You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> on 2014/08/11 02:09:34 UTC
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Hi!
Sorry for the delay -- OSCON and then a vacation (that was long
promised to my family but never delivered) derailed my legislative
agenda at IPMC ;-)
Attached is the proposed patch to the Incubator website detailing
the policy.
Please comment.
Thanks,
Roman.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 11:47 PM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 5:16 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Jul 12, 2014 at 4:15 AM, Christian Grobmeier
>> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 12 Jul 2014, at 8:05, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
>> >> That's actually the part of the thread that I have a lot of interest in.
>> >> Is there any reason not to use attic for hibernated podlings?
>> >
>> > I am not sure if there is a real reason, but maybe its because the attic
>> > currently contains only "real" ASF projects where all legal things were
>> > sorted out.
>> >
>> > With a podling coming in this might not be the case. We would need to
>> > check back with the Attic people if they can handle this.
>> >
>> > Otherwise I don't see a reason why we shouldn't use the attic, imho
>> > its the reason why its there.
>>
>> Quick question: who's in charge of saying 'yay' or 'nay' to Incubator
>> projects coming to the Attic?
>>
>> > Roman, would you mind to create an update patch and send it around
>> > here for some kind of discussing/voting? Then we would see how people
>> feel.
>> > I think this thread is already to big to get the right attention.
>>
>> Will do shortly. Btw, I presume you're talking about the patch
>> to the Incubator web pages documenting the policy, right?
>>
>> At least that's what I'm going to patch and send for a VOTE
>>
>>
>>
> What happpened to you agreeing to try it with a few of the old podlings
> first?
>
> ...ant
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Konstantin Boudnik <co...@apache.org>.
It makes sense. And it also seems to be a decent compilation of the points
agreed in the earlier and lengthy discussion on the topic.
Cos
On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 05:22PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> Seems like attachments are eaten away by general@
> Including the patch bellow
>
> Index: content/guides/retirement.xml
> ===================================================================
> --- content/guides/retirement.xml (revision 1617182)
> +++ content/guides/retirement.xml (working copy)
> @@ -64,6 +64,7 @@
> <li>If the PPMC unanimously recommends retirement, it gets retired.
> No need for a VOTE, just notify the IPMC, leave for 72 hours minimum
> and retire it.</li>
> <li>If the mentors say it should be retired but the PPMC does not
> unanimously agree then the podling should seek to recruit new mentors.
> No need to VOTE, just get on with it.</li>
> <li>If there insufficient mentors willing to continue working with
> the project then the IPMC has a problem to address on a case by case
> basis. The shepherd role ensures that these cases are spotted during
> the reporting process. If necessary a [DISCUSS] thread can be started
> and a sensible plan is developed (which may include a VOTE to retire,
> at this point there should be no -1's as a -1 needs to be backed by a
> willingness to act and thus this should have been surfaced in case 2)
> above.</li>
> + <li>If the project has not had a release for more than a year this
> fact will get flagged by the Incubator report and the PPMC will be
> expected to get notified (either by one of the mentors or an IPMC
> member). The initial discussion with the community is expected to
> uncover and start addressing the underlying issues preventing the
> project from producing releases. At this point the project is expected
> to be put on a monthly reporting schedule and the next month's report
> is expected to articulate the steps and expected time frame to get to
> the release. In case of a clear lack of progress for straight three
> months the [VOTE] thread on potential retirement is expected to be
> started in IPMC.</li>
> </ol>
> <p>
> Note, this is exactly what happens with board oversight of TLPs,
> Index: content/incubation/Process_Description.xml
> ===================================================================
> --- content/incubation/Process_Description.xml (revision 1617182)
> +++ content/incubation/Process_Description.xml (working copy)
> @@ -34,7 +34,7 @@
> <li><a href="#Establishment">Establishment</a></li>
> <li><a href="#Acceptance">Acceptance</a></li>
> <li><a href="#Review">Review</a></li>
> - <li><a href="#Termination">Termination</a></li>
> + <li><a href="#TerminationRetirement">Termination
> or Retirement</a></li>
> <li><a href="#Continuation">Continuation</a></li>
> <li><a href="#Graduation">Graduation</a></li>
> </ul>
> @@ -206,9 +206,12 @@
> their consideration.
> </p>
> </section>
> - <section id="Termination">
> - <title>Termination</title>
> - <p>If you receive a recommendation for termination then you have a
> + <section id="TerminationRetirement">
> + <title>Termination or Retirement</title>
> + <p>There are two ways for a project to cease incubation: Termination
> +or Retirement.
> +
> +If you receive a recommendation for termination then you have a
> problem. Chances are that there are either legal or structural
> problems with your project that in the opinion of the Incubator PMC
> are not resolvable within a reasonable time frame. A termination
> @@ -217,6 +220,23 @@
> Directors and/or your Sponsor. You should be aware that several
> Members of the Board are also Members of the Incubator PMC and as
> such, an appeal is unlikely to be successful.
> +
> +Retirement is typically an internal decisions by PPMC. A retired project
> +is a project which has been closed down by the PPMC or by the IPMC for
> +various reasons. It is not longer developed at the Apache Incubator and
> +does not have any other duties.
> +
> +Retirement can also be suggested by IPMC on the grounds of lack
> +of releases for more than a year. However, since unlike termination,
> +retirement is a voluntary process, the suggestion will have to be
> +discussed and voted upon.
> +
> +It's important to view this process as being the retirement of the podling
> +community, not the code. It should not be implied that the code is not for
> +use - just that it has no community. The source code of a retired project
> +is available in ASF repository, when the copyright requirements are fullfilled.
> +This is indicated through the incubator status page. For more details on
> +Retirement please see our <strong><a
> href="../guides/retirement.html">Guide to Retirement</a></strong>
> </p>
> </section>
> <section id="Continuation">
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
Hi!
I've committed the first cut and updated the website. I'm also
adding a special section to the incubator report calling
out projects where we would require a readout from the
mentors.
I would really appreciate if others can help with making
the docs crisper, etc.
Thanks,
Roman.
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11 Aug 2014, at 10:14, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>
>> With this in mind, I would remove almost everything from the "What is
>> retirement" section and keep just
>>
>> ****
>> A retired project is a project which has been closed down for various
>> reasons, instead of graduating as an Apache project. It is no longer
>> developed in the Apache Incubator and does not have any other duties.
>>
>> The project's code might stay available on Apache servers, if all the
>> required IP clearance requirements have been met.
>>
>> Retirement is a decision of the Incubator PMC, which usually delegates
>> it to the incubating project's mentors. The opinion of the incubating
>> project's community should of course be taken into account, but in the
>> end it's the Incubator PMC which makes the decision.
>> ****
>
>
> Interesting and I think this is really good (writes a guy who discussed the
> rules a lot).
>
> The problem we wanted to solve (i think) was: how can we keep our incubator
> list
> clean and be pro-active when it comes to housekeeping?
>
> If the IPMC would look at the reporting podlings each month and check if
> retirement is needed, then the above phrase might make perfect sense.
>
> Some might consider it "unfair" to be retired. In example, some projects as
> Wave look inactive but there is some life left. Retire or not? It's
> subjective.
> There is a good chance we keep some long-term running projects, but on the
> other hand...
> what would it matter?
>
> That being said, I would love if the other docs would get such an haircut as
> well.
>
> Cheers,
> Christian
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> And also keep the "steps to retirement" section.
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>
> ---
> http://www.grobmeier.de
> The Zen Programmer: http://bit.ly/12lC6DL
> @grobmeier
> GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On 11 Aug 2014, at 10:14, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> With this in mind, I would remove almost everything from the "What is
> retirement" section and keep just
>
> ****
> A retired project is a project which has been closed down for various
> reasons, instead of graduating as an Apache project. It is no longer
> developed in the Apache Incubator and does not have any other duties.
>
> The project's code might stay available on Apache servers, if all the
> required IP clearance requirements have been met.
>
> Retirement is a decision of the Incubator PMC, which usually delegates
> it to the incubating project's mentors. The opinion of the incubating
> project's community should of course be taken into account, but in the
> end it's the Incubator PMC which makes the decision.
> ****
Interesting and I think this is really good (writes a guy who discussed
the rules a lot).
The problem we wanted to solve (i think) was: how can we keep our
incubator list
clean and be pro-active when it comes to housekeeping?
If the IPMC would look at the reporting podlings each month and check if
retirement is needed, then the above phrase might make perfect sense.
Some might consider it "unfair" to be retired. In example, some projects
as
Wave look inactive but there is some life left. Retire or not? It's
subjective.
There is a good chance we keep some long-term running projects, but on
the other hand...
what would it matter?
That being said, I would love if the other docs would get such an
haircut as well.
Cheers,
Christian
>
> And also keep the "steps to retirement" section.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
---
http://www.grobmeier.de
The Zen Programmer: http://bit.ly/12lC6DL
@grobmeier
GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On 12 August 2014 09:38, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> > ... * since I haven't seen much of complaining, can I please commit my
> > proposed stuff and then we can pile additional edits on top of
> that?...
>
> Sure, my complaining is more a general issue about incubator.apache.org
>
> > * re-reading those sections made me realize that we are making a
> > distinction between two types of non-graduation: termination and
> > retirement. The way I read it, with termination there's no code
> left.
> > With retirement code is still available. Am I correct?
>
> that's too complicated, I would scratch it ;-)
>
> How many podlings retire per year? Like one or two maybe - keep it simple.
>
+1. and dont forget its projects leaving incubator, imho they know how we
work, so simple should really do it.
rgds
jan I
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> ... * since I haven't seen much of complaining, can I please commit my
> proposed stuff and then we can pile additional edits on top of that?...
Sure, my complaining is more a general issue about incubator.apache.org
> * re-reading those sections made me realize that we are making a
> distinction between two types of non-graduation: termination and
> retirement. The way I read it, with termination there's no code left.
> With retirement code is still available. Am I correct?
that's too complicated, I would scratch it ;-)
How many podlings retire per year? Like one or two maybe - keep it simple.
-Bertrand
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 8:08 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 1:14 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:22 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >> ...Including the patch below...
> >
> > Sorry to come in late but I had a look at [1] and it's way too
> > complicated IMO, and I don't think the proposed patch helps with that.
> >
> > In general http://incubator.apache.org/ is way too verbose and hard to
> > maintain - removing everything that is not essential would help IMO.
> >
> > With this in mind, I would remove almost everything from the "What is
> > retirement" section and keep just
> >
> > ****
> > A retired project is a project which has been closed down for various
> > reasons, instead of graduating as an Apache project. It is no longer
> > developed in the Apache Incubator and does not have any other duties.
> >
> > The project's code might stay available on Apache servers, if all the
> > required IP clearance requirements have been met.
> >
> > Retirement is a decision of the Incubator PMC, which usually delegates
> > it to the incubating project's mentors. The opinion of the incubating
> > project's community should of course be taken into account, but in the
> > end it's the Incubator PMC which makes the decision.
> > ****
> >
> > And also keep the "steps to retirement" section.
>
> I totally agree with the section being overly complex to parse. I am,
> however,
> a little bit afraid of such a drastic edit ;-) Two points on that:
> * since I haven't seen much of complaining, can I please commit my
> proposed stuff and then we can pile additional edits on top of that?
> * re-reading those sections made me realize that we are making a
> distinction between two types of non-graduation: termination and
> retirement. The way I read it, with termination there's no code left.
> With retirement code is still available. Am I correct?
>
>
I also feel this is adding unnecessary complexity and would prefer the
edits simplify rather than add more things. If you're really insisting on
adding some of this text would you at least not add the following bit for
now:
" At this point the project is expected
to be put on a monthly reporting schedule and the next month's report
is expected to articulate the steps and expected time frame to get to
the release. In case of a clear lack of progress for straight three
months the [VOTE] thread on potential retirement is expected to be
started in IPMC."
...ant
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 1:14 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:22 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ...Including the patch below...
>
> Sorry to come in late but I had a look at [1] and it's way too
> complicated IMO, and I don't think the proposed patch helps with that.
>
> In general http://incubator.apache.org/ is way too verbose and hard to
> maintain - removing everything that is not essential would help IMO.
>
> With this in mind, I would remove almost everything from the "What is
> retirement" section and keep just
>
> ****
> A retired project is a project which has been closed down for various
> reasons, instead of graduating as an Apache project. It is no longer
> developed in the Apache Incubator and does not have any other duties.
>
> The project's code might stay available on Apache servers, if all the
> required IP clearance requirements have been met.
>
> Retirement is a decision of the Incubator PMC, which usually delegates
> it to the incubating project's mentors. The opinion of the incubating
> project's community should of course be taken into account, but in the
> end it's the Incubator PMC which makes the decision.
> ****
>
> And also keep the "steps to retirement" section.
I totally agree with the section being overly complex to parse. I am, however,
a little bit afraid of such a drastic edit ;-) Two points on that:
* since I haven't seen much of complaining, can I please commit my
proposed stuff and then we can pile additional edits on top of that?
* re-reading those sections made me realize that we are making a
distinction between two types of non-graduation: termination and
retirement. The way I read it, with termination there's no code left.
With retirement code is still available. Am I correct?
Thanks,
Roman.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:22 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...Including the patch below...
Sorry to come in late but I had a look at [1] and it's way too
complicated IMO, and I don't think the proposed patch helps with that.
In general http://incubator.apache.org/ is way too verbose and hard to
maintain - removing everything that is not essential would help IMO.
With this in mind, I would remove almost everything from the "What is
retirement" section and keep just
****
A retired project is a project which has been closed down for various
reasons, instead of graduating as an Apache project. It is no longer
developed in the Apache Incubator and does not have any other duties.
The project's code might stay available on Apache servers, if all the
required IP clearance requirements have been met.
Retirement is a decision of the Incubator PMC, which usually delegates
it to the incubating project's mentors. The opinion of the incubating
project's community should of course be taken into account, but in the
end it's the Incubator PMC which makes the decision.
****
And also keep the "steps to retirement" section.
-Bertrand
[1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
Seems like attachments are eaten away by general@
Including the patch bellow
Index: content/guides/retirement.xml
===================================================================
--- content/guides/retirement.xml (revision 1617182)
+++ content/guides/retirement.xml (working copy)
@@ -64,6 +64,7 @@
<li>If the PPMC unanimously recommends retirement, it gets retired.
No need for a VOTE, just notify the IPMC, leave for 72 hours minimum
and retire it.</li>
<li>If the mentors say it should be retired but the PPMC does not
unanimously agree then the podling should seek to recruit new mentors.
No need to VOTE, just get on with it.</li>
<li>If there insufficient mentors willing to continue working with
the project then the IPMC has a problem to address on a case by case
basis. The shepherd role ensures that these cases are spotted during
the reporting process. If necessary a [DISCUSS] thread can be started
and a sensible plan is developed (which may include a VOTE to retire,
at this point there should be no -1's as a -1 needs to be backed by a
willingness to act and thus this should have been surfaced in case 2)
above.</li>
+ <li>If the project has not had a release for more than a year this
fact will get flagged by the Incubator report and the PPMC will be
expected to get notified (either by one of the mentors or an IPMC
member). The initial discussion with the community is expected to
uncover and start addressing the underlying issues preventing the
project from producing releases. At this point the project is expected
to be put on a monthly reporting schedule and the next month's report
is expected to articulate the steps and expected time frame to get to
the release. In case of a clear lack of progress for straight three
months the [VOTE] thread on potential retirement is expected to be
started in IPMC.</li>
</ol>
<p>
Note, this is exactly what happens with board oversight of TLPs,
Index: content/incubation/Process_Description.xml
===================================================================
--- content/incubation/Process_Description.xml (revision 1617182)
+++ content/incubation/Process_Description.xml (working copy)
@@ -34,7 +34,7 @@
<li><a href="#Establishment">Establishment</a></li>
<li><a href="#Acceptance">Acceptance</a></li>
<li><a href="#Review">Review</a></li>
- <li><a href="#Termination">Termination</a></li>
+ <li><a href="#TerminationRetirement">Termination
or Retirement</a></li>
<li><a href="#Continuation">Continuation</a></li>
<li><a href="#Graduation">Graduation</a></li>
</ul>
@@ -206,9 +206,12 @@
their consideration.
</p>
</section>
- <section id="Termination">
- <title>Termination</title>
- <p>If you receive a recommendation for termination then you have a
+ <section id="TerminationRetirement">
+ <title>Termination or Retirement</title>
+ <p>There are two ways for a project to cease incubation: Termination
+or Retirement.
+
+If you receive a recommendation for termination then you have a
problem. Chances are that there are either legal or structural
problems with your project that in the opinion of the Incubator PMC
are not resolvable within a reasonable time frame. A termination
@@ -217,6 +220,23 @@
Directors and/or your Sponsor. You should be aware that several
Members of the Board are also Members of the Incubator PMC and as
such, an appeal is unlikely to be successful.
+
+Retirement is typically an internal decisions by PPMC. A retired project
+is a project which has been closed down by the PPMC or by the IPMC for
+various reasons. It is not longer developed at the Apache Incubator and
+does not have any other duties.
+
+Retirement can also be suggested by IPMC on the grounds of lack
+of releases for more than a year. However, since unlike termination,
+retirement is a voluntary process, the suggestion will have to be
+discussed and voted upon.
+
+It's important to view this process as being the retirement of the podling
+community, not the code. It should not be implied that the code is not for
+use - just that it has no community. The source code of a retired project
+is available in ASF repository, when the copyright requirements are fullfilled.
+This is indicated through the incubator status page. For more details on
+Retirement please see our <strong><a
href="../guides/retirement.html">Guide to Retirement</a></strong>
</p>
</section>
<section id="Continuation">
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org