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Posted to user@couchdb.apache.org by Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> on 2014/01/23 00:43:58 UTC
Top posting in threads on the list's
Hi everyone,
just a short reminder that it is super helpful, to avoid top posting when
replying in threads on the mailing-lists. It is very much easier to follow
a conversation. I will not make a drama out of that but I would be happy,
if you just keep it in mind. Always answer below the last answer :)
Thanks and Cheers
Andy
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
http://www.couchdb-buch.de
http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org>.
Hi Andy,
Thats a great idea, look forward to the guidelines because I could use the help.
Cheers
Garren
On 24 Jan 2014, at 10:26 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> Garren,
>
> On 24 January 2014 08:45, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
> It is good to have these discussions, my only concern is that we scare off people that are worried about sending a message to the mailing lists and getting it wrong. There was an email earlier today where that happened to some degree. I'm all for some helpful guidelines but we don't want to end up coming across as those people that complain about what way a message is sent.
>
> scaring people is a no-no-go. That was definitely not the intention of the discussion. So, I would like to write a summary to all lists with some easy to understand and helpful guidelines. I think they should be really liberal-minded. Unfortunately I will not make that happen today but can make it tomorrow. If anyone else wants to take this part just go ahead ...
>
> Thanks a lot for pointing this out!
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
> On 23 Jan 2014, at 9:27 PM, Jens Alfke <je...@couchbase.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Jan 23, 2014, at 1:03 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good.
> >
> > Etiquette changes over time, and this RFC is nearly 20 years old. Complaining about top-posting is very "Get off my lawn, kids!"
> >
> > I try to inline-post, except if I'm composing on a phone. But I don't much mind what style people use, as long as they don't quote the entire message and then add a line somewhere in the middle of it.
> >
> >> Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
> >> postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
> >> response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
> >> helps everyone.
> >
> > Technology changes too. I remember the days of UUCP-based Netnews, but it hasn't been that way in ages. Out-of-order receipt is no longer an issue, and nearly all mail clients show threads, so it's not hard to see the context of a reply.
> >
> >> But do not include the entire original!
> >
> > I can't help noticing you included Andy's entire original, Benoit :)
> >
> > —Jens
>
>
>
>
> --
> Andy Wenk
> Hamburg - Germany
> RockIt!
>
> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
>
> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>
> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org>.
Hi Andy,
Thats a great idea, look forward to the guidelines because I could use the help.
Cheers
Garren
On 24 Jan 2014, at 10:26 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> Garren,
>
> On 24 January 2014 08:45, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
> It is good to have these discussions, my only concern is that we scare off people that are worried about sending a message to the mailing lists and getting it wrong. There was an email earlier today where that happened to some degree. I'm all for some helpful guidelines but we don't want to end up coming across as those people that complain about what way a message is sent.
>
> scaring people is a no-no-go. That was definitely not the intention of the discussion. So, I would like to write a summary to all lists with some easy to understand and helpful guidelines. I think they should be really liberal-minded. Unfortunately I will not make that happen today but can make it tomorrow. If anyone else wants to take this part just go ahead ...
>
> Thanks a lot for pointing this out!
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
> On 23 Jan 2014, at 9:27 PM, Jens Alfke <je...@couchbase.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Jan 23, 2014, at 1:03 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good.
> >
> > Etiquette changes over time, and this RFC is nearly 20 years old. Complaining about top-posting is very "Get off my lawn, kids!"
> >
> > I try to inline-post, except if I'm composing on a phone. But I don't much mind what style people use, as long as they don't quote the entire message and then add a line somewhere in the middle of it.
> >
> >> Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
> >> postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
> >> response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
> >> helps everyone.
> >
> > Technology changes too. I remember the days of UUCP-based Netnews, but it hasn't been that way in ages. Out-of-order receipt is no longer an issue, and nearly all mail clients show threads, so it's not hard to see the context of a reply.
> >
> >> But do not include the entire original!
> >
> > I can't help noticing you included Andy's entire original, Benoit :)
> >
> > —Jens
>
>
>
>
> --
> Andy Wenk
> Hamburg - Germany
> RockIt!
>
> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
>
> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>
> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>.
Mark,
On 24 January 2014 21:06, Mark Hahn <ma...@reevuit.com> wrote:
> Go to the python forum and top-post. You will not be able to sleep at
> night after the beating you will receive.
>
the same with the PostgreSQL mailing-list :)
Please see my other email with a "solution" :)
Cheers
Andy
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
http://www.couchdb-buch.de
http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Mark Hahn <ma...@reevuit.com>.
Go to the python forum and top-post. You will not be able to sleep at
night after the beating you will receive.
I personally top-post everywhere and have since the 80's. I have no
problem reading it now because gmail hides the old stuff and I can usually
remember the conversation. When I forget one click takes me to the old.
I don't see how forum police can control any posting. Well python is the
exception I guess.
On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 7:33 AM, Tim Black <ti...@alwaysreformed.com> wrote:
> On 01/24/2014 02:53 AM, Benoit Chesneau wrote:
> > I don't think we should enforce any guideline here.
> Let's post arbitrary fields in JSON, and let the readers determine which
> fields they want to read! ; )
>
> Tim
>
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Tim Black <ti...@alwaysreformed.com>.
On 01/24/2014 02:53 AM, Benoit Chesneau wrote:
> I don't think we should enforce any guideline here.
Let's post arbitrary fields in JSON, and let the readers determine which
fields they want to read! ; )
Tim
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 9:26 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> Garren,
>
> On 24 January 2014 08:45, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > It is good to have these discussions, my only concern is that we scare
> off
> > people that are worried about sending a message to the mailing lists and
> > getting it wrong. There was an email earlier today where that happened to
> > some degree. I'm all for some helpful guidelines but we don't want to end
> > up coming across as those people that complain about what way a message
> is
> > sent.
>
>
> scaring people is a no-no-go. That was definitely not the intention of the
> discussion. So, I would like to write a summary to all lists with some easy
> to understand and helpful guidelines. I think they should be really
> liberal-minded. Unfortunately I will not make that happen today but can
> make it tomorrow. If anyone else wants to take this part just go ahead ...
>
> Thanks a lot for pointing this out!
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
>
Should we prefer A4 over US letter format? French european letter header or
the others? We should remember that people are used to think and write
differently depending on their culture, location or just mind. There is not
one way to answer to a mail. And that's from the beginning. Even the
netiquette isn't forcing that. I find cross-posting good when you want to
figure what this mail is about.
I don't think we should enforce any guideline here. I prefer to have a
feedback or a post than waiting for a post that won't come because someone
don't want to care about a formatted way to write it (even if these are
"just" guidelines) . Let just people follow their way here. You're free to
not read the mail :)
- benoit
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 9:26 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> Garren,
>
> On 24 January 2014 08:45, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > It is good to have these discussions, my only concern is that we scare
> off
> > people that are worried about sending a message to the mailing lists and
> > getting it wrong. There was an email earlier today where that happened to
> > some degree. I'm all for some helpful guidelines but we don't want to end
> > up coming across as those people that complain about what way a message
> is
> > sent.
>
>
> scaring people is a no-no-go. That was definitely not the intention of the
> discussion. So, I would like to write a summary to all lists with some easy
> to understand and helpful guidelines. I think they should be really
> liberal-minded. Unfortunately I will not make that happen today but can
> make it tomorrow. If anyone else wants to take this part just go ahead ...
>
> Thanks a lot for pointing this out!
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
>
Should we prefer A4 over US letter format? French european letter header or
the others? We should remember that people are used to think and write
differently depending on their culture, location or just mind. There is not
one way to answer to a mail. And that's from the beginning. Even the
netiquette isn't forcing that. I find cross-posting good when you want to
figure what this mail is about.
I don't think we should enforce any guideline here. I prefer to have a
feedback or a post than waiting for a post that won't come because someone
don't want to care about a formatted way to write it (even if these are
"just" guidelines) . Let just people follow their way here. You're free to
not read the mail :)
- benoit
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org>.
Hi Andy,
Thats a great idea, look forward to the guidelines because I could use the help.
Cheers
Garren
On 24 Jan 2014, at 10:26 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> Garren,
>
> On 24 January 2014 08:45, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
> It is good to have these discussions, my only concern is that we scare off people that are worried about sending a message to the mailing lists and getting it wrong. There was an email earlier today where that happened to some degree. I'm all for some helpful guidelines but we don't want to end up coming across as those people that complain about what way a message is sent.
>
> scaring people is a no-no-go. That was definitely not the intention of the discussion. So, I would like to write a summary to all lists with some easy to understand and helpful guidelines. I think they should be really liberal-minded. Unfortunately I will not make that happen today but can make it tomorrow. If anyone else wants to take this part just go ahead ...
>
> Thanks a lot for pointing this out!
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
> On 23 Jan 2014, at 9:27 PM, Jens Alfke <je...@couchbase.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Jan 23, 2014, at 1:03 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good.
> >
> > Etiquette changes over time, and this RFC is nearly 20 years old. Complaining about top-posting is very "Get off my lawn, kids!"
> >
> > I try to inline-post, except if I'm composing on a phone. But I don't much mind what style people use, as long as they don't quote the entire message and then add a line somewhere in the middle of it.
> >
> >> Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
> >> postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
> >> response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
> >> helps everyone.
> >
> > Technology changes too. I remember the days of UUCP-based Netnews, but it hasn't been that way in ages. Out-of-order receipt is no longer an issue, and nearly all mail clients show threads, so it's not hard to see the context of a reply.
> >
> >> But do not include the entire original!
> >
> > I can't help noticing you included Andy's entire original, Benoit :)
> >
> > —Jens
>
>
>
>
> --
> Andy Wenk
> Hamburg - Germany
> RockIt!
>
> http://www.couchdb-buch.de
> http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
>
> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
>
> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 9:26 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> Garren,
>
> On 24 January 2014 08:45, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > It is good to have these discussions, my only concern is that we scare
> off
> > people that are worried about sending a message to the mailing lists and
> > getting it wrong. There was an email earlier today where that happened to
> > some degree. I'm all for some helpful guidelines but we don't want to end
> > up coming across as those people that complain about what way a message
> is
> > sent.
>
>
> scaring people is a no-no-go. That was definitely not the intention of the
> discussion. So, I would like to write a summary to all lists with some easy
> to understand and helpful guidelines. I think they should be really
> liberal-minded. Unfortunately I will not make that happen today but can
> make it tomorrow. If anyone else wants to take this part just go ahead ...
>
> Thanks a lot for pointing this out!
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
>
Should we prefer A4 over US letter format? French european letter header or
the others? We should remember that people are used to think and write
differently depending on their culture, location or just mind. There is not
one way to answer to a mail. And that's from the beginning. Even the
netiquette isn't forcing that. I find cross-posting good when you want to
figure what this mail is about.
I don't think we should enforce any guideline here. I prefer to have a
feedback or a post than waiting for a post that won't come because someone
don't want to care about a formatted way to write it (even if these are
"just" guidelines) . Let just people follow their way here. You're free to
not read the mail :)
- benoit
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>.
Garren,
On 24 January 2014 08:45, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
> It is good to have these discussions, my only concern is that we scare off
> people that are worried about sending a message to the mailing lists and
> getting it wrong. There was an email earlier today where that happened to
> some degree. I'm all for some helpful guidelines but we don't want to end
> up coming across as those people that complain about what way a message is
> sent.
scaring people is a no-no-go. That was definitely not the intention of the
discussion. So, I would like to write a summary to all lists with some easy
to understand and helpful guidelines. I think they should be really
liberal-minded. Unfortunately I will not make that happen today but can
make it tomorrow. If anyone else wants to take this part just go ahead ...
Thanks a lot for pointing this out!
Cheers
Andy
> On 23 Jan 2014, at 9:27 PM, Jens Alfke <je...@couchbase.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Jan 23, 2014, at 1:03 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good.
> >
> > Etiquette changes over time, and this RFC is nearly 20 years old.
> Complaining about top-posting is very "Get off my lawn, kids!"
> >
> > I try to inline-post, except if I'm composing on a phone. But I don't
> much mind what style people use, as long as they don't quote the entire
> message and then add a line somewhere in the middle of it.
> >
> >> Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
> >> postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
> >> response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
> >> helps everyone.
> >
> > Technology changes too. I remember the days of UUCP-based Netnews, but
> it hasn't been that way in ages. Out-of-order receipt is no longer an
> issue, and nearly all mail clients show threads, so it's not hard to see
> the context of a reply.
> >
> >> But do not include the entire original!
> >
> > I can't help noticing you included Andy's entire original, Benoit :)
> >
> > —Jens
>
>
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
http://www.couchdb-buch.de
http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>.
Garren,
On 24 January 2014 08:45, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
> It is good to have these discussions, my only concern is that we scare off
> people that are worried about sending a message to the mailing lists and
> getting it wrong. There was an email earlier today where that happened to
> some degree. I'm all for some helpful guidelines but we don't want to end
> up coming across as those people that complain about what way a message is
> sent.
scaring people is a no-no-go. That was definitely not the intention of the
discussion. So, I would like to write a summary to all lists with some easy
to understand and helpful guidelines. I think they should be really
liberal-minded. Unfortunately I will not make that happen today but can
make it tomorrow. If anyone else wants to take this part just go ahead ...
Thanks a lot for pointing this out!
Cheers
Andy
> On 23 Jan 2014, at 9:27 PM, Jens Alfke <je...@couchbase.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Jan 23, 2014, at 1:03 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good.
> >
> > Etiquette changes over time, and this RFC is nearly 20 years old.
> Complaining about top-posting is very "Get off my lawn, kids!"
> >
> > I try to inline-post, except if I'm composing on a phone. But I don't
> much mind what style people use, as long as they don't quote the entire
> message and then add a line somewhere in the middle of it.
> >
> >> Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
> >> postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
> >> response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
> >> helps everyone.
> >
> > Technology changes too. I remember the days of UUCP-based Netnews, but
> it hasn't been that way in ages. Out-of-order receipt is no longer an
> issue, and nearly all mail clients show threads, so it's not hard to see
> the context of a reply.
> >
> >> But do not include the entire original!
> >
> > I can't help noticing you included Andy's entire original, Benoit :)
> >
> > —Jens
>
>
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
http://www.couchdb-buch.de
http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>.
Garren,
On 24 January 2014 08:45, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
> It is good to have these discussions, my only concern is that we scare off
> people that are worried about sending a message to the mailing lists and
> getting it wrong. There was an email earlier today where that happened to
> some degree. I'm all for some helpful guidelines but we don't want to end
> up coming across as those people that complain about what way a message is
> sent.
scaring people is a no-no-go. That was definitely not the intention of the
discussion. So, I would like to write a summary to all lists with some easy
to understand and helpful guidelines. I think they should be really
liberal-minded. Unfortunately I will not make that happen today but can
make it tomorrow. If anyone else wants to take this part just go ahead ...
Thanks a lot for pointing this out!
Cheers
Andy
> On 23 Jan 2014, at 9:27 PM, Jens Alfke <je...@couchbase.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Jan 23, 2014, at 1:03 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good.
> >
> > Etiquette changes over time, and this RFC is nearly 20 years old.
> Complaining about top-posting is very "Get off my lawn, kids!"
> >
> > I try to inline-post, except if I'm composing on a phone. But I don't
> much mind what style people use, as long as they don't quote the entire
> message and then add a line somewhere in the middle of it.
> >
> >> Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
> >> postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
> >> response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
> >> helps everyone.
> >
> > Technology changes too. I remember the days of UUCP-based Netnews, but
> it hasn't been that way in ages. Out-of-order receipt is no longer an
> issue, and nearly all mail clients show threads, so it's not hard to see
> the context of a reply.
> >
> >> But do not include the entire original!
> >
> > I can't help noticing you included Andy's entire original, Benoit :)
> >
> > —Jens
>
>
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
http://www.couchdb-buch.de
http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org>.
It is good to have these discussions, my only concern is that we scare off people that are worried about sending a message to the mailing lists and getting it wrong. There was an email earlier today where that happened to some degree. I'm all for some helpful guidelines but we don't want to end up coming across as those people that complain about what way a message is sent.
On 23 Jan 2014, at 9:27 PM, Jens Alfke <je...@couchbase.com> wrote:
>
> On Jan 23, 2014, at 1:03 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good.
>
> Etiquette changes over time, and this RFC is nearly 20 years old. Complaining about top-posting is very "Get off my lawn, kids!"
>
> I try to inline-post, except if I'm composing on a phone. But I don't much mind what style people use, as long as they don't quote the entire message and then add a line somewhere in the middle of it.
>
>> Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
>> postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
>> response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
>> helps everyone.
>
> Technology changes too. I remember the days of UUCP-based Netnews, but it hasn't been that way in ages. Out-of-order receipt is no longer an issue, and nearly all mail clients show threads, so it's not hard to see the context of a reply.
>
>> But do not include the entire original!
>
> I can't help noticing you included Andy's entire original, Benoit :)
>
> —Jens
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org>.
It is good to have these discussions, my only concern is that we scare off people that are worried about sending a message to the mailing lists and getting it wrong. There was an email earlier today where that happened to some degree. I'm all for some helpful guidelines but we don't want to end up coming across as those people that complain about what way a message is sent.
On 23 Jan 2014, at 9:27 PM, Jens Alfke <je...@couchbase.com> wrote:
>
> On Jan 23, 2014, at 1:03 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good.
>
> Etiquette changes over time, and this RFC is nearly 20 years old. Complaining about top-posting is very "Get off my lawn, kids!"
>
> I try to inline-post, except if I'm composing on a phone. But I don't much mind what style people use, as long as they don't quote the entire message and then add a line somewhere in the middle of it.
>
>> Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
>> postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
>> response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
>> helps everyone.
>
> Technology changes too. I remember the days of UUCP-based Netnews, but it hasn't been that way in ages. Out-of-order receipt is no longer an issue, and nearly all mail clients show threads, so it's not hard to see the context of a reply.
>
>> But do not include the entire original!
>
> I can't help noticing you included Andy's entire original, Benoit :)
>
> —Jens
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org>.
It is good to have these discussions, my only concern is that we scare off people that are worried about sending a message to the mailing lists and getting it wrong. There was an email earlier today where that happened to some degree. I'm all for some helpful guidelines but we don't want to end up coming across as those people that complain about what way a message is sent.
On 23 Jan 2014, at 9:27 PM, Jens Alfke <je...@couchbase.com> wrote:
>
> On Jan 23, 2014, at 1:03 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good.
>
> Etiquette changes over time, and this RFC is nearly 20 years old. Complaining about top-posting is very "Get off my lawn, kids!"
>
> I try to inline-post, except if I'm composing on a phone. But I don't much mind what style people use, as long as they don't quote the entire message and then add a line somewhere in the middle of it.
>
>> Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
>> postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
>> response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
>> helps everyone.
>
> Technology changes too. I remember the days of UUCP-based Netnews, but it hasn't been that way in ages. Out-of-order receipt is no longer an issue, and nearly all mail clients show threads, so it's not hard to see the context of a reply.
>
>> But do not include the entire original!
>
> I can't help noticing you included Andy's entire original, Benoit :)
>
> —Jens
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Jens Alfke <je...@couchbase.com>.
On Jan 23, 2014, at 1:03 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good.
Etiquette changes over time, and this RFC is nearly 20 years old. Complaining about top-posting is very "Get off my lawn, kids!"
I try to inline-post, except if I'm composing on a phone. But I don't much mind what style people use, as long as they don't quote the entire message and then add a line somewhere in the middle of it.
> Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
> postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
> response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
> helps everyone.
Technology changes too. I remember the days of UUCP-based Netnews, but it hasn't been that way in ages. Out-of-order receipt is no longer an issue, and nearly all mail clients show threads, so it's not hard to see the context of a reply.
> But do not include the entire original!
I can't help noticing you included Andy's entire original, Benoit :)
—Jens
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Jens Alfke <je...@couchbase.com>.
On Jan 23, 2014, at 1:03 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good.
Etiquette changes over time, and this RFC is nearly 20 years old. Complaining about top-posting is very "Get off my lawn, kids!"
I try to inline-post, except if I'm composing on a phone. But I don't much mind what style people use, as long as they don't quote the entire message and then add a line somewhere in the middle of it.
> Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
> postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
> response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
> helps everyone.
Technology changes too. I remember the days of UUCP-based Netnews, but it hasn't been that way in ages. Out-of-order receipt is no longer an issue, and nearly all mail clients show threads, so it's not hard to see the context of a reply.
> But do not include the entire original!
I can't help noticing you included Andy's entire original, Benoit :)
—Jens
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Jens Alfke <je...@couchbase.com>.
On Jan 23, 2014, at 1:03 AM, Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good.
Etiquette changes over time, and this RFC is nearly 20 years old. Complaining about top-posting is very "Get off my lawn, kids!"
I try to inline-post, except if I'm composing on a phone. But I don't much mind what style people use, as long as they don't quote the entire message and then add a line somewhere in the middle of it.
> Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
> postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
> response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
> helps everyone.
Technology changes too. I remember the days of UUCP-based Netnews, but it hasn't been that way in ages. Out-of-order receipt is no longer an issue, and nearly all mail clients show threads, so it's not hard to see the context of a reply.
> But do not include the entire original!
I can't help noticing you included Andy's entire original, Benoit :)
—Jens
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> just a short reminder that it is super helpful, to avoid top posting when
> replying in threads on the mailing-lists. It is very much easier to follow
> a conversation. I will not make a drama out of that but I would be happy,
> if you just keep it in mind. Always answer below the last answer :)
>
> Thanks and Cheers
>
> Andy
>
>
Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good. Since many
years top posting is generally used for summarising the content of the
inline response.
If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you
summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just
enough text of the original to give a context. This will make
sure readers understand when they start to read your response.
Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
helps everyone. But do not include the entire original!
- benoit
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Nick North <no...@gmail.com>.
On 23 January 2014 08:16, Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > +1. Top posting is the worst.
>
> In case you're being sarcastic (which seems likely), perhaps that is
> not the most productive response to a fairly low-key, open email. If
> you disagree, you could just say so and maybe explain why you think
> top-posting is as good or better...
>
To my mind it's no harder to read top down than bottom up in principle, but
mixing the two in one thread is very difficult. I'm not sure how best to
manage this, as I suspect we have a mixture of email clients that push you
quite hard in one direction or the other. I'll make a conscious effort in
future to try not to disrupt the existing flow of a thread, but can't
guarantee always to defeat the intentions of the software.
Nick
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de>.
It's cool to read all your thoughts about this. Thanks!
On 23 January 2014 10:38, Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl> wrote:
> Sorry for an extensive, point-by-point response, I promise I'm done
> with this subject now...
>
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Paul Davis
> <pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:16 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl>
> wrote:
> >> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Paul Davis <
> paul.joseph.davis@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> +1. Top posting is the worst.
> >>
> >> In case you're being sarcastic (which seems likely), perhaps that is
> >> not the most productive response to a fairly low-key, open email. If
> >> you disagree, you could just say so and maybe explain why you think
> >> top-posting is as good or better...
> >
> > Given the low-key and open email I didn't think a humorous response
> > would be frowned upon.
>
> It read to me as rather passive-aggressive, that's why I asked.
>
> > posting. Given that we're a mailing list I really do prefer inline
> > posting much more than strict top or bottom. If I'm replying
> > generally, I top post and rely on non dumb clients hiding quoted text.
> > If I'm replying point-by-point I inline post. Yes it makes reading a
> > single email from a long thread a bit more difficult but who cares
> > when we have public archives? If I get confused following a thread
> > there's an exact record of who said what. Alternatively I can just hit
> > reply and ask the original authors if a reply was confused somehow.
>
> I very much agree on inline posting. The problem with top-posting as I
> see it is mostly, that "replying generally" almost always isn't;
> especially not if the mail you're replying to was longer than a few
> emails. In those case, top-posting makes it quite hard to see what
> point you're actually responding to.
>
> > And then there's all the points raised by Nick in this thread about
> > clients that promote top posting due to interface, whether that be
> > difficult scrolling on a phone or GMail's compose windows.
>
> I think Nick's comments are completely reasonable, but I think they
> mostly agree with Andy's initial request saying "I would be happy if
> you just keep it in mind".
>
mission accomplished.
> > That said, making an off hand joke was probably a much more efficient
> > method to express how much I don't have an opinion on this issue.
>
> It may have been efficient for you with your high bandwidth interface
> to your own brain, it certainly wasn't efficient for me.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dirkjan
>
I agree with Paul, that it's hard to find the best way. But I do think
there should be at least a best practice. Maybe like this:
# +1 for a short summary on top and I suggest to bottom post, if no
inlining is needed.
# +1 for inlining.
# +1 in reading with the RFC Benoit posted.
# remember to not delete important stuff to be able to follow the discussion
At the end, it is good to spend some minutes and think about the points
here in this thread.
Thanks to all!
Cheers
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
http://www.couchdb-buch.de
http://www.pg-praxisbuch.de
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl>.
Sorry for an extensive, point-by-point response, I promise I'm done
with this subject now...
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Paul Davis
<pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:16 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> +1. Top posting is the worst.
>>
>> In case you're being sarcastic (which seems likely), perhaps that is
>> not the most productive response to a fairly low-key, open email. If
>> you disagree, you could just say so and maybe explain why you think
>> top-posting is as good or better...
>
> Given the low-key and open email I didn't think a humorous response
> would be frowned upon.
It read to me as rather passive-aggressive, that's why I asked.
> posting. Given that we're a mailing list I really do prefer inline
> posting much more than strict top or bottom. If I'm replying
> generally, I top post and rely on non dumb clients hiding quoted text.
> If I'm replying point-by-point I inline post. Yes it makes reading a
> single email from a long thread a bit more difficult but who cares
> when we have public archives? If I get confused following a thread
> there's an exact record of who said what. Alternatively I can just hit
> reply and ask the original authors if a reply was confused somehow.
I very much agree on inline posting. The problem with top-posting as I
see it is mostly, that "replying generally" almost always isn't;
especially not if the mail you're replying to was longer than a few
emails. In those case, top-posting makes it quite hard to see what
point you're actually responding to.
> And then there's all the points raised by Nick in this thread about
> clients that promote top posting due to interface, whether that be
> difficult scrolling on a phone or GMail's compose windows.
I think Nick's comments are completely reasonable, but I think they
mostly agree with Andy's initial request saying "I would be happy if
you just keep it in mind".
> That said, making an off hand joke was probably a much more efficient
> method to express how much I don't have an opinion on this issue.
It may have been efficient for you with your high bandwidth interface
to your own brain, it certainly wasn't efficient for me.
Cheers,
Dirkjan
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:16 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> +1. Top posting is the worst.
>
> In case you're being sarcastic (which seems likely), perhaps that is
> not the most productive response to a fairly low-key, open email. If
> you disagree, you could just say so and maybe explain why you think
> top-posting is as good or better...
Given the low-key and open email I didn't think a humorous response
would be frowned upon.
For a serious answer, the top vs. bottom posting debate has always
seemed like more of a personal style issue to me. Take for instance
the email you sent about in response to my joke. Given that your
bottom post trimmed away the entire context of the joke, unless
someone sees the original they may wonder why you thought I was being
sarcastic. I'd say that's a more important question than top or bottom
posting. Given that we're a mailing list I really do prefer inline
posting much more than strict top or bottom. If I'm replying
generally, I top post and rely on non dumb clients hiding quoted text.
If I'm replying point-by-point I inline post. Yes it makes reading a
single email from a long thread a bit more difficult but who cares
when we have public archives? If I get confused following a thread
there's an exact record of who said what. Alternatively I can just hit
reply and ask the original authors if a reply was confused somehow.
And then there's all the points raised by Nick in this thread about
clients that promote top posting due to interface, whether that be
difficult scrolling on a phone or GMail's compose windows.
In the end its fine to voice a personal preference on the issue but
that's all that's gonna happen. We're not going to require people to
bottom post (nor could we) and getting all upset about posting style
isn't very productive for numerous reasons (nor do I think anyone
would).
That said, making an off hand joke was probably a much more efficient
method to express how much I don't have an opinion on this issue.
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl>.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1. Top posting is the worst.
In case you're being sarcastic (which seems likely), perhaps that is
not the most productive response to a fairly low-key, open email. If
you disagree, you could just say so and maybe explain why you think
top-posting is as good or better...
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Nick North <no...@gmail.com>.
:-)
There's a collision of worlds here. I'm reading and replying on a phone, where top posting is much easier than scrolling down to the end. Top posting is also the default on Gmail and Outlook, meaning changing style for one recipient is a bit awkward. But I'll try to remember to post at the end after this if that's the style this group prefers.
Nick
> On 23 Jan 2014, at 07:09, Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> +1. Top posting is the worst.
>
>> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
>>> just a short reminder that it is super helpful, to avoid top posting when
>>> replying in threads on the mailing-lists. It is very much easier to follow
>>> a conversation. I will not make a drama out of that but I would be happy,
>>> if you just keep it in mind. Always answer below the last answer :)
>>
>> Yes, I've been thinking about writing this email as well. Thanks, Andy!
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Dirkjan
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com>.
+1. Top posting is the worst.
On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
>> just a short reminder that it is super helpful, to avoid top posting when
>> replying in threads on the mailing-lists. It is very much easier to follow
>> a conversation. I will not make a drama out of that but I would be happy,
>> if you just keep it in mind. Always answer below the last answer :)
>
> Yes, I've been thinking about writing this email as well. Thanks, Andy!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dirkjan
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com>.
+1. Top posting is the worst.
On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
>> just a short reminder that it is super helpful, to avoid top posting when
>> replying in threads on the mailing-lists. It is very much easier to follow
>> a conversation. I will not make a drama out of that but I would be happy,
>> if you just keep it in mind. Always answer below the last answer :)
>
> Yes, I've been thinking about writing this email as well. Thanks, Andy!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dirkjan
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com>.
+1. Top posting is the worst.
On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
>> just a short reminder that it is super helpful, to avoid top posting when
>> replying in threads on the mailing-lists. It is very much easier to follow
>> a conversation. I will not make a drama out of that but I would be happy,
>> if you just keep it in mind. Always answer below the last answer :)
>
> Yes, I've been thinking about writing this email as well. Thanks, Andy!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dirkjan
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl>.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> just a short reminder that it is super helpful, to avoid top posting when
> replying in threads on the mailing-lists. It is very much easier to follow
> a conversation. I will not make a drama out of that but I would be happy,
> if you just keep it in mind. Always answer below the last answer :)
Yes, I've been thinking about writing this email as well. Thanks, Andy!
Cheers,
Dirkjan
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> just a short reminder that it is super helpful, to avoid top posting when
> replying in threads on the mailing-lists. It is very much easier to follow
> a conversation. I will not make a drama out of that but I would be happy,
> if you just keep it in mind. Always answer below the last answer :)
>
> Thanks and Cheers
>
> Andy
>
>
Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good. Since many
years top posting is generally used for summarising the content of the
inline response.
If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you
summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just
enough text of the original to give a context. This will make
sure readers understand when they start to read your response.
Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
helps everyone. But do not include the entire original!
- benoit
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> just a short reminder that it is super helpful, to avoid top posting when
> replying in threads on the mailing-lists. It is very much easier to follow
> a conversation. I will not make a drama out of that but I would be happy,
> if you just keep it in mind. Always answer below the last answer :)
>
> Thanks and Cheers
>
> Andy
>
>
Just following http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 is good. Since many
years top posting is generally used for summarising the content of the
inline response.
If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you
summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just
enough text of the original to give a context. This will make
sure readers understand when they start to read your response.
Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the
postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a
response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context
helps everyone. But do not include the entire original!
- benoit
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl>.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> just a short reminder that it is super helpful, to avoid top posting when
> replying in threads on the mailing-lists. It is very much easier to follow
> a conversation. I will not make a drama out of that but I would be happy,
> if you just keep it in mind. Always answer below the last answer :)
Yes, I've been thinking about writing this email as well. Thanks, Andy!
Cheers,
Dirkjan
Re: Top posting in threads on the list's
Posted by Dirkjan Ochtman <di...@ochtman.nl>.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Andy Wenk <an...@nms.de> wrote:
> just a short reminder that it is super helpful, to avoid top posting when
> replying in threads on the mailing-lists. It is very much easier to follow
> a conversation. I will not make a drama out of that but I would be happy,
> if you just keep it in mind. Always answer below the last answer :)
Yes, I've been thinking about writing this email as well. Thanks, Andy!
Cheers,
Dirkjan