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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by Thorsten Scherler <th...@juntadeandalucia.es> on 2007/05/09 10:46:00 UTC
FUD (was Re: [Vote] ...)
On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 00:22 +0200, Michael Wechner wrote:
> Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
...
> so, why aren't they being listed? I think they should be listed for the
> record, for other people (e.g. contributors) to learn from how far one
> has to go to become a committer, for people who are not being able to
> follow every detail as other people are being able to, etc.
>
> Doesn't that make sense?
It makes sense to create documentation about how to become an apache
lenya committer, like:
http://forrest.apache.org/committed.html
or http://wiki.apache.org/nutch/Becoming_A_Nutch_Developer
...but I reckon you prefer giving good advice and asking rhetoric
questions instead to contribute such documentation or are you willing to
spent some time on such documentation? If not, I reckon you are more
focused on spreading FUD then actually helping the Lenya community, or?
Isn't it so much easier to criticize people, then actually doing some
work? Don't you think that all the prior vote threads in the archive
that contain hints what we are looking for in a committer aren't enough?
Do you think people are not intelligent enough to look up the mailing
list archive?
The reason why I have chosen not to meet *YOUR* demand is quite simple,
I want that more people review the mailing list and the bugzilla
themselves and starting to think what and who is good for this
community.
Don't you think more people should help identifying potential committer?
>
> >
> > now you pick out single lines of other people's postings, generalize
> > statements that were never meant as such, and ask rhethorical
> > questions that sometimes border on hostile yet seldom convey a
> > palpable personal standpoint. you claim ideals of good-will, openness
> > and meritocracy, but frequently phrase them in a way as to be plain
> > rude to people.
>
>
> why do you think these questions are rude? I don't think so.
lol.
Yeah and in the end that is the only thing that count, your own opinion,
isn't it? Three different PMC members have already pointed out that we
consider them rude, but I do not see that you are willing to listen to
this people. We are all equal here, but you are more equal then the
rest, aren't you?
> >
> > i know i can be obnoxious at times, but people can just should at me
> > and tell me i'm a jerk. your style of hiding behind suggestions and
> > rhetorical questions is rather more difficult to deal with, and not
> > likely to foster an open discussion.
>
>
> I am not hiding at all by posing questions, but I am asking questions
> because I would like to get some statements.
I doubt that, since we (different people) are pointing out (for a while
now) that your way of asking question is quite offending, but you make
no intentions to enhance it, do you not care about what other say?
> If you might remember I was answering Thomas' question why I started Yanel.
> Have you seen an answer from Thorsten lately why he is considering Alfresco?
>
> Ask me stuff and I will be happy to answer (if time permits ;-)
1) I am tiered that you spread FUD about me and take words out of my
mouth.
On 2007-04-27 23:02:22 I wrote:
"...I am ATM evaluating different CMS for my current client and one of
them is Alfresco. ..."
Meaning I never stated anything about what I consider or not. More I
clearly stated that I act on MY CLIENT assignment.
Using this sentence to state I am considering Alfresco, is FUD!
The Spanish government (which is my client) is evaluating around 10
different CMS (like Plone, Alfresco, Liferay, Daisy, Magnolia, ...). The
evaluation is not meet to be published on a public mailing list and is
very specific for different public organizations here in Spain.
2) I just got twins and my time is very limited. Your statement implies
that I do not answer if my time permits, again FUD. If you have a look
in our changes listed on the website you will find that I am one of few
that each month is committing to the project (unless like you!). I
prefer doing some work then feeding your FUD. Do you think that I do not
spent enough time on lenya? Are you not aware that I am as well active
on other Apache projects?
3) Comparing your actions with mine regarding the involvement of
different CMS development is comparing apples with oranges, don't you
think?
> >
> > why do you resign from pmc duties one week and start guideline
> > discussions the next?
>
>
> well, I am still a committer and have to follow guidelines. I am still
> an ASF member and think it's my responsibility to make sure that
> guidelines an ASF bylaws are being followed.
lol
Funny, you normally do not pay much attention to our guidelines or stuff
we asked you million times before, why didn't you change the subject
line to prevent the odd situation in the voting thread? I want to point
out that you REFUSED to review our guidelines when I made the guidelines
proposal, haven't you? How can you follow guidelines that you refused to
read?
...
> I have resigned from PMC because I seem to have a very different opinion
> where Lenya should go to and how this community should operate, but I am
> ready to accept this and after a very long time expressing my opinion
> without any change I don't think it makes sense to further spend time on it.
>
> Makes sense?
No, regarding the above paragraph you do not want to spend more time on
this discussions, so what are you doing? Your words does not compute
with your actions further you are contradict yourself from one mail to
the other!
>
> > sorry, but this looks like trolling to me, especially since you have
> > decided not to contribute to lenya anymore.
>
>
> I haven't decided to stop contributing anymore.
One commit in the last 6 month is saying something else, isn't it?. I
agree with Jörn, your actions look like a little kid that lost its
favorite toy and now is producing disturbance with the other kids out of
defiance.
...
> > imnsho we have way too much meta-talk about guidelines, meritocracy,
> > pmc roles and whatnot, and way too little work is getting done.
>
>
> I think this community will only survive in the long term if each member
> will stick to guidelines and rules, whereas understanding the reasoning
> of these guidelines is key and not the guidelines themselves.
So why aren't you the leading example? Seems you are just waiting that
this projects will fail, to be able to say "I told you so", aren't you?
> But it's a
> problem of getting to know people. This is why "being around for some
> time" is not such a bad quality ;-) but it's also important to know why
> somebody is being around :-)
Again see above 1) I am tiered that you spread FUD about me and take
words out of my mouth.
On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 14:58 +0200, Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> However it is not "being around for some time" like you state, why I
> propose him.
I explicitly state that being around is not a criteria! YOU said this!
So why you pervert my word saying:
On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 15:14 +0200, Michael Wechner wrote:
> You already started with one quality: Bob has been around for some
> time
Are you incredible ignorant or high on something or just want to piss
people off?
DO NOT put words in my mouth and do not spread FUD!
salu2
P.S.: I did not wanted to get involved in such discussion anymore,
because I have no time ATM at all and very tiered of this ego centric
way of discussions.
P.P.S.: If I do not give an answer for a while it may be that I need to
change dippers, feed the babies, work in my profession or sleep.
--
Thorsten Scherler thorsten.at.apache.org
Open Source Java consulting, training and solutions
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Re: FUD (was Re: [Vote] ...)
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@juntadeandalucia.es>.
On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 12:29 +0200, Michael Wechner wrote:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
...
> >Isn't it so much easier to criticize people, then actually doing some
> >work?
> >
...
> And I am not weighting how much have other people been done or doing,
> because most of it is voluntarily resp. depends on what position you are
> in (for instance PMC chair has some responsibilities, but it's voluntary
> to be PMC chair) and I also don't think it's very healthy for the
> relationship of this community to compare each other.
Nice to see that you finally changed your mind regarding this matter. I
can remember threads as http://marc.info/?t=113863779500003&r=1&w=2 on
dev and a lot on private where you did compare (even asked people to
step down from certain roles).
>
> For instance Andreas and Joern spend a lot of time code-wise, but I
> would never say that Jann or you are worse because you spend less time
> code-wise.
Didn't you just said you do not want to compare? So why are you doing it
now? Scary!
...
> >>>now you pick out single lines of other people's postings, generalize
> >>>statements that were never meant as such, and ask rhethorical
> >>>questions that sometimes border on hostile yet seldom convey a
> >>>palpable personal standpoint. you claim ideals of good-will, openness
> >>>and meritocracy, but frequently phrase them in a way as to be plain
> >>>rude to people.
...
> >>why do you think these questions are rude? I don't think so.
...
> >Yeah and in the end that is the only thing that count, your own opinion,
> >isn't it?
...
> But my question was, why do you think my questions are rude?
If you would spend more time reading answers carefully instead directly
replying, you see the answer already addressed in the original mail from
Jörn:
- pick out single lines of other people's postings
- generalize statements that were never meant as such
- rhetorical questions that sometimes border on hostile yet seldom convey a palpable personal standpoint
> So far, I just get the impression, that you cannot answer my questions,
Frankly no one can! See above (and further down) for the answer given
already to you, but if you do not get the answer that you like to hear,
you keep on asking the same question over and over again. Like a child
in the car asking every 5 min whether they reached the final
destination.
> maybe because you did something wrong, or didn't really think about your
> actions, or whatever.
Symptomatically you exclude an error by yourself. So it must be me,
right? BTW what have my actions to do in this context?
...
> >>Have you seen an answer from Thorsten lately why he is considering Alfresco?
...
> >
> >On 2007-04-27 23:02:22 I wrote:
> >"...I am ATM evaluating different CMS for my current client and one of
> >them is Alfresco. ..."
...
> >Using this sentence to state I am considering Alfresco, is FUD!
>
> I was just asking if you could post a summary of your findings such that
> we can learn something from.
No, the above clearly ask why I consider Alfresco (implying that I do).
...
> >The Spanish government (which is my client) is evaluating around 10
> >different CMS (like Plone, Alfresco, Liferay, Daisy, Magnolia, ...). The
> >evaluation is not meet to be published on a public mailing list and is
> >very specific for different public organizations here in Spain.
...
> sounds great. Maybe you can post a summary of the outcome of this
> evaluation.
The above paragraph clearly states that I cannot and further explain
that even if I can, it would be from very little value for lenya since
it is highly use case specific. Like said I did not give the answer you
like to hear so you go on and on and on...
...
> I think every help is appreciated, doesn't matter how big it is.
My words, nice that we have this in common.
> > Are you not aware that I am as well active
> >on other Apache projects?
...
> But as said I don't think it's healthy for this community to compare
> each other on voluntary work.
>
> I also got three children and salaries to pay and spend time on Open
> Source projects such as Yanel, Yulup, Open Development Initiative,
> Nutch/Lucene, OSCOM and Lenya but that's my problem and I won't make it
> a problem of this community.
I asked a question, didn't I? Did I compare anything or anyone? Did I
made my involvement or my private life a problem of this community? It
is sentence like this that explicitly imply I did, why are you saying
it? To offend? Out of carelessly?
On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 16:23 +0200, Michael Wechner wrote:
> you (and Thorsten and Gregor) are not able to differentiate between
> my
> statements/questions and the feelings you have towards myself.
Let me assure you, I do not have any feelings (nor hard nor warm) toward
your person. Why should I? I just do not like the way you ignore
statements from others, offending them to provoke a reaction. Maybe you
are the one that cannot differentiate?
salu2
--
Thorsten Scherler thorsten.at.apache.org
Open Source Java consulting, training and solutions
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Re: FUD (was Re: [Vote] ...)
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Comiotto Thomas wrote:
>>>
>>
>> I am not comparing. I was asking you for a summary re your findings
>> re Alfresco.
>> I guess Thomas was comparing ;-) but he might want to answer this
>> himself, because I really cannot speak for him.
>>
>
> No I wasn't. I simply asked you for some 1.6 roadmap input - based on
> your current work. No offense intended.
Thanks for clarifying
Michael
>
> Cheers
> Thomas
>
>
>
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>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
+41 44 272 91 61
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Re: FUD (was Re: [Vote] ...)
Posted by Comiotto Thomas <th...@unicom.unizh.ch>.
>>
>
> I am not comparing. I was asking you for a summary re your findings
> re Alfresco.
> I guess Thomas was comparing ;-) but he might want to answer this
> himself, because I really cannot speak for him.
>
No I wasn't. I simply asked you for some 1.6 roadmap input - based on
your current work. No offense intended.
Cheers
Thomas
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Re: FUD (was Re: [Vote] ...)
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
> am i losing list mails or are you guys constantly moving private
> discussions to this list?
>
> thomas mail ("Re: FUD") came totally out of the blue, and now i was just
> off to grab a cup of tea and all of a sudden people were discussing
> george bush...?!
>
> until now, i have 4 mails in the FUD thread (thomas, mich, andreas,
> michi), and two of them quoted mails i had not seen.
>
> to make sure it's not a problem with my mail setup, has anyone got
> more mails?
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cms.lenya.devel
resp.
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cms.lenya.devel/20000
HTH
Michael
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
+41 44 272 91 61
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Re: FUD (was Re: [Vote] ...)
Posted by Jörn Nettingsmeier <ne...@apache.org>.
am i losing list mails or are you guys constantly moving private
discussions to this list?
thomas mail ("Re: FUD") came totally out of the blue, and now i was just
off to grab a cup of tea and all of a sudden people were discussing
george bush...?!
until now, i have 4 mails in the FUD thread (thomas, mich, andreas,
michi), and two of them quoted mails i had not seen.
to make sure it's not a problem with my mail setup, has anyone got more
mails?
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Kurt is up in heaven now.
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Re: FUD (was Re: [Vote] ...)
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
I think there is plenty to argue again, but I am afraid this thread is
being endless and hence I want to stop it
at least from my side and will go change diapers of our youngest ;-)
Cheers
Michael
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>Michael Wechner schrieb:
>
>[...]
>
>
>
>>thanks for expressing your feelings and I will try to be more gentle,
>>but I am afraid that this won't help,
>>
>>
>
>I guess it would help - maybe not being more gentle, but being
>more direct and trying to avoid fallacies, comparisons, and
>emotional means of argumentation.
>
>
>
>
>>because it seems to me from your sentence above
>>you (and Thorsten and Gregor) are not able to differentiate between my
>>statements/questions and the feelings you have towards myself.
>>
>>
>
>I think you can't conclude anything about Thorsten and Gregor
>from my statement.
>
>As far as I'm concerned - I try not to be biased by personal emotions.
>I have the feeling that you see yourself in a corner, being
>misunderstood and attacked by other members of the community, and
>this might have lead to the problematic discussion style I mentioned
>above.
>
>We can't erase the past or neglect any emotions and experiences,
>so we should be especially careful about our style of writing.
>
>
>
>
>>I also think it's a pity, but you might want to try and ask yourself
>>honestly if it's different or not
>>resp.
>>you might want to re-read my original post
>>
>>http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cms.lenya.devel/20000
>>
>>
>
>As I understand it, the discussion started to become emotionally
>problematic when you accused Thorsten of not wanting to tell
>his reasons for proposing Bob, thus violating the concepts
>of openness and transparency. Maybe you didn't intend to accuse him,
>but I understood the mail like this.
>
>It's absolutely fine to question a policy or guideline, but it
>would have been more tactful not to do this in a thread which
>involves particular people which could feel accused (Thorsten
>and Bob). I agree with Gregor's reply [1].
>
>-- Andreas
>
>[1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cms.lenya.devel/20023
>
>
>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
+41 44 272 91 61
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Re: FUD (was Re: [Vote] ...)
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner schrieb:
[...]
> thanks for expressing your feelings and I will try to be more gentle,
> but I am afraid that this won't help,
I guess it would help - maybe not being more gentle, but being
more direct and trying to avoid fallacies, comparisons, and
emotional means of argumentation.
> because it seems to me from your sentence above
> you (and Thorsten and Gregor) are not able to differentiate between my
> statements/questions and the feelings you have towards myself.
I think you can't conclude anything about Thorsten and Gregor
from my statement.
As far as I'm concerned - I try not to be biased by personal emotions.
I have the feeling that you see yourself in a corner, being
misunderstood and attacked by other members of the community, and
this might have lead to the problematic discussion style I mentioned
above.
We can't erase the past or neglect any emotions and experiences,
so we should be especially careful about our style of writing.
> I also think it's a pity, but you might want to try and ask yourself
> honestly if it's different or not
> resp.
> you might want to re-read my original post
>
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cms.lenya.devel/20000
As I understand it, the discussion started to become emotionally
problematic when you accused Thorsten of not wanting to tell
his reasons for proposing Bob, thus violating the concepts
of openness and transparency. Maybe you didn't intend to accuse him,
but I understood the mail like this.
It's absolutely fine to question a policy or guideline, but it
would have been more tactful not to do this in a thread which
involves particular people which could feel accused (Thorsten
and Bob). I agree with Gregor's reply [1].
-- Andreas
[1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cms.lenya.devel/20023
--
Andreas Hartmann, CTO
BeCompany GmbH
http://www.becompany.ch
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Re: FUD (was Re: [Vote] ...)
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>Michi,
>
>since you're asking us to point out what we don't like about your
>style of arguing, I will try to express my feelings about some
>of your statements. Sorry that I'm citing only selected paragraphs,
>neglecting their context, but I refer only to the style, not the
>contents.
>
>
>Michael Wechner schrieb:
>
>
>
>>But my question was, why do you think my questions are rude? Is it the
>>tone? Is it that I seem to imply something? Is it that I might be
>>right?
>>
>>
>
>In Thorsten's place, I'd feel offended by this. You're suggesting
>that he either behaves in an immature way or that he tries to argue
>by emotional appeals, distracting from the meaning of your statements.
>And you're being polemic, which may cause negative feelings towards you.
>You're putting Thorsten in the position to defend himself. I guess
>that was the reason why his last mail was this harsh.
>
>[...]
>
>
>
>>Just as an example and I am not comparing you or any other person with
>>George Bush, but do you also
>>think it is offending to ask George Bush why the war in Iraq is happening?
>>
>>
>
>IMO this is arguing by emotional appeals. You say you don't want
>to compare anyone to G. Bush, but what you really do is generate
>an association to cause a negative bias. The situation you mention
>(asking about the Iraq war) is not at all comparable to our discussion,
>it feels grotesque to mention it in this context. At least in my
>eyes this causes a negative emotion towards your style of discussion.
>
>[...]
>
>
>
>>>So why aren't you the leading example? Seems you are just waiting
>>>that this projects will fail, to be able to say "I told you so",
>>>aren't you?
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>not at all and I don't see any reason why I should hope for this.
>>At least not as long as it is still called Lenya, which is a combination
>>of the names of my first two sons ;-)
>>(but please don't take my last sentence too seriously)
>>
>>
>
>Well, which amount of seriousness is appropriate here?
>After all, you wrote this sentence. I understand it like you claim
>a special position as the originator of the project. It feels like
>you're appealing to our guilt - neglecting your suggestions means not
>giving you the due respect as the originator of the project.
>
>[...]
>
>
>
>>I can only ask you to read my questions and statements as they would
>>have been written by someone else and that you don't assume too much
>>about myself and I am sure you will view things differently.
>>
>>
>
>When I read something by someone I know, I always have the person in
>mind. And I think it's a pity if you have to tell people to neglect
>the association between your statements and yourself.
>
>
thanks for expressing your feelings and I will try to be more gentle,
but I am afraid
that this won't help, because it seems to me from your sentence above
you (and Thorsten and Gregor) are not able to differentiate between my
statements/questions and the feelings you have towards myself.
I also think it's a pity, but you might want to try and ask yourself
honestly if it's different or not resp.
you might want to re-read my original post
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.cms.lenya.devel/20000
Cheers
Michael
>
>Well, if we would only put that much effort in technical
>discussions ... :)
>
>
>-- Andreas
>
>
>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
+41 44 272 91 61
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Re: FUD (was Re: [Vote] ...)
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Michi,
since you're asking us to point out what we don't like about your
style of arguing, I will try to express my feelings about some
of your statements. Sorry that I'm citing only selected paragraphs,
neglecting their context, but I refer only to the style, not the
contents.
Michael Wechner schrieb:
> But my question was, why do you think my questions are rude? Is it the
> tone? Is it that I seem to imply something? Is it that I might be
> right?
In Thorsten's place, I'd feel offended by this. You're suggesting
that he either behaves in an immature way or that he tries to argue
by emotional appeals, distracting from the meaning of your statements.
And you're being polemic, which may cause negative feelings towards you.
You're putting Thorsten in the position to defend himself. I guess
that was the reason why his last mail was this harsh.
[...]
> Just as an example and I am not comparing you or any other person with
> George Bush, but do you also
> think it is offending to ask George Bush why the war in Iraq is happening?
IMO this is arguing by emotional appeals. You say you don't want
to compare anyone to G. Bush, but what you really do is generate
an association to cause a negative bias. The situation you mention
(asking about the Iraq war) is not at all comparable to our discussion,
it feels grotesque to mention it in this context. At least in my
eyes this causes a negative emotion towards your style of discussion.
[...]
>> So why aren't you the leading example? Seems you are just waiting
>> that this projects will fail, to be able to say "I told you so",
>> aren't you?
> not at all and I don't see any reason why I should hope for this.
> At least not as long as it is still called Lenya, which is a combination
> of the names of my first two sons ;-)
> (but please don't take my last sentence too seriously)
Well, which amount of seriousness is appropriate here?
After all, you wrote this sentence. I understand it like you claim
a special position as the originator of the project. It feels like
you're appealing to our guilt - neglecting your suggestions means not
giving you the due respect as the originator of the project.
[...]
> I can only ask you to read my questions and statements as they would
> have been written by someone else and that you don't assume too much
> about myself and I am sure you will view things differently.
When I read something by someone I know, I always have the person in
mind. And I think it's a pity if you have to tell people to neglect
the association between your statements and yourself.
Well, if we would only put that much effort in technical
discussions ... :)
-- Andreas
--
Andreas Hartmann, CTO
BeCompany GmbH
http://www.becompany.ch
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How to become a committer (was Re: ...)
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 12:29 +0200, Michael Wechner wrote:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> >On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 00:22 +0200, Michael Wechner wrote:
> >
> >>so, why aren't they being listed? I think they should be listed for the
> >>record, for other people (e.g. contributors) to learn from how far one
> >>has to go to become a committer, for people who are not being able to
> >>follow every detail as other people are being able to, etc.
> >>
> >>Doesn't that make sense?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >It makes sense to create documentation about how to become an apache
> >lenya committer, like:
> >http://forrest.apache.org/committed.html
> >or http://wiki.apache.org/nutch/Becoming_A_Nutch_Developer
> ...
>
> I am happy to write a proposal resp. compile the links you have sent above.
> But I don't think such a proposal should be part of the documentation
> right away but first should be discussed and voted on.
> So, shall I start one within the Wiki or do you think there is a better
> place?
Yes, please start a wiki page.
salu2
--
Thorsten Scherler thorsten.at.apache.org
Open Source Java consulting, training and solutions
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Re: FUD (was Re: [Vote] ...)
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 00:22 +0200, Michael Wechner wrote:
>
>
>>Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
>>
>>
>...
>
>
>
>>so, why aren't they being listed? I think they should be listed for the
>>record, for other people (e.g. contributors) to learn from how far one
>>has to go to become a committer, for people who are not being able to
>>follow every detail as other people are being able to, etc.
>>
>>Doesn't that make sense?
>>
>>
>
>It makes sense to create documentation about how to become an apache
>lenya committer, like:
>http://forrest.apache.org/committed.html
>or http://wiki.apache.org/nutch/Becoming_A_Nutch_Developer
>
>...but I reckon you prefer giving good advice and asking rhetoric
>questions instead to contribute such documentation or are you willing to
>spent some time on such documentation?
>
I am happy to write a proposal resp. compile the links you have sent above.
But I don't think such a proposal should be part of the documentation
right away but first should be discussed and voted on.
So, shall I start one within the Wiki or do you think there is a better
place?
> If not, I reckon you are more
>focused on spreading FUD then actually helping the Lenya community, or?
>
>
I am not spreading FUD, I was just asking a simple question: What do you
think are the merits of Bob to make him a committer?
>Isn't it so much easier to criticize people, then actually doing some
>work?
>
I think I have done a lot of work on Lenya. Yes, I am not so active
anymore code-wise directly at the moment,
but for instance I am still trying to help users. Also if time permits I
will try to improve the Neutron implementation
which I hope people will benefit from.
And I am not weighting how much have other people been done or doing,
because most of it is voluntarily resp. depends on what position you are
in (for instance PMC chair has some responsibilities, but it's voluntary
to be PMC chair) and I also don't think it's very healthy for the
relationship of this community to compare each other.
For instance Andreas and Joern spend a lot of time code-wise, but I
would never say that Jann or you are worse because you spend less time
code-wise.
> Don't you think that all the prior vote threads in the archive
>that contain hints what we are looking for in a committer aren't enough?
>
>
no, because everyone will interpret them differently and make their own
assumptions, which might be wrong or right
>Do you think people are not intelligent enough to look up the mailing
>list archive?
>
>
I guess they are intelligent enough, but I think it's a waste of
resources, that each person
has to analyze history and also the chances are high that people
interpret it quite differently
>The reason why I have chosen not to meet *YOUR* demand is quite simple,
>I want that more people review the mailing list and the bugzilla
>themselves and starting to think what and who is good for this
>community.
>
>
just say that, but don't mix it with an actual vote. One thing is the
process and the other how to
get people involved.
>Don't you think more people should help identifying potential committer?
>
>
I don't think identifying is the problem
>
>
>>>now you pick out single lines of other people's postings, generalize
>>>statements that were never meant as such, and ask rhethorical
>>>questions that sometimes border on hostile yet seldom convey a
>>>palpable personal standpoint. you claim ideals of good-will, openness
>>>and meritocracy, but frequently phrase them in a way as to be plain
>>>rude to people.
>>>
>>>
>>why do you think these questions are rude? I don't think so.
>>
>>
>
>lol.
>
>Yeah and in the end that is the only thing that count, your own opinion,
>isn't it?
>
I state my opionion and I am listening and am happy to accept other
opinions.
But my question was, why do you think my questions are rude? Is it the
tone? Is it that I seem to imply something? Is it that I might be right?
Answering this question would help me to understand why you think my
questions are rude and then mabye I could change something about it.
So far, I just get the impression, that you cannot answer my questions,
maybe because you did something wrong, or didn't really think about your
actions, or whatever. How should I know resp. I don't want to make wrong
assumptions and hence I am asking questions.
> Three different PMC members have already pointed out that we
>consider them rude, but I do not see that you are willing to listen to
>this people. We are all equal here, but you are more equal then the
>rest, aren't you?
>
>
>
>>>i know i can be obnoxious at times, but people can just should at me
>>>and tell me i'm a jerk. your style of hiding behind suggestions and
>>>rhetorical questions is rather more difficult to deal with, and not
>>>likely to foster an open discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>I am not hiding at all by posing questions, but I am asking questions
>>because I would like to get some statements.
>>
>>
>
>I doubt that, since we (different people) are pointing out (for a while
>now) that your way of asking question is quite offending, but you make
>no intentions to enhance it, do you not care about what other say?
>
>
sure, but you might want to tell me what is offending about the questions.
Just as an example and I am not comparing you or any other person with
George Bush, but do you also
think it is offending to ask George Bush why the war in Iraq is happening?
>
>
>>If you might remember I was answering Thomas' question why I started Yanel.
>>Have you seen an answer from Thorsten lately why he is considering Alfresco?
>>
>>Ask me stuff and I will be happy to answer (if time permits ;-)
>>
>>
>
>
>1) I am tiered that you spread FUD about me and take words out of my
>mouth.
>
>On 2007-04-27 23:02:22 I wrote:
>"...I am ATM evaluating different CMS for my current client and one of
>them is Alfresco. ..."
>
>Meaning I never stated anything about what I consider or not. More I
>clearly stated that I act on MY CLIENT assignment.
>
>Using this sentence to state I am considering Alfresco, is FUD!
>
>
I was just asking if you could post a summary of your findings such that
we can learn something from.
I am not asking for secrets of you or your clients, just a
constructive/neutral summary.
I think it still would be nice if you could post such a summary.
And I think you are interpreting too much into my questions, but you
should rather just read my questions
if Andreas or Joern might have posted them.
>The Spanish government (which is my client) is evaluating around 10
>different CMS (like Plone, Alfresco, Liferay, Daisy, Magnolia, ...). The
>evaluation is not meet to be published on a public mailing list and is
>very specific for different public organizations here in Spain.
>
>
sounds great. Maybe you can post a summary of the outcome of this
evaluation.
>2) I just got twins and my time is very limited. Your statement implies
>that I do not answer if my time permits, again FUD. If you have a look
>in our changes listed on the website you will find that I am one of few
>that each month is committing to the project (unless like you!). I
>prefer doing some work then feeding your FUD. Do you think that I do not
>spent enough time on lenya?
>
I think every help is appreciated, doesn't matter how big it is.
> Are you not aware that I am as well active
>on other Apache projects?
>
>
yes, for instance I see you spending quite some time on Forrest and also
some time Nutch
I think that's great.
But as said I don't think it's healthy for this community to compare
each other on voluntary work.
I also got three children and salaries to pay and spend time on Open
Source projects such as Yanel, Yulup, Open Development Initiative,
Nutch/Lucene, OSCOM and Lenya but that's my problem and I won't make it
a problem of this community.
>3) Comparing your actions with mine regarding the involvement of
>different CMS development is comparing apples with oranges, don't you
>think?
>
>
I am not comparing. I was asking you for a summary re your findings re
Alfresco.
I guess Thomas was comparing ;-) but he might want to answer this
himself, because I really cannot speak for him.
>
>
>>>why do you resign from pmc duties one week and start guideline
>>>discussions the next?
>>>
>>>
>>well, I am still a committer and have to follow guidelines. I am still
>>an ASF member and think it's my responsibility to make sure that
>>guidelines an ASF bylaws are being followed.
>>
>>
>
>lol
>
>Funny, you normally do not pay much attention to our guidelines or stuff
>we asked you million times before, why didn't you change the subject
>line to prevent the odd situation in the voting thread?
>
yes, I should have changed the subject and I apologize for that, but any
other person
could have changed it as well, but you did it now and that's good.
> I want to point
>out that you REFUSED to review our guidelines when I made the guidelines
>proposal, haven't you? How can you follow guidelines that you refused to
>read?
>
>
I didn't agree on the guidelines, because I think we should have started
from scratch and only used
other guidlines as examples, such that we would really have to
understand the reasoning behind each rule
and that we also write this reasoning.
And I still think that would have been the right process.
>...
>
>
>
>>I have resigned from PMC because I seem to have a very different opinion
>>where Lenya should go to and how this community should operate, but I am
>>ready to accept this and after a very long time expressing my opinion
>>without any change I don't think it makes sense to further spend time on it.
>>
>>Makes sense?
>>
>>
>
>No, regarding the above paragraph you do not want to spend more time on
>this discussions, so what are you doing? Your words does not compute
>with your actions further you are contradict yourself from one mail to
>the other!
>
>
I don't think I contradict myself and I think after such a long time
without any real change within the PMC it just doesn't seem to make
sense. So I am a happy committer now and maybe in the future I will also
resign as a committer, but for the moment I still think I can contribute
something code-wise and I hope I will be able to do so soon again.
>
>
>>>sorry, but this looks like trolling to me, especially since you have
>>>decided not to contribute to lenya anymore.
>>>
>>>
>>I haven't decided to stop contributing anymore.
>>
>>
>
>One commit in the last 6 month is saying something else, isn't it?. I
>agree with Jörn, your actions look like a little kid that lost its
>favorite toy and now is producing disturbance with the other kids out of
>defiance.
>
>
I can only say that this is not the case
>...
>
>
>>>imnsho we have way too much meta-talk about guidelines, meritocracy,
>>>pmc roles and whatnot, and way too little work is getting done.
>>>
>>>
>>I think this community will only survive in the long term if each member
>>will stick to guidelines and rules, whereas understanding the reasoning
>>of these guidelines is key and not the guidelines themselves.
>>
>>
>
>So why aren't you the leading example? Seems you are just waiting that
>this projects will fail, to be able to say "I told you so", aren't you?
>
>
not at all and I don't see any reason why I should hope for this.
At least not as long as it is still called Lenya, which is a combination
of the names of my first two sons ;-)
(but please don't take my last sentence too seriously)
>
>
>>But it's a
>>problem of getting to know people. This is why "being around for some
>>time" is not such a bad quality ;-) but it's also important to know why
>>somebody is being around :-)
>>
>>
>
>Again see above 1) I am tiered that you spread FUD about me and take
>words out of my mouth.
>
>On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 14:58 +0200, Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>
>
>>However it is not "being around for some time" like you state, why I
>>propose him.
>>
>>
>
>I explicitly state that being around is not a criteria! YOU said this!
>
>
I think it is a criteria, but only one and I would have been interested
what other criteria you see.
>So why you pervert my word saying:
>
>On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 15:14 +0200, Michael Wechner wrote:
>
>
>>You already started with one quality: Bob has been around for some
>>time
>>
>>
>
>Are you incredible ignorant or high on something or just want to piss
>people off?
>
>DO NOT put words in my mouth and do not spread FUD!
>
>salu2
>
>P.S.: I did not wanted to get involved in such discussion anymore,
>because I have no time ATM at all and very tiered of this ego centric
>way of discussions.
>
>P.P.S.: If I do not give an answer for a while it may be that I need to
>change dippers, feed the babies, work in my profession or sleep.
>
>
It seems to me that you currently have a very hard time and I understand
your situation very well, since
I know how it is to combine family with work and I am sorry that it
might be very exhausting at the moment for you.
I can only ask you to read my questions and statements as they would
have been written by someone else and that you don't assume too much
about myself and I am sure you will view things differently.
Cheers
Michael
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
+41 44 272 91 61
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