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Posted to user@lenya.apache.org by Danny Bols <db...@osirion.be> on 2003/10/20 13:41:44 UTC
Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Hi all,
the current (default) implementation of Lenya's repository and navigation
framework doesn't suite our needs. No problem we thought, since Lenay is a
framework we can build our own implementations of it. Reading the API we
were happy to see the interfaces for Document, DocumentBuilder,
DocumentIdToPathMapper etc. But diving deeper into the core code we were
astonished to see that there was no way of making our own implementations!
Isn't Lenya extensible after all?
A few examples:
- The default implementations of the Document and DocumentBuilder are hard
coded in the core java components of Lenya!
- The source for the navigation framework (sitetree.xml) is hard coded in
the core sitemaps of Lenya and we see no possibility to extend the schema
for it!
- The Default implementations of the DocumentBuilder and Document lean
strong upon the fact that each document has an entry in the sitetree.xml!
The document.exist() method doesn't even look in the filesystem for a
document but will only check if there is an entry sitetree! I thought the
sitetree was about building menu's, tabs and breadcrumbs or is it becoming
an new kind of index-file for the repository?
I hope you can correct me and tell me that my conclusions aren't right?
I would be pleased to hear what the vision/ideas/plans are about the
extensibility of Lenya?
How about considering using the Avalon principals and implementing an Avalon
container? (I know Cocoon is currently trying to replace ECM by Fortress)
Regards,
Danny Bols
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Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
>>>sure, that sounds reasonable. feel like sending a patch?
>>
>>Yep, no problem. How should I send one? Are there any rules/guidelines for
>>sending in a patch?
>
>
> unified diff is fine. i guess people are expected to use bugzilla for
> patches, at least that's what cocoon does.
No expectations/requirements here - you're free to manage this as you
please (and can manage). In Cocoon, we're just deferring people to
Bugzilla for patches since we sometimes lose track of them.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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RE: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@wyona.com>.
>> sure, that sounds reasonable. feel like sending a patch?
> Yep, no problem. How should I send one? Are there any rules/guidelines for
> sending in a patch?
unified diff is fine. i guess people are expected to use bugzilla for
patches, at least that's what cocoon does.
>> cocoon-dev. a recent thread about redoing the docs. however, as michael
>> said little concrete came out of it. the intersection of IA and dev
>> people
>> is unfortunately rather small at this point.
> Ok, thanks for the tip. Where does IA stand for?
buzzword. information architecture. http://argus-acia.com/ is a starting
point, or the lovely http://boxesandarrows.com
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Danny Bols wrote:
[...]
>>Of course this requires a different implementation of the
>>sitetree classes, otherwise the "foreign" attributes and
>>elements might get lost when nodes are moved around. And
>>when a document is created, the appropriate attributes and
>>elements have to be inserted.
>
>
> I agree, but wouldn't that be the responsibilty of the publication?
Yes.
> In my
> situation I am considering of not using the SiteTree classes but only making
> use of (and extending) the navigation functionality which Lenay has to
> offer. In order to do that I must be able to extent the sitetree (in my own
> namespace).
OK. But if you want to use the site management functions,
I think you have to write your own sitetree implementation
(probably extending the DefaultSiteTree).
-- Andreas
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RE: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Danny Bols <db...@osirion.be>.
Andreas Hartmann
>
>
> Danny Bols wrote:
>
> >
> > Do you have any objections in doing that? For example:
> >
> > <node id="home" myns:tab="true" myns:hidden="false">
> > <label xml:lang="en">Home</label>
> > <myns:tooltip xml:lang="en">Go Home</myns:tooltip>
> > </node>
>
> Looks very useful to me, but I would replace
>
> myns:hidden="false" (inverse logic)
>
> with
>
> myns:visible="true"
Yep, you are right.
> Of course this requires a different implementation of the
> sitetree classes, otherwise the "foreign" attributes and
> elements might get lost when nodes are moved around. And
> when a document is created, the appropriate attributes and
> elements have to be inserted.
I agree, but wouldn't that be the responsibilty of the publication? In my
situation I am considering of not using the SiteTree classes but only making
use of (and extending) the navigation functionality which Lenay has to
offer. In order to do that I must be able to extent the sitetree (in my own
namespace).
---
Danny
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Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Danny Bols wrote:
>
> Do you have any objections in doing that? For example:
>
> <node id="home" myns:tab="true" myns:hidden="false">
> <label xml:lang="en">Home</label>
> <myns:tooltip xml:lang="en">Go Home</myns:tooltip>
> </node>
Looks very useful to me, but I would replace
myns:hidden="false" (inverse logic)
with
myns:visible="true"
Of course this requires a different implementation of the
sitetree classes, otherwise the "foreign" attributes and
elements might get lost when nodes are moved around. And
when a document is created, the appropriate attributes and
elements have to be inserted.
-- Andreas
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RE: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Danny Bols <db...@osirion.be>.
Andreas Hartmann
> Sent: vrijdag 24 oktober 2003 11:57
> To: lenya-user@cocoon.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
>
>
> Danny Bols wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >>>Do you know if it Is possible to pass non-sitetree-namespace
> >>>attributes/sutags without a namespace declaration?
> >>
> >>We just have to add
> >>
> >><xsl:copy-of select="@*[namespace-uri() != 'http://...sitetree/1.0']"/>
> >><xsl:copy-of select="*[namespace-uri() != 'http://...sitetree/1.0']"/>
> >
> > Great ! This works !
> >
> > Because the current sitetree makes use of non-namespaced (it's almost
> > spacecake ;-) attributes we should avoid copying those and others which
> > don't have a namespace. Something like:
> >
> > <xsl:copy-of select="@*[namespace-uri() != '' and namespace-uri() !=
> > 'http://apache.org/cocoon/lenya/sitetree/1.0']"/>
>
> Yes, you're right. I think it would be sufficient to do
>
> <xsl:copy-of select="@*[namespace-uri() != '']"/>
> <xsl:copy-of select="*[namespace-uri() != 'http://...sitetree/1.0']"/>
>
> because we probably won't introduce any attributes in the sitetree
> namespace, will we?
Do you have any objections in doing that? For example:
<node id="home" myns:tab="true" myns:hidden="false">
<label xml:lang="en">Home</label>
<myns:tooltip xml:lang="en">Go Home</myns:tooltip>
</node>
---
Danny
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Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Danny Bols wrote:
[...]
>>>Do you know if it Is possible to pass non-sitetree-namespace
>>>attributes/sutags without a namespace declaration?
>>
>>We just have to add
>>
>><xsl:copy-of select="@*[namespace-uri() != 'http://...sitetree/1.0']"/>
>><xsl:copy-of select="*[namespace-uri() != 'http://...sitetree/1.0']"/>
>
> Great ! This works !
>
> Because the current sitetree makes use of non-namespaced (it's almost
> spacecake ;-) attributes we should avoid copying those and others which
> don't have a namespace. Something like:
>
> <xsl:copy-of select="@*[namespace-uri() != '' and namespace-uri() !=
> 'http://apache.org/cocoon/lenya/sitetree/1.0']"/>
Yes, you're right. I think it would be sufficient to do
<xsl:copy-of select="@*[namespace-uri() != '']"/>
<xsl:copy-of select="*[namespace-uri() != 'http://...sitetree/1.0']"/>
because we probably won't introduce any attributes in the sitetree
namespace, will we?
> I look forward to this enhancement...should I send a patch for this?
That would be great. Thanks!
-- Andreas
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RE: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Danny Bols <db...@osirion.be>.
Andreas Hartmann
> Sent: vrijdag 24 oktober 2003 10:57
> To: lenya-user@cocoon.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
>
>
> Danny Bols wrote:
>
> > Andreas, I've been looking a bit further in the
> sitetree2nav.xsl and I think
> > the only proper solution is what you suggested to pas only
> > non-sitetree-namespace attributes/subtags. Otherwise there would be a
> > possible risk of running into name clashes.
> >
> > Do you know if it Is possible to pass non-sitetree-namespace
> > attributes/sutags without a namespace declaration?
>
> We just have to add
>
> <xsl:copy-of select="@*[namespace-uri() != 'http://...sitetree/1.0']"/>
> <xsl:copy-of select="*[namespace-uri() != 'http://...sitetree/1.0']"/>
Great ! This works !
Because the current sitetree makes use of non-namespaced (it's almost
spacecake ;-) attributes we should avoid copying those and others which
don't have a namespace. Something like:
<xsl:copy-of select="@*[namespace-uri() != '' and namespace-uri() !=
'http://apache.org/cocoon/lenya/sitetree/1.0']"/>
I look forward to this enhancement...should I send a patch for this?
---
Danny
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Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Danny Bols wrote:
> Andreas, I've been looking a bit further in the sitetree2nav.xsl and I think
> the only proper solution is what you suggested to pas only
> non-sitetree-namespace attributes/subtags. Otherwise there would be a
> possible risk of running into name clashes.
>
> Do you know if it Is possible to pass non-sitetree-namespace
> attributes/sutags without a namespace declaration?
We just have to add
<xsl:copy-of select="@*[namespace-uri() != 'http://...sitetree/1.0']"/>
<xsl:copy-of select="*[namespace-uri() != 'http://...sitetree/1.0']"/>
-- Andreas
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RE: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Danny Bols <db...@osirion.be>.
Andreas Hartmann
> Sent: dinsdag 21 oktober 2003 10:17
> To: lenya-user@cocoon.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
>
>
> Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
>
> >>Since we don't have a proper solution for this at the moment I would be
> >>very
> >>happy if the sitetree2nav.xsl would pass also extra attributes
> and subtags
> >>added in a sitetree. This would allow us to make some extensions to the
> >>current sitetree which would suite our needs for the time being.
> >
> >
> > sure, that sounds reasonable. feel like sending a patch?
>
> I would be careful here. Do we really want a "free evolution"
> of the sitetree schema?
I agree....no free eveolution of the sitetree DTD
> Danny, how about putting the attributes in a custom namespace?
> I wouldn't mind forwarding all non-sitetree-namespace attributes.
Andreas, I've been looking a bit further in the sitetree2nav.xsl and I think
the only proper solution is what you suggested to pas only
non-sitetree-namespace attributes/subtags. Otherwise there would be a
possible risk of running into name clashes.
Do you know if it Is possible to pass non-sitetree-namespace
attributes/sutags without a namespace declaration?
---
Danny
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Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
>>Since we don't have a proper solution for this at the moment I would be
>>very
>>happy if the sitetree2nav.xsl would pass also extra attributes and subtags
>>added in a sitetree. This would allow us to make some extensions to the
>>current sitetree which would suite our needs for the time being.
>
>
> sure, that sounds reasonable. feel like sending a patch?
I would be careful here. Do we really want a "free evolution"
of the sitetree schema?
Danny, how about putting the attributes in a custom namespace?
I wouldn't mind forwarding all non-sitetree-namespace attributes.
-- Andreas
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RE: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Danny Bols <db...@osirion.be>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gregor J. Rothfuss [mailto:gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com]
> Sent: maandag 20 oktober 2003 21:05
> To: Lenya Users List
> Subject: RE: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
>
>
> > Since we don't have a proper solution for this at the moment I would be
> > very
> > happy if the sitetree2nav.xsl would pass also extra attributes
> and subtags
> > added in a sitetree. This would allow us to make some extensions to the
> > current sitetree which would suite our needs for the time being.
>
> sure, that sounds reasonable. feel like sending a patch?
Yep, no problem. How should I send one? Are there any rules/guidelines for
sending in a patch?
> >> Just take a look at the whole topic map dicussions and IA
> discussions in
> >> general. Although many of them don't lead to anything concrete, but
> >> there is a lot of value in them and I strongly think Lenya should take
> >> care of this.
> >
> > Michael, where can I read about these discussions?
>
> cocoon-dev. a recent thread about redoing the docs. however, as michael
> said little concrete came out of it. the intersection of IA and dev people
> is unfortunately rather small at this point.
Ok, thanks for the tip. Where does IA stand for?
--
Danny
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RE: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@wyona.com>.
> Since we don't have a proper solution for this at the moment I would be
> very
> happy if the sitetree2nav.xsl would pass also extra attributes and subtags
> added in a sitetree. This would allow us to make some extensions to the
> current sitetree which would suite our needs for the time being.
sure, that sounds reasonable. feel like sending a patch?
>> Just take a look at the whole topic map dicussions and IA discussions in
>> general. Although many of them don't lead to anything concrete, but
>> there is a lot of value in them and I strongly think Lenya should take
>> care of this.
>
> Michael, where can I read about these discussions?
cocoon-dev. a recent thread about redoing the docs. however, as michael
said little concrete came out of it. the intersection of IA and dev people
is unfortunately rather small at this point.
-gregor
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.org>.
Danny Bols wrote:
<snip />
>
>
>>Just take a look at the whole topic map dicussions and IA discussions in
>>general. Although many of them don't lead to anything concrete, but
>>there is a lot of value in them and I strongly think Lenya should take
>>care of this.
>>
>>
>
>Michael, where can I read about these discussions?
>
Just use Google and type "topic maps" or "information architecture" (IA)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Topic+maps+information+architecture&btnG=Google+Search
and you will find plenty of theories and discussions.
btw, I wasn't refering to the thread at Cocoon Dev
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.text.xml.cocoon.devel/24336
because the thread was running faster than me and just wasn't able to
catch up with it.
But I hope to find some time and actually read it.
HTH
Michi
>
>
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>
>
>
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RE: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Danny Bols <d....@skynet.be>.
Michael Wechner
>
> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> > Hi Danny,
> >
>
>
> <snip />
>
> >
> >
> >> - The source for the navigation framework (sitetree.xml) is
> hard coded in
> >> the core sitemaps of Lenya and we see no possibility to extend
> the schema
> >> for it!
> >
> >
> > We (especially Michael) are bothered about the whole sitetree concept.
>
> the sitetree itself isn't the problem, but that it is kind of hardcoded
> into the core and hence makes it a necessity for certain features. A
> publication doesn't need necessarily a sitetree, because it's just one
> possibility among others to "arrange" and "find" documents.
I am glad to read that your ideas are the same as ours about the sitemap
concept. A publication should be able to implement a different way to handle
documents.
Since we don't have a proper solution for this at the moment I would be very
happy if the sitetree2nav.xsl would pass also extra attributes and subtags
added in a sitetree. This would allow us to make some extensions to the
current sitetree which would suite our needs for the time being.
> Just take a look at the whole topic map dicussions and IA discussions in
> general. Although many of them don't lead to anything concrete, but
> there is a lot of value in them and I strongly think Lenya should take
> care of this.
Michael, where can I read about these discussions?
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Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.org>.
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Hi Danny,
>
<snip />
>
>
>> - The source for the navigation framework (sitetree.xml) is hard coded in
>> the core sitemaps of Lenya and we see no possibility to extend the schema
>> for it!
>
>
> We (especially Michael) are bothered about the whole sitetree concept.
the sitetree itself isn't the problem, but that it is kind of hardcoded
into the core and hence makes it a necessity for certain features. A
publication doesn't need necessarily a sitetree, because it's just one
possibility among others to "arrange" and "find" documents.
Just take a look at the whole topic map dicussions and IA discussions in
general. Although many of them don't lead to anything concrete, but
there is a lot of value in them and I strongly think Lenya should take
care of this.
<snip />
>
> IMHO everyone of us should make familiar with the Avalon concepts.
> We're using Avalon components for access control and in some other
> areas, and I had very pleasing experiences with the framework.
>
> So, from me a +1 in diving deeper into Avalon and applying its
> concepts to the publication framework.
+1
Thanks
Michi
>
> Again, thanks a lot for raising these issues!
>
> -- Andreas
>
>
>
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>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Ltd. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Andreas Hartmann said:
>
>
>>We (especially Michael) are bothered about the whole sitetree concept.
>>I (the navigation framework was mainly designed by me) don't see
>>it as "the way to go" when designing components, but rather as
>>a utility when building sitetree-based publications.
>>
>>If we find a more general representation of the information
>>structure (this is worth another thread), we can discuss if it
>>is possible to find a suitable navigation framework implementation.
>
> i don't see what is wrong with the sitetree for the 1.x release. it is
> clearly the best approach currently at hand. come 2.0 time, we can redo it
> for sure, but for now it is what we have. it sure beats the one-offs that
> are going on in other publications.
+1 for deferring the sitetree issue
-- Andreas
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Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.org>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Andreas Hartmann said:
>
>
>
> again, this is the current state. before we go off redesigning, lets ship
> 1.2.
+1 , but I think we should plan this for 1.3 or 1.4
Thanks
Michi
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Ltd. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@wyona.com>.
Andreas Hartmann said:
> We (especially Michael) are bothered about the whole sitetree concept.
> I (the navigation framework was mainly designed by me) don't see
> it as "the way to go" when designing components, but rather as
> a utility when building sitetree-based publications.
>
> If we find a more general representation of the information
> structure (this is worth another thread), we can discuss if it
> is possible to find a suitable navigation framework implementation.
i don't see what is wrong with the sitetree for the 1.x release. it is
clearly the best approach currently at hand. come 2.0 time, we can redo it
for sure, but for now it is what we have. it sure beats the one-offs that
are going on in other publications.
>> - The Default implementations of the DocumentBuilder and Document lean
>> strong upon the fact that each document has an entry in the
>> sitetree.xml!
>
> Yes, a frequently critizised fact (e.g., Michael isn't pleased with
> it at all).
again, this is the current state. before we go off redesigning, lets ship
1.2.
> IMHO everyone of us should make familiar with the Avalon concepts.
> We're using Avalon components for access control and in some other
> areas, and I had very pleasing experiences with the framework.
i think we have some components in lenya that would work as cocoon blocks.
a good starting point for detailed 2.0 discussions would be to identify
the ones that we should move over to general cocoon.
> So, from me a +1 in diving deeper into Avalon and applying its
> concepts to the publication framework.
+1
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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RE: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Danny Bols <db...@osirion.be>.
Andreas Hartmann
>
> Danny Bols wrote:
>
> > I hope you can correct me and tell me that my conclusions aren't right?
> > I would be pleased to hear what the vision/ideas/plans are about the
> > extensibility of Lenya?
> > How about considering using the Avalon principals and
> implementing an Avalon
> > container? (I know Cocoon is currently trying to replace ECM by
> Fortress)
>
> IMHO everyone of us should make familiar with the Avalon concepts.
> We're using Avalon components for access control and in some other
> areas, and I had very pleasing experiences with the framework.
>
> So, from me a +1 in diving deeper into Avalon and applying its
> concepts to the publication framework.
>
> Again, thanks a lot for raising these issues!
>
> -- Andreas
Andreas,
I was very happy to read your comments. Honestly...I was kinda desperate
here...and I am glad that these issues are properly addressed now (i guess
this is proper English). I also understand that we first have to walk before
we can run and that re-engineering does take a lot of time and effort.
It still leaves us stuck though with the current behaviour of the Document
components :-( We are going to look a bit further into detail now for a
proper solution without having to say goodbye to Lenya. I'll keep you
updated on that.
Cheers,
Danny
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Re: Is Lenya an extensible framework?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Hi Danny,
Danny Bols wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> the current (default) implementation of Lenya's repository and navigation
> framework doesn't suite our needs. No problem we thought, since Lenay is a
> framework we can build our own implementations of it. Reading the API we
> were happy to see the interfaces for Document, DocumentBuilder,
> DocumentIdToPathMapper etc. But diving deeper into the core code we were
> astonished to see that there was no way of making our own implementations!
> Isn't Lenya extensible after all?
I'm very glad you're addressing this topic
(is this correct English? :) ), because it's bothering me for
quite a long time now. Of course, when the interfaces in
org.apache.lenya.publication were designed, we had in mind to
allow specific implementations. But it was a somehow half-baken
approach as we didn't provide the corresponding configuration
options (except for the DocumentIdToPathMapper in publication.xconf).
>
> A few examples:
> - The default implementations of the Document and DocumentBuilder are hard
> coded in the core java components of Lenya!
Yes, and it is bad and has to be changed ASAP.
> - The source for the navigation framework (sitetree.xml) is hard coded in
> the core sitemaps of Lenya and we see no possibility to extend the schema
> for it!
We (especially Michael) are bothered about the whole sitetree concept.
I (the navigation framework was mainly designed by me) don't see
it as "the way to go" when designing components, but rather as
a utility when building sitetree-based publications.
If we find a more general representation of the information
structure (this is worth another thread), we can discuss if it
is possible to find a suitable navigation framework implementation.
> - The Default implementations of the DocumentBuilder and Document lean
> strong upon the fact that each document has an entry in the sitetree.xml!
Yes, a frequently critizised fact (e.g., Michael isn't pleased with
it at all).
> The document.exist() method doesn't even look in the filesystem for a
> document but will only check if there is an entry sitetree!
This is for performance reasons.
I thought the
> sitetree was about building menu's, tabs and breadcrumbs or is it becoming
> an new kind of index-file for the repository?
At the moment, it's both.
> I hope you can correct me and tell me that my conclusions aren't right?
> I would be pleased to hear what the vision/ideas/plans are about the
> extensibility of Lenya?
> How about considering using the Avalon principals and implementing an Avalon
> container? (I know Cocoon is currently trying to replace ECM by Fortress)
IMHO everyone of us should make familiar with the Avalon concepts.
We're using Avalon components for access control and in some other
areas, and I had very pleasing experiences with the framework.
So, from me a +1 in diving deeper into Avalon and applying its
concepts to the publication framework.
Again, thanks a lot for raising these issues!
-- Andreas
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