Tuscany IRC Log (May-10-2006)

[Jean-Sebastien Delfino <js...@apache.org>]

(08:30:37 AM) jsdelfino: hi folks
(08:30:45 AM) ant_: hi
(08:31:33 AM) rfeng: hi
(08:32:29 AM) cr22rc: when we chatting ?
(08:32:59 AM) jsdelfino: now?
(08:33:11 AM) kgoodson: yes, according to the note on the mailing list
(08:33:17 AM) jsdelfino: :)
(08:33:30 AM) jmarino: hi
(08:33:35 AM) cr22rc: k :-)
(08:33:37 AM) jsdelfino: hi jim
(08:34:13 AM) jsdelfino: here's what I had in mind for today:
(08:34:32 AM) jsdelfino: discuss some of the remaining important JIRAs
(08:34:46 AM) jsdelfino: the practical plan for our M1 release
(08:34:56 AM) jsdelfino: what people want to show at javaone
(08:35:25 AM) jsdelfino: and I forgot to put it in the email yesterday, 
but we need to see where we are with the distro build
(08:35:38 AM) jsdelfino: when can we build a distro that we can try out
(08:36:05 AM) jsdelfino: anything else? and do people have time 
constraints that will influence the order in which we discuss these?
(08:37:11 AM) jsdelfino: I think we are making progress on the structure 
of the samples on the dev list so I suggest we leave this discussion there
(08:38:12 AM) jsdelfino: ok, I'm going to interpret silence as silent 
IRC nodding, let's move on to distro build :)
(08:38:22 AM) jsdelfino: rfeng, cr22rc, can u give us a quick update?
(08:38:26 AM) rfeng: sure
(08:39:01 AM) rfeng: I submitted a patch yesterday which can collect the 
jars and samples in the "dist" folder
(08:39:21 AM) rfeng: can somebody give a try to see if it's what we want
(08:39:24 AM) rfeng: ?
(08:39:39 AM) cr22rc: sorry didn't get around to it
(08:39:42 AM) rfeng: if yes, I'l continue on the path to pre-configure 
tomcat
(08:40:07 AM) dkulp: I don't think it's what we want.  :-)
(08:40:17 AM) jsdelfino: can u give us a brief overview of the structure 
that the build produces now?
(08:40:22 AM) dkulp: Using the "maven-dependency-plugin" is dangerous
(08:40:31 AM) dkulp: It includes a bunch of stuff we don't want shipping.
(08:40:37 AM) isilval [n=Ignacio@yktgi01e0-s5.watson.ibm.com] entered 
the room.
(08:40:47 AM) rfeng: please explain
(08:41:11 AM) rfeng: here're the steps in the build process
(08:41:18 AM) dkulp: It packages "system" and "test" scope dependencies 
(like tools.jar and easymock)
(08:41:24 AM) jsdelfino: rfeng, can u paste in a paste site the 
structure generated by the build? including the list of jars?
(08:41:52 AM) rfeng: 1) For runtime projects, we copy the depenendency 
jars and itself to the lib
(08:41:59 AM) jsdelfino: just do a dir /s or find . or something like 
that, so we all see what we're talking about?
(08:42:24 AM) rfeng: 2) for sample project, we copy the src/main/** and 
the target/jar|war
(08:42:33 AM) rfeng: let me post a list
(08:44:03 AM) rfeng: what's the site?
(08:44:55 AM) pombreda [n=pombreda@c-67-164-68-30.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] 
entered the room.
(08:44:58 AM) dkulp: http://rafb.net/paste/
(08:45:19 AM) haleh [n=hmahbod@c-24-6-102-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] 
entered the room.
(08:45:47 AM) rfeng: i don't see tools.jar in the lib
(08:45:53 AM) rfeng: posting ...
(08:46:24 AM) rfeng: http://rafb.net/paste/results/PEMAgN40.html
(08:46:40 AM) dkulp: You aren't on a Mac, are you?
(08:46:46 AM) rfeng: no, wxp
(08:47:25 AM) rfeng: can you see the site now?
(08:47:51 AM) jsdelfino: yes
(08:47:54 AM) ant_: thats a lot of dependencies
(08:47:54 AM) rfeng: for bindings, I can also create its own lib
(08:48:10 AM) jsdelfino: one comment, axis2 and celtix need to have 
their own dirs
(08:48:16 AM) rfeng: yes
(08:48:20 AM) cr22rc: scary
(08:48:24 AM) jsdelfino: lib/axis2
(08:48:27 AM) jsdelfino: lib/celtix
(08:48:32 AM) rfeng: yes
(08:48:50 AM) rfeng: so the jars under lib/axis2 will have some dups to lib
(08:48:57 AM) dkulp: I have a "maven-assembly-plugin" only distribution 
thing more or less working as well.   (through it together in the last hour)
(08:49:31 AM) rfeng: I tried the assembly as well
(08:49:32 AM) cr22rc: servlet-api ?
(08:49:38 AM) dkulp: Let me get the file list up.... (rafb is being slow)
(08:49:49 AM) rfeng: it creates a hierarchy, right?
(08:49:57 AM) jsdelfino: why would the jars under lib/axis2 be 
duplicated in lib?
(08:50:03 AM) jsdelfino: I don't think they should
(08:50:12 AM) jsdelfino: lib == the core dependencies
(08:50:20 AM) rfeng: so we only list the jars which are not in lib
(08:50:21 AM) cr22rc: org.mortbay.jetty-5.1.9.jar
(08:50:29 AM) rfeng: got it
(08:50:31 AM) jsdelfino: axis2 == the extra dependencies for axis2
(08:50:39 AM) jsdelfino: celtix == the extra for celtix
(08:50:42 AM) dkulp: http://pastebin.com/709571
(08:51:52 AM) rfeng: so we have 485-378 jars
(08:52:13 AM) rfeng: =107 jars
(08:52:21 AM) dkulp: Some are dups  with celtix/axis/core that can be 
filtered out.
(08:52:26 AM) rfeng: ok
(08:52:40 AM) dkulp: The advantage of the assembly plugin is that you 
CAN filter them out.
(08:52:58 AM) rfeng: dan, when you say assembly plugin, is the one from 
maven itself?
(08:53:05 AM) dkulp: Yea.
(08:53:05 AM) rfeng: I tried that one a bit
(08:53:21 AM) rfeng: assembly:assembly?
(08:53:28 AM) dkulp: What's the JIRA number for dist?  I'll post a patch.
(08:53:35 AM) rfeng: let me check
(08:53:52 AM) rfeng: 282
(08:54:04 AM) jsdelfino: can u guys educate us on the advantages / 
potential issues with the assembly plugin
(08:54:42 AM) rfeng: dan?
(08:55:19 AM) jsdelfino: it looks good to me, just want to understand if 
there's any catch
(08:55:40 AM) jsdelfino: cause last time we had talked about this, 
people were saying that it'd be difficult to use maven
(08:56:08 AM) dkulp: Patch uploaded.
(08:56:21 AM) rfeng: one thing difficult in maven is how to do 
conditional things
(08:56:45 AM) dkulp: The dependency plugin always copies ALL 
dependencies, even test scope and system scopes.  Thus, you see easymock 
and such in the rfengs list.
(08:57:01 AM) rfeng: ok
(08:57:23 AM) dkulp: The assemply plugin actually allows copying 
specific scopes (or artifacts like just javadoc artifacts)
(08:57:44 AM) dkulp: It also allows fairly complete control over which 
directories things are placed in.
(08:58:12 AM) rfeng: sounds good to me, I cannot find the doc on the 
maven site, is it a newer version?
(08:58:17 AM) dkulp: You can use filesets and such in an assembly to 
control which non-dependency files (like sample source files) go where.
(08:58:50 AM) jsdelfino: ok, sounds good to me too, I guess we should go 
with the assembly plugin then
(08:58:51 AM) dkulp: That's the major downside.   The Docs SUCK big time.
(08:58:57 AM) jsdelfino: ah
(08:59:17 AM) dkulp: If you aren't familliar with it, you would never 
know what it can do.
(08:59:39 AM) dkulp: There was a "tutorial" posted to the maven list a 
couple days ago.   Let me see if I can find it.
(08:59:47 AM) rfeng: :-) that's the reason I went away from it
(08:59:57 AM) jsdelfino: so dan, will you have some time to stay on the 
chat today and support raymond a little in case he runs into unknown 
maven territory?
(09:00:02 AM) rfeng: cool, thanks for the inside info
(09:00:11 AM) dkulp: Yea.  I'm on all day. :-)
(09:00:55 AM) rfeng: one more thing, do you like the profile approach 
instead of have it on the main build?
(09:01:15 AM) jsdelfino: ok, if everybody's comfortable with that, I 
think it makes sense to use it instead of trying to use something else, 
this is THE maven tool for creating assemblies
(09:01:40 AM) dkulp: Well, with my patch, it moved it all into a 
"tuscany-distribution" sub-project.
(09:01:55 AM) dkulp: We can use a profile to add that subproject if you 
want or not even add it to the top level pom.
(09:02:15 AM) dkulp: For celtix, we don't have the distribution as part 
of the top level pom.
(09:02:17 AM) cr22rc: where can we get documentation on how to use it 
..just asking
(09:02:34 AM) rfeng: ok
(09:02:40 AM) jsdelfino: ok makes sense
(09:02:56 AM) dkulp: I added a note to the patch, but it really is just 
"cd tuscany-distribution; mvn package"
(09:03:16 AM) jsdelfino: I have 3 more questions
(09:03:21 AM) rfeng: is there anyway to know the top folder?
(09:03:51 AM) jsdelfino: 1. what's in the lib/tools, is it the set of 
the jars required by wsdl2java/java2wsdl etc?
(09:04:17 AM) dkulp: 1)  yes - we can just put that in lib if you 
want.   I just like to have "non-runtime" stuff pulled out.  Not a huge 
deal though.
(09:04:44 AM) jsdelfino: no it makes a lot of sense to me, it means less 
jars on the path for runtime users
(09:04:47 AM) jsdelfino: less is better
(09:05:13 AM) jsdelfino: 2) why are u packaging only the source of the 
samples? or did I miss the jars?
(09:05:35 AM) dkulp: 2) I only through this together in the last hour, 
haven't gotten that far yet.  :-)
(09:05:57 AM) dkulp: Basically, I'm "excluding" target/**/*, so the war 
is gone.
(09:06:18 AM) dkulp: I just need to adjust the filter fules.
(09:06:29 AM) cr22rc: is this all the docs there is to use this ? 
http://maven.apache.org/plugins/maven-assembly-plugin/howto.html
(09:06:37 AM) jsdelfino: ok no problem at all :) so it's question for 
all of us, do we want the sample JARs / wars pre-packaged
(09:06:47 AM) rfeng: I think so
(09:07:08 AM) rfeng: easy to try
(09:07:19 AM) dkulp: cr22rc: yes, plus the mini-guide at 
http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-assemblies.html
(09:07:37 AM) jsdelfino: and there's links to the reference of the 
plugin too
(09:07:37 AM) cr22rc: dkulp thax
(09:08:23 AM) jsdelfino: do we want the jars/wars for the samples, so 
far I have one +1 from rfeng (unless his "yes I think so" was instead a 
yes to cr22rc's question)
(09:08:44 AM) jsdelfino: +1, -1, -0, -1000? anyone?
(09:08:47 AM) ant_: a big +1 from me for prebuilt
(09:08:48 AM) jsdelfino: :)
(09:09:01 AM) cr22rc: +1 prebuilt
(09:09:17 AM) cr22rc: +1 predeployed in embedded TC
(09:09:25 AM) dkulp: Where are the prebuilt ones placed?
(09:09:42 AM) jsdelfino: good question, I would guess under each sample dir?
(09:09:47 AM) dkulp: Just put right in the tomcat/webapp dir or leave in 
target or where?
(09:10:14 AM) ant_: +1 for embedded in TC for this M1 as discussed on 
the last chat
(09:10:15 AM) jsdelfino: at the root of each sample dir? so that if the 
user wants to rebuild himself he doesn't override the one we ship?
(09:10:26 AM) rfeng: I suggest that it goes to <sample>\target
(09:10:49 AM) rfeng: or <sample>\build
(09:10:50 AM) jsdelfino: I was just talking about j2se, with TC, they'd 
go under webapps
(09:11:16 AM) jsdelfino: <sample>/target will be scratched by an mvn -o...
(09:11:16 AM) rfeng: shouldn't it goes to two places for webapps? or 
just TC?
(09:11:47 AM) rfeng: maybe sample/build?
(09:11:55 AM) jsdelfino: I think it would be good to have the war in the 
sample dir, in addition to webapp, but it's just me
(09:12:03 AM) rfeng: +1
(09:12:16 AM) ant_: +1
(09:12:39 AM) jsdelfino: dan, what are u guys doing for celtix? ant, 
what about other apache projects you've been working on, what was the 
direction there?
(09:12:54 AM) dkulp: We don't ship prebuilt demos.
(09:13:06 AM) jsdelfino: what about samples?
(09:13:20 AM) dkulp: (and by default our demos/samples don't require 
tomcat, that's optional)
(09:13:36 AM) dkulp: samples/demos, same difference.
(09:13:41 AM) rfeng: same here for Tuscany, TC is optional
(09:14:29 AM) dkulp: I should say "wars" are optional.   All samples can 
run standalone, no servlet container required.
(09:15:29 AM) jsdelfino: summary: each sample has a build directory 
(while I'm writing this, I'm thinking maybe bin would be better), 
containing the prebuilt jar or war, wars are also pre-deployed to the 
*optional* :) TC/webapps... that's just my summary, maybe a little 
biased, but what do you guys think?
(09:15:51 AM) dkulp: That sounds fine.
(09:15:59 AM) cr22rc: "*optional*" ?
(09:16:17 AM) cr22rc: are we not embedding tc ?
(09:16:25 AM) ant_: axis2 has prebuilt samples, but not predeployed, and 
bat scripts to make it easy to run j2se samples
(09:16:48 AM) jsdelfino: didn't we say TC was optional before? as a 
user, TC is embedded in our distro, but he doesn't *have* to use it
(09:17:31 AM) jsdelfino: ok, I think it makes sense for axis2, they 
don't embed TC, so they don't pre-deploy to TC :)
(09:17:49 AM) cr22rc: so don't *have* to use it to run helloWorldwsClient?
(09:18:13 AM) ant_: they have a mini http server with easy bat scripts 
to start it up, but no samples predeployed into that
(09:18:25 AM) jsdelfino: cr22rc, don't read more into the *optional* I 
was just trying to relate to the "tc is optional"  discussion
(09:18:50 AM) jsdelfino: you don't have to use tomcat to run 
supplychain, helloworld etc. that's what I meant
(09:18:59 AM) jsdelfino: only users interested in TC wil lhave to deal 
with it
(09:19:46 AM) jsdelfino: ant_, you're raising a good question, do you 
guys think that the sample wars should be pre-deployed to TC? or not?
(09:20:00 AM) jsdelfino: +1 would me pre-deploy, -1 not pre-deployed
(09:20:09 AM) rfeng: +1
(09:20:10 AM) cr22rc: did I just say that
(09:20:14 AM) cr22rc: +1
(09:20:16 AM) ant_: i tihnk they should. its a M1 release to demo what 
we can do
(09:20:34 AM) rfeng: otherwise, no need to embed tc
(09:20:37 AM) jsdelfino: ok, my +1 as well then
(09:20:49 AM) jsdelfino: good, making progress :)
(09:20:57 AM) rfeng: helps me a lot :-)
(09:21:06 AM) jsdelfino: my next question is about the samples
(09:21:23 AM) jsdelfino: looks like we have consensus on sampleapps on 
the dev list
(09:21:30 AM) jsdelfino: so sampleapps/bigbank
(09:21:37 AM) rfeng: another question, for TC, local binary or on-demand 
ftp?
(09:21:51 AM) jsdelfino: for the build u mean?
(09:22:09 AM) rfeng: right
(09:22:33 AM) jsdelfino: go with the simplest for now
(09:22:35 AM) dkulp: Both are VERY fragile.
(09:22:45 AM) rfeng: ok, I'll stay local for now
(09:22:47 AM) cr22rc: I think it's enough for it to be local as long as 
the build fails if its not there
(09:22:57 AM) dkulp: I agree.
(09:23:13 AM) jsdelfino: k, next question is the structure of the tech 
samples
(09:23:19 AM) dkulp: Having the build break cause tomcat released a new 
version and removed the old one could be frustrating
(09:23:47 AM) jsdelfino: could be
(09:24:17 AM) jsdelfino: but if the old tomcat is not there anymore, I'd 
ask why would be continue to build with it, as a user of Tuscany I'd be 
confused
(09:24:18 AM) rfeng: is BB the only sampleapp?
(09:24:31 AM) jsdelfino: yes it is, for now, but this list will grow I guess
(09:24:34 AM) rfeng: k
(09:24:35 AM) ant_: can we include it in our download?
(09:24:46 AM) jsdelfino: include what? tomcat?
(09:24:58 AM) ant_: y
(09:25:30 AM) jsdelfino: I think that's what we have decided to do, when 
we said on a previous chat that we were embedding TC, if I understood 
correctly
(09:25:42 AM) rfeng: yes
(09:25:47 AM) ant_: k
(09:25:55 AM) jsdelfino: u guys won't let me get to my question on tech 
samples :)
(09:26:13 AM) jsdelfino: so we moved them under sca/samples, das/samples 
etc.
(09:26:29 AM) jsdelfino: but now you guys move them back to the top 
/samples dir in the distro
(09:26:46 AM) jsdelfino: so I'm confused :)
(09:27:06 AM) rfeng: I guess that's just the way it works in dan's patch
(09:27:14 AM) rfeng: we can adjust it to whatever we like
(09:27:16 AM) jsdelfino: both of you did that :)
(09:27:25 AM) jsdelfino: good, that's my question actually
(09:27:28 AM) jsdelfino: what do we like?
(09:27:42 AM) jsdelfino: <root>/samples? or <root>/sca/samples?
(09:28:00 AM) rfeng: I would like to have samples/sca, samples/sdo, 
samples/das
(09:28:31 AM) ant_: rfeng, where would javascript, groovy, etc go?
(09:28:33 AM) dkulp: That sounds fine by me too.
(09:28:53 AM) kgoodson: +1 from me for that ant
(09:28:53 AM) cr22rc: please keep the form the same or the readme's will 
have to have their links fixed up
(09:29:04 AM) jsdelfino: can u guys vote for A or B or C? - tired of the 
+1 -1 :) A == /samples, B == /sca/samples, C == samples/sca
(09:29:19 AM) kgoodson: C
(09:29:31 AM) jsdelfino: hmm, good point rick
(09:29:57 AM) cr22rc: it's not worth IMO messing around with what we 
have... at least not for this M1
(09:30:07 AM) rfeng: I almost vote for C, but for rick's point, I'm ok 
to stay the same as the build structure
(09:30:08 AM) jsdelfino: any other opinions, A, B, C?
(09:30:25 AM) dkulp: I like C, but I agree about the link issue.
(09:30:42 AM) jsdelfino: I like C too, rick, do we have links cross 
readmes? and what are they?
(09:30:53 AM) kgoodson: ok, in an ideal world C for me,  but happy to be 
pragmatic
(09:31:19 AM) jsdelfino: I understand there can be an issue with the 
link, would like to know exactly what it is? just one link? many links?
(09:31:25 AM) jsdelfino: links sorry
(09:31:32 AM) cr22rc: many
(09:31:45 AM) dkulp: They all have links to the "how to setup" page.
(09:31:58 AM) cr22rc: lets move them in our build then
(09:32:13 AM) cr22rc: it best to keep things in sync IMO
(09:32:15 AM) rfeng: re-structure?
(09:32:25 AM) cr22rc: :-)
(09:32:26 AM) rfeng: agree to sync
(09:32:59 AM) cr22rc: but ... I'd vote if we like C ... lets do it post m1
(09:33:24 AM) jsdelfino: almost convinced, but looks like a lot of work 
to me, and risk of breaking things, can we dig a little more into the 
"many links" issue
(09:33:51 AM) jsdelfino: each sample has a pointer back to the "how to 
setup samples" right? is that the issue?
(09:33:54 AM) cr22rc: why not post M1 restucture
(09:34:21 AM) cr22rc: one there is also link down to the samples (both ways)
(09:34:35 AM) jsdelfino: before we decide when we restructure, I'd like 
to understand why we'd do it
(09:35:00 AM) jsdelfino: and before we get into another link, can we 
verify that the first link is *actually* an issue
(09:35:25 AM) cr22rc: I think have a source that is the same form as 
your distro has a lot of merit
(09:35:37 AM) jsdelfino: my naive view - but maybe I'm missing something 
- and I trust u guys will tell me if I am missing something :) is that 
../../readme.htm will continue to work with both structures...
(09:35:58 AM) jsdelfino: rick, I agree with your last statement too
(09:36:17 AM) cr22rc: so IMO ... post M1 we address
(09:36:42 AM) ant_: why not get it right now?
(09:37:26 AM) rfeng: I guess jsdelfino hints that the change of folder 
order (sca/samples --> samples/sca) doesn't break the links
(09:37:40 AM) jsdelfino: rfeng, thanks for reading my mind
(09:37:41 AM) jsdelfino: :)
(09:37:56 AM) rfeng: rick, can you verify?
(09:38:34 AM) dkulp: I think the only one that will really break is bigbank
(09:39:18 AM) jsdelfino: if we keep one readme per sample category, then 
I don't see a problem with the links
(09:40:21 AM) jsdelfino: my summary for now: we may have some readme 
link problems - maybe - but doesn't look like a big issue for me, I'd 
rather get an intuitive structure for the samples in the distro, i.e. 
option C
(09:40:45 AM) cr22rc: the main one also links down so will that be broken ?
(09:40:52 AM) jsdelfino: I'm also wondering if it's so much work to 
restructure in SVN to be in sync with the distro, I guess that's what 
ant was proposing maybe?
(09:41:07 AM) ant_: yes
(09:41:13 AM) cr22rc: I'm more in favor of that
(09:41:20 AM) jsdelfino: the main one is the only one that would be broken
(09:41:39 AM) jsdelfino: cr22rc, favor of what? keeping the main readme 
broken? or restructuring in SVN?
(09:41:52 AM) cr22rc: restructure
(09:42:07 AM) cr22rc: if C is a must
(09:42:23 AM) cr22rc: are we shipping pom.xml?
(09:42:26 AM) jsdelfino: ok, how much work do you guys think it is? can 
we keep the same ids in the pom.xml? is it just about doing an svn move?
(09:42:28 AM) cr22rc: for maven builds ?
(09:43:03 AM) rfeng: we'll ship pom.xml, right?
(09:43:05 AM) jsdelfino: yes
(09:43:23 AM) jsdelfino: so they need to be right, and work with the 
distro structure...
(09:43:27 AM) cr22rc: do they have dependencies ? ... there are parent
(09:43:41 AM) jsdelfino: I think it's an extremely good point :)
(09:43:59 AM) cr22rc: that tell how to builds ... if we do c and don't 
restruct they'll be hosed too
(09:44:12 AM) jsdelfino: u guys are convincing me that we need the SVN 
struct in sync with the distro struct...
(09:45:45 AM) jsdelfino: can somebody post the restructure in SVN 
proposal to the dev list? or do u guys want to make the decision now on 
the chat, given that we have a good quorum here this morning
(09:45:50 AM) jsdelfino: ?
(09:45:59 AM) rfeng: what will happen if the parent of helloworld become 
samples (or samples/sca)?
(09:46:16 AM) cr22rc: let's get it resolved now
(09:46:29 AM) ant_: +1 to resolve now
(09:46:33 AM) jsdelfino: if we decide here and now, we at least need to 
send a big message to the dev list so that people don't run around these 
moving samples...
(09:46:47 AM) cr22rc: yes
(09:47:08 AM) jsdelfino: ok, I'm now convinced that it's probably 
simpler and healthier to restructure in svn too, my +1 to restructure too
(09:47:17 AM) rfeng: let's assume under java, there will be a "samples" 
folder, then "sca", "sdo", etc?
(09:47:45 AM) jsdelfino: jmarino, jboynes, dkulp, your thoughts?
(09:48:00 AM) dkulp: It will definitely make packaging easier.
(09:48:22 AM) cr22rc: actually I like that more ... I'm looking for 
samples ... ah right on the top
(09:48:53 AM) dkulp: I agree.  One place for samples instead of 
"shopping around" in the tree for them.
(09:49:15 AM) cr22rc: how about  also samples/applications/BB ?
(09:49:33 AM) ant_: what about within samples/sca, how do extensions fit 
in there everything in samples/sca or in subfolders like 
samples/sca/javascript?
(09:50:22 AM) jsdelfino: rick, I'm for keeping the consensus we reached 
on the dev list, /sampleapps
(09:50:28 AM) ant_: or would that be samples/sca/rhino?
(09:50:52 AM) jsdelfino: ant_, maybe for M2, but IMO the flat structure 
we have now if OK for M1
(09:51:11 AM) jsdelfino: we can change later when we get more samples
(09:51:31 AM) rfeng: so we'll have sca/sample-xxxx, sample-yyyy?
(09:52:09 AM) rfeng: I guess rick proposed to rename samples
(09:52:36 AM) jsdelfino: sorry, confused now... too many threads
(09:52:39 AM) cr22rc: mostly for the actifactid ... not forcing it on 
the directory
(09:52:45 AM) rfeng: ok
(09:52:49 AM) rfeng: got it
(09:52:49 AM) ant_: slightly off topic, what is the customerinfo sample 
about?
(09:53:06 AM) jsdelfino: one of the samples we had discussed on wiki
(09:53:13 AM) jsdelfino: creating an SDO out of XSD
(09:53:17 AM) jsdelfino: and using @SDOHelper
(09:53:32 AM) ant_: could it have sdo in the name?
(09:53:38 AM) jsdelfino: and importing an XSD from <import.sdo>
(09:54:34 AM) jsdelfino: ant_, it's gonna be difficult to apply this 
rule everywhere, it also has a little bit of sca, supplychain is not 
called supplychainasync, etc...
(09:55:14 AM) jsdelfino: samples / sca / helloworld
(09:55:25 AM) kgoodson is now known as kgoodson_away
(09:55:36 AM) jsdelfino: and we move things around in SVN to be in sync
(09:55:48 AM) jsdelfino: are people +1 or -1 on that?
(09:56:00 AM) jsdelfino: trying to ping jim to get his thoughts too
(09:56:12 AM) jmarino: sorry in another meeting ...yea I think whatever 
you guys thinks works. I just don't like the samples in the main dev 
checkin but that's another discussion
(09:56:59 AM) ant_: i've got to go to another meeting in a minute
(09:57:24 AM) jsdelfino: good, this restructure will also take the 
samples out of the main build
(09:57:31 AM) cr22rc: +1 restruct
(09:58:00 AM) ant_: was hoping to be here for the 'when is M1 going to 
be' discussion
(09:58:05 AM) jsdelfino: +1 from me
(09:58:59 AM) cr22rc: right .. when?
(09:59:13 AM) zx|work left the room (quit: " Try HydraIRC -> 
http://www.hydrairc.com <-").
(09:59:56 AM) ant_: meeting canceled, can stay now
(10:00:01 AM) rfeng: can we do it ASAP so that I can make sure the dist 
produces the same result?
(10:00:09 AM) jsdelfino: yes
(10:00:18 AM) jsdelfino: rick do u wanna do it?
(10:00:30 AM) cr22rc: resturcture ?
(10:00:35 AM) jsdelfino: yes
(10:00:43 AM) jsdelfino: an svn move
(10:00:52 AM) cr22rc: ok ... can you open  Jira ?
(10:01:08 AM) jsdelfino: sure, just after this chat
(10:01:23 AM) jsdelfino: was trying to parallelize things :)
(10:01:25 AM) cr22rc: ok... I'll move to make #!
(10:02:01 AM) jsdelfino: ok so are we done with the discussion on the 
samples?
(10:02:12 AM) jsdelfino: anything else wrt the samples?
(10:02:41 AM) jsdelfino: are we clear on the struct of distro/lib?
(10:02:42 AM) cr22rc: I'd like to get an answer on when code lock is
(10:03:29 AM) jsdelfino: that's why I'm asking if we're done with the 
distro discussion...
(10:03:49 AM) jsdelfino: any other questions with the distro?
(10:03:50 AM) cr22rc: just to make sure BB stays as it is today?
(10:04:01 AM) jsdelfino: BB stays as it is today
(10:04:09 AM) jsdelfino: hmm no sorry
(10:04:20 AM) jsdelfino: BB should be in /sampleapps / bigbank
(10:04:29 AM) cr22rc: ok
(10:04:32 AM) cr22rc: right
(10:04:34 AM) jsdelfino: means we need to rename samples to sampleapps 
in SVN
(10:04:36 AM) jsdelfino: right?
(10:04:40 AM) cr22rc: I'll do that too
(10:04:50 AM) cr22rc: right
(10:04:59 AM) ant_: i'm confused now
(10:05:10 AM) ant_: where is BB in the samples dir?
(10:05:24 AM) jsdelfino: we had this question on the dev list
(10:05:27 AM) cr22rc: no java/sampleapps
(10:05:40 AM) jsdelfino: in SVN:
(10:05:47 AM) jsdelfino: java / sampleapps / bigbank
(10:06:13 AM) ant_: so we samples and sampleapps. that seems odd to me
(10:06:44 AM) jsdelfino: to me too
(10:06:47 AM) cr22rc: that's why I reproposed sample/applications/bb
(10:06:57 AM) jsdelfino: this just triggered another thought
(10:06:59 AM) ant_: why not just samples/bigbank
(10:07:17 AM) ant_: (will be back to how it was a few weeks ago soon)
(10:07:26 AM) jsdelfino: when we voted for C earlier, samples / sca 
instead of sca / samples
(10:07:56 AM) jsdelfino: we were probably assuming that there was no 
other use for a top level sca directory in the distro
(10:08:18 AM) jsdelfino: will we have top level sca, das, sdo 
directories in the distro?
(10:08:24 AM) rfeng: maybe samples/integration/bb?
(10:08:54 AM) cr22rc: why not samples/applciations/bb
(10:09:10 AM) rfeng: works for me
(10:09:27 AM) rfeng: applications :-)
(10:09:33 AM) cr22rc: yes
(10:09:37 AM) cr22rc: :-)
(10:09:38 AM) jsdelfino: so u guys are now saying something different 
from the discussion on the dev list
(10:10:06 AM) cr22rc: well that was before this proposal came along
(10:10:22 AM) jsdelfino: are we gonna have top level sca, sdo and das 
directories? I think this is a fundamental question
(10:10:39 AM) jsdelfino: I'd start with the lib directory
(10:10:46 AM) rfeng: no, we only have lib, samples, etc
(10:10:50 AM) jsdelfino: let's say somebody just wants sdo, no sca
(10:11:14 AM) rfeng: under lib, we have all the core jars (sca+sdo+das...)
(10:11:17 AM) jsdelfino: should we have sdo/lib, sca/lib, das/lib? or 
just everything in one big lib?
(10:11:36 AM) jsdelfino: rfeng, I know that's what we have in both 
proposals from dan and you
(10:11:45 AM) jsdelfino: but I'm asking a different question
(10:11:55 AM) rfeng: I understand r point
(10:11:56 AM) jsdelfino: what do people want?
(10:12:03 AM) dkulp: Having multiple libs will make running the demos 
harder without some sore of "env" script to set classpaths and such.
(10:12:25 AM) rfeng: right, for M1, probably just one lib
(10:12:42 AM) jsdelfino: dan, what do u think?
(10:12:53 AM) jsdelfino: gonna ping jim again as well...
(10:13:06 AM) dkulp: I aggree, except for celtix and axis2, everything 
else in /lib
(10:13:11 AM) rfeng: yes
(10:13:12 AM) cr22rc: how about a script bat that can copy what your 
need for sdo/sca/das to some other directory
(10:13:29 AM) jsdelfino: jmarino, are u there?
(10:13:34 AM) cr22rc: from the "big" directory
(10:13:45 AM) jsdelfino: we just need 3 mns of your time
(10:15:50 AM) jsdelfino: ok, so far we have: dan+rfeng (everything in 
lib), rick (same + a .bat file), me(open to both, would like input from 
jim as well)
(10:16:57 AM) cr22rc: how hard would it be for the maven assmebly 
package from the big directory to copy out the libs to individual dirs 
mvn assemlbly:sdo mvn assembly:sca ?  just curious
(10:17:07 AM) jsdelfino: looks like jim is not avail.
(10:17:26 AM) dkulp: I would just need a couple new overlay 
sub-packages.   Not hard.
(10:17:40 AM) jsdelfino: I was asking this question because, if we had 
separate dirs then it would also make more sense wrt the samples
(10:17:43 AM) jsdelfino: we would have
(10:17:53 AM) jsdelfino: license, readme, status etc.
(10:17:57 AM) jsdelfino: sca/
(10:17:59 AM) jsdelfino: sdo/
(10:18:03 AM) jsdelfino: das/
(10:18:07 AM) jsdelfino: sampleapps/
(10:18:10 AM) jsdelfino: tomcat/
(10:18:21 AM) jsdelfino: sca/lib
(10:18:23 AM) jsdelfino: sca/samples
(10:18:27 AM) jsdelfino: sdo/lib
(10:18:29 AM) jsdelfino: sdo/samples
(10:18:32 AM) jsdelfino: das/lib
(10:18:35 AM) jsdelfino: das/samples
(10:18:48 AM) jsdelfino: this would be nicely in sync with SVN...
(10:18:52 AM) rfeng: :-)
(10:19:03 AM) jsdelfino: no need to restructure things or goof around 
with the samples again
(10:19:08 AM) rfeng: how do we position sca, sdo and das?
(10:19:15 AM) jsdelfino: plus would address the needs of sdo users for 
example
(10:19:36 AM) rfeng: so sca/lib will have all things from sdo/lib?
(10:19:41 AM) jsdelfino: no
(10:20:02 AM) jsdelfino: sca/lib will have sca stuff
(10:20:10 AM) rfeng: so we have to tell the user sca preq sdo?
(10:20:14 AM) slaws left the room (quit: "Bye").
(10:20:22 AM) Simon_linux left the room.
(10:20:31 AM) jsdelfino: yes
(10:20:41 AM) jsdelfino: dan, ant, rick, any opinions?
(10:20:50 AM) jsdelfino: you can tell me that u don't like it :)
(10:20:51 AM) cr22rc: (confused)  I thought there would be: samples/sca 
samples/sdo etc
(10:21:18 AM) dkulp: I'm just concerned with classpaths and the 
confusions that will cause.
(10:21:36 AM) cr22rc: this is yet another proposal ... right?
(10:21:38 AM) jsdelfino: rick, I'm trying to say that we reached that 
conclusion without really discussing the bigger structure of the distro
(10:21:48 AM) rfeng: in that case, we may need to have bat files to help 
setup the classpath
(10:22:14 AM) fbudinsky 
[n=fbudinsk@CPE0004e2fcf7ef-CM023459906283.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] 
entered the room.
(10:22:34 AM) rfeng: let's see if frank wants to have its own lib :-)
(10:22:48 AM) jsdelfino: dan, you're concerned that users will have to 
specify multiple dirs, sca, sdo and das?
(10:23:09 AM) rfeng: like -Djava.ext.dirs=sdo;sca;das?
(10:23:10 AM) dkulp: I MAY be able to get maven to create manifest 
jars.    We do that for celtix, but it required a bit of trickery.
(10:23:52 AM) jsdelfino: frank, hi, we are discussing the structure of 
the distro
(10:24:06 AM) jsdelfino: do we want separate lib dirs for sca, sdo and das
(10:24:15 AM) jsdelfino: or just one big lib dir
(10:24:27 AM) dkulp: and tools and celtix and axis2.....
(10:24:37 AM) jsdelfino: also the samples, do we have samples/sca, 
samples/sdo etc.
(10:24:46 AM) fbudinsky: hi, well it seems some clients of sdo don't use 
the rest of tuscany, so having a separate lib would be bes
(10:24:49 AM) fbudinsky: t
(10:25:33 AM) dkulp: But would those people grab a tuscany distro jst 
for SDO, or would they just use maven to get it?
(10:25:50 AM) dkulp: Or do we create a "sdo only" distribution....
(10:26:03 AM) jsdelfino: best because it'll be clear which jars they need?
(10:26:14 AM) jsdelfino: or can we just document the list of jars?
(10:26:35 AM) fbudinsky: i think that lots of people don't want to use 
mvn, etc. but just want to pull a built sdo that they can use
(10:26:58 AM) rfeng: so the case is kind of like the Eclipse emf+xsd+sdo
(10:27:20 AM) fbudinsky: maybe if we can just make it easy for them to 
figure out which jars to grab it doesn't matter
(10:27:52 AM) jsdelfino: will u be happy with a a list of JARs in a readme?
(10:27:53 AM) fbudinsky: but if the whole thing is huge, while sdo is 
just a tiny subset, people won't be happy
(10:28:11 AM) rfeng: dan's idea sounds good, maybe have a sdo-only dist
(10:28:31 AM) jsdelfino: yes I like it too
(10:28:46 AM) rfeng: how about das?
(10:28:48 AM) jsdelfino: the sca dist would include everything in one 
big lib
(10:28:53 AM) fbudinsky: sdo-only dist sounds like the right solution 
longer term for sure, but if it's easier to just go with the readme with 
jar list for now, that's ok
(10:28:57 AM) cr22rc: I was thinking  were consider 
http://rafb.net/paste/results/wE2XXR47.html
(10:29:16 AM) rfeng: we can have sca+sdo+das, and sdo-only, and (das-only?)
(10:29:45 AM) fbudinsky: das only would seem to need sdo so it would be 
das+sdo
(10:29:48 AM) dkulp: cr22rc: the problem is you also MUST have 
lib/sca/axis2 and lib/sca/celtix and problable lib/sca/tools
(10:31:13 AM) jsdelfino: I think one of the issues is that there's gonna 
be common dependencies between all three
(10:31:21 AM) jsdelfino: so we either have do dup jars
(10:31:26 AM) jsdelfino: or describe the combinations
(10:31:42 AM) jsdelfino: a mess... I agree with what Dan said before, 
now I thought about it more :)
(10:32:08 AM) jsdelfino: so here's what I suggest:
(10:32:48 AM) jsdelfino: lib/ sca sdo and das jars + dependencies
(10:32:52 AM) jsdelfino: lib/axis2
(10:32:54 AM) jsdelfino: lib/celtix
(10:33:02 AM) jsdelfino: samples/sca
(10:33:06 AM) jsdelfino: samples/sdo
(10:33:11 AM) jsdelfino: samples/das
(10:33:23 AM) jsdelfino: we document the list of jars for sdo and das
(10:33:59 AM) jsdelfino: and we restruct the samples in maven fit this 
structure
(10:34:13 AM) cr22rc: +1
(10:34:22 AM) jsdelfino: and we add to the top
(10:34:34 AM) jsdelfino: tomcat/ a preconfigured tomcat with all of the 
above
(10:34:46 AM) jsdelfino: does that sound reasonable for M1?
(10:34:52 AM) ant_: where's BB?
(10:35:00 AM) jsdelfino: sorry I forgot
(10:35:02 AM) jsdelfino: :)
(10:35:20 AM) jsdelfino: sampleapps/
(10:35:36 AM) cr22rc: +1
(10:36:27 AM) ant_: i'd prefer samples/bigbank, but for the sake of 
moving things along I'm fine with what you said
(10:37:08 AM) jsdelfino: ok :) thanks
(10:37:23 AM) jsdelfino: dan?
(10:37:29 AM) jsdelfino: rfeng?
(10:37:36 AM) rfeng: +1 for M1
(10:38:47 AM) dkulp: +1 for me
(10:39:32 AM) jsdelfino: looks like we have a clear picture of the 
distro now
(10:39:50 AM) jsdelfino: I have to drop off in a moment
(10:40:14 AM) jsdelfino: can we have another chat with everybody 
tomorrow same time?
(10:40:25 AM) ant_: jsdelfino, we need some direction of how long we 
have to keep making code changes
(10:40:43 AM) jsdelfino: yes
(10:40:43 AM) cr22rc: agreed
(10:41:09 AM) jsdelfino: I think at this point no new function should be 
added
(10:41:24 AM) jsdelfino: but I'm still seeing significant issues with 
the runtime
(10:41:25 AM) rfeng left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection 
reset by peer)).
(10:41:33 AM) jsdelfino: I just tried earlier this morning
(10:41:37 AM) cr22rc: +1
(10:41:38 AM) jsdelfino: start tomcat
(10:41:47 AM) jsdelfino: point ur web browser to helloworld
(10:41:48 AM) ant_: and its a fine line btw function and fixing a bug
(10:41:55 AM) jsdelfino: stop the app
(10:41:57 AM) jsdelfino: start it
(10:42:01 AM) jsdelfino: with the tomcat manager
(10:42:04 AM) jsdelfino: boom
(10:42:07 AM) rfeng [n=Raymond@c-24-6-40-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] 
entered the room.
(10:42:07 AM) jsdelfino: doesn't work
(10:42:10 AM) jsdelfino: :)
(10:42:38 AM) jsdelfino: so I suggest the following
(10:42:42 AM) ant_: so from the original release plan i think there was 
going to be an RC tomorrow, sound like thats not going to happen
(10:43:21 AM) jsdelfino: to help draw the line we need to sort out the 
JIRA issues left, categorize M1 or Mx
(10:43:46 AM) haleh left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection 
timed out)).
(10:43:51 AM) jsdelfino: I'll do this in the next few hours
(10:44:04 AM) jsdelfino: you'll have time to review
(10:44:14 AM) ant_: does that mean taking any out that are already set 
at M1?
(10:44:30 AM) jsdelfino: tomorrow morning another IRC to discuss any 
disagreements in the categorization
(10:44:55 AM) jsdelfino: there are some minor M1s that we could easily 
push to Mx
(10:45:25 AM) jsdelfino: so I'll be aggressive pushing to Mx, if you 
guys want something back in M1 just put it back or bring it up to 
tomorrow's IRC
(10:46:11 AM) jsdelfino: when we're left with only a set of issues that 
we think we can document, then we can declare a Candidate
(10:46:20 AM) jsdelfino: for this we need a build of the distro
(10:46:39 AM) jsdelfino: I'm hoping we can get this today, rick, 
raymond, dan, what do you think?
(10:46:57 AM) jsdelfino: and as soon as we get that, all testing should 
be done with this distro build
(10:47:05 AM) jsdelfino: the bottom line is:
(10:47:23 AM) cr22rc: If we start moving stuff in svn is it gonna be 
disruptive ?
(10:47:28 AM) jsdelfino: I think it's more important to have a good 
enough user experience than driving this from a hard date
(10:47:40 AM) jsdelfino: I understand that we want to have something by 
Javaone
(10:47:48 AM) jsdelfino: and that the Javaone conference is not moving :)
(10:48:02 AM) jsdelfino: but we need to be all comfortable with the set 
of remaining issues
(10:48:05 AM) jsdelfino: does that make sense?
(10:48:26 AM) cr22rc: maybe before we do this we should take an svn tag
(10:48:40 AM) ant_: the hard date is JavaOne minus the minimum of a 72 
hour incubator PMC vote, we're almost missing that
(10:48:57 AM) jsdelfino: we don't need an svn tag before doing that, you 
can always go back with svn
(10:49:22 AM) jsdelfino: ant_, yes I agree there's a risk we miss that
(10:49:38 AM) jsdelfino: we may have to release during JavaOne
(10:49:50 AM) ant_: or we could just let it slip and do a 'better' 
release a bit later
(10:50:15 AM) jsdelfino: I'd like to try as much as we can
(10:50:40 AM) cr22rc: whether we miss or not we need a release ... 
building this from scratch is real pain with maven
(10:50:41 AM) ant_: sure. i'm just trying to get a feel for what people 
think
(10:50:59 AM) ant_: there's still a ton of things to do, doc for eg
(10:51:00 AM) jsdelfino: at least if we have this release, we have 
something that our community can look at
(10:51:09 AM) jsdelfino: from a diff perspective
(10:51:21 AM) jsdelfino: and give feedback 
(10:51:21 AM) cr22rc: that's my point
(10:51:30 AM) ant_: and they will come and look if we announce an M1, so 
it would be better if it was good
(10:51:32 AM) jsdelfino: try it out
(10:51:37 AM) jsdelfino: right :)
(10:52:12 AM) jsdelfino: so I think the key is to categorize all the 
issues we recently found and see what we document, and what we really 
really want to fix
(10:52:35 AM) jsdelfino: and the other is: user experience with our 
distro build
(10:53:23 AM) jsdelfino: so let's have the chat tomorrow on that sole 
subject, go through the issues, have a plan to document them, drop the 
function out of the release, or continue to fix them
(10:53:34 AM) jsdelfino: is that ok? same time? same place?
(10:53:49 AM) cr22rc: same problems ? :-)
(10:54:30 AM) cr22rc: +1
(10:54:30 AM) jsdelfino: until then, priorities are: distro build, 
fixing the "in your face" JIRAs, and not introducing any unncessary 
destabilization
(10:54:55 AM) jsdelfino: since we're all working on this I don't think 
we need to tag or branch at this point
(10:55:22 AM) jsdelfino: are you guys comfortable with that? is there 
anything we can do better that will help us get something nice for 
Javaone? please speak up
(10:56:05 AM) jmarino left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection 
reset by peer)).
(10:56:19 AM) jsdelfino: ant? dan?
(10:56:33 AM) cr22rc: if we can accomplish this and its stable will have 
a good milestone story ... this isn't 1.0
(10:57:03 AM) jsdelfino: yes, I think we're getting really really close
(10:57:23 AM) ant_: i'm fine with another IRC tomorrow, though I think 
some of us have a meeting clash, and I've another if it goes on a long time
(10:57:36 AM) jsdelfino: I've been watching the jiras with a dashboard 
and I can tell that the numbers are getting down nicely
(10:57:43 AM) pombreda left the room.
(10:58:24 AM) jsdelfino: ok I'll send an email to the dev list, the IRC 
will probably go for 2 hours anyway :) so we'll have time to catch up...
(10:58:45 AM) jsdelfino: thank you all, I'll be offline for about an 
hour then back on IRC later
(10:58:49 AM) jsdelfino: tty tomorrow
 

-- 
Jean-Sebastien