[OT] Layout tool for making XML template for FOP processing?

[Paul Furbacher <pn...@home.com>]

Sorry if this is off-topic for a developer's list, but I could
find no other venue.  

XML -> PDF via FOP looks intriguing, but the first step
seems to be missing.  Ordinary humans can't just sit
down and write an XML representation of a document 
which ordinarily they would prototype in a tool like MS Word.
(For instance, our current reporting engine relies on a person
skilled in Word to layout a template, replete with formatting,
and fields where dynamic insertions are to occur.  VBA
does the field and data parsing/matching/insertion, and 
then prints the report to PDF.  The programmers handle the
VBA, of course.)

For XML->FOP technology to be useful, a visual tool for creating
full-formatted templates is needed.  The layout artist/
publicist (whatever the title) shouldn't have to be an 
XML/XSL:FO propeller-head.  Yet from what I can gather, 
only propeller-heads need apply here.

Does such a visual tool exist?   (It has to be something more
than an XML editor like XMLSpy, or whatever.)  Is someone 
working on this?

Thanks for any pointers or references.  And again, my 
apologies for asking a "user's" question on a developer's
list.  (I'll probably be back to ask developer questions if
FOP fits into our plans.)


Paul Furbacher
http://www.teamb.com


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Re: [OT] Layout tool for making XML template for FOP processing?

[Ar...@chebucto.ns.ca]

Hi, Paul

Sure, you're absolutely correct. I personally think it'll be a real hindrance 
to the widespread adoption of XSL-FO if the layout/pagesetting/typography 
experts have to learn how to program XSLT with FO. I don't even think they 
should be required to be XML DTD/schema experts. Preferably they'd never see 
XML at all.

The original idea may have been that XSLT and FO, and all that, would be simple 
enough for this to happen. Certainly a barrier to the adoption of SGML and 
DSSSL was this difficulty and complexity. XSL (XSLT and XSL-FO) is already well 
past the point where it is simple enough for most target users.

So the solution is precisely what you suggest - visual front-ends driven by 
DTDs or schemas, that allow a designer to graphically set up page-masters, 
specify pagination rules and content flows, etc etc, map styles to logical 
document elements within specific contexts, and so forth. At the end of which 
an XSL stylesheet (XSLT + FO) exists for that class of documents, and for that 
particular situation.

You're right - it can't be an XML Spy. I remain unconvinced of the merits of 
tools like that, myself.

I specifically believe that this kind of issue (question, concern) is _not_ out 
of place on a developers' list, since the real focus of implementations must be 
on being a complete useable _system_, or in acting as a well-defined part of a 
complete useable system. In this case FOP, as an example, must be part of a 
complete system that the target community will use in real-life. As it stands, 
if there is no front end, the entry level is unacceptably high, and FOP in 
isolation won't get used (much).

I don't think that construction of such a tool need be an overwhelming task, 
actually. If a small team (3-5 people) were to start today, I'd guess that they 
could have a decent first release within 6 months. I'd apply myself to that 
project if I had the time. :-)

I think you will inevitably see such tools. The need for them is too obvious.

Regards,
Arved Sandstrom

Quoting Paul Furbacher <pn...@home.com>:

> Sorry if this is off-topic for a developer's list, but I could
> find no other venue.  
> 
> XML -> PDF via FOP looks intriguing, but the first step
> seems to be missing.  Ordinary humans can't just sit
> down and write an XML representation of a document 
> which ordinarily they would prototype in a tool like MS Word.
> (For instance, our current reporting engine relies on a person
> skilled in Word to layout a template, replete with formatting,
> and fields where dynamic insertions are to occur.  VBA
> does the field and data parsing/matching/insertion, and 
> then prints the report to PDF.  The programmers handle the
> VBA, of course.)
> 
> For XML->FOP technology to be useful, a visual tool for creating
> full-formatted templates is needed.  The layout artist/
> publicist (whatever the title) shouldn't have to be an 
> XML/XSL:FO propeller-head.  Yet from what I can gather, 
> only propeller-heads need apply here.
> 
> Does such a visual tool exist?   (It has to be something more
> than an XML editor like XMLSpy, or whatever.)  Is someone 
> working on this?
> 
> Thanks for any pointers or references.  And again, my 
> apologies for asking a "user's" question on a developer's
> list.  (I'll probably be back to ask developer questions if
> FOP fits into our plans.)
> 
> 
> Paul Furbacher
> http://www.teamb.com
> 
> 
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: fop-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, email: fop-dev-help@xml.apache.org
> 


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