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Posted to users@cocoon.apache.org by Reinhard Poetz <re...@apache.org> on 2006/08/10 11:32:50 UTC
[poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
On dev@cocoon we have started to dicuss whether we can make Java 5 becoming the
minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2. Note that this discussion is completly
unrelated to Cocoon 2.1 which needs JDK 1.3.
The arguments pro Java 5 which was officially releases almost 2 years ago, are
the support of generics, annotations, build-in JMX, simpler loop syntax, and
many small improvements to a lot of classes.
As Cocoon 2.2 hasn't been released yet, there is no existing user base. Hence
people are not forced to use Java 5 just because of a new patch release. We plan
to do a release based on the 2.1.X branch within the next months, which might be
the last one of this series.
The question now is whether making Java 5 the minimum requirement is a hurdle
for people who plan to migrate or not.
Your opinion is appreciated!
--
Reinhard Pötz Independent Consultant, Trainer & (IT)-Coach
{Software Engineering, Open Source, Web Applications, Apache Cocoon}
web(log): http://www.poetz.cc
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Erron Austin <er...@gmail.com>.
+1
Erron
On 8/16/06, Ralph Skulbörstad <ra...@jak.se> wrote:
>
> +1
> Ralph
>
>
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Ralph Skulbörstad <ra...@jak.se>.
+1
Ralph
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Alessandro Vincelli <av...@alessandro.vincelli.name>.
Reinhard Poetz ha scritto:
>
> On dev@cocoon we have started to dicuss whether we can make Java 5
> becoming the minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2. Note that this
> discussion is completly unrelated to Cocoon 2.1 which needs JDK 1.3.
>
> The arguments pro Java 5 which was officially releases almost 2 years
> ago, are the support of generics, annotations, build-in JMX, simpler
> loop syntax, and many small improvements to a lot of classes.
>
> As Cocoon 2.2 hasn't been released yet, there is no existing user
> base. Hence people are not forced to use Java 5 just because of a new
> patch release. We plan to do a release based on the 2.1.X branch
> within the next months, which might be the last one of this series.
>
> The question now is whether making Java 5 the minimum requirement is a
> hurdle for people who plan to migrate or not.
>
> Your opinion is appreciated!
>
+1
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Grzegorz Kossakowski <gr...@tuffmail.com>.
werner napisał(a):
> +1
>
> * Cocoon was always "next generation" technology. I think it's more
> fun for the developers to work with Java 5. Fun is an important factor
> in open source projects.
> * It will take some time until a new stable Cocoon 2.2 will be out and
> it will take much more time until people have migrated their
> applications. The migration work has to be done anyway.
+1 for all arguments and whole idea
--
Grzegorz Kossakowski
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by werner <we...@gefi.at>.
Reinhard Poetz wrote:
>
> On dev@cocoon we have started to dicuss whether we can make Java 5
> becoming the minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2. Note that this
> discussion is completly unrelated to Cocoon 2.1 which needs JDK 1.3.
>
> The arguments pro Java 5 which was officially releases almost 2 years
> ago, are the support of generics, annotations, build-in JMX, simpler
> loop syntax, and many small improvements to a lot of classes.
>
> As Cocoon 2.2 hasn't been released yet, there is no existing user
> base. Hence people are not forced to use Java 5 just because of a new
> patch release. We plan to do a release based on the 2.1.X branch
> within the next months, which might be the last one of this series.
>
> The question now is whether making Java 5 the minimum requirement is a
> hurdle for people who plan to migrate or not.
>
> Your opinion is appreciated!
>
+1
* Cocoon was always "next generation" technology. I think it's more fun
for the developers to work with Java 5. Fun is an important factor in
open source projects.
* It will take some time until a new stable Cocoon 2.2 will be out and
it will take much more time until people have migrated their
applications. The migration work has to be done anyway.
Regards
Werner
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Kamal Bhatt <kb...@tt.com.au>.
Bruce Atherton wrote:
> Reinhard Poetz wrote:
>>
>> Many thanks to everybody, who has participated so far, for your
>> feedback.
>>
>> On dev@cocoon we voted about it and the voting proposal was rejected.
>> The main reason is that large organizations (e.g. banks) are years
>> behind in their usage of new JDK releases and that we haven't found
>> _the_ feature of Java 5 that justifies the switch.
>>
>
> That is a shame. If this were the only criterion, Cocoon will not be
> able to use the features of Java 5 for 20 years or more. Think how
> many Cobol programmers were fully employed leading up to Y2K. I
> imagine that some banks are still using JVM 1.2 now (and I doubt that
> Cocoon 2.2 is compatible with that).
>
> I have faith that concern for ultra-conservative organizations isn't
> the only consideration the developers are using, though. So have they
> decided what will finally allow a move to Java 5? Just so we know when
> we can look forward to it.
>
I am finding this conversation very interesting. Mainly because I don't
quite follow the logic. If a company is so backwards that they are still
on JDK 1.3, why on earth would they be using a heavy weight, bleeding
edge system like Cocoon. There are probably good reasons not to go to
Java 5, but I am not sold that the one given is the right one.
I'd be interested to know what companies are banking (pardon the pun) on
Cocoon, but are still in locked in the 1990's. Is there are survey on
Cocoon usage out there?
--
Kamal Bhatt
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
Grzegorz Kossakowski escribió:
> Marc Driftmeyer napisał(a):
>> If Banking Institutions are the reason then we should fork the tree to
>> have two branches ala Firefox.
>>
>> One that targets legacy systems and the other for moving the system
>> forward.
> There are already two branches! One "2.1.x" and another "trunk". When
> we C2.2 is out, then we have three branches: 2.1.x, 2.2.x, trunk.
> Trunk would be used as line for 2.3/3.0 development, there would go
> stuff like OSGi. 2.1.x branch would be maintain only for critical bugs
> and fixes but it is what should banking institutions expect. Now,
> being stuck with Java 1.4 they do not expect it to support annotations
> in the future. Why they should not go for the same when it comes to
> Cocoon?
>
I hope our developers will agree to use 1.5 for 2.3/3.0. ;-)
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo.
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Marc Driftmeyer <md...@yahoo.com>.
Just an observation, but isn't 2.2 a redesign from 2.1.x branch that
significantly restructured Cocoon (Maven, CForms, XSP deprecated, etc)?
2.1.x is legacy as 1.8.x is now legacy. 2.2 would be current and
2.3/3.0 development/experimental.
Debian has 4 Branches. At least if all possible their should be a
Sid/Unstable branch that isn't Experimental and isn't Stable for Cocoon
that would allow us to use most of the modern features in Java 5, let
alone Java 6 when it rolls out from Beta and Release Candidate
statuses.
What still seems to be dead in the water is Documentation and I mean
documentation that reminds one of the Cocoon Developer Handbook by
Moczar/Aston.
I recall about 9 months ago that this was a priority. From the Cocoon
site I don't see it has reached fruition. I see a lot of documentation
fractured across the Net via various wikis and other individual sites
but I don't see a repository of Documentation that one can funnel that
provides these practical/best practices, hands-on tutorials that were
envisioned.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
- Marc
--- Grzegorz Kossakowski <gr...@tuffmail.com> wrote:
> Marc Driftmeyer napisaÅ(a):
> > If Banking Institutions are the reason then we should fork the tree
> to
> > have two branches ala Firefox.
> >
> > One that targets legacy systems and the other for moving the system
> > forward.
> >
> There are already two branches! One "2.1.x" and another "trunk". When
> we
> C2.2 is out, then we have three branches: 2.1.x, 2.2.x, trunk. Trunk
> would be used as line for 2.3/3.0 development, there would go stuff
> like
> OSGi. 2.1.x branch would be maintain only for critical bugs and fixes
>
> but it is what should banking institutions expect. Now, being stuck
> with
> Java 1.4 they do not expect it to support annotations in the future.
> Why
> they should not go for the same when it comes to Cocoon?
>
> --
> Grzegorz Kossakowski
>
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Grzegorz Kossakowski <gr...@tuffmail.com>.
Marc Driftmeyer napisał(a):
> If Banking Institutions are the reason then we should fork the tree to
> have two branches ala Firefox.
>
> One that targets legacy systems and the other for moving the system
> forward.
>
There are already two branches! One "2.1.x" and another "trunk". When we
C2.2 is out, then we have three branches: 2.1.x, 2.2.x, trunk. Trunk
would be used as line for 2.3/3.0 development, there would go stuff like
OSGi. 2.1.x branch would be maintain only for critical bugs and fixes
but it is what should banking institutions expect. Now, being stuck with
Java 1.4 they do not expect it to support annotations in the future. Why
they should not go for the same when it comes to Cocoon?
--
Grzegorz Kossakowski
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Marc Driftmeyer <md...@yahoo.com>.
If Banking Institutions are the reason then we should fork the tree to
have two branches ala Firefox.
One that targets legacy systems and the other for moving the system
forward.
- Marc
--- Bruce Atherton <br...@callenish.com> wrote:
> Reinhard Poetz wrote:
> >
> > Many thanks to everybody, who has participated so far, for your
> feedback.
> >
> > On dev@cocoon we voted about it and the voting proposal was
> rejected.
> > The main reason is that large organizations (e.g. banks) are years
> > behind in their usage of new JDK releases and that we haven't found
>
> > _the_ feature of Java 5 that justifies the switch.
> >
>
> That is a shame. If this were the only criterion, Cocoon will not be
> able to use the features of Java 5 for 20 years or more. Think how
> many
> Cobol programmers were fully employed leading up to Y2K. I imagine
> that
> some banks are still using JVM 1.2 now (and I doubt that Cocoon 2.2
> is
> compatible with that).
>
> I have faith that concern for ultra-conservative organizations isn't
> the
> only consideration the developers are using, though. So have they
> decided what will finally allow a move to Java 5? Just so we know
> when
> we can look forward to it.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
>
>
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Bruce Atherton <br...@callenish.com>.
Reinhard Poetz wrote:
>
> Many thanks to everybody, who has participated so far, for your feedback.
>
> On dev@cocoon we voted about it and the voting proposal was rejected.
> The main reason is that large organizations (e.g. banks) are years
> behind in their usage of new JDK releases and that we haven't found
> _the_ feature of Java 5 that justifies the switch.
>
That is a shame. If this were the only criterion, Cocoon will not be
able to use the features of Java 5 for 20 years or more. Think how many
Cobol programmers were fully employed leading up to Y2K. I imagine that
some banks are still using JVM 1.2 now (and I doubt that Cocoon 2.2 is
compatible with that).
I have faith that concern for ultra-conservative organizations isn't the
only consideration the developers are using, though. So have they
decided what will finally allow a move to Java 5? Just so we know when
we can look forward to it.
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Ralph Goers <Ra...@dslextreme.com>.
Reinhard Poetz wrote:
> Many thanks to everybody, who has participated so far, for your feedback.
>
> On dev@cocoon we voted about it and the voting proposal was rejected.
> The main reason is that large organizations (e.g. banks) are years
> behind in their usage of new JDK releases and that we haven't found
> _the_ feature of Java 5 that justifies the switch.
I should point out that this in no way limits users from using Java 5.
It just means that Cocoon 2.2 will not require Java 5 as the minimum JDK
version (It will be JDK 1.4).
Ralph
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Reinhard Poetz <re...@apache.org>.
Reinhard Poetz wrote:
>
> On dev@cocoon we have started to dicuss whether we can make Java 5
> becoming the minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2. Note that this
> discussion is completly unrelated to Cocoon 2.1 which needs JDK 1.3.
>
> The arguments pro Java 5 which was officially releases almost 2 years
> ago, are the support of generics, annotations, build-in JMX, simpler
> loop syntax, and many small improvements to a lot of classes.
>
> As Cocoon 2.2 hasn't been released yet, there is no existing user base.
> Hence people are not forced to use Java 5 just because of a new patch
> release. We plan to do a release based on the 2.1.X branch within the
> next months, which might be the last one of this series.
>
> The question now is whether making Java 5 the minimum requirement is a
> hurdle for people who plan to migrate or not.
>
> Your opinion is appreciated!
Many thanks to everybody, who has participated so far, for your feedback.
On dev@cocoon we voted about it and the voting proposal was rejected. The main
reason is that large organizations (e.g. banks) are years behind in their usage
of new JDK releases and that we haven't found _the_ feature of Java 5 that
justifies the switch.
--
Reinhard Pötz Independent Consultant, Trainer & (IT)-Coach
{Software Engineering, Open Source, Web Applications, Apache Cocoon}
web(log): http://www.poetz.cc
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Derek Hohls <DH...@csir.co.za>.
Fine by me.
>>> Reinhard Poetz <re...@apache.org> 2006/08/10 11:32 AM >>>
On dev@cocoon we have started to dicuss whether we can make Java 5 becoming the
minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2. Note that this discussion is completly
unrelated to Cocoon 2.1 which needs JDK 1.3.
The arguments pro Java 5 which was officially releases almost 2 years ago, are
the support of generics, annotations, build-in JMX, simpler loop syntax, and
many small improvements to a lot of classes.
As Cocoon 2.2 hasn't been released yet, there is no existing user base. Hence
people are not forced to use Java 5 just because of a new patch release. We plan
to do a release based on the 2.1.X branch within the next months, which might be
the last one of this series.
The question now is whether making Java 5 the minimum requirement is a hurdle
for people who plan to migrate or not.
Your opinion is appreciated!
--
Reinhard Pötz Independent Consultant, Trainer & (IT)-Coach
{Software Engineering, Open Source, Web Applications, Apache Cocoon}
web(log): http://www.poetz.cc
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Bruce Atherton <br...@callenish.com>.
Count this as a big +1 from me. We only run cocoon in a Java 5 VM anyway.
The Concurrency package alone is a big reason to adopt Java 5. The speed
of many algorithms can be vastly improved, as well as being made more
thread-safe. Then there is the enhanced type safety you get with
generics. You can even get significant code reduction while maintaining
type safety when generics are properly applied, by removing duplicated
code that changes only by its type.
If you wait until after 2.2 is released to upgrade the required JVM for
cocoon, you then have to worry about how many existing 2.2 users you
leave high and dry. By making the move at this time, there is a logical
break. Any users that want to use an earlier VM can still use the 2.1
branch. Presumably the 2.1 branch will be maintained as a bug-fix
branch, which probably wouldn't be the case for some 2.2.x release if
you decided to up the required JVM for the 2.2.x+1 release.
Also, there are projects around that let you run Java 5 code on earlier
VMs, so if someone really needed to run Cocoon 2.2 on an older JVM they
could look into that.
In summary: Just Giv'er!
Reinhard Poetz wrote:
>
> On dev@cocoon we have started to dicuss whether we can make Java 5
> becoming the minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2. Note that this
> discussion is completly unrelated to Cocoon 2.1 which needs JDK 1.3.
>
> The arguments pro Java 5 which was officially releases almost 2 years
> ago, are the support of generics, annotations, build-in JMX, simpler
> loop syntax, and many small improvements to a lot of classes.
>
> As Cocoon 2.2 hasn't been released yet, there is no existing user
> base. Hence people are not forced to use Java 5 just because of a new
> patch release. We plan to do a release based on the 2.1.X branch
> within the next months, which might be the last one of this series.
>
> The question now is whether making Java 5 the minimum requirement is a
> hurdle for people who plan to migrate or not.
>
> Your opinion is appreciated!
>
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Andre Juffer <An...@oulu.fi>.
I think, we should, given also that Java 6 is in the pipeline.
Reinhard Poetz wrote:
>
> On dev@cocoon we have started to dicuss whether we can make Java 5
> becoming the minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2. Note that this
> discussion is completly unrelated to Cocoon 2.1 which needs JDK 1.3.
>
> The arguments pro Java 5 which was officially releases almost 2 years
> ago, are the support of generics, annotations, build-in JMX, simpler
> loop syntax, and many small improvements to a lot of classes.
>
> As Cocoon 2.2 hasn't been released yet, there is no existing user base.
> Hence people are not forced to use Java 5 just because of a new patch
> release. We plan to do a release based on the 2.1.X branch within the
> next months, which might be the last one of this series.
>
> The question now is whether making Java 5 the minimum requirement is a
> hurdle for people who plan to migrate or not.
>
> Your opinion is appreciated!
>
--
Andre H. Juffer | Phone: +358-8-553 1161
The Biocenter and | Fax: +358-8-553-1141
the Dep. of Biochemistry | Email: Andre.Juffer@oulu.fi
University of Oulu, Finland | WWW: www.biochem.oulu.fi/Biocomputing/
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Cocoon is a "bleeding-edge"?! ( WAS Re: [poll] Java 5 as
minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2)
Posted by Derek Hohls <DH...@csir.co.za>.
Quote: "I use cocoon because I like bleeding-edge technologies"
Surely Cocoon is an incredibly stable, mainstream application by now -
in the same ball-park as Struts et al.
After all, its been around about 7 years!
"Ruby on rails"... now *that* might be "bleeding-edge"!
>>> Johannes Textor <jc...@gmx.de> 2006/08/16 09:04 PM >>>
+1
This comes from my user perspective, since I don't normally depend on
large entities to host my applications, but can rather set up my own
servers and install the software I need. In fact, I think that
entities
with a more conservative migration strategy would not typically use
cocoon to develop their applications - but maybe I'm wrong.
I use cocoon because I like bleeding-edge technologies when I see
clear
benefits in them. Interestingly, I haven't made the switch to Java 5
for
programming tasks yet .. in fact, if cocoon requires J5 in the future,
this might be a reason to finally upgrade my java versions :)
Cheers,
Johannes
> The question now is whether making Java 5 the minimum requirement is
a
> hurdle for people who plan to migrate or not.
>
> Your opinion is appreciated!
>
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Johannes Textor <jc...@gmx.de>.
+1
This comes from my user perspective, since I don't normally depend on
large entities to host my applications, but can rather set up my own
servers and install the software I need. In fact, I think that entities
with a more conservative migration strategy would not typically use
cocoon to develop their applications - but maybe I'm wrong.
I use cocoon because I like bleeding-edge technologies when I see clear
benefits in them. Interestingly, I haven't made the switch to Java 5 for
programming tasks yet .. in fact, if cocoon requires J5 in the future,
this might be a reason to finally upgrade my java versions :)
Cheers,
Johannes
> The question now is whether making Java 5 the minimum requirement is a
> hurdle for people who plan to migrate or not.
>
> Your opinion is appreciated!
>
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Askild Aaberg Olsen <as...@xangeli.com>.
Reinhard Poetz wrote:
>
> On dev@cocoon we have started to dicuss whether we can make Java 5
> becoming the minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2.
+1
Askild
-
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Aleksander Bandelj <al...@academa.si>.
+1, Java 1.5 has been here for a while and several projects which we
depend on are going to 1.5 as well
Reinhard Poetz wrote:
>
> On dev@cocoon we have started to dicuss whether we can make Java 5
> becoming the minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2. Note that this
> discussion is completly unrelated to Cocoon 2.1 which needs JDK 1.3.
>
> The arguments pro Java 5 which was officially releases almost 2 years
> ago, are the support of generics, annotations, build-in JMX, simpler
> loop syntax, and many small improvements to a lot of classes.
>
> As Cocoon 2.2 hasn't been released yet, there is no existing user base.
> Hence people are not forced to use Java 5 just because of a new patch
> release. We plan to do a release based on the 2.1.X branch within the
> next months, which might be the last one of this series.
>
> The question now is whether making Java 5 the minimum requirement is a
> hurdle for people who plan to migrate or not.
>
> Your opinion is appreciated!
>
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Patrick Refondini <pa...@pobox.com>.
Reinhard Poetz wrote:
>
> On dev@cocoon we have started to dicuss whether we can make Java 5
> becoming the minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2. Note that this
> discussion is completly unrelated to Cocoon 2.1 which needs JDK 1.3.
>
> The arguments pro Java 5 which was officially releases almost 2 years
> ago, are the support of generics, annotations, build-in JMX, simpler
> loop syntax, and many small improvements to a lot of classes.
>
> As Cocoon 2.2 hasn't been released yet, there is no existing user base.
> Hence people are not forced to use Java 5 just because of a new patch
> release. We plan to do a release based on the 2.1.X branch within the
> next months, which might be the last one of this series.
>
> The question now is whether making Java 5 the minimum requirement is a
> hurdle for people who plan to migrate or not.
>
> Your opinion is appreciated!
>
+1, The company I work at switched the production java applications to
Java 5 this year.
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Re: [poll] Java 5 as minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2
Posted by Marc Driftmeyer <md...@yahoo.com>.
Count me in for Java 5. I've got some concerns with Maven on Debian not
having Maven 2 in its Unstable branch but I'll get over that one.
On OS X Java 5 has been standard for quite sometime. Working with Java
5 for WebObjects or Cocoon2.2 solely would be nice. Java 6 previews are
also installed which I haven't had time to study.
- Marc
--- Reinhard Poetz <re...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On dev@cocoon we have started to dicuss whether we can make Java 5
> becoming the
> minimum requirement for Cocoon 2.2. Note that this discussion is
> completly
> unrelated to Cocoon 2.1 which needs JDK 1.3.
>
> The arguments pro Java 5 which was officially releases almost 2 years
> ago, are
> the support of generics, annotations, build-in JMX, simpler loop
> syntax, and
> many small improvements to a lot of classes.
>
> As Cocoon 2.2 hasn't been released yet, there is no existing user
> base. Hence
> people are not forced to use Java 5 just because of a new patch
> release. We plan
> to do a release based on the 2.1.X branch within the next months,
> which might be
> the last one of this series.
>
> The question now is whether making Java 5 the minimum requirement is
> a hurdle
> for people who plan to migrate or not.
>
> Your opinion is appreciated!
>
> --
> Reinhard Pötz Independent Consultant, Trainer & (IT)-Coach
>
> {Software Engineering, Open Source, Web Applications, Apache Cocoon}
>
> web(log): http://www.poetz.cc
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
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