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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com> on 2007/05/15 00:26:10 UTC
making project decisions with a small number of PMC members
Hi,
Quick question (I hope). I was thinking about what will happen if the
NMaven podling would like to add a committer, make a release, etc.
Would votes by Maven PMC members (As the sponsoring project) be
considered binding in this case, or should we have IPMC members?
We currently only have 2 IPMC members on the project, so I was going
to ask for an additional mentor anyway, but I feel like the
appropriate people to be casting votes should be Maven PMC folk.
Thoughts?
Cheers,
Brett
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Re: making project decisions with a small number of PMC members
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
If I am not mistaken there is no relationship with the sponsoring PMC, which in my view needs to
change (as you indirectly point out).
There are a couple of things :
1) The incubated project doesn't even need to know about the sponsoring project
2) The sponsoring project doesn't even have to know about the project being sponsored (even as VP I
was at one point unaware that Jakarta was sponsoring a project in the Incubator)
3) A big bang integration after a project ends up in the sponsoring project, isn't a good start and
there probable needs to be a closer defined relationship between the two. Should people on the IPMC
also be on the sponsoring PMC ? (assuming the PMC != committers)
4) To give an example : is Brett (in his role of being a mentor) representing the Maven PMC or on a
"personal" basis and is there or should there be a difference between the 2 ?
5) What's the use of having a vote on sponsoring a project in the Incubator if no one is
volunteering to represent the sponsoring project ?
Sorry for hijacking your question :)
Lot's of questions, no time for answers (yet) :)
Mvgr,
Martin
Brett Porter wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Quick question (I hope). I was thinking about what will happen if the
> NMaven podling would like to add a committer, make a release, etc.
>
> Would votes by Maven PMC members (As the sponsoring project) be
> considered binding in this case, or should we have IPMC members?
>
> We currently only have 2 IPMC members on the project, so I was going
> to ask for an additional mentor anyway, but I feel like the
> appropriate people to be casting votes should be Maven PMC folk.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Cheers,
> Brett
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>
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Re: making project decisions with a small number of PMC members
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Maven PMC is sponsoring, so i feel this is the right thing to do as well.
-- dims
On 5/14/07, Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Quick question (I hope). I was thinking about what will happen if the
> NMaven podling would like to add a committer, make a release, etc.
>
> Would votes by Maven PMC members (As the sponsoring project) be
> considered binding in this case, or should we have IPMC members?
>
> We currently only have 2 IPMC members on the project, so I was going
> to ask for an additional mentor anyway, but I feel like the
> appropriate people to be casting votes should be Maven PMC folk.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Cheers,
> Brett
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
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Re: making project decisions with a small number of PMC members
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
Are there some Maven PMC members that could join the IPMC? Maven by
it's very nature seem to bring in a lot of projects so in the long
run I think it will be in your collective best interestes to get more
involved with the IPMC.
-dain
On May 15, 2007, at 9:07 AM, Brett Porter wrote:
> Thanks folks. What Leo and Craig said is what I expected, though I was
> a bit concerned about finding the IPMC people to ratify such
> decisions. I'll still look for more mentors.
>
> - Brett
>
> On 15/05/07, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
>> Hi Brett,
>>
>> +1 to most of what Leo says.
>>
>> I'd point out that the main purpose of the PPMC is to get the podling
>> to the point of making decisions "the Apache Way" and the IPMC then
>> ratifies the decisions. This model should allow the decisions to be
>> made by the people who know and care the most, while preserving the
>> accountability that's legally required.
>>
>> So if you properly vote in the PPMC to accept a new committer, or
>> vote on a new release, following the process in the incubator policy
>> and guides, the IPMC will likely approve pretty quickly any decisions
>> that are made. If you're having difficulty getting the binding IPMC
>> votes after the PPMC votes, then this is an issue that needs to be
>> addressed.
>>
>> Good luck,
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On May 15, 2007, at 1:16 AM, Leo Simons wrote:
>>
>> > On May 15, 2007, at 12:26 AM, Brett Porter wrote:
>> >> Quick question (I hope). I was thinking about what will happen
>> if the
>> >> NMaven podling would like to add a committer, make a release, etc.
>> >>
>> >> Would votes by Maven PMC members (As the sponsoring project) be
>> >> considered binding in this case, or should we have IPMC members?
>> >
>> > No the sponsoring PMC votes are not binding. It should be the IPMC.
>> >
>> >> We currently only have 2 IPMC members on the project, so I was
>> going
>> >> to ask for an additional mentor anyway, but I feel like the
>> >> appropriate people to be casting votes should be Maven PMC folk.
>> >>
>> >> Thoughts?
>> >
>> > I share your feeling. I'm afraid it is not so easy to change.
>> >
>> > * ASF is structured to have a PMC (or Officer) responsible and
>> > accontable for most things
>> > * ASF is not structured for multiple PMCs or Officers to share
>> > responsibility
>> >
>> > Changing this is a lot of work (for example it screws up the
>> > workflow for infrastructure since it becomes much harder to know if
>> > a request came with the right authority), so I've always shunned
>> > away from it.
>> >
>> > As to which PMC *should* be responsible for *what*, "it depends".
>> > We've seen projects were it was really needed for the Incubator PMC
>> > to take the responsibility for a TLP-sponsored podling, and then
>> > some projects where the IPMC was hardly ever needed at all.
>> >
>> > (aside: some of the original designs for the incubator introduced
>> > the "PPMC" that would consist of
>> > * incubator PMC
>> > * sponsoring PMC
>> > * all committers on the new project
>> > * all mentors of the project
>> > where the goal would sort-of be to have the committers make the
>> > actual decisions and then the IPMC and sponsoring PMC would
>> > reluctantly fill in the gaps. We had to move away from that because
>> > it broke the "clear accountability" chain; Secondly, a lot of
>> > sponsoring PMC members and IPMC members didn't want to be on that
>> > many mailing lists.
>> >
>> > So now we have a PPMC which is really just the committers on the
>> > project with their mentors, and it's supposedly no longer allowed
>> > to make any real decisions. Not so great a situation either.)
>> >
>> > /LSD
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >
>>
>> Craig Russell
>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/
>> jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: making project decisions with a small number of PMC members
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@gmail.com>.
Thanks folks. What Leo and Craig said is what I expected, though I was
a bit concerned about finding the IPMC people to ratify such
decisions. I'll still look for more mentors.
- Brett
On 15/05/07, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
> Hi Brett,
>
> +1 to most of what Leo says.
>
> I'd point out that the main purpose of the PPMC is to get the podling
> to the point of making decisions "the Apache Way" and the IPMC then
> ratifies the decisions. This model should allow the decisions to be
> made by the people who know and care the most, while preserving the
> accountability that's legally required.
>
> So if you properly vote in the PPMC to accept a new committer, or
> vote on a new release, following the process in the incubator policy
> and guides, the IPMC will likely approve pretty quickly any decisions
> that are made. If you're having difficulty getting the binding IPMC
> votes after the PPMC votes, then this is an issue that needs to be
> addressed.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Craig
>
> On May 15, 2007, at 1:16 AM, Leo Simons wrote:
>
> > On May 15, 2007, at 12:26 AM, Brett Porter wrote:
> >> Quick question (I hope). I was thinking about what will happen if the
> >> NMaven podling would like to add a committer, make a release, etc.
> >>
> >> Would votes by Maven PMC members (As the sponsoring project) be
> >> considered binding in this case, or should we have IPMC members?
> >
> > No the sponsoring PMC votes are not binding. It should be the IPMC.
> >
> >> We currently only have 2 IPMC members on the project, so I was going
> >> to ask for an additional mentor anyway, but I feel like the
> >> appropriate people to be casting votes should be Maven PMC folk.
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >
> > I share your feeling. I'm afraid it is not so easy to change.
> >
> > * ASF is structured to have a PMC (or Officer) responsible and
> > accontable for most things
> > * ASF is not structured for multiple PMCs or Officers to share
> > responsibility
> >
> > Changing this is a lot of work (for example it screws up the
> > workflow for infrastructure since it becomes much harder to know if
> > a request came with the right authority), so I've always shunned
> > away from it.
> >
> > As to which PMC *should* be responsible for *what*, "it depends".
> > We've seen projects were it was really needed for the Incubator PMC
> > to take the responsibility for a TLP-sponsored podling, and then
> > some projects where the IPMC was hardly ever needed at all.
> >
> > (aside: some of the original designs for the incubator introduced
> > the "PPMC" that would consist of
> > * incubator PMC
> > * sponsoring PMC
> > * all committers on the new project
> > * all mentors of the project
> > where the goal would sort-of be to have the committers make the
> > actual decisions and then the IPMC and sponsoring PMC would
> > reluctantly fill in the gaps. We had to move away from that because
> > it broke the "clear accountability" chain; Secondly, a lot of
> > sponsoring PMC members and IPMC members didn't want to be on that
> > many mailing lists.
> >
> > So now we have a PPMC which is really just the committers on the
> > project with their mentors, and it's supposedly no longer allowed
> > to make any real decisions. Not so great a situation either.)
> >
> > /LSD
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
> Craig Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
>
>
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Re: making project decisions with a small number of PMC members
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Brett,
+1 to most of what Leo says.
I'd point out that the main purpose of the PPMC is to get the podling
to the point of making decisions "the Apache Way" and the IPMC then
ratifies the decisions. This model should allow the decisions to be
made by the people who know and care the most, while preserving the
accountability that's legally required.
So if you properly vote in the PPMC to accept a new committer, or
vote on a new release, following the process in the incubator policy
and guides, the IPMC will likely approve pretty quickly any decisions
that are made. If you're having difficulty getting the binding IPMC
votes after the PPMC votes, then this is an issue that needs to be
addressed.
Good luck,
Craig
On May 15, 2007, at 1:16 AM, Leo Simons wrote:
> On May 15, 2007, at 12:26 AM, Brett Porter wrote:
>> Quick question (I hope). I was thinking about what will happen if the
>> NMaven podling would like to add a committer, make a release, etc.
>>
>> Would votes by Maven PMC members (As the sponsoring project) be
>> considered binding in this case, or should we have IPMC members?
>
> No the sponsoring PMC votes are not binding. It should be the IPMC.
>
>> We currently only have 2 IPMC members on the project, so I was going
>> to ask for an additional mentor anyway, but I feel like the
>> appropriate people to be casting votes should be Maven PMC folk.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>
> I share your feeling. I'm afraid it is not so easy to change.
>
> * ASF is structured to have a PMC (or Officer) responsible and
> accontable for most things
> * ASF is not structured for multiple PMCs or Officers to share
> responsibility
>
> Changing this is a lot of work (for example it screws up the
> workflow for infrastructure since it becomes much harder to know if
> a request came with the right authority), so I've always shunned
> away from it.
>
> As to which PMC *should* be responsible for *what*, "it depends".
> We've seen projects were it was really needed for the Incubator PMC
> to take the responsibility for a TLP-sponsored podling, and then
> some projects where the IPMC was hardly ever needed at all.
>
> (aside: some of the original designs for the incubator introduced
> the "PPMC" that would consist of
> * incubator PMC
> * sponsoring PMC
> * all committers on the new project
> * all mentors of the project
> where the goal would sort-of be to have the committers make the
> actual decisions and then the IPMC and sponsoring PMC would
> reluctantly fill in the gaps. We had to move away from that because
> it broke the "clear accountability" chain; Secondly, a lot of
> sponsoring PMC members and IPMC members didn't want to be on that
> many mailing lists.
>
> So now we have a PPMC which is really just the committers on the
> project with their mentors, and it's supposedly no longer allowed
> to make any real decisions. Not so great a situation either.)
>
> /LSD
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: making project decisions with a small number of PMC members
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On May 15, 2007, at 12:26 AM, Brett Porter wrote:
> Quick question (I hope). I was thinking about what will happen if the
> NMaven podling would like to add a committer, make a release, etc.
>
> Would votes by Maven PMC members (As the sponsoring project) be
> considered binding in this case, or should we have IPMC members?
No the sponsoring PMC votes are not binding. It should be the IPMC.
> We currently only have 2 IPMC members on the project, so I was going
> to ask for an additional mentor anyway, but I feel like the
> appropriate people to be casting votes should be Maven PMC folk.
>
> Thoughts?
I share your feeling. I'm afraid it is not so easy to change.
* ASF is structured to have a PMC (or Officer) responsible and
accontable for most things
* ASF is not structured for multiple PMCs or Officers to share
responsibility
Changing this is a lot of work (for example it screws up the workflow
for infrastructure since it becomes much harder to know if a request
came with the right authority), so I've always shunned away from it.
As to which PMC *should* be responsible for *what*, "it depends".
We've seen projects were it was really needed for the Incubator PMC
to take the responsibility for a TLP-sponsored podling, and then some
projects where the IPMC was hardly ever needed at all.
(aside: some of the original designs for the incubator introduced the
"PPMC" that would consist of
* incubator PMC
* sponsoring PMC
* all committers on the new project
* all mentors of the project
where the goal would sort-of be to have the committers make the
actual decisions and then the IPMC and sponsoring PMC would
reluctantly fill in the gaps. We had to move away from that because
it broke the "clear accountability" chain; Secondly, a lot of
sponsoring PMC members and IPMC members didn't want to be on that
many mailing lists.
So now we have a PPMC which is really just the committers on the
project with their mentors, and it's supposedly no longer allowed to
make any real decisions. Not so great a situation either.)
/LSD
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