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Posted to dev@community.apache.org by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com> on 2015/02/14 03:40:52 UTC
Apache Way talks
Nick called my bluff on my review comment for his Apache Way talk proposal. I said we need to update these and so Nick asked for suggestions - damn him making me work for my comment ;-)
Here's what I was thinking when I wrote that comment...
For years we've rolled out the same "this is how apache works" session. We've talked about consensus building, PMCs, voting, board s and members. We've said our projects are independent. We've repeated the same governance content using the same slides we've been using for years. I pointed out in my comment that Nick hasn't even bothered to update the stats in his abstract (the lack of refreshed content is true of my own Apache Way slides, I'm not intending to pick on Nick).
There is value in these sessions, some people are completely new and we probably should still schedule them. However, I think we ought to do some new stuff along the lines of:
How is the ASF different from other foundations?
Why should I bring my project to Apache?
How can I get paid to work on Apache projects?
How do I build a business around apache software?
Why doesn't the ASF pay for software development?
Why, after 15 years, do people see the ASF as a desirable place to take software?
Why does the ASF have a reputation for bureaucracy amongst the younger GitHub crowd?
Just what rules are immutable in the ASF?
And much more...
Sent from my Windows Phone
Re: Apache Way talks
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 2:38 PM, jan i <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 14 February 2015 at 20:03, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>> Louis, for independent data see
>> http://openlife.cc/blogs/2010/november/how-grow-your-open-source-project-10x-and-revenues-5x
>>
>> This isn't about the ASF but about foundations in general.
>>
> +1
>
> I for one, have been confused about some of the discussions lately, that
> have rattled my fundamental beliefs in why I spent so many hours being ASF
>
> I strongly favor someone telling me (and a lot of others), what are the
> main differences between ASF and other equally good foundations.
>
> Sorry to say it loud, but sometimes I feel we (ASF) are trying to do what
> everybody want, instead of concentrating on what we are good at.
>
> I have a feeling that we are standing at a crossroad where many questions
> like Directd funding, ApacheCON, entry ticket to ASF (Incubator/pTLP) tear
> us apart, and I believe it is high time the members of ASF take a stand
> (whatever it may be), and show we are ONE united in the APACHE WAY.
We are a large, diverse, group. We mostly agree on some principles,
but we often disagree on the details and on the practical application
of the principles. We love to type.
I don't think that there is a crossroads at all. Some questions are in
perpetual cometary orbit, like channeling dev funding. They come
around every so often and go away again. Some areas are a perpetual
topic of controversy, because they are really hard problems and people
have very strong opinions, like the incubation process. Your premise
is that there's an 'us' that was once 'together' that is at some risk
of 'tearing apart'. I think it's more accurate to write that, as the
membership and project inventory has grown and grown, the diversity of
opinion has, inevitably, grown with it. It will never by a few guys
(gender cited on purpose) with a completely clear common purpose. It's
now a wonderfully complex collection of people (and for all we know,
dogs) with a diverse set of views. Since one of its core principles is
to debate and decide on mailing lists, it will be noisy. I'll believe
that there's any real fission when I see a members meeting in which a
group of members has actually banded together and forced parliamentary
action under the bylaws, or even elected a board member who champions
any non-incremental change.
>
> Just my feelings, sorry for disrupting in the higher politics.
> rgds
> jan i
>
>
>>
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> ________________________________
>> From: Louis Suárez-Potts<ma...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: 2/14/2015 9:48 AM
>> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
>>
>>
>> > On 14-02-2015, at 11:47, Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Sat, 14 Feb 2015, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote:
>> >> There is value in these sessions, some people are completely new and we
>> probably should still schedule them. However, I think we ought to do some
>> new stuff along the lines of:
>> >>
>> >> How is the ASF different from other foundations?
>> >> Why should I bring my project to Apache?
>> >> How can I get paid to work on Apache projects?
>> >> How do I build a business around apache software?
>> >> Why doesn't the ASF pay for software development?
>> >> Why, after 15 years, do people see the ASF as a desirable place to take
>> software?
>> >> Why does the ASF have a reputation for bureaucracy amongst the younger
>> GitHub crowd?
>> >> Just what rules are immutable in the ASF?
>> >
>> > Looks a great list to me!
>> >
>> > My only comment is that these look like the titles of all the sessions
>> from a Community Track[1], rather than the parts of an abstract for just
>> one talk. Is that what you had in mind? Or do you think we can really fit
>> all of that into a single session?
>> >
>> > Nick
>> >
>> > [1] Or even a whole conference! Say, called something like Transfer
>> > Summit? ;-)
>>
>> are there easily available data showing the benefits of plunking a project
>> in Apache? One could also use, I’d imagine, other measures of ecosystem
>> robustness. Basically, some measure or set thereof that illustrates the
>> comparative benefit of Apache—?
>>
>> Louis
>>
>>
Re: Apache Way talks
Posted by Joe Brockmeier <jz...@zonker.net>.
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015, at 10:21 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote:
> I agree Joe,
>
> We only have a very few immutable rules. Everything else is policy. As
> long as policy don't break those immutable rules the they can shift and
> change as much as they need to in order to empower individual project
> communities.
>
> Coincidentally I wrote a presentation on this very topic last night. I'll
> look to share it once it has been delivered, but too late for me to add
> to the CFP.
If this might be something for the community track, I think we can be
fungible on CfP deadline...
Best,
jzb
--
Joe Brockmeier
jzb@zonker.net
Twitter: @jzb
http://www.dissociatedpress.net/
RE: Apache Way talks
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
I didn't intend to say *all* rules are unnecessary. I said we have very few necessary rules.
I didn't intend to say policy *is* rule, I said it is interpreted as rule.
Ross
Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
-----Original Message-----
From: sebb [mailto:sebbaz@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 9:50 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
On 16 February 2015 at 16:51, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <Ro...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> I think that's exactly it. If we write policy down it becomes a rule.
Huh?
Written policy only becomes a rule if the document declares it as such
- or perhaps, fails to declare it as policy.
There seem to be a lot of unwritten rules and unwritten policy in the ASF.
I think this is why there are so many arguments about what is absolutely required and what is best practice.
Also that some rules are stated without providing the rationale.
> Rules work great when every environment is the same, but that's not the real world.
That suggests that rules are completely unnecessary.
I don't believe that is the case.
It ought to be possible to start from a strict requirement - for example, being able to establish provenance of code - and derive some fundamental rules from that.
If a rule is stated without any background, it just becomes something to argue over, and edge cases are more difficult to resolve.
Whereas if the rationale for a rule is documented, edge cases can be checked against the rationale.
> We do, as a group of individuals, have the tendency to assume the way things are done in project Foo is the entirety of The Apache Way. In fact what is done in Foo is a superset of the Apache Way, designed for that specific project.
>
> Consider Committer = PMC for example. The Apache Way only says that both groups should be merit based (I.e. no cabals or BD). It says nothing about what the merit levels are or whether they should be the same or different for each group. Yet, somehow, many people will express their experience as being an immutable part of the Apache Way.
>
> Individual experience should help inform other community members, but it shouldn't restrict them.
>
> Ross
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: jan i<ma...@apache.org>
> Sent: 2/16/2015 8:43 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
>
> s
>
> On 16 February 2015 at 17:21, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree Joe,
>>
>> We only have a very few immutable rules. Everything else is policy.
>> As long as policy don't break those immutable rules the they can
>> shift and change as much as they need to in order to empower
>> individual project communities.
>>
>> Coincidentally I wrote a presentation on this very topic last night.
>> I'll look to share it once it has been delivered, but too late for me
>> to add to the CFP.
>>
> I agree with you both.....only being a relative new member, it is
> often quite hard to see what is official policy and what is just the
> opinion of some members.
>
> The rules are clear, and in my opinion, protect our values.
>
> Maybe we are back in another old discussion, that some of our policies
> are not defined, but merely "we use to do".
>
> rgds
> jan I.
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> ________________________________
>> From: Joe Brockmeier<ma...@zonker.net>
>> Sent: 2/16/2015 8:01 AM
>> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015, at 01:38 PM, jan i wrote:
>> > I have a feeling that we are standing at a crossroad where many
>> > questions like Directd funding, ApacheCON, entry ticket to ASF
>> (Incubator/pTLP)
>> > tear us apart, and I believe it is high time the members of ASF
>> > take a
>> stand
>> > (whatever it may be), and show we are ONE united in the APACHE WAY.
>>
>> I'm not sure directed funding, handling ApacheCon, etc. are immutable
>> or define The Apache Way.
>>
>> We can allow (or not) directed funding and still practice community
>> over code, merit, openness, etc.
>>
>> The fact that a large and diverse membership do not agree on these
>> issues need not "tear us apart" if we can discuss and resolve issues
>> without animosity. If we agree that "community over code" is one of
>> the defining aspects of Apache, surely we can also agree that the
>> community is also more important than folks having their way over
>> whether or not Apache allows (or experiments with) directed funding
>> or other models of promoting/sustaining projects and their infrastructure.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> jzb
>> --
>> Joe Brockmeier
>> jzb@zonker.net
>> Twitter: @jzb
>> http://www.dissociatedpress.net/
>>
Re: Apache Way talks
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 16 February 2015 at 16:51, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
<Ro...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> I think that's exactly it. If we write policy down it becomes a rule.
Huh?
Written policy only becomes a rule if the document declares it as such
- or perhaps, fails to declare it as policy.
There seem to be a lot of unwritten rules and unwritten policy in the ASF.
I think this is why there are so many arguments about what is
absolutely required and what is best practice.
Also that some rules are stated without providing the rationale.
> Rules work great when every environment is the same, but that's not the real world.
That suggests that rules are completely unnecessary.
I don't believe that is the case.
It ought to be possible to start from a strict requirement - for
example, being able to establish provenance of code - and derive some
fundamental rules from that.
If a rule is stated without any background, it just becomes something
to argue over, and edge cases are more difficult to resolve.
Whereas if the rationale for a rule is documented, edge cases can be
checked against the rationale.
> We do, as a group of individuals, have the tendency to assume the way things are done in project Foo is the entirety of The Apache Way. In fact what is done in Foo is a superset of the Apache Way, designed for that specific project.
>
> Consider Committer = PMC for example. The Apache Way only says that both groups should be merit based (I.e. no cabals or BD). It says nothing about what the merit levels are or whether they should be the same or different for each group. Yet, somehow, many people will express their experience as being an immutable part of the Apache Way.
>
> Individual experience should help inform other community members, but it shouldn't restrict them.
>
> Ross
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: jan i<ma...@apache.org>
> Sent: 2/16/2015 8:43 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
>
> s
>
> On 16 February 2015 at 17:21, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree Joe,
>>
>> We only have a very few immutable rules. Everything else is policy. As
>> long as policy don't break those immutable rules the they can shift and
>> change as much as they need to in order to empower individual project
>> communities.
>>
>> Coincidentally I wrote a presentation on this very topic last night. I'll
>> look to share it once it has been delivered, but too late for me to add to
>> the CFP.
>>
> I agree with you both.....only being a relative new member, it is often
> quite hard to see what is official policy and what is just the opinion of
> some members.
>
> The rules are clear, and in my opinion, protect our values.
>
> Maybe we are back in another old discussion, that some of our policies are
> not defined, but merely "we use to do".
>
> rgds
> jan I.
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> ________________________________
>> From: Joe Brockmeier<ma...@zonker.net>
>> Sent: 2/16/2015 8:01 AM
>> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015, at 01:38 PM, jan i wrote:
>> > I have a feeling that we are standing at a crossroad where many
>> > questions like Directd funding, ApacheCON, entry ticket to ASF
>> (Incubator/pTLP)
>> > tear us apart, and I believe it is high time the members of ASF take a
>> stand
>> > (whatever it may be), and show we are ONE united in the APACHE WAY.
>>
>> I'm not sure directed funding, handling ApacheCon, etc. are immutable or
>> define The Apache Way.
>>
>> We can allow (or not) directed funding and still practice community over
>> code, merit, openness, etc.
>>
>> The fact that a large and diverse membership do not agree on these
>> issues need not "tear us apart" if we can discuss and resolve issues
>> without animosity. If we agree that "community over code" is one of the
>> defining aspects of Apache, surely we can also agree that the community
>> is also more important than folks having their way over whether or not
>> Apache allows (or experiments with) directed funding or other models of
>> promoting/sustaining projects and their infrastructure.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> jzb
>> --
>> Joe Brockmeier
>> jzb@zonker.net
>> Twitter: @jzb
>> http://www.dissociatedpress.net/
>>
RE: Apache Way talks
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
I think that's exactly it. If we write policy down it becomes a rule. Rules work great when every environment is the same, but that's not the real world.
We do, as a group of individuals, have the tendency to assume the way things are done in project Foo is the entirety of The Apache Way. In fact what is done in Foo is a superset of the Apache Way, designed for that specific project.
Consider Committer = PMC for example. The Apache Way only says that both groups should be merit based (I.e. no cabals or BD). It says nothing about what the merit levels are or whether they should be the same or different for each group. Yet, somehow, many people will express their experience as being an immutable part of the Apache Way.
Individual experience should help inform other community members, but it shouldn't restrict them.
Ross
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: jan i<ma...@apache.org>
Sent: 2/16/2015 8:43 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
s
On 16 February 2015 at 17:21, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> I agree Joe,
>
> We only have a very few immutable rules. Everything else is policy. As
> long as policy don't break those immutable rules the they can shift and
> change as much as they need to in order to empower individual project
> communities.
>
> Coincidentally I wrote a presentation on this very topic last night. I'll
> look to share it once it has been delivered, but too late for me to add to
> the CFP.
>
I agree with you both.....only being a relative new member, it is often
quite hard to see what is official policy and what is just the opinion of
some members.
The rules are clear, and in my opinion, protect our values.
Maybe we are back in another old discussion, that some of our policies are
not defined, but merely "we use to do".
rgds
jan I.
>
>
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Joe Brockmeier<ma...@zonker.net>
> Sent: 2/16/2015 8:01 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
>
> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015, at 01:38 PM, jan i wrote:
> > I have a feeling that we are standing at a crossroad where many
> > questions like Directd funding, ApacheCON, entry ticket to ASF
> (Incubator/pTLP)
> > tear us apart, and I believe it is high time the members of ASF take a
> stand
> > (whatever it may be), and show we are ONE united in the APACHE WAY.
>
> I'm not sure directed funding, handling ApacheCon, etc. are immutable or
> define The Apache Way.
>
> We can allow (or not) directed funding and still practice community over
> code, merit, openness, etc.
>
> The fact that a large and diverse membership do not agree on these
> issues need not "tear us apart" if we can discuss and resolve issues
> without animosity. If we agree that "community over code" is one of the
> defining aspects of Apache, surely we can also agree that the community
> is also more important than folks having their way over whether or not
> Apache allows (or experiments with) directed funding or other models of
> promoting/sustaining projects and their infrastructure.
>
> Best,
>
> jzb
> --
> Joe Brockmeier
> jzb@zonker.net
> Twitter: @jzb
> http://www.dissociatedpress.net/
>
Re: Apache Way talks
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
s
On 16 February 2015 at 17:21, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> I agree Joe,
>
> We only have a very few immutable rules. Everything else is policy. As
> long as policy don't break those immutable rules the they can shift and
> change as much as they need to in order to empower individual project
> communities.
>
> Coincidentally I wrote a presentation on this very topic last night. I'll
> look to share it once it has been delivered, but too late for me to add to
> the CFP.
>
I agree with you both.....only being a relative new member, it is often
quite hard to see what is official policy and what is just the opinion of
some members.
The rules are clear, and in my opinion, protect our values.
Maybe we are back in another old discussion, that some of our policies are
not defined, but merely "we use to do".
rgds
jan I.
>
>
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Joe Brockmeier<ma...@zonker.net>
> Sent: 2/16/2015 8:01 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
>
> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015, at 01:38 PM, jan i wrote:
> > I have a feeling that we are standing at a crossroad where many
> > questions like Directd funding, ApacheCON, entry ticket to ASF
> (Incubator/pTLP)
> > tear us apart, and I believe it is high time the members of ASF take a
> stand
> > (whatever it may be), and show we are ONE united in the APACHE WAY.
>
> I'm not sure directed funding, handling ApacheCon, etc. are immutable or
> define The Apache Way.
>
> We can allow (or not) directed funding and still practice community over
> code, merit, openness, etc.
>
> The fact that a large and diverse membership do not agree on these
> issues need not "tear us apart" if we can discuss and resolve issues
> without animosity. If we agree that "community over code" is one of the
> defining aspects of Apache, surely we can also agree that the community
> is also more important than folks having their way over whether or not
> Apache allows (or experiments with) directed funding or other models of
> promoting/sustaining projects and their infrastructure.
>
> Best,
>
> jzb
> --
> Joe Brockmeier
> jzb@zonker.net
> Twitter: @jzb
> http://www.dissociatedpress.net/
>
RE: Apache Way talks
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
I agree Joe,
We only have a very few immutable rules. Everything else is policy. As long as policy don't break those immutable rules the they can shift and change as much as they need to in order to empower individual project communities.
Coincidentally I wrote a presentation on this very topic last night. I'll look to share it once it has been delivered, but too late for me to add to the CFP.
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Joe Brockmeier<ma...@zonker.net>
Sent: 2/16/2015 8:01 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015, at 01:38 PM, jan i wrote:
> I have a feeling that we are standing at a crossroad where many
> questions like Directd funding, ApacheCON, entry ticket to ASF (Incubator/pTLP)
> tear us apart, and I believe it is high time the members of ASF take a stand
> (whatever it may be), and show we are ONE united in the APACHE WAY.
I'm not sure directed funding, handling ApacheCon, etc. are immutable or
define The Apache Way.
We can allow (or not) directed funding and still practice community over
code, merit, openness, etc.
The fact that a large and diverse membership do not agree on these
issues need not "tear us apart" if we can discuss and resolve issues
without animosity. If we agree that "community over code" is one of the
defining aspects of Apache, surely we can also agree that the community
is also more important than folks having their way over whether or not
Apache allows (or experiments with) directed funding or other models of
promoting/sustaining projects and their infrastructure.
Best,
jzb
--
Joe Brockmeier
jzb@zonker.net
Twitter: @jzb
http://www.dissociatedpress.net/
Re: Apache Way talks
Posted by Joe Brockmeier <jz...@zonker.net>.
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015, at 01:38 PM, jan i wrote:
> I have a feeling that we are standing at a crossroad where many
> questions like Directd funding, ApacheCON, entry ticket to ASF (Incubator/pTLP)
> tear us apart, and I believe it is high time the members of ASF take a stand
> (whatever it may be), and show we are ONE united in the APACHE WAY.
I'm not sure directed funding, handling ApacheCon, etc. are immutable or
define The Apache Way.
We can allow (or not) directed funding and still practice community over
code, merit, openness, etc.
The fact that a large and diverse membership do not agree on these
issues need not "tear us apart" if we can discuss and resolve issues
without animosity. If we agree that "community over code" is one of the
defining aspects of Apache, surely we can also agree that the community
is also more important than folks having their way over whether or not
Apache allows (or experiments with) directed funding or other models of
promoting/sustaining projects and their infrastructure.
Best,
jzb
--
Joe Brockmeier
jzb@zonker.net
Twitter: @jzb
http://www.dissociatedpress.net/
Re: Apache Way talks
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On 14 February 2015 at 20:03, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Louis, for independent data see
> http://openlife.cc/blogs/2010/november/how-grow-your-open-source-project-10x-and-revenues-5x
>
> This isn't about the ASF but about foundations in general.
>
+1
I for one, have been confused about some of the discussions lately, that
have rattled my fundamental beliefs in why I spent so many hours being ASF
I strongly favor someone telling me (and a lot of others), what are the
main differences between ASF and other equally good foundations.
Sorry to say it loud, but sometimes I feel we (ASF) are trying to do what
everybody want, instead of concentrating on what we are good at.
I have a feeling that we are standing at a crossroad where many questions
like Directd funding, ApacheCON, entry ticket to ASF (Incubator/pTLP) tear
us apart, and I believe it is high time the members of ASF take a stand
(whatever it may be), and show we are ONE united in the APACHE WAY.
Just my feelings, sorry for disrupting in the higher politics.
rgds
jan i
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Louis Suárez-Potts<ma...@gmail.com>
> Sent: 2/14/2015 9:48 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
>
>
> > On 14-02-2015, at 11:47, Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 14 Feb 2015, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote:
> >> There is value in these sessions, some people are completely new and we
> probably should still schedule them. However, I think we ought to do some
> new stuff along the lines of:
> >>
> >> How is the ASF different from other foundations?
> >> Why should I bring my project to Apache?
> >> How can I get paid to work on Apache projects?
> >> How do I build a business around apache software?
> >> Why doesn't the ASF pay for software development?
> >> Why, after 15 years, do people see the ASF as a desirable place to take
> software?
> >> Why does the ASF have a reputation for bureaucracy amongst the younger
> GitHub crowd?
> >> Just what rules are immutable in the ASF?
> >
> > Looks a great list to me!
> >
> > My only comment is that these look like the titles of all the sessions
> from a Community Track[1], rather than the parts of an abstract for just
> one talk. Is that what you had in mind? Or do you think we can really fit
> all of that into a single session?
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > [1] Or even a whole conference! Say, called something like Transfer
> > Summit? ;-)
>
> are there easily available data showing the benefits of plunking a project
> in Apache? One could also use, I’d imagine, other measures of ecosystem
> robustness. Basically, some measure or set thereof that illustrates the
> comparative benefit of Apache—?
>
> Louis
>
>
Re: Apache Way talks
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
> On 14-02-2015, at 14:03, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <Ro...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> Louis, for independent data see http://openlife.cc/blogs/2010/november/how-grow-your-open-source-project-10x-and-revenues-5x
>
> This isn't about the ASF but about foundations in general.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
Thanks Ross. I have not gone over the documents you cite; I used to use a different set, but that was then…./ Marking the value of community has always been difficult, as we all know. Especially when the need is to put it in terms that satisfy bean counters. (Even Santa Bitergia may not help us.)
louis
> ________________________________
> From: Louis Suárez-Potts<ma...@gmail.com>
> Sent: 2/14/2015 9:48 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
>
>
>> On 14-02-2015, at 11:47, Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 14 Feb 2015, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote:
>>> There is value in these sessions, some people are completely new and we probably should still schedule them. However, I think we ought to do some new stuff along the lines of:
>>>
>>> How is the ASF different from other foundations?
>>> Why should I bring my project to Apache?
>>> How can I get paid to work on Apache projects?
>>> How do I build a business around apache software?
>>> Why doesn't the ASF pay for software development?
>>> Why, after 15 years, do people see the ASF as a desirable place to take software?
>>> Why does the ASF have a reputation for bureaucracy amongst the younger GitHub crowd?
>>> Just what rules are immutable in the ASF?
>>
>> Looks a great list to me!
>>
>> My only comment is that these look like the titles of all the sessions from a Community Track[1], rather than the parts of an abstract for just one talk. Is that what you had in mind? Or do you think we can really fit all of that into a single session?
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> [1] Or even a whole conference! Say, called something like Transfer
>> Summit? ;-)
>
> are there easily available data showing the benefits of plunking a project in Apache? One could also use, I’d imagine, other measures of ecosystem robustness. Basically, some measure or set thereof that illustrates the comparative benefit of Apache—?
>
> Louis
>
RE: Apache Way talks
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
Louis, for independent data see http://openlife.cc/blogs/2010/november/how-grow-your-open-source-project-10x-and-revenues-5x
This isn't about the ASF but about foundations in general.
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Louis Suárez-Potts<ma...@gmail.com>
Sent: 2/14/2015 9:48 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
> On 14-02-2015, at 11:47, Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 14 Feb 2015, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote:
>> There is value in these sessions, some people are completely new and we probably should still schedule them. However, I think we ought to do some new stuff along the lines of:
>>
>> How is the ASF different from other foundations?
>> Why should I bring my project to Apache?
>> How can I get paid to work on Apache projects?
>> How do I build a business around apache software?
>> Why doesn't the ASF pay for software development?
>> Why, after 15 years, do people see the ASF as a desirable place to take software?
>> Why does the ASF have a reputation for bureaucracy amongst the younger GitHub crowd?
>> Just what rules are immutable in the ASF?
>
> Looks a great list to me!
>
> My only comment is that these look like the titles of all the sessions from a Community Track[1], rather than the parts of an abstract for just one talk. Is that what you had in mind? Or do you think we can really fit all of that into a single session?
>
> Nick
>
> [1] Or even a whole conference! Say, called something like Transfer
> Summit? ;-)
are there easily available data showing the benefits of plunking a project in Apache? One could also use, I’d imagine, other measures of ecosystem robustness. Basically, some measure or set thereof that illustrates the comparative benefit of Apache—?
Louis
Re: Apache Way talks
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
> On 14-02-2015, at 11:47, Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 14 Feb 2015, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote:
>> There is value in these sessions, some people are completely new and we probably should still schedule them. However, I think we ought to do some new stuff along the lines of:
>>
>> How is the ASF different from other foundations?
>> Why should I bring my project to Apache?
>> How can I get paid to work on Apache projects?
>> How do I build a business around apache software?
>> Why doesn't the ASF pay for software development?
>> Why, after 15 years, do people see the ASF as a desirable place to take software?
>> Why does the ASF have a reputation for bureaucracy amongst the younger GitHub crowd?
>> Just what rules are immutable in the ASF?
>
> Looks a great list to me!
>
> My only comment is that these look like the titles of all the sessions from a Community Track[1], rather than the parts of an abstract for just one talk. Is that what you had in mind? Or do you think we can really fit all of that into a single session?
>
> Nick
>
> [1] Or even a whole conference! Say, called something like Transfer
> Summit? ;-)
are there easily available data showing the benefits of plunking a project in Apache? One could also use, I’d imagine, other measures of ecosystem robustness. Basically, some measure or set thereof that illustrates the comparative benefit of Apache—?
Louis
RE: Apache Way talks
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
Yes I was thinking one session for. Newbies who also want to go to technical sessions
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Nick Burch<ma...@apache.org>
Sent: 2/14/2015 8:48 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org<ma...@community.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Apache Way talks
On Sat, 14 Feb 2015, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote:
> There is value in these sessions, some people are completely new and we
> probably should still schedule them. However, I think we ought to do
> some new stuff along the lines of:
>
> How is the ASF different from other foundations?
> Why should I bring my project to Apache?
> How can I get paid to work on Apache projects?
> How do I build a business around apache software?
> Why doesn't the ASF pay for software development?
> Why, after 15 years, do people see the ASF as a desirable place to take software?
> Why does the ASF have a reputation for bureaucracy amongst the younger GitHub crowd?
> Just what rules are immutable in the ASF?
Looks a great list to me!
My only comment is that these look like the titles of all the sessions
from a Community Track[1], rather than the parts of an abstract for just
one talk. Is that what you had in mind? Or do you think we can really fit
all of that into a single session?
Nick
[1] Or even a whole conference! Say, called something like Transfer
Summit? ;-)
Re: Apache Way talks
Posted by Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 14 Feb 2015, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote:
> There is value in these sessions, some people are completely new and we
> probably should still schedule them. However, I think we ought to do
> some new stuff along the lines of:
>
> How is the ASF different from other foundations?
> Why should I bring my project to Apache?
> How can I get paid to work on Apache projects?
> How do I build a business around apache software?
> Why doesn't the ASF pay for software development?
> Why, after 15 years, do people see the ASF as a desirable place to take software?
> Why does the ASF have a reputation for bureaucracy amongst the younger GitHub crowd?
> Just what rules are immutable in the ASF?
Looks a great list to me!
My only comment is that these look like the titles of all the sessions
from a Community Track[1], rather than the parts of an abstract for just
one talk. Is that what you had in mind? Or do you think we can really fit
all of that into a single session?
Nick
[1] Or even a whole conference! Say, called something like Transfer
Summit? ;-)