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Posted to dev@httpd.apache.org by jlwpc1 <jl...@earthlink.net> on 2000/06/01 01:33:16 UTC
Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
From: <rb...@covalent.net>
> > Are either of you signing up for taking 25 messages each
> > on comp.infosystems.www-servers.windows for a week? :-)
>
> I've done it, and yes, I've gotten sick of it. But this information is in
> the FAQ, and it's documented. If the users can't get the right answer by
> RTFM, then we aren't responsible.
>
> Ryan
>
Yes Apache is responsible. :)
Apache Windows Server is running on a computer - use it. If there is an error that can be caught and corrected while running Windows then do it.
Duh,
JLW
Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by jlwpc1 <jl...@earthlink.net>.
From: Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>
To: <ne...@apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
> On Wed, 31 May 2000, jlwpc1 wrote:
> > From: <rb...@covalent.net>
> > > > Are either of you signing up for taking 25 messages each
> > > > on comp.infosystems.www-servers.windows for a week? :-)
> > >
> > > I've done it, and yes, I've gotten sick of it. But this information is in
> > > the FAQ, and it's documented. If the users can't get the right answer by
> > > RTFM, then we aren't responsible.
> > >
> > > Ryan
> > >
> >
> > Yes Apache is responsible. :)
> >
> > Apache Windows Server is running on a computer - use it. If there is
> > an error that can be caught and corrected while running Windows then
> > do it.
> >
> > Duh,
> > JLW
>
> "Duh" ??!!
>
> Dood. There is only so much time and effort we have, and that we would
> like to expend. If somebody doesn't want to take the effort to get all the
> little niggly details of making Apache run on Windows 95, then that is
> their right. Nobody *HAS* to do anything and nobody *HAS* to make Apache
> run correctly on Windows.
>
> If we create a FAQ entry so that people can avoid shortcomings in the
> code, yet they fail to use it. Too bad for them. I'm definitely with Ryan
> on that.
>
> If you don't like the behavior of Apache on Windows, then fix it yourself.
> But don't you dare say that we *HAVE* to do it, and don't start saying
> "Duh" to us like it is some great revelation or understanding that you
> have and we don't.
>
> -g
>
Silly me, but wasn't OtherBill fixing this in the first place?
Duh,
JLW
Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Wed, 31 May 2000, jlwpc1 wrote:
> From: <rb...@covalent.net>
> > > Are either of you signing up for taking 25 messages each
> > > on comp.infosystems.www-servers.windows for a week? :-)
> >
> > I've done it, and yes, I've gotten sick of it. But this information is in
> > the FAQ, and it's documented. If the users can't get the right answer by
> > RTFM, then we aren't responsible.
> >
> > Ryan
> >
>
> Yes Apache is responsible. :)
>
> Apache Windows Server is running on a computer - use it. If there is
> an error that can be caught and corrected while running Windows then
> do it.
>
> Duh,
> JLW
"Duh" ??!!
Dood. There is only so much time and effort we have, and that we would
like to expend. If somebody doesn't want to take the effort to get all the
little niggly details of making Apache run on Windows 95, then that is
their right. Nobody *HAS* to do anything and nobody *HAS* to make Apache
run correctly on Windows.
If we create a FAQ entry so that people can avoid shortcomings in the
code, yet they fail to use it. Too bad for them. I'm definitely with Ryan
on that.
If you don't like the behavior of Apache on Windows, then fix it yourself.
But don't you dare say that we *HAVE* to do it, and don't start saying
"Duh" to us like it is some great revelation or understanding that you
have and we don't.
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
RE: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@lnd.com>.
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 11:37 AM
>
> "William A. Rowe, Jr." wrote:
> >
> > > I'd still like to see the "ServerName 127.0.0.1" stay, augmented
> > > by a "<VirtualHost _default_>" container to make it work outside
> > > the local host. Anyone see any problems with that?
> >
> > What did we mean here? It will pick up their real server IP, so I
> > assume this is mute?
>
> I mean that if we ever set the servername to 127.0.0.1, the only
> time it will process requests is if they come from the same
> system. By adding a _default_ vhost we can allow it to process
> requests from off-box in that situation.
Could you submit the desired patch? I'm still a bit unclear, if we
cannot resolve the ServerName, how the server will continue to
function for external requests? I'm all ears :)
RE: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@lnd.com>.
Agreed, it can get confusing... here's the relevant part:
#
# Apache Modules compiled into the standard Windows build
#
# The following modules are bound into the standard Apache binary distribution
# for Windows. To change the standard behavior, uncomment the following lines
# and modify the list of those specific modules to be enabled in the server.
#
# WARNING: This is an advanced option that may render your server inoperable!
# Do not use these directives without expert guidance.
#
#ClearModuleList
#AddModule mod_so.c mod_mime.c mod_access.c mod_auth.c mod_negotiation.c
#AddModule mod_include.c mod_autoindex.c mod_dir.c mod_cgi.c mod_userdir.c
#AddModule mod_alias.c mod_env.c mod_log_config.c mod_asis.c mod_imap.c
#AddModule mod_actions.c mod_setenvif.c mod_isapi.c
If we feel this is not forboding enough - I'm 100% open to pulling
it back out of httpd.conf-dist-win!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 11:37 AM
> To: new-httpd@apache.org
> Subject: Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
>
>
> "William A. Rowe, Jr." wrote:
> >
> > > I'd still like to see the "ServerName 127.0.0.1" stay, augmented
> > > by a "<VirtualHost _default_>" container to make it work outside
> > > the local host. Anyone see any problems with that?
> >
> > What did we mean here? It will pick up their real server IP, so I
> > assume this is mute?
>
> I mean that if we ever set the servername to 127.0.0.1, the only
> time it will process requests is if they come from the same
> system. By adding a _default_ vhost we can allow it to process
> requests from off-box in that situation.
>
> I would like the Windows and Unix .conf files to be as similar
> as possible. I went round and round over a couple of days with
> someone who told me it did a vanilla install, but there wasn't
> any ClearModuleList directive. It turned out that it was on
> Windows, which it failed to mention.
> --
> #ken P-)}
>
> Ken Coar <http://Golux.Com/coar/>
> Apache Software Foundation <http://www.apache.org/>
> "Apache Server for Dummies" <http://Apache-Server.Com/>
> "Apache Server Unleashed" <http://ApacheUnleashed.Com/>
>
Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
"William A. Rowe, Jr." wrote:
>
> > I'd still like to see the "ServerName 127.0.0.1" stay, augmented
> > by a "<VirtualHost _default_>" container to make it work outside
> > the local host. Anyone see any problems with that?
>
> What did we mean here? It will pick up their real server IP, so I
> assume this is mute?
I mean that if we ever set the servername to 127.0.0.1, the only
time it will process requests is if they come from the same
system. By adding a _default_ vhost we can allow it to process
requests from off-box in that situation.
I would like the Windows and Unix .conf files to be as similar
as possible. I went round and round over a couple of days with
someone who told me it did a vanilla install, but there wasn't
any ClearModuleList directive. It turned out that it was on
Windows, which it failed to mention.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar <http://Golux.Com/coar/>
Apache Software Foundation <http://www.apache.org/>
"Apache Server for Dummies" <http://Apache-Server.Com/>
"Apache Server Unleashed" <http://ApacheUnleashed.Com/>
RE: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@lnd.com>.
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 10:13 AM
>
> "William A. Rowe, Jr." wrote:
> >
> > > Unfortunately, part of the problem is that the error string is
> > > typically displayed in a DOS window that disappears instantly.
> >
> > Ahhh... that's the nail, you hit it right on the head.
> >
> > One of my fixes to 1.3.13 before it flies out the door has to
> > be to prevent the console from closing until the user sees the
> > message. The only time we _can't_ do this is when they start
> > a WinNT service (no console, ever)...
>
> No, it throws that wondrously meaningful "Error 1067" error
> alert. Is there any way we can hack into the text of that
> alert box?
So I think I covered both issues in the last patch... Your comments
on that patch (even in concept-only) would be helpful.
> I'd still like to see the "ServerName 127.0.0.1" stay, augmented
> by a "<VirtualHost _default_>" container to make it work outside
> the local host. Anyone see any problems with that?
What did we mean here? It will pick up their real server IP, so I
assume this is mute? I realize we need to go back and address two
complaints, the lack of --ntservice docs and the message blatted
at the user for their missing ServerName. I just threw them in
showstoppers.
> BTW, judging by some of the reports that have come my way,
> there is once more a major dichotomy between the httpd.conf
> files on Windows and Unix. For one thing, the latter contain
> the LoadModule/ClearModuleList/AddModule sequence, whilst the
> former only have the LoadModule section. Or am I smoking something?
Since Win32 users really don't know how to build their own binaries,
I figured the example of what is explicitly linked would be good, no?
The main dist-conf really is subject to compiler options we don't
offer on Win32 (it's really all or nothing.) Do you see this as an
issue yet and still? To fix it under Unix would be a dynamic file
listing what is built in, showing them (commented out) as AddModule
diretives. Does anyone have an issue with the httpd.conf-dist-win
example on this?
Bill
Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
"William A. Rowe, Jr." wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately, part of the problem is that the error string is
> > typically displayed in a DOS window that disappears instantly.
>
> Ahhh... that's the nail, you hit it right on the head.
>
> One of my fixes to 1.3.13 before it flies out the door has to
> be to prevent the console from closing until the user sees the
> message. The only time we _can't_ do this is when they start
> a WinNT service (no console, ever)...
No, it throws that wondrously meaningful "Error 1067" error
alert. Is there any way we can hack into the text of that
alert box?
I'd still like to see the "ServerName 127.0.0.1" stay, augmented
by a "<VirtualHost _default_>" container to make it work outside
the local host. Anyone see any problems with that?
BTW, judging by some of the reports that have come my way,
there is once more a major dichotomy between the httpd.conf
files on Windows and Unix. For one thing, the latter contain
the LoadModule/ClearModuleList/AddModule sequence, whilst the
former only have the LoadModule section. Or am I smoking something?
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar <http://Golux.Com/coar/>
Apache Software Foundation <http://www.apache.org/>
"Apache Server for Dummies" <http://Apache-Server.Com/>
"Apache Server Unleashed" <http://ApacheUnleashed.Com/>
Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by jlwpc1 <jl...@earthlink.net>.
----- Original Message -----
From: William A. Rowe, Jr. <wr...@lnd.com>
To: <ne...@apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 9:45 AM
Subject: RE: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
> > From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 8:56 AM
> >
> > rbb@covalent.net wrote:
> > >
> > > And no, if the user can't or won't read the manual and error
> > > string and FAQ and newsgroup, we aren't responsible.
> >
> > Unfortunately, part of the problem is that the error string is
> > typically displayed in a DOS window that disappears instantly.
>
> Ahhh... that's the nail, you hit it right on the head.
>
> One of my fixes to 1.3.13 before it flies out the door has to
> be to prevent the console from closing until the user sees the
> message. The only time we _can't_ do this is when they start
> a WinNT service (no console, ever)...
>
> We can work that out for 2.0 before the release version to at
> least throw up one of those god-awful message popups with a
> detailed description of why the server didn't start (it's a
> hack to http_logs, but I'll toss the implementation to another
> function).
>
> But if they are a brainiac who's installed a service and knows
> how to stop and start it, they aught to be able to find and
> read an error log :-)
>
What is the reason for having a Windows computer - to do it for you.
You are on Windows - use the force!
That is what those MessageBox()es are for. Why quit and say look at the error log(you do give the exact location for the user here and tell them how to "view it" or maybe you even pop up the Windows Event Log or Apache error log so the user can see it at the same time)? :)
The computer "knows" what the error is and the computer can even ask the user (I know new thoughts for Unix users) and then do it or quit via the users actions. Just image it - a computer that follows the users wishes! :)
Gosh, why can't you start Windows Apache and ask the user for _everything_ ? :)
Or use radio button. :) Edit boxes. :) Oh here we are back to language issues - use the Windows local setup. Apache comes in many languages in files ready to go in Windows.
Oh and be sure in the source code to put in those nice _blank functions_ for the Unix sections! :)
Let's see is it, APR_HAS_MULTI_LANG and APR_HAS_MESSAGEBOX and APR_HAS_SELECT_RADIO_BUTTON_ONE and APR_HAS_ASK_USER and so on. :)
Remember, think Windows (how can I make it easier for the user - reacting to events/msgs in the program).
You guys/gals make life hard - why? :)
Yea, computers are FUN.
JLW
RE: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@lnd.com>.
> From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:Ken.Coar@Golux.Com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 8:56 AM
>
> rbb@covalent.net wrote:
> >
> > And no, if the user can't or won't read the manual and error
> > string and FAQ and newsgroup, we aren't responsible.
>
> Unfortunately, part of the problem is that the error string is
> typically displayed in a DOS window that disappears instantly.
Ahhh... that's the nail, you hit it right on the head.
One of my fixes to 1.3.13 before it flies out the door has to
be to prevent the console from closing until the user sees the
message. The only time we _can't_ do this is when they start
a WinNT service (no console, ever)...
We can work that out for 2.0 before the release version to at
least throw up one of those god-awful message popups with a
detailed description of why the server didn't start (it's a
hack to http_logs, but I'll toss the implementation to another
function).
But if they are a brainiac who's installed a service and knows
how to stop and start it, they aught to be able to find and
read an error log :-)
> From: rbb@covalent.net [mailto:rbb@covalent.net]
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 9:37 AM
>
> But OtherBill has posted a patch that keeps that windows from
> closing, so I think this problem goes away.
Not yet, but it's on the short list :)
Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by jlwpc1 <jl...@earthlink.net>.
----- Original Message -----
From: <rb...@covalent.net>
To: <ne...@apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
>
> > > And no, if the user can't or won't read the manual and error
> > > string and FAQ and newsgroup, we aren't responsible.
> >
> > Unfortunately, part of the problem is that the error string is
> > typically displayed in a DOS window that disappears instantly.
>
> But OtherBill has posted a patch that keeps that windows from closing, so
> I think this problem goes away.
>
Nope. You must have never worked "user" support lines before. :)
Apache knows what the "user" problem is.
Apache knows how to "fix it" in _many_ ways.
Example:
If Apache pops up a MessageBoxW() (Unicode of course) saying change server.name line #123 to 127.xxxxx and please check your hosts file, etc, then why not have the computer do it on the okay button or just plain do it, after checking for standalone features.
If Apache is later restarted and standalone features fail - re-adjust. Silly me it just is a computer - use it.
Example:
After Apache tries to start after the third time - just do it.
Example:
Ask the user - re-act.
Example:
Whoops ask in what language? No problem for Windows - use local version. Apache does put all text in a seperate file, right?
So what is the real Unix Apache problem here? :)
JLW
Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by rb...@covalent.net.
> > And no, if the user can't or won't read the manual and error
> > string and FAQ and newsgroup, we aren't responsible.
>
> Unfortunately, part of the problem is that the error string is
> typically displayed in a DOS window that disappears instantly.
But OtherBill has posted a patch that keeps that windows from closing, so
I think this problem goes away.
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
406 29th St.
San Francisco, CA 94131
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
rbb@covalent.net wrote:
>
> And no, if the user can't or won't read the manual and error
> string and FAQ and newsgroup, we aren't responsible.
Unfortunately, part of the problem is that the error string is
typically displayed in a DOS window that disappears instantly.
I think the "ServerName 127.0.0.1" is perfectly reasonable --
IFF coupled with another mod that adds a "<VirtualHost _default_>"
container so that the server is usable by all its other names as well.
A sub-optimal solution to be sure, but not the gross hack some
have been declaiming it to be -- just an incomplete hack.
Bill at least did something to stem the flood. FWIW, I get about
fifty of these lame messages a week.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar <http://Golux.Com/coar/>
Apache Software Foundation <http://www.apache.org/>
"Apache Server for Dummies" <http://Apache-Server.Com/>
"Apache Server Unleashed" <http://ApacheUnleashed.Com/>
Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by rb...@covalent.net.
> > > Are either of you signing up for taking 25 messages each
> > > on comp.infosystems.www-servers.windows for a week? :-)
> >
> > I've done it, and yes, I've gotten sick of it. But this information is in
> > the FAQ, and it's documented. If the users can't get the right answer by
> > RTFM, then we aren't responsible.
> >
> > Ryan
> >
>
> Yes Apache is responsible. :)
>
> Apache Windows Server is running on a computer - use it. If there is an error that can be caught and corrected while running Windows then do it.
But the fix that was committed didn't check to see if the error could be
caught on Windows, it used a brain-dead default on all platforms.
And no, if the user can't or won't read the manual and error string and
FAQ and newsgroup, we aren't responsible. If I open a new package, and it
doesn't work properly and I can't figure out how to make it work, I turn
to the manual, assuming this is a common problem. I expect nothing less
out of people trying to run a web server.
Ryan
_______________________________________________________________________________
Ryan Bloom rbb@apache.org
406 29th St.
San Francisco, CA 94131
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
jlwpc1 wrote:
>
> Apache needs more research - life changes - Apache server is not
> for "techs only" any more, in fact most downloads are from
> _non-techs_ for most OSes.
And on what data are you basing this rather wild claim?
Not that it matters, because you clearly don't understand what
Apache is. It is *not* a product we make for some vast ill-defined
user base. It's something we do for *ourselves*. If that user
base benefits, cool -- but that's a side-effect. Go re-read Roy's
recent message on this.
> Software used to be based on what does the user want to do, not
> what the programmer says a user must do.
Once again, that's a commercial viewpoint, and not relevant to Apache.
> Silly me, I used to wonder why everyday people hate computers so
> much, I wonder if this programming logic of most developers today
> is why? :)
Possibly because people mis-set their own expectations?
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar <http://Golux.Com/coar/>
Apache Software Foundation <http://www.apache.org/>
"Apache Server for Dummies" <http://Apache-Server.Com/>
"Apache Server Unleashed" <http://ApacheUnleashed.Com/>
Re: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by jlwpc1 <jl...@earthlink.net>.
From: William A. Rowe, Jr. <wr...@lnd.com>
To: <ne...@apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 8:27 PM
Subject: RE: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
> > From: jlwpc1 [mailto:jlwpc1@earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 6:33 PM
> >
> > From: <rb...@covalent.net>
> >
> > > > Are either of you signing up for taking 25 messages each
> > > > on comp.infosystems.www-servers.windows for a week? :-)
> > >
> > > I've done it, and yes, I've gotten sick of it. But this
> > information is in
> > > the FAQ, and it's documented. If the users can't get the
> > right answer by
> > > RTFM, then we aren't responsible.
> > >
> > > Ryan
> > >
> >
> > Yes Apache is responsible. :)
> >
> > Apache Windows Server is running on a computer - use it. If
> > there is an error that can be caught and corrected while
> > running Windows then do it.
>
> But not necessarily with the quick hack - one kind of error
> in place of another kind of error.
>
> We are not asking too much (but certainly expecting too much)
> for the admin to read the FAQ.
>
> I stand by Ryan here - if we sufficiently document what the
> user aught to do in a way they can follow (it's the first
> step - they aren't rocket scientists just yet :)
>
Apache needs more research - life changes - Apache server is not for "techs only" any more, in fact most downloads are from _non-techs_ for most OSes.
Most downloads of Apache Windows Servers are users period, who want to "learn" how to do "something" besides running the server. Windows users load and start "something" but if nothing starts and doesn't "display why", well, you know the _non-tech_ story. It is only after most Window programs are up and running, only then will the users desires to learn grows. It is a simple computer "correct yourself" fix, based on the _general_ user of the product.
Software used to be based on what does the user want to do, not what the programmer says a user must do.
Silly me, I used to wonder why everyday people hate computers so much, I wonder if this programming logic of most developers today is why? :)
JLW
RE: cvs commit: apache-1.3/src CHANGES
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@lnd.com>.
> From: jlwpc1 [mailto:jlwpc1@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 6:33 PM
>
> From: <rb...@covalent.net>
>
> > > Are either of you signing up for taking 25 messages each
> > > on comp.infosystems.www-servers.windows for a week? :-)
> >
> > I've done it, and yes, I've gotten sick of it. But this
> information is in
> > the FAQ, and it's documented. If the users can't get the
> right answer by
> > RTFM, then we aren't responsible.
> >
> > Ryan
> >
>
> Yes Apache is responsible. :)
>
> Apache Windows Server is running on a computer - use it. If
> there is an error that can be caught and corrected while
> running Windows then do it.
But not necessarily with the quick hack - one kind of error
in place of another kind of error.
We are not asking too much (but certainly expecting too much)
for the admin to read the FAQ.
I stand by Ryan here - if we sufficiently document what the
user aught to do in a way they can follow (it's the first
step - they aren't rocket scientists just yet :)