[DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.

Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution from
China.

One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that active
on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in Chinese.

I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not to
see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions etc
via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.

I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in China
can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues like
this.

Thanks,

Gunnar

On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com> wrote:

Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of years
ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source beyond
English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip to
China.

RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to. We
discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved with
this proposal.

I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will need
to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need to
understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation and as
individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met some of
the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the project
can succeed.

Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.

Ross

---
Twitter: @rgardler

________________________________
From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal

Hi John,

Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for constructive
feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project using
your suggestions.

First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von Gosling,
there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the history was
erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu went
awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also gives
further explanation of the project history in a response below. Indeed,
this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with git),
but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve and
grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?

Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is
the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good mentors,
regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest in
helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in continuing
to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years experience
at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is an
inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay for
the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project and
people to the ASF.

Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good suggestions
for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal. Even
if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving forward.
I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you mentioned
as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ code
base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with his
thoughts:

Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two questions
specifically:

- How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities to
build cross platform clients?
- How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
persistence stores?


Bruce

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> wrote:
>
> > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned about:
> >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
> > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial committers
> > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
> > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
> >
> > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> >
>
> So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I suspect
> its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on the
> product and it was kept internal.
>
> I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache products"
> section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes with
> other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair of one
> of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with the
> other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in their
> code base.
>
> Some other ways to address this section:
>
> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities to
> build cross platform clients?
> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> persistence stores?
>
> etc..
>
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roman.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <br...@skife.org>
> > wrote:
> > > +1 !
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Cool.
> > >>
> > >> +1
> > >>
> > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named
> Apache
> > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed,
easy
> > to
> > >> use
> > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
amounts
> > of
> > >> > streaming data.
> > >> >
> > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following URL:
> > >> >
> > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%
2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> > >> >
> > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> > >> >
> > >> > Thanks,
> > >> >
> > >> > Bruce
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>



--
perl -e 'print
unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*" );'

ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
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7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[vongosling <fe...@gmail.com>]

Hi,Gunnar Tapper, Willem Jiang:

It's a good idea that we can address the questions or issues through email
list.Thanks for your advice. :)

I am chinese hah~ Through the active participation of the community(Google
Group, Apache Jira, Github Issue, even Gitter )these years, I also found
that if we could make the best use of these tools,  it will be helpful to
the standardization of  software feedback and improvement of the efficiency
:)

As for RocketMQ community, although we also have QQ group previously, at
least two years ago.  In the last two years, we start G
oogle Group, Gitter. But as Willem Jiang said. It is not easy thing to
participating for most chinese developer. For this reason, recently,  we
standard our community. All issues must be discuss and post in issues part.
Question ? oh, no ~ you must post your question on StackOverFlow. In there,
your problem may be able to help a friend who has the same problem as you :)


I believe, with more and more chinese developer come here.  they also hope
to seek a simple and efficient way of communication. As for QQ, may be it
is our last resort, it is an effective complement to local group :)





2016-11-11 9:33 GMT+08:00 Willem Jiang <wi...@gmail.com>:

> Hi,
>
> As we can see more and more Chinese developer wants to contribute to
>  Apache Software Foundation, but they still need to overcome the language
> barrier even some technical barriers to really join the community.
>
> I'm prefer to use email instead of IM or forums because all the
> discussion can be accessed from public.  But for lot of average Chinese
> users , they may not use English as their working language, it could be
> hard for them to write English email. With the help of Google Translator,
> it could be easy for us to be in the same page if every one use the mailing
> list to discuss the issues.
>
> We tried to setup a cxf-zh google group(there were about 2 hundred people)
> to encourage the CXF users to discuss question in Chinese during the CXF
> incubation, but few people uses it after the Great Fire Wall  started to
> block the Services of Google.   It's convenient for the people to talk to
> each other within the QQ group in China, but it's hard for people to catch
> up the previous talk which happened before he joined the group.  So I think
>  we need to encourage Chinese developer to use the mailing list as the
> major channel to discussion questions and it could be great if email is
> written in English.
>
>
> Willem Jiang
>
> Blog: http://willemjiang.blogspot.com (English)
>           http://jnn.iteye.com  (Chinese)
> Twitter: willemjiang
> Weibo: 姜宁willem
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> >
> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution from
> > China.
> >
> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
> active
> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
> > Chinese.
> >
> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not to
> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions etc
> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> >
> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
> China
> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues like
> > this.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of years
> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
> beyond
> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip to
> > China.
> >
> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to. We
> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved with
> > this proposal.
> >
> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will
> need
> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need to
> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation and
> as
> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met some
> of
> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the project
> > can succeed.
> >
> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> >
> > Ross
> >
> > ---
> > Twitter: @rgardler
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for constructive
> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
> using
> > your suggestions.
> >
> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von Gosling,
> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the history
> > was
> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
> went
> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
> gives
> > further explanation of the project history in a response below. Indeed,
> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
> git),
> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve and
> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> >
> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since Bruce
> is
> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good mentors,
> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest in
> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
> continuing
> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
> experience
> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is an
> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay for
> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project and
> > people to the ASF.
> >
> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good suggestions
> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal.
> Even
> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
> forward.
> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
> mentioned
> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
> code
> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with his
> > thoughts:
> >
> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two questions
> > specifically:
> >
> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities
> to
> > build cross platform clients?
> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> > persistence stores?
> >
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned about:
> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> > > >
> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial committers
> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
> > > >
> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> > > >
> > >
> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
> > suspect
> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on the
> > > product and it was kept internal.
> > >
> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
> products"
> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
> with
> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair of
> one
> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with the
> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
> > their
> > > code base.
> > >
> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> > >
> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities
> > to
> > > build cross platform clients?
> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> > > persistence stores?
> > >
> > > etc..
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Roman.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <brianm@skife.org
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > +1 !
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Cool.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> +1
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named
> > > Apache
> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed,
> > easy
> > > > to
> > > > >> use
> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
> > amounts
> > > > of
> > > > >> > streaming data.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
> URL:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%
> > 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Thanks,
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Bruce
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---------
> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> org
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > perl -e 'print
> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*" );'
> >
> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com
> %
> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> >
>



-- 
Nothing is impossible

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Willem Jiang <wi...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

As we can see more and more Chinese developer wants to contribute to
 Apache Software Foundation, but they still need to overcome the language
barrier even some technical barriers to really join the community.

I'm prefer to use email instead of IM or forums because all the
discussion can be accessed from public.  But for lot of average Chinese
users , they may not use English as their working language, it could be
hard for them to write English email. With the help of Google Translator,
it could be easy for us to be in the same page if every one use the mailing
list to discuss the issues.

We tried to setup a cxf-zh google group(there were about 2 hundred people)
to encourage the CXF users to discuss question in Chinese during the CXF
incubation, but few people uses it after the Great Fire Wall  started to
block the Services of Google.   It's convenient for the people to talk to
each other within the QQ group in China, but it's hard for people to catch
up the previous talk which happened before he joined the group.  So I think
 we need to encourage Chinese developer to use the mailing list as the
major channel to discussion questions and it could be great if email is
written in English.


Willem Jiang

Blog: http://willemjiang.blogspot.com (English)
          http://jnn.iteye.com  (Chinese)
Twitter: willemjiang
Weibo: 姜宁willem

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>
> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution from
> China.
>
> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that active
> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
> Chinese.
>
> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not to
> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions etc
> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>
> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in China
> can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues like
> this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
>
> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of years
> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source beyond
> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip to
> China.
>
> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to. We
> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved with
> this proposal.
>
> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will need
> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need to
> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation and as
> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met some of
> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the project
> can succeed.
>
> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>
> Ross
>
> ---
> Twitter: @rgardler
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>
> Hi John,
>
> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for constructive
> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project using
> your suggestions.
>
> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von Gosling,
> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the history
> was
> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu went
> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also gives
> further explanation of the project history in a response below. Indeed,
> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with git),
> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve and
> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>
> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is
> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good mentors,
> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest in
> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in continuing
> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years experience
> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is an
> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay for
> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project and
> people to the ASF.
>
> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good suggestions
> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal. Even
> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving forward.
> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you mentioned
> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ code
> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with his
> thoughts:
>
> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two questions
> specifically:
>
> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities to
> build cross platform clients?
> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> persistence stores?
>
>
> Bruce
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned about:
> > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
> > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial committers
> > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
> > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
> > >
> > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> > >
> >
> > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
> suspect
> > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on the
> > product and it was kept internal.
> >
> > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache products"
> > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes with
> > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair of one
> > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with the
> > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
> their
> > code base.
> >
> > Some other ways to address this section:
> >
> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities
> to
> > build cross platform clients?
> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> > persistence stores?
> >
> > etc..
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Roman.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <br...@skife.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > > +1 !
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Cool.
> > > >>
> > > >> +1
> > > >>
> > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named
> > Apache
> > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed,
> easy
> > > to
> > > >> use
> > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
> amounts
> > > of
> > > >> > streaming data.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following URL:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%
> 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Thanks,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Bruce
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> perl -e 'print
> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*" );'
>
> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Liang Chen <ch...@gmail.com>]

Hi

I am Chinese and now leading Apache CarbonData, very happy to see CarbonData
community having the good mailing list traffic:(copy from Luke Han-2's post)
Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants 
HBase          |   610      |    406      |   100 
Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124 
Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61 
CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116 
HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57 
Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25 

I much agree the below points from Bertrand, as long as "the important
community traffic(eg.project's decisions,design discussion, solution
proposal,code issues etc.)" on dev mailing list. 
Use different language to discuss some apache topics which are not important
traffic, should not be a problem.
-------------------------------------------------
As long as the project's decisions happen on its dev list.
Like with any other non-dev-list channel, someone needs to bring
discussions to the dev list as long as they become important - like
affecting the software development as opposed to just being coffee
machine type discussions.
-------------------------------------------------

Regards
Liang


On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Niclas Hedhman <niclas@> wrote:
> ...there have been language specific mailing lists in the past, but they
> tend
> to be short-lived...

I think an important distinction is between a project's dev list,
which is where project decisions must be made. That one must currently
be in English so that ASF members and the Board can review discussions
and decisions if needed, without relying on imperfect translations.

Having users channels in other languages can be useful but that's
probably only viable for big projects with lots of users, so that each
list can be a meaningful community.

IMO chat channels in other languages than English are not really a
problem, as long as the project's decisions happen on its dev list.
Like with any other non-dev-list channel, someone needs to bring
discussions to the dev list as long as they become important - like
affecting the software development as opposed to just being coffee
machine type discussions.

-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Stian Soiland-Reyes <st...@apache.org>]

On 11 Nov 2016 6:18 am, "Luke Han" <lu...@apache.org> wrote:

> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
> access
> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English speakers,
> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache Way.
> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> community, and try
> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the patience
> for those new comers.

The warnings about firewalls are important as many ASFers (myself included)
are now gradually falling in love with third-party providers like GitHub
for ASF projects; but if those services are blocked (for arbitrary other
reasons), then that could cut off whole countries of potential developers
for the benefit of a slightly shinier button for the rest.

We can hope it helps that ASF is a non-profit and largely political-free
organisation (beyond internal and open source policies!) and that *.
apache.org is not generally blocked, but I guess even that could happen.

I hope people are not under the impression that you need to have access to
Google to contribute to Apache projects, any email system which can contact
and receive from @apache.org should work!  SMTP is still pretty resilient,
even if it takes days for a messagr to get through a "manual firewall" it
could still be compatible with 72h voting rules etc.

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:45 AM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
> Adding members@...

Please don't cross-post, especially not between private and public list.

general@incubator is a a fine place to have this discussions.

-Bertrand

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Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.

[Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com>]

Except that automated Chinese-English translation is pretty awful.

---
Twitter: @rgardler

________________________________
From: Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2016 12:17:31 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Cc: members@apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.

Hi,

Copy/paste into a Translator, which detected the language automatically: In practice, the question of the language to use from a list of diffusion is specious. English it the lingua franca of the 21st century.

Du kan göra precis samma sak med ett minoritetsspråk som svenska. Språk är inte längre ett hinder.

Take a look at how the Minecraft generation (I'm blessed with one) operates. They have no issues to jump onto servers that use languages they don't understand and then communicate using Translators. It's pretty awesome. Real-time translators are coming. See Skype Translator for an example.

So, I'd argue that lingua franca is already becoming a thing of the past as people get more comfortable with the idea of using them in everyday life. Heck, just take a look at how people interact on Facebook these days -- the translate function is extremely cool.

You can view language as a barrier to community building or you can use technology to remove the barrier.

Based on this discussion, I am going to add a new section to the main project page that discusses communication in different languages encouraging people to write questions in the own language if they're not comfortable with English -- I rather have the question than no interaction.

I'll tell them that the community uses translator software when needed and that responses is likely to be in English so that they can translate back as needed. A smalll first step but an important one.

Thanks,

Gunnar



On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>> wrote:
En pratique, la question de la langue à utiliser sur une liste de
diffusion est spécieuse. L'anglais est la Lingua Franca du 21ème siècle.


And if you haven't understood what I wrote in my native language, which
is understood by around 500 million people around the globe, I guess you
get my implicit point ;-)


More seriously, it's not about how good are developpers in english :
many of the Apache developpers are not english native speakers, and we
do many mistakes. That does not matter too much : nobody will blame
anyone for that. At some point, code is not in english, but in C, Java,
Scala, etc... If you work as an IT person, you already have to face
english in almost all the technical documents found on internet. Take
the RFCs for instance : have thay all been translated to chinese ?


But the most important thing : we are all about community. It's pretty
hard to build it if you split it in 2, or more, because there is a
language issue. It's going to be hard to communicate between a split
community, way harder than using a very basic english...



Le 11/11/16 à 07:45, Reynold Xin a écrit :
> Adding members@
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org>> wrote:
>
>> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
>> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
>> English?
>>
>> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as English
>> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
>> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when it
>> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much lower
>> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn English
>> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>>
>> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also exclude
>> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of native
>> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 according
>> to Wikipedia.
>>
>> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
>> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lu...@apache.org>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Gunnar,
>>>
>>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
>>> real,
>>> but just
>>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
>>> China,
>>> or any other territories from all of the world.
>>>
>>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and LABEL
>>> for such
>>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of "issue" to
>>> describe like
>>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
>>> others...
>>> that's not right way.
>>>
>>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
>>> contributing to
>>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
>>> involved
>>> in many
>>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
>>>
>>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
>>> mailing
>>> list activity from lists.apache.org<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.apache.org&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C808042edd5b14a5b10a208d40a6fcb8d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636144922670088439&sdata=1chFdFfY9la%2FbEtNjMTJsBSuOmTZCJEiZUlxAZB%2BOCk%3D&reserved=0> [1]:
>>>
>>> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
>>> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
>>> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
>>> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
>>> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
>>> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
>>> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
>>>
>>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
>>> could check
>>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
>>>
>>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
>>> access
>>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English speakers,
>>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache Way.
>>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
>>> community, and try
>>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the patience
>>> for
>>> those new comers.
>>>
>>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our journey,
>>> our experience
>>>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
>>> challenges...through
>>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping many
>>> potential projects
>>> who are interesting to join Apache family.
>>>
>>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
>>> Trafodion
>>> community"
>>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion
>>> PMC
>>> know
>>> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
>>> session recordings and
>>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
>>> discussion
>>> if necessary:-)
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] https://lists.apache.org<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.apache.org&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C808042edd5b14a5b10a208d40a6fcb8d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636144922670088439&sdata=yd6%2BMKDX3c9Z5vMoVegPnaezKxgat4gxauBK9Nx5jsc%3D&reserved=0>  <https://lists.apache.org<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.apache.org&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C808042edd5b14a5b10a208d40a6fcb8d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636144922670097660&sdata=2oNou0brTf1%2BMauWp%2B9qS7RckBdCQ11RfDMnM92sQkI%3D&reserved=0>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution from
>>>> China.
>>>>
>>>> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
>>> active
>>>> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
>>>> Chinese.
>>>>
>>>> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not to
>>>> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions etc
>>>> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
>>>> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
>>> China
>>>> can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues like
>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Gunnar
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
>>> years
>>>> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
>>> beyond
>>>> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip to
>>>> China.
>>>>
>>>> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to. We
>>>> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
>>> with
>>>> this proposal.
>>>>
>>>> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
>>>> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will
>>> need
>>>> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
>>>> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need
>>> to
>>>> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
>>> and as
>>>> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met some
>>> of
>>>> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
>>> project
>>>> can succeed.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>>>>
>>>> Ross
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Twitter: @rgardler
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
>>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org<ma...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>>>>
>>>> Hi John,
>>>>
>>>> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for constructive
>>>> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
>>> using
>>>> your suggestions.
>>>>
>>>> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von Gosling,
>>>> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
>>>> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the history
>>>> was
>>>> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
>>> went
>>>> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
>>> gives
>>>> further explanation of the project history in a response below. Indeed,
>>>> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
>>> git),
>>>> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve
>>> and
>>>> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>>>>
>>>> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
>>> Bruce is
>>>> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
>>>> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good mentors,
>>>> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest in
>>>> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
>>> continuing
>>>> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
>>> experience
>>>> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
>>>> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
>>>> constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
>>>> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is an
>>>> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
>>>> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay for
>>>> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project and
>>>> people to the ASF.
>>>>
>>>> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
>>> suggestions
>>>> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal.
>>> Even
>>>> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
>>>> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
>>> forward.
>>>> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
>>> mentioned
>>>> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
>>> code
>>>> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with
>>> his
>>>> thoughts:
>>>>
>>>> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two questions
>>>> specifically:
>>>>
>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities
>>> to
>>>> build cross platform clients?
>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
>>>> persistence stores?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@gmail.com>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
>>> about:
>>>>>>    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>>> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
>>>> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F40microsoft.com&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C808042edd5b14a5b10a208d40a6fcb8d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636144922670097660&sdata=aH0DfDou5tcRxg8m%2BEpjqwH7GGeO09RqYt%2B%2Fcmpd7Y4%3D&reserved=0>%
>>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
>>>> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>> It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
>>>>>> code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial committers
>>>>>> is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
>>>>>> making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
>>>>>>    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
>>>>>> with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
>>>>>>
>>>>> So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
>>>> suspect
>>>>> its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on the
>>>>> product and it was kept internal.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
>>> products"
>>>>> section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
>>> with
>>>>> other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair of
>>> one
>>>>> of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with
>>> the
>>>>> other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
>>>> their
>>>>> code base.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some other ways to address this section:
>>>>>
>>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>>> communities
>>>> to
>>>>> build cross platform clients?
>>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
>>>>> persistence stores?
>>>>>
>>>>> etc..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Roman.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
>>> brianm@skife.org<ma...@skife.org>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> +1 !
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Cool.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
>>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com<ma...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named
>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>>> RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed,
>>>> easy
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>> message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
>>>> amounts
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> streaming data.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
>>> URL:
>>>>>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
>>> 2F%
>>>> 2Fwiki.apache.org<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F2Fwiki.apache.org&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C808042edd5b14a5b10a208d40a6fcb8d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636144922670097660&sdata=d6PSgYv5qvKEsMSyHA35TvPLuD2kpPBry8QkMNasg%2Bw%3D&reserved=0>%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
>>>> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F40microsoft.com&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C808042edd5b14a5b10a208d40a6fcb8d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636144922670097660&sdata=aH0DfDou5tcRxg8m%2BEpjqwH7GGeO09RqYt%2B%2Fcmpd7Y4%3D&reserved=0>%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>>>> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>>>> Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org<ma...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
>>> org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ---------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org<ma...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org<ma...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> perl -e 'print
>>>> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
>>> );'
>>>> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
>>> icrosoft.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ficrosoft.com&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C808042edd5b14a5b10a208d40a6fcb8d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636144922670097660&sdata=vRv0N91AXM2cLd%2F%2BkfPcZUx5smVyjyczXhlLrJersQs%3D&reserved=0>%
>>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
>>>> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
>>>> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F40microsoft.com&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C808042edd5b14a5b10a208d40a6fcb8d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636144922670097660&sdata=aH0DfDou5tcRxg8m%2BEpjqwH7GGeO09RqYt%2B%2Fcmpd7Y4%3D&reserved=0>
>>> %
>>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
>>>> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
>>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fprotection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fbruceblog.org%252F%26&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C808042edd5b14a5b10a208d40a6fcb8d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636144922670097660&sdata=9Olf42ZpZIw9Btu%2FEftc4wl3UNKHyz5rPVzngPU1e%2BA%3D&reserved=0>
>>>> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F40microsoft.com&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C808042edd5b14a5b10a208d40a6fcb8d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636144922670097660&sdata=aH0DfDou5tcRxg8m%2BEpjqwH7GGeO09RqYt%2B%2Fcmpd7Y4%3D&reserved=0>%7Cd12890186efe4c
>>> 6e60c908d40597
>>>> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>>>> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
>>>> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>>> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
>>>> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F40microsoft.com&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C808042edd5b14a5b10a208d40a6fcb8d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636144922670097660&sdata=aH0DfDou5tcRxg8m%2BEpjqwH7GGeO09RqYt%2B%2Fcmpd7Y4%3D&reserved=0>%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>>>> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>>>>
>>

--
Emmanuel Lecharny

Symas.com
directory.apache.org<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdirectory.apache.org&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C808042edd5b14a5b10a208d40a6fcb8d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636144922670097660&sdata=JBgSuvK0pR2xLnjO%2BM8KnDpPi%2Bnl380S9qodCdw50c4%3D&reserved=0>


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--
Thanks,

Gunnar
If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.

[Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>]

Educate, trust and verify.

IMO, there shouldn't be a rule that you can't write in non-English on dev@
or user@.  You just have to understand the impact of doing so.  Sometimes
it will make sense to do so, other times, not.  You have to know who in
your community knows what languages.  In Seattle, airport signs are in
English and Japanese, in San Diego, they are in English and Spanish.

If you trust that committers and PMC members have been educated on how to
grow a community, they will choose the right words.  You probably have to
educate folks that the ASF Board all know English so decisions need to be
recorded in English.

But for sure, not "everything" has to be on dev@.  Only decisions and some
final discussion leading to those decisions.  Lots of English discussions
happen off-list inside companies with too many committers as employees.
Or at Hackathons, or in chat rooms.  And sometimes folks on dev@ are left
out but they aren't supposed to be.  Whether English or Chinese or
something else was used doesn’t matter.

So far, just about every decision ends up with a lot of English keywords
on commits@.  I don't know of any popular programming languages that don't
use English keywords.  So watching commits@ is one way to verify.  And if
something happened you don't like, you start a discussion and figure out
what language to use to communicate most efficiently.  When I've visited
development centers in India, China and Japan and had development teams
visit me in the US from Romania, I can guarantee they discussed among
themselves in native languages and then summarized for me in English.  No
big deal.  I trust them to include me at some point and they do, in
English, since that's the language we have in common.

Projects coming to the ASF without a desire to draw people who don't speak
a non-English language probably aren't a good fit at the ASF.  Projects
coming to the ASF must understand that they must record decisions and
report progress in English.  Other than that, choose the words that will
bring in the most people.  But you can use more than one language.

My 2 cents,
-Alex

On 11/11/16, 12:47 PM, "Woonsan Ko" <wo...@apache.org> wrote:

>On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Copy/paste into a Translator, which detected the language
>>automatically: In
>> practice, the question of the language to use from a list of diffusion
>>is
>> specious. English it the lingua franca of the 21st century.
>>
>> Du kan göra precis samma sak med ett minoritetsspråk som svenska. Språk
>>är
>> inte längre ett hinder.
>>
>> Take a look at how the Minecraft generation (I'm blessed with one)
>> operates. They have no issues to jump onto servers that use languages
>>they
>> don't understand and then communicate using Translators. It's pretty
>> awesome. Real-time translators are coming. See Skype Translator for an
>> example.
>>
>> So, I'd argue that lingua franca is already becoming a thing of the
>>past as
>> people get more comfortable with the idea of using them in everyday
>>life.
>> Heck, just take a look at how people interact on Facebook these days --
>>the
>> translate function is extremely cool.
>>
>> You can view language as a barrier to community building or you can use
>> technology to remove the barrier.
>>
>> Based on this discussion, I am going to add a new section to the main
>> project page that discusses communication in different languages
>> encouraging people to write questions in the own language if they're not
>> comfortable with English -- I rather have the question than no
>>interaction.
>>
>> I'll tell them that the community uses translator software when needed
>>and
>> that responses is likely to be in English so that they can translate
>>back
>> as needed. A smalll first step but an important one.
>
>I guess you mean that in the user@ lists. That should be fine in my
>understanding from the discussions here and there.
>But as Shane and others pointed out, dev@ lists should be using
>English or Globish-like for good reasons. I would encourage committers
>to do so.
>
>Just my two cents,
>
>Woonsan
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Gunnar
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny
>><el...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> En pratique, la question de la langue à utiliser sur une liste de
>>> diffusion est spécieuse. L'anglais est la Lingua Franca du 21ème
>>>siècle.
>>>
>>>
>>> And if you haven't understood what I wrote in my native language, which
>>> is understood by around 500 million people around the globe, I guess
>>>you
>>> get my implicit point ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> More seriously, it's not about how good are developpers in english :
>>> many of the Apache developpers are not english native speakers, and we
>>> do many mistakes. That does not matter too much : nobody will blame
>>> anyone for that. At some point, code is not in english, but in C, Java,
>>> Scala, etc... If you work as an IT person, you already have to face
>>> english in almost all the technical documents found on internet. Take
>>> the RFCs for instance : have thay all been translated to chinese ?
>>>
>>>
>>> But the most important thing : we are all about community. It's pretty
>>> hard to build it if you split it in 2, or more, because there is a
>>> language issue. It's going to be hard to communicate between a split
>>> community, way harder than using a very basic english...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 11/11/16 à 07:45, Reynold Xin a écrit :
>>> > Adding members@
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org>
>>>wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>>> >> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
>>> >> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be
>>>in
>>> >> English?
>>> >>
>>> >> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
>>> English
>>> >> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
>>> >> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
>>>when
>>> it
>>> >> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
>>>much
>>> lower
>>> >> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
>>> English
>>> >> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>>> >>
>>> >> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
>>> exclude
>>> >> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
>>> native
>>> >> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
>>> according
>>> >> to Wikipedia.
>>> >>
>>> >> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
>>> >> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lu...@apache.org>
>>>wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Hi Gunnar,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe
>>>not
>>> >>> real,
>>> >>> but just
>>> >>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions
>>>from
>>> >>> China,
>>> >>> or any other territories from all of the world.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese
>>>and
>>> LABEL
>>> >>> for such
>>> >>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
>>> "issue" to
>>> >>> describe like
>>> >>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
>>> >>> others...
>>> >>> that's not right way.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
>>> >>> contributing to
>>> >>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
>>> >>> involved
>>> >>> in many
>>> >>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
>>> >>> mailing
>>> >>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
>>> >>> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
>>> >>> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
>>> >>> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
>>> >>> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
>>> >>> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
>>> >>> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
>>> >>>
>>> >>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects,
>>>you
>>> >>> could check
>>> >>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
>>>list.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a
>>>way to
>>> >>> access
>>> >>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
>>> speakers,
>>> >>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
>>> Way.
>>> >>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
>>> >>> community, and try
>>> >>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
>>> patience
>>> >>> for
>>> >>> those new comers.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
>>> journey,
>>> >>> our experience
>>> >>>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
>>> >>> challenges...through
>>> >>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
>>> many
>>> >>> potential projects
>>> >>> who are interesting to join Apache family.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
>>> >>> Trafodion
>>> >>> community"
>>> >>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
>>>Trafodion
>>> >>> PMC
>>> >>> know
>>> >>> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
>>>articles,
>>> >>> session recordings and
>>> >>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
>>> >>> discussion
>>> >>> if necessary:-)
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
>>> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Hi,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
>>> from
>>> >>>> China.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't
>>>that
>>> >>> active
>>> >>>> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating
>>>in
>>> >>>> Chinese.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard
>>>not
>>> to
>>> >>>> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
>>>questions
>>> etc
>>> >>>> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
>>>forward,
>>> >>>> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that
>>>members in
>>> >>> China
>>> >>>> can help advise on what can be done to address communication
>>>issues
>>> like
>>> >>>> this.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Thanks,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Gunnar
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler"
>>><Ro...@microsoft.com>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple
>>>of
>>> >>> years
>>> >>>> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open
>>>source
>>> >>> beyond
>>> >>>> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding
>>>trip
>>> to
>>> >>>> China.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked
>>>to.
>>> We
>>> >>>> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
>>>involved
>>> >>> with
>>> >>>> this proposal.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this
>>>project and
>>> >>>> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We
>>>will
>>> >>> need
>>> >>>> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China
>>>born
>>> >>>> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we
>>>need
>>> >>> to
>>> >>>> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
>>>foundation
>>> >>> and as
>>> >>>> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met
>>> some
>>> >>> of
>>> >>>> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
>>> >>> project
>>> >>>> can succeed.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Ross
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ---
>>> >>>> Twitter: @rgardler
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ________________________________
>>> >>>> From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
>>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
>>> >>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Hi John,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
>>> constructive
>>> >>>> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and
>>>project
>>> >>> using
>>> >>>> your suggestions.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
>>> Gosling,
>>> >>>> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the
>>>Github
>>> >>>> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
>>> history
>>> >>>> was
>>> >>>> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's
>>>git-fu
>>> >>> went
>>> >>>> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von
>>>also
>>> >>> gives
>>> >>>> further explanation of the project history in a response below.
>>> Indeed,
>>> >>>> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before
>>>with
>>> >>> git),
>>> >>>> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to
>>>improve
>>> >>> and
>>> >>>> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
>>> >>> Bruce is
>>> >>>> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF
>>>exist
>>> >>>> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
>>> mentors,
>>> >>>> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
>>>interest
>>> in
>>> >>>> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
>>> >>> continuing
>>> >>>> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
>>> >>> experience
>>> >>>> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project
>>>over
>>> >>>> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
>>> >>>> constructively with others on open source and to foster a
>>>community of
>>> >>>> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The
>>>ASF is
>>> an
>>> >>>> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
>>> >>>> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and
>>>stay
>>> for
>>> >>>> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new
>>>project
>>> and
>>> >>>> people to the ASF.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
>>> >>> suggestions
>>> >>>> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
>>>proposal.
>>> >>> Even
>>> >>>> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be
>>>great
>>> >>>> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
>>> >>> forward.
>>> >>>> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
>>> >>> mentioned
>>> >>>> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
>>>RocketMQ
>>> >>> code
>>> >>>> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John
>>>with
>>> >>> his
>>> >>>> thoughts:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
>>> questions
>>> >>>> specifically:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>>> communities
>>> >>> to
>>> >>>> build cross platform clients?
>>> >>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
>>>backend
>>> >>>> persistence stores?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Bruce
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament
>>><john.d.ament@gmail.com
>>> >
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
>>> roman@shaposhnik.org
>>> >>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
>>> >>> about:
>>> >>>>>>    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>> >>>> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
>>> >>>> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
>>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
>>> >>>> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
>>> >>>>>> It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
>>> >>>>>> code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
>>>committers
>>> >>>>>> is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of
>>>time
>>> >>>>>> making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
>>>prevails.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
>>> >>>>>>    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
>>> >>>>>> with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>> So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.
>>>I
>>> >>>> suspect
>>> >>>>> its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development
>>>on the
>>> >>>>> product and it was kept internal.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
>>> >>> products"
>>> >>>>> section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
>>>competes
>>> >>> with
>>> >>>>> other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the
>>>chair of
>>> >>> one
>>> >>>>> of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies
>>>with
>>> >>> the
>>> >>>>> other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects
>>>today in
>>> >>>> their
>>> >>>>> code base.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Some other ways to address this section:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>>> >>> communities
>>> >>>> to
>>> >>>>> build cross platform clients?
>>> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
>>> backend
>>> >>>>> persistence stores?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> etc..
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Thanks,
>>> >>>>>> Roman.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
>>> >>> brianm@skife.org>
>>> >>>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>> +1 !
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>> Cool.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> +1
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
>>> >>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
>>> >>>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>> Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling
>>>named
>>> >>>>> Apache
>>> >>>>>>>>> RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
>>>distributed,
>>> >>>> easy
>>> >>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>>> use
>>> >>>>>>>>> message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
>>> >>>> amounts
>>> >>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>>>>> streaming data.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
>>> >>> URL:
>>> >>>>>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
>>> >>> 2F%
>>> >>>> 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
>>> >>>> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
>>> dcff%
>>> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>>> >>>> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
>>> >>>>>>>>> Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Bruce
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>>> ---------
>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>general-help@incubator.apache.
>>> >>> org
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>> ---------
>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>>> perl -e 'print
>>> >>>> 
>>>unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
>>> >>> );'
>>> >>>> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.
>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
>>> >>> icrosoft.com%
>>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
>>> >>>> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
>>> >>>> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40
>>> microsoft.com
>>> >>> %
>>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
>>> >>>> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
>>> >>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
>>> >>>> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
>>> >>> 6e60c908d40597
>>> >>>> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>>> >>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>>> >>>> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
>>> >>>> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
>>> >>>> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>>> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>>> >>>> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>>> >>>>
>>> >>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Emmanuel Lecharny
>>>
>>> Symas.com
>>> directory.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Gunnar
>> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>


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Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.

[Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>]

Hi Woonsan,

Yes, for the user@ list. At least up to a point where inline translation is
working well and common. :)

Thanks,

Gunnar

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Woonsan Ko <wo...@apache.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Copy/paste into a Translator, which detected the language automatically:
> In
> > practice, the question of the language to use from a list of diffusion is
> > specious. English it the lingua franca of the 21st century.
> >
> > Du kan göra precis samma sak med ett minoritetsspråk som svenska. Språk
> är
> > inte längre ett hinder.
> >
> > Take a look at how the Minecraft generation (I'm blessed with one)
> > operates. They have no issues to jump onto servers that use languages
> they
> > don't understand and then communicate using Translators. It's pretty
> > awesome. Real-time translators are coming. See Skype Translator for an
> > example.
> >
> > So, I'd argue that lingua franca is already becoming a thing of the past
> as
> > people get more comfortable with the idea of using them in everyday life.
> > Heck, just take a look at how people interact on Facebook these days --
> the
> > translate function is extremely cool.
> >
> > You can view language as a barrier to community building or you can use
> > technology to remove the barrier.
> >
> > Based on this discussion, I am going to add a new section to the main
> > project page that discusses communication in different languages
> > encouraging people to write questions in the own language if they're not
> > comfortable with English -- I rather have the question than no
> interaction.
> >
> > I'll tell them that the community uses translator software when needed
> and
> > that responses is likely to be in English so that they can translate back
> > as needed. A smalll first step but an important one.
>
> I guess you mean that in the user@ lists. That should be fine in my
> understanding from the discussions here and there.
> But as Shane and others pointed out, dev@ lists should be using
> English or Globish-like for good reasons. I would encourage committers
> to do so.
>
> Just my two cents,
>
> Woonsan
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <elecharny@gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> En pratique, la question de la langue à utiliser sur une liste de
> >> diffusion est spécieuse. L'anglais est la Lingua Franca du 21ème siècle.
> >>
> >>
> >> And if you haven't understood what I wrote in my native language, which
> >> is understood by around 500 million people around the globe, I guess you
> >> get my implicit point ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >> More seriously, it's not about how good are developpers in english :
> >> many of the Apache developpers are not english native speakers, and we
> >> do many mistakes. That does not matter too much : nobody will blame
> >> anyone for that. At some point, code is not in english, but in C, Java,
> >> Scala, etc... If you work as an IT person, you already have to face
> >> english in almost all the technical documents found on internet. Take
> >> the RFCs for instance : have thay all been translated to chinese ?
> >>
> >>
> >> But the most important thing : we are all about community. It's pretty
> >> hard to build it if you split it in 2, or more, because there is a
> >> language issue. It's going to be hard to communicate between a split
> >> community, way harder than using a very basic english...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Le 11/11/16 à 07:45, Reynold Xin a écrit :
> >> > Adding members@
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> >> >> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> >> >> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> >> >> English?
> >> >>
> >> >> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> >> English
> >> >> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> >> >> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
> when
> >> it
> >> >> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
> >> lower
> >> >> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> >> English
> >> >> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> >> >>
> >> >> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> >> exclude
> >> >> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
> >> native
> >> >> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> >> according
> >> >> to Wikipedia.
> >> >>
> >> >> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> >> >> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lu...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Hi Gunnar,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe
> not
> >> >>> real,
> >> >>> but just
> >> >>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions
> from
> >> >>> China,
> >> >>> or any other territories from all of the world.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
> >> LABEL
> >> >>> for such
> >> >>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
> >> "issue" to
> >> >>> describe like
> >> >>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
> >> >>> others...
> >> >>> that's not right way.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> >> >>> contributing to
> >> >>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
> >> >>> involved
> >> >>> in many
> >> >>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
> >> >>> mailing
> >> >>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> >> >>> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> >> >>> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> >> >>> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> >> >>> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> >> >>> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> >> >>> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> >> >>>
> >> >>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects,
> you
> >> >>> could check
> >> >>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
> list.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a
> way to
> >> >>> access
> >> >>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
> >> speakers,
> >> >>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
> >> Way.
> >> >>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> >> >>> community, and try
> >> >>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> >> patience
> >> >>> for
> >> >>> those new comers.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> >> journey,
> >> >>> our experience
> >> >>>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> >> >>> challenges...through
> >> >>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
> >> many
> >> >>> potential projects
> >> >>> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> >> >>> Trafodion
> >> >>> community"
> >> >>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
> Trafodion
> >> >>> PMC
> >> >>> know
> >> >>> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
> articles,
> >> >>> session recordings and
> >> >>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> >> >>> discussion
> >> >>> if necessary:-)
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> >> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
> >> >>> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
> >> from
> >> >>>> China.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
> >> >>> active
> >> >>>> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
> >> >>>> Chinese.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard
> not
> >> to
> >> >>>> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
> questions
> >> etc
> >> >>>> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
> forward,
> >> >>>> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members
> in
> >> >>> China
> >> >>>> can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues
> >> like
> >> >>>> this.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Gunnar
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
> >> >>> years
> >> >>>> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open
> source
> >> >>> beyond
> >> >>>> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding
> trip
> >> to
> >> >>>> China.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked
> to.
> >> We
> >> >>>> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
> involved
> >> >>> with
> >> >>>> this proposal.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project
> and
> >> >>>> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We
> will
> >> >>> need
> >> >>>> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China
> born
> >> >>>> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we
> need
> >> >>> to
> >> >>>> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
> foundation
> >> >>> and as
> >> >>>> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met
> >> some
> >> >>> of
> >> >>>> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
> >> >>> project
> >> >>>> can succeed.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Ross
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> ---
> >> >>>> Twitter: @rgardler
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> ________________________________
> >> >>>> From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> >> >>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Hi John,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> >> constructive
> >> >>>> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and
> project
> >> >>> using
> >> >>>> your suggestions.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
> >> Gosling,
> >> >>>> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the
> Github
> >> >>>> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
> >> history
> >> >>>> was
> >> >>>> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's
> git-fu
> >> >>> went
> >> >>>> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von
> also
> >> >>> gives
> >> >>>> further explanation of the project history in a response below.
> >> Indeed,
> >> >>>> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before
> with
> >> >>> git),
> >> >>>> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to
> improve
> >> >>> and
> >> >>>> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
> >> >>> Bruce is
> >> >>>> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF
> exist
> >> >>>> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
> >> mentors,
> >> >>>> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
> interest
> >> in
> >> >>>> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
> >> >>> continuing
> >> >>>> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
> >> >>> experience
> >> >>>> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project
> over
> >> >>>> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> >> >>>> constructively with others on open source and to foster a
> community of
> >> >>>> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF
> is
> >> an
> >> >>>> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
> >> >>>> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and
> stay
> >> for
> >> >>>> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project
> >> and
> >> >>>> people to the ASF.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> >> >>> suggestions
> >> >>>> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
> proposal.
> >> >>> Even
> >> >>>> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be
> great
> >> >>>> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
> >> >>> forward.
> >> >>>> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
> >> >>> mentioned
> >> >>>> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
> RocketMQ
> >> >>> code
> >> >>>> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John
> with
> >> >>> his
> >> >>>> thoughts:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
> >> questions
> >> >>>> specifically:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> >> communities
> >> >>> to
> >> >>>> build cross platform clients?
> >> >>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> backend
> >> >>>> persistence stores?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Bruce
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
> john.d.ament@gmail.com
> >> >
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> >> roman@shaposhnik.org
> >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
> >> >>> about:
> >> >>>>>>    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> >>>> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> >> >>>> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> >> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> >> >>>> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> >> >>>>>> It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
> >> >>>>>> code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
> committers
> >> >>>>>> is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
> >> >>>>>> making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> >> >>>>>>    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> >> >>>>>> with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
> >> >>>> suspect
> >> >>>>> its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on
> the
> >> >>>>> product and it was kept internal.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
> >> >>> products"
> >> >>>>> section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
> competes
> >> >>> with
> >> >>>>> other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the
> chair of
> >> >>> one
> >> >>>>> of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies
> with
> >> >>> the
> >> >>>>> other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today
> in
> >> >>>> their
> >> >>>>> code base.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Some other ways to address this section:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> >> >>> communities
> >> >>>> to
> >> >>>>> build cross platform clients?
> >> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> >> backend
> >> >>>>> persistence stores?
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> etc..
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>>>> Roman.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> >> >>> brianm@skife.org>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> +1 !
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>> Cool.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> +1
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> >> >>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>> Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named
> >> >>>>> Apache
> >> >>>>>>>>> RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> distributed,
> >> >>>> easy
> >> >>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>>> use
> >> >>>>>>>>> message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
> >> >>>> amounts
> >> >>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>>>>> streaming data.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
> >> >>> URL:
> >> >>>>>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
> >> >>> 2F%
> >> >>>> 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> >> >>>> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
> >> dcff%
> >> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> >> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> >>>> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> >> >>>>>>>>> Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Bruce
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>>> ---------
> >> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> apache.org
> >> >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> >> >>> org
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>> ---------
> >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> org
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> --
> >> >>>> perl -e 'print
> >> >>>> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
> "YC;VT*"
> >> >>> );'
> >> >>>> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.
> >> protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> >> >>> icrosoft.com%
> >> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> >> >>>> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> >> >>>> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40
> >> microsoft.com
> >> >>> %
> >> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> >> >>>> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
> >> >>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> >> >>>> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
> >> >>> 6e60c908d40597
> >> >>>> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> >> >>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> >>>> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> >> >>>> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> >> >>>> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> >> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> >> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> >>>> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> >> >>>>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Emmanuel Lecharny
> >>
> >> Symas.com
> >> directory.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.

[Woonsan Ko <wo...@apache.org>]

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Copy/paste into a Translator, which detected the language automatically: In
> practice, the question of the language to use from a list of diffusion is
> specious. English it the lingua franca of the 21st century.
>
> Du kan göra precis samma sak med ett minoritetsspråk som svenska. Språk är
> inte längre ett hinder.
>
> Take a look at how the Minecraft generation (I'm blessed with one)
> operates. They have no issues to jump onto servers that use languages they
> don't understand and then communicate using Translators. It's pretty
> awesome. Real-time translators are coming. See Skype Translator for an
> example.
>
> So, I'd argue that lingua franca is already becoming a thing of the past as
> people get more comfortable with the idea of using them in everyday life.
> Heck, just take a look at how people interact on Facebook these days -- the
> translate function is extremely cool.
>
> You can view language as a barrier to community building or you can use
> technology to remove the barrier.
>
> Based on this discussion, I am going to add a new section to the main
> project page that discusses communication in different languages
> encouraging people to write questions in the own language if they're not
> comfortable with English -- I rather have the question than no interaction.
>
> I'll tell them that the community uses translator software when needed and
> that responses is likely to be in English so that they can translate back
> as needed. A smalll first step but an important one.

I guess you mean that in the user@ lists. That should be fine in my
understanding from the discussions here and there.
But as Shane and others pointed out, dev@ lists should be using
English or Globish-like for good reasons. I would encourage committers
to do so.

Just my two cents,

Woonsan

>
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> En pratique, la question de la langue à utiliser sur une liste de
>> diffusion est spécieuse. L'anglais est la Lingua Franca du 21ème siècle.
>>
>>
>> And if you haven't understood what I wrote in my native language, which
>> is understood by around 500 million people around the globe, I guess you
>> get my implicit point ;-)
>>
>>
>> More seriously, it's not about how good are developpers in english :
>> many of the Apache developpers are not english native speakers, and we
>> do many mistakes. That does not matter too much : nobody will blame
>> anyone for that. At some point, code is not in english, but in C, Java,
>> Scala, etc... If you work as an IT person, you already have to face
>> english in almost all the technical documents found on internet. Take
>> the RFCs for instance : have thay all been translated to chinese ?
>>
>>
>> But the most important thing : we are all about community. It's pretty
>> hard to build it if you split it in 2, or more, because there is a
>> language issue. It's going to be hard to communicate between a split
>> community, way harder than using a very basic english...
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 11/11/16 à 07:45, Reynold Xin a écrit :
>> > Adding members@
>> >
>> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>> >> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
>> >> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
>> >> English?
>> >>
>> >> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
>> English
>> >> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
>> >> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when
>> it
>> >> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
>> lower
>> >> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
>> English
>> >> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>> >>
>> >> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
>> exclude
>> >> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
>> native
>> >> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
>> according
>> >> to Wikipedia.
>> >>
>> >> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
>> >> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lu...@apache.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi Gunnar,
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
>> >>> real,
>> >>> but just
>> >>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
>> >>> China,
>> >>> or any other territories from all of the world.
>> >>>
>> >>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
>> LABEL
>> >>> for such
>> >>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
>> "issue" to
>> >>> describe like
>> >>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
>> >>> others...
>> >>> that's not right way.
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
>> >>> contributing to
>> >>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
>> >>> involved
>> >>> in many
>> >>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
>> >>>
>> >>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
>> >>> mailing
>> >>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
>> >>>
>> >>> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
>> >>> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
>> >>> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
>> >>> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
>> >>> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
>> >>> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
>> >>> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
>> >>>
>> >>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
>> >>> could check
>> >>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
>> >>>
>> >>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
>> >>> access
>> >>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
>> speakers,
>> >>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
>> Way.
>> >>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
>> >>> community, and try
>> >>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
>> patience
>> >>> for
>> >>> those new comers.
>> >>>
>> >>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
>> journey,
>> >>> our experience
>> >>>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
>> >>> challenges...through
>> >>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
>> many
>> >>> potential projects
>> >>> who are interesting to join Apache family.
>> >>>
>> >>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
>> >>> Trafodion
>> >>> community"
>> >>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion
>> >>> PMC
>> >>> know
>> >>> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
>> >>> session recordings and
>> >>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
>> >>> discussion
>> >>> if necessary:-)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
>> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Hi,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
>> from
>> >>>> China.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
>> >>> active
>> >>>> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
>> >>>> Chinese.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not
>> to
>> >>>> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions
>> etc
>> >>>> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
>> >>>> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
>> >>> China
>> >>>> can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues
>> like
>> >>>> this.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Gunnar
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
>> >>> years
>> >>>> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
>> >>> beyond
>> >>>> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip
>> to
>> >>>> China.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to.
>> We
>> >>>> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
>> >>> with
>> >>>> this proposal.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
>> >>>> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will
>> >>> need
>> >>>> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
>> >>>> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need
>> >>> to
>> >>>> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
>> >>> and as
>> >>>> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met
>> some
>> >>> of
>> >>>> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
>> >>> project
>> >>>> can succeed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ross
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ---
>> >>>> Twitter: @rgardler
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ________________________________
>> >>>> From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
>> >>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi John,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
>> constructive
>> >>>> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
>> >>> using
>> >>>> your suggestions.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
>> Gosling,
>> >>>> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
>> >>>> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
>> history
>> >>>> was
>> >>>> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
>> >>> went
>> >>>> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
>> >>> gives
>> >>>> further explanation of the project history in a response below.
>> Indeed,
>> >>>> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
>> >>> git),
>> >>>> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve
>> >>> and
>> >>>> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
>> >>> Bruce is
>> >>>> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
>> >>>> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
>> mentors,
>> >>>> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest
>> in
>> >>>> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
>> >>> continuing
>> >>>> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
>> >>> experience
>> >>>> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
>> >>>> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
>> >>>> constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
>> >>>> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is
>> an
>> >>>> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
>> >>>> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay
>> for
>> >>>> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project
>> and
>> >>>> people to the ASF.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
>> >>> suggestions
>> >>>> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal.
>> >>> Even
>> >>>> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
>> >>>> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
>> >>> forward.
>> >>>> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
>> >>> mentioned
>> >>>> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
>> >>> code
>> >>>> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with
>> >>> his
>> >>>> thoughts:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
>> questions
>> >>>> specifically:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>> communities
>> >>> to
>> >>>> build cross platform clients?
>> >>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
>> >>>> persistence stores?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Bruce
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament@gmail.com
>> >
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
>> roman@shaposhnik.org
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
>> >>> about:
>> >>>>>>    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> >>>> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
>> >>>> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
>> >>>> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
>> >>>>>> It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
>> >>>>>> code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial committers
>> >>>>>> is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
>> >>>>>> making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
>> >>>>>>    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
>> >>>>>> with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
>> >>>> suspect
>> >>>>> its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on the
>> >>>>> product and it was kept internal.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
>> >>> products"
>> >>>>> section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
>> >>> with
>> >>>>> other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair of
>> >>> one
>> >>>>> of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with
>> >>> the
>> >>>>> other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
>> >>>> their
>> >>>>> code base.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Some other ways to address this section:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>> >>> communities
>> >>>> to
>> >>>>> build cross platform clients?
>> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
>> backend
>> >>>>> persistence stores?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> etc..
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>> Roman.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
>> >>> brianm@skife.org>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> +1 !
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> Cool.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> +1
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
>> >>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named
>> >>>>> Apache
>> >>>>>>>>> RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed,
>> >>>> easy
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>> use
>> >>>>>>>>> message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
>> >>>> amounts
>> >>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>> streaming data.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
>> >>> URL:
>> >>>>>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
>> >>> 2F%
>> >>>> 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
>> >>>> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
>> dcff%
>> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> >>>> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
>> >>>>>>>>> Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Bruce
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> ---------
>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
>> >>> org
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> ---------
>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> perl -e 'print
>> >>>> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
>> >>> );'
>> >>>> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.
>> protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
>> >>> icrosoft.com%
>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
>> >>>> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
>> >>>> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40
>> microsoft.com
>> >>> %
>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
>> >>>> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
>> >>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
>> >>>> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
>> >>> 6e60c908d40597
>> >>>> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>> >>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> >>>> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
>> >>>> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
>> >>>> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> >>>> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>> >>>>
>> >>
>>
>> --
>> Emmanuel Lecharny
>>
>> Symas.com
>> directory.apache.org
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.

[Willem Jiang <wi...@gmail.com>]

Yeah, we could remove the barrier by using the technology,  instead of
build another barrier for the communication.

Most Chinese user barely use email for customer service, they just prefer
to interaction directly with the people. But email could be more effective
way, if we want to exchange ideas with the people who doesn't live in
different time zone or we want the discussion be searched by public. I
could be great if we let them know about it.



Willem Jiang

Blog: http://willemjiang.blogspot.com (English)
          http://jnn.iteye.com  (Chinese)
Twitter: willemjiang
Weibo: 姜宁willem

On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Copy/paste into a Translator, which detected the language automatically:
> In practice, the question of the language to use from a list of diffusion
> is specious. English it the lingua franca of the 21st century.
>
> Du kan göra precis samma sak med ett minoritetsspråk som svenska. Språk är
> inte längre ett hinder.
>
> Take a look at how the Minecraft generation (I'm blessed with one)
> operates. They have no issues to jump onto servers that use languages they
> don't understand and then communicate using Translators. It's pretty
> awesome. Real-time translators are coming. See Skype Translator for an
> example.
>
> So, I'd argue that lingua franca is already becoming a thing of the past
> as people get more comfortable with the idea of using them in everyday
> life. Heck, just take a look at how people interact on Facebook these days
> -- the translate function is extremely cool.
>
> You can view language as a barrier to community building or you can use
> technology to remove the barrier.
>
> Based on this discussion, I am going to add a new section to the main
> project page that discusses communication in different languages
> encouraging people to write questions in the own language if they're not
> comfortable with English -- I rather have the question than no interaction.
>
> I'll tell them that the community uses translator software when needed and
> that responses is likely to be in English so that they can translate back
> as needed. A smalll first step but an important one.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> En pratique, la question de la langue à utiliser sur une liste de
>> diffusion est spécieuse. L'anglais est la Lingua Franca du 21ème siècle.
>>
>>
>> And if you haven't understood what I wrote in my native language, which
>> is understood by around 500 million people around the globe, I guess you
>> get my implicit point ;-)
>>
>>
>> More seriously, it's not about how good are developpers in english :
>> many of the Apache developpers are not english native speakers, and we
>> do many mistakes. That does not matter too much : nobody will blame
>> anyone for that. At some point, code is not in english, but in C, Java,
>> Scala, etc... If you work as an IT person, you already have to face
>> english in almost all the technical documents found on internet. Take
>> the RFCs for instance : have thay all been translated to chinese ?
>>
>>
>> But the most important thing : we are all about community. It's pretty
>> hard to build it if you split it in 2, or more, because there is a
>> language issue. It's going to be hard to communicate between a split
>> community, way harder than using a very basic english...
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 11/11/16 à 07:45, Reynold Xin a écrit :
>> > Adding members@
>> >
>> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>> >> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
>> >> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
>> >> English?
>> >>
>> >> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
>> English
>> >> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
>> >> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
>> when it
>> >> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
>> lower
>> >> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
>> English
>> >> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>> >>
>> >> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
>> exclude
>> >> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
>> native
>> >> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
>> according
>> >> to Wikipedia.
>> >>
>> >> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
>> >> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lu...@apache.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi Gunnar,
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
>> >>> real,
>> >>> but just
>> >>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions
>> from
>> >>> China,
>> >>> or any other territories from all of the world.
>> >>>
>> >>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
>> LABEL
>> >>> for such
>> >>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
>> "issue" to
>> >>> describe like
>> >>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
>> >>> others...
>> >>> that's not right way.
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
>> >>> contributing to
>> >>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
>> >>> involved
>> >>> in many
>> >>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
>> >>>
>> >>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
>> >>> mailing
>> >>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
>> >>>
>> >>> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
>> >>> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
>> >>> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
>> >>> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
>> >>> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
>> >>> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
>> >>> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
>> >>>
>> >>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
>> >>> could check
>> >>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
>> list.
>> >>>
>> >>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way
>> to
>> >>> access
>> >>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
>> speakers,
>> >>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
>> Way.
>> >>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
>> >>> community, and try
>> >>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
>> patience
>> >>> for
>> >>> those new comers.
>> >>>
>> >>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
>> journey,
>> >>> our experience
>> >>>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
>> >>> challenges...through
>> >>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
>> many
>> >>> potential projects
>> >>> who are interesting to join Apache family.
>> >>>
>> >>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
>> >>> Trafodion
>> >>> community"
>> >>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
>> Trafodion
>> >>> PMC
>> >>> know
>> >>> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
>> >>> session recordings and
>> >>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
>> >>> discussion
>> >>> if necessary:-)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
>> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Hi,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
>> from
>> >>>> China.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
>> >>> active
>> >>>> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
>> >>>> Chinese.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard
>> not to
>> >>>> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions
>> etc
>> >>>> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
>> >>>> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
>> >>> China
>> >>>> can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues
>> like
>> >>>> this.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Gunnar
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
>> >>> years
>> >>>> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
>> >>> beyond
>> >>>> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip
>> to
>> >>>> China.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to.
>> We
>> >>>> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
>> >>> with
>> >>>> this proposal.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project
>> and
>> >>>> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We
>> will
>> >>> need
>> >>>> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China
>> born
>> >>>> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we
>> need
>> >>> to
>> >>>> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
>> >>> and as
>> >>>> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met
>> some
>> >>> of
>> >>>> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
>> >>> project
>> >>>> can succeed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ross
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ---
>> >>>> Twitter: @rgardler
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ________________________________
>> >>>> From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
>> >>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi John,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
>> constructive
>> >>>> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
>> >>> using
>> >>>> your suggestions.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
>> Gosling,
>> >>>> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
>> >>>> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
>> history
>> >>>> was
>> >>>> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
>> >>> went
>> >>>> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
>> >>> gives
>> >>>> further explanation of the project history in a response below.
>> Indeed,
>> >>>> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
>> >>> git),
>> >>>> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve
>> >>> and
>> >>>> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
>> >>> Bruce is
>> >>>> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
>> >>>> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
>> mentors,
>> >>>> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest
>> in
>> >>>> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
>> >>> continuing
>> >>>> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
>> >>> experience
>> >>>> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
>> >>>> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
>> >>>> constructively with others on open source and to foster a community
>> of
>> >>>> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF
>> is an
>> >>>> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
>> >>>> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay
>> for
>> >>>> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project
>> and
>> >>>> people to the ASF.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
>> >>> suggestions
>> >>>> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
>> proposal.
>> >>> Even
>> >>>> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be
>> great
>> >>>> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
>> >>> forward.
>> >>>> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
>> >>> mentioned
>> >>>> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
>> >>> code
>> >>>> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with
>> >>> his
>> >>>> thoughts:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
>> questions
>> >>>> specifically:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>> communities
>> >>> to
>> >>>> build cross platform clients?
>> >>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
>> backend
>> >>>> persistence stores?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Bruce
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
>> john.d.ament@gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
>> roman@shaposhnik.org
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
>> >>> about:
>> >>>>>>    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> >>>> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
>> >>>> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
>> >>>> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
>> >>>>>> It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
>> >>>>>> code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
>> committers
>> >>>>>> is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
>> >>>>>> making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
>> >>>>>>    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
>> >>>>>> with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
>> >>>> suspect
>> >>>>> its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on
>> the
>> >>>>> product and it was kept internal.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
>> >>> products"
>> >>>>> section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
>> >>> with
>> >>>>> other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair
>> of
>> >>> one
>> >>>>> of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with
>> >>> the
>> >>>>> other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
>> >>>> their
>> >>>>> code base.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Some other ways to address this section:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>> >>> communities
>> >>>> to
>> >>>>> build cross platform clients?
>> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
>> backend
>> >>>>> persistence stores?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> etc..
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>> Roman.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
>> >>> brianm@skife.org>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> +1 !
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> Cool.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> +1
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
>> >>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named
>> >>>>> Apache
>> >>>>>>>>> RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed,
>> >>>> easy
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>> use
>> >>>>>>>>> message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
>> >>>> amounts
>> >>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>> streaming data.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
>> >>> URL:
>> >>>>>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
>> >>> 2F%
>> >>>> 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
>> >>>> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908
>> d40597dcff%
>> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
>> 036&sdata=
>> >>>> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
>> >>>>>>>>> Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Bruce
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>> ---------
>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
>> >>> org
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> ---------
>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> perl -e 'print
>> >>>> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
>> >>> );'
>> >>>> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect
>> ion.outlook.com/?url=
>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
>> >>> icrosoft.com%
>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
>> >>>> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
>> >>>> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40mi
>> crosoft.com
>> >>> %
>> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
>> >>>> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
>> >>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
>> >>>> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
>> >>> 6e60c908d40597
>> >>>> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>> >>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> >>>> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
>> >>>> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
>> >>>> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
>> 036&sdata=
>> >>>> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>> >>>>
>> >>
>>
>> --
>> Emmanuel Lecharny
>>
>> Symas.com
>> directory.apache.org
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.

[Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

Copy/paste into a Translator, which detected the language automatically: In
practice, the question of the language to use from a list of diffusion is
specious. English it the lingua franca of the 21st century.

Du kan göra precis samma sak med ett minoritetsspråk som svenska. Språk är
inte längre ett hinder.

Take a look at how the Minecraft generation (I'm blessed with one)
operates. They have no issues to jump onto servers that use languages they
don't understand and then communicate using Translators. It's pretty
awesome. Real-time translators are coming. See Skype Translator for an
example.

So, I'd argue that lingua franca is already becoming a thing of the past as
people get more comfortable with the idea of using them in everyday life.
Heck, just take a look at how people interact on Facebook these days -- the
translate function is extremely cool.

You can view language as a barrier to community building or you can use
technology to remove the barrier.

Based on this discussion, I am going to add a new section to the main
project page that discusses communication in different languages
encouraging people to write questions in the own language if they're not
comfortable with English -- I rather have the question than no interaction.

I'll tell them that the community uses translator software when needed and
that responses is likely to be in English so that they can translate back
as needed. A smalll first step but an important one.

Thanks,

Gunnar



On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> En pratique, la question de la langue à utiliser sur une liste de
> diffusion est spécieuse. L'anglais est la Lingua Franca du 21ème siècle.
>
>
> And if you haven't understood what I wrote in my native language, which
> is understood by around 500 million people around the globe, I guess you
> get my implicit point ;-)
>
>
> More seriously, it's not about how good are developpers in english :
> many of the Apache developpers are not english native speakers, and we
> do many mistakes. That does not matter too much : nobody will blame
> anyone for that. At some point, code is not in english, but in C, Java,
> Scala, etc... If you work as an IT person, you already have to face
> english in almost all the technical documents found on internet. Take
> the RFCs for instance : have thay all been translated to chinese ?
>
>
> But the most important thing : we are all about community. It's pretty
> hard to build it if you split it in 2, or more, because there is a
> language issue. It's going to be hard to communicate between a split
> community, way harder than using a very basic english...
>
>
>
> Le 11/11/16 à 07:45, Reynold Xin a écrit :
> > Adding members@
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> >> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> >> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> >> English?
> >>
> >> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> English
> >> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> >> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when
> it
> >> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
> lower
> >> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> English
> >> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> >>
> >> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> exclude
> >> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
> native
> >> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> according
> >> to Wikipedia.
> >>
> >> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> >> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lu...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Gunnar,
> >>>
> >>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
> >>> real,
> >>> but just
> >>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
> >>> China,
> >>> or any other territories from all of the world.
> >>>
> >>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
> LABEL
> >>> for such
> >>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
> "issue" to
> >>> describe like
> >>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
> >>> others...
> >>> that's not right way.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> >>> contributing to
> >>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
> >>> involved
> >>> in many
> >>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> >>>
> >>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
> >>> mailing
> >>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
> >>>
> >>> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> >>> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> >>> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> >>> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> >>> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> >>> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> >>> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> >>>
> >>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
> >>> could check
> >>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
> >>>
> >>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
> >>> access
> >>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
> speakers,
> >>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
> Way.
> >>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> >>> community, and try
> >>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> patience
> >>> for
> >>> those new comers.
> >>>
> >>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> journey,
> >>> our experience
> >>>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> >>> challenges...through
> >>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
> many
> >>> potential projects
> >>> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> >>>
> >>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> >>> Trafodion
> >>> community"
> >>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion
> >>> PMC
> >>> know
> >>> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
> >>> session recordings and
> >>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> >>> discussion
> >>> if necessary:-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> >>>>
> >>>> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
> from
> >>>> China.
> >>>>
> >>>> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
> >>> active
> >>>> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
> >>>> Chinese.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not
> to
> >>>> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions
> etc
> >>>> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> >>>>
> >>>> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
> >>>> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
> >>> China
> >>>> can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues
> like
> >>>> this.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>> Gunnar
> >>>>
> >>>> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
> >>> years
> >>>> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
> >>> beyond
> >>>> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip
> to
> >>>> China.
> >>>>
> >>>> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to.
> We
> >>>> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
> >>> with
> >>>> this proposal.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
> >>>> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will
> >>> need
> >>>> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
> >>>> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need
> >>> to
> >>>> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
> >>> and as
> >>>> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met
> some
> >>> of
> >>>> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
> >>> project
> >>>> can succeed.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ross
> >>>>
> >>>> ---
> >>>> Twitter: @rgardler
> >>>>
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>> From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> >>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> >>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi John,
> >>>>
> >>>> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> constructive
> >>>> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
> >>> using
> >>>> your suggestions.
> >>>>
> >>>> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
> Gosling,
> >>>> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
> >>>> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
> history
> >>>> was
> >>>> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
> >>> went
> >>>> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
> >>> gives
> >>>> further explanation of the project history in a response below.
> Indeed,
> >>>> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
> >>> git),
> >>>> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve
> >>> and
> >>>> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> >>>>
> >>>> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
> >>> Bruce is
> >>>> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
> >>>> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
> mentors,
> >>>> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest
> in
> >>>> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
> >>> continuing
> >>>> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
> >>> experience
> >>>> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
> >>>> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> >>>> constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
> >>>> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is
> an
> >>>> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
> >>>> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay
> for
> >>>> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project
> and
> >>>> people to the ASF.
> >>>>
> >>>> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> >>> suggestions
> >>>> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal.
> >>> Even
> >>>> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
> >>>> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
> >>> forward.
> >>>> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
> >>> mentioned
> >>>> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
> >>> code
> >>>> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with
> >>> his
> >>>> thoughts:
> >>>>
> >>>> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
> questions
> >>>> specifically:
> >>>>
> >>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> communities
> >>> to
> >>>> build cross platform clients?
> >>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> >>>> persistence stores?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Bruce
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament@gmail.com
> >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> roman@shaposhnik.org
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
> >>> about:
> >>>>>>    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >>>> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> >>>> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> >>>> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> >>>>>> It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
> >>>>>> code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial committers
> >>>>>> is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
> >>>>>> making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> >>>>>>    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> >>>>>> with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
> >>>> suspect
> >>>>> its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on the
> >>>>> product and it was kept internal.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
> >>> products"
> >>>>> section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
> >>> with
> >>>>> other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair of
> >>> one
> >>>>> of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with
> >>> the
> >>>>> other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
> >>>> their
> >>>>> code base.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Some other ways to address this section:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> >>> communities
> >>>> to
> >>>>> build cross platform clients?
> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> backend
> >>>>> persistence stores?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> etc..
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> Roman.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> >>> brianm@skife.org>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> +1 !
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Cool.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> +1
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> >>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named
> >>>>> Apache
> >>>>>>>>> RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed,
> >>>> easy
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> use
> >>>>>>>>> message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
> >>>> amounts
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> streaming data.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
> >>> URL:
> >>>>>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
> >>> 2F%
> >>>> 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> >>>> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
> dcff%
> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >>>> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> >>>>>>>>> Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Bruce
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> ---------
> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> >>> org
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> ---------
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> perl -e 'print
> >>>> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
> >>> );'
> >>>> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.
> protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> >>> icrosoft.com%
> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> >>>> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> >>>> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40
> microsoft.com
> >>> %
> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> >>>> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
> >>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> >>>> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
> >>> 6e60c908d40597
> >>>> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> >>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >>>> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> >>>> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> >>>> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >>>> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> >>>>
> >>
>
> --
> Emmanuel Lecharny
>
> Symas.com
> directory.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.

[Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>]

En pratique, la question de la langue à utiliser sur une liste de
diffusion est spécieuse. L'anglais est la Lingua Franca du 21ème siècle.


And if you haven't understood what I wrote in my native language, which
is understood by around 500 million people around the globe, I guess you
get my implicit point ;-)


More seriously, it's not about how good are developpers in english :
many of the Apache developpers are not english native speakers, and we
do many mistakes. That does not matter too much : nobody will blame
anyone for that. At some point, code is not in english, but in C, Java,
Scala, etc... If you work as an IT person, you already have to face
english in almost all the technical documents found on internet. Take
the RFCs for instance : have thay all been translated to chinese ?


But the most important thing : we are all about community. It's pretty
hard to build it if you split it in 2, or more, because there is a
language issue. It's going to be hard to communicate between a split
community, way harder than using a very basic english...



Le 11/11/16 à 07:45, Reynold Xin a écrit :
> Adding members@
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
>> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
>> English?
>>
>> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as English
>> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
>> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when it
>> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much lower
>> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn English
>> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>>
>> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also exclude
>> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of native
>> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 according
>> to Wikipedia.
>>
>> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
>> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lu...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Gunnar,
>>>
>>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
>>> real,
>>> but just
>>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
>>> China,
>>> or any other territories from all of the world.
>>>
>>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and LABEL
>>> for such
>>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of "issue" to
>>> describe like
>>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
>>> others...
>>> that's not right way.
>>>
>>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
>>> contributing to
>>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
>>> involved
>>> in many
>>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
>>>
>>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
>>> mailing
>>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
>>>
>>> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
>>> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
>>> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
>>> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
>>> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
>>> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
>>> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
>>>
>>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
>>> could check
>>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
>>>
>>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
>>> access
>>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English speakers,
>>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache Way.
>>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
>>> community, and try
>>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the patience
>>> for
>>> those new comers.
>>>
>>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our journey,
>>> our experience
>>>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
>>> challenges...through
>>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping many
>>> potential projects
>>> who are interesting to join Apache family.
>>>
>>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
>>> Trafodion
>>> community"
>>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion
>>> PMC
>>> know
>>> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
>>> session recordings and
>>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
>>> discussion
>>> if necessary:-)
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution from
>>>> China.
>>>>
>>>> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
>>> active
>>>> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
>>>> Chinese.
>>>>
>>>> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not to
>>>> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions etc
>>>> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
>>>> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
>>> China
>>>> can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues like
>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Gunnar
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
>>> years
>>>> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
>>> beyond
>>>> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip to
>>>> China.
>>>>
>>>> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to. We
>>>> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
>>> with
>>>> this proposal.
>>>>
>>>> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
>>>> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will
>>> need
>>>> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
>>>> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need
>>> to
>>>> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
>>> and as
>>>> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met some
>>> of
>>>> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
>>> project
>>>> can succeed.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>>>>
>>>> Ross
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Twitter: @rgardler
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
>>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>>>>
>>>> Hi John,
>>>>
>>>> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for constructive
>>>> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
>>> using
>>>> your suggestions.
>>>>
>>>> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von Gosling,
>>>> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
>>>> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the history
>>>> was
>>>> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
>>> went
>>>> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
>>> gives
>>>> further explanation of the project history in a response below. Indeed,
>>>> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
>>> git),
>>>> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve
>>> and
>>>> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>>>>
>>>> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
>>> Bruce is
>>>> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
>>>> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good mentors,
>>>> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest in
>>>> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
>>> continuing
>>>> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
>>> experience
>>>> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
>>>> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
>>>> constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
>>>> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is an
>>>> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
>>>> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay for
>>>> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project and
>>>> people to the ASF.
>>>>
>>>> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
>>> suggestions
>>>> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal.
>>> Even
>>>> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
>>>> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
>>> forward.
>>>> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
>>> mentioned
>>>> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
>>> code
>>>> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with
>>> his
>>>> thoughts:
>>>>
>>>> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two questions
>>>> specifically:
>>>>
>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities
>>> to
>>>> build cross platform clients?
>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
>>>> persistence stores?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <roman@shaposhnik.org
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
>>> about:
>>>>>>    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>>> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
>>>> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
>>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
>>>> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>> It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
>>>>>> code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial committers
>>>>>> is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
>>>>>> making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
>>>>>>    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
>>>>>> with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
>>>>>>
>>>>> So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
>>>> suspect
>>>>> its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on the
>>>>> product and it was kept internal.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
>>> products"
>>>>> section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
>>> with
>>>>> other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair of
>>> one
>>>>> of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with
>>> the
>>>>> other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
>>>> their
>>>>> code base.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some other ways to address this section:
>>>>>
>>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>>> communities
>>>> to
>>>>> build cross platform clients?
>>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
>>>>> persistence stores?
>>>>>
>>>>> etc..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Roman.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
>>> brianm@skife.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> +1 !
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Cool.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
>>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named
>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>>> RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed,
>>>> easy
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>> message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
>>>> amounts
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> streaming data.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
>>> URL:
>>>>>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
>>> 2F%
>>>> 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
>>>> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>>>> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>>>> Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
>>> org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ---------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> perl -e 'print
>>>> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
>>> );'
>>>> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
>>> icrosoft.com%
>>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
>>>> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
>>>> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com
>>> %
>>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
>>>> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
>>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
>>>> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
>>> 6e60c908d40597
>>>> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>>>> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
>>>> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>>> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
>>>> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>>>> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>>>>
>>

-- 
Emmanuel Lecharny

Symas.com
directory.apache.org


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Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.

[Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>]

(note mixed private/public lists)
Julian Hyde wrote on 11/11/16 8:31 AM:
> I like the way that Reynold is coming at this.
> 
> I am aware of the rule mandating English for discussions. But in the
> interests of having no more rules than are strictly necessary, is it
> not sufficient to tell PMCs (and PPMCs): "Do whatever you believe
> will engage the largest possible community."

For user@ lists and places where a project is helping end users solve
problems, that makes sense, as long as it's archived.

For the development side of the project (making decisions
collaboratively, equitably deciding on new committers, not favoring
vendors, etc.), how can the ASF provide proper oversight of that
project, given that we don't have sufficient Chinese language skills
across our Membership, officers, or our board?

My first reaction is that Apache is a great place - but it's not the
right place for every project.  On the big picture I definitely would
love to see more well-run open source in China.  But I wonder if we as
an organization have the governance capacity to be effective at doing
this directly.  (I.e. there are plenty of individual Members who are
helping there; just not sure that means these should be Apache projects
yet).

Does that make sense?  This also would be a great topic for the
Community Development project to work on for a while: what other,
general ways can we help non-English language communities better learn
about effective open source governance?

- Shane

> 
> Most PMCs will choose English. Some won\u2019t. Times they are a
> changing.
> 
> Julian
> 
> 
>> On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:42 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Background: I have no tie to RocketMQ. I didn't even know about it until
>> today and I don't know any of the people associated with the project. I am
>> Chinese but living in the US. I'm purely playing devil's advocate about a
>> meta-point here and don't know if it applies to RocketMQ or not.
>>
>> I definitely agree with Jeff's point that "my thoughts about community
>> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible".
>>
>> That said, for a project started in China, it is unclear switching the
>> primary development language from Chinese to English would help with
>> accomplishing that goal. While lowering the bar for non-Chinese speakers to
>> participate, it will limit the efficacy of its original developers, and
>> increases the bar for more Chinese developers, which are the more natural,
>> immediate expansion targets for the community.
>>
>> If we as a community want to enforce the usage of English as the standard,
>> we should just explicitly say that.
>>
>> I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it is
>> not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance. Afterall,
>> three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap) are
>> currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active users
>> even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
>>> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
>>> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
>>> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
>>> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
>>> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
>>> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
>>> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
>>> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
>>> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
>>>
>>> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn\u2019t
>>> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
>>> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when
>>> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
>>> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
>>> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
>>> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
>>> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
>>>
>>> I personally don\u2019t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
>>> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
>>> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
>>> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
>>> don\u2019t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
>>> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
>>> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
>>> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too\u2026 but I would be
>>> interested in why.
>>>
>>> Just my usual .02.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>> On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <to...@spicule.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about
>>> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
>>> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
>>>>
>>>> of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
>>> happened" didn't mention the language.
>>>>
>>>> Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non
>>> Chinese speaking people follow development?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>>> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
>>>> Adding members@
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>>> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>>>>> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
>>>>> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
>>>>> English?
>>>>>
>>>>> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
>>> English
>>>>> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
>>>>> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
>>> when it
>>>>> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
>>> lower
>>>>> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
>>> English
>>>>> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>>>>>
>>>>> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
>>> exclude
>>>>> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
>>> native
>>>>> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
>>> according
>>>>> to Wikipedia.
>>>>>
>>>>> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
>>>>> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>>>>>
>>>
> 


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Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.

["Stephen D. Williams" <sd...@lig.net>]

In a similar vein, all aviation radio communication must be conducted in English.  There is even more of an overriding need there
due to safety, but it is driven by similar realities.

In addition to historical origins, the bulk of original and continued core participants being English only or at least primarily
sharing English as the only viable option, the following statistics may indicate why English will remain the best choice for a
common language:

http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/languages.htm

Thus, if you add the secondary speaker populations to the primary speaker populations, you get the following (and I believe more
accurate) list:
(number of speakers in parentheses)

 1. *Mandarin Chinese* (1.12 billion)
 2. *English* (480 million)
 3. *Spanish* (320 million)
 4. *Russian* (285 million)
 5. *French* (265 million)
 6. *Hindi/Urdu *(250 million)
 7. *Arabic* (221 million)
 8. *Portuguese* (188 million)
 9. *Bengali* (185 million)
10. *Japanese* (133 million)
11. *German* (109 million)

The following is a list of these languages in terms of the number of countries where each is spoken.  The number that follows is the
total number of countries that use that language (from Weber, 1997):

 1. *English* (115)
 2. *French* (35)
 3. *Arabic* (24)
 4. *Spanish* (20)
 5. *Russian* (16)
 6. *German* (9)
 7. *Mandarin* (5)
 8. *Portuguese* (5)
 9. *Hindi/Urdu *(2)
10. *Bengali* (1)
11. *Japanese* (1)

The number of countries includes /core countries/ (where the language has full legal or official status), /outer core countries /
(where the language has some legal or official status and is an influential minority language, such as English in India or French in
Algeria)/, /and /fringe/ /countries/ (where the language has no legal status, but is an influential minority language in trade,
tourism, and the preferred foreign language of the young, such as English in Japan or French in Romania).  For a complete breakdown
of each and an accompanying chart, click here <http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/worldlang.htm>.

After weighing six factors (number of primary speakers, number of secondary speakers, number and population of countries where used,
number of major fields using the language internationally, economic power of countries using the languages, and socio-literary
prestige), Weber compiled the following list of the world's ten most influential languages:
(number of points given in parentheses)

 1. *English *(37)
 2. *French* (23)
 3. *Spanish* (20)
 4. *Russian* (16)
 5. *Arabic* (14)
 6. *Chinese* (13)
 7. *German* (12)
 8. *Japanese* (10)
 9. *Portuguese* (10)
10. *Hindi/Urdu* (9)

sdw

On 11/11/16 7:27 AM, jan i wrote:
> I mostly listen on this list, but being international I simply cannot let
> this go un responded.
>
> I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say that
> if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to use a
> more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that the
> rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
>
> I politely think some demographics are really incorrect here…there are
> quite a lot of people who speak Chinese outside China (and not only Chinese
> people living Abroad). Take a good look at the eastern countries and you
> will hear a lot of Chinese. Of course in these countries it is not the main
> language, but bear in mind english is also not the main language in quite a
> number of countries.
>
> If we look at which language is most international as in spoken by most
> people, then english is not on top of the list, languages like Spanish and
> Chinese surpass english.
>
> For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on ActiveMQ,
> and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such as
> RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are in
> Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your
> tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there
> are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to
> define on who your want your audience to be.
>
> Well remember by that saying “english” you exclude e.g. people that do not
> speak english, so is that really better.
>
> Instead of making this a dog-fight whether english is THE language, we
> should think about how to make tools that embrace at least the big language
> groups. Apache Software Foundation has its roots in the US, but even in the
> US you find large groups that speak other languages, and I sure hope ASF
> embraces the world independent of race, gender …. and language.
>
> I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice, then
> getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.  What
> responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the
> members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If
> this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in
> attempting to answer you.
>
>
> I for one, think this is an excellent theme for members@, do we really want
> to limit ASF to only embrace english speaking communities…at least that was
> not the ASF I saw when I joined.
>
> rgds
> jan I.
>
> On 11 November 2016 at 08:14, Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
>> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
>> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
>> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
>> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
>> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
>> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
>> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
>> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
>> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
>>
>> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t
>> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
>> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when
>> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
>> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
>> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
>> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
>> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
>>
>> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
>> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
>> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
>> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
>> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
>> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
>> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
>> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
>> interested in why.
>>
>> Just my usual .02.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <to...@spicule.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about
>> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
>> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
>>
>> of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
>> happened" didn't mention the language.
>>
>> Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non
>> Chinese speaking people follow development?
>>
>> On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Adding members@
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>>>> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
>>>> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
>>>> English?
>>>>
>>>> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
>>> English
>>>> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
>>>> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when
>>> it
>>>> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
>>> lower
>>>> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
>>> English
>>>> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>>>>
>>>> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
>>> exclude
>>>> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
>>> native
>>>> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
>>> according
>>>> to Wikipedia.
>>>>
>>>> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
>>>> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lu...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Gunnar,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
>>>>> real,
>>>>> but just
>>>>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
>>>>> China,
>>>>> or any other territories from all of the world.
>>>>>
>>>>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
>>> LABEL
>>>>> for such
>>>>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
>>> "issue" to
>>>>> describe like
>>>>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
>>>>> others...
>>>>> that's not right way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
>>>>> contributing to
>>>>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
>>>>> involved
>>>>> in many
>>>>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
>>>>> mailing
>>>>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
>>>>>
>>>>> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
>>>>> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
>>>>> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
>>>>> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
>>>>> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
>>>>> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
>>>>> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
>>>>>
>>>>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
>>>>> could check
>>>>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
>>>>> access
>>>>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
>>> speakers,
>>>>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
>>> Way.
>>>>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
>>>>> community, and try
>>>>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
>>> patience
>>>>> for
>>>>> those new comers.
>>>>>
>>>>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
>>> journey,
>>>>> our experience
>>>>>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
>>>>> challenges...through
>>>>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
>>> many
>>>>> potential projects
>>>>> who are interesting to join Apache family.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
>>>>> Trafodion
>>>>> community"
>>>>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion
>>>>> PMC
>>>>> know
>>>>> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
>>>>> session recordings and
>>>>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
>>>>> discussion
>>>>> if necessary:-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
>>> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
>>> from
>>>>>> China.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
>>>>> active
>>>>>> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
>>>>>> Chinese.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard
>>> not to
>>>>>> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions
>>> etc
>>>>>> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
>>>>>> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
>>>>> China
>>>>>> can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues
>>> like
>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gunnar
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
>>>>> years
>>>>>> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
>>>>> beyond
>>>>>> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip
>>> to
>>>>>> China.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to.
>>> We
>>>>>> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
>>>>> with
>>>>>> this proposal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project
>>> and
>>>>>> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We
>>> will
>>>>> need
>>>>>> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China
>>> born
>>>>>> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we
>>> need
>>>>> to
>>>>>> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
>>>>> and as
>>>>>> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met
>>> some
>>>>> of
>>>>>> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
>>>>> project
>>>>>> can succeed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Twitter: @rgardler
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
>>>>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
>>> constructive
>>>>>> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
>>>>> using
>>>>>> your suggestions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
>>> Gosling,
>>>>>> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
>>>>>> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
>>> history
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
>>>>> went
>>>>>> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
>>>>> gives
>>>>>> further explanation of the project history in a response below.
>>> Indeed,
>>>>>> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
>>>>> git),
>>>>>> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve
>>>>> and
>>>>>> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
>>>>> Bruce is
>>>>>> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
>>>>>> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
>>> mentors,
>>>>>> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest
>>> in
>>>>>> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
>>>>> continuing
>>>>>> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
>>>>> experience
>>>>>> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
>>>>>> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
>>>>>> constructively with others on open source and to foster a community
>>> of
>>>>>> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF
>>> is an
>>>>>> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
>>>>>> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay
>>> for
>>>>>> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project
>>> and
>>>>>> people to the ASF.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
>>>>> suggestions
>>>>>> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
>>> proposal.
>>>>> Even
>>>>>> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be
>>> great
>>>>>> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
>>>>> forward.
>>>>>> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
>>>>> mentioned
>>>>>> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
>>>>> code
>>>>>> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with
>>>>> his
>>>>>> thoughts:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
>>> questions
>>>>>> specifically:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>>> communities
>>>>> to
>>>>>> build cross platform clients?
>>>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
>>> backend
>>>>>> persistence stores?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
>>> john.d.ament@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
>>> roman@shaposhnik.org
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
>>>>> about:
>>>>>>>>    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>>>>> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
>>>>>> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
>>>>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>>>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
>>>>>> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>>> It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
>>>>>>>> code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
>>> committers
>>>>>>>> is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
>>>>>>>> making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
>>>>>>>>    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
>>>>>>>> with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
>>>>>> suspect
>>>>>>> its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on
>>> the
>>>>>>> product and it was kept internal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
>>>>> products"
>>>>>>> section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
>>>>> with
>>>>>>> other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair
>>> of
>>>>> one
>>>>>>> of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today
>>> in
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> code base.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some other ways to address this section:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>>>>> communities
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> build cross platform clients?
>>>>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
>>> backend
>>>>>>> persistence stores?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> etc..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Roman.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
>>>>> brianm@skife.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> +1 !
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Cool.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
>>>>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling
>>> named
>>>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>>>>> RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
>>> distributed,
>>>>>> easy
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>>> message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
>>>>>> amounts
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> streaming data.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
>>>>> URL:
>>>>>>>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protect
>>> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
>>>>> 2F%
>>>>>> 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>%2Fincubator%
>>> 2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
>>>>>> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908
>>> d40597dcff%
>>>>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
>>> 036&sdata=
>>>>>> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>>>>>> Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
>>> apache.org
>>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>>> general-help@incubator.apache.
>>>>> org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
>>> org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> perl -e 'print
>>>>>> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
>>>>> );'
>>>>>> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect
>>> ion.outlook.com/?url=
>>>>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
>>>>> icrosoft.com%
>>>>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>>>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
>>>>>> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>>>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40mi
>>> crosoft.com
>>>>> %
>>>>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>>>>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
>>>>>> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
>>>>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
>>>>>> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
>>>>> 6e60c908d40597
>>>>>> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>>>>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>>>>>> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>>>>>> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
>>>>>> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>>>>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
>>> 036&sdata=
>>>>>> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>


-- 
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Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.

[Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>]

Le 13/11/16 à 22:57, Reynold Xin a écrit :
> "a better global way to A) communicate across a medium that everyone uses
> daily B) archive to search and come back to"
>
> How would we even validate or decide that? For discussions like this it is
> very easy to fall into confirmation bias.
>
> I use mailing lists all the time since it is the Apache Way, but I also
> admit there are potentially better ways for other projects. People that are
> used to mailing lists might think mailing lists are the best thing in the
> world, but the reality is that majority of the developers in this world,
> outside a few core open source projects, have never used mailing lists. 
Many projects never used unit tests, Version control system, Bug tracker
systems, etc...

That probably explain why many projects are plain failures too.

> If
> we talk to the QQ/Wechat/web-based-forum generation in China and force them
> to use mailing lists, they might comply because it is the Apache Way, but
> they will also develop the sentiment that the ASF refuses to change and
> adapt newer technologies.

Are you suggesting they should ignore the time zones ? Because, all in
all, it's all about TZ and asynchronous interactions.

Yes, sure, it's way more convenient to be able to have everyone on a
project being connected at the very same time and chatting live.

Start with a project gathering people from Australia, South Korea,
California, Florida, England, Turkey, France, Italy, Germany,
Switzerland, Slovakia, China, Netherland, Poland,  try to get all those
people collaborating... The Directory project tried to organized weekly
calls, we never were able to do it more than three weeks in a raw : some
had to wake up at 7am, others at midnight, whild some were having lunch.
Simply not flying.

And please, come on with english being a problem : it's way better than
having all of those different people speaking in their own language and
using google translate (just give it a try with Koran, turkish or
german. Good luck with that !!!).



>
> And to be honest, while I think mailing lists are great for simple voting
> and information dissemination, there are obvious downsides of mailing lists
> too. That's why a lot of projects also augment mailing lists via video
> discussions, google docs for commenting, wiki, etc.
At the end of the day, the only reliable source, that anyone can read
from almost everywhere on the planet, asynchronously, is and will always
be the mailing list.

OTOH, get me a pointer to video archives that I can search, get me
traces of 10 years old google docs visible by *everyone* even those who
haven't been invited to access them, get me 2010 IRC logs that I can
read in 2016...

>
> In reality, there are also legal reasons why we use mailing lists, and
> those are not as well known. We should document those and make them more
> visible too.

Please stop thinking that we have a legal reason for everything we are
doing. This is not a state, we don't have a Law for every single aspect
of what we do.

Time to read "the ASF WAY Book" ;-)

-- 
Emmanuel Lecharny

Symas.com
directory.apache.org


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Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[jan i <ja...@apache.org>]

I mostly listen on this list, but being international I simply cannot let
this go un responded.

I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say that
if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to use a
more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that the
rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.

I politely think some demographics are really incorrect here…there are
quite a lot of people who speak Chinese outside China (and not only Chinese
people living Abroad). Take a good look at the eastern countries and you
will hear a lot of Chinese. Of course in these countries it is not the main
language, but bear in mind english is also not the main language in quite a
number of countries.

If we look at which language is most international as in spoken by most
people, then english is not on top of the list, languages like Spanish and
Chinese surpass english.

For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on ActiveMQ,
and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such as
RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are in
Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your
tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there
are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to
define on who your want your audience to be.

Well remember by that saying “english” you exclude e.g. people that do not
speak english, so is that really better.

Instead of making this a dog-fight whether english is THE language, we
should think about how to make tools that embrace at least the big language
groups. Apache Software Foundation has its roots in the US, but even in the
US you find large groups that speak other languages, and I sure hope ASF
embraces the world independent of race, gender …. and language.

I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice, then
getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.  What
responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the
members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If
this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in
attempting to answer you.


I for one, think this is an excellent theme for members@, do we really want
to limit ASF to only embrace english speaking communities…at least that was
not the ASF I saw when I joined.

rgds
jan I.

On 11 November 2016 at 08:14, Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org> wrote:

> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
>
> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t
> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when
> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
>
> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> interested in why.
>
> Just my usual .02.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <to...@spicule.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about
> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
>
> of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
> happened" didn't mention the language.
>
> Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non
> Chinese speaking people follow development?
>
> On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Adding members@
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>> > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
>> > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
>> > English?
>> >
>> > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
>> English
>> > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
>> > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when
>> it
>> > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
>> lower
>> > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
>> English
>> > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>> >
>> > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
>> exclude
>> > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
>> native
>> > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
>> according
>> > to Wikipedia.
>> >
>> > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
>> > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lu...@apache.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Gunnar,
>> >>
>> >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
>> >> real,
>> >> but just
>> >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
>> >> China,
>> >> or any other territories from all of the world.
>> >>
>> >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
>> LABEL
>> >> for such
>> >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
>> "issue" to
>> >> describe like
>> >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
>> >> others...
>> >> that's not right way.
>> >>
>> >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
>> >> contributing to
>> >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
>> >> involved
>> >> in many
>> >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
>> >>
>> >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
>> >> mailing
>> >> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
>> >>
>> >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
>> >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
>> >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
>> >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
>> >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
>> >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
>> >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
>> >>
>> >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
>> >> could check
>> >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
>> >>
>> >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
>> >> access
>> >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
>> speakers,
>> >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
>> Way.
>> >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
>> >> community, and try
>> >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
>> patience
>> >> for
>> >> those new comers.
>> >>
>> >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
>> journey,
>> >> our experience
>> >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
>> >> challenges...through
>> >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
>> many
>> >> potential projects
>> >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
>> >>
>> >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
>> >> Trafodion
>> >> community"
>> >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion
>> >> PMC
>> >> know
>> >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
>> >> session recordings and
>> >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
>> >> discussion
>> >> if necessary:-)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
>> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>> >> >
>> >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
>> from
>> >> > China.
>> >> >
>> >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
>> >> active
>> >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
>> >> > Chinese.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard
>> not to
>> >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions
>> etc
>> >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>> >> >
>> >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
>> >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
>> >> China
>> >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues
>> like
>> >> > this.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks,
>> >> >
>> >> > Gunnar
>> >> >
>> >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
>> >> years
>> >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
>> >> beyond
>> >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip
>> to
>> >> > China.
>> >> >
>> >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to.
>> We
>> >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
>> >> with
>> >> > this proposal.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project
>> and
>> >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We
>> will
>> >> need
>> >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China
>> born
>> >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we
>> need
>> >> to
>> >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
>> >> and as
>> >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met
>> some
>> >> of
>> >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
>> >> project
>> >> > can succeed.
>> >> >
>> >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>> >> >
>> >> > Ross
>> >> >
>> >> > ---
>> >> > Twitter: @rgardler
>> >> >
>> >> > ________________________________
>> >> > From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
>> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
>> >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
>> >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi John,
>> >> >
>> >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
>> constructive
>> >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
>> >> using
>> >> > your suggestions.
>> >> >
>> >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
>> Gosling,
>> >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
>> >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
>> history
>> >> > was
>> >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
>> >> went
>> >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
>> >> gives
>> >> > further explanation of the project history in a response below.
>> Indeed,
>> >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
>> >> git),
>> >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve
>> >> and
>> >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>> >> >
>> >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
>> >> Bruce is
>> >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
>> >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
>> mentors,
>> >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest
>> in
>> >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
>> >> continuing
>> >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
>> >> experience
>> >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
>> >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
>> >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a community
>> of
>> >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF
>> is an
>> >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
>> >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay
>> for
>> >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project
>> and
>> >> > people to the ASF.
>> >> >
>> >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
>> >> suggestions
>> >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
>> proposal.
>> >> Even
>> >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be
>> great
>> >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
>> >> forward.
>> >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
>> >> mentioned
>> >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
>> >> code
>> >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with
>> >> his
>> >> > thoughts:
>> >> >
>> >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
>> questions
>> >> > specifically:
>> >> >
>> >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>> communities
>> >> to
>> >> > build cross platform clients?
>> >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
>> backend
>> >> > persistence stores?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Bruce
>> >> >
>> >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
>> john.d.ament@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
>> roman@shaposhnik.org
>> >> >
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
>> >> about:
>> >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
>> >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
>> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
>> >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
>> >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
>> committers
>> >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
>> >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
>> >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
>> >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
>> >> > suspect
>> >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on
>> the
>> >> > > product and it was kept internal.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
>> >> products"
>> >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
>> >> with
>> >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair
>> of
>> >> one
>> >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with
>> >> the
>> >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today
>> in
>> >> > their
>> >> > > code base.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>> >> communities
>> >> > to
>> >> > > build cross platform clients?
>> >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
>> backend
>> >> > > persistence stores?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > etc..
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Thanks,
>> >> > > > Roman.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
>> >> brianm@skife.org>
>> >> > > > wrote:
>> >> > > > > +1 !
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com
>> >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >> Cool.
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >> +1
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
>> >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
>> >> > > > wrote:
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling
>> named
>> >> > > Apache
>> >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
>> distributed,
>> >> > easy
>> >> > > > to
>> >> > > > >> use
>> >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
>> >> > amounts
>> >> > > > of
>> >> > > > >> > streaming data.
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
>> >> URL:
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protect
>> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
>> >> 2F%
>> >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>%2Fincubator%
>> 2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
>> >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908
>> d40597dcff%
>> >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
>> 036&sdata=
>> >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> > Thanks,
>> >> > > > >> >
>> >> > > > >> > Bruce
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > ---------
>> >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
>> apache.org
>> >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> general-help@incubator.apache.
>> >> org
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > > >>
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> ---------
>> >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
>> org
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > perl -e 'print
>> >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
>> >> );'
>> >> >
>> >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect
>> ion.outlook.com/?url=
>> >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
>> >> icrosoft.com%
>> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
>> >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
>> >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40mi
>> crosoft.com
>> >> %
>> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
>> >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
>> >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
>> >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
>> >> 6e60c908d40597
>> >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>> >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
>> >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
>> >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>> >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
>> 036&sdata=
>> >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>]

I like the way that Reynold is coming at this.

I am aware of the rule mandating English for discussions. But in the interests of having no more rules than are strictly necessary, is it not sufficient to tell PMCs (and PPMCs): "Do whatever you believe will engage the largest possible community."

Most PMCs will choose English. Some won’t. Times they are a changing.

Julian


> On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:42 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> Background: I have no tie to RocketMQ. I didn't even know about it until
> today and I don't know any of the people associated with the project. I am
> Chinese but living in the US. I'm purely playing devil's advocate about a
> meta-point here and don't know if it applies to RocketMQ or not.
> 
> I definitely agree with Jeff's point that "my thoughts about community
> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible".
> 
> That said, for a project started in China, it is unclear switching the
> primary development language from Chinese to English would help with
> accomplishing that goal. While lowering the bar for non-Chinese speakers to
> participate, it will limit the efficacy of its original developers, and
> increases the bar for more Chinese developers, which are the more natural,
> immediate expansion targets for the community.
> 
> If we as a community want to enforce the usage of English as the standard,
> we should just explicitly say that.
> 
> I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it is
> not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance. Afterall,
> three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap) are
> currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active users
> even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
>> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
>> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
>> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
>> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
>> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
>> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
>> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
>> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
>> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
>> 
>> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t
>> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
>> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when
>> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
>> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
>> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
>> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
>> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
>> 
>> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
>> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
>> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
>> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
>> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
>> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
>> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
>> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
>> interested in why.
>> 
>> Just my usual .02.
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>>> On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <to...@spicule.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about
>> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
>> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
>>> 
>>> of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
>> happened" didn't mention the language.
>>> 
>>> Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non
>> Chinese speaking people follow development?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
>>> Adding members@
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>>>> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
>>>> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
>>>> English?
>>>> 
>>>> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
>> English
>>>> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
>>>> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
>> when it
>>>> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
>> lower
>>>> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
>> English
>>>> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>>>> 
>>>> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
>> exclude
>>>> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
>> native
>>>> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
>> according
>>>> to Wikipedia.
>>>> 
>>>> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
>>>> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>>>> 
>> 


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Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com>]

What about an Apache Language Exchange TLP that would help people bridge
language barriers, all from an Apache POV. There could be language
resources, links to places, books, and whatnots that folks have found
helpful to learn a language. Perhaps even a weekly chat channel for people
to congregate and talk in language X about tech topics with the goal of
getting better at language X.

Gary

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com>
wrote:

> I’m not sure that changes anything… that has been the nature of this since
> the beginning.
>
> For Apache… most happens on the mailing lists for very obvious reasons.
> Doing things outside tand not bringing them to the lists is frowned upon
> because it leaves the rest of the community in the dark.
>
> You see the challenges… they were explicitly discussed in this thread.
> English is unfortunately/fortunately the adaptor of communication to the
> world.  Thats not “western arrogance”.  Its a fact.  Someone has to be the
> mediator and english it is.
>
> If a community wants to extend across borders and get more non-localized
> input, then english will likely be the need.  If a project/PMC does not,
> care, then utilize your language de-jour with the understanding of the
> consequences.
>
> I don’t really see a solution beyond that.  I guess if you have an area
> where the devs discuss in another language and someone wants to translate
> it to english and bring it to the lists so others can be a part of it, I
> assume that would work.  But that seems like a lot of work to me.  Do you
> have a better solution?
>
> Jeff
>
>
> On Nov 11, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> A few things...
>
> 1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates outside
> of "everything happens on mailing lists."
> 2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those
> communities.
> 3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to encourage
> this class of contributors to engage more with the worldwide community
> since they are a huge source of potential committers.
> 4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English
> translators seem to work fine but not vice versa.
>
> So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building.
>
> Gunnar
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com>
> wrote:
>
>> and you got your answer…. what changes?
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a
>> question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using
>> Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are
>> part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions
>> expressed by individuals.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Gunnar
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
>> > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as
>> it is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance.
>> Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap)
>> are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active
>> users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
>> >
>> > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs
>> reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose
>> country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.
>> >
>> > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as
>> I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my
>> statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my
>> argument was most *definitely* defensible.
>> >
>> > I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say
>> that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to
>> use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that
>> the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
>> >
>> > For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on
>> ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such
>> as RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are
>> in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your
>> tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there
>> are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to
>> define on who your want your audience to be.
>> >
>> > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western
>> “arrogance” because our main language is an international one.  But it’s
>> not going to change your situation or position.
>> >
>> > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice,
>> then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.
>> What responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the
>> members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If
>> this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in
>> attempting to answer you.
>> >
>> > Jeff
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <mailto:
>> jgenender@apache.org>>> wrote:
>> > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most
>> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
>> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
>> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
>> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
>> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
>> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
>> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
>> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
>> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
>> > >
>> > > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
>> doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.
>> This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project
>> when they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
>> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
>> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
>> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
>> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
>> > >
>> > > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
>> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
>> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
>> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
>> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
>> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
>> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
>> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
>> interested in why.
>> > >
>> > > Just my usual .02.
>> > >
>> > > Jeff
>> > >
>> > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk
>> <ma...@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:
>> tom@spicule.co.uk>>> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
>> about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
>> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
>> > > >
>> > > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
>> never happened" didn't mention the language.
>> > > >
>> > > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would
>> non Chinese speaking people follow development?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
>> > > > Adding members@
>> > > >
>> > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that
>> consist
>> > > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put
>> it
>> > > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must
>> be in
>> > > > > English?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
>> English
>> > > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
>> software
>> > > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of
>> proficiency when it
>> > > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
>> much lower
>> > > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
>> English
>> > > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will
>> also exclude
>> > > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number
>> of native
>> > > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
>> according
>> > > > > to Wikipedia.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
>> countries,
>> > > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>> > > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Gunnar
>> > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
>
>
>


-- 
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Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Willem Jiang <wi...@gmail.com>]

I cannot agree more with that.

It's not easy for the average user to understand the "mailing list rule",
all they care is to get the answer as soon as possible. If they can get the
answer from localize channel, they won't dig the mailing list.  So It could
be a good way if the committer or developer can guide them to find the
answer in a more public way.

As a committer I wants to get touch with more users from different
communication channel, and we just need to keep in mind of the "mailing
list rule".

For the user who don't want to subscribe the mailing list, nabble[1] would
be another choice. It just works as a forum to mailing list bridge.
Maybe we need to consider to introduce another bridge between the user
mailing  and stackoverflow.


[1]http://camel.465427.n5.nabble.com/



Willem Jiang

Blog: http://willemjiang.blogspot.com (English)
          http://jnn.iteye.com  (Chinese)
Twitter: willemjiang
Weibo: 姜宁willem

On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 3:01 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I actually take a different tack on that.
>
> I answer questions everywhere and provide a pointer for other fora for
> followups. It gives a friendlier feeling, improves searchability and still
> encourages the mailing lists.
>
> My experience is that simply not answering and pushing the OP to the lists
> has a low success rate.
>
> Another approach is to post the answer on the mailing lists and put a link
> to that thread  on the non-Apache site. That's a bit friendlier, but I
> don't think it is as good.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I’m not sure that changes anything… that has been the nature of this
>> since the beginning.
>>
>> For Apache… most happens on the mailing lists for very obvious reasons.
>> Doing things outside tand not bringing them to the lists is frowned upon
>> because it leaves the rest of the community in the dark.
>>
>> You see the challenges… they were explicitly discussed in this thread.
>> English is unfortunately/fortunately the adaptor of communication to the
>> world.  Thats not “western arrogance”.  Its a fact.  Someone has to be the
>> mediator and english it is.
>>
>> If a community wants to extend across borders and get more non-localized
>> input, then english will likely be the need.  If a project/PMC does not,
>> care, then utilize your language de-jour with the understanding of the
>> consequences.
>>
>> I don’t really see a solution beyond that.  I guess if you have an area
>> where the devs discuss in another language and someone wants to translate
>> it to english and bring it to the lists so others can be a part of it, I
>> assume that would work.  But that seems like a lot of work to me.  Do you
>> have a better solution?
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > A few things...
>> >
>> > 1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates
>> outside of "everything happens on mailing lists."
>> > 2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those
>> communities.
>> > 3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to
>> encourage this class of contributors to engage more with the worldwide
>> community since they are a huge source of potential committers.
>> > 4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English
>> translators seem to work fine but not vice versa.
>> >
>> > So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building.
>> >
>> > Gunnar
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <
>> jgenender@savoirtech.com <ma...@savoirtech.com>> wrote:
>> > and you got your answer…. what changes?
>> >
>> > Jeff
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com
>> <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a
>> question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using
>> Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are
>> part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions
>> expressed by individuals.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > >
>> > > Gunnar
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <mailto:
>> jgenender@apache.org>>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>
>> wrote:
>> > > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as
>> it is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance.
>> Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap)
>> are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active
>> users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
>> > >
>> > > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs
>> reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose
>> country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.
>> > >
>> > > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said,
>> as I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my
>> statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my
>> argument was most *definitely* defensible.
>> > >
>> > > I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did*
>> say that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need
>> to use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say
>> that the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
>> > >
>> > > For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on
>> ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such
>> as RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are
>> in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your
>> tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there
>> are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to
>> define on who your want your audience to be.
>> > >
>> > > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western
>> “arrogance” because our main language is an international one.  But it’s
>> not going to change your situation or position.
>> > >
>> > > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice,
>> then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.
>> What responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the
>> members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If
>> this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in
>> attempting to answer you.
>> > >
>> > > Jeff
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <
>> jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:
>> jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:
>> jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:
>> jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
>> > > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most
>> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
>> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
>> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
>> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
>> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
>> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
>> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
>> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
>> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
>> > > >
>> > > > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
>> doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.
>> This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project
>> when they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
>> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
>> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
>> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
>> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
>> > > >
>> > > > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
>> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
>> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
>> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
>> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
>> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
>> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
>> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
>> interested in why.
>> > > >
>> > > > Just my usual .02.
>> > > >
>> > > > Jeff
>> > > >
>> > > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk
>> <ma...@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:
>> tom@spicule.co.uk>> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk>
>> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk>>>> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
>> about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
>> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
>> never happened" didn't mention the language.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how
>> would non Chinese speaking people follow development?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org>>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org>>>>> wrote:
>> > > > > Adding members@
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org>>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org>>>>> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that
>> consist
>> > > > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or
>> put it
>> > > > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must
>> be in
>> > > > > > English?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English,
>> as English
>> > > > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
>> software
>> > > > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of
>> proficiency when it
>> > > > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China
>> is much lower
>> > > > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to
>> learn English
>> > > > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will
>> also exclude
>> > > > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the
>> number of native
>> > > > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to
>> 1 according
>> > > > > > to Wikipedia.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
>> countries,
>> > > > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>> > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Thanks,
>> > >
>> > > Gunnar
>> > > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Gunnar
>> > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
>>
>>
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

I don't have any solutions, hence the discussion. If people show up on the
mailing lists, you see them and can do whatever makes sense. That's not the
issue.

Like Ted, I believe the friendly approach is the way to go. We're using
China as an example due to scale but I've seen language-specific user
groups in every endeavour through my career. I've presented in my native
language (Swedish) to Scandinavians as well as in English all over.
Sometimes, people in the audience have translated. Point is, you figure it
out if there's a will. Now, it's a lot simpler because of the translation
technology so I'd error on the side of inclusion whenever possible.

Anyway, I intend to work with the Chinese folks that interact with the
Tafodion project in English to figure out how we can bridge language
barriers better. Hopefully, we'll figure something out that can be reused
by other projects down the line. If not, at least we tried.

BTW, the QQ group I'm referring to is named "Geode/Trafodion Elite Group"
(group ID 176011868) from what I'm being told. Can't beat that. :)

Thanks,

Gunnar



On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I actually take a different tack on that.
>
> I answer questions everywhere and provide a pointer for other fora for
> followups. It gives a friendlier feeling, improves searchability and still
> encourages the mailing lists.
>
> My experience is that simply not answering and pushing the OP to the lists
> has a low success rate.
>
> Another approach is to post the answer on the mailing lists and put a link
> to that thread  on the non-Apache site. That's a bit friendlier, but I
> don't think it is as good.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I’m not sure that changes anything… that has been the nature of this
> since
> > the beginning.
> >
> > For Apache… most happens on the mailing lists for very obvious reasons.
> > Doing things outside tand not bringing them to the lists is frowned upon
> > because it leaves the rest of the community in the dark.
> >
> > You see the challenges… they were explicitly discussed in this thread.
> > English is unfortunately/fortunately the adaptor of communication to the
> > world.  Thats not “western arrogance”.  Its a fact.  Someone has to be
> the
> > mediator and english it is.
> >
> > If a community wants to extend across borders and get more non-localized
> > input, then english will likely be the need.  If a project/PMC does not,
> > care, then utilize your language de-jour with the understanding of the
> > consequences.
> >
> > I don’t really see a solution beyond that.  I guess if you have an area
> > where the devs discuss in another language and someone wants to translate
> > it to english and bring it to the lists so others can be a part of it, I
> > assume that would work.  But that seems like a lot of work to me.  Do you
> > have a better solution?
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > A few things...
> > >
> > > 1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates
> > outside of "everything happens on mailing lists."
> > > 2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those
> > communities.
> > > 3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to
> > encourage this class of contributors to engage more with the worldwide
> > community since they are a huge source of potential committers.
> > > 4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English
> > translators seem to work fine but not vice versa.
> > >
> > > So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building.
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <
> > jgenender@savoirtech.com <ma...@savoirtech.com>> wrote:
> > > and you got your answer…. what changes?
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com
> > <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a
> > question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using
> > Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are
> > part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for
> opinions
> > expressed by individuals.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Gunnar
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
> > <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <mailto:
> > jgenender@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> <mailto:
> > rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>
> wrote:
> > > > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as
> > it is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance.
> > Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap)
> > are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active
> > users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
> > > >
> > > > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs
> > reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about
> whose
> > country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.
> > > >
> > > > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said,
> > as I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my
> > statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my
> > argument was most *definitely* defensible.
> > > >
> > > > I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did*
> say
> > that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to
> > use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that
> > the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
> > > >
> > > > For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on
> > ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF
> such
> > as RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions
> are
> > in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on
> your
> > tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But
> there
> > are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to
> > define on who your want your audience to be.
> > > >
> > > > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western
> > “arrogance” because our main language is an international one.  But it’s
> > not going to change your situation or position.
> > > >
> > > > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice,
> > then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to
> hear.
> > What responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of
> the
> > members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?
> If
> > this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in
> > attempting to answer you.
> > > >
> > > > Jeff
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <
> > jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:
> > jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:
> > jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:
> > jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
> > > > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> > international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
> > it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
> > you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross
> borders
> > or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell
> you
> > that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> > problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> > Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
> > from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you
> want
> > your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> > > > >
> > > > > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
> > doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.
> > This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the
> project
> > when they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses
> any
> > problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
> > unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC
> or,
> > the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> > insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> > > > >
> > > > > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> > language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
> > that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
> > would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
> > don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
> > you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I
> think
> > that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> > Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> > interested in why.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just my usual .02.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jeff
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk
> > <ma...@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:
> > tom@spicule.co.uk>> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk>
> > <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
> > about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay
> but
> > obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
> > never happened" didn't mention the language.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how
> > would non Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> > rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
> > <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> > <ma...@apache.org>>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org>
> > <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org
> > <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> >>>>>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > Adding members@
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> > <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> >>
> > <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> > <ma...@apache.org>>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org>
> > <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org
> > <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> >>>>>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that
> > consist
> > > > > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or
> > put it
> > > > > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must
> > be in
> > > > > > > English?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English,
> > as English
> > > > > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
> > software
> > > > > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of
> > proficiency when it
> > > > > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China
> is
> > much lower
> > > > > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to
> > learn English
> > > > > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will
> > also exclude
> > > > > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the
> number
> > of native
> > > > > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to
> 1
> > according
> > > > > > > to Wikipedia.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
> > countries,
> > > > > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Gunnar
> > > > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
> >
> >
>



-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>]

I actually take a different tack on that.

I answer questions everywhere and provide a pointer for other fora for
followups. It gives a friendlier feeling, improves searchability and still
encourages the mailing lists.

My experience is that simply not answering and pushing the OP to the lists
has a low success rate.

Another approach is to post the answer on the mailing lists and put a link
to that thread  on the non-Apache site. That's a bit friendlier, but I
don't think it is as good.



On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com>
wrote:

> I’m not sure that changes anything… that has been the nature of this since
> the beginning.
>
> For Apache… most happens on the mailing lists for very obvious reasons.
> Doing things outside tand not bringing them to the lists is frowned upon
> because it leaves the rest of the community in the dark.
>
> You see the challenges… they were explicitly discussed in this thread.
> English is unfortunately/fortunately the adaptor of communication to the
> world.  Thats not “western arrogance”.  Its a fact.  Someone has to be the
> mediator and english it is.
>
> If a community wants to extend across borders and get more non-localized
> input, then english will likely be the need.  If a project/PMC does not,
> care, then utilize your language de-jour with the understanding of the
> consequences.
>
> I don’t really see a solution beyond that.  I guess if you have an area
> where the devs discuss in another language and someone wants to translate
> it to english and bring it to the lists so others can be a part of it, I
> assume that would work.  But that seems like a lot of work to me.  Do you
> have a better solution?
>
> Jeff
>
>
> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > A few things...
> >
> > 1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates
> outside of "everything happens on mailing lists."
> > 2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those
> communities.
> > 3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to
> encourage this class of contributors to engage more with the worldwide
> community since they are a huge source of potential committers.
> > 4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English
> translators seem to work fine but not vice versa.
> >
> > So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building.
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <
> jgenender@savoirtech.com <ma...@savoirtech.com>> wrote:
> > and you got your answer…. what changes?
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com
> <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a
> question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using
> Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are
> part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions
> expressed by individuals.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <mailto:
> jgenender@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as
> it is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance.
> Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap)
> are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active
> users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
> > >
> > > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs
> reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose
> country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.
> > >
> > > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said,
> as I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my
> statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my
> argument was most *definitely* defensible.
> > >
> > > I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say
> that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to
> use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that
> the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
> > >
> > > For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on
> ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such
> as RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are
> in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your
> tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there
> are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to
> define on who your want your audience to be.
> > >
> > > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western
> “arrogance” because our main language is an international one.  But it’s
> not going to change your situation or position.
> > >
> > > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice,
> then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.
> What responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the
> members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If
> this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in
> attempting to answer you.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <
> jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:
> jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:
> jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:
> jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
> > > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> > > >
> > > > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
> doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.
> This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project
> when they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> > > >
> > > > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> interested in why.
> > > >
> > > > Just my usual .02.
> > > >
> > > > Jeff
> > > >
> > > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk
> <ma...@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:
> tom@spicule.co.uk>> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk>
> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk>>>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
> about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > > > >
> > > > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
> never happened" didn't mention the language.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how
> would non Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org>>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>
> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>>>
> wrote:
> > > > > Adding members@
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org>>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>
> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>>>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that
> consist
> > > > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or
> put it
> > > > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must
> be in
> > > > > > English?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English,
> as English
> > > > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
> software
> > > > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of
> proficiency when it
> > > > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
> much lower
> > > > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to
> learn English
> > > > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will
> also exclude
> > > > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number
> of native
> > > > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> according
> > > > > > to Wikipedia.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
> countries,
> > > > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
>
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com>]

I’m not sure that changes anything… that has been the nature of this since the beginning.

For Apache… most happens on the mailing lists for very obvious reasons.  Doing things outside tand not bringing them to the lists is frowned upon because it leaves the rest of the community in the dark.

You see the challenges… they were explicitly discussed in this thread.  English is unfortunately/fortunately the adaptor of communication to the world.  Thats not “western arrogance”.  Its a fact.  Someone has to be the mediator and english it is.

If a community wants to extend across borders and get more non-localized input, then english will likely be the need.  If a project/PMC does not, care, then utilize your language de-jour with the understanding of the consequences.  

I don’t really see a solution beyond that.  I guess if you have an area where the devs discuss in another language and someone wants to translate it to english and bring it to the lists so others can be a part of it, I assume that would work.  But that seems like a lot of work to me.  Do you have a better solution?

Jeff


> On Nov 11, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> A few things...
> 
> 1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates outside of "everything happens on mailing lists."
> 2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those communities.
> 3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to encourage this class of contributors to engage more with the worldwide community since they are a huge source of potential committers.
> 4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English translators seem to work fine but not vice versa.
> 
> So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building.
> 
> Gunnar 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@savoirtech.com <ma...@savoirtech.com>> wrote:
> and you got your answer…. what changes?
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions expressed by individuals.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> wrote:
> >
> > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance. Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap) are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
> >
> > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.
> >
> > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my argument was most *definitely* defensible.
> >
> > I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
> >
> > For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such as RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to define on who your want your audience to be.
> >
> > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western “arrogance” because our main language is an international one.  But it’s not going to change your situation or position.
> >
> > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice, then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.  What responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in attempting to answer you.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
> > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> > >
> > > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or, the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> > >
> > > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be interested in why.
> > >
> > > Just my usual .02.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk>> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk>>>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > > >
> > > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never happened" didn't mention the language.
> > > >
> > > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>>> wrote:
> > > > Adding members@
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> > > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> > > > > English?
> > > > >
> > > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as English
> > > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> > > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when it
> > > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much lower
> > > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn English
> > > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > > >
> > > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also exclude
> > > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of native
> > > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 according
> > > > > to Wikipedia.
> > > > >
> > > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gunnar
> If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>]

Regardless of the language being used, keeping discussions on-list can
be hard work. In practice it requires the core members of the
community to doggedly refuse to answer questions that are not asked in
the correct forum.

I can see how that doggedness might be perceived as rudeness. Total
speculation here (and apologies if I offend by making cultural
generalizations) but are some cultures less inclined to be "rude" and
force discussions onto lists?

By the way, I'll offer a data point that contradicts my hypothesis: I
mentored Apache Kylin, the majority of whose committers are in China,
and which has a large community in China, and I saw numerous occasions
where committers replied to emails written in Chinese and asked the
sender to use English.

Julian

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A few things...
>
> 1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates outside
> of "everything happens on mailing lists."
> 2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those
> communities.
> 3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to encourage
> this class of contributors to engage more with the worldwide community
> since they are a huge source of potential committers.
> 4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English
> translators seem to work fine but not vice versa.
>
> So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building.
>
> Gunnar
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com>
> wrote:
>
>> and you got your answer…. what changes?
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a
>> question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using
>> Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are
>> part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions
>> expressed by individuals.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Gunnar
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
>> > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it
>> is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance.
>> Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap)
>> are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active
>> users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
>> >
>> > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs
>> reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose
>> country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.
>> >
>> > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as
>> I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my
>> statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my
>> argument was most *definitely* defensible.
>> >
>> > I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say
>> that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to
>> use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that
>> the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
>> >
>> > For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on
>> ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such
>> as RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are
>> in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your
>> tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there
>> are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to
>> define on who your want your audience to be.
>> >
>> > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western “arrogance”
>> because our main language is an international one.  But it’s not going to
>> change your situation or position.
>> >
>> > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice,
>> then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.
>> What responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the
>> members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If
>> this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in
>> attempting to answer you.
>> >
>> > Jeff
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <mailto:
>> jgenender@apache.org>>> wrote:
>> > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most
>> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
>> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
>> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
>> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
>> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
>> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
>> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
>> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
>> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
>> > >
>> > > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
>> doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.
>> This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project
>> when they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
>> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
>> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
>> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
>> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
>> > >
>> > > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
>> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
>> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
>> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
>> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
>> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
>> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
>> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
>> interested in why.
>> > >
>> > > Just my usual .02.
>> > >
>> > > Jeff
>> > >
>> > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:
>> tom@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk>>>
>> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
>> about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
>> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
>> > > >
>> > > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
>> never happened" didn't mention the language.
>> > > >
>> > > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would
>> non Chinese speaking people follow development?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
>> > > > Adding members@
>> > > >
>> > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>> > > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put
>> it
>> > > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be
>> in
>> > > > > English?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
>> English
>> > > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
>> software
>> > > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
>> when it
>> > > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
>> much lower
>> > > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
>> English
>> > > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
>> exclude
>> > > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number
>> of native
>> > > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
>> according
>> > > > > to Wikipedia.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
>> countries,
>> > > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>> > > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Gunnar
>> > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

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Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>]

A few things...

1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates outside
of "everything happens on mailing lists."
2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those
communities.
3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to encourage
this class of contributors to engage more with the worldwide community
since they are a huge source of potential committers.
4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English
translators seem to work fine but not vice versa.

So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building.

Gunnar

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com>
wrote:

> and you got your answer…. what changes?
>
> Jeff
>
>
> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a
> question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using
> Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are
> part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions
> expressed by individuals.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> >
> > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it
> is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance.
> Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap)
> are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active
> users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
> >
> > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs
> reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose
> country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.
> >
> > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as
> I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my
> statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my
> argument was most *definitely* defensible.
> >
> > I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say
> that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to
> use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that
> the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
> >
> > For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on
> ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such
> as RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are
> in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your
> tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there
> are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to
> define on who your want your audience to be.
> >
> > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western “arrogance”
> because our main language is an international one.  But it’s not going to
> change your situation or position.
> >
> > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice,
> then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.
> What responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the
> members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If
> this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in
> attempting to answer you.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <mailto:
> jgenender@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> > >
> > > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
> doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.
> This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project
> when they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> > >
> > > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> interested in why.
> > >
> > > Just my usual .02.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:
> tom@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk>>>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
> about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > > >
> > > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
> never happened" didn't mention the language.
> > > >
> > > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would
> non Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
> > > > Adding members@
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put
> it
> > > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be
> in
> > > > > English?
> > > > >
> > > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> English
> > > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
> software
> > > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
> when it
> > > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
> much lower
> > > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> English
> > > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > > >
> > > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> exclude
> > > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number
> of native
> > > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> according
> > > > > to Wikipedia.
> > > > >
> > > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
> countries,
> > > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
>
>


-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com>]

and you got your answer…. what changes?

Jeff


> On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions expressed by individuals.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gunnar
> 
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> 
> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance. Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap) are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
> 
> The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.
> 
> I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my argument was most *definitely* defensible.
> 
> I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
> 
> For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such as RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to define on who your want your audience to be.
> 
> You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western “arrogance” because our main language is an international one.  But it’s not going to change your situation or position.
> 
> I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice, then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.  What responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in attempting to answer you.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > I would think that English is generally used because its the most international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> >
> > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or, the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> >
> > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be interested in why.
> >
> > Just my usual .02.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > >
> > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never happened" didn't mention the language.
> > >
> > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > >
> > >
> > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
> > > Adding members@
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> > > > English?
> > > >
> > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as English
> > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when it
> > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much lower
> > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn English
> > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > >
> > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also exclude
> > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of native
> > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 according
> > > > to Wikipedia.
> > > >
> > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gunnar
> If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>]

Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a
question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using
Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are
part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions
expressed by individuals.

Thanks,

Gunnar

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org> wrote:

>
> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it
> is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance.
> Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap)
> are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active
> users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
>
> The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs
> reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose
> country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.
>
> I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as I
> stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my
> statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my
> argument was most *definitely* defensible.
>
> I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say
> that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to
> use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that
> the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
>
> For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on ActiveMQ,
> and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such as
> RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are in
> Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your
> tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there
> are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to
> define on who your want your audience to be.
>
> You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western “arrogance”
> because our main language is an international one.  But it’s not going to
> change your situation or position.
>
> I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice, then
> getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.  What
> responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the
> members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If
> this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in
> attempting to answer you.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> > I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> >
> > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t
> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when
> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> >
> > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> interested in why.
> >
> > Just my usual .02.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:
> tom@spicule.co.uk>> wrote:
> > >
> > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
> about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > >
> > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
> happened" didn't mention the language.
> > >
> > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would
> non Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > >
> > >
> > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > Adding members@
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> > > > English?
> > > >
> > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> English
> > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
> when it
> > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
> much lower
> > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> English
> > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > >
> > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> exclude
> > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
> native
> > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> according
> > > > to Wikipedia.
> > > >
> > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > >
> >
> >
>
>


-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org>]

> On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
> I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance. Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap) are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.

The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.

I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my argument was most *definitely* defensible.

I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.

For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such as RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to define on who your want your audience to be.

You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western “arrogance” because our main language is an international one.  But it’s not going to change your situation or position.

I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice, then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.  What responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in attempting to answer you.

Jeff



> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> I would think that English is generally used because its the most international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> 
> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or, the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> 
> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be interested in why.
> 
> Just my usual .02.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk>> wrote:
> >
> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> >
> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never happened" didn't mention the language.
> >
> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non Chinese speaking people follow development?
> >
> >
> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > Adding members@
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> wrote:
> >
> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> > > English?
> > >
> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as English
> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when it
> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much lower
> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn English
> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > >
> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also exclude
> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of native
> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 according
> > > to Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > >
> 
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Stian Soiland-Reyes <st...@apache.org>]

I think we should separate language barriers for dev@ (a channel for all
its developers to agree on what the project is doing) and users@, which
could be much more diverse, but follow more of a Questions and Answer
format.

It's clear that in the Apache Way, the dev@ list should use a language that
all developers can follow (directly or indirectly via translators);
otherwise you will form sub-communities which may not agree on the
direction on the project.

Sometimes it might make sense to do dual-language posting, e.g. include the
message text in both Chinese and English. Yes, it is more work, but perhaps
some project need a more "UN" approach with many languages, to not be too
exclusive to a large potential dev base.

But I don't see a problem with language-specific *users* lists under ASF,
e.g rocketmq-用户列表@apache.org ("users list" ?), some projects like
OpenOffice use such lists for translation and localisation effort.

Also I think it's good for an ASF project committers to join third-party
user engagements where they happen anyway, like on StackOverflow, Gitter,
BioStars and regional equivalents, as long as they are public and don't
require payment; (but we would need to be careful about how we link to
those).

It it however important that any project development (including bug
reports) are brought back into the official Apache dev list, issue tracker
etc; where it would need to include an English summary/translation, with a
link or quote of the original discussion.

If say QQ don't allow you to catch up with what happened earlier (like on
Gitter) then perhaps some effort is needed to set up a bot with logging,
like we already have for the oldie IRC channels for Apache projects.

On 11 Nov 2016 7:43 am, "Reynold Xin" <rx...@apache.org> wrote:

> Background: I have no tie to RocketMQ. I didn't even know about it until
> today and I don't know any of the people associated with the project. I am
> Chinese but living in the US. I'm purely playing devil's advocate about a
> meta-point here and don't know if it applies to RocketMQ or not.
>
> I definitely agree with Jeff's point that "my thoughts about community
> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible".
>
> That said, for a project started in China, it is unclear switching the
> primary development language from Chinese to English would help with
> accomplishing that goal. While lowering the bar for non-Chinese speakers to
> participate, it will limit the efficacy of its original developers, and
> increases the bar for more Chinese developers, which are the more natural,
> immediate expansion targets for the community.
>
> If we as a community want to enforce the usage of English as the standard,
> we should just explicitly say that.
>
> I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it is
> not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance. Afterall,
> three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap) are
> currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active users
> even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> > international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
> > it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
> > you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross
> borders
> > or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell
> you
> > that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> > problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> > Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
> > from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you
> want
> > your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> >
> > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t
> > speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
> > means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project
> when
> > they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> > problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
> > unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC
> or,
> > the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> > insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> >
> > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> > language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
> > that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
> > would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
> > don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
> > you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I
> think
> > that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> > Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> > interested in why.
> >
> > Just my usual .02.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <to...@spicule.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about
> > diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> > obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > >
> > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
> > happened" didn't mention the language.
> > >
> > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non
> > Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > >
> > >
> > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> > rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> > > Adding members@
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> <mailto:
> > rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> > > > English?
> > > >
> > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> > English
> > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
> > when it
> > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
> > lower
> > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> > English
> > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > >
> > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> > exclude
> > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
> > native
> > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> > according
> > > > to Wikipedia.
> > > >
> > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > >
> >
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org>]

Background: I have no tie to RocketMQ. I didn't even know about it until
today and I don't know any of the people associated with the project. I am
Chinese but living in the US. I'm purely playing devil's advocate about a
meta-point here and don't know if it applies to RocketMQ or not.

I definitely agree with Jeff's point that "my thoughts about community
would be getting as many people and users involved as possible".

That said, for a project started in China, it is unclear switching the
primary development language from Chinese to English would help with
accomplishing that goal. While lowering the bar for non-Chinese speakers to
participate, it will limit the efficacy of its original developers, and
increases the bar for more Chinese developers, which are the more natural,
immediate expansion targets for the community.

If we as a community want to enforce the usage of English as the standard,
we should just explicitly say that.

I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it is
not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance. Afterall,
three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap) are
currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active users
even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.


On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org>
wrote:

> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
>
> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t
> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when
> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
>
> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> interested in why.
>
> Just my usual .02.
>
> Jeff
>
> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <to...@spicule.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about
> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> >
> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
> happened" didn't mention the language.
> >
> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non
> Chinese speaking people follow development?
> >
> >
> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> > Adding members@
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> >
> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> > > English?
> > >
> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> English
> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
> when it
> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
> lower
> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> English
> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > >
> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> exclude
> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
> native
> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> according
> > > to Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > >
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Reynold Xin <rx...@databricks.com>]

Hi Niclas,

The thing about archiving is a great point and I agree with you that it is
important to have archives that survive technologies disruptions, and
mailing lists are unparalleled there. The main thing I see here is that we
would want to be inclusive and bring discussions back to archives, either
through automatic means or manual means. It is not always an argument to
reject "newer tech". For any technology we choose, we need to be extremely
careful with data lock-in and mitigate the risks when the technology
disappears.

Also absolutely agree that there is a big difference between dev@ and user@.


Jeff - I understand why it was a shock to you when I mentioned "wechat" and
why you would draw parallel to snapchat.

I personally don't get why people would use wechat for serious business,
since it is painful to type on a mobile phone, but it is very common in
China. Dozens of Apache projects have wechat groups (mostly by users of
those projects and not by PMCs or committers, with some projects having
multiple groups with thousands of users).



On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 2:32 PM, Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com>
wrote:

>
> > On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:57 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > "a better global way to A) communicate across a medium that everyone
> uses daily B) archive to search and come back to"
> >
> > How would we even validate or decide that? For discussions like this it
> is very easy to fall into confirmation bias.
>
> How?   Dunno… maybe about 17 years of historical data from Apache?  This
> one is pretty easy to “confirm”, no?
>
> >
> > I use mailing lists all the time since it is the Apache Way, but I also
> admit there are potentially better ways for other projects. People that are
> used to mailing lists might think mailing lists are the best thing in the
> world, but the reality is that majority of the developers in this world,
> outside a few core open source projects, have never used mailing lists. If
> we talk to the QQ/Wechat/web-based-forum generation in China and force them
> to use mailing lists, they might comply because it is the Apache Way, but
> they will also develop the sentiment that the ASF refuses to change and
> adapt newer technologies.
>
> Wechat?  Really?  Lets throw in Snapchat too while we are at it so there
> is no footprint for that discussion.  Seriously?  Reynold, is this really
> coming from you of all people?
>
> This project wanted to come to Apache, right?  Did they (or other Chinese
> projects) not look at the way things are done and all of a sudden have an
> issue with it?  I’m just sayin’… there shouldn’t be surprises here, right?
>
> Jeff
>
>
> >
> > And to be honest, while I think mailing lists are great for simple
> voting and information dissemination, there are obvious downsides of
> mailing lists too. That's why a lot of projects also augment mailing lists
> via video discussions, google docs for commenting, wiki, etc.
> >
> > In reality, there are also legal reasons why we use mailing lists, and
> those are not as well known. We should document those and make them more
> visible too.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> > > On Nov 13, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com
> <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > As mentioned, the Apache Way is that "everything happens on the
> mailing lists." As a matter of fact, key parts of being an incubator is to
> learn how to operate per the Apache Way and to build communities. We even
> include statistics about mailing list engagement as an indicator of
> community building.
> > >
> >
> > Gunnar, I’m going to give you a big -1 to this.
> >
> > Unless you can come up with a better global way to A) communicate across
> a medium that everyone uses daily B) archive to search and come back to, I
> am in full disagreement.  Since I have been with Apache (about 14 years), I
> have yet to find a better medium than the lists, and its always been a
> known fact that ultimately, any non-mail list discussions that result in
> some form of a decision are brought to the mail lists for global discussion.
> >
> > Our mail lists are indexed by Google and others.  Its easy to find what
> one looks for.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
>
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com>]

> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:57 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> "a better global way to A) communicate across a medium that everyone uses daily B) archive to search and come back to"
> 
> How would we even validate or decide that? For discussions like this it is very easy to fall into confirmation bias. 

How?   Dunno… maybe about 17 years of historical data from Apache?  This one is pretty easy to “confirm”, no?

> 
> I use mailing lists all the time since it is the Apache Way, but I also admit there are potentially better ways for other projects. People that are used to mailing lists might think mailing lists are the best thing in the world, but the reality is that majority of the developers in this world, outside a few core open source projects, have never used mailing lists. If we talk to the QQ/Wechat/web-based-forum generation in China and force them to use mailing lists, they might comply because it is the Apache Way, but they will also develop the sentiment that the ASF refuses to change and adapt newer technologies.

Wechat?  Really?  Lets throw in Snapchat too while we are at it so there is no footprint for that discussion.  Seriously?  Reynold, is this really coming from you of all people?

This project wanted to come to Apache, right?  Did they (or other Chinese projects) not look at the way things are done and all of a sudden have an issue with it?  I’m just sayin’… there shouldn’t be surprises here, right?

Jeff


> 
> And to be honest, while I think mailing lists are great for simple voting and information dissemination, there are obvious downsides of mailing lists too. That's why a lot of projects also augment mailing lists via video discussions, google docs for commenting, wiki, etc.
> 
> In reality, there are also legal reasons why we use mailing lists, and those are not as well known. We should document those and make them more visible too.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> > On Nov 13, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > As mentioned, the Apache Way is that "everything happens on the mailing lists." As a matter of fact, key parts of being an incubator is to learn how to operate per the Apache Way and to build communities. We even include statistics about mailing list engagement as an indicator of community building.
> >
> 
> Gunnar, I’m going to give you a big -1 to this.
> 
> Unless you can come up with a better global way to A) communicate across a medium that everyone uses daily B) archive to search and come back to, I am in full disagreement.  Since I have been with Apache (about 14 years), I have yet to find a better medium than the lists, and its always been a known fact that ultimately, any non-mail list discussions that result in some form of a decision are brought to the mail lists for global discussion.
> 
> Our mail lists are indexed by Google and others.  Its easy to find what one looks for.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>]

Reynold,
I can recall the "newer technologies" argument since the inception[1] of
ASF, and not a single one of these "newer technologies" has stood the test
of time, and it is likely that the current "newer technologies" will
eventually fall out of favor too, because of newer "newer technologies".

Now, all of that said, I think that it is important to divide this
discussion into 2 very distinct cases. The Gradle community has realized
that and run the "user lists" as a web forum and the "dev list" as a
traditional mailing list. Such choice is probably within reason at ASF too,
although if you ask around a bit, you will probably find that experience
community members will participate a lot less on web forums than on mailing
lists, because it is more inconvenient (filtering, tagging is not as
powerful). An arrangement like Google Groups, where both the web forum and
the mailing list is merge into one is probably better, and if you feel
strongly about this, then please help out PonyMail project, which drives
http://lists.apache.org which is getting closer and closer to this hybrid.

Cheers
Niclas

[1] Believe it or not, I was involved with Apache group way before Jeff
was, and back then projects didn't even have in-house mailing lists, but
utilized outside companies' "gracious help", but these companies have
ceased to exist and some of the early mails are lost forever, as there were
no archiving and not all lists could be salvaged in their entirety. This
was a painful reminder to not depend on external services, that may
disappear over night, even if they seem bigger and better than Swiss army
knives.


On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 5:57 AM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:

> "a better global way to A) communicate across a medium that everyone uses
> daily B) archive to search and come back to"
>
> How would we even validate or decide that? For discussions like this it is
> very easy to fall into confirmation bias.
>
> I use mailing lists all the time since it is the Apache Way, but I also
> admit there are potentially better ways for other projects. People that are
> used to mailing lists might think mailing lists are the best thing in the
> world, but the reality is that majority of the developers in this world,
> outside a few core open source projects, have never used mailing lists. If
> we talk to the QQ/Wechat/web-based-forum generation in China and force them
> to use mailing lists, they might comply because it is the Apache Way, but
> they will also develop the sentiment that the ASF refuses to change and
> adapt newer technologies.
>
> And to be honest, while I think mailing lists are great for simple voting
> and information dissemination, there are obvious downsides of mailing lists
> too. That's why a lot of projects also augment mailing lists via video
> discussions, google docs for commenting, wiki, etc.
>
> In reality, there are also legal reasons why we use mailing lists, and
> those are not as well known. We should document those and make them more
> visible too.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 13, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > As mentioned, the Apache Way is that "everything happens on the mailing
> > lists." As a matter of fact, key parts of being an incubator is to learn
> > how to operate per the Apache Way and to build communities. We even
> include
> > statistics about mailing list engagement as an indicator of community
> > building.
> > >
> >
> > Gunnar, I’m going to give you a big -1 to this.
> >
> > Unless you can come up with a better global way to A) communicate across
> a
> > medium that everyone uses daily B) archive to search and come back to, I
> am
> > in full disagreement.  Since I have been with Apache (about 14 years), I
> > have yet to find a better medium than the lists, and its always been a
> > known fact that ultimately, any non-mail list discussions that result in
> > some form of a decision are brought to the mail lists for global
> discussion.
> >
> > Our mail lists are indexed by Google and others.  Its easy to find what
> > one looks for.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
>



-- 
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org>]

"a better global way to A) communicate across a medium that everyone uses
daily B) archive to search and come back to"

How would we even validate or decide that? For discussions like this it is
very easy to fall into confirmation bias.

I use mailing lists all the time since it is the Apache Way, but I also
admit there are potentially better ways for other projects. People that are
used to mailing lists might think mailing lists are the best thing in the
world, but the reality is that majority of the developers in this world,
outside a few core open source projects, have never used mailing lists. If
we talk to the QQ/Wechat/web-based-forum generation in China and force them
to use mailing lists, they might comply because it is the Apache Way, but
they will also develop the sentiment that the ASF refuses to change and
adapt newer technologies.

And to be honest, while I think mailing lists are great for simple voting
and information dissemination, there are obvious downsides of mailing lists
too. That's why a lot of projects also augment mailing lists via video
discussions, google docs for commenting, wiki, etc.

In reality, there are also legal reasons why we use mailing lists, and
those are not as well known. We should document those and make them more
visible too.



On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org>
wrote:

> > On Nov 13, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > As mentioned, the Apache Way is that "everything happens on the mailing
> lists." As a matter of fact, key parts of being an incubator is to learn
> how to operate per the Apache Way and to build communities. We even include
> statistics about mailing list engagement as an indicator of community
> building.
> >
>
> Gunnar, I’m going to give you a big -1 to this.
>
> Unless you can come up with a better global way to A) communicate across a
> medium that everyone uses daily B) archive to search and come back to, I am
> in full disagreement.  Since I have been with Apache (about 14 years), I
> have yet to find a better medium than the lists, and its always been a
> known fact that ultimately, any non-mail list discussions that result in
> some form of a decision are brought to the mail lists for global discussion.
>
> Our mail lists are indexed by Google and others.  Its easy to find what
> one looks for.
>
> Jeff
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Jeff Genender <jg...@savoirtech.com>]

> On Nov 13, 2016, at 6:03 PM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Jeff,
> 
> I guess you misunderstood what I am raising for discussion. I'm not arguing against e-mail lists. I prefer them or we'd not have this discussion, right? As a matter of fact, my projects at my previous employer adopted an "everything happens on e-mail" to deal with timezone differences and hive mind building. So, no need to convince me on the benefit of the technology and why.
> 
> What I AM pointing to is that I'm experiencing groups that aren't comfortable with interacting using e-mail quoting language and slowness as barriers. Let's accept that as a fact for the sake of discussion. Do we ignore that class of community because they're not operating the right way or do we find ways to interact/lower barriers/whatever makes sense?

No … we don't ignore it as we never thought it “bad”.  We say as long as those private discussions come to the list for more open discussion, then most are ok with it.  I have discussions all the time over IRC, Slack, etc, because I do prefer the more interactive quick communication.  But I ultimately bring those discussions always to the mail list to get input from the rest of the communities that I am involved in.

Jeff



> 
> Again, this is a generic discussion, not a project-specific discussion.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gunnar
> 
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> 
> > On Nov 13, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > As mentioned, the Apache Way is that "everything happens on the mailing lists." As a matter of fact, key parts of being an incubator is to learn how to operate per the Apache Way and to build communities. We even include statistics about mailing list engagement as an indicator of community building.
> >
> 
> Gunnar, I’m going to give you a big -1 to this.
> 
> Unless you can come up with a better global way to A) communicate across a medium that everyone uses daily B) archive to search and come back to, I am in full disagreement.  Since I have been with Apache (about 14 years), I have yet to find a better medium than the lists, and its always been a known fact that ultimately, any non-mail list discussions that result in some form of a decision are brought to the mail lists for global discussion.
> 
> Our mail lists are indexed by Google and others.  Its easy to find what one looks for.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> > The struggle I'm referring is that we're seeing a reluctance to participate in the main Apache communication methods: email. Clearly, we can try to get statistics from the different forums you and I have mentioned but that's really just collecting data points.
> >
> > How can you help? Well, how to we get more people from China (or other companies) to engage with the mailing lists or vice versa? I'm imagining jumping on the QQ group and must admit to be very apprehensive on doing so. It's not an easy thing to get over.
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 7:16 AM, Luke Han <luke.hq@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:luke.hq@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> > Hi Gunnar,
> >
> > > Given your statistics, I think there is:
> > > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when there's
> > > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> > > invisible to the rest of us.
> >
> >      I think maybe I'm not bring message so clearly, let me try again:
> >      Such account is not a GROUP, it's something like twitter account which
> > has 20k followers where the author sharing experiences, samples and
> > anything else...to help to educate users, help to grow up local
> > communities. I have to say, such account helped a lot for ASF projects'
> > adoption in China. Back to QQ group, something like Google Group which
> > everybody could create in seconds.
> >
> >      Is that Trafodion QQ group created and managed by Trafodion PMC or
> > someone else? Did your PMCs make decision over there, or just users who
> > asking questions over there? If "it's invisible to the rest of us" means
> > decision has been made by your PMCs in QQ group but not in mailing
> > list...that's really problem and you have to raise to PPMC/IPMC.
> >
> >      But if it's about user group, there are many local communities
> > everywhere for sure using different languages, in Chinese, in Spanish, in
> > Japanese...could we know everything from there? For example, did Hadoop
> > report include activities from Hortonworks/Cloudera hosted forum, twitter
> > accounts or Facebook pages "like" number or any other online forums/groups?
> > They are really user communities too.
> >
> >       I just shared my experience with you in last reply about how we
> > handle that...hope it could help you to understand what you could do. And
> > also brought some facts how user communities formed, operated and what we
> > have did. And brought some data from different Apache projects, obviously
> > it's not "an Apache-wide issue that needs to be addressed".
> >
> >       I'm not argue with you about "Which language is better" or "mailing
> > list vs QQ/Google Group", I just want to help you to figure the root cause
> > of your original "struggle" problem.
> >
> >       But I'm not very agree with you raised such discussion after a new
> > incubator project proposal (and just changed the subject name)...looks like
> > we are really not friendly to new comers especially from a different, non
> > native English speaking (actually most of talent engineers are well
> > educated with English in China) and different culture world...the team is
> > so "scary" and asked us many times like "will they cancel the vote? do they
> > really welcome our project?..." when they saw this thread?
> >
> >       And, let's focus on your really issue, maybe we could help you:)
> >
> >       Thanks.
> >
> > Luke
> >
> >
> >
> > Best Regards!
> > ---------------------
> >
> > Luke Han
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Luke:
> > >
> > > This question was originally asked on the incubator list. The members list
> > > was added somewhere on the line.
> > >
> > > Part of the incubator challenge is to show community growth. In the past, a
> > > good metric seems to have been to check interaction on the mailing lists;
> > > for example, on the user list.
> > >
> > > As you note, China changes this equation forming communities on QQ, WeChat,
> > > and other places I'm probably not aware of. This means that there can be a
> > > thriving user community that the PMC may or may not be aware of. So, how to
> > > we assess community involvement that bypass the Apache "everything happens
> > > on the mailing lists" principle?
> > >
> > > Like you noted, it's easy to translate questions and respond to questions
> > > in English. The Trafodion project does that, no problems. But, most of the
> > > discussion in China happen on the alternative forums with the project's
> > > Chinese speakers contributors participating. So, for Trafodion
> > > specifically, I can ask those contributors to provide participation
> > > statistics so that I can include the information in the next report.
> > >
> > > However, I was trying to figure out whether there's an Apache-wide issue
> > > that needs to be addressed. Given your statistics, I think there is:
> > > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when there's
> > > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> > > invisible to the rest of us.
> > >
> > > So, let's think about this from a community building perspective. The
> > > traditional way of mailing lists is now being augmented by WeChat, QQ, etc.
> > > in an organic fashion. I'd argue that you don't want to police organic
> > > growth but rather embrace it so that you can get insights into what's going
> > > on.
> > >
> > > Assuming that people agree that it's important to bridge the communities,
> > > I'd start with something simple: how can we find out what communities exist
> > > in the different Chinese forums, membership, and activity. Shy of learning
> > > Chinese that is. :)
> > >
> > > My next question is: how can we help those communities? What would make
> > > Apache usage grow even more? For Trafodion, I simply pointed to the QQ
> > > group but that seems way too little...
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Luke Han <luke.hq@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:luke.hq@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means
> > > > > to communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about
> > > it.
> > > > So, I
> > > > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
> > > > that
> > > > > others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe that
> > > was
> > > > > the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than shut
> > > > it > down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> > > >
> > > > And for "invisible to the project", are you talking about PMCs or Users?
> > > > That's totally different arguments.
> > > >
> > > > Would like to share our experience which may help to bring some ideas for
> > > > you. At the beginning, there were many people came to Kylin mailing list
> > > > and
> > > > asked questions in Chinese, but our PMC (most of them are Chinese too)
> > > had
> > > > tried their best to help to translate to English, again and again. And we
> > > > tried to convince people who we knew to ask question in English. And we
> > > > have a
> > > > simple rule for our PMCs to answer question in English no matter which
> > > > Language
> > > > of the question.
> > > > Not easy for everybody, but finally it works. The point is your PMCs
> > > should
> > > > keep discussion in mailing list, in English.  And then to influent others
> > > > who
> > > > want to participate, contribute and use this open source project.
> > > >
> > > > Why English?
> > > > It's only way to cross board for global adoption.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, from user perspective, they really would like to learn
> > > > and
> > > > try new technology with their native language so that they could
> > > understand
> > > > quickly and deeply, people may give up if their English is not good
> > > enough
> > > > at that time...then they asking question in their native Language is the
> > > > right
> > > > thing they should to do to get help.
> > > >
> > > > For projects coming from non-English developer community, the native
> > > > language is the best one to attract local users and fans, then
> > > developers.
> > > > We
> > > > shouldn't force "users" how to communicate between them, actually nothing
> > > > we can do. For example, there's QQ group for Kylin which is very active
> > > who
> > > > are discussing and exchanging ideas over there. What can we do? Try to
> > > > leading discussion to mailing list and never answer detail question there
> > > > but
> > > > will do in mailing list. But that's not said people will coming to
> > > mailing
> > > > list
> > > > because they already could help each other.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, most of Apache projects have QQ or WeChat group(s) in China.
> > > > For example, there are hundreds Spark groups each one has 500 people and
> > > > more in QQ groups.
> > > >
> > > > One more reference, I just got to know today there's one popular Hadoop
> > > > WeChat Official Account ("official account' is WeChat's product,
> > > something
> > > > like channel/blog...) who has 20,000 subscribers. And it's just one of
> > > such
> > > > accounts...
> > > >
> > > > Then my question is are PPMCs willing to engage them?
> > > >
> > > > Why Chinese?
> > > > To engage the biggest developer community of the world, no matter where's
> > > > project coming from.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards!
> > > > ---------------------
> > > >
> > > > Luke Han
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps it would be a good idea to separate user lists from other
> > > lists?
> > > > I
> > > > > was specifically referring to users wanting to ask questions and to get
> > > > > help. The support side if you will.
> > > > >
> > > > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means
> > > to
> > > > > communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it.
> > > > So, I
> > > > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
> > > > > that others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe
> > > > that
> > > > > was the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than
> > > > shut
> > > > > it down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> > > > >
> > > > > As mention, I prefer to use e-mail lists but it seems that users aren't
> > > > > comfortable with that. I'm hoping that people in China can help
> > > identify
> > > > > what would work for those users.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have similar issues with documentation but I'll open a separate
> > > > > discussion thread on that topic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Gunnar
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> > > > >> international language, not because its the most used in the world.
> > > > Thus
> > > > >> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I
> > > > think
> > > > >> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross
> > > > borders
> > > > >> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can
> > > tell
> > > > you
> > > > >> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> > > > >> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> > > > >> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the
> > > > discussion
> > > > >> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you
> > > > want
> > > > >> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
> > > doesn’t
> > > > >> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
> > > > >> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project
> > > > when
> > > > >> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> > > > >> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In
> > > > the
> > > > >> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC
> > > > or,
> > > > >> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> > > > >> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> > > > >> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02
> > > is
> > > > >> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about
> > > community
> > > > >> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If
> > > you
> > > > >> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe
> > > > that
> > > > >> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I
> > > > think
> > > > >> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> > > > >> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> > > > >> interested in why.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Just my usual .02.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Jeff
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk>>> wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
> > > > about
> > > > >> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> > > > >> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
> > > never
> > > > >> happened" didn't mention the language.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would
> > > > non
> > > > >> Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> <mailto:
> > > > >> rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
> > > > >> > Adding members@
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
> > > > <mailto:
> > > > >> rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that
> > > consist
> > > > >> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put
> > > it
> > > > >> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be
> > > > in
> > > > >> > > English?
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> > > > >> English
> > > > >> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
> > > software
> > > > >> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
> > > > >> when it
> > > > >> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
> > > > much
> > > > >> lower
> > > > >> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> > > > >> English
> > > > >> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> > > > >> exclude
> > > > >> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number
> > > of
> > > > >> native
> > > > >> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> > > > >> according
> > > > >> > > to Wikipedia.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
> > > countries,
> > > > >> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:lukehan@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
> > > > >> <mailto:lukehan@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:lukehan@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>>> wrote:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> Hi Gunnar,
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe
> > > > not
> > > > >> > >> real,
> > > > >> > >> but just
> > > > >> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all
> > > contributions
> > > > >> from
> > > > >> > >> China,
> > > > >> > >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese
> > > > and
> > > > >> LABEL
> > > > >> > >> for such
> > > > >> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
> > > > >> "issue" to
> > > > >> > >> describe like
> > > > >> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution
> > > or
> > > > >> > >> others...
> > > > >> > >> that's not right way.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> > > > >> > >> contributing to
> > > > >> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very
> > > much,
> > > > >> > >> involved
> > > > >> > >> in many
> > > > >> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31
> > > days
> > > > >> > >> mailing
> > > > >> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org <http://lists.apache.org/> <http://lists.apache.org/ <http://lists.apache.org/>> <http://lists.apache.org/ <http://lists.apache.org/> <http://lists.apache.org/ <http://lists.apache.org/>>>
> > > > [1]:
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> > > > >> > >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> > > > >> > >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> > > > >> > >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> > > > >> > >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> > > > >> > >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> > > > >> > >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these
> > > projects,
> > > > >> you
> > > > >> > >> could check
> > > > >> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
> > > > >> list.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a
> > > > way
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> > >> access
> > > > >> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
> > > > >> speakers,
> > > > >> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the
> > > Apache
> > > > >> Way.
> > > > >> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> > > > >> > >> community, and try
> > > > >> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> > > > >> patience
> > > > >> > >> for
> > > > >> > >> those new comers.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> > > > >> journey,
> > > > >> > >> our experience
> > > > >> > >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> > > > >> > >> challenges...through
> > > > >> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also
> > > helping
> > > > >> many
> > > > >> > >> potential projects
> > > > >> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> > > > >> > >> Trafodion
> > > > >> > >> community"
> > > > >> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
> > > > >> Trafodion
> > > > >> > >> PMC
> > > > >> > >> know
> > > > >> > >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
> > > > >> articles,
> > > > >> > >> session recordings and
> > > > >> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> > > > >> > >> discussion
> > > > >> > >> if necessary:-)
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/> <https://lists.apache.org/ <https://lists.apache.org/>> <https://lists.apache.org/ <https://lists.apache.org/> <https://lists.apache.org/ <https://lists.apache.org/>>>  <
> > > > >> https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/> <https://lists.apache.org/ <https://lists.apache.org/>> <https://lists.apache.org/ <https://lists.apache.org/> <https://lists.apache.org/ <https://lists.apache.org/>>>>
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> > > > >> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>>>
> > > > >> > >> wrote:
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> > Hi,
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of
> > > > contribution
> > > > >> from
> > > > >> > >> > China.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't
> > > > that
> > > > >> > >> active
> > > > >> > >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ
> > > communicating
> > > > in
> > > > >> > >> > Chinese.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's
> > > hard
> > > > >> not to
> > > > >> > >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
> > > > >> questions etc
> > > > >> > >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
> > > > >> forward,
> > > > >> > >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that
> > > > members
> > > > >> in
> > > > >> > >> China
> > > > >> > >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication
> > > > >> issues like
> > > > >> > >> > this.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Thanks,
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Gunnar
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <
> > > > >> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <ma...@microsoft.com> <mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <ma...@microsoft.com>> <mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <ma...@microsoft.com> <mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <ma...@microsoft.com>>>>
> > > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a
> > > couple
> > > > of
> > > > >> > >> years
> > > > >> > >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open
> > > > >> source
> > > > >> > >> beyond
> > > > >> > >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding
> > > > >> trip to
> > > > >> > >> > China.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I
> > > talked
> > > > >> to. We
> > > > >> > >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
> > > > >> involved
> > > > >> > >> with
> > > > >> > >> > this proposal.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this
> > > > project
> > > > >> and
> > > > >> > >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation.
> > > We
> > > > >> will
> > > > >> > >> need
> > > > >> > >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other
> > > China
> > > > >> born
> > > > >> > >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that
> > > we
> > > > >> need
> > > > >> > >> to
> > > > >> > >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
> > > > >> foundation
> > > > >> > >> and as
> > > > >> > >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having
> > > > met
> > > > >> some
> > > > >> > >> of
> > > > >> > >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors
> > > the
> > > > >> > >> project
> > > > >> > >> > can succeed.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Ross
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > ---
> > > > >> > >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > ________________________________
> > > > >> > >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> <mailto:
> > > > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>>>
> > > > >> > >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> > > > >> > >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org> <mailto:general@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>> <mailto:
> > > general@incubator.apac
> > > > >> he.org <http://he.org/> <http://he.org/ <http://he.org/>>>
> > > > >> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Hi John,
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> > > > >> constructive
> > > > >> > >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and
> > > > >> project
> > > > >> > >> using
> > > > >> > >> > your suggestions.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
> > > > >> Gosling,
> > > > >> > >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the
> > > > >> Github
> > > > >> > >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity'
> > > the
> > > > >> history
> > > > >> > >> > was
> > > > >> > >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's
> > > > >> git-fu
> > > > >> > >> went
> > > > >> > >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed.
> > > Von
> > > > >> also
> > > > >> > >> gives
> > > > >> > >> > further explanation of the project history in a response below.
> > > > >> Indeed,
> > > > >> > >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before
> > > > >> with
> > > > >> > >> git),
> > > > >> > >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to
> > > > >> improve
> > > > >> > >> and
> > > > >> > >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising,
> > > > since
> > > > >> > >> Bruce is
> > > > >> > >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF
> > > > >> exist
> > > > >> > >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
> > > > >> mentors,
> > > > >> > >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
> > > > >> interest in
> > > > >> > >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest
> > > in
> > > > >> > >> continuing
> > > > >> > >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15
> > > years
> > > > >> > >> experience
> > > > >> > >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project
> > > > >> over
> > > > >> > >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> > > > >> > >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a
> > > > >> community of
> > > > >> > >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The
> > > > ASF
> > > > >> is an
> > > > >> > >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from
> > > > new
> > > > >> > >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and
> > > > >> stay for
> > > > >> > >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new
> > > > >> project and
> > > > >> > >> > people to the ASF.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> > > > >> > >> suggestions
> > > > >> > >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
> > > > >> proposal.
> > > > >> > >> Even
> > > > >> > >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also
> > > be
> > > > >> great
> > > > >> > >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project
> > > > moving
> > > > >> > >> forward.
> > > > >> > >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects
> > > you
> > > > >> > >> mentioned
> > > > >> > >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
> > > > >> RocketMQ
> > > > >> > >> code
> > > > >> > >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by
> > > John
> > > > >> with
> > > > >> > >> his
> > > > >> > >> > thoughts:
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
> > > > >> questions
> > > > >> > >> > specifically:
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > > > >> communities
> > > > >> > >> to
> > > > >> > >> > build cross platform clients?
> > > > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> > > > >> backend
> > > > >> > >> > persistence stores?
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Bruce
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
> > > > >> john.d.ament@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:john.d.ament@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> <mailto:john.d.ament@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:john.d.ament@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>>>
> > > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> > > > >> roman@shaposhnik.org <ma...@shaposhnik.org> <mailto:roman@shaposhnik.org <ma...@shaposhnik.org>> <mailto:roman@shaposhnik.org <ma...@shaposhnik.org> <mailto:roman@shaposhnik.org <ma...@shaposhnik.org>>>
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly
> > > > concerned
> > > > >> > >> about:
> > > > >> > >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>> <
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>>>
> > > > >> > >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> > > > >> > >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>> <
> > > > >> http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>>%
> > > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> > > > >> > >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge
> > > blobs
> > > > >> of
> > > > >> > >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
> > > > >> committers
> > > > >> > >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot
> > > of
> > > > >> time
> > > > >> > >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
> > > > >> prevails.
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the
> > > statement:
> > > > >> > >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > > > >> > >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as
> > > well.
> > > > >> I
> > > > >> > >> > suspect
> > > > >> > >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source
> > > development
> > > > >> on the
> > > > >> > >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other
> > > apache
> > > > >> > >> products"
> > > > >> > >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
> > > > >> competes
> > > > >> > >> with
> > > > >> > >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the
> > > > >> chair of
> > > > >> > >> one
> > > > >> > >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has
> > > synergies
> > > > >> with
> > > > >> > >> the
> > > > >> > >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects
> > > > >> today in
> > > > >> > >> > their
> > > > >> > >> > > code base.
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > > > >> > >> communities
> > > > >> > >> > to
> > > > >> > >> > > build cross platform clients?
> > > > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby
> > > as
> > > > >> backend
> > > > >> > >> > > persistence stores?
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > etc..
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > Thanks,
> > > > >> > >> > > > Roman.
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> > > > >> > >> brianm@skife.org <ma...@skife.org> <mailto:brianm@skife.org <ma...@skife.org>> <mailto:brianm@skife.org <ma...@skife.org> <mailto:brianm@skife.org <ma...@skife.org>>>>
> > > > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> > > > > +1 !
> > > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <
> > > > >> jim@jagunet.com <ma...@jagunet.com> <mailto:jim@jagunet.com <ma...@jagunet.com>> <mailto:jim@jagunet.com <ma...@jagunet.com> <mailto:jim@jagunet.com <ma...@jagunet.com>>>>
> > > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> Cool.
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> +1
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> > > > >> > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> <mailto:bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>>>
> > > > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator
> > > podling
> > > > >> named
> > > > >> > >> > > Apache
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> > > > >> distributed,
> > > > >> > >> > easy
> > > > >> > >> > > > to
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> use
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing
> > > > >> large
> > > > >> > >> > amounts
> > > > >> > >> > > > of
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the
> > > > >> following
> > > > >> > >> URL:
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protect <https://na01.safelinks.protect/> <https://na01.safelinks.protect/ <https://na01.safelinks.protect/>>
> > > > >> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <http://ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%> <http://ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <http://ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%>> <https://na01.safelinks.protec <https://na01.safelinks.protec/> <https://na01.safelinks.protec/ <https://na01.safelinks.protec/>>
> > > > >> tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <http://tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%> <http://tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <http://tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%>>>
> > > > >> > >> 2F%
> > > > >> > >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/> <http://2fwiki.apache.org/ <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>> <http://2fwiki.apache.org/ <http://2fwiki.apache.org/> <http://2fwiki.apache.org/ <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>>>%2F
> > > > >> incubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> > > > >> > >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>
> > > > >%7Cd1
> > > > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> > > > >> 036&sdata=
> > > > >> > >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Bruce
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> ------------------------------
> > > > >> ------------------------------
> > > > >> > >> > ---------
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > > > >> apache.org <http://apache.org/> <http://apache.org/ <http://apache.org/>> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>>>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > >> general-help@incubator.apache.
> > > > >> > >> org
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > ------------------------------
> > > ------------------------------
> > > > >> > >> ---------
> > > > >> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > > > >> apache.org <http://apache.org/> <http://apache.org/ <http://apache.org/>> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>>>
> > > > >> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > >> general-help@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org> <mailto:general-help@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>> <mailto:general-help@incubator <ma...@incubator> <mailto:general-help@incubator <ma...@incubator>>
> > > > >> .apache.org <http://apache.org/> <http://apache.org/ <http://apache.org/>>>
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > --
> > > > >> > >> > perl -e 'print
> > > > >> > >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
> > > > >> "YC;VT*"
> > > > >> > >> );'
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect <https://na01.safelinks.protect/> <https://na01.safelinks.protect/ <https://na01.safelinks.protect/>>
> > > > >> ion.outlook.com/?url= <http://ion.outlook.com/?url=> <http://ion.outlook.com/?url= <http://ion.outlook.com/?url=>> <https://na01.safelinks.protec <https://na01.safelinks.protec/> <https://na01.safelinks.protec/ <https://na01.safelinks.protec/>>
> > > > >> tion.outlook.com/?url= <http://tion.outlook.com/?url=> <http://tion.outlook.com/?url= <http://tion.outlook.com/?url=>>>
> > > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> > > > >> > >> icrosoft.com <http://icrosoft.com/> <http://icrosoft.com/ <http://icrosoft.com/>> <http://icrosoft.com/ <http://icrosoft.com/> <http://icrosoft.com/ <http://icrosoft.com/>>>%
> > > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> > > > >> > >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >> > >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>> <
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>>>
> > > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40mi
> > > > >> crosoft.com <http://crosoft.com/> <http://crosoft.com/ <http://crosoft.com/>> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>>
> > > > >> > >> %
> > > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > > > 9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> > > > >> > >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <
> > > https://na01.safelinks <https://na01.safelinks/> <https://na01.safelinks/ <https://na01.safelinks/>>
> > > > <
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks/ <https://na01.safelinks/> <https://na01.safelinks/ <https://na01.safelinks/>>>.
> > > > >> > >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&> <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&>> <
> > > > >> http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&> <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&>>>
> > > > >> > >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>> <
> > > > >> http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>>%7Cd12890186efe4c
> > > > >> > >> 6e60c908d40597
> > > > >> > >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> > > > >> > >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > > > >> > >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >> > >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>> <
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>>>
> > > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> > > > >> > >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>>%7Cd1
> > > > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> > > > >> 036&sdata=
> > > > >> > >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Gunnar
> > > > > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gunnar
> If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>]

Hi Jeff,

I guess you misunderstood what I am raising for discussion. I'm not arguing
against e-mail lists. I prefer them or we'd not have this discussion,
right? As a matter of fact, my projects at my previous employer adopted an
"everything happens on e-mail" to deal with timezone differences and hive
mind building. So, no need to convince me on the benefit of the technology
and why.

What I AM pointing to is that I'm experiencing groups that aren't
comfortable with interacting using e-mail quoting language and slowness as
barriers. Let's accept that as a fact for the sake of discussion. Do we
ignore that class of community because they're not operating the right way
or do we find ways to interact/lower barriers/whatever makes sense?

Again, this is a generic discussion, not a project-specific discussion.

Thanks,

Gunnar

On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org> wrote:

>
> > On Nov 13, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > As mentioned, the Apache Way is that "everything happens on the mailing
> lists." As a matter of fact, key parts of being an incubator is to learn
> how to operate per the Apache Way and to build communities. We even include
> statistics about mailing list engagement as an indicator of community
> building.
> >
>
> Gunnar, I’m going to give you a big -1 to this.
>
> Unless you can come up with a better global way to A) communicate across a
> medium that everyone uses daily B) archive to search and come back to, I am
> in full disagreement.  Since I have been with Apache (about 14 years), I
> have yet to find a better medium than the lists, and its always been a
> known fact that ultimately, any non-mail list discussions that result in
> some form of a decision are brought to the mail lists for global discussion.
>
> Our mail lists are indexed by Google and others.  Its easy to find what
> one looks for.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> > The struggle I'm referring is that we're seeing a reluctance to
> participate in the main Apache communication methods: email. Clearly, we
> can try to get statistics from the different forums you and I have
> mentioned but that's really just collecting data points.
> >
> > How can you help? Well, how to we get more people from China (or other
> companies) to engage with the mailing lists or vice versa? I'm imagining
> jumping on the QQ group and must admit to be very apprehensive on doing so.
> It's not an easy thing to get over.
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 7:16 AM, Luke Han <luke.hq@gmail.com <mailto:
> luke.hq@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > Hi Gunnar,
> >
> > > Given your statistics, I think there is:
> > > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when
> there's
> > > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> > > invisible to the rest of us.
> >
> >      I think maybe I'm not bring message so clearly, let me try again:
> >      Such account is not a GROUP, it's something like twitter account
> which
> > has 20k followers where the author sharing experiences, samples and
> > anything else...to help to educate users, help to grow up local
> > communities. I have to say, such account helped a lot for ASF projects'
> > adoption in China. Back to QQ group, something like Google Group which
> > everybody could create in seconds.
> >
> >      Is that Trafodion QQ group created and managed by Trafodion PMC or
> > someone else? Did your PMCs make decision over there, or just users who
> > asking questions over there? If "it's invisible to the rest of us" means
> > decision has been made by your PMCs in QQ group but not in mailing
> > list...that's really problem and you have to raise to PPMC/IPMC.
> >
> >      But if it's about user group, there are many local communities
> > everywhere for sure using different languages, in Chinese, in Spanish, in
> > Japanese...could we know everything from there? For example, did Hadoop
> > report include activities from Hortonworks/Cloudera hosted forum, twitter
> > accounts or Facebook pages "like" number or any other online
> forums/groups?
> > They are really user communities too.
> >
> >       I just shared my experience with you in last reply about how we
> > handle that...hope it could help you to understand what you could do. And
> > also brought some facts how user communities formed, operated and what we
> > have did. And brought some data from different Apache projects, obviously
> > it's not "an Apache-wide issue that needs to be addressed".
> >
> >       I'm not argue with you about "Which language is better" or "mailing
> > list vs QQ/Google Group", I just want to help you to figure the root
> cause
> > of your original "struggle" problem.
> >
> >       But I'm not very agree with you raised such discussion after a new
> > incubator project proposal (and just changed the subject name)...looks
> like
> > we are really not friendly to new comers especially from a different, non
> > native English speaking (actually most of talent engineers are well
> > educated with English in China) and different culture world...the team is
> > so "scary" and asked us many times like "will they cancel the vote? do
> they
> > really welcome our project?..." when they saw this thread?
> >
> >       And, let's focus on your really issue, maybe we could help you:)
> >
> >       Thanks.
> >
> > Luke
> >
> >
> >
> > Best Regards!
> > ---------------------
> >
> > Luke Han
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com
> <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Luke:
> > >
> > > This question was originally asked on the incubator list. The members
> list
> > > was added somewhere on the line.
> > >
> > > Part of the incubator challenge is to show community growth. In the
> past, a
> > > good metric seems to have been to check interaction on the mailing
> lists;
> > > for example, on the user list.
> > >
> > > As you note, China changes this equation forming communities on QQ,
> WeChat,
> > > and other places I'm probably not aware of. This means that there can
> be a
> > > thriving user community that the PMC may or may not be aware of. So,
> how to
> > > we assess community involvement that bypass the Apache "everything
> happens
> > > on the mailing lists" principle?
> > >
> > > Like you noted, it's easy to translate questions and respond to
> questions
> > > in English. The Trafodion project does that, no problems. But, most of
> the
> > > discussion in China happen on the alternative forums with the project's
> > > Chinese speakers contributors participating. So, for Trafodion
> > > specifically, I can ask those contributors to provide participation
> > > statistics so that I can include the information in the next report.
> > >
> > > However, I was trying to figure out whether there's an Apache-wide
> issue
> > > that needs to be addressed. Given your statistics, I think there is:
> > > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when
> there's
> > > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> > > invisible to the rest of us.
> > >
> > > So, let's think about this from a community building perspective. The
> > > traditional way of mailing lists is now being augmented by WeChat, QQ,
> etc.
> > > in an organic fashion. I'd argue that you don't want to police organic
> > > growth but rather embrace it so that you can get insights into what's
> going
> > > on.
> > >
> > > Assuming that people agree that it's important to bridge the
> communities,
> > > I'd start with something simple: how can we find out what communities
> exist
> > > in the different Chinese forums, membership, and activity. Shy of
> learning
> > > Chinese that is. :)
> > >
> > > My next question is: how can we help those communities? What would make
> > > Apache usage grow even more? For Trafodion, I simply pointed to the QQ
> > > group but that seems way too little...
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Luke Han <luke.hq@gmail.com <mailto:
> luke.hq@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate
> means
> > > > > to communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard
> about
> > > it.
> > > > So, I
> > > > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion
> group so
> > > > that
> > > > > others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe
> that
> > > was
> > > > > the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than
> shut
> > > > it > down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> > > >
> > > > And for "invisible to the project", are you talking about PMCs or
> Users?
> > > > That's totally different arguments.
> > > >
> > > > Would like to share our experience which may help to bring some
> ideas for
> > > > you. At the beginning, there were many people came to Kylin mailing
> list
> > > > and
> > > > asked questions in Chinese, but our PMC (most of them are Chinese
> too)
> > > had
> > > > tried their best to help to translate to English, again and again.
> And we
> > > > tried to convince people who we knew to ask question in English. And
> we
> > > > have a
> > > > simple rule for our PMCs to answer question in English no matter
> which
> > > > Language
> > > > of the question.
> > > > Not easy for everybody, but finally it works. The point is your PMCs
> > > should
> > > > keep discussion in mailing list, in English.  And then to influent
> others
> > > > who
> > > > want to participate, contribute and use this open source project.
> > > >
> > > > Why English?
> > > > It's only way to cross board for global adoption.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, from user perspective, they really would like to
> learn
> > > > and
> > > > try new technology with their native language so that they could
> > > understand
> > > > quickly and deeply, people may give up if their English is not good
> > > enough
> > > > at that time...then they asking question in their native Language is
> the
> > > > right
> > > > thing they should to do to get help.
> > > >
> > > > For projects coming from non-English developer community, the native
> > > > language is the best one to attract local users and fans, then
> > > developers.
> > > > We
> > > > shouldn't force "users" how to communicate between them, actually
> nothing
> > > > we can do. For example, there's QQ group for Kylin which is very
> active
> > > who
> > > > are discussing and exchanging ideas over there. What can we do? Try
> to
> > > > leading discussion to mailing list and never answer detail question
> there
> > > > but
> > > > will do in mailing list. But that's not said people will coming to
> > > mailing
> > > > list
> > > > because they already could help each other.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, most of Apache projects have QQ or WeChat group(s) in
> China.
> > > > For example, there are hundreds Spark groups each one has 500 people
> and
> > > > more in QQ groups.
> > > >
> > > > One more reference, I just got to know today there's one popular
> Hadoop
> > > > WeChat Official Account ("official account' is WeChat's product,
> > > something
> > > > like channel/blog...) who has 20,000 subscribers. And it's just one
> of
> > > such
> > > > accounts...
> > > >
> > > > Then my question is are PPMCs willing to engage them?
> > > >
> > > > Why Chinese?
> > > > To engage the biggest developer community of the world, no matter
> where's
> > > > project coming from.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards!
> > > > ---------------------
> > > >
> > > > Luke Han
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gunnar Tapper <
> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps it would be a good idea to separate user lists from other
> > > lists?
> > > > I
> > > > > was specifically referring to users wanting to ask questions and
> to get
> > > > > help. The support side if you will.
> > > > >
> > > > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate
> means
> > > to
> > > > > communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about
> it.
> > > > So, I
> > > > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion
> group so
> > > > > that others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go.
> Maybe
> > > > that
> > > > > was the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere
> than
> > > > shut
> > > > > it down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> > > > >
> > > > > As mention, I prefer to use e-mail lists but it seems that users
> aren't
> > > > > comfortable with that. I'm hoping that people in China can help
> > > identify
> > > > > what would work for those users.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have similar issues with documentation but I'll open a separate
> > > > > discussion thread on that topic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Gunnar
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Jeff Genender <
> jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> > > > >> international language, not because its the most used in the
> world.
> > > > Thus
> > > > >> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day,
> I
> > > > think
> > > > >> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross
> > > > borders
> > > > >> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can
> > > tell
> > > > you
> > > > >> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run
> into
> > > > >> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are
> in
> > > > >> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the
> > > > discussion
> > > > >> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about
> who you
> > > > want
> > > > >> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
> > > doesn’t
> > > > >> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.
> This
> > > > >> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the
> project
> > > > when
> > > > >> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses
> any
> > > > >> problems without having someone notify him of a translated
> issue.  In
> > > > the
> > > > >> unlikely event that the project requires input from the
> incubation PMC
> > > > or,
> > > > >> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a
> proper
> > > > >> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the
> language.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down
> a
> > > > >> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my
> .02
> > > is
> > > > >> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about
> > > community
> > > > >> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.
> If
> > > you
> > > > >> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I
> believe
> > > > that
> > > > >> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your
> borders.  I
> > > > think
> > > > >> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep
> RocketMQ a
> > > > >> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> > > > >> interested in why.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Just my usual .02.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Jeff
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk
> <ma...@spicule.co.uk>> wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was
> talking
> > > > about
> > > > >> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay
> but
> > > > >> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
> > > never
> > > > >> happened" didn't mention the language.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how
> would
> > > > non
> > > > >> Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org> <mailto:
> > > > >> rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > > >> > Adding members@
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org>
> > > > <mailto:
> > > > >> rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that
> > > consist
> > > > >> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or
> put
> > > it
> > > > >> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications
> must be
> > > > in
> > > > >> > > English?
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use
> English, as
> > > > >> English
> > > > >> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
> > > software
> > > > >> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of
> proficiency
> > > > >> when it
> > > > >> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China
> is
> > > > much
> > > > >> lower
> > > > >> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to
> learn
> > > > >> English
> > > > >> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will
> also
> > > > >> exclude
> > > > >> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the
> number
> > > of
> > > > >> native
> > > > >> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3
> to 1
> > > > >> according
> > > > >> > > to Wikipedia.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
> > > countries,
> > > > >> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <
> lukehan@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>
> > > > >> <mailto:lukehan@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> Hi Gunnar,
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem
> (maybe
> > > > not
> > > > >> > >> real,
> > > > >> > >> but just
> > > > >> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all
> > > contributions
> > > > >> from
> > > > >> > >> China,
> > > > >> > >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from
> Chinese
> > > > and
> > > > >> LABEL
> > > > >> > >> for such
> > > > >> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons
> of
> > > > >> "issue" to
> > > > >> > >> describe like
> > > > >> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada
> contribution
> > > or
> > > > >> > >> others...
> > > > >> > >> that's not right way.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but
> they are
> > > > >> > >> contributing to
> > > > >> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very
> > > much,
> > > > >> > >> involved
> > > > >> > >> in many
> > > > >> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last
> 31
> > > days
> > > > >> > >> mailing
> > > > >> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org <
> http://lists.apache.org/> <http://lists.apache.org/ <
> http://lists.apache.org/>>
> > > > [1]:
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> > > > >> > >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> > > > >> > >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> > > > >> > >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> > > > >> > >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> > > > >> > >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> > > > >> > >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these
> > > projects,
> > > > >> you
> > > > >> > >> could check
> > > > >> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within
> mailing
> > > > >> list.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find
> out a
> > > > way
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> > >> access
> > > > >> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native
> English
> > > > >> speakers,
> > > > >> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the
> > > Apache
> > > > >> Way.
> > > > >> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate
> global
> > > > >> > >> community, and try
> > > > >> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should
> have the
> > > > >> patience
> > > > >> > >> for
> > > > >> > >> those new comers.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know
> our
> > > > >> journey,
> > > > >> > >> our experience
> > > > >> > >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> > > > >> > >> challenges...through
> > > > >> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also
> > > helping
> > > > >> many
> > > > >> > >> potential projects
> > > > >> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like
> "Help
> > > > >> > >> Trafodion
> > > > >> > >> community"
> > > > >> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
> > > > >> Trafodion
> > > > >> > >> PMC
> > > > >> > >> know
> > > > >> > >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
> > > > >> articles,
> > > > >> > >> session recordings and
> > > > >> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to
> face
> > > > >> > >> discussion
> > > > >> > >> if necessary:-)
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/> <
> https://lists.apache.org/ <https://lists.apache.org/>>  <
> > > > >> https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/> <
> https://lists.apache.org/ <https://lists.apache.org/>>>
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> > > > >> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:
> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>>
> > > > >> > >> wrote:
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >> > Hi,
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of
> > > > contribution
> > > > >> from
> > > > >> > >> > China.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors
> aren't
> > > > that
> > > > >> > >> active
> > > > >> > >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ
> > > communicating
> > > > in
> > > > >> > >> > Chinese.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that
> it's
> > > hard
> > > > >> not to
> > > > >> > >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
> > > > >> questions etc
> > > > >> > >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
> > > > >> forward,
> > > > >> > >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that
> > > > members
> > > > >> in
> > > > >> > >> China
> > > > >> > >> > can help advise on what can be done to address
> communication
> > > > >> issues like
> > > > >> > >> > this.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Thanks,
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Gunnar
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <
> > > > >> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <ma...@microsoft.com>
> <mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <ma...@microsoft.com>>>
> > > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a
> > > couple
> > > > of
> > > > >> > >> years
> > > > >> > >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in
> open
> > > > >> source
> > > > >> > >> beyond
> > > > >> > >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact
> finding
> > > > >> trip to
> > > > >> > >> > China.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I
> > > talked
> > > > >> to. We
> > > > >> > >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
> > > > >> involved
> > > > >> > >> with
> > > > >> > >> > this proposal.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this
> > > > project
> > > > >> and
> > > > >> > >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the
> foundation.
> > > We
> > > > >> will
> > > > >> > >> need
> > > > >> > >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other
> > > China
> > > > >> born
> > > > >> > >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences
> that
> > > we
> > > > >> need
> > > > >> > >> to
> > > > >> > >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
> > > > >> foundation
> > > > >> > >> and as
> > > > >> > >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way.
> Having
> > > > met
> > > > >> some
> > > > >> > >> of
> > > > >> > >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right
> mentors
> > > the
> > > > >> > >> project
> > > > >> > >> > can succeed.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Ross
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > ---
> > > > >> > >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > ________________________________
> > > > >> > >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:
> bruce.snyder@gmail.com> <mailto:
> > > > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>>
> > > > >> > >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> > > > >> > >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org <mailto:
> general@incubator.apache.org> <mailto:
> > > general@incubator.apac
> > > > >> he.org <http://he.org/>>
> > > > >> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Hi John,
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> > > > >> constructive
> > > > >> > >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal
> and
> > > > >> project
> > > > >> > >> using
> > > > >> > >> > your suggestions.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread
> by Von
> > > > >> Gosling,
> > > > >> > >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to
> the
> > > > >> Github
> > > > >> > >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging
> activity'
> > > the
> > > > >> history
> > > > >> > >> > was
> > > > >> > >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that
> someone's
> > > > >> git-fu
> > > > >> > >> went
> > > > >> > >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be
> removed.
> > > Von
> > > > >> also
> > > > >> > >> gives
> > > > >> > >> > further explanation of the project history in a response
> below.
> > > > >> Indeed,
> > > > >> > >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen
> before
> > > > >> with
> > > > >> > >> git),
> > > > >> > >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF
> to
> > > > >> improve
> > > > >> > >> and
> > > > >> > >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit
> surprising,
> > > > since
> > > > >> > >> Bruce is
> > > > >> > >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at
> the ASF
> > > > >> exist
> > > > >> > >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs
> good
> > > > >> mentors,
> > > > >> > >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
> > > > >> interest in
> > > > >> > >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my
> interest
> > > in
> > > > >> > >> continuing
> > > > >> > >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15
> > > years
> > > > >> > >> experience
> > > > >> > >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one
> project
> > > > >> over
> > > > >> > >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to
> collaborate
> > > > >> > >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a
> > > > >> community of
> > > > >> > >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow.
> The
> > > > ASF
> > > > >> is an
> > > > >> > >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn
> from
> > > > new
> > > > >> > >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for
> code and
> > > > >> stay for
> > > > >> > >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new
> > > > >> project and
> > > > >> > >> > people to the ASF.
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both
> good
> > > > >> > >> suggestions
> > > > >> > >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve
> the
> > > > >> proposal.
> > > > >> > >> Even
> > > > >> > >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would
> also
> > > be
> > > > >> great
> > > > >> > >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project
> > > > moving
> > > > >> > >> forward.
> > > > >> > >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the
> projects
> > > you
> > > > >> > >> mentioned
> > > > >> > >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on
> the
> > > > >> RocketMQ
> > > > >> > >> code
> > > > >> > >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by
> > > John
> > > > >> with
> > > > >> > >> his
> > > > >> > >> > thoughts:
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following
> two
> > > > >> questions
> > > > >> > >> > specifically:
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > > > >> communities
> > > > >> > >> to
> > > > >> > >> > build cross platform clients?
> > > > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode,
> Derby as
> > > > >> backend
> > > > >> > >> > persistence stores?
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > Bruce
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
> > > > >> john.d.ament@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:
> john.d.ament@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>>
> > > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> > > > >> roman@shaposhnik.org <ma...@shaposhnik.org> <mailto:
> roman@shaposhnik.org <ma...@shaposhnik.org>>
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly
> > > > concerned
> > > > >> > >> about:
> > > > >> > >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> <
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>>
> > > > >> > >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> > > > >> > >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com
> <http://40microsoft.com/> <
> > > > >> http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>%
> > > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> > > > >> > >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge
> > > blobs
> > > > >> of
> > > > >> > >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of
> initial
> > > > >> committers
> > > > >> > >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a
> lot
> > > of
> > > > >> time
> > > > >> > >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
> > > > >> prevails.
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the
> > > statement:
> > > > >> > >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > > > >> > >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as
> > > well.
> > > > >> I
> > > > >> > >> > suspect
> > > > >> > >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source
> > > development
> > > > >> on the
> > > > >> > >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other
> > > apache
> > > > >> > >> products"
> > > > >> > >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a
> podling
> > > > >> competes
> > > > >> > >> with
> > > > >> > >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is
> the
> > > > >> chair of
> > > > >> > >> one
> > > > >> > >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has
> > > synergies
> > > > >> with
> > > > >> > >> the
> > > > >> > >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF
> projects
> > > > >> today in
> > > > >> > >> > their
> > > > >> > >> > > code base.
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or
> ActiveMQ
> > > > >> > >> communities
> > > > >> > >> > to
> > > > >> > >> > > build cross platform clients?
> > > > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode,
> Derby
> > > as
> > > > >> backend
> > > > >> > >> > > persistence stores?
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > etc..
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > Thanks,
> > > > >> > >> > > > Roman.
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> > > > >> > >> brianm@skife.org <ma...@skife.org> <mailto:
> brianm@skife.org <ma...@skife.org>>>
> > > > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> > > > > +1 !
> > > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <
> > > > >> jim@jagunet.com <ma...@jagunet.com> <mailto:jim@jagunet.com
> <ma...@jagunet.com>>>
> > > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> Cool.
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> +1
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> > > > >> > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>>
> > > > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator
> > > podling
> > > > >> named
> > > > >> > >> > > Apache
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> > > > >> distributed,
> > > > >> > >> > easy
> > > > >> > >> > > > to
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> use
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for
> processing
> > > > >> large
> > > > >> > >> > amounts
> > > > >> > >> > > > of
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the
> > > > >> following
> > > > >> > >> URL:
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protect <
> https://na01.safelinks.protect/>
> > > > >> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <http://ion.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A%> <https://na01.safelinks.protec <https://na01.safelinks.protec/>
> > > > >> tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <http://tion.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A%>>
> > > > >> > >> 2F%
> > > > >> > >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/> <
> http://2fwiki.apache.org/ <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>>%2F
> > > > >> incubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> > > > >> > >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> http://40microsoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/
> >
> > > > >%7Cd1
> > > > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> > > > >> 036&sdata=
> > > > >> > >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3C
> RgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal
> below.
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Bruce
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> ------------------------------
> > > > >> ------------------------------
> > > > >> > >> > ---------
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > > > >> apache.org <http://apache.org/> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@
> incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > >> general-help@incubator.apache.
> > > > >> > >> org
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > > ------------------------------
> > > ------------------------------
> > > > >> > >> ---------
> > > > >> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > > > >> apache.org <http://apache.org/> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@
> incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>>
> > > > >> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > >> general-help@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general-help@
> incubator.apache.org> <mailto:general-help@incubator <mailto:
> general-help@incubator>
> > > > >> .apache.org <http://apache.org/>>
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >> > >
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > --
> > > > >> > >> > perl -e 'print
> > > > >> > >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&
> 5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
> > > > >> "YC;VT*"
> > > > >> > >> );'
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect <
> https://na01.safelinks.protect/>
> > > > >> ion.outlook.com/?url= <http://ion.outlook.com/?url=> <
> https://na01.safelinks.protec <https://na01.safelinks.protec/>
> > > > >> tion.outlook.com/?url= <http://tion.outlook.com/?url=>>
> > > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%
> 40m
> > > > >> > >> icrosoft.com <http://icrosoft.com/> <http://icrosoft.com/ <
> http://icrosoft.com/>>%
> > > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> > > > >> > >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >> > >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> <
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>>
> > > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%
> 40mi
> > > > >> crosoft.com <http://crosoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <
> http://40microsoft.com/>>
> > > > >> > >> %
> > > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > > > 9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> > > > >> > >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <
> > > https://na01.safelinks <https://na01.safelinks/>
> > > > <
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks/ <https://na01.safelinks/>>.
> > > > >> > >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&> <
> > > > >> http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&>>
> > > > >> > >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> http://40microsoft.com/> <
> > > > >> http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>%
> 7Cd12890186efe4c
> > > > >> > >> 6e60c908d40597
> > > > >> > >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> > > > >> > >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > > > >> > >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoW
> zeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >> > >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.
> protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.
> protection.outlook.com/?url=> <
> > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>>
> > > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> > > > >> > >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/> <
> http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>%7Cd1
> > > > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> > > > >> 036&sdata=
> > > > >> > >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&
> reserved=0
> > > > >> > >> >
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Gunnar
> > > > > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're
> right.*
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
>
>


-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org>]

> On Nov 13, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As mentioned, the Apache Way is that "everything happens on the mailing lists." As a matter of fact, key parts of being an incubator is to learn how to operate per the Apache Way and to build communities. We even include statistics about mailing list engagement as an indicator of community building.
> 

Gunnar, I’m going to give you a big -1 to this.  

Unless you can come up with a better global way to A) communicate across a medium that everyone uses daily B) archive to search and come back to, I am in full disagreement.  Since I have been with Apache (about 14 years), I have yet to find a better medium than the lists, and its always been a known fact that ultimately, any non-mail list discussions that result in some form of a decision are brought to the mail lists for global discussion.

Our mail lists are indexed by Google and others.  Its easy to find what one looks for.

Jeff


> The struggle I'm referring is that we're seeing a reluctance to participate in the main Apache communication methods: email. Clearly, we can try to get statistics from the different forums you and I have mentioned but that's really just collecting data points. 
> 
> How can you help? Well, how to we get more people from China (or other companies) to engage with the mailing lists or vice versa? I'm imagining jumping on the QQ group and must admit to be very apprehensive on doing so. It's not an easy thing to get over. 
> 
> Gunnar
> 
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 7:16 AM, Luke Han <luke.hq@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi Gunnar,
> 
> > Given your statistics, I think there is:
> > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when there's
> > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> > invisible to the rest of us.
> 
>      I think maybe I'm not bring message so clearly, let me try again:
>      Such account is not a GROUP, it's something like twitter account which
> has 20k followers where the author sharing experiences, samples and
> anything else...to help to educate users, help to grow up local
> communities. I have to say, such account helped a lot for ASF projects'
> adoption in China. Back to QQ group, something like Google Group which
> everybody could create in seconds.
> 
>      Is that Trafodion QQ group created and managed by Trafodion PMC or
> someone else? Did your PMCs make decision over there, or just users who
> asking questions over there? If "it's invisible to the rest of us" means
> decision has been made by your PMCs in QQ group but not in mailing
> list...that's really problem and you have to raise to PPMC/IPMC.
> 
>      But if it's about user group, there are many local communities
> everywhere for sure using different languages, in Chinese, in Spanish, in
> Japanese...could we know everything from there? For example, did Hadoop
> report include activities from Hortonworks/Cloudera hosted forum, twitter
> accounts or Facebook pages "like" number or any other online forums/groups?
> They are really user communities too.
> 
>       I just shared my experience with you in last reply about how we
> handle that...hope it could help you to understand what you could do. And
> also brought some facts how user communities formed, operated and what we
> have did. And brought some data from different Apache projects, obviously
> it's not "an Apache-wide issue that needs to be addressed".
> 
>       I'm not argue with you about "Which language is better" or "mailing
> list vs QQ/Google Group", I just want to help you to figure the root cause
> of your original "struggle" problem.
> 
>       But I'm not very agree with you raised such discussion after a new
> incubator project proposal (and just changed the subject name)...looks like
> we are really not friendly to new comers especially from a different, non
> native English speaking (actually most of talent engineers are well
> educated with English in China) and different culture world...the team is
> so "scary" and asked us many times like "will they cancel the vote? do they
> really welcome our project?..." when they saw this thread?
> 
>       And, let's focus on your really issue, maybe we could help you:)
> 
>       Thanks.
> 
> Luke
> 
> 
> 
> Best Regards!
> ---------------------
> 
> Luke Han
> 
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Luke:
> >
> > This question was originally asked on the incubator list. The members list
> > was added somewhere on the line.
> >
> > Part of the incubator challenge is to show community growth. In the past, a
> > good metric seems to have been to check interaction on the mailing lists;
> > for example, on the user list.
> >
> > As you note, China changes this equation forming communities on QQ, WeChat,
> > and other places I'm probably not aware of. This means that there can be a
> > thriving user community that the PMC may or may not be aware of. So, how to
> > we assess community involvement that bypass the Apache "everything happens
> > on the mailing lists" principle?
> >
> > Like you noted, it's easy to translate questions and respond to questions
> > in English. The Trafodion project does that, no problems. But, most of the
> > discussion in China happen on the alternative forums with the project's
> > Chinese speakers contributors participating. So, for Trafodion
> > specifically, I can ask those contributors to provide participation
> > statistics so that I can include the information in the next report.
> >
> > However, I was trying to figure out whether there's an Apache-wide issue
> > that needs to be addressed. Given your statistics, I think there is:
> > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when there's
> > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> > invisible to the rest of us.
> >
> > So, let's think about this from a community building perspective. The
> > traditional way of mailing lists is now being augmented by WeChat, QQ, etc.
> > in an organic fashion. I'd argue that you don't want to police organic
> > growth but rather embrace it so that you can get insights into what's going
> > on.
> >
> > Assuming that people agree that it's important to bridge the communities,
> > I'd start with something simple: how can we find out what communities exist
> > in the different Chinese forums, membership, and activity. Shy of learning
> > Chinese that is. :)
> >
> > My next question is: how can we help those communities? What would make
> > Apache usage grow even more? For Trafodion, I simply pointed to the QQ
> > group but that seems way too little...
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Luke Han <luke.hq@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means
> > > > to communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about
> > it.
> > > So, I
> > > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
> > > that
> > > > others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe that
> > was
> > > > the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than shut
> > > it > down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> > >
> > > And for "invisible to the project", are you talking about PMCs or Users?
> > > That's totally different arguments.
> > >
> > > Would like to share our experience which may help to bring some ideas for
> > > you. At the beginning, there were many people came to Kylin mailing list
> > > and
> > > asked questions in Chinese, but our PMC (most of them are Chinese too)
> > had
> > > tried their best to help to translate to English, again and again. And we
> > > tried to convince people who we knew to ask question in English. And we
> > > have a
> > > simple rule for our PMCs to answer question in English no matter which
> > > Language
> > > of the question.
> > > Not easy for everybody, but finally it works. The point is your PMCs
> > should
> > > keep discussion in mailing list, in English.  And then to influent others
> > > who
> > > want to participate, contribute and use this open source project.
> > >
> > > Why English?
> > > It's only way to cross board for global adoption.
> > >
> > >
> > > On the other hand, from user perspective, they really would like to learn
> > > and
> > > try new technology with their native language so that they could
> > understand
> > > quickly and deeply, people may give up if their English is not good
> > enough
> > > at that time...then they asking question in their native Language is the
> > > right
> > > thing they should to do to get help.
> > >
> > > For projects coming from non-English developer community, the native
> > > language is the best one to attract local users and fans, then
> > developers.
> > > We
> > > shouldn't force "users" how to communicate between them, actually nothing
> > > we can do. For example, there's QQ group for Kylin which is very active
> > who
> > > are discussing and exchanging ideas over there. What can we do? Try to
> > > leading discussion to mailing list and never answer detail question there
> > > but
> > > will do in mailing list. But that's not said people will coming to
> > mailing
> > > list
> > > because they already could help each other.
> > >
> > > Actually, most of Apache projects have QQ or WeChat group(s) in China.
> > > For example, there are hundreds Spark groups each one has 500 people and
> > > more in QQ groups.
> > >
> > > One more reference, I just got to know today there's one popular Hadoop
> > > WeChat Official Account ("official account' is WeChat's product,
> > something
> > > like channel/blog...) who has 20,000 subscribers. And it's just one of
> > such
> > > accounts...
> > >
> > > Then my question is are PPMCs willing to engage them?
> > >
> > > Why Chinese?
> > > To engage the biggest developer community of the world, no matter where's
> > > project coming from.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best Regards!
> > > ---------------------
> > >
> > > Luke Han
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps it would be a good idea to separate user lists from other
> > lists?
> > > I
> > > > was specifically referring to users wanting to ask questions and to get
> > > > help. The support side if you will.
> > > >
> > > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means
> > to
> > > > communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it.
> > > So, I
> > > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
> > > > that others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe
> > > that
> > > > was the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than
> > > shut
> > > > it down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> > > >
> > > > As mention, I prefer to use e-mail lists but it seems that users aren't
> > > > comfortable with that. I'm hoping that people in China can help
> > identify
> > > > what would work for those users.
> > > >
> > > > I have similar issues with documentation but I'll open a separate
> > > > discussion thread on that topic.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Gunnar
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> > > >> international language, not because its the most used in the world.
> > > Thus
> > > >> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I
> > > think
> > > >> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross
> > > borders
> > > >> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can
> > tell
> > > you
> > > >> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> > > >> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> > > >> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the
> > > discussion
> > > >> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you
> > > want
> > > >> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> > > >>
> > > >> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
> > doesn’t
> > > >> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
> > > >> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project
> > > when
> > > >> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> > > >> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In
> > > the
> > > >> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC
> > > or,
> > > >> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> > > >> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> > > >>
> > > >> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> > > >> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02
> > is
> > > >> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about
> > community
> > > >> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If
> > you
> > > >> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe
> > > that
> > > >> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I
> > > think
> > > >> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> > > >> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> > > >> interested in why.
> > > >>
> > > >> Just my usual .02.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jeff
> > > >>
> > > >> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk <ma...@spicule.co.uk>> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
> > > about
> > > >> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> > > >> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
> > never
> > > >> happened" didn't mention the language.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would
> > > non
> > > >> Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org> <mailto:
> > > >> rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > >> > Adding members@
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>
> > > <mailto:
> > > >> rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that
> > consist
> > > >> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put
> > it
> > > >> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be
> > > in
> > > >> > > English?
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> > > >> English
> > > >> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
> > software
> > > >> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
> > > >> when it
> > > >> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
> > > much
> > > >> lower
> > > >> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> > > >> English
> > > >> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> > > >> exclude
> > > >> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number
> > of
> > > >> native
> > > >> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> > > >> according
> > > >> > > to Wikipedia.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
> > countries,
> > > >> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>
> > > >> <mailto:lukehan@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >> Hi Gunnar,
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe
> > > not
> > > >> > >> real,
> > > >> > >> but just
> > > >> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all
> > contributions
> > > >> from
> > > >> > >> China,
> > > >> > >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese
> > > and
> > > >> LABEL
> > > >> > >> for such
> > > >> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
> > > >> "issue" to
> > > >> > >> describe like
> > > >> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution
> > or
> > > >> > >> others...
> > > >> > >> that's not right way.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> > > >> > >> contributing to
> > > >> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very
> > much,
> > > >> > >> involved
> > > >> > >> in many
> > > >> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31
> > days
> > > >> > >> mailing
> > > >> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org <http://lists.apache.org/> <http://lists.apache.org/ <http://lists.apache.org/>>
> > > [1]:
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> > > >> > >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> > > >> > >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> > > >> > >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> > > >> > >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> > > >> > >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> > > >> > >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these
> > projects,
> > > >> you
> > > >> > >> could check
> > > >> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
> > > >> list.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a
> > > way
> > > >> to
> > > >> > >> access
> > > >> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
> > > >> speakers,
> > > >> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the
> > Apache
> > > >> Way.
> > > >> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> > > >> > >> community, and try
> > > >> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> > > >> patience
> > > >> > >> for
> > > >> > >> those new comers.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> > > >> journey,
> > > >> > >> our experience
> > > >> > >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> > > >> > >> challenges...through
> > > >> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also
> > helping
> > > >> many
> > > >> > >> potential projects
> > > >> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> > > >> > >> Trafodion
> > > >> > >> community"
> > > >> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
> > > >> Trafodion
> > > >> > >> PMC
> > > >> > >> know
> > > >> > >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
> > > >> articles,
> > > >> > >> session recordings and
> > > >> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> > > >> > >> discussion
> > > >> > >> if necessary:-)
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/> <https://lists.apache.org/ <https://lists.apache.org/>>  <
> > > >> https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/> <https://lists.apache.org/ <https://lists.apache.org/>>>
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> > > >> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>>
> > > >> > >> wrote:
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> > Hi,
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of
> > > contribution
> > > >> from
> > > >> > >> > China.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't
> > > that
> > > >> > >> active
> > > >> > >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ
> > communicating
> > > in
> > > >> > >> > Chinese.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's
> > hard
> > > >> not to
> > > >> > >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
> > > >> questions etc
> > > >> > >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
> > > >> forward,
> > > >> > >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that
> > > members
> > > >> in
> > > >> > >> China
> > > >> > >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication
> > > >> issues like
> > > >> > >> > this.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Thanks,
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Gunnar
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <
> > > >> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <ma...@microsoft.com> <mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <ma...@microsoft.com>>>
> > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a
> > couple
> > > of
> > > >> > >> years
> > > >> > >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open
> > > >> source
> > > >> > >> beyond
> > > >> > >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding
> > > >> trip to
> > > >> > >> > China.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I
> > talked
> > > >> to. We
> > > >> > >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
> > > >> involved
> > > >> > >> with
> > > >> > >> > this proposal.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this
> > > project
> > > >> and
> > > >> > >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation.
> > We
> > > >> will
> > > >> > >> need
> > > >> > >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other
> > China
> > > >> born
> > > >> > >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that
> > we
> > > >> need
> > > >> > >> to
> > > >> > >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
> > > >> foundation
> > > >> > >> and as
> > > >> > >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having
> > > met
> > > >> some
> > > >> > >> of
> > > >> > >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors
> > the
> > > >> > >> project
> > > >> > >> > can succeed.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Ross
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > ---
> > > >> > >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > ________________________________
> > > >> > >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:
> > > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>>
> > > >> > >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> > > >> > >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org> <mailto:
> > general@incubator.apac
> > > >> he.org <http://he.org/>>
> > > >> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Hi John,
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> > > >> constructive
> > > >> > >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and
> > > >> project
> > > >> > >> using
> > > >> > >> > your suggestions.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
> > > >> Gosling,
> > > >> > >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the
> > > >> Github
> > > >> > >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity'
> > the
> > > >> history
> > > >> > >> > was
> > > >> > >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's
> > > >> git-fu
> > > >> > >> went
> > > >> > >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed.
> > Von
> > > >> also
> > > >> > >> gives
> > > >> > >> > further explanation of the project history in a response below.
> > > >> Indeed,
> > > >> > >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before
> > > >> with
> > > >> > >> git),
> > > >> > >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to
> > > >> improve
> > > >> > >> and
> > > >> > >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising,
> > > since
> > > >> > >> Bruce is
> > > >> > >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF
> > > >> exist
> > > >> > >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
> > > >> mentors,
> > > >> > >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
> > > >> interest in
> > > >> > >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest
> > in
> > > >> > >> continuing
> > > >> > >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15
> > years
> > > >> > >> experience
> > > >> > >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project
> > > >> over
> > > >> > >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> > > >> > >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a
> > > >> community of
> > > >> > >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The
> > > ASF
> > > >> is an
> > > >> > >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from
> > > new
> > > >> > >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and
> > > >> stay for
> > > >> > >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new
> > > >> project and
> > > >> > >> > people to the ASF.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> > > >> > >> suggestions
> > > >> > >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
> > > >> proposal.
> > > >> > >> Even
> > > >> > >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also
> > be
> > > >> great
> > > >> > >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project
> > > moving
> > > >> > >> forward.
> > > >> > >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects
> > you
> > > >> > >> mentioned
> > > >> > >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
> > > >> RocketMQ
> > > >> > >> code
> > > >> > >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by
> > John
> > > >> with
> > > >> > >> his
> > > >> > >> > thoughts:
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
> > > >> questions
> > > >> > >> > specifically:
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > > >> communities
> > > >> > >> to
> > > >> > >> > build cross platform clients?
> > > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> > > >> backend
> > > >> > >> > persistence stores?
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Bruce
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
> > > >> john.d.ament@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:john.d.ament@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>>
> > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> > > >> roman@shaposhnik.org <ma...@shaposhnik.org> <mailto:roman@shaposhnik.org <ma...@shaposhnik.org>>
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > wrote:
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly
> > > concerned
> > > >> > >> about:
> > > >> > >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> <
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>>
> > > >> > >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> > > >> > >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/> <
> > > >> http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>%
> > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> > > >> > >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge
> > blobs
> > > >> of
> > > >> > >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
> > > >> committers
> > > >> > >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot
> > of
> > > >> time
> > > >> > >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
> > > >> prevails.
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the
> > statement:
> > > >> > >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > > >> > >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as
> > well.
> > > >> I
> > > >> > >> > suspect
> > > >> > >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source
> > development
> > > >> on the
> > > >> > >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other
> > apache
> > > >> > >> products"
> > > >> > >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
> > > >> competes
> > > >> > >> with
> > > >> > >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the
> > > >> chair of
> > > >> > >> one
> > > >> > >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has
> > synergies
> > > >> with
> > > >> > >> the
> > > >> > >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects
> > > >> today in
> > > >> > >> > their
> > > >> > >> > > code base.
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > > >> > >> communities
> > > >> > >> > to
> > > >> > >> > > build cross platform clients?
> > > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby
> > as
> > > >> backend
> > > >> > >> > > persistence stores?
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > etc..
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > Thanks,
> > > >> > >> > > > Roman.
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> > > >> > >> brianm@skife.org <ma...@skife.org> <mailto:brianm@skife.org <ma...@skife.org>>>
> > > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > > +1 !
> > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <
> > > >> jim@jagunet.com <ma...@jagunet.com> <mailto:jim@jagunet.com <ma...@jagunet.com>>>
> > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> Cool.
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >> +1
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> > > >> > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com> <mailto:bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>>
> > > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator
> > podling
> > > >> named
> > > >> > >> > > Apache
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> > > >> distributed,
> > > >> > >> > easy
> > > >> > >> > > > to
> > > >> > >> > > > >> use
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing
> > > >> large
> > > >> > >> > amounts
> > > >> > >> > > > of
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the
> > > >> following
> > > >> > >> URL:
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protect <https://na01.safelinks.protect/>
> > > >> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <http://ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%> <https://na01.safelinks.protec <https://na01.safelinks.protec/>
> > > >> tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <http://tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%>>
> > > >> > >> 2F%
> > > >> > >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/> <http://2fwiki.apache.org/ <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>>%2F
> > > >> incubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> > > >> > >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>
> > > >%7Cd1
> > > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> > > >> 036&sdata=
> > > >> > >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > Bruce
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >> ------------------------------
> > > >> ------------------------------
> > > >> > >> > ---------
> > > >> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > > >> apache.org <http://apache.org/> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>>
> > > >> > >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > >> general-help@incubator.apache.
> > > >> > >> org
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > ------------------------------
> > ------------------------------
> > > >> > >> ---------
> > > >> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > > >> apache.org <http://apache.org/> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>>
> > > >> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > >> general-help@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org> <mailto:general-help@incubator <ma...@incubator>
> > > >> .apache.org <http://apache.org/>>
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > --
> > > >> > >> > perl -e 'print
> > > >> > >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
> > > >> "YC;VT*"
> > > >> > >> );'
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect <https://na01.safelinks.protect/>
> > > >> ion.outlook.com/?url= <http://ion.outlook.com/?url=> <https://na01.safelinks.protec <https://na01.safelinks.protec/>
> > > >> tion.outlook.com/?url= <http://tion.outlook.com/?url=>>
> > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> > > >> > >> icrosoft.com <http://icrosoft.com/> <http://icrosoft.com/ <http://icrosoft.com/>>%
> > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> > > >> > >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> > > >> > >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> <
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>>
> > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40mi
> > > >> crosoft.com <http://crosoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>
> > > >> > >> %
> > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > > 9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> > > >> > >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <
> > https://na01.safelinks <https://na01.safelinks/>
> > > <
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks/ <https://na01.safelinks/>>.
> > > >> > >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&> <
> > > >> http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&>>
> > > >> > >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/> <
> > > >> http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>%7Cd12890186efe4c
> > > >> > >> 6e60c908d40597
> > > >> > >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> > > >> > >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > > >> > >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> > > >> > >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> <
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>>
> > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> > > >> > >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>%7Cd1
> > > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> > > >> 036&sdata=
> > > >> > >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Gunnar
> > > > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gunnar
> If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>]

Hi Luke,

I'm sorry you feel that it was inappropriate to start a discussion about
expanded community building in reaction the the RocketMQ proposal,
especially since my intent was to help the proposed incubator based on what
I've seen with the Trafodion project, which has a strong Chinese
contribution.

As mentioned, the Apache Way is that "everything happens on the mailing
lists." As a matter of fact, key parts of being an incubator is to learn
how to operate per the Apache Way and to build communities. We even include
statistics about mailing list engagement as an indicator of community
building.

The struggle I'm referring is that we're seeing a reluctance to participate
in the main Apache communication methods: email. Clearly, we can try to get
statistics from the different forums you and I have mentioned but that's
really just collecting data points.

How can you help? Well, how to we get more people from China (or other
companies) to engage with the mailing lists or vice versa? I'm imagining
jumping on the QQ group and must admit to be very apprehensive on doing so.
It's not an easy thing to get over.

Gunnar

On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 7:16 AM, Luke Han <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Gunnar,
>
> > Given your statistics, I think there is:
> > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when
> there's
> > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> > invisible to the rest of us.
>
>      I think maybe I'm not bring message so clearly, let me try again:
>      Such account is not a GROUP, it's something like twitter account which
> has 20k followers where the author sharing experiences, samples and
> anything else...to help to educate users, help to grow up local
> communities. I have to say, such account helped a lot for ASF projects'
> adoption in China. Back to QQ group, something like Google Group which
> everybody could create in seconds.
>
>      Is that Trafodion QQ group created and managed by Trafodion PMC or
> someone else? Did your PMCs make decision over there, or just users who
> asking questions over there? If "it's invisible to the rest of us" means
> decision has been made by your PMCs in QQ group but not in mailing
> list...that's really problem and you have to raise to PPMC/IPMC.
>
>      But if it's about user group, there are many local communities
> everywhere for sure using different languages, in Chinese, in Spanish, in
> Japanese...could we know everything from there? For example, did Hadoop
> report include activities from Hortonworks/Cloudera hosted forum, twitter
> accounts or Facebook pages "like" number or any other online forums/groups?
> They are really user communities too.
>
>       I just shared my experience with you in last reply about how we
> handle that...hope it could help you to understand what you could do. And
> also brought some facts how user communities formed, operated and what we
> have did. And brought some data from different Apache projects, obviously
> it's not "an Apache-wide issue that needs to be addressed".
>
>       I'm not argue with you about "Which language is better" or "mailing
> list vs QQ/Google Group", I just want to help you to figure the root cause
> of your original "struggle" problem.
>
>       But I'm not very agree with you raised such discussion after a new
> incubator project proposal (and just changed the subject name)...looks like
> we are really not friendly to new comers especially from a different, non
> native English speaking (actually most of talent engineers are well
> educated with English in China) and different culture world...the team is
> so "scary" and asked us many times like "will they cancel the vote? do they
> really welcome our project?..." when they saw this thread?
>
>       And, let's focus on your really issue, maybe we could help you:)
>
>       Thanks.
>
> Luke
>
>
>
> Best Regards!
> ---------------------
>
> Luke Han
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Luke:
> >
> > This question was originally asked on the incubator list. The members
> list
> > was added somewhere on the line.
> >
> > Part of the incubator challenge is to show community growth. In the
> past, a
> > good metric seems to have been to check interaction on the mailing lists;
> > for example, on the user list.
> >
> > As you note, China changes this equation forming communities on QQ,
> WeChat,
> > and other places I'm probably not aware of. This means that there can be
> a
> > thriving user community that the PMC may or may not be aware of. So, how
> to
> > we assess community involvement that bypass the Apache "everything
> happens
> > on the mailing lists" principle?
> >
> > Like you noted, it's easy to translate questions and respond to questions
> > in English. The Trafodion project does that, no problems. But, most of
> the
> > discussion in China happen on the alternative forums with the project's
> > Chinese speakers contributors participating. So, for Trafodion
> > specifically, I can ask those contributors to provide participation
> > statistics so that I can include the information in the next report.
> >
> > However, I was trying to figure out whether there's an Apache-wide issue
> > that needs to be addressed. Given your statistics, I think there is:
> > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when
> there's
> > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> > invisible to the rest of us.
> >
> > So, let's think about this from a community building perspective. The
> > traditional way of mailing lists is now being augmented by WeChat, QQ,
> etc.
> > in an organic fashion. I'd argue that you don't want to police organic
> > growth but rather embrace it so that you can get insights into what's
> going
> > on.
> >
> > Assuming that people agree that it's important to bridge the communities,
> > I'd start with something simple: how can we find out what communities
> exist
> > in the different Chinese forums, membership, and activity. Shy of
> learning
> > Chinese that is. :)
> >
> > My next question is: how can we help those communities? What would make
> > Apache usage grow even more? For Trafodion, I simply pointed to the QQ
> > group but that seems way too little...
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Luke Han <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate
> means
> > > > to communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about
> > it.
> > > So, I
> > > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group
> so
> > > that
> > > > others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe that
> > was
> > > > the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than
> shut
> > > it > down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> > >
> > > And for "invisible to the project", are you talking about PMCs or
> Users?
> > > That's totally different arguments.
> > >
> > > Would like to share our experience which may help to bring some ideas
> for
> > > you. At the beginning, there were many people came to Kylin mailing
> list
> > > and
> > > asked questions in Chinese, but our PMC (most of them are Chinese too)
> > had
> > > tried their best to help to translate to English, again and again. And
> we
> > > tried to convince people who we knew to ask question in English. And we
> > > have a
> > > simple rule for our PMCs to answer question in English no matter which
> > > Language
> > > of the question.
> > > Not easy for everybody, but finally it works. The point is your PMCs
> > should
> > > keep discussion in mailing list, in English.  And then to influent
> others
> > > who
> > > want to participate, contribute and use this open source project.
> > >
> > > Why English?
> > > It's only way to cross board for global adoption.
> > >
> > >
> > > On the other hand, from user perspective, they really would like to
> learn
> > > and
> > > try new technology with their native language so that they could
> > understand
> > > quickly and deeply, people may give up if their English is not good
> > enough
> > > at that time...then they asking question in their native Language is
> the
> > > right
> > > thing they should to do to get help.
> > >
> > > For projects coming from non-English developer community, the native
> > > language is the best one to attract local users and fans, then
> > developers.
> > > We
> > > shouldn't force "users" how to communicate between them, actually
> nothing
> > > we can do. For example, there's QQ group for Kylin which is very active
> > who
> > > are discussing and exchanging ideas over there. What can we do? Try to
> > > leading discussion to mailing list and never answer detail question
> there
> > > but
> > > will do in mailing list. But that's not said people will coming to
> > mailing
> > > list
> > > because they already could help each other.
> > >
> > > Actually, most of Apache projects have QQ or WeChat group(s) in China.
> > > For example, there are hundreds Spark groups each one has 500 people
> and
> > > more in QQ groups.
> > >
> > > One more reference, I just got to know today there's one popular Hadoop
> > > WeChat Official Account ("official account' is WeChat's product,
> > something
> > > like channel/blog...) who has 20,000 subscribers. And it's just one of
> > such
> > > accounts...
> > >
> > > Then my question is are PPMCs willing to engage them?
> > >
> > > Why Chinese?
> > > To engage the biggest developer community of the world, no matter
> where's
> > > project coming from.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best Regards!
> > > ---------------------
> > >
> > > Luke Han
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gunnar Tapper <
> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps it would be a good idea to separate user lists from other
> > lists?
> > > I
> > > > was specifically referring to users wanting to ask questions and to
> get
> > > > help. The support side if you will.
> > > >
> > > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate
> means
> > to
> > > > communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it.
> > > So, I
> > > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group
> so
> > > > that others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe
> > > that
> > > > was the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere
> than
> > > shut
> > > > it down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> > > >
> > > > As mention, I prefer to use e-mail lists but it seems that users
> aren't
> > > > comfortable with that. I'm hoping that people in China can help
> > identify
> > > > what would work for those users.
> > > >
> > > > I have similar issues with documentation but I'll open a separate
> > > > discussion thread on that topic.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Gunnar
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Jeff Genender <
> jgenender@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> > > >> international language, not because its the most used in the world.
> > > Thus
> > > >> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I
> > > think
> > > >> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross
> > > borders
> > > >> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can
> > tell
> > > you
> > > >> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run
> into
> > > >> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> > > >> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the
> > > discussion
> > > >> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who
> you
> > > want
> > > >> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> > > >>
> > > >> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
> > doesn’t
> > > >> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.
> This
> > > >> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the
> project
> > > when
> > > >> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses
> any
> > > >> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.
> In
> > > the
> > > >> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation
> PMC
> > > or,
> > > >> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a
> proper
> > > >> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the
> language.
> > > >>
> > > >> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> > > >> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my
> .02
> > is
> > > >> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about
> > community
> > > >> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If
> > you
> > > >> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe
> > > that
> > > >> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I
> > > think
> > > >> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ
> a
> > > >> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> > > >> interested in why.
> > > >>
> > > >> Just my usual .02.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jeff
> > > >>
> > > >> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <to...@spicule.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
> > > about
> > > >> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> > > >> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
> > never
> > > >> happened" didn't mention the language.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how
> would
> > > non
> > > >> Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> > > >> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> > > >> > Adding members@
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> > > <mailto:
> > > >> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that
> > consist
> > > >> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or
> put
> > it
> > > >> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must
> be
> > > in
> > > >> > > English?
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English,
> as
> > > >> English
> > > >> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
> > software
> > > >> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of
> proficiency
> > > >> when it
> > > >> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
> > > much
> > > >> lower
> > > >> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to
> learn
> > > >> English
> > > >> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will
> also
> > > >> exclude
> > > >> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number
> > of
> > > >> native
> > > >> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> > > >> according
> > > >> > > to Wikipedia.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
> > countries,
> > > >> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org
> > > >> <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >> Hi Gunnar,
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem
> (maybe
> > > not
> > > >> > >> real,
> > > >> > >> but just
> > > >> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all
> > contributions
> > > >> from
> > > >> > >> China,
> > > >> > >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from
> Chinese
> > > and
> > > >> LABEL
> > > >> > >> for such
> > > >> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
> > > >> "issue" to
> > > >> > >> describe like
> > > >> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution
> > or
> > > >> > >> others...
> > > >> > >> that's not right way.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they
> are
> > > >> > >> contributing to
> > > >> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very
> > much,
> > > >> > >> involved
> > > >> > >> in many
> > > >> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31
> > days
> > > >> > >> mailing
> > > >> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org <http://lists.apache.org/>
> > > [1]:
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> > > >> > >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> > > >> > >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> > > >> > >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> > > >> > >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> > > >> > >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> > > >> > >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these
> > projects,
> > > >> you
> > > >> > >> could check
> > > >> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within
> mailing
> > > >> list.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out
> a
> > > way
> > > >> to
> > > >> > >> access
> > > >> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
> > > >> speakers,
> > > >> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the
> > Apache
> > > >> Way.
> > > >> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate
> global
> > > >> > >> community, and try
> > > >> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have
> the
> > > >> patience
> > > >> > >> for
> > > >> > >> those new comers.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know
> our
> > > >> journey,
> > > >> > >> our experience
> > > >> > >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> > > >> > >> challenges...through
> > > >> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also
> > helping
> > > >> many
> > > >> > >> potential projects
> > > >> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like
> "Help
> > > >> > >> Trafodion
> > > >> > >> community"
> > > >> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
> > > >> Trafodion
> > > >> > >> PMC
> > > >> > >> know
> > > >> > >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
> > > >> articles,
> > > >> > >> session recordings and
> > > >> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to
> face
> > > >> > >> discussion
> > > >> > >> if necessary:-)
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>  <
> > > >> https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>>
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> > > >> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > > >> > >> wrote:
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> > Hi,
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of
> > > contribution
> > > >> from
> > > >> > >> > China.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors
> aren't
> > > that
> > > >> > >> active
> > > >> > >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ
> > communicating
> > > in
> > > >> > >> > Chinese.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's
> > hard
> > > >> not to
> > > >> > >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
> > > >> questions etc
> > > >> > >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
> > > >> forward,
> > > >> > >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that
> > > members
> > > >> in
> > > >> > >> China
> > > >> > >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication
> > > >> issues like
> > > >> > >> > this.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Thanks,
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Gunnar
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <
> > > >> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <ma...@microsoft.com>>
> > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a
> > couple
> > > of
> > > >> > >> years
> > > >> > >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open
> > > >> source
> > > >> > >> beyond
> > > >> > >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact
> finding
> > > >> trip to
> > > >> > >> > China.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I
> > talked
> > > >> to. We
> > > >> > >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
> > > >> involved
> > > >> > >> with
> > > >> > >> > this proposal.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this
> > > project
> > > >> and
> > > >> > >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the
> foundation.
> > We
> > > >> will
> > > >> > >> need
> > > >> > >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other
> > China
> > > >> born
> > > >> > >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences
> that
> > we
> > > >> need
> > > >> > >> to
> > > >> > >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
> > > >> foundation
> > > >> > >> and as
> > > >> > >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way.
> Having
> > > met
> > > >> some
> > > >> > >> of
> > > >> > >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors
> > the
> > > >> > >> project
> > > >> > >> > can succeed.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Ross
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > ---
> > > >> > >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > ________________________________
> > > >> > >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:
> > > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>>
> > > >> > >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> > > >> > >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org <mailto:
> > general@incubator.apac
> > > >> he.org>
> > > >> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Hi John,
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> > > >> constructive
> > > >> > >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and
> > > >> project
> > > >> > >> using
> > > >> > >> > your suggestions.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by
> Von
> > > >> Gosling,
> > > >> > >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to
> the
> > > >> Github
> > > >> > >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity'
> > the
> > > >> history
> > > >> > >> > was
> > > >> > >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that
> someone's
> > > >> git-fu
> > > >> > >> went
> > > >> > >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed.
> > Von
> > > >> also
> > > >> > >> gives
> > > >> > >> > further explanation of the project history in a response
> below.
> > > >> Indeed,
> > > >> > >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen
> before
> > > >> with
> > > >> > >> git),
> > > >> > >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to
> > > >> improve
> > > >> > >> and
> > > >> > >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising,
> > > since
> > > >> > >> Bruce is
> > > >> > >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the
> ASF
> > > >> exist
> > > >> > >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs
> good
> > > >> mentors,
> > > >> > >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
> > > >> interest in
> > > >> > >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest
> > in
> > > >> > >> continuing
> > > >> > >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15
> > years
> > > >> > >> experience
> > > >> > >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one
> project
> > > >> over
> > > >> > >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to
> collaborate
> > > >> > >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a
> > > >> community of
> > > >> > >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow.
> The
> > > ASF
> > > >> is an
> > > >> > >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn
> from
> > > new
> > > >> > >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code
> and
> > > >> stay for
> > > >> > >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new
> > > >> project and
> > > >> > >> > people to the ASF.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> > > >> > >> suggestions
> > > >> > >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
> > > >> proposal.
> > > >> > >> Even
> > > >> > >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also
> > be
> > > >> great
> > > >> > >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project
> > > moving
> > > >> > >> forward.
> > > >> > >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects
> > you
> > > >> > >> mentioned
> > > >> > >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
> > > >> RocketMQ
> > > >> > >> code
> > > >> > >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by
> > John
> > > >> with
> > > >> > >> his
> > > >> > >> > thoughts:
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following
> two
> > > >> questions
> > > >> > >> > specifically:
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > > >> communities
> > > >> > >> to
> > > >> > >> > build cross platform clients?
> > > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby
> as
> > > >> backend
> > > >> > >> > persistence stores?
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Bruce
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
> > > >> john.d.ament@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> > > >> roman@shaposhnik.org <ma...@shaposhnik.org>
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > wrote:
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly
> > > concerned
> > > >> > >> about:
> > > >> > >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> > > >> > >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> > > >> > >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> > > >> http://40microsoft.com/>%
> > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> > > >> > >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge
> > blobs
> > > >> of
> > > >> > >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
> > > >> committers
> > > >> > >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot
> > of
> > > >> time
> > > >> > >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
> > > >> prevails.
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the
> > statement:
> > > >> > >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > > >> > >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as
> > well.
> > > >> I
> > > >> > >> > suspect
> > > >> > >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source
> > development
> > > >> on the
> > > >> > >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other
> > apache
> > > >> > >> products"
> > > >> > >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
> > > >> competes
> > > >> > >> with
> > > >> > >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is
> the
> > > >> chair of
> > > >> > >> one
> > > >> > >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has
> > synergies
> > > >> with
> > > >> > >> the
> > > >> > >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects
> > > >> today in
> > > >> > >> > their
> > > >> > >> > > code base.
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > > >> > >> communities
> > > >> > >> > to
> > > >> > >> > > build cross platform clients?
> > > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby
> > as
> > > >> backend
> > > >> > >> > > persistence stores?
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > etc..
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > Thanks,
> > > >> > >> > > > Roman.
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> > > >> > >> brianm@skife.org <ma...@skife.org>>
> > > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > > +1 !
> > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <
> > > >> jim@jagunet.com <ma...@jagunet.com>>
> > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> Cool.
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >> +1
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> > > >> > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator
> > podling
> > > >> named
> > > >> > >> > > Apache
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> > > >> distributed,
> > > >> > >> > easy
> > > >> > >> > > > to
> > > >> > >> > > > >> use
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for
> processing
> > > >> large
> > > >> > >> > amounts
> > > >> > >> > > > of
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the
> > > >> following
> > > >> > >> URL:
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protect
> > > >> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <https://na01.safelinks.protec
> > > >> tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%>
> > > >> > >> 2F%
> > > >> > >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>%2F
> > > >> incubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> > > >> > >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/
> > > >%7Cd1
> > > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> > > >> 036&sdata=
> > > >> > >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > Bruce
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >> ------------------------------
> > > >> ------------------------------
> > > >> > >> > ---------
> > > >> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > > >> apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> > > >> > >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > >> general-help@incubator.apache.
> > > >> > >> org
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > ------------------------------
> > ------------------------------
> > > >> > >> ---------
> > > >> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > > >> apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> > > >> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > >> general-help@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general-help@incubator
> > > >> .apache.org>
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > --
> > > >> > >> > perl -e 'print
> > > >> > >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
> > > >> "YC;VT*"
> > > >> > >> );'
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect
> > > >> ion.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protec
> > > >> tion.outlook.com/?url=>
> > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> > > >> > >> icrosoft.com <http://icrosoft.com/>%
> > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> > > >> > >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> > > >> > >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40mi
> > > >> crosoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>
> > > >> > >> %
> > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > > 9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> > > >> > >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <
> > https://na01.safelinks
> > > <
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks/>.
> > > >> > >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& <
> > > >> http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&>
> > > >> > >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> > > >> http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd12890186efe4c
> > > >> > >> 6e60c908d40597
> > > >> > >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> > > >> > >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > > >> > >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> > > >> > >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> <
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> > > >> > >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/
> >%7Cd1
> > > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> > > >> 036&sdata=
> > > >> > >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&
> reserved=0
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Gunnar
> > > > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> >
>



-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Luke Han <lu...@gmail.com>]

Hi Gunnar,

> Given your statistics, I think there is:
> "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when there's
> a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> invisible to the rest of us.

     I think maybe I'm not bring message so clearly, let me try again:
     Such account is not a GROUP, it's something like twitter account which
has 20k followers where the author sharing experiences, samples and
anything else...to help to educate users, help to grow up local
communities. I have to say, such account helped a lot for ASF projects'
adoption in China. Back to QQ group, something like Google Group which
everybody could create in seconds.

     Is that Trafodion QQ group created and managed by Trafodion PMC or
someone else? Did your PMCs make decision over there, or just users who
asking questions over there? If "it's invisible to the rest of us" means
decision has been made by your PMCs in QQ group but not in mailing
list...that's really problem and you have to raise to PPMC/IPMC.

     But if it's about user group, there are many local communities
everywhere for sure using different languages, in Chinese, in Spanish, in
Japanese...could we know everything from there? For example, did Hadoop
report include activities from Hortonworks/Cloudera hosted forum, twitter
accounts or Facebook pages "like" number or any other online forums/groups?
They are really user communities too.

      I just shared my experience with you in last reply about how we
handle that...hope it could help you to understand what you could do. And
also brought some facts how user communities formed, operated and what we
have did. And brought some data from different Apache projects, obviously
it's not "an Apache-wide issue that needs to be addressed".

      I'm not argue with you about "Which language is better" or "mailing
list vs QQ/Google Group", I just want to help you to figure the root cause
of your original "struggle" problem.

      But I'm not very agree with you raised such discussion after a new
incubator project proposal (and just changed the subject name)...looks like
we are really not friendly to new comers especially from a different, non
native English speaking (actually most of talent engineers are well
educated with English in China) and different culture world...the team is
so "scary" and asked us many times like "will they cancel the vote? do they
really welcome our project?..." when they saw this thread?

      And, let's focus on your really issue, maybe we could help you:)

      Thanks.

Luke



Best Regards!
---------------------

Luke Han

On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Luke:
>
> This question was originally asked on the incubator list. The members list
> was added somewhere on the line.
>
> Part of the incubator challenge is to show community growth. In the past, a
> good metric seems to have been to check interaction on the mailing lists;
> for example, on the user list.
>
> As you note, China changes this equation forming communities on QQ, WeChat,
> and other places I'm probably not aware of. This means that there can be a
> thriving user community that the PMC may or may not be aware of. So, how to
> we assess community involvement that bypass the Apache "everything happens
> on the mailing lists" principle?
>
> Like you noted, it's easy to translate questions and respond to questions
> in English. The Trafodion project does that, no problems. But, most of the
> discussion in China happen on the alternative forums with the project's
> Chinese speakers contributors participating. So, for Trafodion
> specifically, I can ask those contributors to provide participation
> statistics so that I can include the information in the next report.
>
> However, I was trying to figure out whether there's an Apache-wide issue
> that needs to be addressed. Given your statistics, I think there is:
> "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when there's
> a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> invisible to the rest of us.
>
> So, let's think about this from a community building perspective. The
> traditional way of mailing lists is now being augmented by WeChat, QQ, etc.
> in an organic fashion. I'd argue that you don't want to police organic
> growth but rather embrace it so that you can get insights into what's going
> on.
>
> Assuming that people agree that it's important to bridge the communities,
> I'd start with something simple: how can we find out what communities exist
> in the different Chinese forums, membership, and activity. Shy of learning
> Chinese that is. :)
>
> My next question is: how can we help those communities? What would make
> Apache usage grow even more? For Trafodion, I simply pointed to the QQ
> group but that seems way too little...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Luke Han <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means
> > > to communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about
> it.
> > So, I
> > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
> > that
> > > others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe that
> was
> > > the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than shut
> > it > down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> >
> > And for "invisible to the project", are you talking about PMCs or Users?
> > That's totally different arguments.
> >
> > Would like to share our experience which may help to bring some ideas for
> > you. At the beginning, there were many people came to Kylin mailing list
> > and
> > asked questions in Chinese, but our PMC (most of them are Chinese too)
> had
> > tried their best to help to translate to English, again and again. And we
> > tried to convince people who we knew to ask question in English. And we
> > have a
> > simple rule for our PMCs to answer question in English no matter which
> > Language
> > of the question.
> > Not easy for everybody, but finally it works. The point is your PMCs
> should
> > keep discussion in mailing list, in English.  And then to influent others
> > who
> > want to participate, contribute and use this open source project.
> >
> > Why English?
> > It's only way to cross board for global adoption.
> >
> >
> > On the other hand, from user perspective, they really would like to learn
> > and
> > try new technology with their native language so that they could
> understand
> > quickly and deeply, people may give up if their English is not good
> enough
> > at that time...then they asking question in their native Language is the
> > right
> > thing they should to do to get help.
> >
> > For projects coming from non-English developer community, the native
> > language is the best one to attract local users and fans, then
> developers.
> > We
> > shouldn't force "users" how to communicate between them, actually nothing
> > we can do. For example, there's QQ group for Kylin which is very active
> who
> > are discussing and exchanging ideas over there. What can we do? Try to
> > leading discussion to mailing list and never answer detail question there
> > but
> > will do in mailing list. But that's not said people will coming to
> mailing
> > list
> > because they already could help each other.
> >
> > Actually, most of Apache projects have QQ or WeChat group(s) in China.
> > For example, there are hundreds Spark groups each one has 500 people and
> > more in QQ groups.
> >
> > One more reference, I just got to know today there's one popular Hadoop
> > WeChat Official Account ("official account' is WeChat's product,
> something
> > like channel/blog...) who has 20,000 subscribers. And it's just one of
> such
> > accounts...
> >
> > Then my question is are PPMCs willing to engage them?
> >
> > Why Chinese?
> > To engage the biggest developer community of the world, no matter where's
> > project coming from.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Best Regards!
> > ---------------------
> >
> > Luke Han
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Perhaps it would be a good idea to separate user lists from other
> lists?
> > I
> > > was specifically referring to users wanting to ask questions and to get
> > > help. The support side if you will.
> > >
> > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means
> to
> > > communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it.
> > So, I
> > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
> > > that others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe
> > that
> > > was the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than
> > shut
> > > it down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> > >
> > > As mention, I prefer to use e-mail lists but it seems that users aren't
> > > comfortable with that. I'm hoping that people in China can help
> identify
> > > what would work for those users.
> > >
> > > I have similar issues with documentation but I'll open a separate
> > > discussion thread on that topic.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> > >> international language, not because its the most used in the world.
> > Thus
> > >> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I
> > think
> > >> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross
> > borders
> > >> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can
> tell
> > you
> > >> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> > >> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> > >> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the
> > discussion
> > >> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you
> > want
> > >> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> > >>
> > >> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
> doesn’t
> > >> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
> > >> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project
> > when
> > >> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> > >> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In
> > the
> > >> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC
> > or,
> > >> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> > >> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> > >>
> > >> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> > >> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02
> is
> > >> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about
> community
> > >> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If
> you
> > >> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe
> > that
> > >> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I
> > think
> > >> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> > >> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> > >> interested in why.
> > >>
> > >> Just my usual .02.
> > >>
> > >> Jeff
> > >>
> > >> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <to...@spicule.co.uk> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
> > about
> > >> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> > >> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > >> >
> > >> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
> never
> > >> happened" didn't mention the language.
> > >> >
> > >> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would
> > non
> > >> Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> > >> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> > >> > Adding members@
> > >> >
> > >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> > <mailto:
> > >> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that
> consist
> > >> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put
> it
> > >> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be
> > in
> > >> > > English?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> > >> English
> > >> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
> software
> > >> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
> > >> when it
> > >> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
> > much
> > >> lower
> > >> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> > >> English
> > >> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> > >> exclude
> > >> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number
> of
> > >> native
> > >> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> > >> according
> > >> > > to Wikipedia.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
> countries,
> > >> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org
> > >> <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> Hi Gunnar,
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe
> > not
> > >> > >> real,
> > >> > >> but just
> > >> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all
> contributions
> > >> from
> > >> > >> China,
> > >> > >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese
> > and
> > >> LABEL
> > >> > >> for such
> > >> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
> > >> "issue" to
> > >> > >> describe like
> > >> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution
> or
> > >> > >> others...
> > >> > >> that's not right way.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> > >> > >> contributing to
> > >> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very
> much,
> > >> > >> involved
> > >> > >> in many
> > >> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31
> days
> > >> > >> mailing
> > >> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org <http://lists.apache.org/>
> > [1]:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> > >> > >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> > >> > >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> > >> > >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> > >> > >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> > >> > >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> > >> > >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these
> projects,
> > >> you
> > >> > >> could check
> > >> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
> > >> list.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a
> > way
> > >> to
> > >> > >> access
> > >> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
> > >> speakers,
> > >> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the
> Apache
> > >> Way.
> > >> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> > >> > >> community, and try
> > >> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> > >> patience
> > >> > >> for
> > >> > >> those new comers.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> > >> journey,
> > >> > >> our experience
> > >> > >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> > >> > >> challenges...through
> > >> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also
> helping
> > >> many
> > >> > >> potential projects
> > >> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> > >> > >> Trafodion
> > >> > >> community"
> > >> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
> > >> Trafodion
> > >> > >> PMC
> > >> > >> know
> > >> > >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
> > >> articles,
> > >> > >> session recordings and
> > >> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> > >> > >> discussion
> > >> > >> if necessary:-)
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>  <
> > >> https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> > >> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > >> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> > Hi,
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of
> > contribution
> > >> from
> > >> > >> > China.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't
> > that
> > >> > >> active
> > >> > >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ
> communicating
> > in
> > >> > >> > Chinese.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's
> hard
> > >> not to
> > >> > >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
> > >> questions etc
> > >> > >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
> > >> forward,
> > >> > >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that
> > members
> > >> in
> > >> > >> China
> > >> > >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication
> > >> issues like
> > >> > >> > this.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Thanks,
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Gunnar
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <
> > >> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <ma...@microsoft.com>>
> > >> > >> > wrote:
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a
> couple
> > of
> > >> > >> years
> > >> > >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open
> > >> source
> > >> > >> beyond
> > >> > >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding
> > >> trip to
> > >> > >> > China.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I
> talked
> > >> to. We
> > >> > >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
> > >> involved
> > >> > >> with
> > >> > >> > this proposal.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this
> > project
> > >> and
> > >> > >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation.
> We
> > >> will
> > >> > >> need
> > >> > >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other
> China
> > >> born
> > >> > >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that
> we
> > >> need
> > >> > >> to
> > >> > >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
> > >> foundation
> > >> > >> and as
> > >> > >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having
> > met
> > >> some
> > >> > >> of
> > >> > >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors
> the
> > >> > >> project
> > >> > >> > can succeed.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Ross
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > ---
> > >> > >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > ________________________________
> > >> > >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:
> > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>>
> > >> > >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> > >> > >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org <mailto:
> general@incubator.apac
> > >> he.org>
> > >> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Hi John,
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> > >> constructive
> > >> > >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and
> > >> project
> > >> > >> using
> > >> > >> > your suggestions.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
> > >> Gosling,
> > >> > >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the
> > >> Github
> > >> > >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity'
> the
> > >> history
> > >> > >> > was
> > >> > >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's
> > >> git-fu
> > >> > >> went
> > >> > >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed.
> Von
> > >> also
> > >> > >> gives
> > >> > >> > further explanation of the project history in a response below.
> > >> Indeed,
> > >> > >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before
> > >> with
> > >> > >> git),
> > >> > >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to
> > >> improve
> > >> > >> and
> > >> > >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising,
> > since
> > >> > >> Bruce is
> > >> > >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF
> > >> exist
> > >> > >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
> > >> mentors,
> > >> > >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
> > >> interest in
> > >> > >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest
> in
> > >> > >> continuing
> > >> > >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15
> years
> > >> > >> experience
> > >> > >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project
> > >> over
> > >> > >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> > >> > >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a
> > >> community of
> > >> > >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The
> > ASF
> > >> is an
> > >> > >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from
> > new
> > >> > >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and
> > >> stay for
> > >> > >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new
> > >> project and
> > >> > >> > people to the ASF.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> > >> > >> suggestions
> > >> > >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
> > >> proposal.
> > >> > >> Even
> > >> > >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also
> be
> > >> great
> > >> > >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project
> > moving
> > >> > >> forward.
> > >> > >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects
> you
> > >> > >> mentioned
> > >> > >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
> > >> RocketMQ
> > >> > >> code
> > >> > >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by
> John
> > >> with
> > >> > >> his
> > >> > >> > thoughts:
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
> > >> questions
> > >> > >> > specifically:
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > >> communities
> > >> > >> to
> > >> > >> > build cross platform clients?
> > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> > >> backend
> > >> > >> > persistence stores?
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Bruce
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
> > >> john.d.ament@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > >> > >> > wrote:
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> > >> roman@shaposhnik.org <ma...@shaposhnik.org>
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly
> > concerned
> > >> > >> about:
> > >> > >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> > >> > >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> > >> > >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> > >> http://40microsoft.com/>%
> > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> > >> > >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> > >> > >> > > >
> > >> > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge
> blobs
> > >> of
> > >> > >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
> > >> committers
> > >> > >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot
> of
> > >> time
> > >> > >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
> > >> prevails.
> > >> > >> > > >
> > >> > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the
> statement:
> > >> > >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > >> > >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> > >> > >> > > >
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as
> well.
> > >> I
> > >> > >> > suspect
> > >> > >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source
> development
> > >> on the
> > >> > >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other
> apache
> > >> > >> products"
> > >> > >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
> > >> competes
> > >> > >> with
> > >> > >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the
> > >> chair of
> > >> > >> one
> > >> > >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has
> synergies
> > >> with
> > >> > >> the
> > >> > >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects
> > >> today in
> > >> > >> > their
> > >> > >> > > code base.
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > >> > >> communities
> > >> > >> > to
> > >> > >> > > build cross platform clients?
> > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby
> as
> > >> backend
> > >> > >> > > persistence stores?
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > etc..
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > >
> > >> > >> > > > Thanks,
> > >> > >> > > > Roman.
> > >> > >> > > >
> > >> > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> > >> > >> brianm@skife.org <ma...@skife.org>>
> > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > >> > >> > > > > +1 !
> > >> > >> > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <
> > >> jim@jagunet.com <ma...@jagunet.com>>
> > >> > >> > wrote:
> > >> > >> > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > >> Cool.
> > >> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > >> > > > >> +1
> > >> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> > >> > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator
> podling
> > >> named
> > >> > >> > > Apache
> > >> > >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> > >> distributed,
> > >> > >> > easy
> > >> > >> > > > to
> > >> > >> > > > >> use
> > >> > >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing
> > >> large
> > >> > >> > amounts
> > >> > >> > > > of
> > >> > >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the
> > >> following
> > >> > >> URL:
> > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protect
> > >> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <https://na01.safelinks.protec
> > >> tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%>
> > >> > >> 2F%
> > >> > >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>%2F
> > >> incubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> > >> > >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/
> > >%7Cd1
> > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> > >> 036&sdata=
> > >> > >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > >> > > > >> > Bruce
> > >> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > >> > > > >> ------------------------------
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >> > >> > ---------
> > >> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > >> apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> > >> > >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > >> general-help@incubator.apache.
> > >> > >> org
> > >> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > >> > > >
> > >> > >> > > > ------------------------------
> ------------------------------
> > >> > >> ---------
> > >> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > >> apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> > >> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > >> general-help@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general-help@incubator
> > >> .apache.org>
> > >> > >> > > >
> > >> > >> > > >
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > --
> > >> > >> > perl -e 'print
> > >> > >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
> > >> "YC;VT*"
> > >> > >> );'
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect
> > >> ion.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protec
> > >> tion.outlook.com/?url=>
> > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> > >> > >> icrosoft.com <http://icrosoft.com/>%
> > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> > >> > >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> > >> > >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40mi
> > >> crosoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>
> > >> > >> %
> > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > 9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> > >> > >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <
> https://na01.safelinks
> > <
> > >> https://na01.safelinks/>.
> > >> > >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& <
> > >> http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&>
> > >> > >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> > >> http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd12890186efe4c
> > >> > >> 6e60c908d40597
> > >> > >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> > >> > >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > >> > >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> > >> > >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> > >> > >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd1
> > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> > >> 036&sdata=
> > >> > >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Gunnar
> > > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>]

Hi Luke:

This question was originally asked on the incubator list. The members list
was added somewhere on the line.

Part of the incubator challenge is to show community growth. In the past, a
good metric seems to have been to check interaction on the mailing lists;
for example, on the user list.

As you note, China changes this equation forming communities on QQ, WeChat,
and other places I'm probably not aware of. This means that there can be a
thriving user community that the PMC may or may not be aware of. So, how to
we assess community involvement that bypass the Apache "everything happens
on the mailing lists" principle?

Like you noted, it's easy to translate questions and respond to questions
in English. The Trafodion project does that, no problems. But, most of the
discussion in China happen on the alternative forums with the project's
Chinese speakers contributors participating. So, for Trafodion
specifically, I can ask those contributors to provide participation
statistics so that I can include the information in the next report.

However, I was trying to figure out whether there's an Apache-wide issue
that needs to be addressed. Given your statistics, I think there is:
"everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when there's
a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
invisible to the rest of us.

So, let's think about this from a community building perspective. The
traditional way of mailing lists is now being augmented by WeChat, QQ, etc.
in an organic fashion. I'd argue that you don't want to police organic
growth but rather embrace it so that you can get insights into what's going
on.

Assuming that people agree that it's important to bridge the communities,
I'd start with something simple: how can we find out what communities exist
in the different Chinese forums, membership, and activity. Shy of learning
Chinese that is. :)

My next question is: how can we help those communities? What would make
Apache usage grow even more? For Trafodion, I simply pointed to the QQ
group but that seems way too little...

Thanks,

Gunnar



On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Luke Han <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means
> > to communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it.
> So, I
> > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
> that
> > others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe that was
> > the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than shut
> it > down with a "use our mailing lists only."
>
> And for "invisible to the project", are you talking about PMCs or Users?
> That's totally different arguments.
>
> Would like to share our experience which may help to bring some ideas for
> you. At the beginning, there were many people came to Kylin mailing list
> and
> asked questions in Chinese, but our PMC (most of them are Chinese too) had
> tried their best to help to translate to English, again and again. And we
> tried to convince people who we knew to ask question in English. And we
> have a
> simple rule for our PMCs to answer question in English no matter which
> Language
> of the question.
> Not easy for everybody, but finally it works. The point is your PMCs should
> keep discussion in mailing list, in English.  And then to influent others
> who
> want to participate, contribute and use this open source project.
>
> Why English?
> It's only way to cross board for global adoption.
>
>
> On the other hand, from user perspective, they really would like to learn
> and
> try new technology with their native language so that they could understand
> quickly and deeply, people may give up if their English is not good enough
> at that time...then they asking question in their native Language is the
> right
> thing they should to do to get help.
>
> For projects coming from non-English developer community, the native
> language is the best one to attract local users and fans, then developers.
> We
> shouldn't force "users" how to communicate between them, actually nothing
> we can do. For example, there's QQ group for Kylin which is very active who
> are discussing and exchanging ideas over there. What can we do? Try to
> leading discussion to mailing list and never answer detail question there
> but
> will do in mailing list. But that's not said people will coming to mailing
> list
> because they already could help each other.
>
> Actually, most of Apache projects have QQ or WeChat group(s) in China.
> For example, there are hundreds Spark groups each one has 500 people and
> more in QQ groups.
>
> One more reference, I just got to know today there's one popular Hadoop
> WeChat Official Account ("official account' is WeChat's product, something
> like channel/blog...) who has 20,000 subscribers. And it's just one of such
> accounts...
>
> Then my question is are PPMCs willing to engage them?
>
> Why Chinese?
> To engage the biggest developer community of the world, no matter where's
> project coming from.
>
>
>
>
>
> Best Regards!
> ---------------------
>
> Luke Han
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Perhaps it would be a good idea to separate user lists from other lists?
> I
> > was specifically referring to users wanting to ask questions and to get
> > help. The support side if you will.
> >
> > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means to
> > communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it.
> So, I
> > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
> > that others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe
> that
> > was the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than
> shut
> > it down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> >
> > As mention, I prefer to use e-mail lists but it seems that users aren't
> > comfortable with that. I'm hoping that people in China can help identify
> > what would work for those users.
> >
> > I have similar issues with documentation but I'll open a separate
> > discussion thread on that topic.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> >> international language, not because its the most used in the world.
> Thus
> >> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I
> think
> >> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross
> borders
> >> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell
> you
> >> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> >> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> >> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the
> discussion
> >> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you
> want
> >> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> >>
> >> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t
> >> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
> >> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project
> when
> >> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> >> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In
> the
> >> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC
> or,
> >> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> >> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> >>
> >> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> >> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
> >> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
> >> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
> >> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe
> that
> >> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I
> think
> >> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> >> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> >> interested in why.
> >>
> >> Just my usual .02.
> >>
> >> Jeff
> >>
> >> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <to...@spicule.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
> about
> >> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> >> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> >> >
> >> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
> >> happened" didn't mention the language.
> >> >
> >> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would
> non
> >> Chinese speaking people follow development?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> >> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> >> > Adding members@
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> <mailto:
> >> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> >> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> >> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be
> in
> >> > > English?
> >> > >
> >> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> >> English
> >> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> >> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
> >> when it
> >> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
> much
> >> lower
> >> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> >> English
> >> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> >> > >
> >> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> >> exclude
> >> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
> >> native
> >> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> >> according
> >> > > to Wikipedia.
> >> > >
> >> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> >> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org
> >> <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Hi Gunnar,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe
> not
> >> > >> real,
> >> > >> but just
> >> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions
> >> from
> >> > >> China,
> >> > >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese
> and
> >> LABEL
> >> > >> for such
> >> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
> >> "issue" to
> >> > >> describe like
> >> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
> >> > >> others...
> >> > >> that's not right way.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> >> > >> contributing to
> >> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
> >> > >> involved
> >> > >> in many
> >> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
> >> > >> mailing
> >> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org <http://lists.apache.org/>
> [1]:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> >> > >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> >> > >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> >> > >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> >> > >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> >> > >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> >> > >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> >> > >>
> >> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects,
> >> you
> >> > >> could check
> >> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
> >> list.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a
> way
> >> to
> >> > >> access
> >> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
> >> speakers,
> >> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
> >> Way.
> >> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> >> > >> community, and try
> >> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> >> patience
> >> > >> for
> >> > >> those new comers.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> >> journey,
> >> > >> our experience
> >> > >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> >> > >> challenges...through
> >> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
> >> many
> >> > >> potential projects
> >> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> >> > >> Trafodion
> >> > >> community"
> >> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
> >> Trafodion
> >> > >> PMC
> >> > >> know
> >> > >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
> >> articles,
> >> > >> session recordings and
> >> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> >> > >> discussion
> >> > >> if necessary:-)
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>  <
> >> https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> >> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> >> > >> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > Hi,
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of
> contribution
> >> from
> >> > >> > China.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't
> that
> >> > >> active
> >> > >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating
> in
> >> > >> > Chinese.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard
> >> not to
> >> > >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
> >> questions etc
> >> > >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
> >> forward,
> >> > >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that
> members
> >> in
> >> > >> China
> >> > >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication
> >> issues like
> >> > >> > this.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Thanks,
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Gunnar
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <
> >> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <ma...@microsoft.com>>
> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple
> of
> >> > >> years
> >> > >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open
> >> source
> >> > >> beyond
> >> > >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding
> >> trip to
> >> > >> > China.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked
> >> to. We
> >> > >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
> >> involved
> >> > >> with
> >> > >> > this proposal.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this
> project
> >> and
> >> > >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We
> >> will
> >> > >> need
> >> > >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China
> >> born
> >> > >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we
> >> need
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
> >> foundation
> >> > >> and as
> >> > >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having
> met
> >> some
> >> > >> of
> >> > >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
> >> > >> project
> >> > >> > can succeed.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Ross
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > ---
> >> > >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > ________________________________
> >> > >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:
> >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>>
> >> > >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> >> > >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general@incubator.apac
> >> he.org>
> >> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Hi John,
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> >> constructive
> >> > >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and
> >> project
> >> > >> using
> >> > >> > your suggestions.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
> >> Gosling,
> >> > >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the
> >> Github
> >> > >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
> >> history
> >> > >> > was
> >> > >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's
> >> git-fu
> >> > >> went
> >> > >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von
> >> also
> >> > >> gives
> >> > >> > further explanation of the project history in a response below.
> >> Indeed,
> >> > >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before
> >> with
> >> > >> git),
> >> > >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to
> >> improve
> >> > >> and
> >> > >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising,
> since
> >> > >> Bruce is
> >> > >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF
> >> exist
> >> > >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
> >> mentors,
> >> > >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
> >> interest in
> >> > >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
> >> > >> continuing
> >> > >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
> >> > >> experience
> >> > >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project
> >> over
> >> > >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> >> > >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a
> >> community of
> >> > >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The
> ASF
> >> is an
> >> > >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from
> new
> >> > >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and
> >> stay for
> >> > >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new
> >> project and
> >> > >> > people to the ASF.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> >> > >> suggestions
> >> > >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
> >> proposal.
> >> > >> Even
> >> > >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be
> >> great
> >> > >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project
> moving
> >> > >> forward.
> >> > >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
> >> > >> mentioned
> >> > >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
> >> RocketMQ
> >> > >> code
> >> > >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John
> >> with
> >> > >> his
> >> > >> > thoughts:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
> >> questions
> >> > >> > specifically:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> >> communities
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> > build cross platform clients?
> >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> >> backend
> >> > >> > persistence stores?
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Bruce
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
> >> john.d.ament@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> >> roman@shaposhnik.org <ma...@shaposhnik.org>
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > > wrote:
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly
> concerned
> >> > >> about:
> >> > >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> >> > >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> >> > >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> >> http://40microsoft.com/>%
> >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> >> > >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs
> >> of
> >> > >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
> >> committers
> >> > >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of
> >> time
> >> > >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
> >> prevails.
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> >> > >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> >> > >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.
> >> I
> >> > >> > suspect
> >> > >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development
> >> on the
> >> > >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
> >> > >> products"
> >> > >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
> >> competes
> >> > >> with
> >> > >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the
> >> chair of
> >> > >> one
> >> > >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies
> >> with
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects
> >> today in
> >> > >> > their
> >> > >> > > code base.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> >> > >> communities
> >> > >> > to
> >> > >> > > build cross platform clients?
> >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> >> backend
> >> > >> > > persistence stores?
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > etc..
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > >> > > > Roman.
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> >> > >> brianm@skife.org <ma...@skife.org>>
> >> > >> > > > wrote:
> >> > >> > > > > +1 !
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <
> >> jim@jagunet.com <ma...@jagunet.com>>
> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > >> Cool.
> >> > >> > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > >> +1
> >> > >> > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> >> > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> >> > >> > > > wrote:
> >> > >> > > > >> >
> >> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling
> >> named
> >> > >> > > Apache
> >> > >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> >> distributed,
> >> > >> > easy
> >> > >> > > > to
> >> > >> > > > >> use
> >> > >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing
> >> large
> >> > >> > amounts
> >> > >> > > > of
> >> > >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> >> > >> > > > >> >
> >> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the
> >> following
> >> > >> URL:
> >> > >> > > > >> >
> >> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protect
> >> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <https://na01.safelinks.protec
> >> tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%>
> >> > >> 2F%
> >> > >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>%2F
> >> incubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> >> > >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/
> >%7Cd1
> >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> >> 036&sdata=
> >> > >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> >> > >> > > > >> >
> >> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> >> > >> > > > >> >
> >> > >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> >> > >> > > > >> >
> >> > >> > > > >> > Bruce
> >> > >> > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > >> ------------------------------
> >> ------------------------------
> >> > >> > ---------
> >> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> >> apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> >> > >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> >> general-help@incubator.apache.
> >> > >> org
> >> > >> > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > >>
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > >> ---------
> >> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> >> apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> >> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> >> general-help@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general-help@incubator
> >> .apache.org>
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > --
> >> > >> > perl -e 'print
> >> > >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
> >> "YC;VT*"
> >> > >> );'
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect
> >> ion.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protec
> >> tion.outlook.com/?url=>
> >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> >> > >> icrosoft.com <http://icrosoft.com/>%
> >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> >> > >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> >> > >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40mi
> >> crosoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>
> >> > >> %
> >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> 9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> >> > >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks
> <
> >> https://na01.safelinks/>.
> >> > >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& <
> >> http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&>
> >> > >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> >> http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd12890186efe4c
> >> > >> 6e60c908d40597
> >> > >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> >> > >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> > >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> >> > >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd1
> >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> >> 036&sdata=
> >> > >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> >> > >> >
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> >
>



-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Luke Han <lu...@gmail.com>]

> As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means
> to communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it.
So, I
> choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
that
> others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe that was
> the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than shut
it > down with a "use our mailing lists only."

And for "invisible to the project", are you talking about PMCs or Users?
That's totally different arguments.

Would like to share our experience which may help to bring some ideas for
you. At the beginning, there were many people came to Kylin mailing list
and
asked questions in Chinese, but our PMC (most of them are Chinese too) had
tried their best to help to translate to English, again and again. And we
tried to convince people who we knew to ask question in English. And we
have a
simple rule for our PMCs to answer question in English no matter which Language
of the question.
Not easy for everybody, but finally it works. The point is your PMCs should
keep discussion in mailing list, in English.  And then to influent others
who
want to participate, contribute and use this open source project.

Why English?
It's only way to cross board for global adoption.


On the other hand, from user perspective, they really would like to learn
and
try new technology with their native language so that they could understand
quickly and deeply, people may give up if their English is not good enough
at that time...then they asking question in their native Language is the
right
thing they should to do to get help.

For projects coming from non-English developer community, the native
language is the best one to attract local users and fans, then developers.
We
shouldn't force "users" how to communicate between them, actually nothing
we can do. For example, there's QQ group for Kylin which is very active who
are discussing and exchanging ideas over there. What can we do? Try to
leading discussion to mailing list and never answer detail question there
but
will do in mailing list. But that's not said people will coming to mailing
list
because they already could help each other.

Actually, most of Apache projects have QQ or WeChat group(s) in China.
For example, there are hundreds Spark groups each one has 500 people and
more in QQ groups.

One more reference, I just got to know today there's one popular Hadoop
WeChat Official Account ("official account' is WeChat's product, something
like channel/blog...) who has 20,000 subscribers. And it's just one of such
accounts...

Then my question is are PPMCs willing to engage them?

Why Chinese?
To engage the biggest developer community of the world, no matter where's
project coming from.





Best Regards!
---------------------

Luke Han

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Perhaps it would be a good idea to separate user lists from other lists? I
> was specifically referring to users wanting to ask questions and to get
> help. The support side if you will.
>
> As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means to
> communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it. So, I
> choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
> that others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe that
> was the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than shut
> it down with a "use our mailing lists only."
>
> As mention, I prefer to use e-mail lists but it seems that users aren't
> comfortable with that. I'm hoping that people in China can help identify
> what would work for those users.
>
> I have similar issues with documentation but I'll open a separate
> discussion thread on that topic.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
>> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
>> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
>> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
>> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
>> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
>> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
>> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
>> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
>> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
>>
>> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t
>> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
>> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when
>> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
>> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
>> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
>> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
>> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
>>
>> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
>> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
>> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
>> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
>> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
>> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
>> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
>> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
>> interested in why.
>>
>> Just my usual .02.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <to...@spicule.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about
>> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
>> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
>> >
>> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
>> happened" didn't mention the language.
>> >
>> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non
>> Chinese speaking people follow development?
>> >
>> >
>> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
>> > Adding members@
>> >
>> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
>> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
>> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
>> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
>> > > English?
>> > >
>> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
>> English
>> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
>> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
>> when it
>> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
>> lower
>> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
>> English
>> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>> > >
>> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
>> exclude
>> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
>> native
>> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
>> according
>> > > to Wikipedia.
>> > >
>> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
>> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org
>> <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Hi Gunnar,
>> > >>
>> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
>> > >> real,
>> > >> but just
>> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions
>> from
>> > >> China,
>> > >> or any other territories from all of the world.
>> > >>
>> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
>> LABEL
>> > >> for such
>> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
>> "issue" to
>> > >> describe like
>> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
>> > >> others...
>> > >> that's not right way.
>> > >>
>> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
>> > >> contributing to
>> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
>> > >> involved
>> > >> in many
>> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
>> > >>
>> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
>> > >> mailing
>> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org <http://lists.apache.org/> [1]:
>> > >>
>> > >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
>> > >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
>> > >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
>> > >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
>> > >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
>> > >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
>> > >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
>> > >>
>> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects,
>> you
>> > >> could check
>> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
>> list.
>> > >>
>> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way
>> to
>> > >> access
>> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
>> speakers,
>> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
>> Way.
>> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
>> > >> community, and try
>> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
>> patience
>> > >> for
>> > >> those new comers.
>> > >>
>> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
>> journey,
>> > >> our experience
>> > >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
>> > >> challenges...through
>> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
>> many
>> > >> potential projects
>> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
>> > >>
>> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
>> > >> Trafodion
>> > >> community"
>> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
>> Trafodion
>> > >> PMC
>> > >> know
>> > >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
>> articles,
>> > >> session recordings and
>> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
>> > >> discussion
>> > >> if necessary:-)
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>  <
>> https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
>> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> > Hi,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
>> from
>> > >> > China.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
>> > >> active
>> > >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
>> > >> > Chinese.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard
>> not to
>> > >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
>> questions etc
>> > >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
>> forward,
>> > >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members
>> in
>> > >> China
>> > >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication
>> issues like
>> > >> > this.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Thanks,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Gunnar
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <
>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <ma...@microsoft.com>>
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
>> > >> years
>> > >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open
>> source
>> > >> beyond
>> > >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding
>> trip to
>> > >> > China.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked
>> to. We
>> > >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
>> involved
>> > >> with
>> > >> > this proposal.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project
>> and
>> > >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We
>> will
>> > >> need
>> > >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China
>> born
>> > >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we
>> need
>> > >> to
>> > >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
>> foundation
>> > >> and as
>> > >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met
>> some
>> > >> of
>> > >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
>> > >> project
>> > >> > can succeed.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Ross
>> > >> >
>> > >> > ---
>> > >> > Twitter: @rgardler
>> > >> >
>> > >> > ________________________________
>> > >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:
>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>>
>> > >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
>> > >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general@incubator.apac
>> he.org>
>> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Hi John,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
>> constructive
>> > >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and
>> project
>> > >> using
>> > >> > your suggestions.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
>> Gosling,
>> > >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the
>> Github
>> > >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
>> history
>> > >> > was
>> > >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's
>> git-fu
>> > >> went
>> > >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von
>> also
>> > >> gives
>> > >> > further explanation of the project history in a response below.
>> Indeed,
>> > >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before
>> with
>> > >> git),
>> > >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to
>> improve
>> > >> and
>> > >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
>> > >> Bruce is
>> > >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF
>> exist
>> > >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
>> mentors,
>> > >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
>> interest in
>> > >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
>> > >> continuing
>> > >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
>> > >> experience
>> > >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project
>> over
>> > >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
>> > >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a
>> community of
>> > >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF
>> is an
>> > >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
>> > >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and
>> stay for
>> > >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new
>> project and
>> > >> > people to the ASF.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
>> > >> suggestions
>> > >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
>> proposal.
>> > >> Even
>> > >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be
>> great
>> > >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
>> > >> forward.
>> > >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
>> > >> mentioned
>> > >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
>> RocketMQ
>> > >> code
>> > >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John
>> with
>> > >> his
>> > >> > thoughts:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
>> questions
>> > >> > specifically:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>> communities
>> > >> to
>> > >> > build cross platform clients?
>> > >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
>> backend
>> > >> > persistence stores?
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Bruce
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
>> john.d.ament@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
>> roman@shaposhnik.org <ma...@shaposhnik.org>
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > wrote:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
>> > >> about:
>> > >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
>> > >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
>> > >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
>> http://40microsoft.com/>%
>> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
>> > >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs
>> of
>> > >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
>> committers
>> > >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of
>> time
>> > >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
>> prevails.
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
>> > >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
>> > >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.
>> I
>> > >> > suspect
>> > >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development
>> on the
>> > >> > > product and it was kept internal.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
>> > >> products"
>> > >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
>> competes
>> > >> with
>> > >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the
>> chair of
>> > >> one
>> > >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies
>> with
>> > >> the
>> > >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects
>> today in
>> > >> > their
>> > >> > > code base.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>> > >> communities
>> > >> > to
>> > >> > > build cross platform clients?
>> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
>> backend
>> > >> > > persistence stores?
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > etc..
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > Thanks,
>> > >> > > > Roman.
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
>> > >> brianm@skife.org <ma...@skife.org>>
>> > >> > > > wrote:
>> > >> > > > > +1 !
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <
>> jim@jagunet.com <ma...@jagunet.com>>
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > >> Cool.
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >> +1
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
>> > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
>> > >> > > > wrote:
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling
>> named
>> > >> > > Apache
>> > >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
>> distributed,
>> > >> > easy
>> > >> > > > to
>> > >> > > > >> use
>> > >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing
>> large
>> > >> > amounts
>> > >> > > > of
>> > >> > > > >> > streaming data.
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the
>> following
>> > >> URL:
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protect
>> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <https://na01.safelinks.protec
>> tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%>
>> > >> 2F%
>> > >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>%2F
>> incubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
>> > >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd1
>> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
>> 036&sdata=
>> > >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > Thanks,
>> > >> > > > >> >
>> > >> > > > >> > Bruce
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >> ------------------------------
>> ------------------------------
>> > >> > ---------
>> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
>> apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
>> > >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> general-help@incubator.apache.
>> > >> org
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > > >>
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >> ---------
>> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
>> apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
>> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
>> general-help@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general-help@incubator
>> .apache.org>
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > --
>> > >> > perl -e 'print
>> > >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
>> "YC;VT*"
>> > >> );'
>> > >> >
>> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect
>> ion.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protec
>> tion.outlook.com/?url=>
>> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
>> > >> icrosoft.com <http://icrosoft.com/>%
>> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
>> > >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
>> > >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
>> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40mi
>> crosoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>
>> > >> %
>> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
>> > >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks <
>> https://na01.safelinks/>.
>> > >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& <
>> http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&>
>> > >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
>> http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd12890186efe4c
>> > >> 6e60c908d40597
>> > >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>> > >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> > >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
>> > >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
>> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
>> > >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd1
>> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
>> 036&sdata=
>> > >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
> *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

Perhaps it would be a good idea to separate user lists from other lists? I
was specifically referring to users wanting to ask questions and to get
help. The support side if you will.

As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means to
communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it. So, I
choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
that others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe that
was the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than shut
it down with a "use our mailing lists only."

As mention, I prefer to use e-mail lists but it seems that users aren't
comfortable with that. I'm hoping that people in China can help identify
what would work for those users.

I have similar issues with documentation but I'll open a separate
discussion thread on that topic.

Thanks,

Gunnar

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org>
wrote:

> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
>
> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t
> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when
> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
>
> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> interested in why.
>
> Just my usual .02.
>
> Jeff
>
> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <to...@spicule.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about
> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> >
> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
> happened" didn't mention the language.
> >
> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non
> Chinese speaking people follow development?
> >
> >
> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> > Adding members@
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> >
> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> > > English?
> > >
> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> English
> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
> when it
> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
> lower
> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> English
> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > >
> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> exclude
> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
> native
> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> according
> > > to Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Gunnar,
> > >>
> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
> > >> real,
> > >> but just
> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions
> from
> > >> China,
> > >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> > >>
> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
> LABEL
> > >> for such
> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
> "issue" to
> > >> describe like
> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
> > >> others...
> > >> that's not right way.
> > >>
> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> > >> contributing to
> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
> > >> involved
> > >> in many
> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> > >>
> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
> > >> mailing
> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org <http://lists.apache.org/> [1]:
> > >>
> > >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> > >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> > >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> > >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> > >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> > >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> > >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> > >>
> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
> > >> could check
> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
> list.
> > >>
> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way
> to
> > >> access
> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
> speakers,
> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
> Way.
> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> > >> community, and try
> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> patience
> > >> for
> > >> those new comers.
> > >>
> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> journey,
> > >> our experience
> > >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> > >> challenges...through
> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
> many
> > >> potential projects
> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> > >>
> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> > >> Trafodion
> > >> community"
> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
> Trafodion
> > >> PMC
> > >> know
> > >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
> > >> session recordings and
> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> > >> discussion
> > >> if necessary:-)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>  <
> https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Hi,
> > >> >
> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> > >> >
> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
> from
> > >> > China.
> > >> >
> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
> > >> active
> > >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
> > >> > Chinese.
> > >> >
> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard
> not to
> > >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
> questions etc
> > >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> > >> >
> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
> > >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members
> in
> > >> China
> > >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues
> like
> > >> > this.
> > >> >
> > >> > Thanks,
> > >> >
> > >> > Gunnar
> > >> >
> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
> <ma...@microsoft.com>>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
> > >> years
> > >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
> > >> beyond
> > >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding
> trip to
> > >> > China.
> > >> >
> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked
> to. We
> > >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
> > >> with
> > >> > this proposal.
> > >> >
> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project
> and
> > >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We
> will
> > >> need
> > >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China
> born
> > >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we
> need
> > >> to
> > >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
> > >> and as
> > >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met
> some
> > >> of
> > >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
> > >> project
> > >> > can succeed.
> > >> >
> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> > >> >
> > >> > Ross
> > >> >
> > >> > ---
> > >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> > >> >
> > >> > ________________________________
> > >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:
> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>>
> > >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> > >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general@incubator.
> apache.org>
> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> > >> >
> > >> > Hi John,
> > >> >
> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> constructive
> > >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
> > >> using
> > >> > your suggestions.
> > >> >
> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
> Gosling,
> > >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the
> Github
> > >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
> history
> > >> > was
> > >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's
> git-fu
> > >> went
> > >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von
> also
> > >> gives
> > >> > further explanation of the project history in a response below.
> Indeed,
> > >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
> > >> git),
> > >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to
> improve
> > >> and
> > >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> > >> >
> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
> > >> Bruce is
> > >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF
> exist
> > >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
> mentors,
> > >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
> interest in
> > >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
> > >> continuing
> > >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
> > >> experience
> > >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
> > >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> > >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a community
> of
> > >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF
> is an
> > >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
> > >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and
> stay for
> > >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project
> and
> > >> > people to the ASF.
> > >> >
> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> > >> suggestions
> > >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
> proposal.
> > >> Even
> > >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be
> great
> > >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
> > >> forward.
> > >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
> > >> mentioned
> > >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
> RocketMQ
> > >> code
> > >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John
> with
> > >> his
> > >> > thoughts:
> > >> >
> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
> questions
> > >> > specifically:
> > >> >
> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> communities
> > >> to
> > >> > build cross platform clients?
> > >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> backend
> > >> > persistence stores?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Bruce
> > >> >
> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
> john.d.ament@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> roman@shaposhnik.org <ma...@shaposhnik.org>
> > >> >
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
> > >> about:
> > >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> > >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> > >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> http://40microsoft.com/>%
> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> > >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
> > >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
> committers
> > >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of
> time
> > >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
> prevails.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> > >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
> > >> > suspect
> > >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on
> the
> > >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
> > >> products"
> > >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
> competes
> > >> with
> > >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the
> chair of
> > >> one
> > >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies
> with
> > >> the
> > >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today
> in
> > >> > their
> > >> > > code base.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > >> communities
> > >> > to
> > >> > > build cross platform clients?
> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> backend
> > >> > > persistence stores?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > etc..
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Thanks,
> > >> > > > Roman.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> > >> brianm@skife.org <ma...@skife.org>>
> > >> > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > +1 !
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <
> jim@jagunet.com <ma...@jagunet.com>>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >> Cool.
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >> +1
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > >> > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling
> named
> > >> > > Apache
> > >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> distributed,
> > >> > easy
> > >> > > > to
> > >> > > > >> use
> > >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing
> large
> > >> > amounts
> > >> > > > of
> > >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the
> following
> > >> URL:
> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A% <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%>
> > >> 2F%
> > >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>%2Fincubator%
> 2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> > >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>%
> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > > > >> > Bruce
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > ---------
> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> > >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> general-help@incubator.apache.
> > >> org
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> ---------
> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > perl -e 'print
> > >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
> "YC;VT*"
> > >> );'
> > >> >
> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.
> protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.
> protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> > >> icrosoft.com <http://icrosoft.com/>%
> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> > >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> > >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40
> microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>
> > >> %
> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> > >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks <
> https://na01.safelinks/>.
> > >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& <
> http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&>
> > >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd12890186efe4c
> > >> 6e60c908d40597
> > >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> > >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> > >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> > >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>%
> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
>
>


-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Jeff Genender <jg...@apache.org>]

I would think that English is generally used because its the most international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want your users to be and how you want your product adopted.

In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project when they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or, the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.

I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be interested in why.

Just my usual .02.

Jeff

> On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <to...@spicule.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> 
> of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never happened" didn't mention the language.
> 
> Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non Chinese speaking people follow development?
> 
> 
> On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> Adding members@
> 
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> 
> > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> > English?
> >
> > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as English
> > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when it
> > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much lower
> > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn English
> > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> >
> > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also exclude
> > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of native
> > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 according
> > to Wikipedia.
> >
> > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Gunnar,
> >>
> >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
> >> real,
> >> but just
> >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
> >> China,
> >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> >>
> >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and LABEL
> >> for such
> >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of "issue" to
> >> describe like
> >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
> >> others...
> >> that's not right way.
> >>
> >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> >> contributing to
> >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
> >> involved
> >> in many
> >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> >>
> >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
> >> mailing
> >> list activity from lists.apache.org <http://lists.apache.org/> [1]:
> >>
> >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> >>
> >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
> >> could check
> >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
> >>
> >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
> >> access
> >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English speakers,
> >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache Way.
> >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> >> community, and try
> >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the patience
> >> for
> >> those new comers.
> >>
> >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our journey,
> >> our experience
> >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> >> challenges...through
> >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping many
> >> potential projects
> >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> >>
> >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> >> Trafodion
> >> community"
> >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion
> >> PMC
> >> know
> >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
> >> session recordings and
> >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> >> discussion
> >> if necessary:-)
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>  <https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> >> >
> >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution from
> >> > China.
> >> >
> >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
> >> active
> >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
> >> > Chinese.
> >> >
> >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not to
> >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions etc
> >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> >> >
> >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
> >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
> >> China
> >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues like
> >> > this.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Gunnar
> >> >
> >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <ma...@microsoft.com>>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
> >> years
> >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
> >> beyond
> >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip to
> >> > China.
> >> >
> >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to. We
> >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
> >> with
> >> > this proposal.
> >> >
> >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
> >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will
> >> need
> >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
> >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need
> >> to
> >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
> >> and as
> >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met some
> >> of
> >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
> >> project
> >> > can succeed.
> >> >
> >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> >> >
> >> > Ross
> >> >
> >> > ---
> >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> >> >
> >> > ________________________________
> >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> >> >
> >> > Hi John,
> >> >
> >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for constructive
> >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
> >> using
> >> > your suggestions.
> >> >
> >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von Gosling,
> >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
> >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the history
> >> > was
> >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
> >> went
> >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
> >> gives
> >> > further explanation of the project history in a response below. Indeed,
> >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
> >> git),
> >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve
> >> and
> >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> >> >
> >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
> >> Bruce is
> >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
> >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good mentors,
> >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest in
> >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
> >> continuing
> >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
> >> experience
> >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
> >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
> >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is an
> >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
> >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay for
> >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project and
> >> > people to the ASF.
> >> >
> >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> >> suggestions
> >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal.
> >> Even
> >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
> >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
> >> forward.
> >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
> >> mentioned
> >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
> >> code
> >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with
> >> his
> >> > thoughts:
> >> >
> >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two questions
> >> > specifically:
> >> >
> >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities
> >> to
> >> > build cross platform clients?
> >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> >> > persistence stores?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Bruce
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <roman@shaposhnik.org <ma...@shaposhnik.org>
> >> >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
> >> about:
> >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>%
> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >
> >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
> >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial committers
> >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
> >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
> >> > suspect
> >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on the
> >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
> >> products"
> >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
> >> with
> >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair of
> >> one
> >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with
> >> the
> >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
> >> > their
> >> > > code base.
> >> > >
> >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> >> > >
> >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> >> communities
> >> > to
> >> > > build cross platform clients?
> >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> >> > > persistence stores?
> >> > >
> >> > > etc..
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > Roman.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> >> brianm@skife.org <ma...@skife.org>>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > +1 !
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com <ma...@jagunet.com>>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >> Cool.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> +1
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named
> >> > > Apache
> >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed,
> >> > easy
> >> > > > to
> >> > > > >> use
> >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
> >> > amounts
> >> > > > of
> >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
> >> URL:
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%>
> >> 2F%
> >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Bruce
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > ---------
> >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> >> org
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ---------
> >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > perl -e 'print
> >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
> >> );'
> >> >
> >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> >> icrosoft.com <http://icrosoft.com/>%
> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>
> >> %
> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks <https://na01.safelinks/>.
> >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&>
> >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd12890186efe4c
> >> 6e60c908d40597
> >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Emilian Bold <em...@apache.org> wrote:
> I believe the working language[1] of ASF projects is English...

That's correct, so far, it's a far more concise way of expressing what
I was trying to say ;-)

The ASF is not currently able to provide oversight on projects using
other working languages.

-Bertrand

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Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Emilian Bold <em...@apache.org>]

I believe the working language[1] of ASF projects is English.

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_language

În Vin, 11 nov. 2016 la 11:13 Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
a scris:

> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>
> wrote:
> > ...there have been language specific mailing lists in the past, but they
> tend
> > to be short-lived...
>
> I think an important distinction is between a project's dev list,
> which is where project decisions must be made. That one must currently
> be in English so that ASF members and the Board can review discussions
> and decisions if needed, without relying on imperfect translations.
>
> Having users channels in other languages can be useful but that's
> probably only viable for big projects with lots of users, so that each
> list can be a meaningful community.
>
> IMO chat channels in other languages than English are not really a
> problem, as long as the project's decisions happen on its dev list.
> Like with any other non-dev-list channel, someone needs to bring
> discussions to the dev list as long as they become important - like
> affecting the software development as opposed to just being coffee
> machine type discussions.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
> ...there have been language specific mailing lists in the past, but they tend
> to be short-lived...

I think an important distinction is between a project's dev list,
which is where project decisions must be made. That one must currently
be in English so that ASF members and the Board can review discussions
and decisions if needed, without relying on imperfect translations.

Having users channels in other languages can be useful but that's
probably only viable for big projects with lots of users, so that each
list can be a meaningful community.

IMO chat channels in other languages than English are not really a
problem, as long as the project's decisions happen on its dev list.
Like with any other non-dev-list channel, someone needs to bring
discussions to the dev list as long as they become important - like
affecting the software development as opposed to just being coffee
machine type discussions.

-Bertrand

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Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>]

There is an explicit demand for English on generic mailing lists. However,
there have been language specific mailing lists in the past, but they tend
to be short-lived.

I think that for those who don't communicate in English, it will be
incredibly hard to be a useful contributor, heck even a user, as every bit
of documentation is also in English (with one or a very small number of
exceptions), the Apache Way guidelines are all in English, source code is
written in English... Mailing list seems to be the last of hurdles, IMHO.

Cheers
Niclas

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Tom Barber <to...@spicule.co.uk> wrote:

> I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about
> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
>
> of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
> happened" didn't mention the language.
>
> Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non
> Chinese speaking people follow development?
>
> On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Adding members@
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> > > English?
> > >
> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> English
> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when
> > it
> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
> > lower
> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> English
> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > >
> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> > exclude
> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
> > native
> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> > according
> > > to Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lu...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Gunnar,
> > >>
> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
> > >> real,
> > >> but just
> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions
> from
> > >> China,
> > >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> > >>
> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
> > LABEL
> > >> for such
> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
> "issue"
> > to
> > >> describe like
> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
> > >> others...
> > >> that's not right way.
> > >>
> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> > >> contributing to
> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
> > >> involved
> > >> in many
> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> > >>
> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
> > >> mailing
> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
> > >>
> > >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> > >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> > >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> > >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> > >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> > >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> > >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> > >>
> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
> > >> could check
> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
> list.
> > >>
> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way
> to
> > >> access
> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
> speakers,
> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
> Way.
> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> > >> community, and try
> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> > patience
> > >> for
> > >> those new comers.
> > >>
> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> > journey,
> > >> our experience
> > >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> > >> challenges...through
> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
> many
> > >> potential projects
> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> > >>
> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> > >> Trafodion
> > >> community"
> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
> Trafodion
> > >> PMC
> > >> know
> > >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
> > >> session recordings and
> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> > >> discussion
> > >> if necessary:-)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com
> > >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Hi,
> > >> >
> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> > >> >
> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
> > from
> > >> > China.
> > >> >
> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
> > >> active
> > >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
> > >> > Chinese.
> > >> >
> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard
> not
> > to
> > >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions
> > etc
> > >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> > >> >
> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
> > >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members
> in
> > >> China
> > >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues
> > like
> > >> > this.
> > >> >
> > >> > Thanks,
> > >> >
> > >> > Gunnar
> > >> >
> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
> >
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
> > >> years
> > >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
> > >> beyond
> > >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip
> > to
> > >> > China.
> > >> >
> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to.
> > We
> > >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
> > >> with
> > >> > this proposal.
> > >> >
> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project
> and
> > >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We
> will
> > >> need
> > >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China
> born
> > >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we
> need
> > >> to
> > >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
> > >> and as
> > >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met
> > some
> > >> of
> > >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
> > >> project
> > >> > can succeed.
> > >> >
> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> > >> >
> > >> > Ross
> > >> >
> > >> > ---
> > >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> > >> >
> > >> > ________________________________
> > >> > From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
> > >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> > >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> > >> >
> > >> > Hi John,
> > >> >
> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> > constructive
> > >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
> > >> using
> > >> > your suggestions.
> > >> >
> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
> > Gosling,
> > >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the
> Github
> > >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
> > history
> > >> > was
> > >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's
> git-fu
> > >> went
> > >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von
> also
> > >> gives
> > >> > further explanation of the project history in a response below.
> > Indeed,
> > >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
> > >> git),
> > >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to
> improve
> > >> and
> > >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> > >> >
> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
> > >> Bruce is
> > >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF
> exist
> > >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
> > mentors,
> > >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest
> > in
> > >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
> > >> continuing
> > >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
> > >> experience
> > >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
> > >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> > >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a community
> of
> > >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF
> is
> > an
> > >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
> > >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay
> > for
> > >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project
> > and
> > >> > people to the ASF.
> > >> >
> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> > >> suggestions
> > >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
> proposal.
> > >> Even
> > >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be
> great
> > >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
> > >> forward.
> > >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
> > >> mentioned
> > >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
> RocketMQ
> > >> code
> > >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John
> with
> > >> his
> > >> > thoughts:
> > >> >
> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
> > questions
> > >> > specifically:
> > >> >
> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > communities
> > >> to
> > >> > build cross platform clients?
> > >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> backend
> > >> > persistence stores?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Bruce
> > >> >
> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
> john.d.ament@gmail.com
> > >
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> > roman@shaposhnik.org
> > >> >
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
> > >> about:
> > >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> > >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> > >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> > >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
> > >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
> > committers
> > >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of
> time
> > >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
> prevails.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> > >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
> > >> > suspect
> > >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on
> > the
> > >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
> > >> products"
> > >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
> competes
> > >> with
> > >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair
> > of
> > >> one
> > >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies
> with
> > >> the
> > >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today
> in
> > >> > their
> > >> > > code base.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > >> communities
> > >> > to
> > >> > > build cross platform clients?
> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> > backend
> > >> > > persistence stores?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > etc..
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Thanks,
> > >> > > > Roman.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> > >> brianm@skife.org>
> > >> > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > +1 !
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <
> jim@jagunet.com>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >> Cool.
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >> +1
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
> > >> > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling
> > named
> > >> > > Apache
> > >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> > distributed,
> > >> > easy
> > >> > > > to
> > >> > > > >> use
> > >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing
> large
> > >> > amounts
> > >> > > > of
> > >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the
> following
> > >> URL:
> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A%
> > >> 2F%
> > >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> > >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
> > dcff%
> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> > >> > > > >> >
> > >> > > > >> > Bruce
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > ---------
> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > apache.org
> > >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> general-help@incubator.apache.
> > >> org
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > > >>
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> ---------
> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> apache.org
> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> > org
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > perl -e 'print
> > >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
> "YC;VT*"
> > >> );'
> > >> >
> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.
> > protection.outlook.com/?url=
> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> > >> icrosoft.com%
> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> > >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> > >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40
> > microsoft.com
> > >> %
> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> > >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
> > >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> > >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
> > >> 6e60c908d40597
> > >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> > >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> > >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> > >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>



-- 
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://zest.apache.org - New Energy for Java

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Tom Barber <to...@spicule.co.uk>]

I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about
diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.

of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
happened" didn't mention the language.

Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non
Chinese speaking people follow development?

On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rx...@apache.org> wrote:

> Adding members@
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> > English?
> >
> > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as English
> > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when
> it
> > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
> lower
> > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn English
> > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> >
> > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> exclude
> > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
> native
> > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> according
> > to Wikipedia.
> >
> > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lu...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Gunnar,
> >>
> >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
> >> real,
> >> but just
> >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
> >> China,
> >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> >>
> >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
> LABEL
> >> for such
> >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of "issue"
> to
> >> describe like
> >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
> >> others...
> >> that's not right way.
> >>
> >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> >> contributing to
> >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
> >> involved
> >> in many
> >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> >>
> >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
> >> mailing
> >> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
> >>
> >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> >>
> >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
> >> could check
> >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
> >>
> >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
> >> access
> >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English speakers,
> >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache Way.
> >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> >> community, and try
> >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> patience
> >> for
> >> those new comers.
> >>
> >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> journey,
> >> our experience
> >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> >> challenges...through
> >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping many
> >> potential projects
> >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> >>
> >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> >> Trafodion
> >> community"
> >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion
> >> PMC
> >> know
> >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
> >> session recordings and
> >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> >> discussion
> >> if necessary:-)
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> >> >
> >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
> from
> >> > China.
> >> >
> >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
> >> active
> >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
> >> > Chinese.
> >> >
> >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not
> to
> >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions
> etc
> >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> >> >
> >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
> >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
> >> China
> >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues
> like
> >> > this.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Gunnar
> >> >
> >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
> >> years
> >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
> >> beyond
> >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip
> to
> >> > China.
> >> >
> >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to.
> We
> >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
> >> with
> >> > this proposal.
> >> >
> >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
> >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will
> >> need
> >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
> >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need
> >> to
> >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
> >> and as
> >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met
> some
> >> of
> >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
> >> project
> >> > can succeed.
> >> >
> >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> >> >
> >> > Ross
> >> >
> >> > ---
> >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> >> >
> >> > ________________________________
> >> > From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> >> >
> >> > Hi John,
> >> >
> >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> constructive
> >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
> >> using
> >> > your suggestions.
> >> >
> >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
> Gosling,
> >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
> >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
> history
> >> > was
> >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
> >> went
> >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
> >> gives
> >> > further explanation of the project history in a response below.
> Indeed,
> >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
> >> git),
> >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve
> >> and
> >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> >> >
> >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
> >> Bruce is
> >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
> >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
> mentors,
> >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest
> in
> >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
> >> continuing
> >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
> >> experience
> >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
> >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
> >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is
> an
> >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
> >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay
> for
> >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project
> and
> >> > people to the ASF.
> >> >
> >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> >> suggestions
> >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal.
> >> Even
> >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
> >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
> >> forward.
> >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
> >> mentioned
> >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
> >> code
> >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with
> >> his
> >> > thoughts:
> >> >
> >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
> questions
> >> > specifically:
> >> >
> >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> communities
> >> to
> >> > build cross platform clients?
> >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> >> > persistence stores?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Bruce
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament@gmail.com
> >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> roman@shaposhnik.org
> >> >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
> >> about:
> >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >
> >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
> >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
> committers
> >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
> >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
> >> > suspect
> >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on
> the
> >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
> >> products"
> >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
> >> with
> >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair
> of
> >> one
> >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with
> >> the
> >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
> >> > their
> >> > > code base.
> >> > >
> >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> >> > >
> >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> >> communities
> >> > to
> >> > > build cross platform clients?
> >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> backend
> >> > > persistence stores?
> >> > >
> >> > > etc..
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > Roman.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> >> brianm@skife.org>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > +1 !
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >> Cool.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> +1
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling
> named
> >> > > Apache
> >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> distributed,
> >> > easy
> >> > > > to
> >> > > > >> use
> >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
> >> > amounts
> >> > > > of
> >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
> >> URL:
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
> >> 2F%
> >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
> dcff%
> >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Bruce
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > ---------
> >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> apache.org
> >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> >> org
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ---------
> >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> org
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > perl -e 'print
> >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
> >> );'
> >> >
> >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.
> protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> >> icrosoft.com%
> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40
> microsoft.com
> >> %
> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
> >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
> >> 6e60c908d40597
> >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution.

[Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.com>]

Just my 2 cents...

I do not know for English - Chinese translations. But as a French native
speaker who also speak a little bit of Japanese, my experience with
Google translate is that it can be helpful between English and French
(probably because those languages are relatively close), but is quite
dangerous for translations between (French or English) and Japanese.
Especially if the sentence contains negations like "we should not", "I
would not recommend", etc., I had a lot of cases where the translated
sentence said the opposite of what I intended (with the negation at the
wrong place).

    Martin


Le 11/11/16 � 07:53, Gunnar Tapper a �crit :
> In Trafodion, I and others have simply used Google Translate (doesn't
> have to be that tool, just what was handy) for Chinese-to-English. It
> wasn't a big deal on the English side. But, the dialog stopped there
> so I don't know whether it was because the translation back doesn't
> work or something else.
>
> Maybe it would be a good idea to provide some guidance in different
> languages to suggest to use translation tools and reassurance that the
> community is very open to communication via translate tools?
>
> Gunnar


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Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>]

In Trafodion, I and others have simply used Google Translate (doesn't have
to be that tool, just what was handy) for Chinese-to-English. It wasn't a
big deal on the English side. But, the dialog stopped there so I don't know
whether it was because the translation back doesn't work or something else.

Maybe it would be a good idea to provide some guidance in different
languages to suggest to use translation tools and reassurance that the
community is very open to communication via translate tools?

Gunnar



On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:45 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:

> Adding members@
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> > English?
> >
> > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as English
> > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when
> it
> > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much
> lower
> > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn English
> > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> >
> > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> exclude
> > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
> native
> > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> according
> > to Wikipedia.
> >
> > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lu...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Gunnar,
> >>
> >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
> >> real,
> >> but just
> >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
> >> China,
> >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> >>
> >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and
> LABEL
> >> for such
> >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of "issue"
> to
> >> describe like
> >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
> >> others...
> >> that's not right way.
> >>
> >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> >> contributing to
> >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
> >> involved
> >> in many
> >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> >>
> >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
> >> mailing
> >> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
> >>
> >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> >>
> >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
> >> could check
> >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
> >>
> >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
> >> access
> >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English speakers,
> >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache Way.
> >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> >> community, and try
> >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the
> patience
> >> for
> >> those new comers.
> >>
> >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> journey,
> >> our experience
> >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> >> challenges...through
> >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping many
> >> potential projects
> >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> >>
> >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> >> Trafodion
> >> community"
> >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion
> >> PMC
> >> know
> >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
> >> session recordings and
> >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> >> discussion
> >> if necessary:-)
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> >> >
> >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution
> from
> >> > China.
> >> >
> >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
> >> active
> >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
> >> > Chinese.
> >> >
> >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not
> to
> >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions
> etc
> >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> >> >
> >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
> >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
> >> China
> >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues
> like
> >> > this.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Gunnar
> >> >
> >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
> >> years
> >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
> >> beyond
> >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip
> to
> >> > China.
> >> >
> >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to.
> We
> >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
> >> with
> >> > this proposal.
> >> >
> >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
> >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will
> >> need
> >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
> >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need
> >> to
> >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
> >> and as
> >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met
> some
> >> of
> >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
> >> project
> >> > can succeed.
> >> >
> >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> >> >
> >> > Ross
> >> >
> >> > ---
> >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> >> >
> >> > ________________________________
> >> > From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
> >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> >> >
> >> > Hi John,
> >> >
> >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> constructive
> >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
> >> using
> >> > your suggestions.
> >> >
> >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
> Gosling,
> >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
> >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the
> history
> >> > was
> >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
> >> went
> >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
> >> gives
> >> > further explanation of the project history in a response below.
> Indeed,
> >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
> >> git),
> >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve
> >> and
> >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> >> >
> >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
> >> Bruce is
> >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
> >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
> mentors,
> >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest
> in
> >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
> >> continuing
> >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
> >> experience
> >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
> >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
> >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is
> an
> >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
> >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay
> for
> >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project
> and
> >> > people to the ASF.
> >> >
> >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> >> suggestions
> >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal.
> >> Even
> >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
> >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
> >> forward.
> >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
> >> mentioned
> >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
> >> code
> >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with
> >> his
> >> > thoughts:
> >> >
> >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
> questions
> >> > specifically:
> >> >
> >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> communities
> >> to
> >> > build cross platform clients?
> >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> >> > persistence stores?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Bruce
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament@gmail.com
> >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> roman@shaposhnik.org
> >> >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
> >> about:
> >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > >
> >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
> >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
> committers
> >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
> >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
> >> > suspect
> >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on
> the
> >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
> >> products"
> >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
> >> with
> >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair
> of
> >> one
> >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with
> >> the
> >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
> >> > their
> >> > > code base.
> >> > >
> >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> >> > >
> >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> >> communities
> >> > to
> >> > > build cross platform clients?
> >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> backend
> >> > > persistence stores?
> >> > >
> >> > > etc..
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > Roman.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> >> brianm@skife.org>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > +1 !
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >> Cool.
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> +1
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling
> named
> >> > > Apache
> >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> distributed,
> >> > easy
> >> > > > to
> >> > > > >> use
> >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
> >> > amounts
> >> > > > of
> >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
> >> URL:
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
> >> 2F%
> >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
> dcff%
> >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> >> > > > >> >
> >> > > > >> > Bruce
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > ---------
> >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> apache.org
> >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> >> org
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > > >>
> >> > > >
> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ---------
> >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> org
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > perl -e 'print
> >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
> >> );'
> >> >
> >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.
> protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> >> icrosoft.com%
> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40
> microsoft.com
> >> %
> >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
> >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
> >> 6e60c908d40597
> >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>



-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org>]

Adding members@

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org> wrote:

> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
> English?
>
> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as English
> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when it
> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much lower
> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn English
> as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
>
> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also exclude
> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of native
> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 according
> to Wikipedia.
>
> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lu...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Gunnar,
>>
>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not
>> real,
>> but just
>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
>> China,
>> or any other territories from all of the world.
>>
>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and LABEL
>> for such
>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of "issue" to
>> describe like
>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
>> others...
>> that's not right way.
>>
>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
>> contributing to
>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
>> involved
>> in many
>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
>>
>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days
>> mailing
>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
>>
>> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
>> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
>> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
>> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
>> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
>> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
>> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
>>
>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
>> could check
>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
>>
>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
>> access
>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English speakers,
>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache Way.
>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
>> community, and try
>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the patience
>> for
>> those new comers.
>>
>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our journey,
>> our experience
>>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
>> challenges...through
>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping many
>> potential projects
>> who are interesting to join Apache family.
>>
>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
>> Trafodion
>> community"
>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion
>> PMC
>> know
>> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
>> session recordings and
>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
>> discussion
>> if necessary:-)
>>
>>
>> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>> >
>> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution from
>> > China.
>> >
>> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
>> active
>> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
>> > Chinese.
>> >
>> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not to
>> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions etc
>> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>> >
>> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
>> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
>> China
>> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues like
>> > this.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Gunnar
>> >
>> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of
>> years
>> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
>> beyond
>> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip to
>> > China.
>> >
>> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to. We
>> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved
>> with
>> > this proposal.
>> >
>> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
>> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will
>> need
>> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
>> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need
>> to
>> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation
>> and as
>> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met some
>> of
>> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the
>> project
>> > can succeed.
>> >
>> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>> >
>> > Ross
>> >
>> > ---
>> > Twitter: @rgardler
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
>> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
>> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
>> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>> >
>> > Hi John,
>> >
>> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for constructive
>> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
>> using
>> > your suggestions.
>> >
>> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von Gosling,
>> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
>> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the history
>> > was
>> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
>> went
>> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
>> gives
>> > further explanation of the project history in a response below. Indeed,
>> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
>> git),
>> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve
>> and
>> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>> >
>> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
>> Bruce is
>> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
>> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good mentors,
>> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest in
>> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
>> continuing
>> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
>> experience
>> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
>> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
>> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
>> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is an
>> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
>> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay for
>> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project and
>> > people to the ASF.
>> >
>> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
>> suggestions
>> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal.
>> Even
>> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
>> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
>> forward.
>> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
>> mentioned
>> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
>> code
>> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with
>> his
>> > thoughts:
>> >
>> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two questions
>> > specifically:
>> >
>> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities
>> to
>> > build cross platform clients?
>> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
>> > persistence stores?
>> >
>> >
>> > Bruce
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <roman@shaposhnik.org
>> >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned
>> about:
>> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
>> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
>> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
>> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
>> > > >
>> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
>> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial committers
>> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
>> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
>> > > >
>> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
>> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
>> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
>> > suspect
>> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on the
>> > > product and it was kept internal.
>> > >
>> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
>> products"
>> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
>> with
>> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair of
>> one
>> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with
>> the
>> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
>> > their
>> > > code base.
>> > >
>> > > Some other ways to address this section:
>> > >
>> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
>> communities
>> > to
>> > > build cross platform clients?
>> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
>> > > persistence stores?
>> > >
>> > > etc..
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks,
>> > > > Roman.
>> > > >
>> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
>> brianm@skife.org>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > > +1 !
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> Cool.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> +1
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
>> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named
>> > > Apache
>> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed,
>> > easy
>> > > > to
>> > > > >> use
>> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
>> > amounts
>> > > > of
>> > > > >> > streaming data.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
>> URL:
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
>> 2F%
>> > 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
>> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Thanks,
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Bruce
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > ---------
>> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
>> org
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > >
>> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > perl -e 'print
>> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
>> );'
>> >
>> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
>> icrosoft.com%
>> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
>> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
>> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com
>> %
>> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
>> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
>> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
>> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
>> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
>> 6e60c908d40597
>> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
>> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
>> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
>> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
>> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
>> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
>> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>> >
>>
>
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Reynold Xin <rx...@apache.org>]

To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it
differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in
English?

I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as English
is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when it
comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much lower
than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn English
as for English speakers to learn Chinese.

One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also exclude
those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of native
speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 according
to Wikipedia.

Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries, except
the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.




On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lu...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi Gunnar,
>
> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not real,
> but just
> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
> China,
> or any other territories from all of the world.
>
> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and LABEL
> for such
> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of "issue" to
> describe like
> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or
> others...
> that's not right way.
>
> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
> contributing to
> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much, involved
> in many
> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
>
> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days mailing
> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:
>
> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
>
> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
> could check
> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.
>
> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
> access
> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English speakers,
> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache Way.
> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> community, and try
> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the patience
> for
> those new comers.
>
> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our journey,
> our experience
>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> challenges...through
> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping many
> potential projects
> who are interesting to join Apache family.
>
> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help Trafodion
> community"
> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion PMC
> know
> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
> session recordings and
> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face discussion
> if necessary:-)
>
>
> [1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> >
> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution from
> > China.
> >
> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that
> active
> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
> > Chinese.
> >
> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not to
> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions etc
> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> >
> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in
> China
> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues like
> > this.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of years
> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source
> beyond
> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip to
> > China.
> >
> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to. We
> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved with
> > this proposal.
> >
> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will
> need
> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need to
> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation and
> as
> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met some
> of
> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the project
> > can succeed.
> >
> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> >
> > Ross
> >
> > ---
> > Twitter: @rgardler
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for constructive
> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project
> using
> > your suggestions.
> >
> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von Gosling,
> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the history
> > was
> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu
> went
> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also
> gives
> > further explanation of the project history in a response below. Indeed,
> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with
> git),
> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve and
> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> >
> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since Bruce
> is
> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good mentors,
> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest in
> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in
> continuing
> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
> experience
> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is an
> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay for
> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project and
> > people to the ASF.
> >
> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good suggestions
> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal.
> Even
> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving
> forward.
> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
> mentioned
> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ
> code
> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with his
> > thoughts:
> >
> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two questions
> > specifically:
> >
> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities
> to
> > build cross platform clients?
> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> > persistence stores?
> >
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned about:
> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> > > >
> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial committers
> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
> > > >
> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> > > >
> > >
> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
> > suspect
> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on the
> > > product and it was kept internal.
> > >
> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
> products"
> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes
> with
> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair of
> one
> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with the
> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
> > their
> > > code base.
> > >
> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> > >
> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities
> > to
> > > build cross platform clients?
> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> > > persistence stores?
> > >
> > > etc..
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Roman.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <brianm@skife.org
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > +1 !
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Cool.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> +1
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named
> > > Apache
> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed,
> > easy
> > > > to
> > > > >> use
> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
> > amounts
> > > > of
> > > > >> > streaming data.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following
> URL:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%
> > 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Thanks,
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Bruce
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---------
> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> org
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > perl -e 'print
> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*" );'
> >
> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com
> %
> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c
> 6e60c908d40597
> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> >
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Luke Han <lu...@apache.org>]

Hi Gunnar,

I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not real,
but just
refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from
China,
or any other territories from all of the world.

This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and LABEL
for such
contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of "issue" to
describe like
Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or others...
that's not right way.

Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are
contributing to
most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much, involved
in many
discussion, development, decision and others deeply.

Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days mailing
list activity from lists.apache.org [1]:

Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25

There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you
could check
each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list.

It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to
access
gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English speakers,
they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache Way.
But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
community, and try
their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the patience
for
those new comers.

As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our journey,
our experience
 about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
challenges...through
conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping many
potential projects
who are interesting to join Apache family.

I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help Trafodion
community"
which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion PMC
know
this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles,
session recordings and
others about open source, even could try to do some face to face discussion
if necessary:-)


[1] https://lists.apache.org  <https://lists.apache.org>

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <ta...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
>
> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution from
> China.
>
> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that active
> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in
> Chinese.
>
> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not to
> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions etc
> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
>
> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward,
> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in China
> can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues like
> this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gunnar
>
> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <Ro...@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of years
> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source beyond
> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip to
> China.
>
> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to. We
> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved with
> this proposal.
>
> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and
> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will need
> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born
> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need to
> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation and as
> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met some of
> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the project
> can succeed.
>
> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
>
> Ross
>
> ---
> Twitter: @rgardler
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
>
> Hi John,
>
> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for constructive
> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project using
> your suggestions.
>
> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von Gosling,
> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github
> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the history
> was
> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu went
> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also gives
> further explanation of the project history in a response below. Indeed,
> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with git),
> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve and
> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
>
> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is
> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist
> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good mentors,
> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest in
> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in continuing
> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years experience
> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of
> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is an
> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new
> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay for
> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project and
> people to the ASF.
>
> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good suggestions
> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal. Even
> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great
> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving forward.
> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you mentioned
> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ code
> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with his
> thoughts:
>
> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two questions
> specifically:
>
> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities to
> build cross platform clients?
> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> persistence stores?
>
>
> Bruce
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned about:
> > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
> > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial committers
> > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time
> > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails.
> > >
> > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> > >
> >
> > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
> suspect
> > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on the
> > product and it was kept internal.
> >
> > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache products"
> > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes with
> > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair of one
> > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with the
> > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects today in
> their
> > code base.
> >
> > Some other ways to address this section:
> >
> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ communities
> to
> > build cross platform clients?
> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> > persistence stores?
> >
> > etc..
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Roman.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <br...@skife.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > > +1 !
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Cool.
> > > >>
> > > >> +1
> > > >>
> > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named
> > Apache
> > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed,
> easy
> > > to
> > > >> use
> > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large
> amounts
> > > of
> > > >> > streaming data.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following URL:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%
> 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Thanks,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Bruce
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> perl -e 'print
> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*" );'
>
> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks.
> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597
> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
>

Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)

[Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org>]

On Thu, 2016-11-10 at 12:00 -0700, Gunnar Tapper wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> 
> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution from
> China.
> 
> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that active
> on email.

I've seen similar behaviour in an English-speaking community.
People like chat media and lose the role of email and lists,
even when the language is exactly the same either way.

IMHO this gives rise to two questions that matter:
- How inclusive is/isn't the alternative medium of communication?
- Are decisions that should have a public/archived trail being
  taken off-list in ephemeral media?

>  Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in Chinese.

Language is an important question, but isn't it orthogonal
to that of what communication medium a project uses?

-- 
Nick Kew


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