Use of copyrighted images with permission

[Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>]

Hello;

Probably everybody out there knows the BSD beastie
image:
http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/mainpage/images.html

This image is copyrighted by Kirk Mckusick:
http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/mainpage/copyright.html

And I have his permission to use it for the AOO FreeBSD
port (He even sent me a nicer link to the image). Taking
into account the note in his copyright statement about
appropriate use, this is not something we are likely to
get under an SGA, nor would I ask for it.

Can I go ahead and use this in Apache OO for the FreeBSD
port only or should I ask legal@?

cheers,

Pedro.

Re: Use of copyrighted images with permission

[Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>]

Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity.
On Nov 20, 2011 6:49 AM, "Daniel Shahaf" <d....@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
>
> On Saturday, November 19, 2011 11:50 PM, "Ross Gardler" <
rgardler@opendirective.com> wrote:
> > ASF logo's are available under the Apache licence but they are also
> > trademarks. People can reuse them just like our code. They can modify
> > them, but only in conformance with the trademark policy.
>
> Not sure that's accurate; I'm going to just say that people can use,
> reuse, and make derivative works of the logos, subject to the license
> they are under and to ASF's trademarks.

I'm not sure what you see as different in our two statements, so I'm going
to assume we agree ;-)

Ross

Re: Use of copyrighted images with permission

[Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>]

On Saturday, November 19, 2011 11:50 PM, "Ross Gardler" <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> ASF logo's are available under the Apache licence but they are also
> trademarks. People can reuse them just like our code. They can modify
> them, but only in conformance with the trademark policy.

Not sure that's accurate; I'm going to just say that people can use,
reuse, and make derivative works of the logos, subject to the license
they are under and to ASF's trademarks.

Re: Use of copyrighted images with permission

[Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>]

Hi Ross;

--- On Sat, 11/19/11, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:

> >
> > You need permission for other uses, just like the ASF
> logo.
> 
> ASF logo's are available under the Apache licence but they
> are also trademarks. People can reuse them just like our
> code. They can modify them, but only in conformance with
> the trademark policy.
>

I see.. the classic BSD "beastie" is not a trademark.

FreeBSD has also a trademarked logo but that is even more
restricted.

> We can't ship something that limits downstream users to
> "personal use". I feel confident that legal-discuss would
> say "no", but IANAL and I don't understand the full
> details so don't take this as the final word.

"No" is also an answer :).

> If you feel I am missing something then legal-discuss
> should be consulted.
> 

It's OK, I can do the configuration workarounds that I
mentioned earlier.

Thanks!

Pedro.

Re: Use of copyrighted images with permission

[Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>]

On 19 November 2011 21:03, Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> --- On Sat, 11/19/11, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>>
>> So you have his permission to use it.  But does Apache
>> have his permission?  And what about downstream
>> consumers?  Although it is unlikely, we need to consider
>> the possibility that someone else takes
>> the BSD port and customizes it and then redistributes
>> it.  Would they have permission to copy the logo?
>>
>
> That's exactly the issue. I will put it this way: NetBSD
> and OpenBSD can obviously use it. If IBM or RedOffice wants
> to use it because they claim they support any BSD/unix,
> even through linux binaries, that's OK too.
>
> What is unacceptable is vandalizing the image like having
> "beastie" doing obscene things or violently killing a
> penguin. (Yes those images exist).
>
> The Apache logos are also copyrighted and I am sure similar
> abuses are not permitted. You cannot write books about indians
> and cowboys and put the ASF logo on it ... I think.
>
>> The license also says it can be used for "personal
>> use".  I don't think that is compatible with the ALv2.
>>
>
> You need permission for other uses, just like the ASF logo.

ASF logo's are available under the Apache licence but they are also
trademarks. People can reuse them just like our code. They can modify
them, but only in conformance with the trademark policy.

We can't ship something that limits downstream users to "personal
use". I feel confident that legal-discuss would say "no", but IANAL
and I don't understand the full details so don't take this as the
final word. If you feel I am missing something then legal-discuss
should be consulted.

Ross

Re: Use of copyrighted images with permission

[Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>]

--- On Sat, 11/19/11, Rob Weir wrote:

> 
> So you have his permission to use it.  But does Apache
> have his permission?  And what about downstream
> consumers?  Although it is unlikely, we need to consider
> the possibility that someone else takes
> the BSD port and customizes it and then redistributes
> it.  Would they have permission to copy the logo?
> 

That's exactly the issue. I will put it this way: NetBSD
and OpenBSD can obviously use it. If IBM or RedOffice wants
to use it because they claim they support any BSD/unix,
even through linux binaries, that's OK too.

What is unacceptable is vandalizing the image like having
"beastie" doing obscene things or violently killing a
penguin. (Yes those images exist).

The Apache logos are also copyrighted and I am sure similar
abuses are not permitted. You cannot write books about indians
and cowboys and put the ASF logo on it ... I think.

> The license also says it can be used for "personal
> use".  I don't think that is compatible with the ALv2.
> 

You need permission for other uses, just like the ASF logo.

> > Can I go ahead and use this in Apache OO for the
> > FreeBSD port only or should I ask legal@?
> >
> 
> I'm not sure we've discussed this before:  What
> exactly do you think the relationship of the
> BSD port will be to the AOO project?

Just like the relationship with Apache httpd or any
other Apache project. We have people that work on
both.

> In particular, do you want to eventually have an official
> Apache release of the BSD binaries, made available on
> the Apache mirrors?  Or were you thinking of building
> and release the BSD port yourself, via
> another website?
>

We have been shipping OpenOffice.org, built directly
from the source provided by openoffice.org for a
long time. I don't think SUN/Oracle ever considered
shipping FreeBSD binaries, I have no idea if
the Podling is considering releasing them but users
probably prefer the pre-packaged releases the FreeBSD
project makes anyways as these share dependencies from
other packages and we do our own testing and QA.

> If you release your own BSD port, based on the Apache
> releases, then you have more flexibility to bundle
> other software with it.  Maybe something like "BSD
> Office, powered by Apache OpenOffice"?
> 

No, our port is plain OOo, we don't change the brand.
The changes would be minimal: just add a small beastie
in a corner.

The existing OOo has a branding layer so I wanted to
use it instead of reinventing the wheel.

> If you want to have the BSD port released by Apache, then I
> think you'll want to ask legal-discuss@ to review and classify
> that license.
> 

I don't have a license, I only have permission ;-). I guess
I could use the 4 clause BSD license, which is permitted,
but since that doesn't put a limit on possible abuses that
Kirk may want to avoid, what I can do is include the
modified logos only in the FreeBSD port/package by using:

--with-intro-bitmaps=/path/my_ooo_intro.bmp
--with-about-bitmaps=/path/my_ooo_about.bmp

cheers,

Pedro.

Re: Use of copyrighted images with permission

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hello;
>
> Probably everybody out there knows the BSD beastie
> image:
> http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/mainpage/images.html
>
> This image is copyrighted by Kirk Mckusick:
> http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/mainpage/copyright.html
>
> And I have his permission to use it for the AOO FreeBSD
> port (He even sent me a nicer link to the image). Taking
> into account the note in his copyright statement about
> appropriate use, this is not something we are likely to
> get under an SGA, nor would I ask for it.
>

So you have his permission to use it.  But does Apache have his
permission?  And what about downstream consumers?  Although it is
unlikely, we need to consider the possibility that someone else takes
the BSD port and customizes it and then redistributes it.  Would they
have permission to copy the logo?

The license also says it can be used for "personal use".  I don't
think that is compatible with the ALv2.

> Can I go ahead and use this in Apache OO for the FreeBSD
> port only or should I ask legal@?
>

I'm not sure we've discussed this before:  What exactly do you think
the relationship of the BSD port will be to the AOO project?  In
particular, do you want to eventually have an official Apache release
of the BSD binaries, made available on the Apache mirrors?  Or were
you thinking of building and release the BSD port yourself, via
another website?

If you release your own BSD port, based on the Apache releases, then
you have more flexibility to bundle other software with it.  Maybe
something like "BSD Office, powered by Apache OpenOffice"?

If you want to have the BSD port released by Apache, then I think
you'll want to ask legal-discuss@ to review and classify that license.

-Rob

> cheers,
>
> Pedro.
>