly because JVZ has
a tendency to "push" his own agenda within the PMC and
the PMC is either unwilling, unable or unaware of what
is going on.
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Re: JIRA @ Codehaus
Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
On Dec 16, 2010, at 4:34 AM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> Why is the JIRA for Maven hosted @ Codehaus instead of here
>>> at the ASF?
>
>> While you can migrate projects now, it's a new feature and not an easy
>> one. Migrating Maven in would a) be complicated due to its size and
>> involve work on Codehaus and their outsourced hosting's part, adding
>> more complexiy, and b) would separate the Maven community into 'at
>> Apache' and 'not at Apache'.
>>
>> On the ASF JIRA side; discussing the migration of the many Maven JIRA
>> projects was put as a 'once we've merged all our JIRAs' topic.
>> Probably something to discuss in Vancouver.
>
> When Maven 3 came out, some people of the german press wrote:
> "Sonatype team has released maven 3" not "the Apache Maven team". I
> think having infrastructure on several places leads to such
> confusions.
I disagree. I think that is more because of the phrasing that certain people use when they make statements about what is being done. I saw an example of this on the Maven dev list just yesterday.
"We, Sonatype, are looking at setting up a third mirror but it doesn't seem tonecessary at this point in time."
While this is technically correct it creates a perception problem as the Maven PMC has overall responsibility for Maven Central, although it has delegated the actual management to Sonatype.
Ralph
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Re: JIRA @ Codehaus
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Why is the JIRA for Maven hosted @ Codehaus instead of here
>> at the ASF?
> While you can migrate projects now, it's a new feature and not an easy
> one. Migrating Maven in would a) be complicated due to its size and
> involve work on Codehaus and their outsourced hosting's part, adding
> more complexiy, and b) would separate the Maven community into 'at
> Apache' and 'not at Apache'.
>
> On the ASF JIRA side; discussing the migration of the many Maven JIRA
> projects was put as a 'once we've merged all our JIRAs' topic.
> Probably something to discuss in Vancouver.
When Maven 3 came out, some people of the german press wrote:
"Sonatype team has released maven 3" not "the Apache Maven team". I
think having infrastructure on several places leads to such
confusions.
http://entwickler.de/zonen/portale/psecom,id,99,news,56980,p,0.html
http://it-republik.de/jaxenter/artikel/Maven-3-ist-die-Zukunft---Jason-van-Zyl-im-Gespraech-3041.html?print=1
http://entwickler.com/itr/news/psecom,id,55176,nodeid,82.html
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Re: JIRA @ Codehaus
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org>.
Answering inline as I've some history on this subject.
On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
> Why is the JIRA for Maven hosted @ Codehaus instead of here
> at the ASF?
Legacy. I can't remember if Maven's JIRA was going before the ASF
JIRA, but it's been that way for years. Many of the Maven 2 related
projects (plugins, core system) are at Codehaus.
While you can migrate projects now, it's a new feature and not an easy
one. Migrating Maven in would a) be complicated due to its size and
involve work on Codehaus and their outsourced hosting's part, adding
more complexiy, and b) would separate the Maven community into 'at
Apache' and 'not at Apache'.
On the ASF JIRA side; discussing the migration of the many Maven JIRA
projects was put as a 'once we've merged all our JIRAs' topic.
Probably something to discuss in Vancouver.
> And, from what I can tell, there is no checkbox
> or anything else within the JIRA submission process that
> makes it clear that any code/patch attached is licensed to
> the ASF, so how is that tracked?
Bugzilla also lacks the checkbox. Section 5 of the Apache license
makes it clear that code/patches are licensed appropriately and we
have never mandated that there must be a checkbox.
I'll leave the PMC to discuss when they request a software grant for a patch.
> Also, I'd like to see the normal, standard disclaimer[1] on
> the footers, ala tomcat.apache.org.
I assume you mean you'd like the footers on maven.apache.org?
> PS: Oh, and irc is hosted by Codehaus too...
Apache doesn't offer irc hosting, and much of the Maven/Apache-Java
community were already logged onto Codehaus IRC.
> PPS: But at least you host the mailing lists and SVN repo here...
> so that's *something* at least.
The foundation mandates that, either officially or through strong
implication [thus our frowning on forums]. ;)
> PPPS: As the Email address may indicate, this email is with my
> ASF hat on, and under my role of President.
Role(Hen) = Lurker
> 1. Apache Maven, Maven, Apache, the Apache feather, and the Apache Maven project logo are trademarks of the Apache Software Foundation.
[I wonder if Apache Software Foundation should be a trademark of the
Apache Software Foundation? :) ]
On the trademark subject; this site is interesting (and amusing for
its incorrect use of the copyright symbol):
http://www.emailmaven.com/
Also:
http://www.consilweb.com/cms/
http://www.mavensoftwarelabs.com/
http://www.optimusfutures.com/TradeMaven.html
http://download.cnet.com/File-Maven-Pro/3000-2250_4-38548.html
http://www.digital-digest.com/dvd/downloads/showsoftware_movie_maven_437.html
Hen
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Re: JIRA @ Codehaus
Posted by Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>.
FWIW, Jira projects can now be moved without loosing history between
JIRA instances. It has recently been done for
ActiveMQ/Camel/ServiceMix without any problems. So infra now has the
experience do actually do that ...
On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 17:21, Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
> Why is the JIRA for Maven hosted @ Codehaus instead of here
> at the ASF? And, from what I can tell, there is no checkbox
> or anything else within the JIRA submission process that
> makes it clear that any code/patch attached is licensed to
> the ASF, so how is that tracked?
>
> Also, I'd like to see the normal, standard disclaimer[1] on
> the footers, ala tomcat.apache.org.
>
> tia
>
> PS: Oh, and irc is hosted by Codehaus too...
>
> PPS: But at least you host the mailing lists and SVN repo here...
> so that's *something* at least.
>
> PPPS: As the Email address may indicate, this email is with my
> ASF hat on, and under my role of President.
>
> 1. Apache Maven, Maven, Apache, the Apache feather, and the Apache Maven project logo are trademarks of the Apache Software Foundation.
--
Cheers,
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com
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