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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Tim Larson <ti...@keow.org> on 2004/04/27 18:32:26 UTC
Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript : documentation on model
[Copying to the dev list for additional discussion]
On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 05:53:54PM +0200, Bruno Dumon wrote:
> On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 16:48, laurent_rorive@marinepower.com wrote:
> > We can of course retrieve the widget, but can we change the label of
> > the widget, the key of the i18n of the label, can we change the
> > style,... ?
<snip/>
> no, no and no, respectively
<snip/>
> However, things like labels are not changeable on the widget instance
> level. You're the first one to ask for it. Do you need it? What's your
> use case?
I have seen this asked for before, but I do not remember if it was on
this ml or on the IRC channel. The current workaround is to use either
an "output" or a "messages" widget in place of the label to gain full
control.
Is this workaround sufficient or does it break any usability standards,
such as for text-to-speech and other automated systems?
--Tim Larson
Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript :
documentation on model
Posted by Bruno Dumon <br...@outerthought.org>.
(didn't pay attention that reply was going to dev list)
On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 18:32, Tim Larson wrote:
> [Copying to the dev list for additional discussion]
>
> On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 05:53:54PM +0200, Bruno Dumon wrote:
> > On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 16:48, laurent_rorive@marinepower.com wrote:
> > > We can of course retrieve the widget, but can we change the label of
> > > the widget, the key of the i18n of the label, can we change the
> > > style,... ?
> <snip/>
> > no, no and no, respectively
> <snip/>
> > However, things like labels are not changeable on the widget instance
> > level. You're the first one to ask for it. Do you need it? What's your
> > use case?
>
> I have seen this asked for before, but I do not remember if it was on
> this ml or on the IRC channel. The current workaround is to use either
> an "output" or a "messages" widget in place of the label to gain full
> control.
Well if people need it we better make it possible. After all, it's
possible to change e.g. the selection list, so why shouldn't it be
possible to change (or rather "override") the label?
>
> Is this workaround sufficient or does it break any usability standards,
> such as for text-to-speech and other automated systems?
>
> --Tim Larson
--
Bruno Dumon http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
bruno@outerthought.org bruno@apache.org
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Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript : documentation
on model
Posted by la...@marinepower.com.
I resolved the problem by using XSP to generate my form template.
Based on the request or session attributes I can adapt the template to my
need !
Thx for your comments
Laurent
Bruno Dumon <br...@outerthought.org>
28/04/2004 20:01
Please respond to users
To: users@cocoon.apache.org
cc:
Subject: Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody +
FlowScript : documentation on model
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 09:49, laurent_rorive@marinepower.com wrote:
> I think that now this is a widget type "output" ?
I always thought of the output widget as the read-only equivalent of a
field widget, and it seemed conceptually incorrect to misuse it as a
label.
>>From a technical point of view, it probably doesn't make much difference
though.
However for labels you often want to use mixed content (e.g. to get
i18n-ized labels). This could be done by making an XmlizalbeDatatype or
something like that. But then it still wouldn't work because then it
needs a convertor, and converters convert to plain strings...
>
>
>
>
> Bruno Dumon
> <br...@outerthought.org>
>
> 27/04/2004 18:50
> Please respond to users
>
> To:
> users@cocoon.apache.org
> cc:
> Subject:
> Re: Dynamically
> changing labels, was
> Re: Woody + FlowScript
> : documentation
> on model
>
>
> On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 18:59, Tim Larson wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 06:14:34PM +0200,
> laurent_rorive@marinepower.com wrote:
> > > Dear Tim ,
> > >
> > > I also think about it but my problem is that I'm in an
> international
> > > environment and that I use i18n to provide message
> > > So what I want is changing an <i18n:text key=...> with the key I
> want.
> > > Is it possible with widget output ?
> >
> > It should be possible using a "messages" widget. See the comments
> in
> > the flowscript for the "customvalidationdemo" sample form:
> > cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/flow/customvalidationdemo.js
> >
>
cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/forms/customvalidationdemo_form.xml
> >
>
cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/forms/customvalidationdemo_template.xml
>
> I'm wondering if:
>
> * anyone is using the messages widget? I've added it quite some time
> ago
> because a user seemed to need something like that, but haven't ever
> used
> it myself nor ever heard about someone using it.
>
> * and if there aren't more people who simply need a message, rather
> than
> a messages, widget, and if it'd be useful to add such a widget?
>
> --
> Bruno Dumon http://outerthought.org/
> Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
> bruno@outerthought.org bruno@apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
--
Bruno Dumon http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
bruno@outerthought.org bruno@apache.org
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Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript
: documentation on model
Posted by Bruno Dumon <br...@outerthought.org>.
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 09:49, laurent_rorive@marinepower.com wrote:
> I think that now this is a widget type "output" ?
I always thought of the output widget as the read-only equivalent of a
field widget, and it seemed conceptually incorrect to misuse it as a
label.
>>From a technical point of view, it probably doesn't make much difference
though.
However for labels you often want to use mixed content (e.g. to get
i18n-ized labels). This could be done by making an XmlizalbeDatatype or
something like that. But then it still wouldn't work because then it
needs a convertor, and converters convert to plain strings...
>
>
>
>
> Bruno Dumon
> <br...@outerthought.org>
>
> 27/04/2004 18:50
> Please respond to users
>
> To:
> users@cocoon.apache.org
> cc:
> Subject:
> Re: Dynamically
> changing labels, was
> Re: Woody + FlowScript
> : documentation
> on model
>
>
> On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 18:59, Tim Larson wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 06:14:34PM +0200,
> laurent_rorive@marinepower.com wrote:
> > > Dear Tim ,
> > >
> > > I also think about it but my problem is that I'm in an
> international
> > > environment and that I use i18n to provide message
> > > So what I want is changing an <i18n:text key=...> with the key I
> want.
> > > Is it possible with widget output ?
> >
> > It should be possible using a "messages" widget. See the comments
> in
> > the flowscript for the "customvalidationdemo" sample form:
> > cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/flow/customvalidationdemo.js
> >
> cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/forms/customvalidationdemo_form.xml
> >
> cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/forms/customvalidationdemo_template.xml
>
> I'm wondering if:
>
> * anyone is using the messages widget? I've added it quite some time
> ago
> because a user seemed to need something like that, but haven't ever
> used
> it myself nor ever heard about someone using it.
>
> * and if there aren't more people who simply need a message, rather
> than
> a messages, widget, and if it'd be useful to add such a widget?
>
> --
> Bruno Dumon http://outerthought.org/
> Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
> bruno@outerthought.org bruno@apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
--
Bruno Dumon http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
bruno@outerthought.org bruno@apache.org
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From: laurent_rorive@marinepower.com
To: users@cocoon.apache.org
Subj: Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript : documentation
Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody +
font size=1 face="sans-serif"
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 09:49:01 +0200
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Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript : documentation
on model
Posted by la...@marinepower.com.
I think that now this is a widget type "output" ?
Bruno Dumon <br...@outerthought.org>
27/04/2004 18:50
Please respond to users
To: users@cocoon.apache.org
cc:
Subject: Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody +
FlowScript : documentation on model
On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 18:59, Tim Larson wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 06:14:34PM +0200, laurent_rorive@marinepower.com
wrote:
> > Dear Tim ,
> >
> > I also think about it but my problem is that I'm in an international
> > environment and that I use i18n to provide message
> > So what I want is changing an <i18n:text key=...> with the key I
want.
> > Is it possible with widget output ?
>
> It should be possible using a "messages" widget. See the comments in
> the flowscript for the "customvalidationdemo" sample form:
> cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/flow/customvalidationdemo.js
>
cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/forms/customvalidationdemo_form.xml
>
cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/forms/customvalidationdemo_template.xml
I'm wondering if:
* anyone is using the messages widget? I've added it quite some time ago
because a user seemed to need something like that, but haven't ever used
it myself nor ever heard about someone using it.
* and if there aren't more people who simply need a message, rather than
a messages, widget, and if it'd be useful to add such a widget?
--
Bruno Dumon http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
bruno@outerthought.org bruno@apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
RE: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript :documentation on model
Posted by Uchenna Igwebuike <uc...@sbcglobal.net>.
I am a big user of that widget and it should absolutely stay with the
product - Brilliant widget.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Dumon [mailto:bruno@outerthought.org]
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 9:50 AM
To: users@cocoon.apache.org
Subject: Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript
:documentation on model
On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 18:59, Tim Larson wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 06:14:34PM +0200,
laurent_rorive@marinepower.com wrote:
> > Dear Tim ,
> >
> > I also think about it but my problem is that I'm in an international
> > environment and that I use i18n to provide message
> > So what I want is changing an <i18n:text key=...> with the key I
want.
> > Is it possible with widget output ?
>
> It should be possible using a "messages" widget. See the comments in
> the flowscript for the "customvalidationdemo" sample form:
> cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/flow/customvalidationdemo.js
>
cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/forms/customvalidationdemo_form.xm
l
>
cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/forms/customvalidationdemo_templat
e.xml
I'm wondering if:
* anyone is using the messages widget? I've added it quite some time ago
because a user seemed to need something like that, but haven't ever used
it myself nor ever heard about someone using it.
* and if there aren't more people who simply need a message, rather than
a messages, widget, and if it'd be useful to add such a widget?
--
Bruno Dumon http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
bruno@outerthought.org bruno@apache.org
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Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript :
documentation on model
Posted by Bruno Dumon <br...@outerthought.org>.
On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 18:59, Tim Larson wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 06:14:34PM +0200, laurent_rorive@marinepower.com wrote:
> > Dear Tim ,
> >
> > I also think about it but my problem is that I'm in an international
> > environment and that I use i18n to provide message
> > So what I want is changing an <i18n:text key=...> with the key I want.
> > Is it possible with widget output ?
>
> It should be possible using a "messages" widget. See the comments in
> the flowscript for the "customvalidationdemo" sample form:
> cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/flow/customvalidationdemo.js
> cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/forms/customvalidationdemo_form.xml
> cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/forms/customvalidationdemo_template.xml
I'm wondering if:
* anyone is using the messages widget? I've added it quite some time ago
because a user seemed to need something like that, but haven't ever used
it myself nor ever heard about someone using it.
* and if there aren't more people who simply need a message, rather than
a messages, widget, and if it'd be useful to add such a widget?
--
Bruno Dumon http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
bruno@outerthought.org bruno@apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
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Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript : documentation on model
Posted by Tim Larson <ti...@keow.org>.
On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 06:14:34PM +0200, laurent_rorive@marinepower.com wrote:
> Dear Tim ,
>
> I also think about it but my problem is that I'm in an international
> environment and that I use i18n to provide message
> So what I want is changing an <i18n:text key=...> with the key I want.
> Is it possible with widget output ?
It should be possible using a "messages" widget. See the comments in
the flowscript for the "customvalidationdemo" sample form:
cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/flow/customvalidationdemo.js
cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/forms/customvalidationdemo_form.xml
cocoon-2.1.4/src/blocks/woody/samples/forms/customvalidationdemo_template.xml
--Tim Larson
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Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript : documentation
on model
Posted by Marc Portier <mp...@outerthought.org>.
[on changing the label on the instance-level]
Bruno Dumon and Sylvain Wallez wrote their parts of:
>>>
>>>Well if people need it we better make it possible. After all, it's
>>>possible to change e.g. the selection list, so why shouldn't it be
>>>possible to change (or rather "override") the label?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Selection-list is used at the application level, whereas storing the
>>label in the definition is mostly a convenience (it's part of the
>>display data). Next, we will be asked to dynamically change the hint,
>>help, accesskey, etc.
>>
>>IMO, this is going too far. If some people need changing labels, the
>>simplest way to do it is at the view level, i.e. in the template,
>>possibly relying on data passed from the flowscript, but out of the
>>form's responsibility.
>
>
> I need to think more about this, but I agree with the basic point that
> label and other display data is a concern of the display pipeline, and
> that it should be handled over there. OTOH it could then also be said
> that it should not be part of the form model at all. I know it's because
> of convenience, but being able to modify the label (or styling
> information for that matter) from within the flowscript could also be
> called convenience :-)
>
> If people start using output widgets to dynamically set the label, then
> that's also far from optimal.
indeed!
>
> Anyhow, I'd need to understand better the usecases for doing such things
> to think about the best approach.
>
I have another one to add onto your list of convenience :-)
<fi:value> why don't we allow it on the field-definition and templates?
it could serve as a hint-default value that gets inserted into the
publication line (only if the widget.getValue()== null), but never
actually sets the widget value without a confirming request from the
user. (this is better then setting defaults in binding since then save()
would copy over to the backend while 'null' might be more appropriate)
the convenience would be to be able to add it on both definition or
template levels and apply some logical fall-back rules in taking which
one: 1/ widget's own getValue() 2/ whatever was in the template 3/ then
use what was in the defintion
and IMO the same could indeed apply for hint/help/label
as such, it is not IMO part of the 'displayData' (I know the method
calls it like that) but more part of the 'instance-data' (as the fi:
namespace we agreed upon for those is hinting)
IMO everything in the fi namespace deserves to be (changeable) on the
instance level
(this seems to be a case of valuing the namespace separation higher then
the split and naming provided by the current code-implementation)
wdyt?
-marc=
--
Marc Portier http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/mpo/
mpo@outerthought.org mpo@apache.org
Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript
: documentation on model
Posted by Bruno Dumon <br...@outerthought.org>.
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 08:05, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Bruno Dumon wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 18:32, Tim Larson wrote:
> >
> >
> >>[Copying to the dev list for additional discussion]
> >>
> >>On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 05:53:54PM +0200, Bruno Dumon wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 16:48, laurent_rorive@marinepower.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>We can of course retrieve the widget, but can we change the label of
> >>>>the widget, the key of the i18n of the label, can we change the
> >>>>style,... ?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >><snip/>
> >>
> >>
> >>>no, no and no, respectively
> >>>
> >>>
> >><snip/>
> >>
> >>
> >>>However, things like labels are not changeable on the widget instance
> >>>level. You're the first one to ask for it. Do you need it? What's your
> >>>use case?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>I have seen this asked for before, but I do not remember if it was on
> >>this ml or on the IRC channel. The current workaround is to use either
> >>an "output" or a "messages" widget in place of the label to gain full
> >>control.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Well if people need it we better make it possible. After all, it's
> >possible to change e.g. the selection list, so why shouldn't it be
> >possible to change (or rather "override") the label?
> >
> >
>
> Selection-list is used at the application level, whereas storing the
> label in the definition is mostly a convenience (it's part of the
> display data). Next, we will be asked to dynamically change the hint,
> help, accesskey, etc.
>
> IMO, this is going too far. If some people need changing labels, the
> simplest way to do it is at the view level, i.e. in the template,
> possibly relying on data passed from the flowscript, but out of the
> form's responsibility.
I need to think more about this, but I agree with the basic point that
label and other display data is a concern of the display pipeline, and
that it should be handled over there. OTOH it could then also be said
that it should not be part of the form model at all. I know it's because
of convenience, but being able to modify the label (or styling
information for that matter) from within the flowscript could also be
called convenience :-)
If people start using output widgets to dynamically set the label, then
that's also far from optimal.
Anyhow, I'd need to understand better the usecases for doing such things
to think about the best approach.
--
Bruno Dumon http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
bruno@outerthought.org bruno@apache.org
Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript : documentation
on model
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Bruno Dumon wrote:
>On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 18:32, Tim Larson wrote:
>
>
>>[Copying to the dev list for additional discussion]
>>
>>On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 05:53:54PM +0200, Bruno Dumon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 16:48, laurent_rorive@marinepower.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>We can of course retrieve the widget, but can we change the label of
>>>>the widget, the key of the i18n of the label, can we change the
>>>>style,... ?
>>>>
>>>>
>><snip/>
>>
>>
>>>no, no and no, respectively
>>>
>>>
>><snip/>
>>
>>
>>>However, things like labels are not changeable on the widget instance
>>>level. You're the first one to ask for it. Do you need it? What's your
>>>use case?
>>>
>>>
>>I have seen this asked for before, but I do not remember if it was on
>>this ml or on the IRC channel. The current workaround is to use either
>>an "output" or a "messages" widget in place of the label to gain full
>>control.
>>
>>
>
>Well if people need it we better make it possible. After all, it's
>possible to change e.g. the selection list, so why shouldn't it be
>possible to change (or rather "override") the label?
>
>
Selection-list is used at the application level, whereas storing the
label in the definition is mostly a convenience (it's part of the
display data). Next, we will be asked to dynamically change the hint,
help, accesskey, etc.
IMO, this is going too far. If some people need changing labels, the
simplest way to do it is at the view level, i.e. in the template,
possibly relying on data passed from the flowscript, but out of the
form's responsibility.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript :
documentation on model
Posted by Bruno Dumon <br...@outerthought.org>.
On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 18:32, Tim Larson wrote:
> [Copying to the dev list for additional discussion]
>
> On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 05:53:54PM +0200, Bruno Dumon wrote:
> > On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 16:48, laurent_rorive@marinepower.com wrote:
> > > We can of course retrieve the widget, but can we change the label of
> > > the widget, the key of the i18n of the label, can we change the
> > > style,... ?
> <snip/>
> > no, no and no, respectively
> <snip/>
> > However, things like labels are not changeable on the widget instance
> > level. You're the first one to ask for it. Do you need it? What's your
> > use case?
>
> I have seen this asked for before, but I do not remember if it was on
> this ml or on the IRC channel. The current workaround is to use either
> an "output" or a "messages" widget in place of the label to gain full
> control.
Well if people need it we better make it possible. After all, it's
possible to change e.g. the selection list, so why shouldn't it be
possible to change (or rather "override") the label?
>
> Is this workaround sufficient or does it break any usability standards,
> such as for text-to-speech and other automated systems?
>
> --Tim Larson
--
Bruno Dumon http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
bruno@outerthought.org bruno@apache.org
Re: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody + FlowScript : documentation
on model
Posted by la...@marinepower.com.
Dear Tim ,
I also think about it but my problem is that I'm in an international
environment and that I use i18n to provide message
So what I want is changing an <i18n:text key=...> with the key I want.
Is it possible with widget output ?
Tim Larson <ti...@keow.org>
27/04/2004 18:32
Please respond to users
To: users@cocoon.apache.org, dev@cocoon.apache.org
cc:
Subject: Dynamically changing labels, was Re: Woody +
FlowScript : documentation on model
[Copying to the dev list for additional discussion]
On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 05:53:54PM +0200, Bruno Dumon wrote:
> On Tue, 2004-04-27 at 16:48, laurent_rorive@marinepower.com wrote:
> > We can of course retrieve the widget, but can we change the label of
> > the widget, the key of the i18n of the label, can we change the
> > style,... ?
<snip/>
> no, no and no, respectively
<snip/>
> However, things like labels are not changeable on the widget instance
> level. You're the first one to ask for it. Do you need it? What's your
> use case?
I have seen this asked for before, but I do not remember if it was on
this ml or on the IRC channel. The current workaround is to use either
an "output" or a "messages" widget in place of the label to gain full
control.
Is this workaround sufficient or does it break any usability standards,
such as for text-to-speech and other automated systems?
--Tim Larson
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