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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> on 2006/08/07 18:19:01 UTC
Jini?
So whatever happened to the Jini proposal?? I just remembered that there
was a lot of discussion but don't recall the conclusion.
Sanjiva.
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Mon, 2006-08-07 at 10:55 -0700, Leo Simons wrote:
> FWIW your private discussion (where Geir and me where CCed) was not a "crime"
> (yes I saw the smiley!). The ASF understands how hard it can sometimes be to
> "interface" open source projects to the corporate world.
Absolutely +1.
> Yet it would also be entirely appropriate and quite conductive (others might
> learn, for example :) ) to have it on this mailing list, and it *is* what we
> expect of our communities. Posting a summary of the private discussion(s) for
> example might help as well.
In this case actually I'd say that public discourse would've been very
good (despite the bazillion informed and uninformed opinions you
would've gotten!), as problems like copyright assignment are a common
issue for the incubator. We probably eventually need to get something
into the incubator docs.
Sanjiva.
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 06:46:58PM +0200, Mark Brouwer wrote:
> We had some discussions 'in private' how to deal with this [1] and
> concluded last Friday to proceed this in general@incubator. I expect Jim
> Hurley to follow up soon as he represents the owner of the trademark.
>
> [1] which by now we understand is the biggest crime one can commit here
> ;-), we just didn't understand that it was policy to have these type of
> discussion in public. It was not because we didn't want others to become
> involved.
FWIW your private discussion (where Geir and me where CCed) was not a "crime"
(yes I saw the smiley!). The ASF understands how hard it can sometimes be to
"interface" open source projects to the corporate world.
Yet it would also be entirely appropriate and quite conductive (others might
learn, for example :) ) to have it on this mailing list, and it *is* what we
expect of our communities. Posting a summary of the private discussion(s) for
example might help as well.
LSD
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Mark Brouwer <ma...@cheiron.org>.
Matthias Wessendorf wrote:
> I think they ended up at java.net (see [1]). Last week or so I saw
> that and was wondering myself, b/c of the proposal here.
Hi,
The current distribution of the JTSK (the Jini Starter Kit) has shown up
at java.net but that had to do with the old jini.org website closing
down and the requirement to make the distribution available ASAP. This
has nothing to do with a change of objectives from our side.
The Sun people have been discussing with their trademark people how to
deal with the Jini trademark (as many of us feel that it would be
the proper name to maintain) and that has slowed down things
considerable. We also found out we had another trademarked name
(ServiceUI) as part of the proposal.
We had some discussions 'in private' how to deal with this [1] and
concluded last Friday to proceed this in general@incubator. I expect Jim
Hurley to follow up soon as he represents the owner of the trademark.
[1] which by now we understand is the biggest crime one can commit here
;-), we just didn't understand that it was policy to have these type of
discussion in public. It was not because we didn't want others to become
involved.
--
Mark
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Jim Hurley <Ji...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Matthias-
Just to clarify the Jini area on Java.net (jini.dev.java.net)...
the projects there are shared and/or collaborative works that
primarily build on the core infrastructure (that would be in the
Apache Jini project). Those projects include: tools, containers,
abstraction frameworks, integrations with other technologies, etc.
For the most part they are led and developed by individuals or
companies looking to share and leverage work within the Jini Community.
Most of these projects were on our CollabNet -based Jini.org
site prior to it being decommissioned on June 30, 2006.
An overview of the overall Jini direction was outlined in a mail
to the Community in April. See the note and full thread at:
http://archives.java.sun.com/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0604&L=jini-users#2
thanks -Jim
On Aug 7, 2006, at 12:22 PM, Matthias Wessendorf wrote:
> I think they ended up at java.net (see [1]). Last week or so I saw
> that and was wondering myself, b/c of the proposal here.
>
> -Matthias
>
> [1] https://jini.dev.java.net/
> On 8/7/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
>> So whatever happened to the Jini proposal?? I just remembered that
>> there
>> was a lot of discussion but don't recall the conclusion.
>>
>> Sanjiva.
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Matthias Wessendorf <ma...@apache.org>.
I think they ended up at java.net (see [1]). Last week or so I saw
that and was wondering myself, b/c of the proposal here.
-Matthias
[1] https://jini.dev.java.net/
On 8/7/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> So whatever happened to the Jini proposal?? I just remembered that there
> was a lot of discussion but don't recall the conclusion.
>
> Sanjiva.
>
>
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>
>
--
Matthias Wessendorf
further stuff:
blog: http://jroller.com/page/mwessendorf
mail: mwessendorf-at-gmail-dot-com
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Mike Kienenberger <mk...@gmail.com>.
On 8/7/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> So we no longer do names like "Apache SOAP" because they give the
> impression that there can be just one and only on implementation of the
> technology in Apache.
>
> I know changing the name is a *really* tough thing for Jini. However, is
> Jini a *technology* or an *implementation*? If its the prior I'm afraid
> our current guidelines are not to do technology names.
Does that include the current OpenEJB and OpenJPA projects?
I've only been watching the incubator lists for a few months, but I
haven't seen anything mentioned about these names up to this point.
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Bob,
On Aug 10, 2006, at 11:04 AM, Bob Scheifler wrote:
> Jim Hurley wrote:
>> Besides the 'name question' -- are there any other questions or
>> issues
>> associated with the JiniProposal that we could be discussing?
>
> Since resolution on the name question (so far) seems clear as mud :(
> let's try a related question of Java package names. The existing
> codebase (proposed as starting point for the project) uses these
> package namespaces:
> net.jini
> com.sun.jini
> com.artima.lookup
> Can an ASF-approved project continue to use these?
>
> The net.jini namespace is used for public APIs that are defined
> by specifications that are currently Jini Community Standards.
> These specifications are likely to come under the control of
> the ASF project, rather than being governed by an outside body.
> Lots of existing application code in the world makes calls on
> these APIs, so having to change this namespace would be a
> monumental upheaval, in my opinion.
If you're going to continue the jini project in Apache, then it makes
sense to me to use the jini.net package names for the specification
artifacts.
>
> The com.sun.jini and com.artima.lookup namespaces are mostly used
> for implementations, although there are various APIs in the
> com.sun.jini namespace that are used directly by applications.
This is now implementation and I'd think you would want to replace
com.sun.jini. with org.apache.somethingelseentirely.
> Changing these namespaces would have less of an impact on
> other Java source code out there, but the reality is that
> lots of configuration files and startup scripts in the world
> make reference to things in the com.sun.jini namespace, so
> the impact would be felt there.
If you're objective is an open API that anyone can build
implementations for, then inventing a code name for the
implementation might be a good idea. In fact, it might be an idea to
split the current jini project into two (the api and compatibility
test suite combined into the Jini project, with the implementation
broken out into its own Somethingelseentirely project).
On the other hand, if the Apache project is really "The One True Jini
Implementation", then calling it org.apache.jini would make sense.
Just thinking out loud...
Craig
>
> - Bob
>
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Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Jini?
Posted by Bob Scheifler <Bo...@Sun.COM>.
Jim Hurley wrote:
> Besides the 'name question' -- are there any other questions or issues
> associated with the JiniProposal that we could be discussing?
Since resolution on the name question (so far) seems clear as mud :(
let's try a related question of Java package names. The existing
codebase (proposed as starting point for the project) uses these
package namespaces:
net.jini
com.sun.jini
com.artima.lookup
Can an ASF-approved project continue to use these?
The net.jini namespace is used for public APIs that are defined
by specifications that are currently Jini Community Standards.
These specifications are likely to come under the control of
the ASF project, rather than being governed by an outside body.
Lots of existing application code in the world makes calls on
these APIs, so having to change this namespace would be a
monumental upheaval, in my opinion.
The com.sun.jini and com.artima.lookup namespaces are mostly used
for implementations, although there are various APIs in the
com.sun.jini namespace that are used directly by applications.
Changing these namespaces would have less of an impact on
other Java source code out there, but the reality is that
lots of configuration files and startup scripts in the world
make reference to things in the com.sun.jini namespace, so
the impact would be felt there.
- Bob
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Jim Hurley <Ji...@Sun.COM>.
Besides the 'name question' -- are there any other questions or issues
associated with the JiniProposal that we could be discussing? For
reference,
the submission from the incubator archives is at:
<http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/
200606.mbox/%3cB64AC2F6-3384-43BD-A8AF-9EA5D6D85840@sun.com%3e>
I've also placed it in the wiki at:
<http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/JiniProposal>
which I'll update as we go along.
thanks -jim
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Wed, 2006-08-09 at 13:51 -0400, Jim Hurley wrote:
> Thanks, Mark, for following up with some of the thinking.
+1.
> I am unclear on what the process is... can someone shed some
> light? As far as the naming goes:
> - how can we determine if the "Jini" name is acceptable to Apache?
With Mark's long explanation of the bazillion things called "Jini", I'd
say that its unlikely to be acceptable. But then ... we're a weird bunch
and YMMV. (And I'm *really* sorry for that but that's the way we work
yet :(.)
> - whether contributing the TM would be welcomed?
My personal opinion: probably not needed.
> - whether use of "Jini" by other community sites, etc would be
> acceptable?
If the name's changed here of course. If not hmm probably not; we're
currently in the habit of giving grief of that nature to Geronimo stuff.
> We're anxious to get going, but the path we must take is unclear
> to us.
I think there was generally enthusiastic interest in Jini (from me too
personally) here, so other than for sorting out the legal issues we
should be ok. But then I'm one of many with an opinion and one of (a
smaller) many with a vote.
Best path is be patient, keep pushing (gently), try to make adjustments
as consensus is apparently falling into place, and finally when you feel
the need to pull your hair out, pull only one each time .. that way you
won't look like me by the time this proposal gets accepted. ;-).
Sanjiva.
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Jim Hurley <Ji...@Sun.COM>.
Thanks, Mark, for following up with some of the thinking.
I am unclear on what the process is... can someone shed some
light? As far as the naming goes:
- how can we determine if the "Jini" name is acceptable to Apache?
- whether contributing the TM would be welcomed?
- whether use of "Jini" by other community sites, etc would be
acceptable?
We're anxious to get going, but the path we must take is unclear
to us.
Thanks for any help.
-Jim
On Aug 8, 2006, at 6:29 AM, Mark Brouwer wrote:
> Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
>
>> I know changing the name is a *really* tough thing for Jini.
>> However, is
>> Jini a *technology* or an *implementation*? If its the prior I'm
>> afraid
>> our current guidelines are not to do technology names.
>
> I understand for those not very involved with the Jini Technology
> it is
> hard to pinpoint what Jini exactly is and why some of us are
> willing to
> go through great lengths to take this name with us, so let me try.
>
> First Jini is a Technology, but with an extra handicap as the borders
> where Jini begins and ends are not very well defined, even while in
> 1999/2000 there was already a document that described the Jini
> Architecture and the Jini Technology Core Platform. It just lacks a
> clear definition, when you ask 10 people to describe Jini chances are
> high that you will get 10 different answers; some that will make you
> happy or smile, and some that make you foam with rage ...
>
> Many consider the implementation of Sun JTSK (Jini Technology Starter
> Kit) as being 'Jini' but this is not correct (if you would ask me) and
> while the proposal mainly centers around their code the proposal also
> includes another Jini Community Approved Standard, namely ServiceUI
> (the
> other trademark involved).
>
> What is part of this proposal are most of the Jini Community Approved
> Standards and the IMHO 'sad' thing is that the Jini Decision Process
> that ratified these specifications as community approved standards
> ceased to exist. Sun is no longer willing to provide the Executive to
> run the process and there are not enough people in the community that
> want to take it over (read don't want to spend time on it). The
> current
> owner of the Standards also doesn't believe they can get accepted
> as JSR
> in the JCP based on experience with some of the specifications that
> ended up as Jini Standard while they should have become J2SE
> specifications in the first place. The net result is that some really
> important Jini Community aspects [1] (the Standards) we all circle
> around are part of this proposal, and if we can stay clear of forks it
> should be seen as the foundation on top of which the rest of the Jini
> community will build their own stuff.
>
> [1] as Jim mentioned the new http://jini.org/ is another aspect of the
> community and is there for everything one could see as Jini related
> (really open ended), http://jini.dev.java.net/ should be seen as the
> yellow pages with regard to Jini related development projects and news
> around that.
>
> Renaming the Technology itself would be suicidal in my opinion as
> there
> are dozens of people/companies that develop products/specifications on
> top of 'Jini' so it would be harming them too. Of course it would be
> possible to give the TLP a different name, but then again almost every
> sentence would have a reference to the Jini Technology for which I
> guess
> nobody could say where the 'Jini Technology' itself lives. Given the
> fact the ASF project would be closest to defining the 'Jini
> Technology'
> I think it is good to emphasize this by the name of the TLP.
>
> IANAL and have no idea what the impact would be of handing over the
> Jini
> trademark to the ASF, how the ASF will deal with other communities
> that
> have Jini in their name, or other specifications that have Jini in
> their
> name. I'm reluctant to say this given the fact that Sun has to protect
> its trademarks, but I have the feeling that Jini has become rather
> generic in the past years. People say I wrote a Jini service, I
> developed a Jini Service Container, I do Jini, it is the Jini way,
> etc.
> I also don't understand the implications of abandoning the trademark
> itself, but I would like to see that Jini can be used in the future as
> it is today, even when it makes your mouth foam.
>
> To summarize as *I* see it at this very moment:
>
> - Jini is not a product.
> - Jini can't be used as a noun.
> - Jini in combination with another noun could serve as a
> specification
> name for which one can have multiple implementations, such as
> 'Jini Helper and Utility Classes', 'Jini Platform',
> 'Jini Service Container', etc.
> - the deliverables of an Apache Jini TLP should get their own
> distinct
> name without Jini in it, except when it represent a 'Jini ...
> Specification'.
> - Jini itself only represents the magic of doing distributed
> computing
> in a proper way and comes in a lamp, these are already hard to
> find
> these days so please don't make it even harder :-)
>
> I would like to know whether people object against using Jini as name
> for a TLP based on the above reasoning. I think for the discussion it
> would be handy to tackle the appropriateness of the name first
> before we
> deal with legal issues, as I guess that most people here have the
> IANAL
> prefix, just like me.
> --
> Mark
>
>
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Mark Brouwer <ma...@cheiron.org>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> I know changing the name is a *really* tough thing for Jini. However, is
> Jini a *technology* or an *implementation*? If its the prior I'm afraid
> our current guidelines are not to do technology names.
I understand for those not very involved with the Jini Technology it is
hard to pinpoint what Jini exactly is and why some of us are willing to
go through great lengths to take this name with us, so let me try.
First Jini is a Technology, but with an extra handicap as the borders
where Jini begins and ends are not very well defined, even while in
1999/2000 there was already a document that described the Jini
Architecture and the Jini Technology Core Platform. It just lacks a
clear definition, when you ask 10 people to describe Jini chances are
high that you will get 10 different answers; some that will make you
happy or smile, and some that make you foam with rage ...
Many consider the implementation of Sun JTSK (Jini Technology Starter
Kit) as being 'Jini' but this is not correct (if you would ask me) and
while the proposal mainly centers around their code the proposal also
includes another Jini Community Approved Standard, namely ServiceUI (the
other trademark involved).
What is part of this proposal are most of the Jini Community Approved
Standards and the IMHO 'sad' thing is that the Jini Decision Process
that ratified these specifications as community approved standards
ceased to exist. Sun is no longer willing to provide the Executive to
run the process and there are not enough people in the community that
want to take it over (read don't want to spend time on it). The current
owner of the Standards also doesn't believe they can get accepted as JSR
in the JCP based on experience with some of the specifications that
ended up as Jini Standard while they should have become J2SE
specifications in the first place. The net result is that some really
important Jini Community aspects [1] (the Standards) we all circle
around are part of this proposal, and if we can stay clear of forks it
should be seen as the foundation on top of which the rest of the Jini
community will build their own stuff.
[1] as Jim mentioned the new http://jini.org/ is another aspect of the
community and is there for everything one could see as Jini related
(really open ended), http://jini.dev.java.net/ should be seen as the
yellow pages with regard to Jini related development projects and news
around that.
Renaming the Technology itself would be suicidal in my opinion as there
are dozens of people/companies that develop products/specifications on
top of 'Jini' so it would be harming them too. Of course it would be
possible to give the TLP a different name, but then again almost every
sentence would have a reference to the Jini Technology for which I guess
nobody could say where the 'Jini Technology' itself lives. Given the
fact the ASF project would be closest to defining the 'Jini Technology'
I think it is good to emphasize this by the name of the TLP.
IANAL and have no idea what the impact would be of handing over the Jini
trademark to the ASF, how the ASF will deal with other communities that
have Jini in their name, or other specifications that have Jini in their
name. I'm reluctant to say this given the fact that Sun has to protect
its trademarks, but I have the feeling that Jini has become rather
generic in the past years. People say I wrote a Jini service, I
developed a Jini Service Container, I do Jini, it is the Jini way, etc.
I also don't understand the implications of abandoning the trademark
itself, but I would like to see that Jini can be used in the future as
it is today, even when it makes your mouth foam.
To summarize as *I* see it at this very moment:
- Jini is not a product.
- Jini can't be used as a noun.
- Jini in combination with another noun could serve as a specification
name for which one can have multiple implementations, such as
'Jini Helper and Utility Classes', 'Jini Platform',
'Jini Service Container', etc.
- the deliverables of an Apache Jini TLP should get their own distinct
name without Jini in it, except when it represent a 'Jini ...
Specification'.
- Jini itself only represents the magic of doing distributed computing
in a proper way and comes in a lamp, these are already hard to find
these days so please don't make it even harder :-)
I would like to know whether people object against using Jini as name
for a TLP based on the above reasoning. I think for the discussion it
would be handy to tackle the appropriateness of the name first before we
deal with legal issues, as I guess that most people here have the IANAL
prefix, just like me.
--
Mark
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Mon, 2006-08-07 at 14:13 -0400, Jim Hurley wrote:
>
> We did start considering alternative names, but there's a strong
> reluctance to changing names. That's primarily because of the name
> recognition we've built up around the technology and Community
> during the past number of years, as well as the difficulty (ref
> the many posts on this list in the last month on choosing names)
> with picking a new name.
>
> Assuming this reasoning makes sense... we'd like to proceed with
> "Jini" as the name of the Proposal and get some discussion going
> to better understand if we can contribute the TM and if it would
> be okay for those other Jini -related site (Jini.org, jini.dev.java.net)
> to continue to use the Jini name.
So we no longer do names like "Apache SOAP" because they give the
impression that there can be just one and only on implementation of the
technology in Apache.
I know changing the name is a *really* tough thing for Jini. However, is
Jini a *technology* or an *implementation*? If its the prior I'm afraid
our current guidelines are not to do technology names.
Do we do exceptions? Nothing is impossible in ASF land but its something
we need to discuss (yes in public).
Sanjiva.
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
I'd like to point out that Apache does have tolerance for "brand
names" coming in from the outside, in particular "J-word projects"
from Sun.
Java(TM) Data Objects a.k.a. JDO is an official Apache project [1].
JDO is not trademarked but the name is well-known in its space. The
Apache JDO project includes the official API for both JSR-12 and
JSR-243; and the official TCK for both JSRs.
Sun donated JDO to Apache for continued development, and Apache JDO
released the API and TCK according to the official JCP rules, under
the Apache license.
There is room for development of a JDO implementation as an Apache
project, but it seems more likely that other Apache projects will
provide a JDO implementation outside of the Apache JDO project. (e.g.
OpenJPA or Cayenne might well provide a JDO-compliant interface, just
as they might offer a JPA-compliant interface).
There is precedent for Apache adopting Jini as a project, regardless
of whether you are talking about "just an implementation" or "the
official Jini".
Craig
[1] http://db.apache.org/jdo
On Aug 7, 2006, at 11:13 AM, Jim Hurley wrote:
> On Aug 7, 2006, at 12:19 PM, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
>> So whatever happened to the Jini proposal?? I just remembered that
>> there
>> was a lot of discussion but don't recall the conclusion.
>
> Sorry - we hit a snag around the name, and have been working to
> try and get untangled.
>
> There seemed to be two discussion points around the "Jini" name on
> our Proposal: 1) trademark concerns, 2) potential confusion on
> the Jini project at Apache and other Jini Community related web
> places (Jini.org, jini.dev.java.net).
>
> Part of our delay in re-engaging on this list was to get a better
> understanding of the options around the Jini trademark (that Sun
> currently owns). It seems there are two viable choices: contribute
> the trademark to Apache (along with the code), or 'abandon' the
> trademark registration. We would prefer to contribute it, but I'd
> like some discussion on this list on whether that's a viable
> option.
>
> As for potential confusion with other "Jini areas" (Jini.org,
> jini.dev.java.net) -- that's a reasonable point, but we believe
> we can put context on those other sites so it's clear how they
> fit into the overall Jini Community picture and core infrastructure
> being built in the Apache Jini project.
>
> We did start considering alternative names, but there's a strong
> reluctance to changing names. That's primarily because of the name
> recognition we've built up around the technology and Community
> during the past number of years, as well as the difficulty (ref
> the many posts on this list in the last month on choosing names)
> with picking a new name.
>
> Assuming this reasoning makes sense... we'd like to proceed with
> "Jini" as the name of the Proposal and get some discussion going
> to better understand if we can contribute the TM and if it would
> be okay for those other Jini -related site (Jini.org,
> jini.dev.java.net)
> to continue to use the Jini name.
>
> thanks -Jim
>
>
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>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Jini?
Posted by Jim Hurley <Ji...@Sun.COM>.
On Aug 7, 2006, at 12:19 PM, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> So whatever happened to the Jini proposal?? I just remembered that
> there
> was a lot of discussion but don't recall the conclusion.
Sorry - we hit a snag around the name, and have been working to
try and get untangled.
There seemed to be two discussion points around the "Jini" name on
our Proposal: 1) trademark concerns, 2) potential confusion on
the Jini project at Apache and other Jini Community related web
places (Jini.org, jini.dev.java.net).
Part of our delay in re-engaging on this list was to get a better
understanding of the options around the Jini trademark (that Sun
currently owns). It seems there are two viable choices: contribute
the trademark to Apache (along with the code), or 'abandon' the
trademark registration. We would prefer to contribute it, but I'd
like some discussion on this list on whether that's a viable
option.
As for potential confusion with other "Jini areas" (Jini.org,
jini.dev.java.net) -- that's a reasonable point, but we believe
we can put context on those other sites so it's clear how they
fit into the overall Jini Community picture and core infrastructure
being built in the Apache Jini project.
We did start considering alternative names, but there's a strong
reluctance to changing names. That's primarily because of the name
recognition we've built up around the technology and Community
during the past number of years, as well as the difficulty (ref
the many posts on this list in the last month on choosing names)
with picking a new name.
Assuming this reasoning makes sense... we'd like to proceed with
"Jini" as the name of the Proposal and get some discussion going
to better understand if we can contribute the TM and if it would
be okay for those other Jini -related site (Jini.org, jini.dev.java.net)
to continue to use the Jini name.
thanks -Jim
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
> It's an implementation of a spec. A single spec that is part of an
> external spec-governing ecosystem, the JCP. "Jini" isn't a spec, it's
> it's own spec ecosystem. It's not part of the JCP, for example.
>
> So Apache Jini is like saying Apache JCP (I'm stretching to make a
> point...).
>
That said, I'd be all for Apache JINI as an experiment to do a spec
governance project for JINI, and Apache $FOO as the thing that takes the
code being suggested in the proposal.
I just wouldn't "cross the beams" at this point.
geir
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RE: Jini?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Geir,
>> If Sun is going to do the trademark assignment, there is no difference.
>> We would have the trademark for the technology domain. And if you take
>> into consideration the concurrent talk about specifications coming under
>> ASF practices, that would dovetail nicely.
> Sorry, I think it's a big difference.
No need to be sorry. You're as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
And since you have posted, separately, your new proposal, I will join in
there. The major difference here seems to be that you view Apache JINI as
analogous Apache JCP, Apache W3C, etc., whereas I see it as akin to Apache
JDO and Apache STDCXX.
--- Noel
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>> I don't know that the name is an issue at all, if Sun is willing to
> transfer
>>> the trademark to the ASF, as was done with SpamAssassin. The impression
>>> that I have from Craig and others is that this is do-able. According to
>>> Simon, this is something that a Sun contact can work on, and according
> to
>>> Jim Hurley, "We would prefer to contribute it, but I'd like some
> discussion
>>> on this list on whether that's a viable option." The answer, Jim, is
> yes.
>>> We did the same with the SpamAssassin trademark.
>
>> Because there is a difference. JINI is a "technology domain".
>> SpamAssassin is a project.
>
> If Sun is going to do the trademark assignment, there is no difference. We
> would have the trademark for the technology domain. And if you take into
> consideration the concurrent talk about specifications coming under ASF
> practices, that would dovetail nicely.
Sorry, I think it's a big difference. We aren't ready to handle either
yet, so I think that the proposed Jini project would be subject to lots
of uncertainty, which isn't fair (been there, done that...)
I guess we could call the project "Apache Jini", but that sounds like an
umbrella in the making, and I don't think we'd allow a Apache AJAX,
Apcahe Web2.0, Apache Java, Apache SQL, Apache Blog, Apache OS, etc
project...
>
>>> Between that and Craig's observations regarding the JDO precedent, it
> begs
>>> the question of why we should not go forward with the JINI name, which
> is
>>> what Sun, itself, is offering, and which is the name with which people
>>> associate. If we eventually find that we must change the name, which it
>>> seems we would all like to avoid, we can do so later.
>
>> I'd rather go forward with a neutral project name, and then work out the
>> implications of managing a trademark that we'd have to allow others to
> use.
>
> Given Apache JDO, which is also a technology domain, how do you justify that
> view? Please note: asking for justification is a debating question, not an
> attack. :-)
You have to work far harder than that to attack me :)
It's an implementation of a spec. A single spec that is part of an
external spec-governing ecosystem, the JCP. "Jini" isn't a spec, it's
it's own spec ecosystem. It's not part of the JCP, for example.
So Apache Jini is like saying Apache JCP (I'm stretching to make a
point...).
geir
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RE: Jini?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > I don't know that the name is an issue at all, if Sun is willing to
transfer
> > the trademark to the ASF, as was done with SpamAssassin. The impression
> > that I have from Craig and others is that this is do-able. According to
> > Simon, this is something that a Sun contact can work on, and according
to
> > Jim Hurley, "We would prefer to contribute it, but I'd like some
discussion
> > on this list on whether that's a viable option." The answer, Jim, is
yes.
> > We did the same with the SpamAssassin trademark.
> Because there is a difference. JINI is a "technology domain".
> SpamAssassin is a project.
If Sun is going to do the trademark assignment, there is no difference. We
would have the trademark for the technology domain. And if you take into
consideration the concurrent talk about specifications coming under ASF
practices, that would dovetail nicely.
> > Between that and Craig's observations regarding the JDO precedent, it
begs
> > the question of why we should not go forward with the JINI name, which
is
> > what Sun, itself, is offering, and which is the name with which people
> > associate. If we eventually find that we must change the name, which it
> > seems we would all like to avoid, we can do so later.
> I'd rather go forward with a neutral project name, and then work out the
> implications of managing a trademark that we'd have to allow others to
use.
Given Apache JDO, which is also a technology domain, how do you justify that
view? Please note: asking for justification is a debating question, not an
attack. :-)
--- Noel
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
>> I think that instead of spinning on this lock, we should move forward
>> with some other name to get things booted, and then resolve the Jini
>> name issue in parallel.
>
> I don't know that the name is an issue at all, if Sun is willing to transfer
> the trademark to the ASF, as was done with SpamAssassin. The impression
> that I have from Craig and others is that this is do-able. According to
> Simon, this is something that a Sun contact can work on, and according to
> Jim Hurley, "We would prefer to contribute it, but I'd like some discussion
> on this list on whether that's a viable option." The answer, Jim, is yes.
> We did the same with the SpamAssassin trademark.
Because there is a difference. JINI is a "technology domain".
SpamAssassin is a project.
>
> Between that and Craig's observations regarding the JDO precedent, it begs
> the question of why we should not go forward with the JINI name, which is
> what Sun, itself, is offering, and which is the name with which people
> associate. If we eventually find that we must change the name, which it
> seems we would all like to avoid, we can do so later.
I'd rather go forward with a neutral project name, and then work out the
implications of managing a trademark that we'd have to allow others to use.
geir
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RE: Jini?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> I think that instead of spinning on this lock, we should move forward
> with some other name to get things booted, and then resolve the Jini
> name issue in parallel.
I don't know that the name is an issue at all, if Sun is willing to transfer
the trademark to the ASF, as was done with SpamAssassin. The impression
that I have from Craig and others is that this is do-able. According to
Simon, this is something that a Sun contact can work on, and according to
Jim Hurley, "We would prefer to contribute it, but I'd like some discussion
on this list on whether that's a viable option." The answer, Jim, is yes.
We did the same with the SpamAssassin trademark.
Between that and Craig's observations regarding the JDO precedent, it begs
the question of why we should not go forward with the JINI name, which is
what Sun, itself, is offering, and which is the name with which people
associate. If we eventually find that we must change the name, which it
seems we would all like to avoid, we can do so later.
Either way, I agree that there is great mutual interest in moving the
community and code base into the ASF. And due to the decommissioning of
jini.org, there is probably some sense of urgency to give the community a
new permanent home. This proposal as stalled since June, and we ought to be
able to move it forward.
--- Noel
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Re: Jini?
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
I'm going to reply to this as I found no good point in the thread.
I think that instead of spinning on this lock, we should move forward
with some other name to get things booted, and then resolve the Jini
name issue in parallel.
Clearly there's sufficient interest to see this become an Apache
community - I don't think that having a "working name" will be a big
problem as the Jini community will be fully aware of the project and
it's goals.
So Jim et al, if you like this, propose a working name, and lets get
going...
geir
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> So whatever happened to the Jini proposal?? I just remembered that there
> was a lot of discussion but don't recall the conclusion.
>
> Sanjiva.
>
>
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>
>
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