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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by sa...@women-at-work.org on 2005/01/28 10:58:54 UTC
My personal Tapestry wish-list
My personal Tapestry wish-list would be:
- a tapestry javascript component for static trees for navigation menus
(containing a link and optional image at the end)
- tables: being able to specify external links for the pages, e.g. instead
of having messy urls.
- easy-to-use dependent comboboxes (optionally with javascript
notifications)
- themeing support, e.g. for specifying the .html templates name with a
parameter
- support of secure sessions using changing session ids
- progress bars for file upload ;-)
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Re: My personal Tapestry wish-list
Posted by Jamie Orchard-Hays <ja...@dang.com>.
The biggest problems I've found are actually with IE. I can get something
working in Firefox in 10 minutes and then spend two hours making it work
with IE. This has happened to me two or three times.
There are useful links that have helped me on this page. Make sure you check
out The Puppy Site:
http://www.neonguild.org/tools.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Konstantin Iignatyev" <kg...@yahoo.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: My personal Tapestry wish-list
> Of course I use CSS (could not claim that I am a pro), but even simple
> thing like links underscoring sometimes works differently in IE and
> Firefox/Mozilla. zengarden is supposed to be a showcase but it fails
> because of reasons I have mentioned.
>
> No, I do not use CSS for layout, not I plan to in the nearest future.
>
> Spring guys tried http://www.springframework.org/ , but try scaling it in
> Mozilla - it gets ugly duplicates, does not scale in IE at all, but scales
> perfectly in Opera - that is probably what 'mere mortals' could achieve
> with CSS - does not help building trust in CSS either.
>
> Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
>
>> Do you use any css? I can't imagine going back to a world without it. I
>> spent a lot of time really learning it this Winter and it has paid off
>> immensely in our latest Darden project.
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Konstantin Iignatyev"
>> <kg...@yahoo.com>
>> To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 10:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: My personal Tapestry wish-list
>>
>>
>>> From the garden: Full browser compliance is still sometimes a pipe
>>> dream, and we do not expect you to come up with pixel-perfect code
>>> across every platform. .....
>>>
>>> That is the key: I guess people( and I am among them) do not trust CSS.
>>>
>>> fixed width design is unusable and harmful to eyes on high resolution
>>> monitors ( 1680x1050 on my laptop )
>>> Even those handpicked themes on the site behave inappropriately when
>>> scaled (CTRL+ in Mozilla) ...
>>>
>>> That does not help building trust.
>>>
>>> So, I hope Tapestry 3.1 will implement that great proposal from wiki -
>>> have "skin" attribute and Tapestry search will be
>>> Name[_skin][_locale].ext
>>>
>>> Howard Lewis Ship wrote:
>>>
>>>> You might think that, but you haven't been to the Zen Garden:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.csszengarden.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:37:35 +0100 (MET),
>>>> sarah.simbad@women-at-work.org <sa...@women-at-work.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If you have the navigation bar on the left, or in the middle or at the
>>>>> right
>>>>> hand side you need completely different themes that can not be
>>>>> achieved through css. You also might have a flash theme or a wap
>>>>> theme...or
>>>>> optimized for web tv..or a theme for blind people.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Konstantin Ignatyev
>>>
>>> http://www.kgionline.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen
>>> million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
>>> tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate
>>> between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of
>>> topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their
>>> population by 263.000
>>>
>>> Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement
>>> Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New
>>> York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
>>>
>>>
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>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Konstantin Ignatyev
>
> http://www.kgionline.com
>
>
>
>
>
> PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen
> million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
> tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between
> forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil,
> add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population
> by 263.000
>
> Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement Needs
> a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New York:
> State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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Re: CSS layouts
Posted by Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com>.
>A previous email from someone titled "My personal Tapestry wish-list" met
>with the same fate. People started arguing about whether or not the
>requester's wish-list was legitimate or not. Why do we treat users this way?
>
>
>
Because verification of wish legitimacy never harms. What if user will
want to kill elderly ladies with using Tapestry?
On the serious note: user(my) wish might be unreasonable or caused by
problem/framework misunderstanding etc. It is important to verify if a
request is reasonable.
On the layout topic: it looks like wiki has tracks of attacking this
problem and it probably will be addressed in 3.1
--
Thanks,
Konstantin Ignatyev
http://www.kgionline.com
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263.000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools.
New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
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RE: CSS layouts
Posted by Lindsay Steele <ls...@iinet.net.au>.
Actually the first thing that was said before anything else, was to add
the requests to the Wiki page.
The rest was legitimate discussion about features that might currently
furfill the need of the person at this current time and whether some of
those features put forward are really needed in the future.
I learned a lot out of this discussion .. Thanks for all the comments
and links.
-----Original Message-----
From: kranga [mailto:kranga@k2d2.org]
Sent: Tuesday, 1 February 2005 10:39 AM
To: Tapestry users
Subject: Re: CSS layouts
I don't think this discussion is going in the correct direction.
1) A need has been identified - the ability for Tapestry to support css
skins and extra support for cross-browser concerns
2) Either build a component to address it or don't. There is no point
discussing the merits of these. I'd rather discuss how to build a
component and what it will take to address css layout in Tapestry. If
css layouts are very difficult to do and tapestry and make it happen,
the Tapestry scores a point.
A previous email from someone titled "My personal Tapestry wish-list"
met with the same fate. People started arguing about whether or not the
requester's wish-list was legitimate or not. Why do we treat users this
way? Add it to the wiki page and if someone comes up with a component, a
need is satisfied (and surely people will benefit from it).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Luc Peerdeman" <lj...@xs4all.nl>
To: <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: CSS layouts
> Konstantin Iignatyev wrote:
>
> > Because I want my web-application working consistently in IE,
> > Mozilla and Opera I stick with Tables based layout and basic CSS.
> >
> > Do you have any links to sites, which are built with CSS and do
> > provide liquid and scalable layout that works consistently in IE,
> > Mozilla and Opera?
> >
> > If I could at least see that it is possible I would consider CSS for
> > doing layouts.
>
> Here is a list of sites did not use tables but strictly CSS for
> styling:
>
> http://meryl.net/css/index.php
>
> This might be a source to find the kind of sites you are looking for.
>
> In general I think CSS is well suited to make 'liquid and scalable'
> layouts, of course to make them behave consistently between browsers
> you will have to understand the details of the box model and how to
> use the 'box model hack' to solve the problem of IE doing things
> differently here.
>
> http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html
>
> Cheers, Luc.
>
>
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Re: CSS layouts
Posted by kranga <kr...@k2d2.org>.
I don't think this discussion is going in the correct direction.
1) A need has been identified - the ability for Tapestry to support css
skins and extra support for cross-browser concerns
2) Either build a component to address it or don't. There is no point
discussing the merits of these. I'd rather discuss how to build a component
and what it will take to address css layout in Tapestry. If css layouts are
very difficult to do and tapestry and make it happen, the Tapestry scores a
point.
A previous email from someone titled "My personal Tapestry wish-list" met
with the same fate. People started arguing about whether or not the
requester's wish-list was legitimate or not. Why do we treat users this way?
Add it to the wiki page and if someone comes up with a component, a need is
satisfied (and surely people will benefit from it).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Luc Peerdeman" <lj...@xs4all.nl>
To: <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: CSS layouts
> Konstantin Iignatyev wrote:
>
> > Because I want my web-application working consistently in IE, Mozilla
> > and Opera I stick with Tables based layout and basic CSS.
> >
> > Do you have any links to sites, which are built with CSS and do provide
> > liquid and scalable layout that works consistently in IE, Mozilla and
> > Opera?
> >
> > If I could at least see that it is possible I would consider CSS for
> > doing layouts…
>
> Here is a list of sites did not use tables but strictly CSS for styling:
>
> http://meryl.net/css/index.php
>
> This might be a source to find the kind of sites you are looking for.
>
> In general I think CSS is well suited to make 'liquid and scalable'
> layouts, of course to make them behave consistently between browsers you
> will have to understand the details of the box model and how to use the
> 'box model hack' to solve the problem of IE doing things differently here.
>
> http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html
>
> Cheers, Luc.
>
>
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Re: CSS layouts
Posted by Luc Peerdeman <lj...@xs4all.nl>.
Konstantin Iignatyev wrote:
> Because I want my web-application working consistently in IE, Mozilla
> and Opera I stick with Tables based layout and basic CSS.
>
> Do you have any links to sites, which are built with CSS and do provide
> liquid and scalable layout that works consistently in IE, Mozilla and
> Opera?
>
> If I could at least see that it is possible I would consider CSS for
> doing layouts…
Here is a list of sites did not use tables but strictly CSS for styling:
http://meryl.net/css/index.php
This might be a source to find the kind of sites you are looking for.
In general I think CSS is well suited to make 'liquid and scalable'
layouts, of course to make them behave consistently between browsers you
will have to understand the details of the box model and how to use the
'box model hack' to solve the problem of IE doing things differently here.
http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html
Cheers, Luc.
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Re: CSS layouts
Posted by Jamie Orchard-Hays <ja...@dang.com>.
I sent these links earlier, but there seems to have been some mail
delivery problems from work today. So, apologies if it shows up again.
This link has a very thickly commented style sheet for the purposes of
instruction. The layout is liquid and does some pretty cool stuff--for
example, using a background image technique that scales the image with
the browser.
http://www.neonguild.org/cssdemo/
Jamie
On Jan 31, 2005, at 1:40 PM, Konstantin Iignatyev wrote:
> >>It is. I went there and was horrified.
>
> I did not say I like his site :) only book and advices :)
>
> >Liquid and fixed layouts both have their place.
>
> Sure, but because I do want/need liquid layout it seems like CSS
> support for it is not quite here ( maybe it is in CSS, but browsers do
> not implement it correctly ).
> Any proofs of the contrary? This is rare occasion when I would like to
> be wrong.
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Konstantin Ignatyev
>
> http://www.kgionline.com
>
>
>
>
>
> PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen
> million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
> tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate
> between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons
> of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase
> their population by 263.000
>
> Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement
> Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New
> York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
>
>
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Re: CSS layouts
Posted by Jamie Orchard-Hays <ja...@dang.com>.
This demo does some cool liquid layout. Debra put a lot of comments in the
style sheet to help people learning it.
http://www.neonguild.org/cssdemo/
Jamie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Konstantin Iignatyev" <kg...@yahoo.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: CSS layouts
> >>It is. I went there and was horrified.
>
> I did not say I like his site :) only book and advices :)
>
> >Liquid and fixed layouts both have their place.
>
> Sure, but because I do want/need liquid layout it seems like CSS support
> for it is not quite here ( maybe it is in CSS, but browsers do not
> implement it correctly ).
> Any proofs of the contrary? This is rare occasion when I would like to be
> wrong.
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Konstantin Ignatyev
>
> http://www.kgionline.com
>
>
>
>
>
> PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen
> million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
> tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between
> forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil,
> add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population
> by 263.000
>
> Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement Needs
> a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New York:
> State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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Re: CSS layouts
Posted by Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com>.
>>It is. I went there and was horrified.
I did not say I like his site :) only book and advices :)
>Liquid and fixed layouts both have their place.
Sure, but because I do want/need liquid layout it seems like CSS support
for it is not quite here ( maybe it is in CSS, but browsers do not
implement it correctly ).
Any proofs of the contrary? This is rare occasion when I would like to
be wrong.
--
Thanks,
Konstantin Ignatyev
http://www.kgionline.com
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263.000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools.
New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
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Re: CSS layouts
Posted by Jamie Orchard-Hays <ja...@dang.com>.
> And if I showed our designer Jakob useit.com site the first thing he'd
> say is that it's too ugly.
>
It is. I went there and was horrified.
Liquid and fixed layouts both have their place.
Jamie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darren foltinek" <da...@frontrange.ca>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: CSS layouts
> We had a lot of discussion with our graphic designer about "liquid" vs.
> "fixed width" layouts. Fixed-width was a compromise because of the
> extra difficulty (time) required to get a liquid layout looking good
> across all browsers...
>
> And if I showed our designer Jakob useit.com site the first thing he'd
> say is that it's too ugly.
>
> Everything is a compromise!
>
> -- Darren
>
>>> Sorry, forgot the link: http://www.canadianfocus.com/
>>>
>>> The app uses a "fixed width, page centered" layout, which is what our
>>> designed specified. He doesn't like liquid layouts.
>>>
>> Unfortunately way too many designers do not like liquid layouts
>> because they do not understand them and do not understand the media:
>> it is understandable because most of them are "PRINT" oriented, not
>> SCREEN oriented. They are forced to semi-admit it (printable version
>> is different) but still do not grasp it fully.
>>
>> I like advices from usability expert Jakob Nielsen:
>> http://www.useit.com/ and his book Homepage Usability: 50 Websites
>> Deconstructed
>> There is plenty of useful information but these pages provide good
>> starting points:
>> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20031110.html #2
>>
>> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html #5
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: CSS layouts
Posted by Darren foltinek <da...@frontrange.ca>.
We had a lot of discussion with our graphic designer about "liquid" vs.
"fixed width" layouts. Fixed-width was a compromise because of the
extra difficulty (time) required to get a liquid layout looking good
across all browsers...
And if I showed our designer Jakob useit.com site the first thing he'd
say is that it's too ugly.
Everything is a compromise!
-- Darren
>> Sorry, forgot the link: http://www.canadianfocus.com/
>>
>> The app uses a "fixed width, page centered" layout, which is what our
>> designed specified. He doesn't like liquid layouts.
>>
> Unfortunately way too many designers do not like liquid layouts
> because they do not understand them and do not understand the media:
> it is understandable because most of them are "PRINT" oriented, not
> SCREEN oriented. They are forced to semi-admit it (printable version
> is different) but still do not grasp it fully.
>
> I like advices from usability expert Jakob Nielsen:
> http://www.useit.com/ and his book Homepage Usability: 50 Websites
> Deconstructed
> There is plenty of useful information but these pages provide good
> starting points:
> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20031110.html #2
>
> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html #5
>
>
>
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Re: CSS layouts
Posted by Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com>.
Darren foltinek wrote:
> Sorry, forgot the link: http://www.canadianfocus.com/
>
> The app uses a "fixed width, page centered" layout, which is what our
> designed specified. He doesn't like liquid layouts.
>
Unfortunately way too many designers do not like liquid layouts because
they do not understand them and do not understand the media: it is
understandable because most of them are "PRINT" oriented, not SCREEN
oriented. They are forced to semi-admit it (printable version is
different) but still do not grasp it fully.
I like advices from usability expert Jakob Nielsen:
http://www.useit.com/ and his book Homepage Usability: 50 Websites
Deconstructed
There is plenty of useful information but these pages provide good
starting points:
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20031110.html #2
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html #5
--
Thanks,
Konstantin Ignatyev
http://www.kgionline.com
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263.000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools.
New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
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Re: CSS layouts
Posted by Darren foltinek <da...@frontrange.ca>.
Sorry, forgot the link: http://www.canadianfocus.com/
The app uses a "fixed width, page centered" layout, which is what our
designed specified. He doesn't like liquid layouts.
It works across different browsers, and will display a "Browser Not
Supported" page if you try a completely ancient browser.
The UI looks OK if you scale up/down, but it's NOT great, because of the
fixed width design. Again, our designer specified font sizes, so if
those change, well, there goes the layout!
-- Darren
> If you cannot provide link to the application please clarify the
> following:
> - does the application use liquid layout;
> - does the app work consistently in IE, Mozilla, Opera on Win and
> GNU-Linux;
> - does the UI remains balanced when scaled up (CTL+, or CTL+mouse
> scroll) in IE, Mozilla, Opera on Win and GNU-Linux;
>
>
> Darren foltinek wrote:
>
>> Just thought I'd throw some points into this debate. Just finished
>> development of a fairly good sized app. Half way through we made the
>> decision to go with CSS based layout, and only occasionally have
>> regrets. In general, I think it was a great decision.
>>
>> CSS Advantages
>> - HTML only contains page data - no mixing of layout with contents.
>> Very clean.
>> - No app redeploy needed to fix / tune minor layout issues.
>> - Browser hacks are limited to a SINGLE css file for EACH browser
>> that needs hacks to deal with bugs. (1)
>>
>> CSS Disadvantages
>> - Had to learn a new technology (takes time)
>> - Had to learn a new way of thinking about HTML and layout (takes time)
>> - Floats are buggy, and cause headaches (2)
>>
>> (1) We implemented browser detection by Tapestry, so that when an
>> incompatible browser was detected, Tapestry would append the
>> appropriate CSS "hack" file.
>>
>> (2) HTML tables can still be used, of course. If the page data will
>> be displayed as rows and columns FOR ALL TEMPLATES then it's fine to
>> use an HTML table.
>>
>> All in all, I think CSS based layout is great, and since Tapestry
>> didn't (and still doesn't) have a templating system, it was the way
>> to go. And now that the app is deployed, maintenance is SO easy
>> because the HTML never has to be changed to deal with layout issues,
>> unless the page content changes.
>>
>> -- Darren
>>
>>
>>> Here is why I think tapestry needs a more flexible templating system...
>>>
>>> I too support css and actually just spent an entire weak developing
>>> a very nice web application template using css/javascript. It
>>> support fancy tabbing, drag and drop reordering, font-size switching
>>> and more. However, I must say that it took a whole lot of extra time
>>> trying to get it to work in ie 6 and firefox not to mention what it
>>> would take to get it working in the rest of the browsers. Floating
>>> is miserably buggy, but without it its pretty much impossible to
>>> create elastic designs with multiple columns. The amount of css
>>> hacks I had to use to get everything to line up in both browsers is
>>> questionable as well. Not to mention that complicated css layouts
>>> can bring a browser to its knees while rendering them.
>>>
>>> It was great having the flexibility of css to easilly change images,
>>> create rollover effects, and nudge things around. However, when I am
>>> finally ready to deploy my app I will probably have to convert the
>>> design to tables so that I can be sure it looks good in all
>>> browsers. So I fully support css, but I don't think it has quite a
>>> ways to go before we can depend on it.
>>>
>>> Kris
>>>
>>> Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Many thanks for those links. But my line of reasoning is like this:
>>>
>>> - I agree wholeheartedly that CSS should be THE correct way for
>>> doing page formatting;
>>> - But I have never seen a site that is done with CSS layouts and do
>>> provides liquid and scalable layout, that works consistently in IE,
>>> Mozilla and Opera;
>>>
>>> Because I want my web-application working consistently in IE,
>>> Mozilla and Opera I stick with Tables based layout and basic CSS.
>>>
>>> Do you have any links to sites, which are built with CSS and do
>>> provide liquid and scalable layout that works consistently in IE,
>>> Mozilla and Opera?
>>>
>>> If I could at least see that it is possible I would consider CSS for
>>> doing layouts…
>>>
>>> Luc Peerdeman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
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Re: CSS layouts
Posted by Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com>.
If you cannot provide link to the application please clarify the following:
- does the application use liquid layout;
- does the app work consistently in IE, Mozilla, Opera on Win and GNU-Linux;
- does the UI remains balanced when scaled up (CTL+, or CTL+mouse
scroll) in IE, Mozilla, Opera on Win and GNU-Linux;
Darren foltinek wrote:
> Just thought I'd throw some points into this debate. Just finished
> development of a fairly good sized app. Half way through we made the
> decision to go with CSS based layout, and only occasionally have
> regrets. In general, I think it was a great decision.
>
> CSS Advantages
> - HTML only contains page data - no mixing of layout with contents.
> Very clean.
> - No app redeploy needed to fix / tune minor layout issues.
> - Browser hacks are limited to a SINGLE css file for EACH browser that
> needs hacks to deal with bugs. (1)
>
> CSS Disadvantages
> - Had to learn a new technology (takes time)
> - Had to learn a new way of thinking about HTML and layout (takes time)
> - Floats are buggy, and cause headaches (2)
>
> (1) We implemented browser detection by Tapestry, so that when an
> incompatible browser was detected, Tapestry would append the
> appropriate CSS "hack" file.
>
> (2) HTML tables can still be used, of course. If the page data will be
> displayed as rows and columns FOR ALL TEMPLATES then it's fine to use
> an HTML table.
>
> All in all, I think CSS based layout is great, and since Tapestry
> didn't (and still doesn't) have a templating system, it was the way to
> go. And now that the app is deployed, maintenance is SO easy because
> the HTML never has to be changed to deal with layout issues, unless
> the page content changes.
>
> -- Darren
>
>
>> Here is why I think tapestry needs a more flexible templating system...
>>
>> I too support css and actually just spent an entire weak developing a
>> very nice web application template using css/javascript. It support
>> fancy tabbing, drag and drop reordering, font-size switching and
>> more. However, I must say that it took a whole lot of extra time
>> trying to get it to work in ie 6 and firefox not to mention what it
>> would take to get it working in the rest of the browsers. Floating is
>> miserably buggy, but without it its pretty much impossible to create
>> elastic designs with multiple columns. The amount of css hacks I had
>> to use to get everything to line up in both browsers is questionable
>> as well. Not to mention that complicated css layouts can bring a
>> browser to its knees while rendering them.
>>
>> It was great having the flexibility of css to easilly change images,
>> create rollover effects, and nudge things around. However, when I am
>> finally ready to deploy my app I will probably have to convert the
>> design to tables so that I can be sure it looks good in all browsers.
>> So I fully support css, but I don't think it has quite a ways to go
>> before we can depend on it.
>>
>> Kris
>>
>> Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Many thanks for those links. But my line of reasoning is like this:
>>
>> - I agree wholeheartedly that CSS should be THE correct way for doing
>> page formatting;
>> - But I have never seen a site that is done with CSS layouts and do
>> provides liquid and scalable layout, that works consistently in IE,
>> Mozilla and Opera;
>>
>> Because I want my web-application working consistently in IE, Mozilla
>> and Opera I stick with Tables based layout and basic CSS.
>>
>> Do you have any links to sites, which are built with CSS and do
>> provide liquid and scalable layout that works consistently in IE,
>> Mozilla and Opera?
>>
>> If I could at least see that it is possible I would consider CSS for
>> doing layouts…
>>
>> Luc Peerdeman wrote:
>>
>>
>>
--
Thanks,
Konstantin Ignatyev
http://www.kgionline.com
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263.000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools.
New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
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Re: CSS layouts
Posted by Darren foltinek <da...@frontrange.ca>.
Just thought I'd throw some points into this debate. Just finished
development of a fairly good sized app. Half way through we made the
decision to go with CSS based layout, and only occasionally have
regrets. In general, I think it was a great decision.
CSS Advantages
- HTML only contains page data - no mixing of layout with contents. Very
clean.
- No app redeploy needed to fix / tune minor layout issues.
- Browser hacks are limited to a SINGLE css file for EACH browser that
needs hacks to deal with bugs. (1)
CSS Disadvantages
- Had to learn a new technology (takes time)
- Had to learn a new way of thinking about HTML and layout (takes time)
- Floats are buggy, and cause headaches (2)
(1) We implemented browser detection by Tapestry, so that when an
incompatible browser was detected, Tapestry would append the appropriate
CSS "hack" file.
(2) HTML tables can still be used, of course. If the page data will be
displayed as rows and columns FOR ALL TEMPLATES then it's fine to use an
HTML table.
All in all, I think CSS based layout is great, and since Tapestry didn't
(and still doesn't) have a templating system, it was the way to go. And
now that the app is deployed, maintenance is SO easy because the HTML
never has to be changed to deal with layout issues, unless the page
content changes.
-- Darren
>Here is why I think tapestry needs a more flexible templating system...
>
>I too support css and actually just spent an entire weak developing a very nice web application template using css/javascript. It support fancy tabbing, drag and drop reordering, font-size switching and more. However, I must say that it took a whole lot of extra time trying to get it to work in ie 6 and firefox not to mention what it would take to get it working in the rest of the browsers. Floating is miserably buggy, but without it its pretty much impossible to create elastic designs with multiple columns. The amount of css hacks I had to use to get everything to line up in both browsers is questionable as well. Not to mention that complicated css layouts can bring a browser to its knees while rendering them.
>
>It was great having the flexibility of css to easilly change images, create rollover effects, and nudge things around. However, when I am finally ready to deploy my app I will probably have to convert the design to tables so that I can be sure it looks good in all browsers.
>So I fully support css, but I don't think it has quite a ways to go before we can depend on it.
>
>Kris
>
>Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Many thanks for those links. But my line of reasoning is like this:
>
>- I agree wholeheartedly that CSS should be THE correct way for doing
>page formatting;
>- But I have never seen a site that is done with CSS layouts and do
>provides liquid and scalable layout, that works consistently in IE,
>Mozilla and Opera;
>
>Because I want my web-application working consistently in IE, Mozilla
>and Opera I stick with Tables based layout and basic CSS.
>
>Do you have any links to sites, which are built with CSS and do provide
>liquid and scalable layout that works consistently in IE, Mozilla and
>Opera?
>
>If I could at least see that it is possible I would consider CSS for
>doing layouts…
>
>Luc Peerdeman wrote:
>
>
>
>>Konstantin Iignatyev wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Of course I use CSS (could not claim that I am a pro), but even
>>>simple thing like links underscoring sometimes works differently in
>>>IE and Firefox/Mozilla. zengarden is supposed to be a showcase but it
>>>fails because of reasons I have mentioned.
>>>
>>>No, I do not use CSS for layout, not I plan to in the nearest future.
>>>
>>>
>>I can highly recommend the following books:
>>
>>- Designing with web standards, by Jeffrey Zeldman (very fun to read
>>and explains very well why CSS nowadays is _the_ way to handle layout)
>>
>>- Web standards solutions, by Dan Cederholm (many nice examples of how
>>to use web standards to make perfectly layed out pages)
>>
>>And of course the books by Eric Meyer on CSS (two books with project
>>examples and two reference books).
>>
>>After reading those I am sure you will have to adjust your ideas about
>>CSS. I have to admit that until half a year ago I also did not realize
>>the possibilities of CSS combined with other technologies (like DOM in
>>the browser etc). Also did not know that for almost all browser
>>incompatibilities good solutions have been thought out, so there is no
>>need anymore for different versions of pages for browser sniffing for
>>layout reasons.
>>
>>One of the advantages I have experienced on my current project is the
>>fact that pages get much more compact when styled in a smart way. I
>>got some HTML templates for from a design firm that were styled in the
>>old fashioned way: nested tables, inline images, etc etc. I was able
>>to move all the images and styling to the CSS, reducing the size of
>>the HTML that we now send to the client by (rough estimate) 80 %. And
>>the layout looks exactly like the customer asked, and can be changed
>>much more easily.
>>
>>For us as developers an added advantage is that Tapestry templates now
>>look much cleaner with lots of the layout things moved to CSS classes.
>>
>>Btw a lot of good information on these subjects can also be found on
>>the websites of said authors and on for example
>>http://www.alistapart.com/
>>
>>Cheers, Luc.
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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Re: CSS layouts
Posted by Todd O'Bryan <to...@mac.com>.
One solution people have suggested is developing a couple of
stylesheets that deal with the eccentricities of the browsers. Then you
serve the appropriate stylesheet based on the browser the client is
using. Assuming you have a @Border component or something similar,
that's one set of if/else's in one Java file, and you don't have to
bend over backwards to make sure your CSS works in every browser; you
just have to figure out what works in the ones you're targeting.
Later, as browsers get better at implementing the standard, you may be
able to consolidate your CSS instances.
Todd
On Jan 31, 2005, at 1:56 AM, Kris Rasmussen wrote:
> Here is why I think tapestry needs a more flexible templating system...
>
> I too support css and actually just spent an entire weak developing a
> very nice web application template using css/javascript. It support
> fancy tabbing, drag and drop reordering, font-size switching and more.
> However, I must say that it took a whole lot of extra time trying to
> get it to work in ie 6 and firefox not to mention what it would take
> to get it working in the rest of the browsers. Floating is miserably
> buggy, but without it its pretty much impossible to create elastic
> designs with multiple columns. The amount of css hacks I had to use to
> get everything to line up in both browsers is questionable as well.
> Not to mention that complicated css layouts can bring a browser to its
> knees while rendering them.
>
> It was great having the flexibility of css to easilly change images,
> create rollover effects, and nudge things around. However, when I am
> finally ready to deploy my app I will probably have to convert the
> design to tables so that I can be sure it looks good in all browsers.
> So I fully support css, but I don't think it has quite a ways to go
> before we can depend on it.
>
> Kris
>
> Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Many thanks for those links. But my line of reasoning is like this:
>
> - I agree wholeheartedly that CSS should be THE correct way for doing
> page formatting;
> - But I have never seen a site that is done with CSS layouts and do
> provides liquid and scalable layout, that works consistently in IE,
> Mozilla and Opera;
>
> Because I want my web-application working consistently in IE, Mozilla
> and Opera I stick with Tables based layout and basic CSS.
>
> Do you have any links to sites, which are built with CSS and do provide
> liquid and scalable layout that works consistently in IE, Mozilla and
> Opera?
>
> If I could at least see that it is possible I would consider CSS for
> doing layouts
>
>
> Luc Peerdeman wrote:
>
>> Konstantin Iignatyev wrote:
>>
>>> Of course I use CSS (could not claim that I am a pro), but even
>>> simple thing like links underscoring sometimes works differently in
>>> IE and Firefox/Mozilla. zengarden is supposed to be a showcase but it
>>> fails because of reasons I have mentioned.
>>>
>>> No, I do not use CSS for layout, not I plan to in the nearest future.
>>
>>
>> I can highly recommend the following books:
>>
>> - Designing with web standards, by Jeffrey Zeldman (very fun to read
>> and explains very well why CSS nowadays is _the_ way to handle layout)
>>
>> - Web standards solutions, by Dan Cederholm (many nice examples of how
>> to use web standards to make perfectly layed out pages)
>>
>> And of course the books by Eric Meyer on CSS (two books with project
>> examples and two reference books).
>>
>> After reading those I am sure you will have to adjust your ideas about
>> CSS. I have to admit that until half a year ago I also did not realize
>> the possibilities of CSS combined with other technologies (like DOM in
>> the browser etc). Also did not know that for almost all browser
>> incompatibilities good solutions have been thought out, so there is no
>> need anymore for different versions of pages for browser sniffing for
>> layout reasons.
>>
>> One of the advantages I have experienced on my current project is the
>> fact that pages get much more compact when styled in a smart way. I
>> got some HTML templates for from a design firm that were styled in the
>> old fashioned way: nested tables, inline images, etc etc. I was able
>> to move all the images and styling to the CSS, reducing the size of
>> the HTML that we now send to the client by (rough estimate) 80 %. And
>> the layout looks exactly like the customer asked, and can be changed
>> much more easily.
>>
>> For us as developers an added advantage is that Tapestry templates now
>> look much cleaner with lots of the layout things moved to CSS classes.
>>
>> Btw a lot of good information on these subjects can also be found on
>> the websites of said authors and on for example
>> http://www.alistapart.com/
>>
>> Cheers, Luc.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Konstantin Ignatyev
>
> http://www.kgionline.com
>
>
>
>
>
> PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen
> million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
> tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate
> between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons
> of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase
> their population by 263.000
>
> Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
> Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming
> Universities and Public Schools.
> New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Re: CSS layouts [auf Viren geprueft]
Posted by Jonathan O'Connor <Jo...@xcom.de>.
Summary: Pages don't have to look the exact same in all browsers.
In Zeldman's book "Designing with Web Standards", he says that your web
site does not have to look exactly the same in all browsers. Yes, you can
make it look really nice in the new browsers, but its OK if the pages
don't look funky but still work in older browsers.
What should never happen, (which seems to happen quite alot to me now that
I've switched to Firefox as my main browser) is sites detecting that I'm
not using Browser X, and stopping me from using the site. I don't care if
the site looks like something designed by a programmer, instead of a
graphic designer. I just want to be able to use these sites.
Ciao,
Jonathan O'Connor
XCOM Dublin
Kris Rasmussen <kr...@yahoo.com>
31/01/2005 06:56
Please respond to
"Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
To
Tapestry users <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
cc
Subject
Re: CSS layouts [auf Viren geprueft]
Here is why I think tapestry needs a more flexible templating system...
I too support css and actually just spent an entire weak developing a very
nice web application template using css/javascript. It support fancy
tabbing, drag and drop reordering, font-size switching and more. However,
I must say that it took a whole lot of extra time trying to get it to work
in ie 6 and firefox not to mention what it would take to get it working in
the rest of the browsers. Floating is miserably buggy, but without it its
pretty much impossible to create elastic designs with multiple columns.
The amount of css hacks I had to use to get everything to line up in both
browsers is questionable as well. Not to mention that complicated css
layouts can bring a browser to its knees while rendering them.
It was great having the flexibility of css to easilly change images,
create rollover effects, and nudge things around. However, when I am
finally ready to deploy my app I will probably have to convert the design
to tables so that I can be sure it looks good in all browsers.
So I fully support css, but I don't think it has quite a ways to go before
we can depend on it.
Kris
Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Many thanks for those links. But my line of reasoning is like this:
- I agree wholeheartedly that CSS should be THE correct way for doing
page formatting;
- But I have never seen a site that is done with CSS layouts and do
provides liquid and scalable layout, that works consistently in IE,
Mozilla and Opera;
Because I want my web-application working consistently in IE, Mozilla
and Opera I stick with Tables based layout and basic CSS.
Do you have any links to sites, which are built with CSS and do provide
liquid and scalable layout that works consistently in IE, Mozilla and
Opera?
If I could at least see that it is possible I would consider CSS for
doing layouts?
Luc Peerdeman wrote:
> Konstantin Iignatyev wrote:
>
>> Of course I use CSS (could not claim that I am a pro), but even
>> simple thing like links underscoring sometimes works differently in
>> IE and Firefox/Mozilla. zengarden is supposed to be a showcase but it
>> fails because of reasons I have mentioned.
>>
>> No, I do not use CSS for layout, not I plan to in the nearest future.
>
>
> I can highly recommend the following books:
>
> - Designing with web standards, by Jeffrey Zeldman (very fun to read
> and explains very well why CSS nowadays is _the_ way to handle layout)
>
> - Web standards solutions, by Dan Cederholm (many nice examples of how
> to use web standards to make perfectly layed out pages)
>
> And of course the books by Eric Meyer on CSS (two books with project
> examples and two reference books).
>
> After reading those I am sure you will have to adjust your ideas about
> CSS. I have to admit that until half a year ago I also did not realize
> the possibilities of CSS combined with other technologies (like DOM in
> the browser etc). Also did not know that for almost all browser
> incompatibilities good solutions have been thought out, so there is no
> need anymore for different versions of pages for browser sniffing for
> layout reasons.
>
> One of the advantages I have experienced on my current project is the
> fact that pages get much more compact when styled in a smart way. I
> got some HTML templates for from a design firm that were styled in the
> old fashioned way: nested tables, inline images, etc etc. I was able
> to move all the images and styling to the CSS, reducing the size of
> the HTML that we now send to the client by (rough estimate) 80 %. And
> the layout looks exactly like the customer asked, and can be changed
> much more easily.
>
> For us as developers an added advantage is that Tapestry templates now
> look much cleaner with lots of the layout things moved to CSS classes.
>
> Btw a lot of good information on these subjects can also be found on
> the websites of said authors and on for example
> http://www.alistapart.com/
>
> Cheers, Luc.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Thanks,
Konstantin Ignatyev
http://www.kgionline.com
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen
million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between
forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil,
add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population
by 263.000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities
and Public Schools.
New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
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Re: CSS layouts
Posted by Kris Rasmussen <kr...@yahoo.com>.
Here is why I think tapestry needs a more flexible templating system...
I too support css and actually just spent an entire weak developing a very nice web application template using css/javascript. It support fancy tabbing, drag and drop reordering, font-size switching and more. However, I must say that it took a whole lot of extra time trying to get it to work in ie 6 and firefox not to mention what it would take to get it working in the rest of the browsers. Floating is miserably buggy, but without it its pretty much impossible to create elastic designs with multiple columns. The amount of css hacks I had to use to get everything to line up in both browsers is questionable as well. Not to mention that complicated css layouts can bring a browser to its knees while rendering them.
It was great having the flexibility of css to easilly change images, create rollover effects, and nudge things around. However, when I am finally ready to deploy my app I will probably have to convert the design to tables so that I can be sure it looks good in all browsers.
So I fully support css, but I don't think it has quite a ways to go before we can depend on it.
Kris
Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Many thanks for those links. But my line of reasoning is like this:
- I agree wholeheartedly that CSS should be THE correct way for doing
page formatting;
- But I have never seen a site that is done with CSS layouts and do
provides liquid and scalable layout, that works consistently in IE,
Mozilla and Opera;
Because I want my web-application working consistently in IE, Mozilla
and Opera I stick with Tables based layout and basic CSS.
Do you have any links to sites, which are built with CSS and do provide
liquid and scalable layout that works consistently in IE, Mozilla and
Opera?
If I could at least see that it is possible I would consider CSS for
doing layouts�
Luc Peerdeman wrote:
> Konstantin Iignatyev wrote:
>
>> Of course I use CSS (could not claim that I am a pro), but even
>> simple thing like links underscoring sometimes works differently in
>> IE and Firefox/Mozilla. zengarden is supposed to be a showcase but it
>> fails because of reasons I have mentioned.
>>
>> No, I do not use CSS for layout, not I plan to in the nearest future.
>
>
> I can highly recommend the following books:
>
> - Designing with web standards, by Jeffrey Zeldman (very fun to read
> and explains very well why CSS nowadays is _the_ way to handle layout)
>
> - Web standards solutions, by Dan Cederholm (many nice examples of how
> to use web standards to make perfectly layed out pages)
>
> And of course the books by Eric Meyer on CSS (two books with project
> examples and two reference books).
>
> After reading those I am sure you will have to adjust your ideas about
> CSS. I have to admit that until half a year ago I also did not realize
> the possibilities of CSS combined with other technologies (like DOM in
> the browser etc). Also did not know that for almost all browser
> incompatibilities good solutions have been thought out, so there is no
> need anymore for different versions of pages for browser sniffing for
> layout reasons.
>
> One of the advantages I have experienced on my current project is the
> fact that pages get much more compact when styled in a smart way. I
> got some HTML templates for from a design firm that were styled in the
> old fashioned way: nested tables, inline images, etc etc. I was able
> to move all the images and styling to the CSS, reducing the size of
> the HTML that we now send to the client by (rough estimate) 80 %. And
> the layout looks exactly like the customer asked, and can be changed
> much more easily.
>
> For us as developers an added advantage is that Tapestry templates now
> look much cleaner with lots of the layout things moved to CSS classes.
>
> Btw a lot of good information on these subjects can also be found on
> the websites of said authors and on for example
> http://www.alistapart.com/
>
> Cheers, Luc.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Thanks,
Konstantin Ignatyev
http://www.kgionline.com
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263.000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools.
New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
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CSS layouts
Posted by Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com>.
Many thanks for those links. But my line of reasoning is like this:
- I agree wholeheartedly that CSS should be THE correct way for doing
page formatting;
- But I have never seen a site that is done with CSS layouts and do
provides liquid and scalable layout, that works consistently in IE,
Mozilla and Opera;
Because I want my web-application working consistently in IE, Mozilla
and Opera I stick with Tables based layout and basic CSS.
Do you have any links to sites, which are built with CSS and do provide
liquid and scalable layout that works consistently in IE, Mozilla and
Opera?
If I could at least see that it is possible I would consider CSS for
doing layouts…
Luc Peerdeman wrote:
> Konstantin Iignatyev wrote:
>
>> Of course I use CSS (could not claim that I am a pro), but even
>> simple thing like links underscoring sometimes works differently in
>> IE and Firefox/Mozilla. zengarden is supposed to be a showcase but it
>> fails because of reasons I have mentioned.
>>
>> No, I do not use CSS for layout, not I plan to in the nearest future.
>
>
> I can highly recommend the following books:
>
> - Designing with web standards, by Jeffrey Zeldman (very fun to read
> and explains very well why CSS nowadays is _the_ way to handle layout)
>
> - Web standards solutions, by Dan Cederholm (many nice examples of how
> to use web standards to make perfectly layed out pages)
>
> And of course the books by Eric Meyer on CSS (two books with project
> examples and two reference books).
>
> After reading those I am sure you will have to adjust your ideas about
> CSS. I have to admit that until half a year ago I also did not realize
> the possibilities of CSS combined with other technologies (like DOM in
> the browser etc). Also did not know that for almost all browser
> incompatibilities good solutions have been thought out, so there is no
> need anymore for different versions of pages for browser sniffing for
> layout reasons.
>
> One of the advantages I have experienced on my current project is the
> fact that pages get much more compact when styled in a smart way. I
> got some HTML templates for from a design firm that were styled in the
> old fashioned way: nested tables, inline images, etc etc. I was able
> to move all the images and styling to the CSS, reducing the size of
> the HTML that we now send to the client by (rough estimate) 80 %. And
> the layout looks exactly like the customer asked, and can be changed
> much more easily.
>
> For us as developers an added advantage is that Tapestry templates now
> look much cleaner with lots of the layout things moved to CSS classes.
>
> Btw a lot of good information on these subjects can also be found on
> the websites of said authors and on for example
> http://www.alistapart.com/
>
> Cheers, Luc.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Thanks,
Konstantin Ignatyev
http://www.kgionline.com
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263.000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools.
New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
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Re: My personal Tapestry wish-list
Posted by Luc Peerdeman <lj...@xs4all.nl>.
Konstantin Iignatyev wrote:
> Of course I use CSS (could not claim that I am a pro), but even simple
> thing like links underscoring sometimes works differently in IE and
> Firefox/Mozilla. zengarden is supposed to be a showcase but it fails
> because of reasons I have mentioned.
>
> No, I do not use CSS for layout, not I plan to in the nearest future.
I can highly recommend the following books:
- Designing with web standards, by Jeffrey Zeldman (very fun to read and
explains very well why CSS nowadays is _the_ way to handle layout)
- Web standards solutions, by Dan Cederholm (many nice examples of how
to use web standards to make perfectly layed out pages)
And of course the books by Eric Meyer on CSS (two books with project
examples and two reference books).
After reading those I am sure you will have to adjust your ideas about
CSS. I have to admit that until half a year ago I also did not realize
the possibilities of CSS combined with other technologies (like DOM in
the browser etc). Also did not know that for almost all browser
incompatibilities good solutions have been thought out, so there is no
need anymore for different versions of pages for browser sniffing for
layout reasons.
One of the advantages I have experienced on my current project is the
fact that pages get much more compact when styled in a smart way. I got
some HTML templates for from a design firm that were styled in the old
fashioned way: nested tables, inline images, etc etc. I was able to move
all the images and styling to the CSS, reducing the size of the HTML
that we now send to the client by (rough estimate) 80 %. And the layout
looks exactly like the customer asked, and can be changed much more easily.
For us as developers an added advantage is that Tapestry templates now
look much cleaner with lots of the layout things moved to CSS classes.
Btw a lot of good information on these subjects can also be found on the
websites of said authors and on for example http://www.alistapart.com/
Cheers, Luc.
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Re: My personal Tapestry wish-list
Posted by Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com>.
Of course I use CSS (could not claim that I am a pro), but even simple
thing like links underscoring sometimes works differently in IE and
Firefox/Mozilla. zengarden is supposed to be a showcase but it fails
because of reasons I have mentioned.
No, I do not use CSS for layout, not I plan to in the nearest future.
Spring guys tried http://www.springframework.org/ , but try scaling it
in Mozilla - it gets ugly duplicates, does not scale in IE at all, but
scales perfectly in Opera - that is probably what 'mere mortals' could
achieve with CSS - does not help building trust in CSS either.
Jamie Orchard-Hays wrote:
> Do you use any css? I can't imagine going back to a world without it.
> I spent a lot of time really learning it this Winter and it has paid
> off immensely in our latest Darden project.
>
> Jamie
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Konstantin Iignatyev"
> <kg...@yahoo.com>
> To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 10:34 AM
> Subject: Re: My personal Tapestry wish-list
>
>
>> From the garden: Full browser compliance is still sometimes a pipe
>> dream, and we do not expect you to come up with pixel-perfect code
>> across every platform. .....
>>
>> That is the key: I guess people( and I am among them) do not trust CSS.
>>
>> fixed width design is unusable and harmful to eyes on high resolution
>> monitors ( 1680x1050 on my laptop )
>> Even those handpicked themes on the site behave inappropriately when
>> scaled (CTRL+ in Mozilla) ...
>>
>> That does not help building trust.
>>
>> So, I hope Tapestry 3.1 will implement that great proposal from wiki
>> - have "skin" attribute and Tapestry search will be
>> Name[_skin][_locale].ext
>>
>> Howard Lewis Ship wrote:
>>
>>> You might think that, but you haven't been to the Zen Garden:
>>>
>>> http://www.csszengarden.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:37:35 +0100 (MET),
>>> sarah.simbad@women-at-work.org <sa...@women-at-work.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you have the navigation bar on the left, or in the middle or at
>>>> the right
>>>> hand side you need completely different themes that can not be
>>>> achieved through css. You also might have a flash theme or a wap
>>>> theme...or
>>>> optimized for web tv..or a theme for blind people.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Konstantin Ignatyev
>>
>> http://www.kgionline.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen
>> million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
>> tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate
>> between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons
>> of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase
>> their population by 263.000
>>
>> Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement
>> Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New
>> York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Thanks,
Konstantin Ignatyev
http://www.kgionline.com
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263.000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools.
New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
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Re: My personal Tapestry wish-list
Posted by Jamie Orchard-Hays <ja...@dang.com>.
Do you use any css? I can't imagine going back to a world without it. I
spent a lot of time really learning it this Winter and it has paid off
immensely in our latest Darden project.
Jamie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Konstantin Iignatyev" <kg...@yahoo.com>
To: "Tapestry users" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: My personal Tapestry wish-list
> From the garden: Full browser compliance is still sometimes a pipe dream,
> and we do not expect you to come up with pixel-perfect code across every
> platform. .....
>
> That is the key: I guess people( and I am among them) do not trust CSS.
>
> fixed width design is unusable and harmful to eyes on high resolution
> monitors ( 1680x1050 on my laptop )
> Even those handpicked themes on the site behave inappropriately when
> scaled (CTRL+ in Mozilla) ...
>
> That does not help building trust.
>
> So, I hope Tapestry 3.1 will implement that great proposal from wiki -
> have "skin" attribute and Tapestry search will be Name[_skin][_locale].ext
>
> Howard Lewis Ship wrote:
>
>>You might think that, but you haven't been to the Zen Garden:
>>
>>http://www.csszengarden.com/
>>
>>
>>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:37:35 +0100 (MET),
>>sarah.simbad@women-at-work.org <sa...@women-at-work.org> wrote:
>>
>>>If you have the navigation bar on the left, or in the middle or at the
>>>right
>>>hand side you need completely different themes that can not be
>>>achieved through css. You also might have a flash theme or a wap
>>>theme...or
>>>optimized for web tv..or a theme for blind people.
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Konstantin Ignatyev
>
> http://www.kgionline.com
>
>
>
>
>
> PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen
> million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
> tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between
> forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil,
> add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population
> by 263.000
>
> Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement Needs
> a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New York:
> State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
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Re: My personal Tapestry wish-list
Posted by Konstantin Iignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com>.
From the garden: Full browser compliance is still sometimes a pipe
dream, and we do not expect you to come up with pixel-perfect code
across every platform. .....
That is the key: I guess people( and I am among them) do not trust CSS.
fixed width design is unusable and harmful to eyes on high resolution
monitors ( 1680x1050 on my laptop )
Even those handpicked themes on the site behave inappropriately when
scaled (CTRL+ in Mozilla) ...
That does not help building trust.
So, I hope Tapestry 3.1 will implement that great proposal from wiki -
have "skin" attribute and Tapestry search will be Name[_skin][_locale].ext
Howard Lewis Ship wrote:
>You might think that, but you haven't been to the Zen Garden:
>
>http://www.csszengarden.com/
>
>
>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:37:35 +0100 (MET),
>sarah.simbad@women-at-work.org <sa...@women-at-work.org> wrote:
>
>
>>If you have the navigation bar on the left, or in the middle or at the right
>>hand side you need completely different themes that can not be
>>achieved through css. You also might have a flash theme or a wap theme...or
>>optimized for web tv..or a theme for blind people.
>>
>>
>>
--
Thanks,
Konstantin Ignatyev
http://www.kgionline.com
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2.700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263.000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial:
Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools.
New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
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Re: My personal Tapestry wish-list
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
You might think that, but you haven't been to the Zen Garden:
http://www.csszengarden.com/
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:37:35 +0100 (MET),
sarah.simbad@women-at-work.org <sa...@women-at-work.org> wrote:
> If you have the navigation bar on the left, or in the middle or at the right
> hand side you need completely different themes that can not be
> achieved through css. You also might have a flash theme or a wap theme...or
> optimized for web tv..or a theme for blind people.
>
> > On Jan 28, 2005, at 4:58 AM, sarah.simbad@women-at-work.org wrote:>> > My
> personal Tapestry wish-list would be:
> >
> > Add these to the wiki:
> >
> > http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta-tapestry/WishList
> >
> > > - themeing support, e.g. for specifying the .html templates name with a
> > > parameter
> >
> > What exactly do you need to switch for themes? If its just CSS, which
> > is the primary way it should be done, then you could easily toggle the
> > @Shell stylesheet parameter dynamically with very little code at all.
> > You can also swap templates by faking the locale setting currently.
> >
> > You may also want to consider using SiteMesh for this type of theming.
> > SiteMesh is my current hammer, and it has some very nice ways of doing
> > these sorts of things also. And I just created a way to allow Tapestry
> > pages to be SiteMesh decorators.
> >
> > Yes, it will be nice to have improved theme support from Tapestry
> > itself in the future, but do consider the options above now.
> >
> > Erik
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
Creator, Jakarta Tapestry
Creator, Jakarta HiveMind
Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support
and project work. http://howardlewisship.com
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Re: My personal Tapestry wish-list
Posted by Erik Hatcher <er...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
On Jan 28, 2005, at 9:37 AM, sarah.simbad@women-at-work.org wrote:
> If you have the navigation bar on the left, or in the middle or at the
> right
> hand side you need completely different themes that can not be
> achieved through css.
From what I've seen, this is incorrect. CSS can most definitely
control layout to this degree and much more. Click on the different
themes on this site:
http://www.csszengarden.com/
> You also might have a flash theme or a wap theme...or
> optimized for web tv..or a theme for blind people.
Again, I think you should consider SiteMesh. You could have URL's like
/flash, /wap, /webtv, /blind all mapped to different Tapestry pages
keyed off the user agent, request parameters, or any other tricks you'd
like. Or you could have them all mapped to the same Tapestry page and
have the page know which "theme" has been selected.
Too often it seems we think every solution must be embedded within
Tapestry. While I agree that flexible theme switching logic built into
the framework is nice and needed, there are perfectly viable and clean
solutions that you can have *today*.
Erik
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Re: My personal Tapestry wish-list
Posted by Todd O'Bryan <to...@mac.com>.
Um, the position of the navigation bar is completely controllable by
CSS.
Check out
http://www.csszengarden.com
to see just what you can do with CSS alone.
Todd
On Jan 28, 2005, at 9:37 AM, sarah.simbad@women-at-work.org wrote:
> If you have the navigation bar on the left, or in the middle or at the
> right
> hand side you need completely different themes that can not be
> achieved through css. You also might have a flash theme or a wap
> theme...or
> optimized for web tv..or a theme for blind people.
>
>> On Jan 28, 2005, at 4:58 AM, sarah.simbad@women-at-work.org wrote:>>
>> > My
> personal Tapestry wish-list would be:
>>
>> Add these to the wiki:
>>
>> http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta-tapestry/WishList
>>
>>> - themeing support, e.g. for specifying the .html templates name
>>> with a
>>> parameter
>>
>> What exactly do you need to switch for themes? If its just CSS, which
>> is the primary way it should be done, then you could easily toggle the
>> @Shell stylesheet parameter dynamically with very little code at all.
>> You can also swap templates by faking the locale setting currently.
>>
>> You may also want to consider using SiteMesh for this type of theming.
>> SiteMesh is my current hammer, and it has some very nice ways of doing
>> these sorts of things also. And I just created a way to allow
>> Tapestry
>> pages to be SiteMesh decorators.
>>
>> Yes, it will be nice to have improved theme support from Tapestry
>> itself in the future, but do consider the options above now.
>>
>> Erik
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: My personal Tapestry wish-list
Posted by sa...@women-at-work.org.
If you have the navigation bar on the left, or in the middle or at the right
hand side you need completely different themes that can not be
achieved through css. You also might have a flash theme or a wap theme...or
optimized for web tv..or a theme for blind people.
> On Jan 28, 2005, at 4:58 AM, sarah.simbad@women-at-work.org wrote:>> > My
personal Tapestry wish-list would be:
>
> Add these to the wiki:
>
> http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta-tapestry/WishList
>
> > - themeing support, e.g. for specifying the .html templates name with a
> > parameter
>
> What exactly do you need to switch for themes? If its just CSS, which
> is the primary way it should be done, then you could easily toggle the
> @Shell stylesheet parameter dynamically with very little code at all.
> You can also swap templates by faking the locale setting currently.
>
> You may also want to consider using SiteMesh for this type of theming.
> SiteMesh is my current hammer, and it has some very nice ways of doing
> these sorts of things also. And I just created a way to allow Tapestry
> pages to be SiteMesh decorators.
>
> Yes, it will be nice to have improved theme support from Tapestry
> itself in the future, but do consider the options above now.
>
> Erik
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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>
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Re: My personal Tapestry wish-list
Posted by Erik Hatcher <er...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
On Jan 28, 2005, at 4:58 AM, sarah.simbad@women-at-work.org wrote:
> My personal Tapestry wish-list would be:
Add these to the wiki:
http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta-tapestry/WishList
> - themeing support, e.g. for specifying the .html templates name with a
> parameter
What exactly do you need to switch for themes? If its just CSS, which
is the primary way it should be done, then you could easily toggle the
@Shell stylesheet parameter dynamically with very little code at all.
You can also swap templates by faking the locale setting currently.
You may also want to consider using SiteMesh for this type of theming.
SiteMesh is my current hammer, and it has some very nice ways of doing
these sorts of things also. And I just created a way to allow Tapestry
pages to be SiteMesh decorators.
Yes, it will be nice to have improved theme support from Tapestry
itself in the future, but do consider the options above now.
Erik
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