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Posted to dev@lucene.apache.org by Daniel Naber <da...@t-online.de> on 2004/12/06 23:29:07 UTC
do we need two FAQs?
Hi,
there are currently two FAQs for Lucene:
http://www.jguru.com/faq/Lucene
http://lucene.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/faq/faqmanager.cgi
To my mind that leads to redundancy and decreases the motivation to update
at least one of them. As the jguru FAQ is full of ads and more difficult
to navigate my suggestion is:
-Don't link the jguru FAQ anymore and then take it offline completely (so
that people don't find it via Google and think it's up-to-date)
-Copy missing items missing to the FAQ at sourceforge
-Make sure that all committers get write access to that FAQ
-Clean up and update the FAQ
Does anybody see a problem with that?
Regards
Daniel
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Re: do we need two FAQs?
Posted by Erik Hatcher <er...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
On Dec 6, 2004, at 5:36 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
> With a developer hat on; it'd be cool to use the Wiki as a database
> but write a dynamic front-end that reformatted the wiki page to put
> together a much nicer interface (like the lucene.sf.net one).
I second Henri's suggestion to use the wiki - allowing the community as
a whole to self-maintain the FAQ. With wiki changes being e-mailed to
us, we have oversight and can correct/refine anything we see fit.
Erik
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Re: do we need two FAQs?
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
As an aside and with my PMC hat on, is it worth trying to host the faq
at apache.org?
I remember there being a faq-o-matic thing that was always broken it
seems. I think Maven can output faq pages, but I suspect the fact you
have to then deploy the website removes some of the point of the whole
thing. Wiki's exist of course, but seem worse in terms of
user-interface.
With a developer hat on; it'd be cool to use the Wiki as a database
but write a dynamic front-end that reformatted the wiki page to put
together a much nicer interface (like the lucene.sf.net one).
Juss wonderin'
Hen
On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 23:29:07 +0100, Daniel Naber
<da...@t-online.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> there are currently two FAQs for Lucene:
>
> http://www.jguru.com/faq/Lucene
> http://lucene.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/faq/faqmanager.cgi
>
> To my mind that leads to redundancy and decreases the motivation to update
> at least one of them. As the jguru FAQ is full of ads and more difficult
> to navigate my suggestion is:
>
> -Don't link the jguru FAQ anymore and then take it offline completely (so
> that people don't find it via Google and think it's up-to-date)
> -Copy missing items missing to the FAQ at sourceforge
> -Make sure that all committers get write access to that FAQ
> -Clean up and update the FAQ
>
> Does anybody see a problem with that?
>
> Regards
> Daniel
>
> --
> http://www.danielnaber.de
>
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Re: do we need two FAQs?
Posted by Murray Altheim <m....@open.ac.uk>.
Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
> OK.
> Is this _really_ what everyone's okay with? I'm asking because once we
> put the FAQ onto Wiki we:
>
> 1. no longer have authoritative FAQ - anyone can write to the FAQ
> 2. we have to monitor the Wiki FAQ for correctness
> 3. we have no user-friendly GUI/webapp for Q/A formatting, which makes
> it more of a pain in the ass to contribute
>
> If anyone has any strong opinions, please share them. If I don't hear
> anything, I'll (try to) get the jGuru FAQ XML dump and give it to
> Daniel for 'wikification'.
Otis,
I can't speak with any authority in this group, but I can put in
a bit of my own experience.
I'd say that your three points above are a mixed bag, depending
on what the community wants (if the community has similar goals).
Does the FAQ need to be authoritive? If so, then don't use a wiki.
If the community wants its FAQ to be community-built and maintained,
then a wiki is probably the best way. Wikis are generally self-
policing when it comes to "correctness," but only insofar as there
are enthusiastic maintainers of that correctness. If the people
writing the core Lucene code are going to have to maintain the
wiki against the forces of chaos, then forget the wiki.
I don't think point #3 is so much a problem on wiki; you can have
a fair amount of control depending on the wiki software, but I
don't think most people think that much about formatting on wiki,
more about content.
For something where the kind of information being shared is a fairly
rare form of expertise, I personally think a publicly-modifiable wiki
is a very poor choice. Now, it's not difficult to gate access in
creating a write-protected wiki, where only those deemed eligible
to edit are allowed to make changes. I'd advocate that for the Lucene
FAQ if anything, but it sounds like this perhaps is not the place
for a wiki.
Having said that, a wiki would be a great place for developers and
users alike to share ideas, code, and generally be able to interact
and gradually build a corpus of "common knowledge." That's a bit
different than disseminating expertise as is done in a FAQ.
Murray
......................................................................
Murray Altheim http://kmi.open.ac.uk/people/murray/
Knowledge Media Institute
The Open University, Milton Keynes, Bucks, MK7 6AA, UK .
Empty handed, holding a hoe,
Walking, riding a water buffalo,
A man is crossing over a bridge;
The bridge, not the water, flows.
-- Mahasattva Fu, The Blue Cliff Record [96]
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Re: do we need two FAQs?
Posted by Otis Gospodnetic <ot...@yahoo.com>.
You are correct about the commercial aspect of jGuru - I didn't think
of that. No, there is no conflict of interest (adding FAQ entries is
not particularly exciting :)). No, I'm not the only one thinking Wiki
is not the best choice. However, it looks like people are leaning a
bit more towards the Wiki, so Wiki it is. I'll try to get the XML dump
from jGuru, so we don't lose the effort.
Otis
P.S.
I have a premium jGuru account, so I can search (Daniel mentioned one
can't search th FAQa) and I don't see the ads. Again, I forgot the
regular vs. premium differences.
--- Steven Rowe <sa...@syr.edu> wrote:
> I find it odd that the "official" FAQ for this important open source
> project is maintained at an external commercial website.
>
> When I first visited the jGuru FAQ a couple of years ago, I was put
> off by the "PREMIUM" notice next to Otis's name, and (for whatever
> reason) got the impression that only paying members could access the
> content. I later figured out this wasn't true, but only after having
>
> abandoned the effort the first time (and this is exactly when a
> project can least afford to put people off).
>
> Otis, check yourself. It's true that you are the FAQ maintainer, but
>
> only you are agreeing to keep things as they are, in the face of
> vocal
> opposition. There is the *appearance* of a conflict of interest in
> your stance (whether or not this is the case).
>
> In my opinion, the features jGuru provides do not win over those
> available via the Wiki (especially when you consider the blaring
> commercial messages you have to endure at jGuru). And the benefit of
>
> having a single place to go for info about Lucene puts the Wiki on
> top
> for me.
>
> +1 Wiki
> -1 jGuru
>
> Steve Rowe
>
> Daniel Naber wrote:
> > On Monday 20 December 2004 23:23, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I'd remove the older,
> >>unmaintained one. jGuru one is more up to date.
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately the start page of it contains three fat ads, that's
> three too
> > much for an Open Source project. Also it cannot be searched, and
> it's
> > difficult to read because not only the question is in bold but also
> the
> > category and the name. Almost all of this is better at both the
> > sourceforge FAQ and a Wiki FAQ.
> >
> > Regards
> > Daniel
> >
>
>
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Re: do we need two FAQs?
Posted by Steven Rowe <sa...@syr.edu>.
I find it odd that the "official" FAQ for this important open source
project is maintained at an external commercial website.
When I first visited the jGuru FAQ a couple of years ago, I was put
off by the "PREMIUM" notice next to Otis's name, and (for whatever
reason) got the impression that only paying members could access the
content. I later figured out this wasn't true, but only after having
abandoned the effort the first time (and this is exactly when a
project can least afford to put people off).
Otis, check yourself. It's true that you are the FAQ maintainer, but
only you are agreeing to keep things as they are, in the face of vocal
opposition. There is the *appearance* of a conflict of interest in
your stance (whether or not this is the case).
In my opinion, the features jGuru provides do not win over those
available via the Wiki (especially when you consider the blaring
commercial messages you have to endure at jGuru). And the benefit of
having a single place to go for info about Lucene puts the Wiki on top
for me.
+1 Wiki
-1 jGuru
Steve Rowe
Daniel Naber wrote:
> On Monday 20 December 2004 23:23, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
>
>
>> I'd remove the older,
>>unmaintained one. jGuru one is more up to date.
>
>
> Unfortunately the start page of it contains three fat ads, that's three too
> much for an Open Source project. Also it cannot be searched, and it's
> difficult to read because not only the question is in bold but also the
> category and the name. Almost all of this is better at both the
> sourceforge FAQ and a Wiki FAQ.
>
> Regards
> Daniel
>
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Re: do we need two FAQs?
Posted by Daniel Naber <da...@t-online.de>.
On Monday 20 December 2004 23:23, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
> I'd remove the older,
> unmaintained one. jGuru one is more up to date.
Unfortunately the start page of it contains three fat ads, that's three too
much for an Open Source project. Also it cannot be searched, and it's
difficult to read because not only the question is in bold but also the
category and the name. Almost all of this is better at both the
sourceforge FAQ and a Wiki FAQ.
Regards
Daniel
--
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Re: do we need two FAQs?
Posted by Otis Gospodnetic <ot...@yahoo.com>.
To me this all sounds like creation of extra work.
We have 2 FAQs, and that IS lame. Remove one. I'd remove the older,
unmaintained one. jGuru one is more up to date.
I'd use Wiki for community info, which is how we are already usin Wiki.
No need for 1) 2) 3) options at all.
Done deal. No discussion, no new work.
Otis (simplify is my new motton ;))
--- Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As I unintentionally kicked off the Wiki suggestion, thought I'd
> offer
> an opinion.
>
> My original thought was that a Wiki wouldn't be as nice as the
> current
> ones, but it would be a nice thing if somehow we could have a wiki
> back-end with a nicer front-end. I wasn't trying to push for the wiki
> though, I mainly wanted to just see if there's a reason for us to try
> and get Infra to install some kind of FAQ software at the ASF.
>
> It seems there are three options to try and have the content at the
> ASF:
>
> 1) Use the Wiki. Good for open community maintained FAQs. Looks poor.
> 2) Put it on the site. I imagine there's something that can take a
> FAQ
> in XML and output a nice website etc. This is good for project
> maintained official-FAQ stuff.
> 3) Get dynamic FAQ software for the ASF (or code it :) ). I'm not
> sure
> if there are good use-cases for such a thing, ie) how many advantages
> do the current ones have over 1) and 2).
>
> Blue-sky thoughts,
>
> Hen
>
> On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 11:46:57 -0500, Erik Hatcher
> <er...@ehatchersolutions.com> wrote:
> > I still view the wiki as the best place for the "FAQ", however it
> is
> > described. As a committer with far too many "commitments", I'd
> prefer
> > to see a community maintained FAQ rather than one that requires us
> > committers to maintain it in source code control.
> >
> > Erik
> >
> > On Dec 20, 2004, at 11:23 AM, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
> >
> > > Wikis have their place as information repositories. It sounds
> like
> > > what you are describing is not a FAQ, though, no? I'm all for
> using
> > > Lucene Wiki as we are currently using - scratch pad, whiteboard,
> > > community tips, etc. I think the FAQ is a slighly different
> beast,
> > > hence my double-checking with lucene-dev people.
> > >
> > > I'm still unsure about the best setup, so I'll wait a little
> longer to
> > > hear some more opinions.
> > >
> > > Otis
> > >
> > > --- Erik Hatcher <er...@ehatchersolutions.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Dec 19, 2004, at 8:37 PM, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
> > >>> OK.
> > >>> Is this _really_ what everyone's okay with? I'm asking because
> > >> once we
> > >>> put the FAQ onto Wiki we:
> > >>>
> > >>> 1. no longer have authoritative FAQ - anyone can write to the
> FAQ
> > >>> 2. we have to monitor the Wiki FAQ for correctness
> > >>> 3. we have no user-friendly GUI/webapp for Q/A formatting,
> which
> > >> makes
> > >>> it more of a pain in the ass to contribute
> > >>>
> > >>> If anyone has any strong opinions, please share them. If I
> don't
> > >> hear
> > >>> anything, I'll (try to) get the jGuru FAQ XML dump and give it
> to
> > >>> Daniel for 'wikification'.
> > >>
> > >> I prefer to leverage the wiki for this type of information for a
> > >> number
> > >> of reasons. It is self-maintaining, not requiring a committer
> to
> > >> take
> > >> time out to commit changes and update the website. We have
> e-mail
> > >> notification of wiki modifications and thus we already have
> > >> monitoring.
> > >> There are many cases when using Lucene when the answer is "it
> > >> depends"
> > >> (such as the filtering question that just came up). Having a
> wiki
> > >> "whiteboard" for these scenarios allows for a broader
> perspective.
> > >>
> > >> Erik
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> lucene-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
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> >
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Re: do we need two FAQs?
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
As I unintentionally kicked off the Wiki suggestion, thought I'd offer
an opinion.
My original thought was that a Wiki wouldn't be as nice as the current
ones, but it would be a nice thing if somehow we could have a wiki
back-end with a nicer front-end. I wasn't trying to push for the wiki
though, I mainly wanted to just see if there's a reason for us to try
and get Infra to install some kind of FAQ software at the ASF.
It seems there are three options to try and have the content at the ASF:
1) Use the Wiki. Good for open community maintained FAQs. Looks poor.
2) Put it on the site. I imagine there's something that can take a FAQ
in XML and output a nice website etc. This is good for project
maintained official-FAQ stuff.
3) Get dynamic FAQ software for the ASF (or code it :) ). I'm not sure
if there are good use-cases for such a thing, ie) how many advantages
do the current ones have over 1) and 2).
Blue-sky thoughts,
Hen
On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 11:46:57 -0500, Erik Hatcher
<er...@ehatchersolutions.com> wrote:
> I still view the wiki as the best place for the "FAQ", however it is
> described. As a committer with far too many "commitments", I'd prefer
> to see a community maintained FAQ rather than one that requires us
> committers to maintain it in source code control.
>
> Erik
>
> On Dec 20, 2004, at 11:23 AM, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
>
> > Wikis have their place as information repositories. It sounds like
> > what you are describing is not a FAQ, though, no? I'm all for using
> > Lucene Wiki as we are currently using - scratch pad, whiteboard,
> > community tips, etc. I think the FAQ is a slighly different beast,
> > hence my double-checking with lucene-dev people.
> >
> > I'm still unsure about the best setup, so I'll wait a little longer to
> > hear some more opinions.
> >
> > Otis
> >
> > --- Erik Hatcher <er...@ehatchersolutions.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Dec 19, 2004, at 8:37 PM, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
> >>> OK.
> >>> Is this _really_ what everyone's okay with? I'm asking because
> >> once we
> >>> put the FAQ onto Wiki we:
> >>>
> >>> 1. no longer have authoritative FAQ - anyone can write to the FAQ
> >>> 2. we have to monitor the Wiki FAQ for correctness
> >>> 3. we have no user-friendly GUI/webapp for Q/A formatting, which
> >> makes
> >>> it more of a pain in the ass to contribute
> >>>
> >>> If anyone has any strong opinions, please share them. If I don't
> >> hear
> >>> anything, I'll (try to) get the jGuru FAQ XML dump and give it to
> >>> Daniel for 'wikification'.
> >>
> >> I prefer to leverage the wiki for this type of information for a
> >> number
> >> of reasons. It is self-maintaining, not requiring a committer to
> >> take
> >> time out to commit changes and update the website. We have e-mail
> >> notification of wiki modifications and thus we already have
> >> monitoring.
> >> There are many cases when using Lucene when the answer is "it
> >> depends"
> >> (such as the filtering question that just came up). Having a wiki
> >> "whiteboard" for these scenarios allows for a broader perspective.
> >>
> >> Erik
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: lucene-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
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Re: do we need two FAQs?
Posted by Erik Hatcher <er...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
I still view the wiki as the best place for the "FAQ", however it is
described. As a committer with far too many "commitments", I'd prefer
to see a community maintained FAQ rather than one that requires us
committers to maintain it in source code control.
Erik
On Dec 20, 2004, at 11:23 AM, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
> Wikis have their place as information repositories. It sounds like
> what you are describing is not a FAQ, though, no? I'm all for using
> Lucene Wiki as we are currently using - scratch pad, whiteboard,
> community tips, etc. I think the FAQ is a slighly different beast,
> hence my double-checking with lucene-dev people.
>
> I'm still unsure about the best setup, so I'll wait a little longer to
> hear some more opinions.
>
> Otis
>
> --- Erik Hatcher <er...@ehatchersolutions.com> wrote:
>
>> On Dec 19, 2004, at 8:37 PM, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
>>> OK.
>>> Is this _really_ what everyone's okay with? I'm asking because
>> once we
>>> put the FAQ onto Wiki we:
>>>
>>> 1. no longer have authoritative FAQ - anyone can write to the FAQ
>>> 2. we have to monitor the Wiki FAQ for correctness
>>> 3. we have no user-friendly GUI/webapp for Q/A formatting, which
>> makes
>>> it more of a pain in the ass to contribute
>>>
>>> If anyone has any strong opinions, please share them. If I don't
>> hear
>>> anything, I'll (try to) get the jGuru FAQ XML dump and give it to
>>> Daniel for 'wikification'.
>>
>> I prefer to leverage the wiki for this type of information for a
>> number
>> of reasons. It is self-maintaining, not requiring a committer to
>> take
>> time out to commit changes and update the website. We have e-mail
>> notification of wiki modifications and thus we already have
>> monitoring.
>> There are many cases when using Lucene when the answer is "it
>> depends"
>> (such as the filtering question that just came up). Having a wiki
>> "whiteboard" for these scenarios allows for a broader perspective.
>>
>> Erik
>
>
>
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Re: do we need two FAQs?
Posted by Otis Gospodnetic <ot...@yahoo.com>.
Wikis have their place as information repositories. It sounds like
what you are describing is not a FAQ, though, no? I'm all for using
Lucene Wiki as we are currently using - scratch pad, whiteboard,
community tips, etc. I think the FAQ is a slighly different beast,
hence my double-checking with lucene-dev people.
I'm still unsure about the best setup, so I'll wait a little longer to
hear some more opinions.
Otis
--- Erik Hatcher <er...@ehatchersolutions.com> wrote:
> On Dec 19, 2004, at 8:37 PM, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
> > OK.
> > Is this _really_ what everyone's okay with? I'm asking because
> once we
> > put the FAQ onto Wiki we:
> >
> > 1. no longer have authoritative FAQ - anyone can write to the FAQ
> > 2. we have to monitor the Wiki FAQ for correctness
> > 3. we have no user-friendly GUI/webapp for Q/A formatting, which
> makes
> > it more of a pain in the ass to contribute
> >
> > If anyone has any strong opinions, please share them. If I don't
> hear
> > anything, I'll (try to) get the jGuru FAQ XML dump and give it to
> > Daniel for 'wikification'.
>
> I prefer to leverage the wiki for this type of information for a
> number
> of reasons. It is self-maintaining, not requiring a committer to
> take
> time out to commit changes and update the website. We have e-mail
> notification of wiki modifications and thus we already have
> monitoring.
> There are many cases when using Lucene when the answer is "it
> depends"
> (such as the filtering question that just came up). Having a wiki
> "whiteboard" for these scenarios allows for a broader perspective.
>
> Erik
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Re: do we need two FAQs?
Posted by Erik Hatcher <er...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
On Dec 19, 2004, at 8:37 PM, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
> OK.
> Is this _really_ what everyone's okay with? I'm asking because once we
> put the FAQ onto Wiki we:
>
> 1. no longer have authoritative FAQ - anyone can write to the FAQ
> 2. we have to monitor the Wiki FAQ for correctness
> 3. we have no user-friendly GUI/webapp for Q/A formatting, which makes
> it more of a pain in the ass to contribute
>
> If anyone has any strong opinions, please share them. If I don't hear
> anything, I'll (try to) get the jGuru FAQ XML dump and give it to
> Daniel for 'wikification'.
I prefer to leverage the wiki for this type of information for a number
of reasons. It is self-maintaining, not requiring a committer to take
time out to commit changes and update the website. We have e-mail
notification of wiki modifications and thus we already have monitoring.
There are many cases when using Lucene when the answer is "it depends"
(such as the filtering question that just came up). Having a wiki
"whiteboard" for these scenarios allows for a broader perspective.
Erik
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Re: do we need two FAQs?
Posted by Otis Gospodnetic <ot...@yahoo.com>.
OK.
Is this _really_ what everyone's okay with? I'm asking because once we
put the FAQ onto Wiki we:
1. no longer have authoritative FAQ - anyone can write to the FAQ
2. we have to monitor the Wiki FAQ for correctness
3. we have no user-friendly GUI/webapp for Q/A formatting, which makes
it more of a pain in the ass to contribute
If anyone has any strong opinions, please share them. If I don't hear
anything, I'll (try to) get the jGuru FAQ XML dump and give it to
Daniel for 'wikification'.
Otis
--- Daniel Naber <da...@t-online.de> wrote:
> On Tuesday 07 December 2004 02:23, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
>
> > jGuru can provide XML dump of a FAQ, and I believe I can obtain it,
> if
> > you want to use that to seed the Wiki FAQ.
>
> Could you try to get that XML for me? I'll then semi-automatically
> import
> it to the existing "FAQ" page in our wiki.
>
> Regards
> Daniel
>
> --
> http://www.danielnaber.de
>
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Re: do we need two FAQs?
Posted by Daniel Naber <da...@t-online.de>.
On Tuesday 07 December 2004 02:23, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
> jGuru can provide XML dump of a FAQ, and I believe I can obtain it, if
> you want to use that to seed the Wiki FAQ.
Could you try to get that XML for me? I'll then semi-automatically import
it to the existing "FAQ" page in our wiki.
Regards
Daniel
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Re: do we need two FAQs?
Posted by Otis Gospodnetic <ot...@yahoo.com>.
Less is more. One FAQ is better than two. Although I maintain the
jGuru FAQ, I don't have any issues with going the Wiki approach
(although I'm not a big fan of Wikis, because they require me to learn
yet another made-up markup language), and going the community-supplied
FAQ.
jGuru can provide XML dump of a FAQ, and I believe I can obtain it, if
you want to use that to seed the Wiki FAQ. But let's hear some more
opinions before doing anything. Maybe you should ask users on
lucene-user, since that's where the people who depend on Lucene FAQ
are.
Otis
--- Daniel Naber <da...@t-online.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> there are currently two FAQs for Lucene:
>
> http://www.jguru.com/faq/Lucene
> http://lucene.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/faq/faqmanager.cgi
>
> To my mind that leads to redundancy and decreases the motivation to
> update
> at least one of them. As the jguru FAQ is full of ads and more
> difficult
> to navigate my suggestion is:
>
> -Don't link the jguru FAQ anymore and then take it offline completely
> (so
> that people don't find it via Google and think it's up-to-date)
> -Copy missing items missing to the FAQ at sourceforge
> -Make sure that all committers get write access to that FAQ
> -Clean up and update the FAQ
>
> Does anybody see a problem with that?
>
> Regards
> Daniel
>
> --
> http://www.danielnaber.de
>
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