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Posted to user@velocity.apache.org by Terry Steichen <te...@net-frame.com> on 2001/10/16 05:45:28 UTC
Velocity Market Acceptance
Geir,
Any idea of how broadly Velocity has been accepted to date by the market? Is it yet being used in production systems (and if so, is this through existing frameworks or custom code)? Is it yet being used (or contemplated to be used) in any commercial systems? Is there any commercial documentation yet on VTL (such as books, or in-depth articles) existing or planned?
Regards,
Terry
PS: I'll certainly do my part to see that this happens, but it would help to know the current depth of market penetration.
Re: Velocity Market Acceptance
Posted by Leon Messerschmidt <le...@opticode.co.za>.
Hi Terry,
Can't give too much info ( confidential :-) ), but we're working with a
largish organization (3000 employees) who are considering moving ALL their
server side systems and extranet applications to Java/Velocity.
~ Leon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Steichen" <te...@net-frame.com>
To: <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 5:45 AM
Subject: Velocity Market Acceptance
Geir,
Any idea of how broadly Velocity has been accepted to date by the market?
Is it yet being used in production systems (and if so, is this through
existing frameworks or custom code)? Is it yet being used (or contemplated
to be used) in any commercial systems? Is there any commercial
documentation yet on VTL (such as books, or in-depth articles) existing or
planned?
Regards,
Terry
PS: I'll certainly do my part to see that this happens, but it would help
to know the current depth of market penetration.
Re: Velocity Market Acceptance
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 10/16/01 11:55 PM, "Ewan Makepeace" <ew...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> We have just completed:
>
> http://www.goodwoodinteriors.com
>
> for a client. This site uses Velocity to generate all index and detail pages
> from a database, but the site is served as static pages. If this type of use
> qualifies for an entry in the 'powered by velocity' list, please include.
>
> Thanks,
> Ewan
>
Sure! Why not - Velocity is being used to generate the content. Velocity
is used to generate static content for the Apache, Jakarta, Velocity,
Turbine, ...
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
You're going to end up getting pissed at your software
anyway, so you might as well not pay for it. Try Open Source.
RE: Velocity Market Acceptance
Posted by Ewan Makepeace <ew...@yahoo.com>.
We have just completed:
http://www.goodwoodinteriors.com
for a client. This site uses Velocity to generate all index and detail pages
from a database, but the site is served as static pages. If this type of use
qualifies for an entry in the 'powered by velocity' list, please include.
Thanks,
Ewan
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Bauman [mailto:nick@cortexity.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 11:49 AM
To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: Re: Velocity Market Acceptance
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/powered.html
> Geir,
>
> Any idea of how broadly Velocity has been accepted to date by the
> market? Is it yet being used in production systems (and if so, is this
> through existing frameworks or custom code)? Is it yet being used (or
> contemplated to be used) in any commercial systems? Is there any
> commercial documentation yet on VTL (such as books, or in-depth
> articles) existing or planned?
>
> Regards,
>
> Terry
>
> PS: I'll certainly do my part to see that this happens, but it would
> help to know the current depth of market penetration.
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: Velocity Market Acceptance
Posted by Nick Bauman <ni...@cortexity.com>.
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/powered.html
> Geir,
>
> Any idea of how broadly Velocity has been accepted to date by the
> market? Is it yet being used in production systems (and if so, is this
> through existing frameworks or custom code)? Is it yet being used (or
> contemplated to be used) in any commercial systems? Is there any
> commercial documentation yet on VTL (such as books, or in-depth
> articles) existing or planned?
>
> Regards,
>
> Terry
>
> PS: I'll certainly do my part to see that this happens, but it would
> help to know the current depth of market penetration.
Re: Velocity Market Acceptance
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 10/16/01 12:51 PM, "Terry Steichen" <te...@net-frame.com> wrote:
> Geir,
>
> In your most recent response on this topic you said Velocity is considered
> (by many?) as a disruptive technology. I assume this means they consider
> Velocity to be an alternative to other systems rather than additive to them?
Sort of. It *is* an alternative to JSP in the J2EE environment. I think of
this as a testament to the flexibility and openness of J2EE in that another
view technology can be used w/o any modification to the J2EE spec or servlet
container - your Velocity based application is wholly portable from one
servlet spec compliant container to another.
AFAIK, Msft doesn't give you this freedom and flexibility.
Some consider the fact that Velocity (and WebMacro and...) do take
'mindshare' away from JSP to be a bad thing. In some narrow ways it is -
especially if you are aiming for people just getting into it. However, as an
experienced developer, I am more comfortable when I can choose among several
ways to get the job done, and not be forced into *one* way. Velocity isn't
for everyone. JSP isn't for everyone. People can choose. People can use
both...
>
> You also mentioned that Velocity is not a big part of the overall system. I
> agree (and certainly the code itself is quite compact). But I would not be
> surprised to find a lot of pent-up demand out there, existing and growing
> because folks can't really produce the kinds of applications in the desired
> quantity with existing, main line technologies (like JSP, ASP, CF, etc.).
> It's just too hard. They do what they can and make do with that.
Sure - but in a webapp, Velocity is a minor player. Not irrelevant or
unimportant, but minor. There is the webserver, a servlet container, the
servlet/controller, the application logic, the data model, the database,
etc... That's all I meant.
> Finally, regarding your comment suggesting that Velocity would not justify a
> book. With all due respect, as a relative newbie I have to say that
> Velocity (just like many/most open source projects) suffers from a bad case
> of what I call the COIK** fallacy. The level of technical knowledge of
> yourself and your closest collaborators is, I suspect, pretty intimidating
> to less technically inclined users of Velocity. Your documentation is quite
> thorough - from a 'techie' perspective (including both the users' and
> developers' docs) - but it (quite understandably) does not provide more
> business-oriented technicians with suggestions on how to best use the
> plethora of great features.
No worries. I want to write a book on it. I have tons of things to write
about. I am just trying to arrange my life and bootstrap the process.
I realize 100% that this stuff isn't obvious to a first time user. I was a
first time user once as well with web development, and vowed that I would
try to make the process easier for others...
I tend to behave like a screaming lunatic when things are broken or badly
written/documented, so I understand :)
>
>
> **Clear Only If Known - I can personally attest to how difficult it was to
> initially grasp many key features and capabilities; features which now seem
> quite logical and clear (and even more impressive) after a lot of digging
> and reflecting.
When you were coming up to speed, the thing that went through my head was
that you should just 'let go a little'. I can't explain it, and I think
that you may understand the gist of it now...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>
> To: <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 6:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Velocity Market Acceptance
>
>
>> On 10/15/01 11:45 PM, "Terry Steichen" <te...@net-frame.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Geir,
>>>
>>> Any idea of how broadly Velocity has been accepted to date by the
> market? Is
>>> it yet being used in production systems (and if so, is this through
> existing
>>> frameworks or custom code)? Is it yet being used (or contemplated to be
> used)
>>> in any commercial systems? Is there any commercial documentation yet on
> VTL
>>> (such as books, or in-depth articles) existing or planned?
>>
>> It is being used in production systems. It's just hard to figure out how
>> many. I have 4 clients who are using it, three for systems that are
>> 'main-line' for their business - Velocity is key for a significant aspect
> of
>> their business operations. The fourth, a software development house, uses
>> it for for a webapp that manages generation and tracking of software
>> licenses for software they sell. (They could limp along w/ Excel if they
>> had to, so to speak...)
>>
>> We know of a few products that use it, and other websites. I suspect that
>> there are way more than we are aware of. The code is certainly production
>> quality.
>>
>> Speak up, people!
>>
>> There are several articles out there, two articles in the pipeline :) ,
>> with hopefully more following, and prayers are going out to ${DIETY} for a
>> JavaOne session and BOF. I have slim hopes for the latter, but that is
> our
>> best chance to be able to show that it's not a disruptive technology
> (which
>> it is considered), but rather something that (when used for the web) adds
>> value to the J2EE platform by giving users choice.
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>>> PS: I'll certainly do my part to see that this happens, but it would
> help to
>>> know the current depth of market penetration.
>>
>> It's really hard to say for a bunch of reasons.
>>
>> - First, the market penetration is relatively small :)
>> - Second, it's really a small part of any system. We think the world
>> revolves around it because we are so close to it, but the world doesn't.
> It
>> turns out to be 'fire and forget' - you get it into your system, and it
>> works well, doesn't give you trouble, and designers figure it out. I
> mean,
>> who thinks about using javascript? At least I can remember VTL....
>> - Third, it's relatively simple, we have decent docs and a good,
> supportive
>> user community, so you don't need a three-volume Wrox set to use it. Can
>> you imagine? "Leveraging Velocity in the .NET Enterprise : Professional
> to
>> Professional" [Aside - if I ever write a Wrox book, I am going to put a
>> picture of my *cat* on the cover... Who wants to look at my face?]
>>
>> The market penetration issue can be a problem, as technology isn't always
>> chosen for it's merits, but popularity. It's something we are working on,
>> and carefully.
>>
>> geir
>>
>> --
>> Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
>> System and Software Consulting
>> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety
>> deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
>>
>>
>>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
You're going to end up getting pissed at your software
anyway, so you might as well not pay for it. Try Open Source.
Re: Velocity Market Acceptance
Posted by Terry Steichen <te...@net-frame.com>.
Geir,
In your most recent response on this topic you said Velocity is considered
(by many?) as a disruptive technology. I assume this means they consider
Velocity to be an alternative to other systems rather than additive to them?
You also mentioned that Velocity is not a big part of the overall system. I
agree (and certainly the code itself is quite compact). But I would not be
surprised to find a lot of pent-up demand out there, existing and growing
because folks can't really produce the kinds of applications in the desired
quantity with existing, main line technologies (like JSP, ASP, CF, etc.).
It's just too hard. They do what they can and make do with that.
Finally, regarding your comment suggesting that Velocity would not justify a
book. With all due respect, as a relative newbie I have to say that
Velocity (just like many/most open source projects) suffers from a bad case
of what I call the COIK** fallacy. The level of technical knowledge of
yourself and your closest collaborators is, I suspect, pretty intimidating
to less technically inclined users of Velocity. Your documentation is quite
thorough - from a 'techie' perspective (including both the users' and
developers' docs) - but it (quite understandably) does not provide more
business-oriented technicians with suggestions on how to best use the
plethora of great features.
Regards,
Terry
**Clear Only If Known - I can personally attest to how difficult it was to
initially grasp many key features and capabilities; features which now seem
quite logical and clear (and even more impressive) after a lot of digging
and reflecting.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>
To: <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 6:15 AM
Subject: Re: Velocity Market Acceptance
> On 10/15/01 11:45 PM, "Terry Steichen" <te...@net-frame.com> wrote:
>
> > Geir,
> >
> > Any idea of how broadly Velocity has been accepted to date by the
market? Is
> > it yet being used in production systems (and if so, is this through
existing
> > frameworks or custom code)? Is it yet being used (or contemplated to be
used)
> > in any commercial systems? Is there any commercial documentation yet on
VTL
> > (such as books, or in-depth articles) existing or planned?
>
> It is being used in production systems. It's just hard to figure out how
> many. I have 4 clients who are using it, three for systems that are
> 'main-line' for their business - Velocity is key for a significant aspect
of
> their business operations. The fourth, a software development house, uses
> it for for a webapp that manages generation and tracking of software
> licenses for software they sell. (They could limp along w/ Excel if they
> had to, so to speak...)
>
> We know of a few products that use it, and other websites. I suspect that
> there are way more than we are aware of. The code is certainly production
> quality.
>
> Speak up, people!
>
> There are several articles out there, two articles in the pipeline :) ,
> with hopefully more following, and prayers are going out to ${DIETY} for a
> JavaOne session and BOF. I have slim hopes for the latter, but that is
our
> best chance to be able to show that it's not a disruptive technology
(which
> it is considered), but rather something that (when used for the web) adds
> value to the J2EE platform by giving users choice.
>
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Terry
> >
> > PS: I'll certainly do my part to see that this happens, but it would
help to
> > know the current depth of market penetration.
>
> It's really hard to say for a bunch of reasons.
>
> - First, the market penetration is relatively small :)
> - Second, it's really a small part of any system. We think the world
> revolves around it because we are so close to it, but the world doesn't.
It
> turns out to be 'fire and forget' - you get it into your system, and it
> works well, doesn't give you trouble, and designers figure it out. I
mean,
> who thinks about using javascript? At least I can remember VTL....
> - Third, it's relatively simple, we have decent docs and a good,
supportive
> user community, so you don't need a three-volume Wrox set to use it. Can
> you imagine? "Leveraging Velocity in the .NET Enterprise : Professional
to
> Professional" [Aside - if I ever write a Wrox book, I am going to put a
> picture of my *cat* on the cover... Who wants to look at my face?]
>
> The market penetration issue can be a problem, as technology isn't always
> chosen for it's merits, but popularity. It's something we are working on,
> and carefully.
>
> geir
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
> System and Software Consulting
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety
> deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
>
>
>
Re: Velocity Market Acceptance
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 10/16/01 1:08 PM, "Rick Gibbs" <ri...@earthcars.com> wrote:
>>> Speak up, people!
>>>
>
> At dealer.com we have close to 200 seperate client websites that use
> Velocity for all dynamic content. We are migrating more clients every
> week so that number should grow quite rapidly. We used to jsp for all
> of the content generation but 6 months we made the jump to velocity and
> haven't regretted it for a second.
>
That's great!!
1) Can I put that on powered-by, and can I use the above as a quote with
your name? 'No' is an acceptable answer for any or all, but I would at
least like to list you.
2) Can you find me a good deal on a 2001 BMW 540i? Don't mind automatic,
would want all options except for the nav system... :)
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the
freeness of speech." - Benjamin Franklin
Re: Velocity Market Acceptance
Posted by Rick Gibbs <ri...@earthcars.com>.
Isn't that always the case, send out an email promoting a site and there
is maintenance being done. Its back up now.
On Tue, 2001-10-16 at 14:06, Richard Neish wrote:
> http://www.dealer.com/ returns an error message:
> "Can't contact servlet runner at 209.23.95.81:6888"
>
Re: Velocity Market Acceptance
Posted by Richard Neish <ri...@rmp.com.jm>.
http://www.dealer.com/ returns an error message:
"Can't contact servlet runner at 209.23.95.81:6888"
Re: Velocity Market Acceptance
Posted by Rick Gibbs <ri...@earthcars.com>.
> > Speak up, people!
> >
At dealer.com we have close to 200 seperate client websites that use
Velocity for all dynamic content. We are migrating more clients every
week so that number should grow quite rapidly. We used to jsp for all
of the content generation but 6 months we made the jump to velocity and
haven't regretted it for a second.
Rick
___________________
Rick Gibbs
CTO
Dealer.com
rick@dealer.com
Re: Velocity Market Acceptance
Posted by Barbara Baughman <ba...@utdallas.edu>.
I wrote my first test application as a servlet. I wrote the second as a
series of jsp programs, and that was better. I wrote my production system
using Velocity, and as far as I'm concerned, Velocity wins hands down. I
am about to launch another app that uses Velocity.
These are relatively small apps, and are for private use by my company.
I'm the only one who works on them (no designer group, no database
management group), so the need to have templates that a non-programmer can
work with isn't even an issue. I like the logical organization it imposes
on preparing the application, because it separates things that are easier
to maintain if they're separate. The loadConfiguration() method takes
care of all initialization. The standard handleTemplate just needs to get
the template name. I have another method getTemplate() that determines
what controller to forward the processing, depending on the CGI parameters
passed. Then methods within the controller manipulate data, load the
context and send the template name back to getTemplate() (and thus
handleTemplate()). The templates are pretty straightforward and easy to
change.
Pretty easy to troubleshoot and maintain and develop, even for a newbie
without a framework. Thanks for a great product.
Just thought you might like to hear from a small-time developer, too.
Barbara Baughman
University of Texas at Dallas
On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 10/15/01 11:45 PM, "Terry Steichen" <te...@net-frame.com> wrote:
>
> > Geir,
> >
> > Any idea of how broadly Velocity has been accepted to date by the market? Is
> > it yet being used in production systems (and if so, is this through existing
> > frameworks or custom code)? Is it yet being used (or contemplated to be used)
> > in any commercial systems? Is there any commercial documentation yet on VTL
> > (such as books, or in-depth articles) existing or planned?
>
> It is being used in production systems. It's just hard to figure out how
> many. I have 4 clients who are using it, three for systems that are
> 'main-line' for their business - Velocity is key for a significant aspect of
> their business operations. The fourth, a software development house, uses
> it for for a webapp that manages generation and tracking of software
> licenses for software they sell. (They could limp along w/ Excel if they
> had to, so to speak...)
>
> We know of a few products that use it, and other websites. I suspect that
> there are way more than we are aware of. The code is certainly production
> quality.
>
> Speak up, people!
>
> There are several articles out there, two articles in the pipeline :) ,
> with hopefully more following, and prayers are going out to ${DIETY} for a
> JavaOne session and BOF. I have slim hopes for the latter, but that is our
> best chance to be able to show that it's not a disruptive technology (which
> it is considered), but rather something that (when used for the web) adds
> value to the J2EE platform by giving users choice.
>
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Terry
> >
> > PS: I'll certainly do my part to see that this happens, but it would help to
> > know the current depth of market penetration.
>
> It's really hard to say for a bunch of reasons.
>
> - First, the market penetration is relatively small :)
> - Second, it's really a small part of any system. We think the world
> revolves around it because we are so close to it, but the world doesn't. It
> turns out to be 'fire and forget' - you get it into your system, and it
> works well, doesn't give you trouble, and designers figure it out. I mean,
> who thinks about using javascript? At least I can remember VTL....
> - Third, it's relatively simple, we have decent docs and a good, supportive
> user community, so you don't need a three-volume Wrox set to use it. Can
> you imagine? "Leveraging Velocity in the .NET Enterprise : Professional to
> Professional" [Aside - if I ever write a Wrox book, I am going to put a
> picture of my *cat* on the cover... Who wants to look at my face?]
>
> The market penetration issue can be a problem, as technology isn't always
> chosen for it's merits, but popularity. It's something we are working on,
> and carefully.
>
> geir
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
> System and Software Consulting
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
> deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
>
>
>
Re: Velocity Market Acceptance
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 10/15/01 11:45 PM, "Terry Steichen" <te...@net-frame.com> wrote:
> Geir,
>
> Any idea of how broadly Velocity has been accepted to date by the market? Is
> it yet being used in production systems (and if so, is this through existing
> frameworks or custom code)? Is it yet being used (or contemplated to be used)
> in any commercial systems? Is there any commercial documentation yet on VTL
> (such as books, or in-depth articles) existing or planned?
It is being used in production systems. It's just hard to figure out how
many. I have 4 clients who are using it, three for systems that are
'main-line' for their business - Velocity is key for a significant aspect of
their business operations. The fourth, a software development house, uses
it for for a webapp that manages generation and tracking of software
licenses for software they sell. (They could limp along w/ Excel if they
had to, so to speak...)
We know of a few products that use it, and other websites. I suspect that
there are way more than we are aware of. The code is certainly production
quality.
Speak up, people!
There are several articles out there, two articles in the pipeline :) ,
with hopefully more following, and prayers are going out to ${DIETY} for a
JavaOne session and BOF. I have slim hopes for the latter, but that is our
best chance to be able to show that it's not a disruptive technology (which
it is considered), but rather something that (when used for the web) adds
value to the J2EE platform by giving users choice.
>
> Regards,
>
> Terry
>
> PS: I'll certainly do my part to see that this happens, but it would help to
> know the current depth of market penetration.
It's really hard to say for a bunch of reasons.
- First, the market penetration is relatively small :)
- Second, it's really a small part of any system. We think the world
revolves around it because we are so close to it, but the world doesn't. It
turns out to be 'fire and forget' - you get it into your system, and it
works well, doesn't give you trouble, and designers figure it out. I mean,
who thinks about using javascript? At least I can remember VTL....
- Third, it's relatively simple, we have decent docs and a good, supportive
user community, so you don't need a three-volume Wrox set to use it. Can
you imagine? "Leveraging Velocity in the .NET Enterprise : Professional to
Professional" [Aside - if I ever write a Wrox book, I am going to put a
picture of my *cat* on the cover... Who wants to look at my face?]
The market penetration issue can be a problem, as technology isn't always
chosen for it's merits, but popularity. It's something we are working on,
and carefully.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin