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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net> on 2011/06/17 01:00:22 UTC
User facing web items
I have seen references to "user facing" web items, web pages, wiki and
mailing list. What will happen to the forum at
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ ? It is an very useful
user facing asset that I would hate to see lost. If it is transfered
what will be require from those that provide assistance there? Will the
moderators be required to committers? Thus requiring an iCLA?
There were at least two moderators from the forum listed in the Initial
Committers list but I have not seen any post or questions related to
this and I would like to be able to pass on if they need to add
themselves to this list.
Andy
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net>.
Dave Fisher wrote:
>
> On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:59 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
>
>> On 17 June 2011 00:00, Andy Brown<an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
>>> I have seen references to "user facing" web items, web pages, wiki and
>>> mailing list. What will happen to the forum at
>>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ ? It is an very useful user
>>> facing asset that I would hate to see lost. If it is transfered what will
>>> be require from those that provide assistance there? Will the moderators be
>>> required to committers? Thus requiring an iCLA?
>>
>> There are many other things to consider in this question:
>>
>> - will infra@ be willing to host an instance of the software
>> - can we migrate the content?
>> - is it under a suitable licence to allow migration
>> - is the forum approach the right solution today
>> - and many more issues
>
> Gavin McDonald on infrastructure was asking about this. He said it would fall to him. Someone who know will have to give him details.
>
> I know that Japan is currently dependent on an openoffice.org hosted forum(s?).
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
This forum is on Oracle servers. The forum runs on phpBB. I will ask
some questions and see what I can find out or see if the admin can help
out here.
Andy
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:59 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> On 17 June 2011 00:00, Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
>> I have seen references to "user facing" web items, web pages, wiki and
>> mailing list. What will happen to the forum at
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ ? It is an very useful user
>> facing asset that I would hate to see lost. If it is transfered what will
>> be require from those that provide assistance there? Will the moderators be
>> required to committers? Thus requiring an iCLA?
>
> There are many other things to consider in this question:
>
> - will infra@ be willing to host an instance of the software
> - can we migrate the content?
> - is it under a suitable licence to allow migration
> - is the forum approach the right solution today
> - and many more issues
Gavin McDonald on infrastructure was asking about this. He said it would fall to him. Someone who know will have to give him details.
I know that Japan is currently dependent on an openoffice.org hosted forum(s?).
Regards,
Dave
>
> Ross
>
> --
> Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
> Programme Leader (Open Development)
> OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
Re: User facing web items
Posted by "Manfred A. Reiter" <ma...@gmail.com>.
Hii
2011/6/18 Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>:
> Rob Weir wrote:
>> IMHO, I'd like to see the user forums become part of the project. I
>> think user support is traditionally a function of an Apache project.
>> Although it is most commonly done with a user list, that is just an
>> implementation detail, not the essence of the function. Since OOo has
>> so many users, the list would never scale. The traffic would be too
>> heavy and would make it useless for users. So an Apache hosted phpBB
>> instance makes the most sense to me.
>
> I agree. It wouldn't make sense to lose the forums, that are a very
> important resource for end-users and one of the few resources that are
> still shared by OpenOffice.org and all derivatives (as the header says,
> they support OpenOffice.org, LibreOffice, StarOffice, and NeoOffice).
> And should continue to be an official part of the project, so hosted at
> Apache if at all possible.
>
is it possible to transfer the OOo user-Email ( not only the english
one ) content as well?
M.
Re: User facing web items
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 18:25 +0200, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> Rob Weir wrote:
> > IMHO, I'd like to see the user forums become part of the project. I
> > think user support is traditionally a function of an Apache project.
> > Although it is most commonly done with a user list, that is just an
> > implementation detail, not the essence of the function. Since OOo has
> > so many users, the list would never scale. The traffic would be too
> > heavy and would make it useless for users. So an Apache hosted phpBB
> > instance makes the most sense to me.
>
> I agree. It wouldn't make sense to lose the forums, that are a very
> important resource for end-users
+1
I would also add however, that when looking at delivering end user
support to a user base that runs the gambit from, those that have the
least amongst us, to governmental agencies - no one size will fit all.
//drew
Re: [OT] Re: User facing web items
Posted by Reizinger Zoltán <zr...@hdsnet.hu>.
Hi Eric,
2011.06.18. 19:36 keltezéssel, eric b írta:
> Hi,
>
>
> Le 18 juin 11 à 18:55, Reizinger Zoltán a écrit :
>
>> Hi Eric,
>> 2011.06.18. 18:33 keltezéssel, eric b írta:
>>> OOops, sorry, should read:
>>> "Can someone explain why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are missing in this
>>> list ?" Regards,,
>>> Eric Bachard
>>>
>> I think you ask it on wrong place, as you a member of user forum
>> never posted such question.
>>
>
> Well, when I try to create a login on those forum, my mail is refused.
> Tested from several machines, several login names.
>
> And since some (most ?) of the people managing forum joined the list,
> and are reading, I ask ;-)
If you are the user ericb who promote OOo4Kids in EN user forum, you can
ask this on forum, you registered in Dec 2007, your last post today 10:55.
Regards,
Zoltan
>
>
> Regards,
> Eric Bachard
>
>
[OT] Re: User facing web items
Posted by eric b <er...@free.fr>.
Hi,
Le 18 juin 11 à 18:55, Reizinger Zoltán a écrit :
> Hi Eric,
> 2011.06.18. 18:33 keltezéssel, eric b írta:
>> OOops, sorry, should read:
>> "Can someone explain why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are missing in this
>> list ?" Regards,,
>> Eric Bachard
>>
> I think you ask it on wrong place, as you a member of user forum
> never posted such question.
>
Well, when I try to create a login on those forum, my mail is
refused. Tested from several machines, several login names.
And since some (most ?) of the people managing forum joined the list,
and are reading, I ask ;-)
Regards,
Eric Bachard
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>.
eric b wrote:
> As you can see, OpenOffice.org forks are "selectively" supported,
> what is not normal, and not the Apache spirit.
Well, as Drew explained I don't think there is a reason why OOo4Kids and
OOoLight are not explicitly named, and as a moderator of the Italian
forum surely I would answer general questions related to OOo4Kids and
OOoLight too, or when I don't know enough I would escalate them to an
Italian community member involved in those projects.
Regards,
Andrea.
Re: User facing web items
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
Hello Eric,
Well, for those that don't know - a while back I offered to run a site
for the educoo project educoo.us.
I registered it, started it and for reasons that have nothing to do with
Eric or anyone beyond myself and my own problems totally failed to
maintain it - well beyond any point of fairness to them.
I screwed them over pretty good in other words.
To Eric, and the rest of the good folks in your project:
You have my apology for that.
I can't undue history unfortunately. The domain has been redirecting to
your main site for a while and as I said in a private email to you a
while back I will most happily transfer it to anyone you like.
As for the OO.o forums - IIRC correctly, you and I had conversations
specifically about setting up forums, at the time you had forums on the
main educoo.org site and wanted to keep them there.
As to the two product names not being in the header string on the OO.o
forum, I don't think there is any reason.
However I just posted a note to the administrative board at the en site
asking if people would have a problem dong so, I doubt they will. With
regards to your creating an account, there are at times problems with
some mail service providers in France - the folks at the forums would
I'm sure be happy to work through any issue with you.
Lastly - you all have a chance here to create something new, not just
recreate the old, but often (almost always) to get to someplace new you
have to first being willing to let go of the old.
Best wishes,
Drew Jensen
Re: User facing web items
Posted by eric b <er...@free.fr>.
Hi Ross,
Le 18 juin 11 à 19:21, Ross Gardler a écrit :
> Sent from my mobile device (so please excuse typos)
>>>
>> I think you ask it on wrong place, as you a member of user forum
>> never posted such question.
>> Please ask it on EN user forum.
>
> But should they be on the Apache use support resources? They are
> missing from the Oracle one, they don't have to be missing here.
As you can see, OpenOffice.org forks are "selectively" supported,
what is not normal, and not the Apache spirit.
So I'd would to vote -1 (non binding, of course )
Regards,
Eric Bachard
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
Sent from my mobile device (so please excuse typos)
On 18 Jun 2011, at 17:55, Reizinger Zoltán <zr...@hdsnet.hu> wrote:
> Hi Eric,
> 2011.06.18. 18:33 keltezéssel, eric b írta:
>> OOops, sorry, should read:
>>
>> "Can someone explain why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are missing in this list ?"
>>
>>
>> Regards,,
>> Eric Bachard
>>
> I think you ask it on wrong place, as you a member of user forum never posted such question.
>
> Please ask it on EN user forum.
>
But should they be on the Apache use support resources? They are missing from the Oracle one, they don't have to be missing here.
Ross
> Zoltan
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Reizinger Zoltán <zr...@hdsnet.hu>.
Hi Eric,
2011.06.18. 18:33 keltezéssel, eric b írta:
> OOops, sorry, should read:
>
> "Can someone explain why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are missing in this
> list ?"
>
>
> Regards,,
> Eric Bachard
>
I think you ask it on wrong place, as you a member of user forum never
posted such question.
Please ask it on EN user forum.
Zoltan
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 18 June 2011 19:31, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> On Jun 18, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
>
>> Sent from my mobile device (so please excuse typos)
>>
>> On 18 Jun 2011, at 18:34, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Ross,
>>>
>>> Drew had a long description. If that gives you any clarity.
>>
>> It does now I've read it more carefully, thanks (and to Drew)
>>
>>>
>>>> Can you please clarify the legal status of the content on the forums?
>>>
>>> This is apparently the license: http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
>>
>> I think this ought to be discussed on legal-discuss, specifically 3a which indicates "some materials" may be under terms different to these, and 4c which gives a right to sublicence but not a copyright grant, thus we can't relicence. 4e indicates that some "projects" might be under different terms requiring a CLA.
>>
>> As ever (for me) reading the T&Cs give me more questions than answers.
>
> Me too! So, who should take it to legal-discuss? Sam? Someone from the PPMC?
Someone from the PPMC (but before someone does that see my later reply
to Joe in this thread).
For information Sam is VP Legal but he does not where that hat on this
list. If you want him to speak as VP Legal we need to engage him where
he has the backing of the legal committee (which includes real
lawyers).
Ross
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Jun 18, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Sent from my mobile device (so please excuse typos)
>
> On 18 Jun 2011, at 18:34, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Ross,
>>
>> Drew had a long description. If that gives you any clarity.
>
> It does now I've read it more carefully, thanks (and to Drew)
>
>>
>>> Can you please clarify the legal status of the content on the forums?
>>
>> This is apparently the license: http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
>
> I think this ought to be discussed on legal-discuss, specifically 3a which indicates "some materials" may be under terms different to these, and 4c which gives a right to sublicence but not a copyright grant, thus we can't relicence. 4e indicates that some "projects" might be under different terms requiring a CLA.
>
> As ever (for me) reading the T&Cs give me more questions than answers.
Me too! So, who should take it to legal-discuss? Sam? Someone from the PPMC?
I want to do technical and organizational work, licenses can make my head explode.
Regards,
Dave
>
> Ross
>
>
>>
>> Here is what Zoltan wrote:
>>
>> On Jun 18, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Reizinger Zoltán wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Andy,
>>>
>>> 2011.06.18. 15:46 keltezéssel, Andy Brown írta:
>>>> Hi Zoltan,
>>
>> snip.
>>
>>>>
>>>> Good to see you here. :) Terry and I have been in contact an he corrected me on his role as Admin. He also told me that the license for the Forums is Copyleft which, if I understand correctly will prevent them from being on ASF servers. If they are part of the grant then I guess that could change. I am looking as some alternate options in case ASF can not host the forums.
>>> The forums have link to the terms of use: http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
>>> This link was on all the time while the forum runs.
>>> For my best knowledge, never was problem wit that.
>>>
>>> Now it is contain ASF 2.0 license for codes, I see no problems to licensing.
>>> Usually no source codes submitted to forums.
>>>
>>> Zoltan
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>>
>>> We've been told code is Apache licensed, but what about the content?
>>>
>>> This same question applies to the content on the user mail lists (asked about elsewhere in this thread).
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Ross
>>>
>>> Sent from my mobile device (so please excuse typos)
>>>
>>> On 18 Jun 2011, at 18:14, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 18, 2011, at 9:33 AM, eric b wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> OOops, sorry, should read:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Can someone explain why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are missing in this list ?"
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the reminder.
>>>>
>>>> As for explanations the Apache podling and committers are still getting organized. The project website is just there and we had our first commits in our SVN repos just last night - the website. We are waiting on Wikis. Haven't decided on Bugzilla vs. JIRA ...
>>>>
>>>> Keep watching and tell use what you need. "Patches are welcome", but we don't have much to patch yet.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,,
>>>>> Eric Bachard
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> qɔᴉɹə
>>>>> Education Project:
>>>>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
>>>>> Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
>>>>> L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
>>>>> Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
Sent from my mobile device (so please excuse typos)
On 18 Jun 2011, at 18:34, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Ross,
>
> Drew had a long description. If that gives you any clarity.
It does now I've read it more carefully, thanks (and to Drew)
>
>> Can you please clarify the legal status of the content on the forums?
>
> This is apparently the license: http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
I think this ought to be discussed on legal-discuss, specifically 3a which indicates "some materials" may be under terms different to these, and 4c which gives a right to sublicence but not a copyright grant, thus we can't relicence. 4e indicates that some "projects" might be under different terms requiring a CLA.
As ever (for me) reading the T&Cs give me more questions than answers.
Ross
>
> Here is what Zoltan wrote:
>
> On Jun 18, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Reizinger Zoltán wrote:
>
>> Hi Andy,
>>
>> 2011.06.18. 15:46 keltezéssel, Andy Brown írta:
>>> Hi Zoltan,
>
> snip.
>
>>>
>>> Good to see you here. :) Terry and I have been in contact an he corrected me on his role as Admin. He also told me that the license for the Forums is Copyleft which, if I understand correctly will prevent them from being on ASF servers. If they are part of the grant then I guess that could change. I am looking as some alternate options in case ASF can not host the forums.
>> The forums have link to the terms of use: http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
>> This link was on all the time while the forum runs.
>> For my best knowledge, never was problem wit that.
>>
>> Now it is contain ASF 2.0 license for codes, I see no problems to licensing.
>> Usually no source codes submitted to forums.
>>
>> Zoltan
>
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>> We've been told code is Apache licensed, but what about the content?
>>
>> This same question applies to the content on the user mail lists (asked about elsewhere in this thread).
>
>
>>
>> Ross
>>
>> Sent from my mobile device (so please excuse typos)
>>
>> On 18 Jun 2011, at 18:14, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 18, 2011, at 9:33 AM, eric b wrote:
>>>
>>>> OOops, sorry, should read:
>>>>
>>>> "Can someone explain why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are missing in this list ?"
>>>
>>> Thanks for the reminder.
>>>
>>> As for explanations the Apache podling and committers are still getting organized. The project website is just there and we had our first commits in our SVN repos just last night - the website. We are waiting on Wikis. Haven't decided on Bugzilla vs. JIRA ...
>>>
>>> Keep watching and tell use what you need. "Patches are welcome", but we don't have much to patch yet.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,,
>>>> Eric Bachard
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> qɔᴉɹə
>>>> Education Project:
>>>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
>>>> Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
>>>> L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
>>>> Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
Ross,
Drew had a long description. If that gives you any clarity.
> Can you please clarify the legal status of the content on the forums?
This is apparently the license: http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
Here is what Zoltan wrote:
On Jun 18, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Reizinger Zoltán wrote:
> Hi Andy,
>
> 2011.06.18. 15:46 keltezéssel, Andy Brown írta:
>> Hi Zoltan,
snip.
>>
>> Good to see you here. :) Terry and I have been in contact an he corrected me on his role as Admin. He also told me that the license for the Forums is Copyleft which, if I understand correctly will prevent them from being on ASF servers. If they are part of the grant then I guess that could change. I am looking as some alternate options in case ASF can not host the forums.
> The forums have link to the terms of use: http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
> This link was on all the time while the forum runs.
> For my best knowledge, never was problem wit that.
>
> Now it is contain ASF 2.0 license for codes, I see no problems to licensing.
> Usually no source codes submitted to forums.
>
> Zoltan
Regards,
Dave
> We've been told code is Apache licensed, but what about the content?
>
> This same question applies to the content on the user mail lists (asked about elsewhere in this thread).
>
> Ross
>
> Sent from my mobile device (so please excuse typos)
>
> On 18 Jun 2011, at 18:14, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 18, 2011, at 9:33 AM, eric b wrote:
>>
>>> OOops, sorry, should read:
>>>
>>> "Can someone explain why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are missing in this list ?"
>>
>> Thanks for the reminder.
>>
>> As for explanations the Apache podling and committers are still getting organized. The project website is just there and we had our first commits in our SVN repos just last night - the website. We are waiting on Wikis. Haven't decided on Bugzilla vs. JIRA ...
>>
>> Keep watching and tell use what you need. "Patches are welcome", but we don't have much to patch yet.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,,
>>> Eric Bachard
>>>
>>> --
>>> qɔᴉɹə
>>> Education Project:
>>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
>>> Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
>>> L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
>>> Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
Can you please clarify the legal status of the content on the forums?
We've been told code is Apache licensed, but what about the content?
This same question applies to the content on the user mail lists (asked about elsewhere in this thread).
Ross
Sent from my mobile device (so please excuse typos)
On 18 Jun 2011, at 18:14, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> On Jun 18, 2011, at 9:33 AM, eric b wrote:
>
>> OOops, sorry, should read:
>>
>> "Can someone explain why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are missing in this list ?"
>
> Thanks for the reminder.
>
> As for explanations the Apache podling and committers are still getting organized. The project website is just there and we had our first commits in our SVN repos just last night - the website. We are waiting on Wikis. Haven't decided on Bugzilla vs. JIRA ...
>
> Keep watching and tell use what you need. "Patches are welcome", but we don't have much to patch yet.
>
> Best Regards,
> Dave
>
>
>>
>>
>> Regards,,
>> Eric Bachard
>>
>> --
>> qɔᴉɹə
>> Education Project:
>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
>> Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
>> L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
>> Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Jun 18, 2011, at 9:33 AM, eric b wrote:
> OOops, sorry, should read:
>
> "Can someone explain why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are missing in this list ?"
Thanks for the reminder.
As for explanations the Apache podling and committers are still getting organized. The project website is just there and we had our first commits in our SVN repos just last night - the website. We are waiting on Wikis. Haven't decided on Bugzilla vs. JIRA ...
Keep watching and tell use what you need. "Patches are welcome", but we don't have much to patch yet.
Best Regards,
Dave
>
>
> Regards,,
> Eric Bachard
>
> --
> qɔᴉɹə
> Education Project:
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
> Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
> L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
> Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
>
>
>
>
>
Re: User facing web items
Posted by eric b <er...@free.fr>.
OOops, sorry, should read:
"Can someone explain why OOo4Kids and OOoLight are missing in this
list ?"
Regards,,
Eric Bachard
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: User facing web items
Posted by eric b <er...@free.fr>.
Hi,
Le 18 juin 11 à 18:25, Andrea Pescetti a écrit :
>
> I agree. It wouldn't make sense to lose the forums, that are a very
> important resource for end-users and one of the few resources that are
> still shared by OpenOffice.org and all derivatives (as the header
> says, they support OpenOffice.org, LibreOffice, StarOffice, and
> NeoOffice).
>
Can someone explain why OOo4Kids nor OOoLight are missing in this list ?
Thanks in advance :-)
Regards,
Eric Bachard
--
qɔᴉɹə
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>.
Rob Weir wrote:
> IMHO, I'd like to see the user forums become part of the project. I
> think user support is traditionally a function of an Apache project.
> Although it is most commonly done with a user list, that is just an
> implementation detail, not the essence of the function. Since OOo has
> so many users, the list would never scale. The traffic would be too
> heavy and would make it useless for users. So an Apache hosted phpBB
> instance makes the most sense to me.
I agree. It wouldn't make sense to lose the forums, that are a very
important resource for end-users and one of the few resources that are
still shared by OpenOffice.org and all derivatives (as the header says,
they support OpenOffice.org, LibreOffice, StarOffice, and NeoOffice).
And should continue to be an official part of the project, so hosted at
Apache if at all possible.
Regards,
Andrea.
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 18 June 2011 19:49, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Project websites are a form of official documentation.
>
> We want, but do not require, website content to be Apache
> licensed. We do however require that all website content
> be backed by an iCLA.
>
> None of that has anything to do with typical communication
> channels like public mailing lists and public forums. Noone
> can possibily claim that their participation on either was based
> on the premise that their posts would be kept off the web, unless
> some idiotic ToS somehow made them think that.
>
> I prefer we simply respect that such postings remain
> in posession of their respective authors, that our
> license to said works is limited to performing the
> basic essentials of maintaining their public availability,
> and if we'd like to republish their words in a different context,
> like on a project website or in end-user documentation, that we
> simply ask for the necessary permission to do so by seeking an iCLA.
OK, Joe seems very confident in his position on this and my reading of
the Terms on the user forums means we can proceed with under these
conditions as long as the specifics of those terms are adhered to
(which means firstly ensuring that any copyright headers placed by
contributors are respected and secondly ensuring no content is under a
different licence).
That just leaves the technical issues and we have volunteers stepping
up for that :-)
Ross
Ross
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Sent: Sat, June 18, 2011 2:35:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: User facing web items
>>
>> On 18 June 2011 19:14, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Ah, we don't need a license on forum content in order
>> > to host the forums at Apache. People who post to the forums
>> > are implicitly granting the right of publication thru
>> > the website, similar to people who post to the mailing
>> > lists grant the right to republication in web archives.
>> > It's part of the nature of the service, and doesn't need
>> > to be spelled out in an agreement.
>>
>> Isn't that dependent on the terms of use of the specific site.
>>
>> Even if this is not the case I'm a little confused by this assertion.
>> We don't allow projects to use, for example, an open wiki to produce
>> an apache.org hosted website. They contributors to the site content
>> must have signed a CLA. Am I reading too much into that rule and thus
>> your statement below is actually the important factor?
>>
>> > The only concern would be if we were trying to take forum
>> > content and redistribute it as OOo documentation. There
>> > we'd need an explicit license from the copyright author
>> > in the form of an ICLA.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----
>> >> From: drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>
>> >> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> >> Sent: Sat, June 18, 2011 2:07:31 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: User facing web items
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 10:48 -0700, Dave Fisher wrote:
>> >> > Hi Drew,
>> >> >
>> >> > Ross reminds me to be very careful about content licenses.
>> >> >
>> >> > Would you please confirm that the license for all contributions to the
>> these
>> >>Forums is here - http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use ?
>> >> >
>> >> > If not, then where? Thanks!
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I think that is about as close to a formal license as we ever had - but
>> >> I'll double check and let you know ASAP.
>> >>
>> >> //drew
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
>> Programme Leader (Open Development)
>> OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
>>
>
--
Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
Programme Leader (Open Development)
OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Project websites are a form of official documentation.
We want, but do not require, website content to be Apache
licensed. We do however require that all website content
be backed by an iCLA.
None of that has anything to do with typical communication
channels like public mailing lists and public forums. Noone
can possibily claim that their participation on either was based
on the premise that their posts would be kept off the web, unless
some idiotic ToS somehow made them think that.
I prefer we simply respect that such postings remain
in posession of their respective authors, that our
license to said works is limited to performing the
basic essentials of maintaining their public availability,
and if we'd like to republish their words in a different context,
like on a project website or in end-user documentation, that we
simply ask for the necessary permission to do so by seeking an iCLA.
----- Original Message ----
> From: Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Sent: Sat, June 18, 2011 2:35:29 PM
> Subject: Re: User facing web items
>
> On 18 June 2011 19:14, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Ah, we don't need a license on forum content in order
> > to host the forums at Apache. People who post to the forums
> > are implicitly granting the right of publication thru
> > the website, similar to people who post to the mailing
> > lists grant the right to republication in web archives.
> > It's part of the nature of the service, and doesn't need
> > to be spelled out in an agreement.
>
> Isn't that dependent on the terms of use of the specific site.
>
> Even if this is not the case I'm a little confused by this assertion.
> We don't allow projects to use, for example, an open wiki to produce
> an apache.org hosted website. They contributors to the site content
> must have signed a CLA. Am I reading too much into that rule and thus
> your statement below is actually the important factor?
>
> > The only concern would be if we were trying to take forum
> > content and redistribute it as OOo documentation. There
> > we'd need an explicit license from the copyright author
> > in the form of an ICLA.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> >> From: drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>
> >> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> >> Sent: Sat, June 18, 2011 2:07:31 PM
> >> Subject: Re: User facing web items
> >>
> >> On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 10:48 -0700, Dave Fisher wrote:
> >> > Hi Drew,
> >> >
> >> > Ross reminds me to be very careful about content licenses.
> >> >
> >> > Would you please confirm that the license for all contributions to the
> these
> >>Forums is here - http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use ?
> >> >
> >> > If not, then where? Thanks!
> >> >
> >>
> >> I think that is about as close to a formal license as we ever had - but
> >> I'll double check and let you know ASAP.
> >>
> >> //drew
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
> Programme Leader (Open Development)
> OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
>
Re: User facing web items
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 19:35 +0100, Ross Gardler wrote:
> On 18 June 2011 19:14, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Ah, we don't need a license on forum content in order
> > to host the forums at Apache. People who post to the forums
> > are implicitly granting the right of publication thru
> > the website, similar to people who post to the mailing
> > lists grant the right to republication in web archives.
> > It's part of the nature of the service, and doesn't need
> > to be spelled out in an agreement.
>
> Isn't that dependent on the terms of use of the specific site.
>
and here you go: Each person creating an account must agree to the
following (this is translated to all 9 Languages support at the fourms)
"By accessing “OpenOffice.org Community Forum” (hereinafter “we”, “us”,
“our”, “OpenOffice.org Community Forum”,
“http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum”), you agree to be legally
bound by the following terms. If you do not agree to be legally bound by
all of the following terms then please do not access and/or use
“OpenOffice.org Community Forum”. We may change these at any time and
we’ll do our utmost in informing you, though it would be prudent to
review this regularly yourself as your continued usage of
“OpenOffice.org Community Forum” after changes mean you agree to be
legally bound by these terms as they are updated and/or amended.
Our forums are powered by phpBB (hereinafter “they”, “them”, “their”,
“phpBB software”, “www.phpbb.com”, “phpBB Group”, “phpBB Teams”) which
is a bulletin board solution released under the “General Public
License” (hereinafter “GPL”) and can be downloaded from www.phpbb.com.
The phpBB software only facilitates internet based discussions, the
phpBB Group are not responsible for what we allow and/or disallow as
permissible content and/or conduct. For further information about phpBB,
please see: http://www.phpbb.com/.
You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful,
threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate
any laws be it of your country, the country where “OpenOffice.org
Community Forum” is hosted or International Law. Doing so may lead to
you being immediately and permanently banned, with notification of your
Internet Service Provider if deemed required by us. The IP address of
all posts are recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree
that “OpenOffice.org Community Forum” have the right to remove, edit,
move or close any topic at any time should we see fit. As a user you
agree to any information you have entered to being stored in a database.
While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without
your consent, neither “OpenOffice.org Community Forum” nor phpBB shall
be held responsible for any hacking attempt that may lead to the data
being compromised."
I suppose the last paragraph is the most pertinent here.
Hope that helps,
//drew
RE: User facing web items
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
" Isn't that dependent on the terms of use of the specific site."
I say yes (IANAL, etc). In the case of the OpenOffice.org site-wide terms of use, the default is as good as the ICAL. I don't think there is any issue except places on the site where different conditions are stated. I am yet to find an actual instance where [L]GPL3 is asserted for site content except in a dual-license notice with CC-by. I haven't looked at the forums and at bugzilla and my wiki explorations are far from comprehensive.
With regard to Joe's remark, I don't think such tacit permission extends to repurposing and sublicensing. People can have their own objections, for whatever reasons, to having their contributions showing up elsewhere absent a clear and visible terms-of-use, especially when there are associated ideological concerns, not just personal IP considerations.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Gardler [mailto:rgardler@opendirective.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 11:35
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: User facing web items
On 18 June 2011 19:14, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ah, we don't need a license on forum content in order
> to host the forums at Apache. People who post to the forums
> are implicitly granting the right of publication thru
> the website, similar to people who post to the mailing
> lists grant the right to republication in web archives.
> It's part of the nature of the service, and doesn't need
> to be spelled out in an agreement.
Isn't that dependent on the terms of use of the specific site.
[ ... ]
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 18 June 2011 19:14, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ah, we don't need a license on forum content in order
> to host the forums at Apache. People who post to the forums
> are implicitly granting the right of publication thru
> the website, similar to people who post to the mailing
> lists grant the right to republication in web archives.
> It's part of the nature of the service, and doesn't need
> to be spelled out in an agreement.
Isn't that dependent on the terms of use of the specific site.
Even if this is not the case I'm a little confused by this assertion.
We don't allow projects to use, for example, an open wiki to produce
an apache.org hosted website. They contributors to the site content
must have signed a CLA. Am I reading too much into that rule and thus
your statement below is actually the important factor?
> The only concern would be if we were trying to take forum
> content and redistribute it as OOo documentation. There
> we'd need an explicit license from the copyright author
> in the form of an ICLA.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Sent: Sat, June 18, 2011 2:07:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: User facing web items
>>
>> On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 10:48 -0700, Dave Fisher wrote:
>> > Hi Drew,
>> >
>> > Ross reminds me to be very careful about content licenses.
>> >
>> > Would you please confirm that the license for all contributions to the these
>>Forums is here - http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use ?
>> >
>> > If not, then where? Thanks!
>> >
>>
>> I think that is about as close to a formal license as we ever had - but
>> I'll double check and let you know ASAP.
>>
>> //drew
>>
>>
>
--
Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
Programme Leader (Open Development)
OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Ah, we don't need a license on forum content in order
to host the forums at Apache. People who post to the forums
are implicitly granting the right of publication thru
the website, similar to people who post to the mailing
lists grant the right to republication in web archives.
It's part of the nature of the service, and doesn't need
to be spelled out in an agreement.
The only concern would be if we were trying to take forum
content and redistribute it as OOo documentation. There
we'd need an explicit license from the copyright author
in the form of an ICLA.
----- Original Message ----
> From: drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Sent: Sat, June 18, 2011 2:07:31 PM
> Subject: Re: User facing web items
>
> On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 10:48 -0700, Dave Fisher wrote:
> > Hi Drew,
> >
> > Ross reminds me to be very careful about content licenses.
> >
> > Would you please confirm that the license for all contributions to the these
>Forums is here - http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use ?
> >
> > If not, then where? Thanks!
> >
>
> I think that is about as close to a formal license as we ever had - but
> I'll double check and let you know ASAP.
>
> //drew
>
>
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Jun 18, 2011, at 11:07 AM, drew wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 10:48 -0700, Dave Fisher wrote:
>> Hi Drew,
>>
>> Ross reminds me to be very careful about content licenses.
>>
>> Would you please confirm that the license for all contributions to the these Forums is here - http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use ?
>>
>> If not, then where? Thanks!
>>
>
> I think that is about as close to a formal license as we ever had - but
> I'll double check and let you know ASAP.
Thanks!
Regards,
Dave
Re: User facing web items
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 10:48 -0700, Dave Fisher wrote:
> Hi Drew,
>
> Ross reminds me to be very careful about content licenses.
>
> Would you please confirm that the license for all contributions to the these Forums is here - http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use ?
>
> If not, then where? Thanks!
>
I think that is about as close to a formal license as we ever had - but
I'll double check and let you know ASAP.
//drew
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
Hi Drew,
Ross reminds me to be very careful about content licenses.
Would you please confirm that the license for all contributions to the these Forums is here - http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use ?
If not, then where? Thanks!
Best Regards,
Dave
On Jun 18, 2011, at 10:04 AM, drew wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 08:42 -0700, Dave Fisher wrote:
>
>>
>> Zoltan - If you wish to get this done please contact Gavin so that the technical requirements plus any formal request to Oracle can be organized.
>
> Hi Zoltan, Dave
>
> As it happens I've have the details available and am subscribed to the
> infrastructure list - I'll pass this information along to Gavin M.
> there, today.
>
> As for a formal request to Oracle, it is not needed. I was part of the
> group the established the relationship with SUN Micro wherein they
> supplied use of a server (a zone on a server actually). The content of
> the forum was never owned by SUN.
>
> At the time Terry Ellison and me had to sign contributor agreements but
> that was only a requirement for us to register our SSH keys and have
> root access to the zone. There was not such requirement for anyone else
> associated with the site.
>
> Terry maintains the site. He has expressed his desire to continue to do
> so. (But since I'm already hooked into the mailing lists here I'll just
> pass the details on, for expediency) For my part I think it's time to
> move on, I truly believe that is the right decision for everyone
> concerned.
>
> So - as for requesting that the OO.o User Community Forums become part
> of the Apache OpenOffice.org project, formally - the request needs to go
> to the Volunteers Group at the Forums, not Oracle.
>
> Zoltan has all the authority needed there, both formal and good will
> wise, to do just that. I hope and will advocate to the members that they
> avail themselves of such an offer, should it come - however will not
> take part in any vote by the membership.
>
> My best wishes for all your continues endeavors,
>
> Drew Jensen
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>>
>>>
>>> Another important aspect is this: If the forums are part of the project,
>>> then all project members can also participate in the forums. We're not
>>> segregating roles, but encouraging a valuable way for direct communications
>>> between users and all project members.
>>>
>>> I heard some discussion of whether some other way of supporting users would
>>> work well, maybe something like StackExchange. IMHO, that is an
>>> implementation detail. Let's first agree on whether the user support
>>> function should be an integral part of the Apache OpenOffice project or
>>> not. If we agree it is, and I hope we do, then we can discuss the best way
>>> to implement that function going forward.
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>
>>
>
>
Re: User facing web items
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 08:42 -0700, Dave Fisher wrote:
>
> Zoltan - If you wish to get this done please contact Gavin so that the technical requirements plus any formal request to Oracle can be organized.
Hi Zoltan, Dave
As it happens I've have the details available and am subscribed to the
infrastructure list - I'll pass this information along to Gavin M.
there, today.
As for a formal request to Oracle, it is not needed. I was part of the
group the established the relationship with SUN Micro wherein they
supplied use of a server (a zone on a server actually). The content of
the forum was never owned by SUN.
At the time Terry Ellison and me had to sign contributor agreements but
that was only a requirement for us to register our SSH keys and have
root access to the zone. There was not such requirement for anyone else
associated with the site.
Terry maintains the site. He has expressed his desire to continue to do
so. (But since I'm already hooked into the mailing lists here I'll just
pass the details on, for expediency) For my part I think it's time to
move on, I truly believe that is the right decision for everyone
concerned.
So - as for requesting that the OO.o User Community Forums become part
of the Apache OpenOffice.org project, formally - the request needs to go
to the Volunteers Group at the Forums, not Oracle.
Zoltan has all the authority needed there, both formal and good will
wise, to do just that. I hope and will advocate to the members that they
avail themselves of such an offer, should it come - however will not
take part in any vote by the membership.
My best wishes for all your continues endeavors,
Drew Jensen
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
> >
> > Another important aspect is this: If the forums are part of the project,
> > then all project members can also participate in the forums. We're not
> > segregating roles, but encouraging a valuable way for direct communications
> > between users and all project members.
> >
> > I heard some discussion of whether some other way of supporting users would
> > work well, maybe something like StackExchange. IMHO, that is an
> > implementation detail. Let's first agree on whether the user support
> > function should be an integral part of the Apache OpenOffice project or
> > not. If we agree it is, and I hope we do, then we can discuss the best way
> > to implement that function going forward.
> >
> > -Rob
>
>
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Jun 18, 2011, at 8:16 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Reizinger Zoltán <zr...@hdsnet.hu>wrote:
>
>
>> The forums have link to the terms of use:
>> http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
>> This link was on all the time while the forum runs.
>> For my best knowledge, never was problem wit that.
>>
>> Now it is contain ASF 2.0 license for codes, I see no problems to
>> licensing.
>> Usually no source codes submitted to forums.
>>
>> Zoltan
>>
>
> I think this is a "architecture follows organization" versus "organization
> follows architecture" question.
>
> If the forum admins and moderators want to be part of the Apache
> OpenOffice.org project, then we should look for a way for Apache to host the
> phpBB instance for the forums.
>
snip ...
>
> IMHO, I'd like to see the user forums become part of the project. I think
> user support is traditionally a function of an Apache project. Although it
> is most commonly done with a user list, that is just an implementation
> detail, not the essence of the function. Since OOo has so many users, the
> list would never scale. The traffic would be too heavy and would make it
> useless for users. So an Apache hosted phpBB instance makes the most sense
> to me.
Agreed. The first step is to put someone who knows the technical details of the current forums in touch with Gavin McDonald on the Infrastructure email list.
On Jun 16, 2011, at 2:35 PM, Gavin McDonald wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> Nothing at all to do with Bugzilla :) but perhaps you can give me details
> of who looks after the current phpbb forums for OOo as I will be the one
> looking to migrate that over to the ASF.
>
> Thanks
>
> Gav...
> On Jun 18, 2011, at 1:10 AM, Reizinger Zoltán wrote:
>
>> 2011.06.18. 1:33 keltezéssel, Andy Brown írta:
>>>
>>> I know from conversations that the forum is hosted on Oracle servers, in Germany, if I am not mistaken.
>> Yes.
>> I'm co-admin of Hungarian forum from start of HU user forum, and volunteer from EN forum start.
>>> The Admin is an employee of Oracle.
>> Half true. Oracle/Sun provides space in virtualized servers, if something happens with servers which needs phiscally touch it, then Oracle admin mange it.
>> All the other case the user forum admin Terry Ellison works, he manage the common for all forums database and webserver, MySQL and phphBB 3.0.x.
>> Language co-admins make language dependent work, works with spams, rouge users, etc.
>> The Oracle only help us providing infrastructure (server space and bandwith), not more.
>> The forums runs in common database and webserver.
>>> The moderators are from all over and volunteers for the most part. If it can not hosted on Apache servers then I am afraid that it will be lost and all the help that it has for users.
>> If not Apache will support this, we needs to search founding and run in other place to support users, which is our will.
>>> "Is a forum the right solution today", good question but I have seen flame wars break out over that very topic in some mailing list. I prefer mailing list but understand why end users prefer a forum so I would support us keeping it.
>> Users forums started before the TDF was formed, their mailing list and forum discussions not problem for us, we support all OOo derivate software users, to help them, if we can answer their problems.
>> Zoltan
>
>
> One way for this to work would be for the current forum admin(s) to
> volunteer at Apache Infrastructure, to provide the expertise for installing,
> customizing and maintaining phpBB, as well as porting the existing data.
> Moderators would clearly be welcome as project members. Their
> contributions are important for helping the users work well with the
> product, but also to direct them to bug reports, etc. They also would serve
> an important role in community development and recruitment.
Zoltan - If you wish to get this done please contact Gavin so that the technical requirements plus any formal request to Oracle can be organized.
Regards,
Dave
>
> Another important aspect is this: If the forums are part of the project,
> then all project members can also participate in the forums. We're not
> segregating roles, but encouraging a valuable way for direct communications
> between users and all project members.
>
> I heard some discussion of whether some other way of supporting users would
> work well, maybe something like StackExchange. IMHO, that is an
> implementation detail. Let's first agree on whether the user support
> function should be an integral part of the Apache OpenOffice project or
> not. If we agree it is, and I hope we do, then we can discuss the best way
> to implement that function going forward.
>
> -Rob
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>.
On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Reizinger Zoltán <zr...@hdsnet.hu>wrote:
> The forums have link to the terms of use:
> http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
> This link was on all the time while the forum runs.
> For my best knowledge, never was problem wit that.
>
> Now it is contain ASF 2.0 license for codes, I see no problems to
> licensing.
> Usually no source codes submitted to forums.
>
> Zoltan
>
I think this is a "architecture follows organization" versus "organization
follows architecture" question.
If the forum admins and moderators want to be part of the Apache
OpenOffice.org project, then we should look for a way for Apache to host the
phpBB instance for the forums.
If the forum admins and moderators want to be remain independent, then they
would need to find some other arrangement, such as a link, from the Apache
project page. In this case you would need to find a server to host the
forums.
IMHO, I'd like to see the user forums become part of the project. I think
user support is traditionally a function of an Apache project. Although it
is most commonly done with a user list, that is just an implementation
detail, not the essence of the function. Since OOo has so many users, the
list would never scale. The traffic would be too heavy and would make it
useless for users. So an Apache hosted phpBB instance makes the most sense
to me.
One way for this to work would be for the current forum admin(s) to
volunteer at Apache Infrastructure, to provide the expertise for installing,
customizing and maintaining phpBB, as well as porting the existing data.
Moderators would clearly be welcome as project members. Their
contributions are important for helping the users work well with the
product, but also to direct them to bug reports, etc. They also would serve
an important role in community development and recruitment.
Another important aspect is this: If the forums are part of the project,
then all project members can also participate in the forums. We're not
segregating roles, but encouraging a valuable way for direct communications
between users and all project members.
I heard some discussion of whether some other way of supporting users would
work well, maybe something like StackExchange. IMHO, that is an
implementation detail. Let's first agree on whether the user support
function should be an integral part of the Apache OpenOffice project or
not. If we agree it is, and I hope we do, then we can discuss the best way
to implement that function going forward.
-Rob
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net>.
Zoltan wrote:
> Hi Andy,
>
> The forums have link to the terms of use:
> http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
> This link was on all the time while the forum runs.
> For my best knowledge, never was problem wit that.
>
> Now it is contain ASF 2.0 license for codes, I see no problems to
> licensing.
> Usually no source codes submitted to forums.
>
> Zoltan
>>
>> Andy
>> (therabi)
The license may not be an issue as Ross has pointed out. But where the
infra project can/will host the forum. I feel that it maybe best to
find an external location and see if infra can just redirect with a note
that the forums are host external to ASF.
Andy
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Reizinger Zoltán <zr...@hdsnet.hu>.
Hi Andy,
2011.06.18. 15:46 keltezéssel, Andy Brown írta:
> Hi Zoltan,
>
> Zoltan wrote:
>> 2011.06.18. 1:33 keltezéssel, Andy Brown írta:
>>> Hi Ross,
>>>
>>> Ross Gardler wrote:
>>>> On 17 June 2011 00:00, Andy Brown<an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
>>>>> I have seen references to "user facing" web items, web pages, wiki
>>>>> and
>>>>> mailing list. What will happen to the forum at
>>>>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ ? It is an very useful
>>>>> user
>>>>> facing asset that I would hate to see lost. If it is transfered what
>>>>> will
>>>>> be require from those that provide assistance there? Will the
>>>>> moderators be
>>>>> required to committers? Thus requiring an iCLA?
>>>>
>>>> There are many other things to consider in this question:
>>>>
>>>> - will infra@ be willing to host an instance of the software
>>>> - can we migrate the content?
>>>> - is it under a suitable licence to allow migration
>>>> - is the forum approach the right solution today
>>>> - and many more issues
>>>>
>>>> Ross
>>>>
>>>
>>> I know from conversations that the forum is hosted on Oracle servers,
>>> in Germany, if I am not mistaken.
>> Yes.
>> I'm co-admin of Hungarian forum from start of HU user forum, and
>> volunteer from EN forum start.
>>> The Admin is an employee of Oracle.
>> Half true. Oracle/Sun provides space in virtualized servers, if
>> something happens with servers which needs phiscally touch it, then
>> Oracle admin mange it.
>> All the other case the user forum admin Terry Ellison works, he manage
>> the common for all forums database and webserver, MySQL and phphBB
>> 3.0.x.
>> Language co-admins make language dependent work, works with spams, rouge
>> users, etc.
>> The Oracle only help us providing infrastructure (server space and
>> bandwith), not more.
>> The forums runs in common database and webserver.
>>> The moderators are from all over and volunteers for the most part. If
>>> it can not hosted on Apache servers then I am afraid that it will be
>>> lost and all the help that it has for users.
>> If not Apache will support this, we needs to search founding and run in
>> other place to support users, which is our will.
>>> "Is a forum the right solution today", good question but I have seen
>>> flame wars break out over that very topic in some mailing list. I
>>> prefer mailing list but understand why end users prefer a forum so I
>>> would support us keeping it.
>> Users forums started before the TDF was formed, their mailing list and
>> forum discussions not problem for us, we support all OOo derivate
>> software users, to help them, if we can answer their problems.
>> Zoltan
>>>
>>> Andy
>
> Good to see you here. :) Terry and I have been in contact an he
> corrected me on his role as Admin. He also told me that the license
> for the Forums is Copyleft which, if I understand correctly will
> prevent them from being on ASF servers. If they are part of the grant
> then I guess that could change. I am looking as some alternate
> options in case ASF can not host the forums.
The forums have link to the terms of use:
http://openoffice.org/terms_of_use
This link was on all the time while the forum runs.
For my best knowledge, never was problem wit that.
Now it is contain ASF 2.0 license for codes, I see no problems to licensing.
Usually no source codes submitted to forums.
Zoltan
>
> Andy
> (therabi)
>
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
Sent from my mobile device (so please excuse typos)
On 18 Jun 2011, at 16:27, Reizinger Zoltán <zr...@hdsnet.hu> wrote:
> Hi Ross,
>
> 2011.06.18. 16:56 keltezéssel, Ross Gardler írta:
>> On 18 Jun 2011, at 15:31, Andy Brown<an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Ross Gardler wrote:
>>>> If (and that's a big if) infra are willing to host software for you the license is not an issue. We won't distribute incompatibly licensed software it but we use it. The rules are to make sure users can do what ever they want with our software, when it comes to support for developers you'll find the ASF to be very pragmatic.
>>>>
>>>> Ross
>>> Hi Ross,
>>>
>>> This is not about support for developers it is for users.
>> The developers/contributors support users.
> In OOo forum case no developers answered any questions on users forums, so low number of developers can not do this.
> The developers answered usually on users mailing list.
> The volunteers, moderators on forums mostly power users of OOo, with no developer background.
Note I added "contributor" to "developer" in my response above.
In the ASF, just as in most successful projects including OO.o, people who support users are first class citizens in the development process. The people with the closest relationship with users are sometimes the best people to guide future direction. For this reason we try not to separate between code developers, documentation writers, user supporters, marketers etc.
My point is that, at least from my point of view, the profile of people in these forums is irrelevant. Rob makes a similar point about not segregating people by role, so I won't expand further.
Ross
>
> Some volunteers, as I, worked in OOo projects as QA volunteers after some time if he has a will.
> I not provided any code to OOo, in Base QA I was the first reviewer of submitted bugs, looked around in bugzilla for similar problems, or earlier fixed bugs, tested problems in available environment. My work helped OOo Base developers to work only on "real" bugs.
> If I found problems during answering to questions on forum, and it proved, sometimes submitted bugs in bugzilla.
>
> Zoltan
>> The point still stands. The ASF will consider hosting software under any licence for it's projects. The limitation is resources not license.
>>
>> Ross
>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Reizinger Zoltán <zr...@hdsnet.hu>.
Hi Ross,
2011.06.18. 16:56 keltezéssel, Ross Gardler írta:
> On 18 Jun 2011, at 15:31, Andy Brown<an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
>
>> Ross Gardler wrote:
>>> If (and that's a big if) infra are willing to host software for you the license is not an issue. We won't distribute incompatibly licensed software it but we use it. The rules are to make sure users can do what ever they want with our software, when it comes to support for developers you'll find the ASF to be very pragmatic.
>>>
>>> Ross
>> Hi Ross,
>>
>> This is not about support for developers it is for users.
> The developers/contributors support users.
In OOo forum case no developers answered any questions on users forums,
so low number of developers can not do this.
The developers answered usually on users mailing list.
The volunteers, moderators on forums mostly power users of OOo, with no
developer background.
Some volunteers, as I, worked in OOo projects as QA volunteers after
some time if he has a will.
I not provided any code to OOo, in Base QA I was the first reviewer of
submitted bugs, looked around in bugzilla for similar problems, or
earlier fixed bugs, tested problems in available environment. My work
helped OOo Base developers to work only on "real" bugs.
If I found problems during answering to questions on forum, and it
proved, sometimes submitted bugs in bugzilla.
Zoltan
> The point still stands. The ASF will consider hosting software under any licence for it's projects. The limitation is resources not license.
>
> Ross
>
>> Andy
>>
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 18 Jun 2011, at 15:31, Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
>> If (and that's a big if) infra are willing to host software for you the license is not an issue. We won't distribute incompatibly licensed software it but we use it. The rules are to make sure users can do what ever they want with our software, when it comes to support for developers you'll find the ASF to be very pragmatic.
>>
>> Ross
>
> Hi Ross,
>
> This is not about support for developers it is for users.
The developers/contributors support users.
The point still stands. The ASF will consider hosting software under any licence for it's projects. The limitation is resources not license.
Ross
>
> Andy
>
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net>.
Ross Gardler wrote:
> If (and that's a big if) infra are willing to host software for you the license is not an issue. We won't distribute incompatibly licensed software it but we use it. The rules are to make sure users can do what ever they want with our software, when it comes to support for developers you'll find the ASF to be very pragmatic.
>
> Ross
Hi Ross,
This is not about support for developers it is for users.
Andy
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
If (and that's a big if) infra are willing to host software for you the license is not an issue. We won't distribute incompatibly licensed software it but we use it. The rules are to make sure users can do what ever they want with our software, when it comes to support for developers you'll find the ASF to be very pragmatic.
Ross
Sent from my mobile device (so please excuse typos)
On 18 Jun 2011, at 14:46, Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
> Hi Zoltan,
>
> Zoltan wrote:
>> 2011.06.18. 1:33 keltezéssel, Andy Brown írta:
>>> Hi Ross,
>>>
>>> Ross Gardler wrote:
>>>> On 17 June 2011 00:00, Andy Brown<an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
>>>>> I have seen references to "user facing" web items, web pages, wiki and
>>>>> mailing list. What will happen to the forum at
>>>>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ ? It is an very useful
>>>>> user
>>>>> facing asset that I would hate to see lost. If it is transfered what
>>>>> will
>>>>> be require from those that provide assistance there? Will the
>>>>> moderators be
>>>>> required to committers? Thus requiring an iCLA?
>>>>
>>>> There are many other things to consider in this question:
>>>>
>>>> - will infra@ be willing to host an instance of the software
>>>> - can we migrate the content?
>>>> - is it under a suitable licence to allow migration
>>>> - is the forum approach the right solution today
>>>> - and many more issues
>>>>
>>>> Ross
>>>>
>>>
>>> I know from conversations that the forum is hosted on Oracle servers,
>>> in Germany, if I am not mistaken.
>> Yes.
>> I'm co-admin of Hungarian forum from start of HU user forum, and
>> volunteer from EN forum start.
>>> The Admin is an employee of Oracle.
>> Half true. Oracle/Sun provides space in virtualized servers, if
>> something happens with servers which needs phiscally touch it, then
>> Oracle admin mange it.
>> All the other case the user forum admin Terry Ellison works, he manage
>> the common for all forums database and webserver, MySQL and phphBB 3.0.x.
>> Language co-admins make language dependent work, works with spams, rouge
>> users, etc.
>> The Oracle only help us providing infrastructure (server space and
>> bandwith), not more.
>> The forums runs in common database and webserver.
>>> The moderators are from all over and volunteers for the most part. If
>>> it can not hosted on Apache servers then I am afraid that it will be
>>> lost and all the help that it has for users.
>> If not Apache will support this, we needs to search founding and run in
>> other place to support users, which is our will.
>>> "Is a forum the right solution today", good question but I have seen
>>> flame wars break out over that very topic in some mailing list. I
>>> prefer mailing list but understand why end users prefer a forum so I
>>> would support us keeping it.
>> Users forums started before the TDF was formed, their mailing list and
>> forum discussions not problem for us, we support all OOo derivate
>> software users, to help them, if we can answer their problems.
>> Zoltan
>>>
>>> Andy
>
> Good to see you here. :) Terry and I have been in contact an he corrected me on his role as Admin. He also told me that the license for the Forums is Copyleft which, if I understand correctly will prevent them from being on ASF servers. If they are part of the grant then I guess that could change. I am looking as some alternate options in case ASF can not host the forums.
>
> Andy
> (therabi)
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net>.
Hi Zoltan,
Zoltan wrote:
> 2011.06.18. 1:33 keltezéssel, Andy Brown írta:
>> Hi Ross,
>>
>> Ross Gardler wrote:
>>> On 17 June 2011 00:00, Andy Brown<an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
>>>> I have seen references to "user facing" web items, web pages, wiki and
>>>> mailing list. What will happen to the forum at
>>>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ ? It is an very useful
>>>> user
>>>> facing asset that I would hate to see lost. If it is transfered what
>>>> will
>>>> be require from those that provide assistance there? Will the
>>>> moderators be
>>>> required to committers? Thus requiring an iCLA?
>>>
>>> There are many other things to consider in this question:
>>>
>>> - will infra@ be willing to host an instance of the software
>>> - can we migrate the content?
>>> - is it under a suitable licence to allow migration
>>> - is the forum approach the right solution today
>>> - and many more issues
>>>
>>> Ross
>>>
>>
>> I know from conversations that the forum is hosted on Oracle servers,
>> in Germany, if I am not mistaken.
> Yes.
> I'm co-admin of Hungarian forum from start of HU user forum, and
> volunteer from EN forum start.
>> The Admin is an employee of Oracle.
> Half true. Oracle/Sun provides space in virtualized servers, if
> something happens with servers which needs phiscally touch it, then
> Oracle admin mange it.
> All the other case the user forum admin Terry Ellison works, he manage
> the common for all forums database and webserver, MySQL and phphBB 3.0.x.
> Language co-admins make language dependent work, works with spams, rouge
> users, etc.
> The Oracle only help us providing infrastructure (server space and
> bandwith), not more.
> The forums runs in common database and webserver.
>> The moderators are from all over and volunteers for the most part. If
>> it can not hosted on Apache servers then I am afraid that it will be
>> lost and all the help that it has for users.
> If not Apache will support this, we needs to search founding and run in
> other place to support users, which is our will.
>> "Is a forum the right solution today", good question but I have seen
>> flame wars break out over that very topic in some mailing list. I
>> prefer mailing list but understand why end users prefer a forum so I
>> would support us keeping it.
> Users forums started before the TDF was formed, their mailing list and
> forum discussions not problem for us, we support all OOo derivate
> software users, to help them, if we can answer their problems.
> Zoltan
>>
>> Andy
Good to see you here. :) Terry and I have been in contact an he
corrected me on his role as Admin. He also told me that the license for
the Forums is Copyleft which, if I understand correctly will prevent
them from being on ASF servers. If they are part of the grant then I
guess that could change. I am looking as some alternate options in case
ASF can not host the forums.
Andy
(therabi)
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Reizinger Zoltán <zr...@hdsnet.hu>.
2011.06.18. 1:33 keltezéssel, Andy Brown írta:
> Hi Ross,
>
> Ross Gardler wrote:
>> On 17 June 2011 00:00, Andy Brown<an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
>>> I have seen references to "user facing" web items, web pages, wiki and
>>> mailing list. What will happen to the forum at
>>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ ? It is an very
>>> useful user
>>> facing asset that I would hate to see lost. If it is transfered
>>> what will
>>> be require from those that provide assistance there? Will the
>>> moderators be
>>> required to committers? Thus requiring an iCLA?
>>
>> There are many other things to consider in this question:
>>
>> - will infra@ be willing to host an instance of the software
>> - can we migrate the content?
>> - is it under a suitable licence to allow migration
>> - is the forum approach the right solution today
>> - and many more issues
>>
>> Ross
>>
>
> I know from conversations that the forum is hosted on Oracle servers,
> in Germany, if I am not mistaken.
Yes.
I'm co-admin of Hungarian forum from start of HU user forum, and
volunteer from EN forum start.
> The Admin is an employee of Oracle.
Half true. Oracle/Sun provides space in virtualized servers, if
something happens with servers which needs phiscally touch it, then
Oracle admin mange it.
All the other case the user forum admin Terry Ellison works, he manage
the common for all forums database and webserver, MySQL and phphBB 3.0.x.
Language co-admins make language dependent work, works with spams, rouge
users, etc.
The Oracle only help us providing infrastructure (server space and
bandwith), not more.
The forums runs in common database and webserver.
> The moderators are from all over and volunteers for the most part. If
> it can not hosted on Apache servers then I am afraid that it will be
> lost and all the help that it has for users.
If not Apache will support this, we needs to search founding and run in
other place to support users, which is our will.
> "Is a forum the right solution today", good question but I have seen
> flame wars break out over that very topic in some mailing list. I
> prefer mailing list but understand why end users prefer a forum so I
> would support us keeping it.
Users forums started before the TDF was formed, their mailing list and
forum discussions not problem for us, we support all OOo derivate
software users, to help them, if we can answer their problems.
Zoltan
>
> Andy
>
RE: User facing web items
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Wow, Stack Overflow.
Interesting.
Not sure how it would work for (power) users in the case of OOo, but definitely something to think about. I'd vote for same as, but don't know if that's workable.
A lot depends on how well search can be made to work so users can find existing threads on their topic without much pain.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Gardler [mailto:rgardler@opendirective.com]
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 16:50
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: User facing web items
On 18 June 2011 00:33, Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
> "Is a forum the right solution today", good
> question but I have seen flame wars break out over that very topic in some
> mailing list. I prefer mailing list but understand why end users prefer a
> forum so I would support us keeping it.
:-)
Recently there were discussions in the ASF about using something like
(or the same as) StackOverflow. for this kind of support.
Today I read that the recent Eclipse Community Survey had found that
StackOverflow was extremely important (being more important than their
internal support forums).
You are right to avoid the flame war, but at the same time now might
be a really good time to consider alternative user support mechanisms
since if you want to host this in the ASF it will require infra to
support some new tool anyway. As you've already heard infra don't take
that kind of responsibility on lightly and it might be possible to get
more projects to pitch in to help infra if a "more modern approach to
user support were adopted.
Of course, it would make sense to get a dump of the contents of those
forums (licence permitting) anyway and that should really be the
initial focus.
Ross
--
Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
Programme Leader (Open Development)
OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 18 June 2011 00:33, Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
> "Is a forum the right solution today", good
> question but I have seen flame wars break out over that very topic in some
> mailing list. I prefer mailing list but understand why end users prefer a
> forum so I would support us keeping it.
:-)
Recently there were discussions in the ASF about using something like
(or the same as) StackOverflow. for this kind of support.
Today I read that the recent Eclipse Community Survey had found that
StackOverflow was extremely important (being more important than their
internal support forums).
You are right to avoid the flame war, but at the same time now might
be a really good time to consider alternative user support mechanisms
since if you want to host this in the ASF it will require infra to
support some new tool anyway. As you've already heard infra don't take
that kind of responsibility on lightly and it might be possible to get
more projects to pitch in to help infra if a "more modern approach to
user support were adopted.
Of course, it would make sense to get a dump of the contents of those
forums (licence permitting) anyway and that should really be the
initial focus.
Ross
--
Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
Programme Leader (Open Development)
OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net>.
Hi Ross,
Ross Gardler wrote:
> On 17 June 2011 00:00, Andy Brown<an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
>> I have seen references to "user facing" web items, web pages, wiki and
>> mailing list. What will happen to the forum at
>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ ? It is an very useful user
>> facing asset that I would hate to see lost. If it is transfered what will
>> be require from those that provide assistance there? Will the moderators be
>> required to committers? Thus requiring an iCLA?
>
> There are many other things to consider in this question:
>
> - will infra@ be willing to host an instance of the software
> - can we migrate the content?
> - is it under a suitable licence to allow migration
> - is the forum approach the right solution today
> - and many more issues
>
> Ross
>
I know from conversations that the forum is hosted on Oracle servers, in
Germany, if I am not mistaken. The Admin is an employee of Oracle. The
moderators are from all over and volunteers for the most part. If it
can not hosted on Apache servers then I am afraid that it will be lost
and all the help that it has for users. "Is a forum the right solution
today", good question but I have seen flame wars break out over that
very topic in some mailing list. I prefer mailing list but understand
why end users prefer a forum so I would support us keeping it.
Andy
Re: User facing web items
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 17 June 2011 00:00, Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net> wrote:
> I have seen references to "user facing" web items, web pages, wiki and
> mailing list. What will happen to the forum at
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ ? It is an very useful user
> facing asset that I would hate to see lost. If it is transfered what will
> be require from those that provide assistance there? Will the moderators be
> required to committers? Thus requiring an iCLA?
There are many other things to consider in this question:
- will infra@ be willing to host an instance of the software
- can we migrate the content?
- is it under a suitable licence to allow migration
- is the forum approach the right solution today
- and many more issues
Ross
--
Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>
Programme Leader (Open Development)
OpenDirective http://opendirective.com