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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@anyware-tech.com> on 2001/12/28 19:15:20 UTC
[vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re: Over-Logging)
giacomo a écrit :
>
> On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
> >
> > Torsten Curdt a écrit :
> > >
> > > > Now that I am back working with Cocoon, I have recently come to the conclusion that DEBUG
> > > > simply outputs too much information. For one (1) request, Cocoon outputs 23 pages of
> > > > log messages equivalent to 57k on the drive.
> > > >
> > > > My friends, this is too much. Logging should have a purpose, and not simply spout information
> > > > for information's sake. I am trying to track down what is going on in the XSP engine,
> > > > and I have to sift through 57k of messages.
> > >
> > > I like to second that
> > >
> > > > Principal of Diminishing Returns
> > > > --------------------------------
> > > > It is important to understand the principal of diminishing returns. Basically, it boils
> > > > down to the concept that 90% correctness only takes 10% of the effort. It is that last
> > > > 10% of correctness that takes up the remaining 90% of the effort. Our logging has reached
> > > > critical mass. By logging anything and everything, we have an unusable mess.
> > > >
> > > > I am not sure what needs to be done. Some categories need to be logged, while others
> > > > do not. It all depends on what you are tracking down. We need to have more folks
> > > > understand the LogKit configuration file, so that we can have a much finer grained
> > > > control. Since it is a major point of Cocoon's configuration Cocoon needs to document
> > > > it in the xdocs. The inline comments are not very clean, perhaps we need separators
> > > > that demarcate the beginning and ends of the comments.
> >
> > What do you mean by "separators that demarcate..." ? A special formatter
> > that adds linefeeds in the log file ?
> >
> > We may also remove some debug messages : many of them were used to debug
> > components during their writing, and they aren't useful anymore now that
> > they are stable.
> >
> > > So you like to get rid of this mess by configuring logkit?
> > >
> > > Actually I'm wondering if we have enough categories
> > > to really get back to a fine grained control this way.
> >
> > We can add more categories : in my sitemaps, each component has a
> > different category (using the "logger" attribute) :
> >
> > sitemap.generator.file
> > sitemap.generator.directory
> > sitemap.generator.serverpages
> > sitemap.transformer.xslt
> > sitemap.transformer.log
> > sitemap.serializer.xml
> > sitemap.serializer.html
> > sitemap.matcher.wildcard
> > ...
>
> This is what it was originally proposed to be used for. I wasn't willing
> to go this far for the version we distribute with the CVS and releases
> but we can vote to have this in CVS.
>
> > This leads to a fine-grained hierarchical classification of categories
> > which allows to easily track messages in a particular area. This is also
> > applicable to components in cocoon.xconf.
OK. TEAM, your votes about adding fine-grained categories in
sitemap.xmap and cocoon.xconf as described above ?
+1 from me.
>
> Do you log those messages into one file or different file (prob. one
> per category?)
I use two targets : one file for all messages, and a target I've written
for a commercial swing GUI (see
http://www.servidium.com/site/logfactor5/index.html) which has a nice
handling of log hierarchies.
Fine-grained categories allows to quickly find messages output by a
particular component and having a single file allows to easily consult
other related logs (e.g. all log messages for a given request).
> > If you like this approach, I can add it in the CVS.
>
> I'm not sure about it so +0.
>
> > The only drawback is that LogKit complains about categories not
> > explicitly declared in logkit.xconf. Maybe LogKit shouldn't be so picky
> > about that and just act as a configuration front-end to Hierarchy (i.e.
> > remove the m_loggers HashMap).
>
> This can be fixed (I wrote it) but IIRC it's a debugging (or should
> be) message and thus might be helpfull in that aspect.
I would be thankful if you fix it, because it produces a _warning_
message each time a component asks for a logger that's not in the
configuration-defined categories.
> Giacomo
>
> >
> > Thoughts ?
> >
> > Sylvain.
> >
> > > --
> > > Torsten
> > >
> >
--
Sylvain Wallez
Anyware Technologies - http://www.anyware-tech.com
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Re: [vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re: Over-Logging)
Posted by Bernhard Huber <be...@a1.net>.
+1 from me.
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
>giacomo a écrit :
>
>>On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>>
>>>Torsten Curdt a écrit :
>>>
>>>>>Now that I am back working with Cocoon, I have recently come to the conclusion that DEBUG
>>>>>simply outputs too much information. For one (1) request, Cocoon outputs 23 pages of
>>>>>log messages equivalent to 57k on the drive.
>>>>>
>>>>>My friends, this is too much. Logging should have a purpose, and not simply spout information
>>>>>for information's sake. I am trying to track down what is going on in the XSP engine,
>>>>>and I have to sift through 57k of messages.
>>>>>
>>>>I like to second that
>>>>
>>>>>Principal of Diminishing Returns
>>>>>--------------------------------
>>>>>It is important to understand the principal of diminishing returns. Basically, it boils
>>>>>down to the concept that 90% correctness only takes 10% of the effort. It is that last
>>>>>10% of correctness that takes up the remaining 90% of the effort. Our logging has reached
>>>>>critical mass. By logging anything and everything, we have an unusable mess.
>>>>>
>>>>>I am not sure what needs to be done. Some categories need to be logged, while others
>>>>>do not. It all depends on what you are tracking down. We need to have more folks
>>>>>understand the LogKit configuration file, so that we can have a much finer grained
>>>>>control. Since it is a major point of Cocoon's configuration Cocoon needs to document
>>>>>it in the xdocs. The inline comments are not very clean, perhaps we need separators
>>>>>that demarcate the beginning and ends of the comments.
>>>>>
>>>What do you mean by "separators that demarcate..." ? A special formatter
>>>that adds linefeeds in the log file ?
>>>
>>>We may also remove some debug messages : many of them were used to debug
>>>components during their writing, and they aren't useful anymore now that
>>>they are stable.
>>>
>>>>So you like to get rid of this mess by configuring logkit?
>>>>
>>>>Actually I'm wondering if we have enough categories
>>>>to really get back to a fine grained control this way.
>>>>
>>>We can add more categories : in my sitemaps, each component has a
>>>different category (using the "logger" attribute) :
>>>
>>>sitemap.generator.file
>>>sitemap.generator.directory
>>>sitemap.generator.serverpages
>>>sitemap.transformer.xslt
>>>sitemap.transformer.log
>>>sitemap.serializer.xml
>>>sitemap.serializer.html
>>>sitemap.matcher.wildcard
>>>...
>>>
>>This is what it was originally proposed to be used for. I wasn't willing
>>to go this far for the version we distribute with the CVS and releases
>>but we can vote to have this in CVS.
>>
>>>This leads to a fine-grained hierarchical classification of categories
>>>which allows to easily track messages in a particular area. This is also
>>>applicable to components in cocoon.xconf.
>>>
>
>OK. TEAM, your votes about adding fine-grained categories in
>sitemap.xmap and cocoon.xconf as described above ?
>
>+1 from me.
>
>>Do you log those messages into one file or different file (prob. one
>>per category?)
>>
>
>I use two targets : one file for all messages, and a target I've written
>for a commercial swing GUI (see
>http://www.servidium.com/site/logfactor5/index.html) which has a nice
>handling of log hierarchies.
>
>Fine-grained categories allows to quickly find messages output by a
>particular component and having a single file allows to easily consult
>other related logs (e.g. all log messages for a given request).
>
>>>If you like this approach, I can add it in the CVS.
>>>
>>I'm not sure about it so +0.
>>
>>>The only drawback is that LogKit complains about categories not
>>>explicitly declared in logkit.xconf. Maybe LogKit shouldn't be so picky
>>>about that and just act as a configuration front-end to Hierarchy (i.e.
>>>remove the m_loggers HashMap).
>>>
>>This can be fixed (I wrote it) but IIRC it's a debugging (or should
>>be) message and thus might be helpfull in that aspect.
>>
>
>I would be thankful if you fix it, because it produces a _warning_
>message each time a component asks for a logger that's not in the
>configuration-defined categories.
>
>>Giacomo
>>
>>>Thoughts ?
>>>
>>>Sylvain.
>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Torsten
>>>>
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RE: [vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re: Over-Logging)
Posted by Gerhard Froehlich <g-...@gmx.de>.
Hi Team,
+1 from me!
"All the trouble in the world is due to the
fact that man cannot sit still in a room.
(Blaise Pascal)"
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Carsten Ziegeler [mailto:cziegeler@s-und-n.de]
>Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 8:44 AM
>To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
>Subject: RE: [vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re:
>Over-Logging)
>
>
>+1 from me
>
>Carsten
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Davanum Srinivas [mailto:dims@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 7:39 PM
>> To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re:
>> Over-Logging)
>>
>>
>> +1 from me.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> dims
>>
>> --- Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org> wrote:
>> > Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > >>>We can add more categories : in my sitemaps, each component has a
>> > >>>different category (using the "logger" attribute) :
>> > >>>
>> > >>>sitemap.generator.file
>> > >>>sitemap.generator.directory
>> > >>>sitemap.generator.serverpages
>> > >>>sitemap.transformer.xslt
>> > >>>sitemap.transformer.log
>> > >>>sitemap.serializer.xml
>> > >>>sitemap.serializer.html
>> > >>>sitemap.matcher.wildcard
>> > >>>...
>> > >>>
>> > >>This is what it was originally proposed to be used for. I
>> wasn't willing
>> > >>to go this far for the version we distribute with the CVS and releases
>> > >>but we can vote to have this in CVS.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>>This leads to a fine-grained hierarchical classification of
>> categories
>> > >>>which allows to easily track messages in a particular area.
>> This is also
>> > >>>applicable to components in cocoon.xconf.
>> > >>>
>> > >
>> > > OK. TEAM, your votes about adding fine-grained categories in
>> > > sitemap.xmap and cocoon.xconf as described above ?
>> > >
>> > > +1 from me.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > +1 from me
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
>> > deserve neither liberty nor safety."
>> > - Benjamin Franklin
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
>> >
>>
>>
>> =====
>> Davanum Srinivas - http://jguru.com/dims/
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
>> http://greetings.yahoo.com
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
>>
>
>
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RE: [vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re: Over-Logging)
Posted by Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@s-und-n.de>.
+1 from me
Carsten
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Davanum Srinivas [mailto:dims@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 7:39 PM
> To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re:
> Over-Logging)
>
>
> +1 from me.
>
> Thanks,
> dims
>
> --- Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org> wrote:
> > Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >>>We can add more categories : in my sitemaps, each component has a
> > >>>different category (using the "logger" attribute) :
> > >>>
> > >>>sitemap.generator.file
> > >>>sitemap.generator.directory
> > >>>sitemap.generator.serverpages
> > >>>sitemap.transformer.xslt
> > >>>sitemap.transformer.log
> > >>>sitemap.serializer.xml
> > >>>sitemap.serializer.html
> > >>>sitemap.matcher.wildcard
> > >>>...
> > >>>
> > >>This is what it was originally proposed to be used for. I
> wasn't willing
> > >>to go this far for the version we distribute with the CVS and releases
> > >>but we can vote to have this in CVS.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>This leads to a fine-grained hierarchical classification of
> categories
> > >>>which allows to easily track messages in a particular area.
> This is also
> > >>>applicable to components in cocoon.xconf.
> > >>>
> > >
> > > OK. TEAM, your votes about adding fine-grained categories in
> > > sitemap.xmap and cocoon.xconf as described above ?
> > >
> > > +1 from me.
> >
> >
> >
> > +1 from me
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
> > deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> > - Benjamin Franklin
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> > For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
> >
>
>
> =====
> Davanum Srinivas - http://jguru.com/dims/
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
> http://greetings.yahoo.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re: Over-Logging)
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <di...@yahoo.com>.
+1 from me.
Thanks,
dims
--- Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org> wrote:
> Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
> >
>
> >>>We can add more categories : in my sitemaps, each component has a
> >>>different category (using the "logger" attribute) :
> >>>
> >>>sitemap.generator.file
> >>>sitemap.generator.directory
> >>>sitemap.generator.serverpages
> >>>sitemap.transformer.xslt
> >>>sitemap.transformer.log
> >>>sitemap.serializer.xml
> >>>sitemap.serializer.html
> >>>sitemap.matcher.wildcard
> >>>...
> >>>
> >>This is what it was originally proposed to be used for. I wasn't willing
> >>to go this far for the version we distribute with the CVS and releases
> >>but we can vote to have this in CVS.
> >>
> >>
> >>>This leads to a fine-grained hierarchical classification of categories
> >>>which allows to easily track messages in a particular area. This is also
> >>>applicable to components in cocoon.xconf.
> >>>
> >
> > OK. TEAM, your votes about adding fine-grained categories in
> > sitemap.xmap and cocoon.xconf as described above ?
> >
> > +1 from me.
>
>
>
> +1 from me
>
>
>
> --
>
> "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
> deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> - Benjamin Franklin
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
>
=====
Davanum Srinivas - http://jguru.com/dims/
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
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Re: [vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re: Over-Logging)
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
>>>We can add more categories : in my sitemaps, each component has a
>>>different category (using the "logger" attribute) :
>>>
>>>sitemap.generator.file
>>>sitemap.generator.directory
>>>sitemap.generator.serverpages
>>>sitemap.transformer.xslt
>>>sitemap.transformer.log
>>>sitemap.serializer.xml
>>>sitemap.serializer.html
>>>sitemap.matcher.wildcard
>>>...
>>>
>>This is what it was originally proposed to be used for. I wasn't willing
>>to go this far for the version we distribute with the CVS and releases
>>but we can vote to have this in CVS.
>>
>>
>>>This leads to a fine-grained hierarchical classification of categories
>>>which allows to easily track messages in a particular area. This is also
>>>applicable to components in cocoon.xconf.
>>>
>
> OK. TEAM, your votes about adding fine-grained categories in
> sitemap.xmap and cocoon.xconf as described above ?
>
> +1 from me.
+1 from me
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: [vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re: Over-Logging)
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@anyware-tech.com>.
giacomo a écrit :
>
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
> > giacomo wrote:
> >
> > <snip/>
> >
> >
> > >>>>The only drawback is that LogKit complains about categories not
> > >>>>explicitly declared in logkit.xconf. Maybe LogKit shouldn't be so picky
> > >>>>about that and just act as a configuration front-end to Hierarchy (i.e.
> > >>>>remove the m_loggers HashMap).
> > >>>>
> > >>>This can be fixed (I wrote it) but IIRC it's a debugging (or should
> > >>>be) message and thus might be helpfull in that aspect.
> > >>>
> > >>I would be thankful if you fix it, because it produces a _warning_
> > >>message each time a component asks for a logger that's not in the
> > >>configuration-defined categories.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Ok, I've reduced from WARN to DEBUG and will commit it soon into C2.
> > >
> > > Giacomo
> > >
> >
> > Thanks, Giacomo, but I was saying that IMHO, LogKitManager shouldn't
> > even care about that. It's role is to configure a Hierarchy (most often
> > its top-level categories) and give access to this hierarchy to get
> > loggers, but the definition of categories is the responsibility of
> > xconf/sitemap writers.
>
> Right, and thus debugging messages are quite usefull for that.
>
> > With the hierarchized categories we will now have (many +1 for this
> > vote), LogKitManager will issue a great number of debug messages which
> > don't give any usefull information.
>
> I don't agree about "don't give any usefull information". The
> information is that there could be other categories/hierarchies to
> possibly taken care of with a different logkit configuration. And, hey,
> they're "only" debugging messages. Have you ever run a SAMBA server or a
> Squid proxy in debugging mode? Do you think that information is usefull
> for you? Probably not, because you are not used to that kind of
> information. But is common to debugging messages that not everybody is
> able to understand. So my proposal is to move to INFO level instead.
>
> Giacomo
Mmmh... seems I irritated you with "any usefull" :/
So let's keep it, but please as debug.
Sylvain.
--
Sylvain Wallez
Anyware Technologies - http://www.anyware-tech.com
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Re: [vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re: Over-Logging)
Posted by giacomo <gi...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> giacomo wrote:
>
> <snip/>
>
>
> >>>>The only drawback is that LogKit complains about categories not
> >>>>explicitly declared in logkit.xconf. Maybe LogKit shouldn't be so picky
> >>>>about that and just act as a configuration front-end to Hierarchy (i.e.
> >>>>remove the m_loggers HashMap).
> >>>>
> >>>This can be fixed (I wrote it) but IIRC it's a debugging (or should
> >>>be) message and thus might be helpfull in that aspect.
> >>>
> >>I would be thankful if you fix it, because it produces a _warning_
> >>message each time a component asks for a logger that's not in the
> >>configuration-defined categories.
> >>
> >
> > Ok, I've reduced from WARN to DEBUG and will commit it soon into C2.
> >
> > Giacomo
> >
>
> Thanks, Giacomo, but I was saying that IMHO, LogKitManager shouldn't
> even care about that. It's role is to configure a Hierarchy (most often
> its top-level categories) and give access to this hierarchy to get
> loggers, but the definition of categories is the responsibility of
> xconf/sitemap writers.
Right, and thus debugging messages are quite usefull for that.
> With the hierarchized categories we will now have (many +1 for this
> vote), LogKitManager will issue a great number of debug messages which
> don't give any usefull information.
I don't agree about "don't give any usefull information". The
information is that there could be other categories/hierarchies to
possibly taken care of with a different logkit configuration. And, hey,
they're "only" debugging messages. Have you ever run a SAMBA server or a
Squid proxy in debugging mode? Do you think that information is usefull
for you? Probably not, because you are not used to that kind of
information. But is common to debugging messages that not everybody is
able to understand. So my proposal is to move to INFO level instead.
Giacomo
>
> What do you think ?
>
> Sylvain.
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re: Over-Logging)
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@anyware-tech.com>.
giacomo wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
>
>>giacomo wrote:
>>
>><snip/>
>>
>>
>>>>>>The only drawback is that LogKit complains about categories not
>>>>>>explicitly declared in logkit.xconf. Maybe LogKit shouldn't be so picky
>>>>>>about that and just act as a configuration front-end to Hierarchy (i.e.
>>>>>>remove the m_loggers HashMap).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>This can be fixed (I wrote it) but IIRC it's a debugging (or should
>>>>>be) message and thus might be helpfull in that aspect.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>I would be thankful if you fix it, because it produces a _warning_
>>>>message each time a component asks for a logger that's not in the
>>>>configuration-defined categories.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Ok, I've reduced from WARN to DEBUG and will commit it soon into C2.
>>>
>>>Giacomo
>>>
>>>
>>Thanks, Giacomo, but I was saying that IMHO, LogKitManager shouldn't
>>even care about that. It's role is to configure a Hierarchy (most often
>>its top-level categories) and give access to this hierarchy to get
>>loggers, but the definition of categories is the responsibility of
>>xconf/sitemap writers.
>>
>
> Sure, that's what that debugging messages is helping in finding (maybe
> unintentionally) misspelled logging categories attached to components
> with the logger attribute which are not define in the logkit.xconf.
>
>
>>With the hierarchized categories we will now have (many +1 for this
>>vote), LogKitManager will issue a great number of debug messages which
>>don't give any usefull information.
>>
>
> Give me some example of "not usefull messages" which you think should be
> removed. There a only 5 or 6 places where logging messages are issued so
> IMO there aren't "a great number of debug messages"
>
> Giacomo
>
>
>>What do you think ?
>>
>>Sylvain.
OK, I wasn't clear. I wasn't talking about the number of logging
statements, but the number of produced log messages.
Let's explain it another way :)
In the proposed new logging categories, all sitemap-related logs go into
the "sitemap" category or one of its children.
We then have the following categories :
- "sitemap"
- "sitemap.generator.resource"
- "sitemap.generator.serverpages"
- "sitemap.transformer.xslt"
- "sitemap.transformer.i18n"
- ...
No consider the following in the current Cocoon's logkit.xconf :
<categories>
<category name="sitemap" log-level="DEBUG">
<log-target id-ref="sitemap"/>
<log-target id-ref="error"/>
</category>
...
</categories>
Each time a SitemapComponentSelector creates a component, LogKitManager
will output a log saying "Logger for category sitemap.xxx not defined in
configuration. New logger created and returned", because only the main
"sitemap" category is known to it (not its children).
I've seen several people here confused by this message. They thought
something was wrong when that was just because LogKitManager only has
knowledge of parent categories (or even just the root category) but
doesn't know any of the deeper levels in the category tree.
That's why I was suggesting you could remove m_loggers : it tracks
categories known to the LogKitManager just to be able to issue these
(confusing) messages, and honestly they don't really help to find
spelling mistakes in child caterogy names.
Hope it is more clear now ;)
Sylvain.
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Re: [vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re: Over-Logging)
Posted by giacomo <gi...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> giacomo wrote:
>
> <snip/>
>
>
> >>>>The only drawback is that LogKit complains about categories not
> >>>>explicitly declared in logkit.xconf. Maybe LogKit shouldn't be so picky
> >>>>about that and just act as a configuration front-end to Hierarchy (i.e.
> >>>>remove the m_loggers HashMap).
> >>>>
> >>>This can be fixed (I wrote it) but IIRC it's a debugging (or should
> >>>be) message and thus might be helpfull in that aspect.
> >>>
> >>I would be thankful if you fix it, because it produces a _warning_
> >>message each time a component asks for a logger that's not in the
> >>configuration-defined categories.
> >>
> >
> > Ok, I've reduced from WARN to DEBUG and will commit it soon into C2.
> >
> > Giacomo
> >
>
> Thanks, Giacomo, but I was saying that IMHO, LogKitManager shouldn't
> even care about that. It's role is to configure a Hierarchy (most often
> its top-level categories) and give access to this hierarchy to get
> loggers, but the definition of categories is the responsibility of
> xconf/sitemap writers.
Sure, that's what that debugging messages is helping in finding (maybe
unintentionally) misspelled logging categories attached to components
with the logger attribute which are not define in the logkit.xconf.
> With the hierarchized categories we will now have (many +1 for this
> vote), LogKitManager will issue a great number of debug messages which
> don't give any usefull information.
Give me some example of "not usefull messages" which you think should be
removed. There a only 5 or 6 places where logging messages are issued so
IMO there aren't "a great number of debug messages"
Giacomo
>
> What do you think ?
>
> Sylvain.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re: Over-Logging)
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@anyware-tech.com>.
giacomo wrote:
<snip/>
>>>>The only drawback is that LogKit complains about categories not
>>>>explicitly declared in logkit.xconf. Maybe LogKit shouldn't be so picky
>>>>about that and just act as a configuration front-end to Hierarchy (i.e.
>>>>remove the m_loggers HashMap).
>>>>
>>>This can be fixed (I wrote it) but IIRC it's a debugging (or should
>>>be) message and thus might be helpfull in that aspect.
>>>
>>I would be thankful if you fix it, because it produces a _warning_
>>message each time a component asks for a logger that's not in the
>>configuration-defined categories.
>>
>
> Ok, I've reduced from WARN to DEBUG and will commit it soon into C2.
>
> Giacomo
>
Thanks, Giacomo, but I was saying that IMHO, LogKitManager shouldn't
even care about that. It's role is to configure a Hierarchy (most often
its top-level categories) and give access to this hierarchy to get
loggers, but the definition of categories is the responsibility of
xconf/sitemap writers.
With the hierarchized categories we will now have (many +1 for this
vote), LogKitManager will issue a great number of debug messages which
don't give any usefull information.
What do you think ?
Sylvain.
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Re: [vote] Finer-grained logging categories (was: Re: Over-Logging)
Posted by giacomo <gi...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
>
> giacomo a écrit :
> >
> > On Fri, 28 Dec 2001, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Torsten Curdt a écrit :
> > > >
> > > > > Now that I am back working with Cocoon, I have recently come to the conclusion that DEBUG
> > > > > simply outputs too much information. For one (1) request, Cocoon outputs 23 pages of
> > > > > log messages equivalent to 57k on the drive.
> > > > >
> > > > > My friends, this is too much. Logging should have a purpose, and not simply spout information
> > > > > for information's sake. I am trying to track down what is going on in the XSP engine,
> > > > > and I have to sift through 57k of messages.
> > > >
> > > > I like to second that
> > > >
> > > > > Principal of Diminishing Returns
> > > > > --------------------------------
> > > > > It is important to understand the principal of diminishing returns. Basically, it boils
> > > > > down to the concept that 90% correctness only takes 10% of the effort. It is that last
> > > > > 10% of correctness that takes up the remaining 90% of the effort. Our logging has reached
> > > > > critical mass. By logging anything and everything, we have an unusable mess.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not sure what needs to be done. Some categories need to be logged, while others
> > > > > do not. It all depends on what you are tracking down. We need to have more folks
> > > > > understand the LogKit configuration file, so that we can have a much finer grained
> > > > > control. Since it is a major point of Cocoon's configuration Cocoon needs to document
> > > > > it in the xdocs. The inline comments are not very clean, perhaps we need separators
> > > > > that demarcate the beginning and ends of the comments.
> > >
> > > What do you mean by "separators that demarcate..." ? A special formatter
> > > that adds linefeeds in the log file ?
> > >
> > > We may also remove some debug messages : many of them were used to debug
> > > components during their writing, and they aren't useful anymore now that
> > > they are stable.
> > >
> > > > So you like to get rid of this mess by configuring logkit?
> > > >
> > > > Actually I'm wondering if we have enough categories
> > > > to really get back to a fine grained control this way.
> > >
> > > We can add more categories : in my sitemaps, each component has a
> > > different category (using the "logger" attribute) :
> > >
> > > sitemap.generator.file
> > > sitemap.generator.directory
> > > sitemap.generator.serverpages
> > > sitemap.transformer.xslt
> > > sitemap.transformer.log
> > > sitemap.serializer.xml
> > > sitemap.serializer.html
> > > sitemap.matcher.wildcard
> > > ...
> >
> > This is what it was originally proposed to be used for. I wasn't willing
> > to go this far for the version we distribute with the CVS and releases
> > but we can vote to have this in CVS.
> >
> > > This leads to a fine-grained hierarchical classification of categories
> > > which allows to easily track messages in a particular area. This is also
> > > applicable to components in cocoon.xconf.
>
> OK. TEAM, your votes about adding fine-grained categories in
> sitemap.xmap and cocoon.xconf as described above ?
>
> +1 from me.
+1
> >
> > Do you log those messages into one file or different file (prob. one
> > per category?)
>
> I use two targets : one file for all messages, and a target I've written
> for a commercial swing GUI (see
> http://www.servidium.com/site/logfactor5/index.html) which has a nice
> handling of log hierarchies.
>
> Fine-grained categories allows to quickly find messages output by a
> particular component and having a single file allows to easily consult
> other related logs (e.g. all log messages for a given request).
No flooding of many different files for each category seems ok for me.
> > > If you like this approach, I can add it in the CVS.
> >
> > I'm not sure about it so +0.
> >
> > > The only drawback is that LogKit complains about categories not
> > > explicitly declared in logkit.xconf. Maybe LogKit shouldn't be so picky
> > > about that and just act as a configuration front-end to Hierarchy (i.e.
> > > remove the m_loggers HashMap).
> >
> > This can be fixed (I wrote it) but IIRC it's a debugging (or should
> > be) message and thus might be helpfull in that aspect.
>
> I would be thankful if you fix it, because it produces a _warning_
> message each time a component asks for a logger that's not in the
> configuration-defined categories.
Ok, I've reduced from WARN to DEBUG and will commit it soon into C2.
Giacomo
>
> > Giacomo
> >
> > >
> > > Thoughts ?
> > >
> > > Sylvain.
> > >
> > > > --
> > > > Torsten
> > > >
> > >
>
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