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Posted to dev@httpd.apache.org by Paul Querna <ch...@force-elite.com> on 2008/04/12 19:10:01 UTC
Apache 3.0
For those who were not there, slides from Roy's keynote at ApacheCon EU:
<http://roy.gbiv.com/talks/200804_Apache3_ApacheCon.pdf>
The only reply I can really come up with is:
Patches Welcome.
I don't agree with, or disagree with all of the topics Roy discusses,
and I do think we should focus more on 'fun' things, but I'm not sure we
have an active enough community to really toss everything out, and
plunge head first into a 3.0 development sprint.
-Paul
Re: Apache 3.0
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Apr 15, 2008, at 6:53 AM, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>> Paul Querna wrote:
>>> For those who were not there, slides from Roy's keynote at
>>> ApacheCon EU:
>>> <http://roy.gbiv.com/talks/200804_Apache3_ApacheCon.pdf>
>> I came away with one question...
>> if you read the slides you should understand Roy as pointing out the
>> relative peaks and valleys in traffic, corresponding to regular v.s.
>> drawn out release cycles, and general "energy level".
>> But measuring the list as "energy" - Roy did you factor in the
>> various
>> bugs@httpd traffic (and earlier generations?)
No, mostly because I didn't have time.
My experience is that the numbers on those lists are dominated by
repetition rather than actual communication. Things like people closing
out old bugs, spammers, the 500th duplicate of some bug that hasn't been
fixed in five years, etc. The stuff that actually applies to the server
tends to make its way onto the dev list traffic (several times, sadly).
I wanted to emphasize more the amount that we try to communicate with
each other in collaboration, rather than the amount of individual
additions to the code/docs.
> In doing so, here's the net effect if we look at dev, bugs, cvs and
> docs
> where the actual "work gets done" so to speak.
>
> http://httpd.markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.httpd.dev+list
> %3Aorg.apache.httpd.bugs+list%3Aorg.apache.httpd.cvs+list%
> 3Aorg.apache.httpd.docs
>
> [this ignores any possible resolutions which are created in the
> spheres
> of users@, testers@ and so forth, but those lists existed pretty much
> throughout the history of the project].
It also overemphasizes the mass-generated commits, particularly in docs,
but it is nice to see anyway.
....Roy
Re: Apache 3.0
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Paul Querna wrote:
>> For those who were not there, slides from Roy's keynote at ApacheCon EU:
>> <http://roy.gbiv.com/talks/200804_Apache3_ApacheCon.pdf>
>
> I came away with one question...
>
> if you read the slides you should understand Roy as pointing out the
> relative peaks and valleys in traffic, corresponding to regular v.s.
> drawn out release cycles, and general "energy level".
>
> But measuring the list as "energy" - Roy did you factor in the various
> bugs@httpd traffic (and earlier generations?)
In doing so, here's the net effect if we look at dev, bugs, cvs and docs
where the actual "work gets done" so to speak.
http://httpd.markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.httpd.dev+list%3Aorg.apache.httpd.bugs+list%3Aorg.apache.httpd.cvs+list%3Aorg.apache.httpd.docs
[this ignores any possible resolutions which are created in the spheres
of users@, testers@ and so forth, but those lists existed pretty much
throughout the history of the project].
I agree with Roy that what is missing is innovation, and that we no longer
release early or often enough. But I wouldn't go as far as calling this
project lethargic ;-)
Re: Apache 3.0
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Paul Querna wrote:
> For those who were not there, slides from Roy's keynote at ApacheCon EU:
> <http://roy.gbiv.com/talks/200804_Apache3_ApacheCon.pdf>
I came away with one question...
if you read the slides you should understand Roy as pointing out the
relative peaks and valleys in traffic, corresponding to regular v.s.
drawn out release cycles, and general "energy level".
But measuring the list as "energy" - Roy did you factor in the various
bugs@httpd traffic (and earlier generations?)
There's one fact, bug tracking has significantly changed things. Yes,
we have too many open bugs, but many issues never hit dev@; they are
entirely discussed in the incident and svn history.
So to leave out bugs@ history (perhaps filter out initial postings, but
retain all comment-added messages) is to neglect a major aspect of httpd
ongoing progress and development.
Bill
Re: Apache 3.0
Posted by Paul Querna <ch...@force-elite.com>.
Jorge Schrauwen wrote:
....
> Although dropping back to waka/http is an other options but I think
> some users will be dissapointed.
> Why run 4 different daemons while one will do? (ok I can think of a
> lot of reasons but I can think of some no to do it either.)
Because then you'll be like inetd, and suck at all of them :-)
If the internals only know about 'waka', and we have an waka->http
filter right above the network, it kinda almost makes sense.
It just means waka better not be a sucky protocol....
-Paul
Re: Apache 3.0
Posted by Jorge Schrauwen <jo...@gmail.com>.
The slide showing the protocols httpd supports is kind of dead on.
Personaly I like it that I'm able to serve http, ftp,... with one
server package.
If this is they way to go I think in 3.0 a entire new design would
benifit and remove a lot of workaround in forcing the protocols to
work with the httpd core.
Although then it can no longer be httpd but apached or something in the like.
Although dropping back to waka/http is an other options but I think
some users will be dissapointed.
Why run 4 different daemons while one will do? (ok I can think of a
lot of reasons but I can think of some no to do it either.)
Just my 2 cents
Jorge
On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 7:10 PM, Paul Querna <ch...@force-elite.com> wrote:
> For those who were not there, slides from Roy's keynote at ApacheCon EU:
> <http://roy.gbiv.com/talks/200804_Apache3_ApacheCon.pdf>
>
> The only reply I can really come up with is:
>
> Patches Welcome.
>
> I don't agree with, or disagree with all of the topics Roy discusses, and I
> do think we should focus more on 'fun' things, but I'm not sure we have an
> active enough community to really toss everything out, and plunge head first
> into a 3.0 development sprint.
>
> -Paul
>
>
--
~Jorge
Re: Apache 3.0
Posted by Ian Holsman <li...@holsman.net>.
Paul Querna wrote:
> For those who were not there, slides from Roy's keynote at ApacheCon EU:
> <http://roy.gbiv.com/talks/200804_Apache3_ApacheCon.pdf>
>
>
I've got a couple of naive questions about 3.
My apologies.. but i'm only looking at the slides, not the speech itself.
What will the role of apache 3 be. on slides 10 thru 13 you show the
history and it's uses, I'm just wondering if you have any dreams on how
this will make the internet a better place to be.
Or are you intending 3.0 to be more of a consolidation/simplification of
the codebase to base new ideas on?
you mention 'adult serfs' in the slide, but you don't really go into
it.. how are these going to change my life. (my life being as a
sysadmin/module developer/reverse proxy user)
if v3 will be waka only, what will happen to POP3, FTP and the other
protocol support?
waka .. would i be wrong in saying that waka is a compressed version of
http 1.x ?
what other things does it give me (a application developer or a browser)
that http doesn't give.
Is the main aim to reduce the size of the header, if so what have you
done about cookies/state passing, which take up most of the space on
some domains.
have you got one of the browser groups onboard to write something that
talks "waka"?
is waka stateless?
multi-language support. are you planning on integrating multiple
language support into it from the onset?
It looks like a cool idea, i'm still trying to wrap my head around how I
would use it to make my system design better than what I have today, but
I did the same thing when I first heard about 2.0
regards
Ian
> -Paul
>
>
Re: Apache 3.0
Posted by Sander Temme <sc...@apache.org>.
On Apr 13, 2008, at 8:50 AM, Jorge Schrauwen wrote:
> Just out of curiosity... will 3.0 still be a fresh start or will the
> core of 2.3 be used?
Well, the existing code is a server framework that runs millions of
websites and has received a lot of battle-testing. I don't see us not
taking that along in concept if perhaps not verbatim line-by-line.
S.
--
Sander Temme
sctemme@apache.org
PGP FP: 51B4 8727 466A 0BC3 69F4 B7B8 B2BE BC40 1529 24AF
Re: Apache 3.0
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Apr 13, 2008, at 8:50 AM, Jorge Schrauwen wrote:
> Just out of curiosity... will 3.0 still be a fresh start or will the
> core of 2.3 be used?
My slides are intended to be motivational, not definitional.
The only thing known about 3.0 is that it won't be compatible with 2.x.
Other than that (the meaning of the major version number), it all
depends
on what we end up with. The "d" framework in amsterdam seems to be
based
on 2.3. wakad will be a fresh start. If anyone wants to try their own
variation in another sandbox, let us know. It won't be called 3.0 for
real until the PMC decides to make it so by majority vote, and there's
no point in doing that until we can test a working version(s) and show
that it is soooo much better than 2.x.
....Roy
Re: Apache 3.0
Posted by Jorge Schrauwen <jo...@gmail.com>.
Just out of curiosity... will 3.0 still be a fresh start or will the
core of 2.3 be used?
On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 8:31 AM, Roy T. Fielding <fi...@gbiv.com> wrote:
> On Apr 12, 2008, at 7:10 PM, Paul Querna wrote:
>
> > For those who were not there, slides from Roy's keynote at ApacheCon EU:
> > <http://roy.gbiv.com/talks/200804_Apache3_ApacheCon.pdf>
> >
>
> heh, good thing I managed to get the Internet connection to work long
> enough
> for the upload.
>
>
>
> > The only reply I can really come up with is:
> >
> > Patches Welcome.
> >
>
> Patches? We don't need no stinkin' patches.
>
>
>
> > I don't agree with, or disagree with all of the topics Roy discusses, and
> I do think we should focus more on 'fun' things, but I'm not sure we have an
> active enough community to really toss everything out, and plunge head first
> into a 3.0 development sprint.
> >
>
> We don't have to. The point is that we should stop worrying about what
> we have the time to do and just let whoever does have the time to do,
> just do, in a way that we can make use of it when we do have the time.
> If the result isn't worth adopting, then we don't adopt it as Apache 3.
>
> We can steer the project wherever the majority want to go, but someone
> has to provide the wheels.
>
> ....Roy
>
--
~Jorge
Re: Apache 3.0
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Apr 12, 2008, at 7:10 PM, Paul Querna wrote:
> For those who were not there, slides from Roy's keynote at
> ApacheCon EU:
> <http://roy.gbiv.com/talks/200804_Apache3_ApacheCon.pdf>
heh, good thing I managed to get the Internet connection to work long
enough
for the upload.
> The only reply I can really come up with is:
>
> Patches Welcome.
Patches? We don't need no stinkin' patches.
> I don't agree with, or disagree with all of the topics Roy
> discusses, and I do think we should focus more on 'fun' things, but
> I'm not sure we have an active enough community to really toss
> everything out, and plunge head first into a 3.0 development sprint.
We don't have to. The point is that we should stop worrying about what
we have the time to do and just let whoever does have the time to do,
just do, in a way that we can make use of it when we do have the time.
If the result isn't worth adopting, then we don't adopt it as Apache 3.
We can steer the project wherever the majority want to go, but someone
has to provide the wheels.
....Roy