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Posted to dev@geronimo.apache.org by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com> on 2006/02/17 20:42:04 UTC
Ode proposal
I've placed a tentative version of the proposal up onto the incubator site.
The Software Grant has been received.
There is obviously a lot of good discussion that still needs to take
place. I think we should move this to the new mailing lists.
I think that we need to create:
- mailing lists
- svn repo
- jira project
One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
Regards,
Alan
RE: Ode proposal
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Niclas,
> I am *not* critical to *you* [but] to the process of "exclusion by
> default", which is something new to the Incubation policies.
No such thing is happening.
> My Concern; Proposals in the past have always had a set of
> initial committers which equated (approx) the people that
> have developed the initial codebase
And no one is saying that those people won't be Committers.
On the other hand, I will also point out that the recent proposal for an
open door policy for ASF Committers to immediately join any new podling was
not widely considered a good idea.
There are two pieces to electing Committers: process and policy. Process is
separate from policy. We have a standard process in the ASF, and there is
no reason not to apply that process in the Incubator.
--- Noel
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Sunday 19 February 2006 03:11, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Here's a good chance to review my involvment:
> So what it comes down to what i am actually working on is as follows:
> beehive, geronimo, gump, ws-all, security, ode
:o) I am *not* critical to *you* or how you distribute your volunteer effort,
but to the process of "exclusion by default", which is something new to the
Incubation policies.
Dims, I think you are putting in a great effort at ASF, both in time, quality
and diligence. And I only brought it up because I think "stretching oneself
thin" will lead to a "smaller sum", and I would be disappointed to see that
happen.
> Now, If you are talking about who the initial committer set is going
> to be for ode, Please take that discussion to the ode-dev.
No, that is not part of my concerns. The details of Ode, I leave to the people
who understand the technology and how it fits into various ASF projects.
My Concern; Proposals in the past have always had a set of initial committers
which equated (approx) the people that have developed the initial codebase,
in for of OSS community or employees, plus ASF folks who are interested.
*I* have not seen anyone highlighting that this has been a problem. Now, that
is being changed for Ode, IMHO without much debate, and from my angle it
*seems* that the *reason* is that 37 committers are listed, and considered
not feasible.
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Here's a good chance to review my involvment:
beehive = Was a mentor to help with JSR 181 Impl and Axis integration
cocoon = Consider myself Emeritus, can revoke my karms
geronimo = Was a mentor to help with Axis integration
gump = Was a mentor and helping with for example Kaffe runs for a bit.
harmony = Was a mentor, still keeping an eye.
jakarta-commons = Was once a committer on HTTPClient, could easily
mark myself as Emeritus, can revoke my karma
juice = Needed for WSS4J, so i am helping here a bit, we are talking
about one pmc for both juice and xml-security
ode = You know the story here...
portals = wsrp4j was spun out from ws and helped with transition, can
revoke karma
portals-wsrp4j = spun out from ws, can revoke karma
jcp-axis-nda = Need this to access JAXRPC tck
ws-tsik = We are considering be shutting down incubation of this project.
ws-synapse = This will fold into ws-all after incubation is complete.
ws-tuscany = This will fold into ws-all after incubation is complete.
ws-woden = This will fold into ws-all after incubation is complete.
ws-all = Need this :)
xml-security = Needed for WSS4J, and hence helping a bit.
So what it comes down to what i am actually working on is as follows:
beehive, geronimo, gump, ws-all, security, ode
Which does not sound that bad...same as Ken and Noel. Please note that
if the current proposal *HAD NOT* happened, then we would have started
a bpel impl in ws pmc when we were ready. So that's one less than the
list above.
Now, If you are talking about who the initial committer set is going
to be for ode, Please take that discussion to the ode-dev. You
suggestions are welcome! As Noel mentioned, we will start with Ishmael
and Bill on the PPMC as soon as the incubator pmc vote is done.
thanks,
dims
On 2/18/06, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
> On Saturday 18 February 2006 12:05, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Got word from Noel that the PPMC for Ode (seeded by mentors) will VOTE
> > on giving people access (just like Harmony and other projects).
>
> Without getting into what representation of Noel's statement was...
>
> All due respect, I still didn't get an answer on why it is such a big deal
> (Harmony is different due to SCSL exposure, and IIRC no initial codebase
> either).
>
> Let's assume for a second that the bar of entry is raised to HTTPd levels for
> podlings, and podlings coming into the Incubator at the current rate;
>
> I can only observe that the individuals driving all these proposals are
> largely the same group of people. Even when working full time on Apache
> projects, each one's effort will stretch very thin.
>
> Quick (non-scientific[1]) look at projects you guys (mentors of ODE) are
> working on;
> Dims = 18 projects
> Strachan = 12 projects
> Geir = 16 projects
>
> And compare that with some "heavy weighters";
>
> Ken Coar = 6 projects
> Greg Stein = 5 projects.
> Roy Fielding = 3 projects
> Noel Bergman = 6 projects
>
> Please note; this is not about *your* commitment to ASF, and how you choose to
> distribute your time over 1 or many projects, but isn't it in the interest of
> the ASF to distribute the work load, broaden the community and get "more
> hands on deck"??
>
> I can't see *any* benefit of locking out the people who wrote the code in the
> first place. I can't see any benefit of the three mentors doing a
> person-by-person vetting process. I only see slower pace and potential
> frustration from individuals who has been working on the codebase, possibly
> for years.
>
>
> Cheers
> Niclas
>
>
> [1] grep <apachename> /x1/svn/asf-authorization | grep -v ^pmc-chairs | grep
> -v ^svnadmins | grep -v ^members | grep -v ^apsite | grep -v ^committers |
> grep -v ^infrastructure | grep -v pmc | grep -v ^avalon | grep -v ^board |
> grep -c ""
>
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>
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Re: Committer karma for Incubator Projects
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Saturday 18 February 2006 14:42, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> The process is that the PPMC should be voting, just as we would in any
> project. The process has nothing to do with the policy (whom, how many,
> etc.).
Side note; I have hanged around ASF a long time as many others. A long time
ago votes were fairly rare and formal. Nowadays, votes are flying left, right
and center. What happened to the good'ol "Community Consensus", which didn't
require votes?
> > I can't see any benefit of the three mentors doing a
> > person-by-person vetting process.
>
> Who said that they would? And the first thing that I suggested that the
> PPMC do is vote Bill Flood and Ismael onto the PPMC.
So, are we seeing a new policy being formed??
1. Get N mentors to back a proposal.
2. These mentors form the initial PPMC.
3. The regular "Apache Way" process takes over.
4. A "mega patch" in form of "initial codebase" constitutes commitment and
likelihood of committer status.
Maybe not. My point is; Last year's project, Harmony notable exception,
started with an initial set of committers. *Now* this has been changed. Why?
Becase instead of 6 person strong (or weak) initial committership list, we
now see a much stronger initial community, 37 people, many who will probably
be more active than "freeriders" on other projects? It doesn't make sense...
Over and out.
Niclas
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Committer karma for Incubator Projects
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Got word from Noel that the PPMC for Ode (seeded by mentors) will
> > VOTE on giving people access (just like Harmony and other projects).
> Without getting into what representation of Noel's statement was...
Ode hasn't hit the archive server yet, but what I said was:
We're also trying to have a relatively low barrier to help
build community.
We have generally agreed that existing ASF Committers who want
to participate should sign up as the project is starting, and
should be accepted. But as a general rule, the PPMC should be
voting on committers. Again with an eye for community building.
The process is that the PPMC should be voting, just as we would in any
project. The process has nothing to do with the policy (whom, how many,
etc.).
> isn't it in the interest of the ASF to distribute the work load,
> broaden the community and get "more hands on deck"??
Absolutely. I wouldn't expect Mentors to be heavy committers. I would
expect them to help guide community building.
> I can't see any benefit of the three mentors doing a
> person-by-person vetting process.
Who said that they would? And the first thing that I suggested that the
PPMC do is vote Bill Flood and Ismael onto the PPMC.
--- Noel
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Saturday 18 February 2006 12:05, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Got word from Noel that the PPMC for Ode (seeded by mentors) will VOTE
> on giving people access (just like Harmony and other projects).
Without getting into what representation of Noel's statement was...
All due respect, I still didn't get an answer on why it is such a big deal
(Harmony is different due to SCSL exposure, and IIRC no initial codebase
either).
Let's assume for a second that the bar of entry is raised to HTTPd levels for
podlings, and podlings coming into the Incubator at the current rate;
I can only observe that the individuals driving all these proposals are
largely the same group of people. Even when working full time on Apache
projects, each one's effort will stretch very thin.
Quick (non-scientific[1]) look at projects you guys (mentors of ODE) are
working on;
Dims = 18 projects
Strachan = 12 projects
Geir = 16 projects
And compare that with some "heavy weighters";
Ken Coar = 6 projects
Greg Stein = 5 projects.
Roy Fielding = 3 projects
Noel Bergman = 6 projects
Please note; this is not about *your* commitment to ASF, and how you choose to
distribute your time over 1 or many projects, but isn't it in the interest of
the ASF to distribute the work load, broaden the community and get "more
hands on deck"??
I can't see *any* benefit of locking out the people who wrote the code in the
first place. I can't see any benefit of the three mentors doing a
person-by-person vetting process. I only see slower pace and potential
frustration from individuals who has been working on the codebase, possibly
for years.
Cheers
Niclas
[1] grep <apachename> /x1/svn/asf-authorization | grep -v ^pmc-chairs | grep
-v ^svnadmins | grep -v ^members | grep -v ^apsite | grep -v ^committers |
grep -v ^infrastructure | grep -v pmc | grep -v ^avalon | grep -v ^board |
grep -c ""
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RE: Ode proposal
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Got word from Noel that the PPMC for Ode (seeded by mentors) will VOTE
> on giving people access (just [other projects]).
That is a subset of what I said, but as a rule, the PPMC should be providing
access. That does not imply on what policy that access is granted.
--- Noel
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Niclas,
Got word from Noel that the PPMC for Ode (seeded by mentors) will VOTE
on giving people access (just like Harmony and other projects).
thanks,
dims
On 2/17/06, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
> On Saturday 18 February 2006 04:00, Matthieu Riou wrote:
> > Well, if we proceed only by patch submission, there won't be anybody
> > from Sybase or Intalio to start with. Perhaps a couple of developers
> > could be picked up for each product and then we'll apply the usual
> > meritocracy rules for the others. What do you think?
>
> Yes, that would be a great way to limit Sybase and Intalio paid developers to
> be part of the process and slow down the work.
>
> Question; What is the big deal of having 5 vs 50 committers (or 500) to a
> project?? So one can feel special??
>
>
> Cheers
> Niclas
>
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Saturday 18 February 2006 04:00, Matthieu Riou wrote:
> Well, if we proceed only by patch submission, there won't be anybody
> from Sybase or Intalio to start with. Perhaps a couple of developers
> could be picked up for each product and then we'll apply the usual
> meritocracy rules for the others. What do you think?
Yes, that would be a great way to limit Sybase and Intalio paid developers to
be part of the process and slow down the work.
Question; What is the big deal of having 5 vs 50 committers (or 500) to a
project?? So one can feel special??
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@gmail.com>.
Well, if we proceed only by patch submission, there won't be anybody
from Sybase or Intalio to start with. Perhaps a couple of developers
could be picked up for each product and then we'll apply the usual
meritocracy rules for the others. What do you think?
Regards,
Matthieu.
On 2/17/06, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
> I've placed a tentative version of the proposal up onto the incubator site.
>
> The Software Grant has been received.
>
> There is obviously a lot of good discussion that still needs to take
> place. I think we should move this to the new mailing lists.
>
> I think that we need to create:
>
> - mailing lists
> - svn repo
> - jira project
>
> One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
> bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
> committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
> rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
> that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
>
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
incubator.apache.org
Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> Sorry, that's what I meant. What are the domains for the lists?
>
> Davanum Srinivas wrote, On 2/17/2006 1:19 PM:
>> harmony-ppmc...Also dont' forget to change the domains for the lists..
>>
>> -- dims
>>
>> On 2/17/06, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Davanum Srinivas wrote, On 2/17/2006 12:01 PM:
>>>
>>>> Hmm...Can we apply the same criteria to *ALL* committers (including
>>>> those listed in the status page now?)
>>>>
>>>> One more question, Since Noel (as the PMC Chair) talked about
>>>> Incubator pmc sponsoring this, can we please reflect that and ask for
>>>> a ppmc mailing list as well?
>>>
>>> Cool. Will do. What's the format of the ppmc mailing lists?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
Sorry, that's what I meant. What are the domains for the lists?
Davanum Srinivas wrote, On 2/17/2006 1:19 PM:
> harmony-ppmc...Also dont' forget to change the domains for the lists..
>
> -- dims
>
> On 2/17/06, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>
>>Davanum Srinivas wrote, On 2/17/2006 12:01 PM:
>>
>>>Hmm...Can we apply the same criteria to *ALL* committers (including
>>>those listed in the status page now?)
>>>
>>>One more question, Since Noel (as the PMC Chair) talked about
>>>Incubator pmc sponsoring this, can we please reflect that and ask for
>>>a ppmc mailing list as well?
>>
>>Cool. Will do. What's the format of the ppmc mailing lists?
>>
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>Alan
>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
>
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
harmony-ppmc...Also dont' forget to change the domains for the lists..
-- dims
On 2/17/06, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
> Davanum Srinivas wrote, On 2/17/2006 12:01 PM:
> > Hmm...Can we apply the same criteria to *ALL* committers (including
> > those listed in the status page now?)
> >
> > One more question, Since Noel (as the PMC Chair) talked about
> > Incubator pmc sponsoring this, can we please reflect that and ask for
> > a ppmc mailing list as well?
>
> Cool. Will do. What's the format of the ppmc mailing lists?
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
>
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
Davanum Srinivas wrote, On 2/17/2006 12:01 PM:
> Hmm...Can we apply the same criteria to *ALL* committers (including
> those listed in the status page now?)
>
> One more question, Since Noel (as the PMC Chair) talked about
> Incubator pmc sponsoring this, can we please reflect that and ask for
> a ppmc mailing list as well?
Cool. Will do. What's the format of the ppmc mailing lists?
Regards,
Alan
Re: Ode proposal
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
Davanum Srinivas wrote, On 2/17/2006 12:01 PM:
> Hmm...Can we apply the same criteria to *ALL* committers (including
> those listed in the status page now?)
>
> One more question, Since Noel (as the PMC Chair) talked about
> Incubator pmc sponsoring this, can we please reflect that and ask for
> a ppmc mailing list as well?
Cool. Will do. What's the format of the ppmc mailing lists?
Regards,
Alan
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com>.
On 17 Feb 2006, at 22:22, Brett Porter wrote:
> On 2/18/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You are right, we need to set guidelines for selecting inital
>> committers. Not sure where to start. ideas are welcome.
>
> The other alternative is to add all 37 to lower the barrier to entry
> and cut this back to the regular, recent contributors when it
> graduates. Normally this would be too much of a burden on infra, but
> AIUI these are mostly existing Apache committers.
>
> Another similar alternative is to add those proposed by Sybase and
> Intalio, and institute a rule that any servicemix/geronimo/WS/Agila
> committers can request access at any time during incubation.
This sounds good to me.
James
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RE: Ode proposal
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Noel asked me to add just the mentors to the ppmc list for now.
To be clear, I asked you to get the mentors onto the PPMC immediately. As
opposed to waiting for them to subscribe. I didn't make any comment about
anyone else. :-)
--- Noel
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Guillaume Nodet <gu...@worldonline.fr>.
On behalf of dims:
Noel asked me to add just the mentors to the ppmc list for now. so
please go ahead and subscribe to the other mailing lists. i'll add geir
and james to the ppmc list.
thanks,
dims
Brett Porter wrote:
>On 2/18/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>As far as i can remember, We started Harmony with Zero code and Zero
>>committers...It's been done before :)
>>
>>
>
>I suspect Geir was on there :) That's an unusual example given the
>legal requirements of contributors.
>
>
>
>>You are right, we need to set guidelines for selecting inital
>>committers. Not sure where to start. ideas are welcome.
>>
>>
>
>The other alternative is to add all 37 to lower the barrier to entry
>and cut this back to the regular, recent contributors when it
>graduates. Normally this would be too much of a burden on infra, but
>AIUI these are mostly existing Apache committers.
>
>Another similar alternative is to add those proposed by Sybase and
>Intalio, and institute a rule that any servicemix/geronimo/WS/Agila
>committers can request access at any time during incubation.
>
>- Brett
>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com>.
On 2/18/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As far as i can remember, We started Harmony with Zero code and Zero
> committers...It's been done before :)
I suspect Geir was on there :) That's an unusual example given the
legal requirements of contributors.
> You are right, we need to set guidelines for selecting inital
> committers. Not sure where to start. ideas are welcome.
The other alternative is to add all 37 to lower the barrier to entry
and cut this back to the regular, recent contributors when it
graduates. Normally this would be too much of a burden on infra, but
AIUI these are mostly existing Apache committers.
Another similar alternative is to add those proposed by Sybase and
Intalio, and institute a rule that any servicemix/geronimo/WS/Agila
committers can request access at any time during incubation.
- Brett
Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com>.
On 2/18/06, Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As far as i can remember, We started Harmony with Zero code and Zero
> committers...It's been done before :)
I suspect Geir was on there :) That's an unusual example given the
legal requirements of contributors.
> You are right, we need to set guidelines for selecting inital
> committers. Not sure where to start. ideas are welcome.
The other alternative is to add all 37 to lower the barrier to entry
and cut this back to the regular, recent contributors when it
graduates. Normally this would be too much of a burden on infra, but
AIUI these are mostly existing Apache committers.
Another similar alternative is to add those proposed by Sybase and
Intalio, and institute a rule that any servicemix/geronimo/WS/Agila
committers can request access at any time during incubation.
- Brett
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
As far as i can remember, We started Harmony with Zero code and Zero
committers...It's been done before :)
I asked "Can we"? not "We should" :)
You are right, we need to set guidelines for selecting inital
committers. Not sure where to start. ideas are welcome.
-- dims
On 2/17/06, Guillaume Nodet <gu...@worldonline.fr> wrote:
> Sorry, I may have missed something ..
> Are you suggesting that the project start with 0 committers and that
> everyone should be brought in by submitting patches ? ;)
> What are the proposed criteria for selecting initial committers ?
>
> Cheers,
> Guillaume Nodet
>
> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>
> >Hmm...Can we apply the same criteria to *ALL* committers (including
> >those listed in the status page now?)
> >
> >One more question, Since Noel (as the PMC Chair) talked about
> >Incubator pmc sponsoring this, can we please reflect that and ask for
> >a ppmc mailing list as well?
> >
> >thanks,
> >dims
> >
> >On 2/17/06, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I've placed a tentative version of the proposal up onto the incubator site.
> >>
> >>The Software Grant has been received.
> >>
> >>There is obviously a lot of good discussion that still needs to take
> >>place. I think we should move this to the new mailing lists.
> >>
> >>I think that we need to create:
> >>
> >>- mailing lists
> >>- svn repo
> >>- jira project
> >>
> >>One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
> >>bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
> >>committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
> >>rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
> >>that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
> >>
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>Alan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
As far as i can remember, We started Harmony with Zero code and Zero
committers...It's been done before :)
I asked "Can we"? not "We should" :)
You are right, we need to set guidelines for selecting inital
committers. Not sure where to start. ideas are welcome.
-- dims
On 2/17/06, Guillaume Nodet <gu...@worldonline.fr> wrote:
> Sorry, I may have missed something ..
> Are you suggesting that the project start with 0 committers and that
> everyone should be brought in by submitting patches ? ;)
> What are the proposed criteria for selecting initial committers ?
>
> Cheers,
> Guillaume Nodet
>
> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>
> >Hmm...Can we apply the same criteria to *ALL* committers (including
> >those listed in the status page now?)
> >
> >One more question, Since Noel (as the PMC Chair) talked about
> >Incubator pmc sponsoring this, can we please reflect that and ask for
> >a ppmc mailing list as well?
> >
> >thanks,
> >dims
> >
> >On 2/17/06, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I've placed a tentative version of the proposal up onto the incubator site.
> >>
> >>The Software Grant has been received.
> >>
> >>There is obviously a lot of good discussion that still needs to take
> >>place. I think we should move this to the new mailing lists.
> >>
> >>I think that we need to create:
> >>
> >>- mailing lists
> >>- svn repo
> >>- jira project
> >>
> >>One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
> >>bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
> >>committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
> >>rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
> >>that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
> >>
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>Alan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Guillaume Nodet <gu...@worldonline.fr>.
Sorry, I may have missed something ..
Are you suggesting that the project start with 0 committers and that
everyone should be brought in by submitting patches ? ;)
What are the proposed criteria for selecting initial committers ?
Cheers,
Guillaume Nodet
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>Hmm...Can we apply the same criteria to *ALL* committers (including
>those listed in the status page now?)
>
>One more question, Since Noel (as the PMC Chair) talked about
>Incubator pmc sponsoring this, can we please reflect that and ask for
>a ppmc mailing list as well?
>
>thanks,
>dims
>
>On 2/17/06, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I've placed a tentative version of the proposal up onto the incubator site.
>>
>>The Software Grant has been received.
>>
>>There is obviously a lot of good discussion that still needs to take
>>place. I think we should move this to the new mailing lists.
>>
>>I think that we need to create:
>>
>>- mailing lists
>>- svn repo
>>- jira project
>>
>>One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
>>bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
>>committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
>>rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
>>that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>Alan
>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
>
>
>
>
Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Guillaume Nodet <gu...@worldonline.fr>.
Sorry, I may have missed something ..
Are you suggesting that the project start with 0 committers and that
everyone should be brought in by submitting patches ? ;)
What are the proposed criteria for selecting initial committers ?
Cheers,
Guillaume Nodet
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>Hmm...Can we apply the same criteria to *ALL* committers (including
>those listed in the status page now?)
>
>One more question, Since Noel (as the PMC Chair) talked about
>Incubator pmc sponsoring this, can we please reflect that and ask for
>a ppmc mailing list as well?
>
>thanks,
>dims
>
>On 2/17/06, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I've placed a tentative version of the proposal up onto the incubator site.
>>
>>The Software Grant has been received.
>>
>>There is obviously a lot of good discussion that still needs to take
>>place. I think we should move this to the new mailing lists.
>>
>>I think that we need to create:
>>
>>- mailing lists
>>- svn repo
>>- jira project
>>
>>One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
>>bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
>>committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
>>rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
>>that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>Alan
>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
>
>
>
>
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Hmm...Can we apply the same criteria to *ALL* committers (including
those listed in the status page now?)
One more question, Since Noel (as the PMC Chair) talked about
Incubator pmc sponsoring this, can we please reflect that and ask for
a ppmc mailing list as well?
thanks,
dims
On 2/17/06, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
> I've placed a tentative version of the proposal up onto the incubator site.
>
> The Software Grant has been received.
>
> There is obviously a lot of good discussion that still needs to take
> place. I think we should move this to the new mailing lists.
>
> I think that we need to create:
>
> - mailing lists
> - svn repo
> - jira project
>
> One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
> bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
> committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
> rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
> that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@gmail.com>.
Well, if we proceed only by patch submission, there won't be anybody
from Sybase or Intalio to start with. Perhaps a couple of developers
could be picked up for each product and then we'll apply the usual
meritocracy rules for the others. What do you think?
Regards,
Matthieu.
On 2/17/06, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
> I've placed a tentative version of the proposal up onto the incubator site.
>
> The Software Grant has been received.
>
> There is obviously a lot of good discussion that still needs to take
> place. I think we should move this to the new mailing lists.
>
> I think that we need to create:
>
> - mailing lists
> - svn repo
> - jira project
>
> One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
> bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
> committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
> rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
> that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Ode proposal
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
Craig McClanahan wrote, On 2/18/2006 11:46 PM:
> On 2/18/06, Berin Lautenbach <be...@wingsofhermes.org> wrote:
>
>>Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>>
>>
>>>OT: I dislike the current trend of people using +1, -1, for simple
>>>conversations. It confuses people and should be reserved for votes.
>>
>>The use of +1/-1 for conversations (as apposed to votes) is very common
>>through the ASF. I've always rather liked it personally. It's a very
>>"ASF" thing.
>
>
>
> +1. :-)
>
> What's been quite interesting is to see this convention being used in
> contexts outside the ASF as well ... the underlying message is that
> consensus building is important, plus the ability of contributors to
> consisely indicate "yes I agree" or "no, I disagree," plus the ability to
> express shades of opinion between these extremes. IMHO, that is absolutely
> the best social impact of this concept ... if you make a +1 or -1 comment,
> you have to be pretty totally commited to (or against) a particular
> approach. On the other hand, *not* expressing a +1 or -1 gives you lots of
> opportunities to build consensus in the middle, by recognizing that both
> extremes will often have perfectly valid points to have been made, and that
> compromise is a reasonable strategy.
Nicely put Craig.
Regards,
Alan
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 2/18/06, Berin Lautenbach <be...@wingsofhermes.org> wrote:
>
> Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
> > OT: I dislike the current trend of people using +1, -1, for simple
> > conversations. It confuses people and should be reserved for votes.
>
> The use of +1/-1 for conversations (as apposed to votes) is very common
> through the ASF. I've always rather liked it personally. It's a very
> "ASF" thing.
+1. :-)
What's been quite interesting is to see this convention being used in
contexts outside the ASF as well ... the underlying message is that
consensus building is important, plus the ability of contributors to
consisely indicate "yes I agree" or "no, I disagree," plus the ability to
express shades of opinion between these extremes. IMHO, that is absolutely
the best social impact of this concept ... if you make a +1 or -1 comment,
you have to be pretty totally commited to (or against) a particular
approach. On the other hand, *not* expressing a +1 or -1 gives you lots of
opportunities to build consensus in the middle, by recognizing that both
extremes will often have perfectly valid points to have been made, and that
compromise is a reasonable strategy.
Cheers,
> Berin
>
>
Craig
Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Berin Lautenbach <be...@wingsofhermes.org>.
Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> OT: I dislike the current trend of people using +1, -1, for simple
> conversations. It confuses people and should be reserved for votes.
The use of +1/-1 for conversations (as apposed to votes) is very common
through the ASF. I've always rather liked it personally. It's a very
"ASF" thing.
Cheers,
Berin
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 2/17/2006 8:12 PM, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
>On Fri, 2006-02-17 at 11:42 -0800, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>
>>One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
>>bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
>>committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
>>rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
>>that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
>>
>>
>
>-1 .. given that only a handful of the 37 committers (from Sybase and
>Intalio) have touched that code, I see one of two possible paths:
>
>- start with *just* those people as committers
>- start with everyone who wants to be a committer at this stage as
>committers
>
>The latter has been the traditional starting point for incubating
>projects. What you're proposing is some weird middlepoint which biases
>towards the few who signed up in the first few days/whatever. IMO that's
>not a good model!
>
>
OT: I dislike the current trend of people using +1, -1, for simple
conversations. It confuses people and should be reserved for votes.
With that said, I disagree with your proposal Sanjiva. It has been my
experience that on occasion corporate people who are listed w/ a
donation frequently do little or nothing to build the community or the
product. Sometimes, corporations see a donation as a quick and easy
means to get their people ASF committer karma.
I trust the mentors on this project. I trust the Incubator PMC that is
ultimately charged with the oversight of this project. In a few days,
the the ranks of the commitership will be filled with active developers.
Regards,
Alan
Regards,
Alan
Re: Ode proposal
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 2/17/2006 8:12 PM, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
>On Fri, 2006-02-17 at 11:42 -0800, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
>
>>One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
>>bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
>>committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
>>rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
>>that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
>>
>>
>
>-1 .. given that only a handful of the 37 committers (from Sybase and
>Intalio) have touched that code, I see one of two possible paths:
>
>- start with *just* those people as committers
>- start with everyone who wants to be a committer at this stage as
>committers
>
>The latter has been the traditional starting point for incubating
>projects. What you're proposing is some weird middlepoint which biases
>towards the few who signed up in the first few days/whatever. IMO that's
>not a good model!
>
>
OT: I dislike the current trend of people using +1, -1, for simple
conversations. It confuses people and should be reserved for votes.
With that said, I disagree with your proposal Sanjiva. It has been my
experience that on occasion corporate people who are listed w/ a
donation frequently do little or nothing to build the community or the
product. Sometimes, corporations see a donation as a quick and easy
means to get their people ASF committer karma.
I trust the mentors on this project. I trust the Incubator PMC that is
ultimately charged with the oversight of this project. In a few days,
the the ranks of the commitership will be filled with active developers.
Regards,
Alan
Regards,
Alan
Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Sanjiva,
Please hang on for my next email :)
-- dims
On 2/17/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-02-17 at 11:42 -0800, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> >
> > One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
> > bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
> > committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
> > rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
> > that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
>
> -1 .. given that only a handful of the 37 committers (from Sybase and
> Intalio) have touched that code, I see one of two possible paths:
>
> - start with *just* those people as committers
> - start with everyone who wants to be a committer at this stage as
> committers
>
> The latter has been the traditional starting point for incubating
> projects. What you're proposing is some weird middlepoint which biases
> towards the few who signed up in the first few days/whatever. IMO that's
> not a good model!
>
> Sanjiva.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Sanjiva,
Please hang on for my next email :)
-- dims
On 2/17/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-02-17 at 11:42 -0800, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> >
> > One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
> > bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
> > committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
> > rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
> > that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
>
> -1 .. given that only a handful of the 37 committers (from Sybase and
> Intalio) have touched that code, I see one of two possible paths:
>
> - start with *just* those people as committers
> - start with everyone who wants to be a committer at this stage as
> committers
>
> The latter has been the traditional starting point for incubating
> projects. What you're proposing is some weird middlepoint which biases
> towards the few who signed up in the first few days/whatever. IMO that's
> not a good model!
>
> Sanjiva.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Fri, 2006-02-17 at 11:42 -0800, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
> One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
> bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
> committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
> rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
> that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
-1 .. given that only a handful of the 37 committers (from Sybase and
Intalio) have touched that code, I see one of two possible paths:
- start with *just* those people as committers
- start with everyone who wants to be a committer at this stage as
committers
The latter has been the traditional starting point for incubating
projects. What you're proposing is some weird middlepoint which biases
towards the few who signed up in the first few days/whatever. IMO that's
not a good model!
Sanjiva.
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Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Fri, 2006-02-17 at 11:42 -0800, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
> One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
> bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
> committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
> rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
> that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
-1 .. given that only a handful of the 37 committers (from Sybase and
Intalio) have touched that code, I see one of two possible paths:
- start with *just* those people as committers
- start with everyone who wants to be a committer at this stage as
committers
The latter has been the traditional starting point for incubating
projects. What you're proposing is some weird middlepoint which biases
towards the few who signed up in the first few days/whatever. IMO that's
not a good model!
Sanjiva.
Re: Ode proposal
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Hmm...Can we apply the same criteria to *ALL* committers (including
those listed in the status page now?)
One more question, Since Noel (as the PMC Chair) talked about
Incubator pmc sponsoring this, can we please reflect that and ask for
a ppmc mailing list as well?
thanks,
dims
On 2/17/06, Alan D. Cabrera <li...@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
> I've placed a tentative version of the proposal up onto the incubator site.
>
> The Software Grant has been received.
>
> There is obviously a lot of good discussion that still needs to take
> place. I think we should move this to the new mailing lists.
>
> I think that we need to create:
>
> - mailing lists
> - svn repo
> - jira project
>
> One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
> bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
> committers for a total of 37 committers. I think that this list might
> rival that of Geronimo in terms of size; it seems excessive. I propose
> that people are brought in using the standard method of submitting patches.
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
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Re: Initial committers
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@gmail.com>.
Like the plan too. I'd be happy to be on the ppmc as well but am not
sure whether I have enough karma for that. Is i only opened to
Incubator PMC members for the moment?
On 2/18/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> +1 for this plan (which removes my earlier -1 .. hmm or does that make
> it a +0/-0 state? ;-)).
>
> I'll be happy to be on the PPMC.
>
> Sanjiva.
>
> IOn Fri, 2006-02-17 at 23:22 -0500, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > +1 from me Noel. I will start a VOTE for the initial bunch of
> > committers. Current PPMC consists for just the 3 mentors. (James, Geir
> > and me).
> >
> > Current Incubator PMC members, please step up and volunteer for the PPMC work.
> >
> > thanks,
> > dims
> >
> > On 2/17/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > > Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> > >
> > > > One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
> > > > bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
> > > > committers for a total of 37 committers.
> > >
> > > > it seems excessive.
> > >
> > > I agree, but we're also trying to have a relatively low barrier to help build community.
> > >
> > > We have generally agreed that existing ASF Committers who want to participate should sign up as the project is starting, and should be accepted. But as a general rule, the PPMC should be voting on committers. Again with an eye for community building. We can always drop people. And, as a reminder, Committers do not have binding votes.
> > >
> > > The initial PPMC are the Mentors (actually the whole of the Incubator PMC). I would suggest that the PPMC immediately act to add Bill Flood and Ismael to the PPMC, at a minimum. Then the PPMC can address the Committer list collectively.
> > >
> > > --- Noel
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
>
>
Re: Initial committers
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
+1 for this plan (which removes my earlier -1 .. hmm or does that make
it a +0/-0 state? ;-)).
I'll be happy to be on the PPMC.
Sanjiva.
IOn Fri, 2006-02-17 at 23:22 -0500, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> +1 from me Noel. I will start a VOTE for the initial bunch of
> committers. Current PPMC consists for just the 3 mentors. (James, Geir
> and me).
>
> Current Incubator PMC members, please step up and volunteer for the PPMC work.
>
> thanks,
> dims
>
> On 2/17/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> >
> > > One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
> > > bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
> > > committers for a total of 37 committers.
> >
> > > it seems excessive.
> >
> > I agree, but we're also trying to have a relatively low barrier to help build community.
> >
> > We have generally agreed that existing ASF Committers who want to participate should sign up as the project is starting, and should be accepted. But as a general rule, the PPMC should be voting on committers. Again with an eye for community building. We can always drop people. And, as a reminder, Committers do not have binding votes.
> >
> > The initial PPMC are the Mentors (actually the whole of the Incubator PMC). I would suggest that the PPMC immediately act to add Bill Flood and Ismael to the PPMC, at a minimum. Then the PPMC can address the Committer list collectively.
> >
> > --- Noel
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Re: Initial committers
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
+1 from me Noel. I will start a VOTE for the initial bunch of
committers. Current PPMC consists for just the 3 mentors. (James, Geir
and me).
Current Incubator PMC members, please step up and volunteer for the PPMC work.
thanks,
dims
On 2/17/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
> > One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
> > bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
> > committers for a total of 37 committers.
>
> > it seems excessive.
>
> I agree, but we're also trying to have a relatively low barrier to help build community.
>
> We have generally agreed that existing ASF Committers who want to participate should sign up as the project is starting, and should be accepted. But as a general rule, the PPMC should be voting on committers. Again with an eye for community building. We can always drop people. And, as a reminder, Committers do not have binding votes.
>
> The initial PPMC are the Mentors (actually the whole of the Incubator PMC). I would suggest that the PPMC immediately act to add Bill Flood and Ismael to the PPMC, at a minimum. Then the PPMC can address the Committer list collectively.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
Initial committers
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> One thing that should be resolved as soon as possible is how we will
> bring in new members. At the moment there are 17 proposed new
> committers for a total of 37 committers.
> it seems excessive.
I agree, but we're also trying to have a relatively low barrier to help build community.
We have generally agreed that existing ASF Committers who want to participate should sign up as the project is starting, and should be accepted. But as a general rule, the PPMC should be voting on committers. Again with an eye for community building. We can always drop people. And, as a reminder, Committers do not have binding votes.
The initial PPMC are the Mentors (actually the whole of the Incubator PMC). I would suggest that the PPMC immediately act to add Bill Flood and Ismael to the PPMC, at a minimum. Then the PPMC can address the Committer list collectively.
--- Noel