Re: Tapestry 5 Discussions

[Danny Angus <Da...@slc.co.uk>]

> I had no idea so many businesses were supportive of and had chosen
tapestry
> as their technology basis. Does that mean you guys are all going to pool
> together to help fund the development of a T4->T5 extension library which
> I've already said I'll be working on?
>
> Or....Do you guys only pool together when it comes to telling us what/how
we
> should do our free work?

Oh *please* my company is supportive of Open Source software in general and
the ASF in particular, I'm not telling you what or how you should do your
"free work", that isn't how open source works and well you know it. What I
am doing is expressing my opinion in a public forum. I am entiled to do
that.

Whether or not you choose to listen to the opinions of your users is up to
you, but I would encourage you not to start slagging them off, it could
backfire on you. If you want to encourage these users to collaborate on
resolving the issues we're concerned about then I would humbly suggest that
you do so in a less antagonistic manner.

If Howard was a little more diplomatic in his pronouncements then this
whole nonsense could have been resolved before it started, please don't
make it worse by making statements like the things you just said. Tapestry,
as a project, can choose to alienate some or all of its users if you want
it to. I would hope that you guys would be mature enough to choose to
encourage and support a self-sustaining community to grow around Tapestry,
not raze it to the ground every time you choose to make a revolutionary
change to the product.

Revolution vs Evolution is an old debate, and Jakarta (I know you're not
part of it any longer) has seen notable successes and notable failures of
both approaches since I was first involved, and I'm certainly not saying
that revolution is the wrong way for Tapestry. What I am saying is that I
believe that it is in the interest of the project to understand, and at
least consider, the needs of larger less-flexible users, the pay back may
be less tangible and take longer to achieve but case studies and
testimonials from respected government and blue chip users can translate
into currency in the marketplace which no amount of free PR could buy you,
there is no better advert for your product than happy users, and once we
have built our internal expertise we could probably, between us, contribute
code to tapestry at a rate that might even approach Howard's.

My message is simple; If you guys make me feel that your project is not
_too_ risky a choice for my company I *will*, in return, publicise the
sucesses we've had. And if you slow down the rate of revolution we *will*
be able to start to feed back relevant issues, patches, and hopefully more
significant contributions. We have written our own implementations of some
core interfaces to resolve issues, but there doesn't seem to be much point
in contributing them when 3 isn't even in subversion, and the dev list is
already hard at work on completely incompatible version 5.

The main reason we can't do more right now is that we are faced with a
future where we are looking at planning, scheduling and getting funds for
upgrading (Because of our own timetable of work, which is planned a year in
advance, we're only now ready to consider the move from 3 to 4 never mind
to five) and once we do upgrade we have to start our teams on a new
learning curve, that results in lower productivity which we *can* put a
cost on, and it erodes some of the benefits we hoped to gain from Tapestry
at the start, this in turn makes our bosses question the wisdom of the
choice making it harder still to justify investing in Tapestry. We want to
be experts and we want to help move Tapestry forward to better meet our
needs and the needs of those like us in the ways we know (as geeks) that it
can, but we won't manage it unless you consider makeing it easier for us to
catch up and keep up with you.

d.






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