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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org> on 2007/04/04 16:28:19 UTC
[1.4] Merge ac.xconf into publication.xconf? (was: [Vote] Release
1.4 RC1)
Hi Joern,
Joern Nettingsmeier schrieb:
> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>> Hi Lenya devs,
>>
>> please cast your votes on a release of 1.4 release candidate 1.
>>
>> The vote will be open for 72 hours. If it passes, a code freeze
>> will be announced.
>
> drat. i'm all for a rc, but i still haven't merged my branch... i
> think they make the configuration a lot nicer and i'd love to see
> them go in...
>
> problem is: * i think the publication.xconf should be extended to
> include ac configuration as well, but this is not done yet.
I'm not sure if this is really a good idea. We might end up
with a quite large config file. IMO it's more convenient to have
small, dedicated config files.
But we might move ac.xconf one directory up to <pub>/config
to give it more visibility. Many config files in one specific
directory might be better than a single large one.
What do the others think?
-- Andreas
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Re: [1.4] Merge ac.xconf into publication.xconf? (was: [Vote] Release
1.4 RC1)
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Bob Harner schrieb:
[...]
>> I'd like something like this:
>>
>> * All configuration files use something like
>>
>> <parameter name="configuration"
>> value="aggregate-fallback://%STORE%/ac/usecase-policies.xml"/>
>>
>> * You can set the store location in publication.xconf:
>>
>> store=/home/alice/lenya-store
>>
>> * The %STORE% placeholder is replaced by the build process
>>
>>
>> The disadvantage is that you'd have to configure a list of
>> config files (or directories) to patch in the build process,
>> but I could live with that.
>>
> This sounds great to me. But I wonder if the %STORE% replacement
> wouldn't be better as a runtime setting rather than requiring a build?
Yes, that would be even nicer. It would require a common
mechanism for configuration URL resolving, but I guess that
shouldn't be too hard to implement.
-- Andreas
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Re: [1.4] Merge ac.xconf into publication.xconf? (was: [Vote] Release 1.4 RC1)
Posted by Bob Harner <bo...@gmail.com>.
On 4/10/07, Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org> wrote:
> Joern Nettingsmeier schrieb:
> > Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> >> Hi Joern,
> >>
> >> Joern Nettingsmeier schrieb:
> >>> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> >>>> Hi Lenya devs,
> >>>>
> >>>> please cast your votes on a release of 1.4 release candidate 1.
> >>>>
> >>>> The vote will be open for 72 hours. If it passes, a code freeze
> >>>> will be announced.
> >>> drat. i'm all for a rc, but i still haven't merged my branch... i
> >>> think they make the configuration a lot nicer and i'd love to see
> >>> them go in...
> >>>
> >>> problem is: * i think the publication.xconf should be extended to
> >>> include ac configuration as well, but this is not done yet.
> >>
> >> I'm not sure if this is really a good idea. We might end up
> >> with a quite large config file. IMO it's more convenient to have
> >> small, dedicated config files.
> >
> > i don't have particularly strong opinions about one big vs. many small
> > config files, but as it is now, we have some redundancy: when you
> > specify a <content-dir>, you will also want to redirect the passwd and
> > roles files, so that all files that can change at runtime and must be
> > backed up are in one place.
>
> ATM the content and access-control storage directories are not related,
> for instance you can share a user base across multiple publications.
> I'm not sure if we need this flexibility, or if it is sufficient to
> configure a single "storage base" for a Lenya web application.
>
>
> I'd like something like this:
>
> * All configuration files use something like
>
> <parameter name="configuration"
> value="aggregate-fallback://%STORE%/ac/usecase-policies.xml"/>
>
> * You can set the store location in publication.xconf:
>
> store=/home/alice/lenya-store
>
> * The %STORE% placeholder is replaced by the build process
>
>
> The disadvantage is that you'd have to configure a list of
> config files (or directories) to patch in the build process,
> but I could live with that.
>
This sounds great to me. But I wonder if the %STORE% replacement
wouldn't be better as a runtime setting rather than requiring a build?
>
> -- Andreas
>
>
> > it's a little awkward currently, because you
> > need to specify the locations in more than one file, whereas in most
> > sane usecases i can think of you would want them all in one place...
> >
> > plus ac is per-publication, so it would make sense imo to fold the stuff
> > into publication.xconf, but as i said, i don't care that much about this
> > particular point.
> >
> > i'll resync my branch with the trunk tomorrow and do some testing, and
> > then we can discuss whether it's fit to be merged at this point.
> >
> >> But we might move ac.xconf one directory up to <pub>/config
> >> to give it more visibility. Many config files in one specific
> >> directory might be better than a single large one.
> >>
> >> What do the others think?
> >>
> >> -- Andreas
> >>
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Re: [1.4] Merge ac.xconf into publication.xconf? (was: [Vote] Release
1.4 RC1)
Posted by Joern Nettingsmeier <ne...@folkwang-hochschule.de>.
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Joern Nettingsmeier schrieb:
>> i forgot:
>>
>> in the future, we should aim for a separation of program logic
>> (including java code, sitemaps and other cocoon stuff as well as
>> configuration) and content or data (including ac user/group data and
>> usecase permissions), for three reasons:
>>
>> * security: the servlet container should not have write access to the
>> webapp code, but it does need to write data at runtime.
>>
>> * ease of backup: the user should not be forced to backup program code
>> that can easily be re-build, nor make special provisions to exclude it.
>> hence, all data should be grouped together or at least be groupable.
>>
>> * separation of logic and data is just Correct(tm), and the j2ee webapp
>> slimeball is Wrong(tm). users who want everything in one easily
>> deployable but ugly WAR-file can still do so by configuring their
>> storage accordingly.
>>
>>
>> specifically, this means that ac/password, ac/policies and
>> usecase-policies.xml should not be under config/ but under a "store"
>> directory by default, along with the content repository.
>
> Ultimately, with the current architecture, the whole publication
> directory would belong there since publications can be added during
> runtime ...
true. it would also help lenya admins a lot if sitemaps etc did not
require re-deployment after changes but be read from the content-dir
location directly and not be copied into the webapp directory.
> With 1.4 ante portas (hopefully) we have to draw the line somewhere
> for the moment. Experience tells that these changes have to be tested
> thoroughly on different OSs, and I have to admit I wouldn't like to
> open another construction site.
absolutely.
i just meant to bring up some general directions that we might consider
in future changes...
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Re: [1.4] Merge ac.xconf into publication.xconf? (was: [Vote] Release
1.4 RC1)
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Joern Nettingsmeier schrieb:
> i forgot:
>
> in the future, we should aim for a separation of program logic
> (including java code, sitemaps and other cocoon stuff as well as
> configuration) and content or data (including ac user/group data and
> usecase permissions), for three reasons:
>
> * security: the servlet container should not have write access to the
> webapp code, but it does need to write data at runtime.
>
> * ease of backup: the user should not be forced to backup program code
> that can easily be re-build, nor make special provisions to exclude it.
> hence, all data should be grouped together or at least be groupable.
>
> * separation of logic and data is just Correct(tm), and the j2ee webapp
> slimeball is Wrong(tm). users who want everything in one easily
> deployable but ugly WAR-file can still do so by configuring their
> storage accordingly.
>
>
> specifically, this means that ac/password, ac/policies and
> usecase-policies.xml should not be under config/ but under a "store"
> directory by default, along with the content repository.
Ultimately, with the current architecture, the whole publication
directory would belong there since publications can be added during
runtime ...
With 1.4 ante portas (hopefully) we have to draw the line somewhere
for the moment. Experience tells that these changes have to be tested
thoroughly on different OSs, and I have to admit I wouldn't like to
open another construction site.
I'd suggest to merge Joern's changes, leave the configuration as
it is, and add some documentation what files to change to use an
external store location.
After 1.4 we can talk about this again. And if we decide to change
the location of config files, it is proably possible to provide a
little Ant target to update the user's installation.
-- Andreas
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Re: [1.4] Merge ac.xconf into publication.xconf? (was: [Vote] Release
1.4 RC1)
Posted by Joern Nettingsmeier <ne...@folkwang-hochschule.de>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Joern Nettingsmeier wrote:
>
>> i forgot:
>>
>> in the future, we should aim for a separation of program logic
>> (including java code, sitemaps and other cocoon stuff as well as
>> configuration) and content or data (including ac user/group data and
>> usecase permissions), for three reasons:
>>
>> * security: the servlet container should not have write access to the
>> webapp code, but it does need to write data at runtime.
>>
>> * ease of backup: the user should not be forced to backup program code
>> that can easily be re-build, nor make special provisions to exclude
>> it. hence, all data should be grouped together or at least be groupable.
>>
>> * separation of logic and data is just Correct(tm), and the j2ee
>> webapp slimeball is Wrong(tm). users who want everything in one easily
>> deployable but ugly WAR-file can still do so by configuring their
>> storage accordingly.
>>
>>
>> specifically, this means that ac/password, ac/policies and
>> usecase-policies.xml should not be under config/ but under a "store"
>> directory by default, along with the content repository.
>
> very much agreed, but these should actually already be configurable, but
> I don't remember correctly
true, but right now, it's ugly by default and requires the user to
re-organize it manually. i'd prefer the default publication to honor
separation of code and logic out-of-the-box some day. for most users,
it's better that way, and for people who depend on all-in-one WAR
deployments, some documentation can be added easily.
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Re: [1.4] Merge ac.xconf into publication.xconf? (was: [Vote] Release
1.4 RC1)
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Joern Nettingsmeier wrote:
> i forgot:
>
> in the future, we should aim for a separation of program logic
> (including java code, sitemaps and other cocoon stuff as well as
> configuration) and content or data (including ac user/group data and
> usecase permissions), for three reasons:
>
> * security: the servlet container should not have write access to the
> webapp code, but it does need to write data at runtime.
>
> * ease of backup: the user should not be forced to backup program code
> that can easily be re-build, nor make special provisions to exclude
> it. hence, all data should be grouped together or at least be groupable.
>
> * separation of logic and data is just Correct(tm), and the j2ee
> webapp slimeball is Wrong(tm). users who want everything in one easily
> deployable but ugly WAR-file can still do so by configuring their
> storage accordingly.
>
>
> specifically, this means that ac/password, ac/policies and
> usecase-policies.xml should not be under config/ but under a "store"
> directory by default, along with the content repository.
very much agreed, but these should actually already be configurable, but
I don't remember correctly
Cheers
Michael
>
> wdyt?
>
>
>
>
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>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
+41 44 272 91 61
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Re: [1.4] Merge ac.xconf into publication.xconf? (was: [Vote] Release
1.4 RC1)
Posted by Joern Nettingsmeier <ne...@folkwang-hochschule.de>.
i forgot:
in the future, we should aim for a separation of program logic
(including java code, sitemaps and other cocoon stuff as well as
configuration) and content or data (including ac user/group data and
usecase permissions), for three reasons:
* security: the servlet container should not have write access to the
webapp code, but it does need to write data at runtime.
* ease of backup: the user should not be forced to backup program code
that can easily be re-build, nor make special provisions to exclude it.
hence, all data should be grouped together or at least be groupable.
* separation of logic and data is just Correct(tm), and the j2ee webapp
slimeball is Wrong(tm). users who want everything in one easily
deployable but ugly WAR-file can still do so by configuring their
storage accordingly.
specifically, this means that ac/password, ac/policies and
usecase-policies.xml should not be under config/ but under a "store"
directory by default, along with the content repository.
wdyt?
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Re: [1.4] Merge ac.xconf into publication.xconf? (was: [Vote] Release
1.4 RC1)
Posted by Joern Nettingsmeier <ne...@folkwang-hochschule.de>.
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Joern Nettingsmeier schrieb:
>> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>>> Hi Joern,
>>>
>>> Joern Nettingsmeier schrieb:
>>>> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>>>>> Hi Lenya devs,
>>>>>
>>>>> please cast your votes on a release of 1.4 release candidate 1.
>>>>>
>>>>> The vote will be open for 72 hours. If it passes, a code freeze
>>>>> will be announced.
>>>> drat. i'm all for a rc, but i still haven't merged my branch... i
>>>> think they make the configuration a lot nicer and i'd love to see
>>>> them go in...
>>>>
>>>> problem is: * i think the publication.xconf should be extended to
>>>> include ac configuration as well, but this is not done yet.
>>> I'm not sure if this is really a good idea. We might end up
>>> with a quite large config file. IMO it's more convenient to have
>>> small, dedicated config files.
>> i don't have particularly strong opinions about one big vs. many small
>> config files, but as it is now, we have some redundancy: when you
>> specify a <content-dir>, you will also want to redirect the passwd and
>> roles files, so that all files that can change at runtime and must be
>> backed up are in one place.
>
> ATM the content and access-control storage directories are not related,
> for instance you can share a user base across multiple publications.
> I'm not sure if we need this flexibility, or if it is sufficient to
> configure a single "storage base" for a Lenya web application.
>
>
> I'd like something like this:
>
> * All configuration files use something like
>
> <parameter name="configuration"
> value="aggregate-fallback://%STORE%/ac/usecase-policies.xml"/>
>
> * You can set the store location in publication.xconf:
>
> store=/home/alice/lenya-store
>
> * The %STORE% placeholder is replaced by the build process
generally i like the idea, but i'm with bob here in that we should not
introduce the need for an extra build if we might as well make it
hot-deployable.
if we do decide it should be a build-time patch, let's call it @store@
for consistency with the other macros already in use.
btw, i like the idea of a generic "store" better than that of a
"content-dir" because it can contain both content and ac.
the way i see it is
@store-basedir@/
content
ac
work
...
how about this:
introduce a <store-basedir src=""/> setting.
if it is a relative path, it's relative to the webapp directory
re-define <content-dir src=""/> slightly:
if it is a relative path, it's relative to <store-basedir/>
introduce ac settings that are also relative to <store-basedir> if not
absolute.
additionally, it would be great if all the more advanced source
factories such as aggregate-fallback could also be used in a meaningful way.
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Re: [1.4] Merge ac.xconf into publication.xconf? (was: [Vote] Release
1.4 RC1)
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Joern Nettingsmeier schrieb:
> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>> Hi Joern,
>>
>> Joern Nettingsmeier schrieb:
>>> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>>>> Hi Lenya devs,
>>>>
>>>> please cast your votes on a release of 1.4 release candidate 1.
>>>>
>>>> The vote will be open for 72 hours. If it passes, a code freeze
>>>> will be announced.
>>> drat. i'm all for a rc, but i still haven't merged my branch... i
>>> think they make the configuration a lot nicer and i'd love to see
>>> them go in...
>>>
>>> problem is: * i think the publication.xconf should be extended to
>>> include ac configuration as well, but this is not done yet.
>>
>> I'm not sure if this is really a good idea. We might end up
>> with a quite large config file. IMO it's more convenient to have
>> small, dedicated config files.
>
> i don't have particularly strong opinions about one big vs. many small
> config files, but as it is now, we have some redundancy: when you
> specify a <content-dir>, you will also want to redirect the passwd and
> roles files, so that all files that can change at runtime and must be
> backed up are in one place.
ATM the content and access-control storage directories are not related,
for instance you can share a user base across multiple publications.
I'm not sure if we need this flexibility, or if it is sufficient to
configure a single "storage base" for a Lenya web application.
I'd like something like this:
* All configuration files use something like
<parameter name="configuration"
value="aggregate-fallback://%STORE%/ac/usecase-policies.xml"/>
* You can set the store location in publication.xconf:
store=/home/alice/lenya-store
* The %STORE% placeholder is replaced by the build process
The disadvantage is that you'd have to configure a list of
config files (or directories) to patch in the build process,
but I could live with that.
-- Andreas
> it's a little awkward currently, because you
> need to specify the locations in more than one file, whereas in most
> sane usecases i can think of you would want them all in one place...
>
> plus ac is per-publication, so it would make sense imo to fold the stuff
> into publication.xconf, but as i said, i don't care that much about this
> particular point.
>
> i'll resync my branch with the trunk tomorrow and do some testing, and
> then we can discuss whether it's fit to be merged at this point.
>
>> But we might move ac.xconf one directory up to <pub>/config
>> to give it more visibility. Many config files in one specific
>> directory might be better than a single large one.
>>
>> What do the others think?
>>
>> -- Andreas
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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Re: [1.4] Merge ac.xconf into publication.xconf? (was: [Vote] Release
1.4 RC1)
Posted by Jann Forrer <ja...@id.uzh.ch>.
Joern Nettingsmeier wrote:
> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>> Hi Joern,
>>
>> Joern Nettingsmeier schrieb:
>>> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>>>> Hi Lenya devs,
>>>>
>>>> please cast your votes on a release of 1.4 release candidate 1.
>>>>
>>>> The vote will be open for 72 hours. If it passes, a code freeze
>>>> will be announced.
>>> drat. i'm all for a rc, but i still haven't merged my branch... i
>>> think they make the configuration a lot nicer and i'd love to see
>>> them go in...
>>>
>>> problem is: * i think the publication.xconf should be extended to
>>> include ac configuration as well, but this is not done yet.
>>
>> I'm not sure if this is really a good idea. We might end up
>> with a quite large config file. IMO it's more convenient to have
>> small, dedicated config files.
>
> i don't have particularly strong opinions about one big vs. many small
> config files, but as it is now, we have some redundancy: when you
> specify a <content-dir>, you will also want to redirect the passwd and
> roles files, so that all files that can change at runtime and must be
> backed up are in one place. it's a little awkward currently, because you
> need to specify the locations in more than one file, whereas in most
> sane usecases i can think of you would want them all in one place...
>
I prefer smaller config files, especially if they have descriptive
names. Nevertheless I think we should use a single file if it is easier
to get rid of redundancy this way.
Jann
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Re: [1.4] Merge ac.xconf into publication.xconf? (was: [Vote] Release
1.4 RC1)
Posted by Joern Nettingsmeier <ne...@folkwang-hochschule.de>.
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Hi Joern,
>
> Joern Nettingsmeier schrieb:
>> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>>> Hi Lenya devs,
>>>
>>> please cast your votes on a release of 1.4 release candidate 1.
>>>
>>> The vote will be open for 72 hours. If it passes, a code freeze
>>> will be announced.
>> drat. i'm all for a rc, but i still haven't merged my branch... i
>> think they make the configuration a lot nicer and i'd love to see
>> them go in...
>>
>> problem is: * i think the publication.xconf should be extended to
>> include ac configuration as well, but this is not done yet.
>
> I'm not sure if this is really a good idea. We might end up
> with a quite large config file. IMO it's more convenient to have
> small, dedicated config files.
i don't have particularly strong opinions about one big vs. many small
config files, but as it is now, we have some redundancy: when you
specify a <content-dir>, you will also want to redirect the passwd and
roles files, so that all files that can change at runtime and must be
backed up are in one place. it's a little awkward currently, because you
need to specify the locations in more than one file, whereas in most
sane usecases i can think of you would want them all in one place...
plus ac is per-publication, so it would make sense imo to fold the stuff
into publication.xconf, but as i said, i don't care that much about this
particular point.
i'll resync my branch with the trunk tomorrow and do some testing, and
then we can discuss whether it's fit to be merged at this point.
> But we might move ac.xconf one directory up to <pub>/config
> to give it more visibility. Many config files in one specific
> directory might be better than a single large one.
>
> What do the others think?
>
> -- Andreas
>
>
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>
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