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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de> on 2004/06/02 10:06:23 UTC
Lucene integration (Re: Nudge to release now)
Michael Wechner:
> I would rather do another RC and check on the state of the open bugs.
There are several bugs relating to the Lucene integration and currently it
unfortunately is not usable.
Before doing another RC I suggest to remove the "search" field from the default
publication or to put a hint on the hitlist pages that the Lucene integration is
broken.
Andreas
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Re: Worse Is Better (Re: Lucene integration (Re: Nudge to release now))
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
Tim Larson wrote:
> There are exceptions, but usually the choice is between perfection and
> irrelevance versus admitting and releasing imperfection that can grow
> over time toward being well adapted and used by many people.
If I were to accept the argument (and I am not sure I do) I would point out that
Lenya is such an "exception". In the past (after 1.0 was released) people have
turned away from it not because it was perfect and polished but because they
were not even able to get it to run - and if they were they stumbled upon
serious errors. In other words: a certain minimum of quality is required to be
able to grow a community arround it.
That has improved a *lot* but at the moment there still are a small number of
problems which - in my opinion - should either be hidden (by disabling features)
or resolved or clearly pointed out to users before 1.2 is released (and
announced to the world !).
And when these problems are resolved and 1.2 is released there still is a lot to
polish and implement: at the moment Bugzilla contains 137 entries.
Andreas
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Re: Worse Is Better (Re: Lucene integration (Re: Nudge to release now))
Posted by Tim Larson <ti...@keow.org>.
On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 04:07:16PM +0200, Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
> Andreas Hartmann:
>
> > > You mean this one: "Bad code makes good communities" ?
> > >
> > > Sorry, but I strongly doubt that deliberately releasing broken core features
> > > will attract new developers or users...
> >
> > Certainly it won't attract users, but I'm not sure about
> > developers. Tim sounded like he has enough experience
> > with open source development to judge the situation
> > correctly, and I have heard the same opinion from other
> > (doubtless experienced) developers. I have no idea about
> > statistics etc. to prove this statement.
>
> That seems to be related to the "Worse Is Better" approach described with dismay
> by Richard P. Gabriel. (See http://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html)
>
> In any case it is an interesting issue. I will try to dig up some material.
>
> Andreas
Yes, this is the same idea expressed in other words. Polished designs
often hit the market later than unpolished implementations, giving the
unfinished implementations a chance to grow a development community,
mold/flex to the actual needs of the community (rather than to planned
or imagined needs), and generally set down solid roots that make it
very difficult for the much-delayed competing polished implementations
to gain significant marketshare.
There are exceptions, but usually the choice is between perfection and
irrelevance versus admitting and releasing imperfection that can grow
over time toward being well adapted and used by many people.
--Tim Larson
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Worse Is Better (Re: Lucene integration (Re: Nudge to release now))
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
Andreas Hartmann:
> > You mean this one: "Bad code makes good communities" ?
> >
> > Sorry, but I strongly doubt that deliberately releasing broken core features
> > will attract new developers or users...
>
> Certainly it won't attract users, but I'm not sure about
> developers. Tim sounded like he has enough experience
> with open source development to judge the situation
> correctly, and I have heard the same opinion from other
> (doubtless experienced) developers. I have no idea about
> statistics etc. to prove this statement.
That seems to be related to the "Worse Is Better" approach described with dismay
by Richard P. Gabriel. (See http://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html)
In any case it is an interesting issue. I will try to dig up some material.
Andreas
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Re: Lucene integration (Re: Nudge to release now)
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>
>
>>>[...] I suggest to remove the "search" field from the default
>>>publication or to put a hint on the hitlist pages that the Lucene
>
> integration is
>
>>>broken.
>>
>>-1 (for the reasons mentioned by Tim)
>
>
> You mean this one: "Bad code makes good communities" ?
>
> Sorry, but I strongly doubt that deliberately releasing broken core features
> will attract new developers or users...
Certainly it won't attract users, but I'm not sure about
developers. Tim sounded like he has enough experience
with open source development to judge the situation
correctly, and I have heard the same opinion from other
(doubtless experienced) developers. I have no idea about
statistics etc. to prove this statement.
-- Andreas
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Re: Lucene integration (Re: Nudge to release now)
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> > [...] I suggest to remove the "search" field from the default
> > publication or to put a hint on the hitlist pages that the Lucene
integration is
> > broken.
>
> -1 (for the reasons mentioned by Tim)
You mean this one: "Bad code makes good communities" ?
Sorry, but I strongly doubt that deliberately releasing broken core features
will attract new developers or users...
Andreas
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Re: Lucene integration (Re: Nudge to release now)
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
> Michael Wechner:
>
>
>>I would rather do another RC and check on the state of the open bugs.
>
>
> There are several bugs relating to the Lucene integration and currently it
> unfortunately is not usable.
>
> Before doing another RC I suggest to remove the "search" field from the default
> publication or to put a hint on the hitlist pages that the Lucene integration is
> broken.
-1 (for the reasons mentioned by Tim)
-- Andreas
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Re: Lucene integration (Re: Nudge to release now)
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
[...]
> what exactly doesn't work within the default publication re Lucene?
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29023
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29311
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29312
-- Andreas
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Re: Lucene integration (Re: Nudge to release now)
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
>>>Publishing a document does not update index of Lucene
>>>http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29312
>>>
>>>
>>this is a missing feature and not a bug.
>>
>>
>
>1. A search engine whose index is neither updated automatically nor can be
>updated manually is worse than useless.
>
>
you can update it manually (e.g. via crontab):
ant -f src/webapp/lenya/bin/crawl_and_index.xml ....
but Lucene is not connected yet to the publication API yet.
Hopefully this will happen with 1.4
>2. A user can reasonably expect the search engine of a CMS system to search all
>published documents.
>
>
it does, but you need to recreate the index
>In some sense most bugs are "missing features" ...
>
>
but still, this is not a bug ;-)
Michi
>Andreas
>
>
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>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Lucene integration (Re: Nudge to release now)
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
> >Publishing a document does not update index of Lucene
> >http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29312
>
> this is a missing feature and not a bug.
1. A search engine whose index is neither updated automatically nor can be
updated manually is worse than useless.
2. A user can reasonably expect the search engine of a CMS system to search all
published documents.
In some sense most bugs are "missing features" ...
Andreas
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Re: Lucene integration (Re: Nudge to release now)
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
>Michael Wechner:
>
>
>
>>what exactly doesn't work within the default publication re Lucene?
>>
>>
>
>These are the bugs I mean:
>
>Search engine delivers wrong URLs in hitlist
>http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29023
>
>No hitlist for "Sort By" set to "Title"
>http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29168
>
>
this can be fixed, but I thought Gregor's recent commits fixed these two
issues, but
maybe I misread the commit messages
>Search field in lower-level articles does not work
>http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29311
>
>
what does that mean?
>Publishing a document does not update index of Lucene
>http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29312
>
>
this is a missing feature and not a bug.
Michi
>Andreas
>
>
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>
>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Lucene integration (Re: Nudge to release now)
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
Michael Wechner:
> what exactly doesn't work within the default publication re Lucene?
These are the bugs I mean:
Search engine delivers wrong URLs in hitlist
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29023
No hitlist for "Sort By" set to "Title"
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29168
Search field in lower-level articles does not work
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29311
Publishing a document does not update index of Lucene
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=29312
Andreas
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Re: Lucene integration (Re: Nudge to release now)
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
>Michael Wechner:
>
>
>
>>I would rather do another RC and check on the state of the open bugs.
>>
>>
>
>There are several bugs relating to the Lucene integration and currently it
>unfortunately is not usable.
>
>Before doing another RC I suggest to remove the "search" field from the default
>publication or to put a hint on the hitlist pages that the Lucene integration is
>broken.
>
>
what exactly doesn't work within the default publication re Lucene?
Thanks
Michi
>Andreas
>
>
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>
>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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