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Posted to dev@geode.apache.org by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> on 2015/11/04 20:13:54 UTC
Graduation concerns
To echo Caleb's post to the HAWQ ML:
In case you haven't been watching the Apache general list there is an
interesting thread on the Apache Sentry project and their graduation from
incubator.
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201511.mbox/browser
Lots of discussion on what is required from a community growth perspective
for an incubator. Good lessons to think about as we are trying to build
our own community around Geode and MADlib.
You will also see me heavily advocating Apache Maturity model on
that thread. This is something I'd really like to institute in all of
the projects
I happen to mentor to a point of having a rolling document inside of a source
tree a'la Groovy:
https://github.com/apache/incubator-groovy/blob/master/MATURITY.adoc
Thanks,
Roman.
Re: Graduation concerns
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:26 PM, Niall Pemberton
<ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:13 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> To echo Caleb's post to the HAWQ ML:
>>
>> In case you haven't been watching the Apache general list there is an
>> interesting thread on the Apache Sentry project and their graduation from
>> incubator.
>>
>>
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201511.mbox/browser
>>
>> Lots of discussion on what is required from a community growth perspective
>> for an incubator. Good lessons to think about as we are trying to build
>> our own community around Geode and MADlib.
>>
>
> The two biggest challenges IMO facing Geode:
> 1. Transitioning from an internal closed development model to a public
> open one
> 2. Bringing in new project members from outside Pivotal to create a
> diverse, vibrant community
>
> The success or failure of the first impacts the second. The measure of the
> first is how much discussion and decision making regarding Geode is taking
> place within Pivotal compared to whats here on the mailing list or JIRA.
> When the answer is pretty much everything is in the public domain, then
> you'll have it cracked.
Couldn't agree more! As an insider, I must say that I'm very pleased with
how much progress the internal Pivotal team has made since April in
terms of trying to push discussions and decision making into the open.
But that, of course, is a view of somebody who have seen the internal
process transform. On the outside there's still tons for us to improve.
One particular area where I think we need to focus on is bootstrapping
a robust user community of Apache Geode. This is one of the most
effective way to keep the project honest about how transparent and fair
its governance model is. Right now we don't really have anything for
the user community to rally around and that's why one of my top priorities
is to get first release of Geode (alpha) out.
Thanks,
Roman.
Re: Graduation concerns
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:13 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> To echo Caleb's post to the HAWQ ML:
>
> In case you haven't been watching the Apache general list there is an
> interesting thread on the Apache Sentry project and their graduation from
> incubator.
>
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201511.mbox/browser
>
> Lots of discussion on what is required from a community growth perspective
> for an incubator. Good lessons to think about as we are trying to build
> our own community around Geode and MADlib.
>
The two biggest challenges IMO facing Geode:
1. Transitioning from an internal closed development model to a public
open one
2. Bringing in new project members from outside Pivotal to create a
diverse, vibrant community
The success or failure of the first impacts the second. The measure of the
first is how much discussion and decision making regarding Geode is taking
place within Pivotal compared to whats here on the mailing list or JIRA.
When the answer is pretty much everything is in the public domain, then
you'll have it cracked.
Niall
> You will also see me heavily advocating Apache Maturity model on
> that thread. This is something I'd really like to institute in all of
> the projects
> I happen to mentor to a point of having a rolling document inside of a
> source
> tree a'la Groovy:
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-groovy/blob/master/MATURITY.adoc
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
Re: Graduation concerns
Posted by William Markito <wm...@pivotal.io>.
Thanks Ted, Niall, Caleb and Roman for helping on this thread...
Sharing a bit of Geode, we do have a Maturity Level wiki page [1] since
June, which reflects the current status of the project as well as a
Community Development [2] page also frequently updated with all
developments and efforts, publicly tracked.
With the clubhouse meetings (online video conferences) and mailing list
discussions, there are at least 3-4 different companies participating in
the community, maybe not all of them contributing code, but that's also
growing... All of these video conferences are being recorded and
published on the project YouTube channel [3]
The really missing part, which is also reflected in the current project
maturity are releases, which we truly hope to get done ASAP.
Other than that, commenting a bit on what Niall wisely said, we have pretty
much stopped used internal lists to discuss our development process and
issues and a reflect of that is the number of JIRA's currently being worked
(open/closed) and discussed on dev@geode. Hopefully with a release and
more people then using the project artifacts, more users and community will
come and make it even more vibrant.
~/William
[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/GEODE/Maturity+Level
[2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/GEODE/Community+development
[3] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaY2q0UlWjAgEGL7uhCLs6A
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Caleb Welton <cw...@pivotal.io> wrote:
> Thanks Ted.
>
> Echoing some of the followup discussion we had over on the HAWQ mailing
> list Roman suggested doing something similar to what Groovy did, i.e.
> incorporate a maturity model document into our code and review it around
> how we can continue to make improvements and move the project towards
> graduation. Here's the example from Groovy:
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-groovy/blob/master/MATURITY.adoc.
>
> Examples of project maturity include the points Ted makes, e.g.:
> "All "important" discussions happen asynchronously in written form on
> the project’s main communications channel. Offline, face-to-face or private
> discussions that affect the project are also documented on that channel."
>
> The main thing from my perspective is that we are making a conscious
> decision to embrace the Apache way, that we are honest with our assessment
> of where we are at, and actively work on moving in the right direction. It
> isn't necessarily easy, but the value of the mechanism is to help foster an
> larger inclusive community.
>
> Regards,
> Caleb
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:16 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Also note that projects that evolve out of commercial projects often have
> a
> > very hard time moving design decisions to a mailing. It is much more
> > natural to continue using well known communication paths.
> >
> > The point, however, of moving to Apache is, well, moving to Apache. That
> > involves more than just moving the semi-colons into an Apache git
> instance.
> > It also means moving many customs and traditions. This can be hard.
> >
> > This can be even harder because it is even harder to see the need or even
> > the lack because it really hasn't been any other way for most of the
> > participants.
> >
> > Reading the threads that Roman cites can be very helpful if you try to
> > think about why each participant says what they say. What motive do they
> > have in their head that makes what they say make sense?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > > To echo Caleb's post to the HAWQ ML:
> > >
> > > In case you haven't been watching the Apache general list there is an
> > > interesting thread on the Apache Sentry project and their graduation
> from
> > > incubator.
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201511.mbox/browser
> > >
> > > Lots of discussion on what is required from a community growth
> perspective
> > > for an incubator. Good lessons to think about as we are trying to
> build
> > > our own community around Geode and MADlib.
> > >
> > > You will also see me heavily advocating Apache Maturity model on
> > > that thread. This is something I'd really like to institute in all of
> > > the projects
> > > I happen to mentor to a point of having a rolling document inside of a
> > > source
> > > tree a'la Groovy:
> > >
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-groovy/blob/master/MATURITY.adoc
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Roman.
> > >
>
--
William Markito Oliveira
-- For questions about Apache Geode, please write to
*dev@geode.incubator.apache.org
<de...@geode.incubator.apache.org>*
Re: Graduation concerns
Posted by William Markito <wm...@pivotal.io>.
Thanks Ted, Niall, Caleb and Roman for helping on this thread...
Sharing a bit of Geode, we do have a Maturity Level wiki page [1] since
June, which reflects the current status of the project as well as a
Community Development [2] page also frequently updated with all
developments and efforts, publicly tracked.
With the clubhouse meetings (online video conferences) and mailing list
discussions, there are at least 3-4 different companies participating in
the community, maybe not all of them contributing code, but that's also
growing... All of these video conferences are being recorded and
published on the project YouTube channel [3]
The really missing part, which is also reflected in the current project
maturity are releases, which we truly hope to get done ASAP.
Other than that, commenting a bit on what Niall wisely said, we have pretty
much stopped used internal lists to discuss our development process and
issues and a reflect of that is the number of JIRA's currently being worked
(open/closed) and discussed on dev@geode. Hopefully with a release and
more people then using the project artifacts, more users and community will
come and make it even more vibrant.
~/William
[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/GEODE/Maturity+Level
[2] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/GEODE/Community+development
[3] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaY2q0UlWjAgEGL7uhCLs6A
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Caleb Welton <cw...@pivotal.io> wrote:
> Thanks Ted.
>
> Echoing some of the followup discussion we had over on the HAWQ mailing
> list Roman suggested doing something similar to what Groovy did, i.e.
> incorporate a maturity model document into our code and review it around
> how we can continue to make improvements and move the project towards
> graduation. Here's the example from Groovy:
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-groovy/blob/master/MATURITY.adoc.
>
> Examples of project maturity include the points Ted makes, e.g.:
> "All "important" discussions happen asynchronously in written form on
> the project’s main communications channel. Offline, face-to-face or private
> discussions that affect the project are also documented on that channel."
>
> The main thing from my perspective is that we are making a conscious
> decision to embrace the Apache way, that we are honest with our assessment
> of where we are at, and actively work on moving in the right direction. It
> isn't necessarily easy, but the value of the mechanism is to help foster an
> larger inclusive community.
>
> Regards,
> Caleb
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:16 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Also note that projects that evolve out of commercial projects often have
> a
> > very hard time moving design decisions to a mailing. It is much more
> > natural to continue using well known communication paths.
> >
> > The point, however, of moving to Apache is, well, moving to Apache. That
> > involves more than just moving the semi-colons into an Apache git
> instance.
> > It also means moving many customs and traditions. This can be hard.
> >
> > This can be even harder because it is even harder to see the need or even
> > the lack because it really hasn't been any other way for most of the
> > participants.
> >
> > Reading the threads that Roman cites can be very helpful if you try to
> > think about why each participant says what they say. What motive do they
> > have in their head that makes what they say make sense?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > > To echo Caleb's post to the HAWQ ML:
> > >
> > > In case you haven't been watching the Apache general list there is an
> > > interesting thread on the Apache Sentry project and their graduation
> from
> > > incubator.
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201511.mbox/browser
> > >
> > > Lots of discussion on what is required from a community growth
> perspective
> > > for an incubator. Good lessons to think about as we are trying to
> build
> > > our own community around Geode and MADlib.
> > >
> > > You will also see me heavily advocating Apache Maturity model on
> > > that thread. This is something I'd really like to institute in all of
> > > the projects
> > > I happen to mentor to a point of having a rolling document inside of a
> > > source
> > > tree a'la Groovy:
> > >
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-groovy/blob/master/MATURITY.adoc
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Roman.
> > >
>
--
William Markito Oliveira
-- For questions about Apache Geode, please write to
*dev@geode.incubator.apache.org
<de...@geode.incubator.apache.org>*
Re: Graduation concerns
Posted by Caleb Welton <cw...@pivotal.io>.
Thanks Ted.
Echoing some of the followup discussion we had over on the HAWQ mailing
list Roman suggested doing something similar to what Groovy did, i.e.
incorporate a maturity model document into our code and review it around
how we can continue to make improvements and move the project towards
graduation. Here's the example from Groovy:
https://github.com/apache/incubator-groovy/blob/master/MATURITY.adoc.
Examples of project maturity include the points Ted makes, e.g.:
"All "important" discussions happen asynchronously in written form on
the project’s main communications channel. Offline, face-to-face or private
discussions that affect the project are also documented on that channel."
The main thing from my perspective is that we are making a conscious
decision to embrace the Apache way, that we are honest with our assessment
of where we are at, and actively work on moving in the right direction. It
isn't necessarily easy, but the value of the mechanism is to help foster an
larger inclusive community.
Regards,
Caleb
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:16 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Also note that projects that evolve out of commercial projects often have
a
> very hard time moving design decisions to a mailing. It is much more
> natural to continue using well known communication paths.
>
> The point, however, of moving to Apache is, well, moving to Apache. That
> involves more than just moving the semi-colons into an Apache git
instance.
> It also means moving many customs and traditions. This can be hard.
>
> This can be even harder because it is even harder to see the need or even
> the lack because it really hasn't been any other way for most of the
> participants.
>
> Reading the threads that Roman cites can be very helpful if you try to
> think about why each participant says what they say. What motive do they
> have in their head that makes what they say make sense?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > To echo Caleb's post to the HAWQ ML:
> >
> > In case you haven't been watching the Apache general list there is an
> > interesting thread on the Apache Sentry project and their graduation
from
> > incubator.
> >
> >
> >
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201511.mbox/browser
> >
> > Lots of discussion on what is required from a community growth
perspective
> > for an incubator. Good lessons to think about as we are trying to build
> > our own community around Geode and MADlib.
> >
> > You will also see me heavily advocating Apache Maturity model on
> > that thread. This is something I'd really like to institute in all of
> > the projects
> > I happen to mentor to a point of having a rolling document inside of a
> > source
> > tree a'la Groovy:
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-groovy/blob/master/MATURITY.adoc
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roman.
> >
Re: Graduation concerns
Posted by Caleb Welton <cw...@pivotal.io>.
Thanks Ted.
Echoing some of the followup discussion we had over on the HAWQ mailing
list Roman suggested doing something similar to what Groovy did, i.e.
incorporate a maturity model document into our code and review it around
how we can continue to make improvements and move the project towards
graduation. Here's the example from Groovy:
https://github.com/apache/incubator-groovy/blob/master/MATURITY.adoc.
Examples of project maturity include the points Ted makes, e.g.:
"All "important" discussions happen asynchronously in written form on
the project’s main communications channel. Offline, face-to-face or private
discussions that affect the project are also documented on that channel."
The main thing from my perspective is that we are making a conscious
decision to embrace the Apache way, that we are honest with our assessment
of where we are at, and actively work on moving in the right direction. It
isn't necessarily easy, but the value of the mechanism is to help foster an
larger inclusive community.
Regards,
Caleb
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:16 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Also note that projects that evolve out of commercial projects often have
a
> very hard time moving design decisions to a mailing. It is much more
> natural to continue using well known communication paths.
>
> The point, however, of moving to Apache is, well, moving to Apache. That
> involves more than just moving the semi-colons into an Apache git
instance.
> It also means moving many customs and traditions. This can be hard.
>
> This can be even harder because it is even harder to see the need or even
> the lack because it really hasn't been any other way for most of the
> participants.
>
> Reading the threads that Roman cites can be very helpful if you try to
> think about why each participant says what they say. What motive do they
> have in their head that makes what they say make sense?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > To echo Caleb's post to the HAWQ ML:
> >
> > In case you haven't been watching the Apache general list there is an
> > interesting thread on the Apache Sentry project and their graduation
from
> > incubator.
> >
> >
> >
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201511.mbox/browser
> >
> > Lots of discussion on what is required from a community growth
perspective
> > for an incubator. Good lessons to think about as we are trying to build
> > our own community around Geode and MADlib.
> >
> > You will also see me heavily advocating Apache Maturity model on
> > that thread. This is something I'd really like to institute in all of
> > the projects
> > I happen to mentor to a point of having a rolling document inside of a
> > source
> > tree a'la Groovy:
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-groovy/blob/master/MATURITY.adoc
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roman.
> >
Re: Graduation concerns
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
Also note that projects that evolve out of commercial projects often have a
very hard time moving design decisions to a mailing. It is much more
natural to continue using well known communication paths.
The point, however, of moving to Apache is, well, moving to Apache. That
involves more than just moving the semi-colons into an Apache git instance.
It also means moving many customs and traditions. This can be hard.
This can be even harder because it is even harder to see the need or even
the lack because it really hasn't been any other way for most of the
participants.
Reading the threads that Roman cites can be very helpful if you try to
think about why each participant says what they say. What motive do they
have in their head that makes what they say make sense?
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> To echo Caleb's post to the HAWQ ML:
>
> In case you haven't been watching the Apache general list there is an
> interesting thread on the Apache Sentry project and their graduation from
> incubator.
>
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201511.mbox/browser
>
> Lots of discussion on what is required from a community growth perspective
> for an incubator. Good lessons to think about as we are trying to build
> our own community around Geode and MADlib.
>
> You will also see me heavily advocating Apache Maturity model on
> that thread. This is something I'd really like to institute in all of
> the projects
> I happen to mentor to a point of having a rolling document inside of a
> source
> tree a'la Groovy:
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-groovy/blob/master/MATURITY.adoc
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
Re: Graduation concerns
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
Also note that projects that evolve out of commercial projects often have a
very hard time moving design decisions to a mailing. It is much more
natural to continue using well known communication paths.
The point, however, of moving to Apache is, well, moving to Apache. That
involves more than just moving the semi-colons into an Apache git instance.
It also means moving many customs and traditions. This can be hard.
This can be even harder because it is even harder to see the need or even
the lack because it really hasn't been any other way for most of the
participants.
Reading the threads that Roman cites can be very helpful if you try to
think about why each participant says what they say. What motive do they
have in their head that makes what they say make sense?
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> To echo Caleb's post to the HAWQ ML:
>
> In case you haven't been watching the Apache general list there is an
> interesting thread on the Apache Sentry project and their graduation from
> incubator.
>
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201511.mbox/browser
>
> Lots of discussion on what is required from a community growth perspective
> for an incubator. Good lessons to think about as we are trying to build
> our own community around Geode and MADlib.
>
> You will also see me heavily advocating Apache Maturity model on
> that thread. This is something I'd really like to institute in all of
> the projects
> I happen to mentor to a point of having a rolling document inside of a
> source
> tree a'la Groovy:
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-groovy/blob/master/MATURITY.adoc
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>