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Posted to user@lenya.apache.org by Geoff Deering <gd...@acslink.net.au> on 2003/06/25 02:14:00 UTC
Newbie Questions on Apache/Cocoon/Lenya
Hi all,
I have been in web development since 95, and want to test out Lenya for CMS
solutions. It seems to be about the best model for data and publishing out
there to me. I have tracked it for a while as Wyona (while I did other
things), now I need to implement it. I have two Cocoon books, which I am
about to read; Cocoon 2 Programming and Cocoon: Building XML Applications.
The instructions on the main web site I must say are more helpful and
clearer than most, but I have still hit a few dead ends. These have been
expressed in postings to this list over the last 12 hours or so since I
joined.
I don't know what's happening in the Lenya/Cocoon community as a whole, and
I would expect everyone is quite busy, and this will probably escalate as
time goes by and Coccon/Lenya interests pickups up. There is a need to
document important events, changes, and Lenya as a whole, and where it fits
in to the CMS/XML world. I'm offering to contribute on this, especially as
I am going through this whole process now as a newbie, it might help update
and fill out the present documentation. I guess this is what
http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp is for?
I am trying to install it on Win2000 (call me a fool, but I guess it should,
I can run Tomcat no problems), and I also want to install it on Debian (my
Debian box does need a lot of upgrading), and maybe Redhat (but I always run
into RPM Dependency Hell and do not have the patience or expertise to
preserver). Maybe even other flavours of Unix. Still, I may be able to
contribute to the documentation for the not so technically minded and
proficient. I would expect that this section of the community may be growing
and needs to be addressed. Any suggestions?
I got to the stage of the installation on Win2000 where I needed to download
Lenya, but as Albi Redman just pointed out,
http://cvs.wyona.org/nightly-builds/ was empty. This left me searching all
over the place. Finally I have found
http://www.apache.org/dist/cocoon/lenya/ and as it is under the
Apache/Cocoon domain, I would expect it to be more relevant than being
hosted over at wyona when Lenya's new home is at Apache/Cocoon. Can anyone
resolve what is going on here and if so update the main Lenya web site to
point to the current builds.
The CVS instructions at Lenya.org (http://lenya.org/installation/cvs.html)
are different to Apache/Cocoon/Lenya. Maybe there is a need to sort all
this out and put in server redirects to the current pages?
Where does Forrest fit into the Apache/Cocoon/Lenya map (briefly)?
For those of use reading and using Cocoon, just what should we understand
about Lenya, and how it works and interfaces with Cocoon, so that we
understand the various components of the architecture? Much the same
questions Dung Ta Quang has just posted. If I am just looking at Cocoon,
what should I understand Lenya addresses?
The Wyona Blog (http://blog.wyona.com/) still looks recent. Is it an active
project? What about the blogs over at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/
Thanks
Geoff Deering
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Re: Newbie Questions on Apache/Cocoon/Lenya
Posted by Alex McLintock <al...@owal.co.uk>.
At 10:38 25/06/03 +0200, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
If you want to use an existing publication, you will have to be familiar
>with the sitemap concept, subsitemap mounting and the basic generators,
>transformers, and actions. Flowscript, XSP and blocks are not important.
I've done this and am writing it up.
>If you want to implement Lenya CMS functions (e.g., add Lenya menu items
>with special functionality), you will have to look at the Lenya API
>and should have basic knowledge of XSP.
And that is where I need to learn more.
Alex
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RE: Newbie Questions on Apache/Cocoon/Lenya
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
>>
The big problem that I
feel most CMSs cannot tackle, is taking user input, especially from WYSIWYG
editors, and storing the data in an intelligent structure that is a valid
grammar and can render documents according to various targets.
<<
in that case, bitflux editor and xopus (both integrated) are for you.
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RE: Newbie Questions on Apache/Cocoon/Lenya
Posted by Geoff Deering <gd...@acslink.net.au>.
Thanks Andreas
Just give me time to get up to speed and learn a bit and I'll try and at
least help with the documentation. My Java/J2EE is basic and rusty. Will
be a while before I join the developers group or offer anything there.
I'm basically coming at this from a background of Web Accessibility and have
always tried to produce valid markup. Cocoon is attractive for many
reasons, and have known it's there since about 99. The big problem that I
feel most CMSs cannot tackle, is taking user input, especially from WYSIWYG
editors, and storing the data in an intelligent structure that is a valid
grammar and can render documents according to various targets.
Hi Geoff,
just a few answers:
Geoff Deering wrote:
> There is a need to
> document important events, changes, and Lenya as a whole, and where it
fits
> in to the CMS/XML world. I'm offering to contribute on this,
Great!
> especially as
> I am going through this whole process now as a newbie, it might help
update
> and fill out the present documentation. I guess this is what
> http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp is for?
Yes, and we are using it quite frequently now.
The starting point for Lenya is
http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=Lenya
> I am trying to install it on Win2000 (call me a fool, but I guess it
should,
> I can run Tomcat no problems),
Three of the Wyona developers are using Windows XP :)
> Where does Forrest fit into the Apache/Cocoon/Lenya map (briefly)?
We took a snapshot of Forrest and turned it into a Lenya publication
for our website and documentation. Basically it is a subset of the
Forrest webapp with some Lenya-specific features.
cocoon.apache.org/lenya is generated using command-line Forrest from
this publication.
There was the idea to create a Forrest build target to construct a
Lenya publication template, but nobody ever took the time to
implement it. I still think it would be a great thing.
> For those of use reading and using Cocoon, just what should we understand
> about Lenya, and how it works and interfaces with Cocoon, so that we
> understand the various components of the architecture? Much the same
> questions Dung Ta Quang has just posted. If I am just looking at Cocoon,
> what should I understand Lenya addresses?
I don't think we can point to a certain "subset" of Cocoon here ...
If you want to use an existing publication, you will have to be familiar
with the sitemap concept, subsitemap mounting and the basic generators,
transformers, and actions. Flowscript, XSP and blocks are not important.
If you want to implement Lenya CMS functions (e.g., add Lenya menu items
with special functionality), you will have to look at the Lenya API
and should have basic knowledge of XSP.
Andreas
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Re: Newbie Questions on Apache/Cocoon/Lenya
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Hi Geoff,
just a few answers:
Geoff Deering wrote:
> There is a need to
> document important events, changes, and Lenya as a whole, and where it fits
> in to the CMS/XML world. I'm offering to contribute on this,
Great!
> especially as
> I am going through this whole process now as a newbie, it might help update
> and fill out the present documentation. I guess this is what
> http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp is for?
Yes, and we are using it quite frequently now.
The starting point for Lenya is
http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=Lenya
> I am trying to install it on Win2000 (call me a fool, but I guess it should,
> I can run Tomcat no problems),
Three of the Wyona developers are using Windows XP :)
> Where does Forrest fit into the Apache/Cocoon/Lenya map (briefly)?
We took a snapshot of Forrest and turned it into a Lenya publication
for our website and documentation. Basically it is a subset of the
Forrest webapp with some Lenya-specific features.
cocoon.apache.org/lenya is generated using command-line Forrest from
this publication.
There was the idea to create a Forrest build target to construct a
Lenya publication template, but nobody ever took the time to
implement it. I still think it would be a great thing.
> For those of use reading and using Cocoon, just what should we understand
> about Lenya, and how it works and interfaces with Cocoon, so that we
> understand the various components of the architecture? Much the same
> questions Dung Ta Quang has just posted. If I am just looking at Cocoon,
> what should I understand Lenya addresses?
I don't think we can point to a certain "subset" of Cocoon here ...
If you want to use an existing publication, you will have to be familiar
with the sitemap concept, subsitemap mounting and the basic generators,
transformers, and actions. Flowscript, XSP and blocks are not important.
If you want to implement Lenya CMS functions (e.g., add Lenya menu items
with special functionality), you will have to look at the Lenya API
and should have basic knowledge of XSP.
Andreas
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RE: Newbie Questions on Apache/Cocoon/Lenya
Posted by Geoff Deering <gd...@acslink.net.au>.
Thanks for that Christian. I'll work through my Cocoon books and docs
first.
Geoff
-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Egli [mailto:christian.egli@wyona.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 8:26 PM
To: lenya-user@cocoon.apache.org
Subject: Re: Newbie Questions on Apache/Cocoon/Lenya
"Geoff Deering" <gd...@acslink.net.au> writes:
> Hi all,
Hi Geoff
Some questions have been answered by Andreas already.
> I have been in web development since 95, and want to test out Lenya for
CMS
> solutions. It seems to be about the best model for data and publishing
out
> there to me. I have tracked it for a while as Wyona (while I did other
> things), now I need to implement it. I have two Cocoon books, which I am
> about to read; Cocoon 2 Programming and Cocoon: Building XML Applications.
It's advantageous to have some knowledge of Cocoon when implementing a
Lenya site.
> I don't know what's happening in the Lenya/Cocoon community as a whole,
and
> I would expect everyone is quite busy, and this will probably escalate as
> time goes by and Coccon/Lenya interests pickups up. There is a need to
> document important events, changes, and Lenya as a whole, and where it
fits
> in to the CMS/XML world. I'm offering to contribute on this, especially
as
> I am going through this whole process now as a newbie, it might help
update
> and fill out the present documentation. I guess this is what
> http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp is for?
Yes, as Andreas said start at
http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=Lenya. Other people are contributing
as well.
> and I also want to install it on Debian (my Debian box does need a
> lot of upgrading), I would expect that this section of the community
> may be growing and needs to be addressed. Any suggestions?
Yes, I'm running Lenya on Debian Woody. It would be nice to have some
installation description.
>
> I got to the stage of the installation on Win2000 where I needed to
> download Lenya, but as Albi Redman just pointed out,
> http://cvs.wyona.org/nightly-builds/ was empty. This left me
> searching all over the place. Finally I have found
> http://www.apache.org/dist/cocoon/lenya/ and as it is under the
> Apache/Cocoon domain, I would expect it to be more relevant than
> being hosted over at wyona when Lenya's new home is at
> Apache/Cocoon. Can anyone resolve what is going on here and if so
> update the main Lenya web site to point to the current builds.
Generally the http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/ location should the
canonical place for anything Lenya related. If some things are still
in other places it is an artifact from the migration and should be
fixed. As far as I know Michi is working on setting up nightly
snapshots on http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/.
> The CVS instructions at Lenya.org (http://lenya.org/installation/cvs.html)
> are different to Apache/Cocoon/Lenya. Maybe there is a need to sort all
> this out and put in server redirects to the current pages?
As I said http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/ is the canonical location.
--
Christian Egli christian.egli@wyona.com +41 1 272 9161
Wyona AG, Hardstrasse 219, CH-8005 Zurich
Open Source CMS http://www.wyona.org http://www.wyona.com
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Re: Newbie Questions on Apache/Cocoon/Lenya
Posted by Christian Egli <ch...@wyona.com>.
"Geoff Deering" <gd...@acslink.net.au> writes:
> Hi all,
Hi Geoff
Some questions have been answered by Andreas already.
> I have been in web development since 95, and want to test out Lenya for CMS
> solutions. It seems to be about the best model for data and publishing out
> there to me. I have tracked it for a while as Wyona (while I did other
> things), now I need to implement it. I have two Cocoon books, which I am
> about to read; Cocoon 2 Programming and Cocoon: Building XML Applications.
It's advantageous to have some knowledge of Cocoon when implementing a
Lenya site.
> I don't know what's happening in the Lenya/Cocoon community as a whole, and
> I would expect everyone is quite busy, and this will probably escalate as
> time goes by and Coccon/Lenya interests pickups up. There is a need to
> document important events, changes, and Lenya as a whole, and where it fits
> in to the CMS/XML world. I'm offering to contribute on this, especially as
> I am going through this whole process now as a newbie, it might help update
> and fill out the present documentation. I guess this is what
> http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp is for?
Yes, as Andreas said start at
http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=Lenya. Other people are contributing as well.
> and I also want to install it on Debian (my Debian box does need a
> lot of upgrading), I would expect that this section of the community
> may be growing and needs to be addressed. Any suggestions?
Yes, I'm running Lenya on Debian Woody. It would be nice to have some
installation description.
>
> I got to the stage of the installation on Win2000 where I needed to
> download Lenya, but as Albi Redman just pointed out,
> http://cvs.wyona.org/nightly-builds/ was empty. This left me
> searching all over the place. Finally I have found
> http://www.apache.org/dist/cocoon/lenya/ and as it is under the
> Apache/Cocoon domain, I would expect it to be more relevant than
> being hosted over at wyona when Lenya's new home is at
> Apache/Cocoon. Can anyone resolve what is going on here and if so
> update the main Lenya web site to point to the current builds.
Generally the http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/ location should the
canonical place for anything Lenya related. If some things are still
in other places it is an artifact from the migration and should be
fixed. As far as I know Michi is working on setting up nightly
snapshots on http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/.
> The CVS instructions at Lenya.org (http://lenya.org/installation/cvs.html)
> are different to Apache/Cocoon/Lenya. Maybe there is a need to sort all
> this out and put in server redirects to the current pages?
As I said http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/ is the canonical location.
--
Christian Egli christian.egli@wyona.com +41 1 272 9161
Wyona AG, Hardstrasse 219, CH-8005 Zurich
Open Source CMS http://www.wyona.org http://www.wyona.com
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Re: Newbie Questions on Apache/Cocoon/Lenya
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@apache.org>.
Alex McLintock wrote:
<snip />
>
>
>> The Wyona Blog (http://blog.wyona.com/) still looks recent. Is it an
>> active
>> project?
It's based on moveable type ;-)
What about the blogs over at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/
>
>
>
> I think the blog was probably created in order to demonstrate that you
> *could* build a blog
more than a year ago I started the "forum" publication
http://demo.wyona.org/lenya/forum/introduction.html
in order to build a multiuser blogger like publication based on Lenya,
which is similar to Slash, but I got sidetracked.
In still believe that having a "blogger" like publication based on Lenya
would be great, because it would provide something simple out of the box
and help people to get into Lenya ...
I am still looking for some spare time to refactor it ...
Thanks
Michael
> with Lenya - but don't know if it is still up to date.
>
> Alex
>
>
>
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>
>
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RE: Newbie Questions on Apache/Cocoon/Lenya
Posted by Geoff Deering <gd...@acslink.net.au>.
I think the developers have too high an expectation of users. They seem to
think that everyone knows
what features are in a CMS and what are in Lenya. Simple explanations of
what Lenya is and does are required.
I think this is why you need a broad community. Often good products need
someone to bridge the gap with good documentation that comes from a sound
technical understanding but can address all levels of users. Also needs
case where people who are not 100% back end developers, but maybe more
information architects or content managers to be able to use the product.
I've noticed for instance the frustration over at the Moveable Type Forum.
It's not a bad manual, or anything, but it seems every type of CMS (Blogs)
have their own jargon, and the documentation is not 100% clear. It's not
bad, but it is very Bloggist. It initially had me scratching my head, but a
few helping hands, light shown, made the right associations and away you go.
A lot of products are like this, and it's also relevant to their success and
failure.
Lenya is a bunch of technologies based around Cocoon. It essentially runs a
number of Cocoon sites
most notably a live version of a site and a draft version of the site. It
allows for easier incorporation
of web based XML editors.
It aims to provide many of the features that you will see in commercial
CMS's but are missing from
plain vanilla Cocoon, workflow, authentication, viewing of draft documents,
approval of documents by editors,
version control, and so on.
Great
>The Wyona Blog (http://blog.wyona.com/) still looks recent. Is it an
active
>project? What about the blogs over at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/
I think the blog was probably created in order to demonstrate that you
*could* build a blog
with Lenya - but don't know if it is still up to date.
Well both of them look to be running Moveable Type not anything Cocoon
oriented. I did see Cocoblog over at sourceforge.net, a Cocoon blog. Seems
abandon.
Thanks
Geoff
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Re: Newbie Questions on Apache/Cocoon/Lenya
Posted by Alex McLintock <al...@owal.co.uk>.
At 10:14 25/06/03 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I have been in web development since 95, and want to test out Lenya for CMS
>solutions.
Me too.
> It seems to be about the best model for data and publishing out
>there to me. I have tracked it for a while as Wyona (while I did other
>things), now I need to implement it. I have two Cocoon books, which I am
>about to read; Cocoon 2 Programming and Cocoon: Building XML Applications.
Me too. Except I read them already.
>I don't know what's happening in the Lenya/Cocoon community as a whole, and
"We" are still at the stage where the developers are the only ones who know
anything about the system
and we are trying to improve that fact. (I am not one of the developers -
just someone like you with
a tiny bit more experience)
>http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp is for?
Absolutely. Go for it. Document your experiences as a new user. In theory I
am a committer in order to help with documentation but I expect I have
forgotten my username/password.
>I am trying to install it on Win2000 (call me a fool, but I guess it should,
>I can run Tomcat no problems),
I am currently trying to convert a Cocoon site into a Lenya site using
Win98 on my laptop!!!
(see the current draft at http://www.gynae.uk.com/draft/ )
>and needs to be addressed. Any suggestions?
I think the developers have too high an expectation of users. They seem to
think that everyone knows
what features are in a CMS and what are in Lenya. Simple explanations of
what Lenya is and does are required.
>For those of use reading and using Cocoon, just what should we understand
>about Lenya, and how it works and interfaces with Cocoon, so that we
>understand the various components of the architecture? Much the same
>questions Dung Ta Quang has just posted. If I am just looking at Cocoon,
>what should I understand Lenya addresses?
Lenya is a bunch of technologies based around Cocoon. It essentially runs a
number of Cocoon sites
most notably a live version of a site and a draft version of the site. It
allows for easier incorporation
of web based XML editors.
It aims to provide many of the features that you will see in commercial
CMS's but are missing from
plain vanilla Cocoon, workflow, authentication, viewing of draft documents,
approval of documents by editors,
version control, and so on.
Whether it achieves them or not is another matter. :-)
>The Wyona Blog (http://blog.wyona.com/) still looks recent. Is it an active
>project? What about the blogs over at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/
I think the blog was probably created in order to demonstrate that you
*could* build a blog
with Lenya - but don't know if it is still up to date.
Alex
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