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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org> on 2005/04/15 11:07:57 UTC
Daisy as a docs editor (was Re: [CocoonInAction] Opening announce)
[Cross posted to Forrest-Dev for obvious reasons]
Steven Noels wrote:
> On 15 Apr 2005, at 00:09, Linden H van der (MI) wrote:
>
>> If someone would offer a Cocoon hosting or Daisy hosting for the
>> project, I personnaly be happy to move the content there.
>
>
> Stay tuned.
Interesting, that is my response too.
I'm about to go away for nearly a week so cannot participate in any
discussion. However, since Steven clearly has some plans in this area I
may as well mention my own - which I hope will be compatible.
I am using Daisy internally and am building a plugin for Forrest that
allows users to include Daisy pages in their Forrest sites. The current
status of the plugin is that it includes the text of documents from
multiple repositories. It needs some URL rewriting to make things like
images work. I will commit what I have to the Forrest whiteboard area in
case anyone wants to have a play. I intend to finish this after Forrest
has released 0.7 (we're working on the final leg of that release right now).
Why is this significant?
If Steven is going to be able to source/offer Cocoon hosting, with a
Daisy Wiki then we get some pretty powerful options, that compliment the
proposal at
http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/CocoonDocumentationSystemSUMMARY very well:
Daisy Wiki is used as the document creation/editing tool. Daisy provides
a basic edit/review/publish workflow so quality control remains the
domain of committers.
Forrest is used to generate the site, but rather than having a separate
repository via SVN it works directly with the Daisy repository using the
new plugin. The plugin can be set to always retrieve the current live
page in the daisy repository, i.e. the one that has been approved for
publication.
This means that the Daisy Wiki will make the alpha docs available,
whilst the cocoon site will show the published docs.
A further benefit of this two phased publication approach is that we can
avoid the unstructured navigation of an evolving wiki site. The idea of
the Forrest plugin is that you can have a separate site definition from
that defined in the daisy repository. Consequently the cocoon site can
ignore internal documents (such as the one above about the documentation
system) and instead focus on docs interested to users and potential users.
It would also be possible to have a separate site organisation for
developers, marketeers, users, committers etc. etc. All documents would
come from the same central repository, we just maintain a different
forrest site.xml file for each of the sites.
Note - there would have to be some work to handle links from pages that
are in Daisy, but not yet published on the main site. I haven't thought
about how to handle those yet, perhaps point them at a holding page
explaining the document is an alpha document, then providing a link to
the daisy wiki.
Anyway, I'll catch up on any discussion when I come back, or I'll just
let you know when the plugin is complete.
Ross
Re: Daisy as a docs editor (was Re: [CocoonInAction] Opening announce)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 15 Apr 2005, at 11:12, Upayavira wrote:
> Now, I would really rather see the daisy app run on Apache hardware.
Me too, from previous experience. That said, Daisy is up for grabs so
anyone can give it a spin. It's even AL-licensed unlike some other
collaboration Wiki/CMSes out there. ;)
We _are_ planning to come up with a hosting offer somewhere this year,
but that will be a commercial service / marketing outpost.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: Daisy as a docs editor (was Re: [CocoonInAction] Opening announce)
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@upaya.co.uk>.
Ross Gardler wrote:
> [Cross posted to Forrest-Dev for obvious reasons]
>
> Steven Noels wrote:
>
>> On 15 Apr 2005, at 00:09, Linden H van der (MI) wrote:
>>
>>> If someone would offer a Cocoon hosting or Daisy hosting for the
>>> project, I personnaly be happy to move the content there.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stay tuned.
>
>
> Interesting, that is my response too.
>
> I'm about to go away for nearly a week so cannot participate in any
> discussion. However, since Steven clearly has some plans in this area I
> may as well mention my own - which I hope will be compatible.
>
> I am using Daisy internally and am building a plugin for Forrest that
> allows users to include Daisy pages in their Forrest sites. The current
> status of the plugin is that it includes the text of documents from
> multiple repositories. It needs some URL rewriting to make things like
> images work. I will commit what I have to the Forrest whiteboard area in
> case anyone wants to have a play. I intend to finish this after Forrest
> has released 0.7 (we're working on the final leg of that release right
> now).
>
> Why is this significant?
>
> If Steven is going to be able to source/offer Cocoon hosting, with a
> Daisy Wiki then we get some pretty powerful options, that compliment the
> proposal at
> http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/CocoonDocumentationSystemSUMMARY very well:
>
> Daisy Wiki is used as the document creation/editing tool. Daisy provides
> a basic edit/review/publish workflow so quality control remains the
> domain of committers.
>
> Forrest is used to generate the site, but rather than having a separate
> repository via SVN it works directly with the Daisy repository using the
> new plugin. The plugin can be set to always retrieve the current live
> page in the daisy repository, i.e. the one that has been approved for
> publication.
>
> This means that the Daisy Wiki will make the alpha docs available,
> whilst the cocoon site will show the published docs.
>
> A further benefit of this two phased publication approach is that we can
> avoid the unstructured navigation of an evolving wiki site. The idea of
> the Forrest plugin is that you can have a separate site definition from
> that defined in the daisy repository. Consequently the cocoon site can
> ignore internal documents (such as the one above about the documentation
> system) and instead focus on docs interested to users and potential users.
>
> It would also be possible to have a separate site organisation for
> developers, marketeers, users, committers etc. etc. All documents would
> come from the same central repository, we just maintain a different
> forrest site.xml file for each of the sites.
>
> Note - there would have to be some work to handle links from pages that
> are in Daisy, but not yet published on the main site. I haven't thought
> about how to handle those yet, perhaps point them at a holding page
> explaining the document is an alpha document, then providing a link to
> the daisy wiki.
>
> Anyway, I'll catch up on any discussion when I come back, or I'll just
> let you know when the plugin is complete.
This is interesting, and could make doc work easier. Now, I would really
rather see the daisy app run on Apache hardware. Now, if Steven can
provide us with temporary hosting, as he did with the wiki (even if
temporary was rather long in duration there!), that might make this
system work well.
Regards, Upayavira
Re: Daisy as a docs editor (was Re: [CocoonInAction] Opening announce)
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@upaya.co.uk>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> On 20 Apr 2005, at 00:20, Ross Gardler wrote:
>
>>>> ok, you mean replacing the SVN repository and only use Daisy?
>>>
>>> The content for our site needs to be in SVN. That's how the ASF and
>>> board maintain their oversight, they know where to look for IP
>>> 'owned' by Apache. If we start storing it elsewhere, we remove the
>>> ability for Apache members to know where ASF content is.
>>
>>
>> OK
>
>
> I don't know of any "regulation" in this perspective, other than that
> PMCs are required to provide oversight for the projects they're
> managing, and that ideally, this should be done using "familiar" tools
> like mailing lists & SVN.
Yup.
> Given the abundance of tools for managing website content, I think the
> only remaining common denominator is: the de-facto standard "site
> publishing protocol" is committing a bunch of HTML files into an SVN repo.
Well, there's either committing source documents + tools and notes on
building, or committing the HTML files. Either can work, even with a
wide range of tools.
> There's a difference between storing site content in SVN, and how you
> manage site sources. I'm not advocating one scenario or another, but as
> long as the sources are properly oversighted due to mailing lists
> notifications, I reckon the requiredness of SVN is only because that's
> the common denominator in case of calamities: when site sources are
> stored in SVN, people can easily resurrect a site in case servers are
> swapped around. If the SVN repo isn't wedged, of course. ;)
See, I can't give a clear explanation of why SVN is required in this
picture, it just feels to me that it is. You're right that mailing list
notifications are an important part of the picture too.
Personally, I would prefer it that source content goes into SVN, rather
than HTML, as the source is more useful long-term. However, so long as
_something_ is there, I'm happy!
Regards, Upayavira
Re: Daisy as a docs editor (was Re: [CocoonInAction] Opening announce)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Apr 2005, at 00:20, Ross Gardler wrote:
>>> ok, you mean replacing the SVN repository and only use Daisy?
>> The content for our site needs to be in SVN. That's how the ASF and
>> board maintain their oversight, they know where to look for IP
>> 'owned' by Apache. If we start storing it elsewhere, we remove the
>> ability for Apache members to know where ASF content is.
>
> OK
I don't know of any "regulation" in this perspective, other than that
PMCs are required to provide oversight for the projects they're
managing, and that ideally, this should be done using "familiar" tools
like mailing lists & SVN.
Given the abundance of tools for managing website content, I think the
only remaining common denominator is: the de-facto standard "site
publishing protocol" is committing a bunch of HTML files into an SVN
repo.
There's a difference between storing site content in SVN, and how you
manage site sources. I'm not advocating one scenario or another, but as
long as the sources are properly oversighted due to mailing lists
notifications, I reckon the requiredness of SVN is only because that's
the common denominator in case of calamities: when site sources are
stored in SVN, people can easily resurrect a site in case servers are
swapped around. If the SVN repo isn't wedged, of course. ;)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: Daisy as a docs editor (was Re: [CocoonInAction] Opening announce)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Upayavira wrote:
> Reinhard Poetz wrote:
>
>> Ross Gardler wrote:
>>
>>>> One question: How are approved documents saved again in the SVN
>>>> repository?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Right now, they are not. However, it is my intention to create such a
>>> link at some point in the future, but there needs to be some thought
>>> about how this will happen, or even if it needs to since the daisy
>>> repository is, itself version controlled.
>>
>>
>>
>> ok, you mean replacing the SVN repository and only use Daisy?
>
>
> The content for our site needs to be in SVN. That's how the ASF and
> board maintain their oversight, they know where to look for IP 'owned'
> by Apache. If we start storing it elsewhere, we remove the ability for
> Apache members to know where ASF content is.
OK
> Having said that, there's nothing to stop us using Daisy to maintain the
> content, and then having some kind of 'hook' to get the edited content
> back into ASF SVN. How that would work, I don't know, but I'm sure it
> can be done, somehow!
I'll get the basic plugin working and then open a discussion about how
to hook into SVN.
Ross
Re: Daisy as a docs editor (was Re: [CocoonInAction] Opening announce)
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@upaya.co.uk>.
Reinhard Poetz wrote:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
>
>>> One question: How are approved documents saved again in the SVN
>>> repository?
>>
>>
>>
>> Right now, they are not. However, it is my intention to create such a
>> link at some point in the future, but there needs to be some thought
>> about how this will happen, or even if it needs to since the daisy
>> repository is, itself version controlled.
>
>
> ok, you mean replacing the SVN repository and only use Daisy?
The content for our site needs to be in SVN. That's how the ASF and
board maintain their oversight, they know where to look for IP 'owned'
by Apache. If we start storing it elsewhere, we remove the ability for
Apache members to know where ASF content is.
Having said that, there's nothing to stop us using Daisy to maintain the
content, and then having some kind of 'hook' to get the edited content
back into ASF SVN. How that would work, I don't know, but I'm sure it
can be done, somehow!
Regards, Upayavira
Re: Daisy as a docs editor (was Re: [CocoonInAction] Opening announce)
Posted by Reinhard Poetz <re...@apache.org>.
Ross Gardler wrote:
>> One question: How are approved documents saved again in the SVN
>> repository?
>
>
> Right now, they are not. However, it is my intention to create such a
> link at some point in the future, but there needs to be some thought
> about how this will happen, or even if it needs to since the daisy
> repository is, itself version controlled.
ok, you mean replacing the SVN repository and only use Daisy?
--
Reinhard Pötz Independent Consultant, Trainer & (IT)-Coach
{Software Engineering, Open Source, Web Applications, Apache Cocoon}
web(log): http://www.poetz.cc
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Daisy as a docs editor (was Re: [CocoonInAction] Opening announce)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Reinhard Poetz wrote:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
>
...
>>
>> Steven Noels wrote:
>>
>>> On 15 Apr 2005, at 00:09, Linden H van der (MI) wrote:
>>>
>>>> If someone would offer a Cocoon hosting or Daisy hosting for the
>>>> project, I personnaly be happy to move the content there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Stay tuned.
>>
>>
>>
>> Interesting, that is my response too.
>>
...
>> I am using Daisy internally and am building a plugin for Forrest that
>> allows users to include Daisy pages in their Forrest sites. The
>> current status of the plugin is that it includes the text of documents
>> from multiple repositories. It needs some URL rewriting to make things
>> like images work. I will commit what I have to the Forrest whiteboard
>> area in case anyone wants to have a play.
[Note the code is now in the Forrest whiteboard]
...
>
>
> :-) I like what I read here!
> One question: How are approved documents saved again in the SVN repository?
Right now, they are not. However, it is my intention to create such a
link at some point in the future, but there needs to be some thought
about how this will happen, or even if it needs to since the daisy
repository is, itself version controlled.
Ross
Re: Daisy as a docs editor (was Re: [CocoonInAction] Opening announce)
Posted by Reinhard Poetz <re...@apache.org>.
Ross Gardler wrote:
> [Cross posted to Forrest-Dev for obvious reasons]
>
> Steven Noels wrote:
>
>> On 15 Apr 2005, at 00:09, Linden H van der (MI) wrote:
>>
>>> If someone would offer a Cocoon hosting or Daisy hosting for the
>>> project, I personnaly be happy to move the content there.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stay tuned.
>
>
> Interesting, that is my response too.
>
> I'm about to go away for nearly a week so cannot participate in any
> discussion. However, since Steven clearly has some plans in this area I
> may as well mention my own - which I hope will be compatible.
>
> I am using Daisy internally and am building a plugin for Forrest that
> allows users to include Daisy pages in their Forrest sites. The current
> status of the plugin is that it includes the text of documents from
> multiple repositories. It needs some URL rewriting to make things like
> images work. I will commit what I have to the Forrest whiteboard area in
> case anyone wants to have a play. I intend to finish this after Forrest
> has released 0.7 (we're working on the final leg of that release right
> now).
>
> Why is this significant?
>
> If Steven is going to be able to source/offer Cocoon hosting, with a
> Daisy Wiki then we get some pretty powerful options, that compliment the
> proposal at
> http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/CocoonDocumentationSystemSUMMARY very well:
>
> Daisy Wiki is used as the document creation/editing tool. Daisy provides
> a basic edit/review/publish workflow so quality control remains the
> domain of committers.
>
> Forrest is used to generate the site, but rather than having a separate
> repository via SVN it works directly with the Daisy repository using the
> new plugin. The plugin can be set to always retrieve the current live
> page in the daisy repository, i.e. the one that has been approved for
> publication.
>
> This means that the Daisy Wiki will make the alpha docs available,
> whilst the cocoon site will show the published docs.
>
> A further benefit of this two phased publication approach is that we can
> avoid the unstructured navigation of an evolving wiki site. The idea of
> the Forrest plugin is that you can have a separate site definition from
> that defined in the daisy repository. Consequently the cocoon site can
> ignore internal documents (such as the one above about the documentation
> system) and instead focus on docs interested to users and potential users.
>
> It would also be possible to have a separate site organisation for
> developers, marketeers, users, committers etc. etc. All documents would
> come from the same central repository, we just maintain a different
> forrest site.xml file for each of the sites.
>
> Note - there would have to be some work to handle links from pages that
> are in Daisy, but not yet published on the main site. I haven't thought
> about how to handle those yet, perhaps point them at a holding page
> explaining the document is an alpha document, then providing a link to
> the daisy wiki.
>
> Anyway, I'll catch up on any discussion when I come back, or I'll just
> let you know when the plugin is complete.
:-) I like what I read here!
One question: How are approved documents saved again in the SVN repository?
--
Reinhard Pötz Independent Consultant, Trainer & (IT)-Coach
{Software Engineering, Open Source, Web Applications, Apache Cocoon}
web(log): http://www.poetz.cc
--------------------------------------------------------------------