[s1] Automated snapshots?

[Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org>]

Can we get the same system setup to create automated snapshot builds for 
Struts 1? I am willing to help out.

Also do we have a policy about advertising snapshots on the Struts web 
site? I think it's a liability for only us to do the testing; we simply 
need the larger audience to help test out early builds.

Paul

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Re: [s1] Automated snapshots?

[Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>]

On 3/15/07, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:
>  > On 3/14/07, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>  >> Some people consider that making a link available on the web
>  >> site at all should not be permitted. With that in mind, I am
>  >> very much against making them any more visible than they are
>  >> now.
>
> Are you referring to someone's personal interpretation, or an official
> ASF Policy? Because if ASF says don't allow any test builds, then we
> should remove the test builds (no questions asked), otherwise we're
> interpolating a moving yardstick. If, as Ted says, it undermines the
> legal shield of ASF and PMC, then why not simply remove the test builds?
> I don't think it makes sense to allow yourself the room to post the
> builds, kind of justify it by burying it out of view, but also admit
> it's a liability.

See http://www.apache.org/dev/release.html

Niall

>  > As Martin said, some ASF members consider development builds harmful
>  > and recommend against posting any website links whatsoever.
>
> Based on what you and Martin have said, I must be being fooled by
> appearances. I say this because the Apache Tapestry has releases of
> unstable software, so I thought we weren't being as forthcoming with our
> development releases too:
>
> http://tapestry.apache.org/download.html
>
> Paul
>
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Re: [s1] Automated snapshots?

[Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org>]

 > On 3/14/07, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
 >> Some people consider that making a link available on the web
 >> site at all should not be permitted. With that in mind, I am
 >> very much against making them any more visible than they are
 >> now.

Are you referring to someone's personal interpretation, or an official 
ASF Policy? Because if ASF says don't allow any test builds, then we 
should remove the test builds (no questions asked), otherwise we're 
interpolating a moving yardstick. If, as Ted says, it undermines the 
legal shield of ASF and PMC, then why not simply remove the test builds? 
I don't think it makes sense to allow yourself the room to post the 
builds, kind of justify it by burying it out of view, but also admit 
it's a liability.

 > As Martin said, some ASF members consider development builds harmful
 > and recommend against posting any website links whatsoever.

Based on what you and Martin have said, I must be being fooled by 
appearances. I say this because the Apache Tapestry has releases of 
unstable software, so I thought we weren't being as forthcoming with our 
development releases too:

http://tapestry.apache.org/download.html

Paul

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Re: [s1] Automated snapshots?

[Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>]

On 3/14/07, Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> In my opinion, we are only borderline compliant today with the ASF-wide
> stipulation that non-release artifacts not be visible to non-developers.
> Some people consider that making a link available on the web site at all
> should not be permitted. With that in mind, I am very much against making
> them any more visible than they are now.

Agreed.

As Henri could attest :) , this has been discussed at length on other lists.

The argument is that posting development builds encourages projects to
become lazy about releases, and we tend to use nightlies as if they
were betas. (Mea culpa, Struts.)

Using nightlies for betas is a bad idea because the automated builds
are not expressly approved by the PMC. Distributing unapproved builds
to the general public undermines the legal shield created by the ASF
and the PMCs.

As Martin said, some ASF members consider development builds harmful
and recommend against posting any website links whatsoever.

-Ted.

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Re: [s1] Automated snapshots?

[Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>]

On 3/14/07, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Ted Husted wrote:
> > If the link is more prominent, then people will
> > confuse the development builds with alpha or beta releases, which they
> > are not.
>
> I believe this is untrue. If we were to refactor out the "Test Build"
> section onto its own page, and even put a conspicuous disclaimer on the
> page "This is not a release!", plus call the link "Test/Unreleased
> Builds" on the menu, there would be little or no problem. I don't buy
> that you have to bury and obfuscate the builds to ward off accidental
> downloads. As far as I am concerned, since I couldn't even find it, that
> was personal proof it's hidden beyond reason. I think the current
> approach is too conservative to the point of hindering curious
> volunteers. Opening it up a little may help, and I would gladly refactor
> out the page for you.


In my opinion, we are only borderline compliant today with the ASF-wide
stipulation that non-release artifacts not be visible to non-developers.
Some people consider that making a link available on the web site at all
should not be permitted. With that in mind, I am very much against making
them any more visible than they are now.

--
Martin Cooper


My 2 cents.. plus 2 more. :-)
> Paul
>
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Re: [s1] Automated snapshots?

[Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org>]

Ted Husted wrote:
> If the link is more prominent, then people will
> confuse the development builds with alpha or beta releases, which they
> are not. 

I believe this is untrue. If we were to refactor out the "Test Build" 
section onto its own page, and even put a conspicuous disclaimer on the 
page "This is not a release!", plus call the link "Test/Unreleased 
Builds" on the menu, there would be little or no problem. I don't buy 
that you have to bury and obfuscate the builds to ward off accidental 
downloads. As far as I am concerned, since I couldn't even find it, that 
was personal proof it's hidden beyond reason. I think the current 
approach is too conservative to the point of hindering curious 
volunteers. Opening it up a little may help, and I would gladly refactor 
out the page for you.

My 2 cents.. plus 2 more. :-)
Paul

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Re: [s1] Automated snapshots?

[Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>]

The link to the nightly builds is part of the source code page.

Again, we do *not* want people downloading the nightly builds unless
they are interested in contributing to the project. That type of
person is going to be looking for the source code too, so that's where
the link is kept. If the link is more prominent, then people will
confuse the development builds with alpha or beta releases, which they
are not. We are always looking for volunteers to help with
development, but we are not looking for an "audience" that might not
understand the difference between a nightly development build and a
beta release.

-Ted.

On 3/14/07, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:
> Ted,
>
> The layout is nice, but where is the link to download the test build?
> That's my point. I can't even find it just looking at the Development
> Build sub-section. If it had its own menu item underneath Development,
> that's the "strategic" position I am looking for.
>
> Paul
>
> Ted Husted wrote:
> > In the latest draft documents for Struts 2 (aka 2.0.7), we added a
> > development submenu to the main page.
> >
> > * http://struts.apache.org/2.x/index.html
> >
> > A key concept is that people who work with us on the nightly build are
> > no longer "an audience". They must be active and willing participants.
> > We don't want to confuse people who are just looking for a stable
> > release with the vagrancies of a development build. We need to make a
> > good faith effort to ensure that the people who do make use of the
> > development build realize that it is all subject to change, and some
> > nights it might not even build. We do want the links to be
> > "strategic," but strategic in the sense that a hapless passerby won't
> > stumble on to the development builds by mistake.
> >
> > We've been trying to do the nightly builds in the zone, but it seems
> > like success has been spotty. Back in the day, we used to build it
> > ourselves on our own machines and then upload the build as part of a
> > local nightly cron job.
> >
> > On 3/14/07, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> Marin,
> >>
> >> That's fine. We can always point to those builds from a developer page,
> >> but make the developer page also accessible from a non-developer page.
> >> That's how it is today, but we can just be more strategic in how to
> >> point to that page.
> >>
> >> But for the other question: how can we setup automated builds?
> >>
> >> Martin Cooper wrote:
> >> > On 3/14/07, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Can we get the same system setup to create automated snapshot
> >> builds for
> >> >> Struts 1? I am willing to help out.
> >> >>
> >> >> Also do we have a policy about advertising snapshots on the Struts
> >> web
> >> >> site? I think it's a liability for only us to do the testing; we
> >> simply
> >> >> need the larger audience to help test out early builds.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Any "advertising" of snapshots or other non-release artifacts must
> >> be done
> >> > in such a way as to be very clearly directed towards developers,
> >> and not
> >> > end
> >> > users, of Struts. That is, any page that mentions non-release
> >> artifacts
> >> > must
> >> > be reachable only through links in the "Development" section of the
> >> menu on
> >> > the Struts web site.
> >> >
> >> > This is an ASF-wide thing, and not just a Struts thing. It's also
> >> why the
> >> > web site was restructured, not so long ago, to separate out the
> >> development
> >> > pages from the rest of the site.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Martin Cooper
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Paul
> >
> > - HTH, Ted
> > <http://www.husted.com/ted/blog/>

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Re: [s1] Automated snapshots?

[Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org>]

Ted,

The layout is nice, but where is the link to download the test build? 
That's my point. I can't even find it just looking at the Development 
Build sub-section. If it had its own menu item underneath Development, 
that's the "strategic" position I am looking for.

Paul

Ted Husted wrote:
> In the latest draft documents for Struts 2 (aka 2.0.7), we added a
> development submenu to the main page.
>
> * http://struts.apache.org/2.x/index.html
>
> A key concept is that people who work with us on the nightly build are
> no longer "an audience". They must be active and willing participants.
> We don't want to confuse people who are just looking for a stable
> release with the vagrancies of a development build. We need to make a
> good faith effort to ensure that the people who do make use of the
> development build realize that it is all subject to change, and some
> nights it might not even build. We do want the links to be
> "strategic," but strategic in the sense that a hapless passerby won't
> stumble on to the development builds by mistake.
>
> We've been trying to do the nightly builds in the zone, but it seems
> like success has been spotty. Back in the day, we used to build it
> ourselves on our own machines and then upload the build as part of a
> local nightly cron job.
>
> On 3/14/07, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Marin,
>>
>> That's fine. We can always point to those builds from a developer page,
>> but make the developer page also accessible from a non-developer page.
>> That's how it is today, but we can just be more strategic in how to
>> point to that page.
>>
>> But for the other question: how can we setup automated builds?
>>
>> Martin Cooper wrote:
>> > On 3/14/07, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Can we get the same system setup to create automated snapshot 
>> builds for
>> >> Struts 1? I am willing to help out.
>> >>
>> >> Also do we have a policy about advertising snapshots on the Struts 
>> web
>> >> site? I think it's a liability for only us to do the testing; we 
>> simply
>> >> need the larger audience to help test out early builds.
>> >
>> >
>> > Any "advertising" of snapshots or other non-release artifacts must 
>> be done
>> > in such a way as to be very clearly directed towards developers, 
>> and not
>> > end
>> > users, of Struts. That is, any page that mentions non-release 
>> artifacts
>> > must
>> > be reachable only through links in the "Development" section of the 
>> menu on
>> > the Struts web site.
>> >
>> > This is an ASF-wide thing, and not just a Struts thing. It's also 
>> why the
>> > web site was restructured, not so long ago, to separate out the 
>> development
>> > pages from the rest of the site.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Martin Cooper
>> >
>> >
>> > Paul
>
> - HTH, Ted
> <http://www.husted.com/ted/blog/>
>


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Re: [s1] Automated snapshots?

[Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>]

In the latest draft documents for Struts 2 (aka 2.0.7), we added a
development submenu to the main page.

* http://struts.apache.org/2.x/index.html

A key concept is that people who work with us on the nightly build are
no longer "an audience". They must be active and willing participants.
We don't want to confuse people who are just looking for a stable
release with the vagrancies of a development build. We need to make a
good faith effort to ensure that the people who do make use of the
development build realize that it is all subject to change, and some
nights it might not even build. We do want the links to be
"strategic," but strategic in the sense that a hapless passerby won't
stumble on to the development builds by mistake.

We've been trying to do the nightly builds in the zone, but it seems
like success has been spotty. Back in the day, we used to build it
ourselves on our own machines and then upload the build as part of a
local nightly cron job.

On 3/14/07, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:
> Marin,
>
> That's fine. We can always point to those builds from a developer page,
> but make the developer page also accessible from a non-developer page.
> That's how it is today, but we can just be more strategic in how to
> point to that page.
>
> But for the other question: how can we setup automated builds?
>
> Martin Cooper wrote:
> > On 3/14/07, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Can we get the same system setup to create automated snapshot builds for
> >> Struts 1? I am willing to help out.
> >>
> >> Also do we have a policy about advertising snapshots on the Struts web
> >> site? I think it's a liability for only us to do the testing; we simply
> >> need the larger audience to help test out early builds.
> >
> >
> > Any "advertising" of snapshots or other non-release artifacts must be done
> > in such a way as to be very clearly directed towards developers, and not
> > end
> > users, of Struts. That is, any page that mentions non-release artifacts
> > must
> > be reachable only through links in the "Development" section of the menu on
> > the Struts web site.
> >
> > This is an ASF-wide thing, and not just a Struts thing. It's also why the
> > web site was restructured, not so long ago, to separate out the development
> > pages from the rest of the site.
> >
> > --
> > Martin Cooper
> >
> >
> > Paul

- HTH, Ted
<http://www.husted.com/ted/blog/>

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Re: [s1] Automated snapshots?

[Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org>]

Marin,

That's fine. We can always point to those builds from a developer page, 
but make the developer page also accessible from a non-developer page. 
That's how it is today, but we can just be more strategic in how to 
point to that page.

But for the other question: how can we setup automated builds?

Martin Cooper wrote:
> On 3/14/07, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Can we get the same system setup to create automated snapshot builds for
>> Struts 1? I am willing to help out.
>>
>> Also do we have a policy about advertising snapshots on the Struts web
>> site? I think it's a liability for only us to do the testing; we simply
>> need the larger audience to help test out early builds.
> 
> 
> Any "advertising" of snapshots or other non-release artifacts must be done
> in such a way as to be very clearly directed towards developers, and not 
> end
> users, of Struts. That is, any page that mentions non-release artifacts 
> must
> be reachable only through links in the "Development" section of the menu on
> the Struts web site.
> 
> This is an ASF-wide thing, and not just a Struts thing. It's also why the
> web site was restructured, not so long ago, to separate out the development
> pages from the rest of the site.
> 
> -- 
> Martin Cooper
> 
> 
> Paul
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
> 

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Re: [s1] Automated snapshots?

[Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>]

On 3/14/07, Paul Benedict <pb...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Can we get the same system setup to create automated snapshot builds for
> Struts 1? I am willing to help out.
>
> Also do we have a policy about advertising snapshots on the Struts web
> site? I think it's a liability for only us to do the testing; we simply
> need the larger audience to help test out early builds.


Any "advertising" of snapshots or other non-release artifacts must be done
in such a way as to be very clearly directed towards developers, and not end
users, of Struts. That is, any page that mentions non-release artifacts must
be reachable only through links in the "Development" section of the menu on
the Struts web site.

This is an ASF-wide thing, and not just a Struts thing. It's also why the
web site was restructured, not so long ago, to separate out the development
pages from the rest of the site.

--
Martin Cooper


Paul
>
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>